The Ringer NBA Show - What Can the NBA Learn From Other Leagues Around the World About Returning in 2020? | The Mismatch

Episode Date: April 14, 2020

We discuss the successes and failures of the NBA’s H-O-R-S-E broadcast (2:30), before talking about Taiwan bringing basketball back with mannequins and cardboard cutouts in the stands as fans (12:25). Then, we jump back into the mailbag to answer a handful more of your questions (33:04). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode of The Mismatch on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by World Central Kitchen. Their relief team is working across America to safely distribute individually packaged fresh meals and communities that need support. They're now serving tens of thousands of meals daily in some of our biggest cities like New York and Los Angeles. And they're launching initiatives across America to deliver fresh, hot meals to hospitals and clinics fighting on the front lines while keeping local restaurants and business as well. You can directly help the heroes and hospitals and clinics who are fighting for us, and you can keep your local restaurants alive. Please go to the ringer.com slash WCK to donate. We're trying to raise $250,000. And if you have the means, it's an unbelievably great and useful way that helps our hospital heroes, emergency workers, and local restaurants.

Please give whatever you can. The money goes directly to World Central Kitchen, and it's a charitable donation. Once again, that's the ringer.com slash WCK. Welcome to the ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. Join me as he does every Tuesday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin Obama, Kevin O'Conert, Kevin O'Climber, aka Kevin O'Connorcercercer, Kevin O'Cadleyland, Kevin opinionated.

Kevin! How are you doing this morning, Chris? I can't imagine how wild that beard has to be. Well, you saw a picture recently, didn't you? I saw the last picture I. saw was a screen cap of a Zoom you were on in that in the song that Isaac Lee and Jason Gallagher put out yesterday. Ice to ice. I saw the and so I saw you in there. I saw and it looked I mean, it didn't look outrageous yet, but I am, I'm waiting for it to get full on just untenable.

I mean, it's getting longer for sure, but not untenable yet. We'll get to that point soon enough. I'm going full father John Misty. So we'll see what happens with this beard. And we'll see how long we're all self-quarantined as well. We have seen some basketball being broadcast. And we also have some news and notes that we're going to get to. And then we will answer some questions from the mailbag today on this show.

First things first on Friday, we talked about how horse was going to debut on ESPN on Sunday night. And we didn't know what to expect. We didn't know how it would come off on television. But there I am on Sunday night with it on. And sure enough, I had Kevin O'Connor to lean on in order to come up with an opinion. And now I am looking for it. And did you delete it?

I deleted it because it was incorrect. Oh, no. What I tweeted was, you know, well, first of all, the first part I stand by, like, horse stunk. It was boring to watch. But the second part, I said, how about, you know, having players talk over classic games? And I didn't realize that's already being done on NBA TV. I didn't realize that they had Trey Young talking about his 50-point game or that they're having our big boss, Bill Simmons, talk with Kevin McHale about game seven of the playoffs between the Celtics

and the bucks in 1986. I didn't realize that was being done. That's my fault probably for not looking at NBA's Twitter feed. But I'm also surprised it's not being more heavily promoted because that's what I feel like everybody responded with like, yeah, that's a no-brainer. Why aren't, why isn't that happening? We just saw it happen with the Masters with Tiger Woods talking about his comeback last year with Jim Nance.

And I'm surprised so few people, including me, didn't realize that was happening. So I didn't want to spread misinformation about that. but I stand by that it was boring. I didn't enjoy it. I appreciate that they're giving listeners, I'm giving viewers, you know, and NBA fans something to watch.

And I'm sure plenty of people did enjoy that. So I appreciate the effort during these complicated times. I just personally didn't really enjoy it. And I wish I could have. But I didn't like it. How about you, Chris? And I'm also curious to like, what did your son think about it too?

Because I feel like that might be more of the target audience. Well, I will tell you that on Thursday night is the next round of this horse competition. And I would say for me, and I will speak for my son. We have rarely look forward to something less than the horse competition on Thursday. Your son too, really. The quality is terrible. That's the problem. The problem is the quality was terrible.

There was a moment where I believe it was, who was it that made the shot? I can't even recall anymore, but they made the shot, and I could not tell if they made the shot or not. The video was so choppy that I didn't even know it went in. And that's the issue, right? The way it was, the way it was done. And it was a wonder, like you didn't know, how was this going to work out. And I know it's hard to put together. but I'm going to tell you, Kiv, like that was the issue with me is the way that the quality was.

And you're doing it on cell phones. You're trying to, you know, do it on Skype. However, you're doing it with the live video. And if that was a video that was on like YouTube, I wouldn't watch it. You know, that was the problem. It's choppy. It was hard to keep up with. There was the delay.

You know, poor Mark Jones is trying to broadcast it. He's like, uh, call the heads or tails on the count of three. Three, one, two, three. Well, you mentioned how you've been this long delay. You said you wouldn't have watched it on YouTube. The thing is, is Zach Levine versus Paul Pierce, which was the best of the four matchups on Sunday. That video has, as of recording, 600,000 views. And if you're curious about whether people are liking or disliking it, it has 8.6K likes, only 328 dislike.

So there are a lot of people that actually enjoyed it. They're just there just are despite the quality issues. Well, look, I'm like you. I appreciate the effort. It was just the quality issue. You know what I mean? That was it. That was it.

Like it was hard to keep up with with the quality of the video. And I get it where it, look, you got. It's hard. It's hard. Like there is no, you can't criticize somebody for trying this. considering we know what kind of state we're in right now. And that things are very, very difficult to try to put together. It was just, I found it hard to keep up with.

And in terms of watching it, I just wasn't entertained. I wasn't entertained by it. And here's the other problem. It was stretched out to two hours, right? So each matchup had a 30-minute block. When the videos on YouTube here, you can watch the whole thing in eight to nine minutes. And I think that the experience

as a viewer, I have not watched the YouTube clips of it, but I would imagine my enjoyment level would have been a lot higher watching it on YouTube than watching it over a two-hour broadcast on TV. Because that's chopped up. Sure. Yes. You're just seeing.

If you're watching, I could watch the YouTube video, but I wouldn't watch it if it was extended over a half an hour. Yeah. And I don't think other people would either. It looks like, like ESPN and the may have to make their money and fill that time slot. But I do wonder if maybe more people would watch on Thursday night if the first round had been put into an hour time slot instead of a two hour time slot. And look, we don't know. Who knows? It may not have even been worth it financially to

send each person participating an iPhone 11 or whatever phone has the highest quality camera and have someone record rather than broadcast on that second camera. So it could have been edited and post-production. We're getting like pre and post production. Who knows what type of conversations were had with the pros and cons of putting this product together. But it's just interesting the thing about. And I do wonder what could be different on Thursday? Because I don't know when this second round and third round were recorded. Is this happening early in the week after the first round aired?

I hope so. Did it already take place? Isn't that what you would do? Like, I mean, again, I'm not dead set against it. And there were some cool shots that were made. what I'm saying is and look let me just go ahead and say this it was on in my

house it's not like I flipped it off I wasn't paying attention you know as it went as it drug on but it was still on and so I'll watch anything and if you put it on on Thursday night I mean look I've been so bored I'll watch anything so

it'll probably be on but I would you know I would learn from that first week it doesn't matter if it's live or taped you'd watch anything, Chris. Even if I send you a video, you'd watch it. If you wanted me to make a list, in fact, I should at some point of like the top five to ten things that I have watched during the last two months that under no other

circumstances would I probably have watched. You would, it would be a pretty unbelievable in terms of the YouTube rabbit holes that I have fallen down. And in terms of like the shows that I've flipped through, whether it's on, you know, YouTube, Amazon, Netflix, whatever, Hulu, whatever it may be. I've watched all kinds of crap that I wouldn't normally watch. I think that I probably speak for all of us.

Well, how about some Brooke Lopez defensive highlights? I ain't watching that. That's for you. That's for you. Look, if I wanted to watch a guy stand in front of the basket, I can watch Hashimtha beat Yukon highlights. Oh, come on. A joke. What a joke.

That being said. You got to be kidding me. Same difference. But anyways, what I'm saying is I would edit it. Like, I mean, you can still have them play it live and then just do like the YouTube guy did. Obviously, that was entertaining to a lot of people in that kind of format. And so the problem is if you, you can still do all the shots like they can tape it as they're doing it. and then somebody just takes it to an editing bin,

and they give us the shots, and then it's your shot, and then it's your shot, right? That's complicated. What are you talking about? It's complicated. Because then you have to send a file. So what?

What are you talking about? It's ESPN. It's not you. I'm not sending the file to you to edit. That show that we watched the other night, right? That show, the Sunday night show. All right. Do that exact show.

except we're not watching that show. We're watching basically what the YouTube guy did. So when he air it on Thursday, I mean, you're taping it so you can go back and you can edit the thing. Just like us. Somebody's listening to this later today. Hopefully,

Bobby has edited out 90% of this conversation. Hopefully, this horse competition conversation goes from, what's my runtime right now? 11 minutes since I press record. 11 minutes since I press record. Entirely through long. I spent more time talking about it than I did paying attention to it.

All right. Let's get to the stories that have dropped since we last spoke. Brian Winhorse came out with a very interesting column. And this was about how the NBA is asking for any and all suggestions as to a plan of attack for, the ability to continue the season if they are given the go from health officials. And one of the ideas that has been submitted that is being bandied about is a 25-day run-up, meaning that players would be able to work out and individually work out for 11 days. And then for two weeks, which would constitute the other 14 of the 25 days,

you would be able to have a training camp of sorts. and you would get all of the players back together and they would be able to have a two-week run-up and then you are able to somehow continue or rather finish this NBA season. As we have said throughout this entire process, no one can know. They are going to try to,

they said May 1st was a date that they were going to discuss how they would be able to pull this off. And so obviously by May 1st, hopefully they will have a better idea of what the landscape looks like, how they would be able to pull it off. It seems a foregone conclusion that it would be without fans. But I am fascinated by the idea of, hey, we've got players able to use gyms workout for 11 days. And then for 14 days, we are able to monitor them, have a training camp that would lead up to a season. because I think you and I both know, as we've discussed many times in the past, the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen is for them to start back and then somebody have COVID-19

and then them have to shut the whole thing down again. And so it seems like 25 days would be a reasonable amount of time. And at least it's some sort of a plan that is being discussed right now. What did you think when you saw that? Sounds realistic. It sounds like something that. that is what's going to happen and have to happen across sports. And we'll see what happens after that.

I mean, you and I a couple weeks back had talked about how it's very possible that during this period of time, somebody does get it or like a number of players on a certain team do get it and community spread happens and they can't play the games. There's a possibility of that. So having a 25-day trial essentially to see how these testing, precautions work to see how social social distancing measures work to see if this bubble quote unquote bubble that they're going to build for the players and for executives for coaches for referees for you know attendance for hotel workers for everybody got to see if that's something

that can actually work before the games actually start being played um so we'll see what happens whenever that is able to happen if it's able to happen and let's hope it is man sports have resumed in some form in Taiwan and Mark Stein recently wrote an article about it as you read about sports resuming in Taiwan before I get to my favorite part. At least it was some sign that there are sports going on somewhere, right? Yeah. Did you see the fake people in the crowd? That's what I was going to bring up. They have cardboard cutouts, mannequins, and drum playing robots. in the stadium. Now, you and I have discussed,

how would you be able to pull this off without fans? I'm going to say that I would be so in favor of this. You have no idea. The amount of hilarity and the amount that I would laugh. And they have these fans that are dolled up in real hats and shirts. And then like some are pointing towards the field and others are holding signs over their heads. that are like tied together with zip ties over their heads. This is the baseball league that is going on in Taiwan.

But for those of you that didn't see this, the New York Post ran an article about it. The mannequins and the fake fans in the stands are absolutely unbelievable. They make me laugh so hard. And so there is nothing more I would love to see than LeBron James playing in front of a bunch of a mannichens in the stands. I'd like to see an arena full of them. Unbelievable. Something out of like a dystopian thriller or something like that.

Because, I mean, it does feel like we're in a movie right now. We might as well lean into it as much as we can with basketball. But yeah, I mean, really like it is funny, but it's also sort of just a sad reminder of the times we're in. that that is something that is being done to for players make it look like they're actually playing a professional sporting event. It's, it's sad. It's a sad reminder. And also, it could be a long time until we do have fans back in the seats. It could be a long time before that happens again until there's a vaccine or something else. But it might not be until next year that we're able to go to a game and sit side by side with, you know, your best friend

or your parents or whoever it might be. I look, I just, it's just a reminder to me, as funny as it is to see that I can't wait until that day comes until we can all be in a be at a game together. Oh, I can't either, but it is, look, this is problem solving, right? Do we want to do we just want to play with a bunch of, and I am, I'm saying, that's why I want to see an arena full of them. Oh, yeah. I want it every seat.

No, but I want like giant stuffed animals too. I want I want cheerleaders in her cardboard cutouts. The whole thing. Robots, everything. I want it all. Like, let's just get funny with it and have an attack. So that way it's not just a bunch of empty seats. You just fill the seats with all kinds of hilarious stuff.

Sure. And ultimately, though, like it's very possible that some of these games are going to be played in arenas without seats or without many seats at all. And I still like, and I would love to see this solution potentially explored. It may not be possible at all. But I still think it would be really, really dope if close friends and families of players, if they chose to be, you know, could be quarantined there with them. And those people could also be subject to testing to be with their families during this time. But also it could create an AAU style atmosphere.

with, you know, 100 to 200 people there at once. And like that is probably unrealistic. It is likely not going to happen because of the risks of adding more people to already. An incredibly difficult challenge ahead to have games being played. However, in theory, the idea of that is exciting to me to have a small arena with really, really tight people rooting for all these players. It would create quite an atmosphere. All right.

Let's get to some of the stories with COVID-19 and the coronavirus and how it has affected the basketball world. The first of which is last week after we spoke, the athletic dropped a story about how Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert's relationship is unrepairable. And then over the weekend, Rudy Gobert did a Instagram live chat with Taylor Rooks and said that he did talk to Donovan Mitchell. and that their relationship is far from perfect, but they both got the same goal, and that is if they aren't able to reserve basketball, they both have the same goal in mind, and that is to win the championship and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So when the story drops last week, I think we were all sitting there waiting for Donovan Mitchell to respond to it because this is, you know, I mean, serious stuff when a story comes out, and it is attributing your feet, your feelings to a situation. And it's saying this is how Donovan Mitchell feels. And here is what is going on with Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert and the jazz organization.

And sources say this. And sources say that. And then you're waiting for, right? Like if you write something about me and you were to say, Chris Vernon feels this way about Kevin O'Connor. And Chris Vernon's relationship with Kevin O'Connor is blank. and then it's everywhere and you and I am active on social media and people are of course are asking me about it then if if it is not true I immediately go and respond and I say

that's not so me and Rudy are fine or this is you know this is not where do you guys get this stuff or whatever else I shoot it down if it's not so And so I think everybody was waiting for Donovan to say something. And when he didn't, it spoke a million words. And then, you know, of course, you have Rudy Gobert saying, we hadn't talked in a long, long time, but I reached out to him and it's going to be okay. But this, this certainly, you know, we've talked about this story a lot. Here's the truth.

This could have big-time basketball implications. If it is a relationship that cannot be repaired, you look towards after this season and you wonder, as a franchise, can you exist with Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell and Rudy Gobert and a breach of trust with many of his teammates who obviously felt some level of ill will going forward. Not necessarily finishing this season, but what happens going forward? It's fascinating to say the least. And look, I don't know their level of relationship prior to it, but you've had enough stories talking about the feelings of people within the...

the jazz organization and the feelings of Donovan Mitchell that have not been refuted that you know this is real. Oh, I mean, Gobert himself, as you mentioned, he told Taylor Rooks that it was true. They didn't speak a while after his positive texts. And Chris Haynes later followed up, you know, to what Gobert said that Gobert and Mitchell spoke Saturday night. So we'll see what happens moving forward with that relationship. But the fact is, is that guess what, Rudy Gobert, he can become a free agents in the 2022 offseason. So that that time is coming soon for him to hit free agency and be able to make his own choice on his future. And for the Utah Jazz, if they feel in any particular way that he could walk or that this relationship is irreparable or if they feel like

they don't want to build with a bigger rim running center that they could they could better utilize that cap space and flip him from other talent. then maybe they should, they should assess and make that decision. There's other ways to build a winning team than with Rudy Gobert. And I would, I will be very curious to see what happens with him moving forward. And all of this conversation and as you said,

to be clear, like we don't know how this relationship will develop it. As Rudy Gober himself said, no relationship is perfect. However, all the talk did make me think about how many teams would, would really trade for Gobert making $25 million, knowing that he's going to be a free agent in 2022. I wonder how many, actually I'm sorry, I misspoke there. I kept saying 2022. He's a free agent

in 2021, so a year from now. How many teams would really trade for him a year before his free agency when he makes the money that he does, when he's going to demand the max contract that he likely would next summer. I wonder where his value actually would be in trade conversations across the league. I would imagine it's probably not as high as that you would expect for as a

defensive player of the year. It's a lot lower than it would have been before all of this happened. Right? Because this is a hard one to get passed. I would tell you, I would be surprised. Just reading the tea leaves, I would be surprised

if he's on that team next year. I would. You know, that by time the draft, free agency, everything's over, that I would imagine, you know, you just get a fresh start for him and you eliminate that level of resent because that is something that is not going to go away. And the fact that Donovan Mitchell, who by all accounts is a really good guy, is this mad about this situation. and he is your, I mean, he is going to be a key player for your franchise for the next eight to 10 years. That's a hard thing to deal with in the locker room if that relationship is truly going to be,

it's never going to be the same. Even if it's like, as Rudy says, it's not perfect. It's never going to be the same. And there's a breach of trust that went on there and that's very difficult to deal with. And so I think probably if you are the Utah Jazz, you look at it and you say, all right, we are going to move on from this and we're going to eliminate this issue. And then for Rudy Gobert, he gets a fresh start elsewhere. I just, I don't know. I just that's what I think just reading the stories because this has now been, you know, a couple months and we're still reading the same stories about how there was a level of frustration.

because you remember that first Adrian Worgonowski story that came out, and that was clearly from people within the jazz organization, and it was all about how much they were mad and frustrated at Rudy for the entire episode. And so it's tough. It's tough to get past. Another story that has come out is, and we spoke very lightly on this, last week, which was the hiring of Arturist Carnishovus from Denver with the Chicago Bulls. And I said, look, I don't understand hiring somebody to take over basketball unless you are going to get rid of the people that are responsible for the mess that you are in, which necessitated you going out and finding a new basketball mine.

Well, they did fire Gar Foreman yesterday, who had been with the organization for an inordinate amount of time, given their lack of success. John Paxton, John Paxton stays on as a senior advisor of basketball. And we'll see how this all plays out, but you could tell that there were exasperated Bulls fans. Because as I mentioned last week, the only thing that matters is who has the ear of the owner. And when you have somebody that has a longstanding relationship and you saw how effusive with praise that Reinsdorf was unbelievably about Paxon, you know, when somebody who is responsible for the mess you're in is still there and obviously has a good relationship with the owner, I would look at that as a real threat to me being able to do what I want to do if I'm trying to fix the mess. because let's just say, and I gave you, for instance, Carnishovus comes in and he says, you know what, I'm moving off of Zach Levine,

I'm moving off of Lori Marketing, and I'm going to try to find landing places and good assets for them, and I want to build around Kobe White, and I want to build around Wendell Carter. Now, that may be so, that may not be so, but. I mean, but did you see Zach Levine in the horse competition, though? He's awesome.

He's so good. You can't trade that guy. All I'm saying is, let's say, That is a real possibility, right? You say, hey, I like this guy, I like this guy, I'm moving off of this guy, I'm moving off of this guy. Well, the reason those guys are on the roster in the first place is because Paxon's there. You say, hey, I don't think this coach is the right fit for this mix. Or I don't like Sataransky.

Well, I just signed Satiransky last offseason as a free agent. I just gave Jim Boylan more money to coach this team going forward. Who knows? Who knows? We don't, we don't really know. But I know, but I just think it's good. I would be, I would be surprised if he would have taken that job,

knowing how highly sought after he is, if he was told, you know what, you're not going to have the final call here. And it may turn out that they say you're going to have the final call and then you don't get the final call, but someone like him who has been in conversations to be the head honcho and a front officer before,

I'd be a little bit shocked that they weren't going to give him that amount of flexibility. And not to mention, that he's the one conducting these interviews to hire general manager underneath him. And Woge reported today that the three candidates they were given permission to interview where Mark Eversley from the Sixers, Mark Cugues from the Clippers, and Matt Lloyd from the Magic. So he's making the call amongst his team with who's going to get hired to run that team by his side. And like we talked about last week, there's going to be multiple voices. There is in every organization for the most part with who's making calls, who has opinions.

We'll see over time if he's the guy making that final decision on these big, tough choices that you're talking about and alluding to when it comes to trades or draft picks or signings. But all I'm saying is that I would be shocked if he would have taken that job without some assurance that he would be the guy making those decisions. Yeah. Oh, and I hope he is. and I hope for Bulls fans that he is. Because what you don't want is Reinsdorf calling John Paxson and being like, here's what we're thinking about doing. What do you think?

I don't need his opinion there anymore. The reason I've been in this mess is because of him. I don't need his opinion anymore. And yet Rinesdorf obviously values this guy, which is why he kept him within the organization. Hopefully it's just a nice way of not firing him. and giving him a job, a role, a paycheck. But yes, the new guy is the one

that is going to be able to call the shots here. I hope for Bulls fans that that is so and that that's how this front office is being built. All right, we are going to get to some of the mailbag questions. They have continued to come in, and they have been absolutely fantastic. We'll hit those after these words. Today's Renair NBA show is brought to you by

As the novel coronavirus pandemic escalates in the U.S., public health officials are encouraging those who are experiencing signs or symptoms of COVID-19, such as coughing or fever, to seek medical guidance remotely. If you were a loved one are feeling sick or just feeling worried, there's a way to get help without leaving home. Roe is offering free telehealth services for people seeking guidance and information on COVID-19. The service is available free of charge in all 50 states and in Washington, D.C. Rowe's free online assessment will help determine if you are at risk, and if appropriate, Roe will connect you with a medical provider for a free consultation. The assessment was designed by doctors and infectious disease experts, and is based on guidelines from the CDC WHO.

Visit roe.co. slash coronavirus on your phone or laptop to complete a free online assessment or just learn more. If you're worried that you may be experiencing symptoms, go to RO.c.O.c. slash coronavirus to start your free assessment today. That's row.com slash coronavirus. All right, Bobby Wagner, what do we got this week from the mailbag? I'm back. I missed you guys last week during the mailbag, but I enjoyed listening to you guys anyway. It's nice to hear a reunion with our good friend Isaac Lee.

First up, we got a question from Jeb. This is a good one. I like this. How long did it take you guys to figure out what you wanted to do for your career? And do you have any advice for someone who feels like they're stuck right now? I feel like I sort of just fell into it in some ways, though I always had the desire to work in sports. Like when I was a teenager, I was like, oh, maybe it would be cool to be a sports agent. And then, you know, in my early 20s, I sort of thought, oh, maybe it would be cool to work for a team.

And then I had an internship at Comcast Sportsnet, New England, now NBC Sports Boston and someone there, Andy Levine, who now does work for the NBA. He's a poet and, you know, photographer. He does a lot of different things. Andy, Andy, at the end of that internship pulled me aside. He's like, what are you going to do after this? What are you going to do? And I'm like, I hope to get hired by you guys. And he sort of focused me to start writing, you know, when he asked if I like doing writing or,

video more and he said apply to write for sp nation do to celtics blog and so um he sort of like focused it for me i was always in front of me i just it was it's like it was out of focus like i was looking past it and he sort of allowed me and centered that vision vision um for what i wanted to do as a as a writer and even then though like i'm still sort of always figuring it out i mean like you and you know like you you've always done radio chris for me like i'm doing podcasting too. I do video too. I just like to, I've always liked to create, whether it's playing guitar or when I was a kid, I used to really like to draw. And it's the creative aspect that I love more than anything else. So I'm very, very thankful and fortunate to do what I do. I would say

it's two-pronged for me. The only thing I have ever cared about is sports, playing sports, reading about sports, liking sport. I mean, from the time I can remember. So the first, is the dream of being a professional athlete. By the time I got to high school, I realized that's not in the cards. High school, high school, huh? I realize it in elementary school.

No, I mean, by the time you get that, by the time I got to high school, I'm like, all right. Like, you know, I don't, I think I, if you still have pipe dreams of,

you know, wow, wouldn't it be amazing if I could play sport for a living? And so I knew I wanted to be, involved in sports. I would say probably college for me, honestly, because I went to college not really knowing what I was going to be doing. I did want to be involved in sports. And I took a class called Introduction to Broadcasting. And it was my favorite class that I took that particular semester. Because I think it was my, I think it was the first semester of my sophomore year,

because it gets to the point where it's like, okay, you need to declare a major and work toward something. And so I took this broadcasting class and I quite liked it. And I did some radio and TV stuff for that class. And then I had an internship with KFNS, which was at that time the big sports station in St. Louis. I did a radio internship that particular summer. And I loved it. and I loved being around it. And I was, you know, during the day, I was like, man, what an unbelievable job these guys have.

And so maybe then, right? When I was probably in college, you know, I thought this is what I want to do. I want to get involved in the broadcasting side of sports some way, somehow. So I guess that's probably, yeah, yeah, because I did an internship the next summer for a double A baseball team. the West Tennessee Diamond Jacks, which were the AA affiliate for the Chicago Cubs. And I went and did an internship there that summer. And I hated it with the fires of seven hells.

I absolutely hated it. And so I kind of like saw a couple of sides. That was a media relations gig. You know, writing press releases, doing all kinds of stuff. And I got paid nothing and they worked me to death. And I thought I will never do this. And so after a couple different internships and then, yeah, and then doing stuff in college.

I called the basketball games, you know, for my college. And I, um, I had my own TV show, uh, because I went to a small school so you're able to use all the broadcasting equipment all the time. And so I did that stuff and I, and I loved it. So that I guess, I guess college would be the best answer. It's interesting how you got all got all that experience in college. I was a psychology major in college that that was the major I chose after doing all those intro to classes.

And I was like, oh, I like psych. I would love to be able to, to, you know, help people or be, you know,

a guidance counselor or something like that. And I'm very, like, lucky, like I said, that with this career, the past year, I have been able to do that a little bit

with, like, the fundraiser and all that. And just having relationships, um, with the listeners, like being able to talk with people. Like, that makes me happy.

So that's something I always wanted to do in college. And so using like this, this, you know, basketball platform to do that, um, has been, beyond, you know, my wildest dreams. And, you know, I think in the second part of Jeb's question,

he said, any advice for someone who feels like they're stuck and don't know what to do? And that's a feeling I know very well. I mean, I think I've always been a, a happy person. I mean, I watch like old videos of myself, you know, when I was a toddler. And I could, I'm like, oh yeah, that's definitely my same personality back then. I've always been happy. But I do think from my age like 17 to 22 when I when I really felt stuck that's not a good feeling so I can relate to that and for me I mean looking back I would say the main thing is I would tell myself just to to be patient and to think about the things that you enjoy what are the things that give you satisfaction and and if that's sports or if that's you know helping people

or if it's, you know, if it's working with your family or if it's non-profit stuff, whatever it may be, if it's something that makes you happy, like, then figure out, well, what are the avenues for me to work in a field that's somewhat related to this? You're never going to get exactly what you want right, oh boy, but what are the things that you can do to get yourself in that general ballpark of something that you, you know, take satisfaction in doing? So I know like there's a lot of people who say like don't work a job that's your passion or or people who say like don't work at what you love, but I don't necessarily agree with that. I think I think it's great and it's really fulfilling personally to work in a field that I really enjoy. I mean, this is something that I enjoy even if it wasn't a job. And sometimes sometimes there's always certain days when like, you know, your enjoyment of it may be a little bit diminished because it's something that becomes.

you have to do, not that you choose to do, but that's insignificant compared to, you know, some other, you know, jobs where you're not enjoying it. So I just think finding what you like and focusing in on that and figuring out the avenues to work in that is, is one of the keys when you feel stuck. So that's what I would tell myself, you know, from 18 to 22. That's what I would say to that person then. And that's what I would say to you now, Jeb, and to anybody else who feels the same way. My advice for anybody that would be getting involved in sports, to your point, Kevin, find what you are passionate about, but also find a lane. Find something that you are doing that you can focus in on because I think you could go back to almost any of us.

And it's not just, I want to comment on sports like I see those guys on TV. Find a lane. Find something that you can be known for, right? In your case, it was the Celtics. you wrote for about the Celtics. In my case, it was the Grizzlies. I was young, though. It wasn't just the Celtics and it wasn't just the Grizzlies, though.

I mean, for me, it was like the draft guide and, and like the type of angles that I took with the Celtics for you. But you know they found you on Celtics blog. But yes, but for you, like, it wasn't just the Grizzlies. It was like your big personality. You know, like you were a very vibrant personality. But what I'm saying is, Kevin, you find something like that that if I want to read about this or if I want to hear about this, that this person can become some level of an authority

on that particular subject. In other words, like, you know, it's what you know best. So focus on that. Yeah. Yes. It's what you know best. And so because that's how most people end up getting found, right? It's not because they spread themselves thin and tried to understand and know everything.

Find the thing that you can really focus in on. and that you love a lot and then decide this is what I'm going to be talking about and there's a million subjects out there and I think that's true of so many people that have ended up making it and being able to break through

and I say before that process though don't be afraid to you know explore different things either of that you know before you find before you find one thing or two things or three things you know you know experiment around a little bit and try different things and also read the book range by David Epstein as an aside also also also take a look at

the landscape and decide like hey there aren't a ton of people doing this um yes there was this there was this uh there's this old story years ago god rest his soul one of my dear friends who was a guest on my uh show for many many years uh was the most famous boxing writer that there was bert sugar and he had this unbelievable personality, and he had become a mentor of sorts for me for many years. And I remember talking to Bert about how he got involved. Like, how is he the boxing guy, right? Like, if there's fights that's on, everybody wants to talk to Bert Sugar, HBO, if there's these shows they're doing on ESPN, they always bring Bert Sugar on.

He's the historian. He's the one that knows everything about boxing. And he told me this old story, and it was about Yogi Berra. And he said, he went to, you know, they had baseball. tryouts, right? And they said, everybody that wants to play first base, run to first base. Everybody wants to play second base, run to second base. Everybody that wants to run to the outfield, go to the outfield, right?

And so all the kids dispersed. And nobody went to go play catcher. And so Yogi Berra ran over there. And because that's how I knew I'd get to play, right? I knew I'd get to play if I played catcher. And he said, when he was coming up, he looked at the landscape and there was a guy doing football and there was a guy doing baseball and there was a guy doing this this is always stuck with me and he said that's how there was nobody else doing it so if i was going to be writing about boxing

and i was going to be talking about boxing i could be the guy there weren't that many people doing this surprisingly at the time and so there was a lot of people trying to do all the other sports but there weren't many that were coming up trying to do this one and so that's how he became the boxing guy, much like how Yogi Berra, became a catcher once upon a time. And so try to check out the landscape and find out, okay, here's something that people are interested in that not a lot of people are talking about doing,

researching, becoming an expert in. I love it. What do we got next, Bobby? All right. Next up, not much of a question here, but a follow up on something that Verno said last episode, which was that he's not sure if there's ever been someone to lead the league in scoring who hasn't made.

made the Hall of Fame. Our listener Alex had some free time this weekend and went back and looked that up for us. So he said that there has not been someone who led the league in scoring and made the Hall of Fame. Obviously active players are excluded from this, but that there has been a list of

seven guys who finished second in the league in scoring, which I think is what you guys were talking about with Jerry Sackhouse at the time. So shout out to our listener Alex. He listed off these guys here and some interesting names in here. Mark Aguire, Kiki Van der Waer, Be Free twice, Billy Knight, Alex Groza twice in the 50s,

Max Zoslowski, and Bob Freerick, those guys are both in the 40s. So shout out to our listener, Alex, who went back and looked that up for us. Unbelievable. Yeah, that wasn't reference to Jerry Stackhouse, who we had gotten at a brief conversation with his comments about Michael Jordan, because I said he averaged like 29 points a game and was second in the league in scoring behind only Alan Iverson, and I had wondered aloud if there was ever anybody.

that led the entire NBA in scoring that was not a Hall of Famer. And so he finds out the answer is, the answer is no, huh? How about that? Thank you, Alex. Love it. World Be Free average 28.8 in 1978 and 30.2 in 1979. It didn't lead the league in scoring.

Tough beat for World Be Free. That is unbelievable. Well, you know, it makes me think, you know, the world doesn't remember second place. Have you all seen that movie, Molly's game? Nope. I have not. Oh, you should watch this.

It's about the girl that put together the underground poker games that included all kinds of, you know, Toby McGuire, Leonardo DiCaprio, athletes and actors. Jessica Chastain plays the lead, and it's fantastic. I loved it. I think Aaron Sorkin is the one that did the movie. Anyways, there is a story in that movie. I'm not spoiling anything where he's telling the story about, you know, Jesse Owens, you know, in the Olympics, and he breaks all of those records. when Hitler's Germany is going on and everything. And he tells the story of this guy who got second place.

And what he got in the, his times within the Olympics would have set the world record in his own right. If there was no Jesse Owens, his time would have set the world record and that history does not remember him at all. And how about this? it was Jackie Robinson's brother. Jackie Robinson's brother was in second place to Jesse Owens in the Olympics. And there's probably a lot of people that are listening right now that probably had never heard that. I just remember it from hearing it in that movie and I'll be like, I'll be damn. And his life went on and he was never famous.

No one, you know, there's no books written about him. No one knows his name, nothing. And they're telling this entire story and they say you may know his brother, who became rather famous. His brother was Jackie Robinson. And I was like, I'll be damned. You know, history just doesn't remember you if you get second place, you know. It's crazy.

And once upon a time, Jerry's Tagghouse was second in the NBA in scoring. And now a lot of those names were great names. Kiki Vandeway, Mark Aguire, World Be Free. I mean, these guys had really fantastic careers. Wow. Unbelievable. Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to

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All right next up So we got a question from Zach Who is a big Marcus smart fan I feel like Kevin You attract a lot of big Marcus smart fans To this podcast But Zach wants to know Why it's less common

For guards to win the defensive player Of the year award Because a lot of people You know In media and on teams view guard defense as less valuable than wing or big defense. And there's, you know, you can argue either way with that.

I tend to agree that it's less valuable. I think there is still value to it. But when you think about today's league, who are the most valuable defenders? It is those guys who can defend multiple positions or who can impact different areas of the floor. You know, those Draymond Green types who can switch but also protect the interior or Rudy go bear types who are so dominant in the paint that they force teams to do something that they don't want to do. Or Yana Sumpur, who can be used as that Swiss Army knife all over the court and very well could

be the defensive player of the year. Those are the guys who have size and ability to defend different areas or different positions. Guards, it's hard for them to retain their value when they're on a switch against a six foot eight LeBron James or on a switch. against Joelle Embed. So it's very difficult for a guard to do that. Unless, like, you're a 6 foot 7, 6 foot 8 guard.

If you're, if you're Ben Simmons at 6 foot 10 and you're a guard, are you really a guard? I don't think so. I don't really think in terms of positions. When I think guard, I think smaller guys. And I don't see one of those types of players winning defensive player of the year anytime soon unless it's a Marcus Smart type who happens to also, you know, play 34, 35 minutes per game.

game. But even then, it's still hard for Marcus Smart to have as much value defensively as some of those other guys that I mentioned. The easy answer for me is, though advanced metrics have found their way into basketball arguments, not totally. And the counting stats are for big guys. It's easy to go look at blocks per game and blocks and rebounding and defensive rebounding. And so outside of steals, there is no other easy metric for the smaller guy. That's it. There's no other easy metric for the smaller guy. Except for steel.

No, that's it. That's the only counting stat. What I'm saying is the counting stats are used for. I don't think people, I don't think, I think defensive player of the year reminds me a lot of like gold gloves and baseball, where it's a lot of it is reputation based. So, like, people know Rudy Gobert is an elite defender, and he is. People know Draymond Green as an elite defender. People know Kawhi Leonard is an elite defender.

I mean, I think it goes beyond counting stats here. I don't think Gober won consecutive defensive player of the years because he averaged, you know, 12 rebounds a game or two blocks a game. I think he won partially because people just know that he is a great defender. I don't think it's as much the stats with defense because as, as he's, you said there are no good defensive stats. There just aren't. I mean, you can look at individual like RPM and all that, but it's really hard to create good defensive stats

without player tracking data. And that stuff isn't quite public yet, though some is out there with terms of matchup data, but it's very noisy and very difficult to look at defensive data when it comes to voting on that award. I mean, it's part of it, I'm sure, for some voters, but of the 100-ish that vote, I personally, as a voter, I can't,

I don't really care for stats when it comes to defensive player of the year. And I would imagine that's the case for most voters. It's ironic to me that now big men or bigger players win defensive player the year more often now that it's a guards league and then back in the 90s and 80s,

guards used to win it more often. It's the easiest thing to notice. Yeah, exactly. But also like, the block shot, the rim protection is the easiest thing to notice if you are watching a basketball game. If I deny the ball from getting to a guy, yes, I am individually playing amazing perimeter defense. But there's no, there's no tracking of that. And so when I am watching a game and I see a guy go to the basket and you are detoured or your shot is blocked, or a switch takes place and I am staying in front of that man.

It's the easiest thing to watch when people are watching the defense event. How many people are truly paying attention to what defense each guard is playing? Unless they are routinely getting blown past or completely shutting somebody down, it's hard on an individual play basis to be sitting there watching. Is this guy doing the right thing on the defense? And the defense is also hard to understand. The big guy is the easiest thing to understand when it comes to watching basketball. The perimeter guy is not easy to understand.

And I say that because as I sat there next to, I said the blessing. Says the guy who thinks Brooke Lopez stinks. I didn't say he stinks. I said it's preposterous that he should be defensive player of the year. as I sat next to Tashon Prince for two different seasons watching games

if you don't know what the defense is supposed to be doing then how are you supposed to judge that person and most media don't know who's supposed to be switching who's supposed to have that guy in the corner and so it's very difficult

it's very difficult to judge same thing in NFL really when it comes to a sense of it is a blown defensive coverage like yes it might have been on the safety, but maybe not. You just don't know what coverage they were in, what the responsibilities were.

And it's the same thing with NBA defense, maybe even to a greater extreme, because of how fast the game is actually played. So you look, man, like defense is hard. It's hard to assess. It's hard to, for NBA analytics guys to figure out what are good defensive stats. I have talked to a number of people who work in analytics

in the NBA who say they are not convinced of their defensive stats have that much value in-house, it's hard. It's hard to assess with video. It's hard to assess with numbers. And that's where I sort of, like I said, a lot of it comes down to just eye tests with defense. And to your point, Chris,

sometimes it's easier to see when a big guy is making an impact, whereas it's harder to see maybe when a guard by properly fighting around an off-ball screen and then denying a passing opportunity, just blew up everything. Yep. let's get a couple more before we get out of here Bobby all right we got next up we got Kevin

Kevin you're running into our own show oh yeah good nice thing Kevin he probably did Kevin asks do you think the layoff of the season helps or hurts the current rookies growth in development and to look forward to the upcoming rookie class does the layoff of the NCAA tournament help or hurt the development of the upcoming draft

prospects I think it hurts the development of draft prospects without being able to get in the gym with the people you plan on training with or getting to work out against other players. In that sense, I would say it hurts. And I also think there's value for players to work out with teams and get feedback from executives. You know, I mean, like, I would imagine if you're a young, 18, 19 year old kid, there might be one thing if you're a sponge that someone says and it sticks with you.

and it's something that you work on. And it's something that is valuable to you years later. It may just be one thing out of 10, 15 workouts, but it's something. And that's missing right now for prospects. In terms of rookies, I think not going all the way through the finish line, it's hard to know if it's good or bad.

But I do think there's value in playing your first full 82 game season. And right now guys aren't going to be able to do that. We'll be lucky if we can get the regular season to crack 70 games. I think it's bad for everybody. I mean, the short answer. That's the simple answer, bad for everybody. Yeah. Literally everybody.

You know, basketball players and non-basket players. The only people this is good for are the injured guys. That's it. The injured guys that are able to get healthy without missing the games that they would normally be missing. Or the ones that have been playing through an injury that now have the opportunity to get off their feet and properly recuperate. Other than that, no, in terms of development, you got to remember not only to your point, Kevin, are these guys doing all of these different workouts and working out for teams and honing their skills? In many cases, if they are elite level players, they're playing in all of these camps throughout this summer,

camps that probably just won't take place now, where much like the effect that we say sometimes that USA basketball can have on players, well, in fact, even on the lower levels, USA basketball still would be getting together in the summer and doing the run-throughs. And then you're playing against other great players and you see kind of what you have to be able to work on. There's a lot of guys that went to the, you know, say like the Chicago Combine. And who knows if that's going to be able to take place? I'd imagine not. And they kind of see how they stack up against other guys. And they go through the testing and they get the feedback and they're able to work.

And so, yeah, I don't see any good to this. Most of these guys, and there's a lot of these guys that aren't playing basketball at all. You know, I just read an article the other day about one of the teams. I think there were two guys on the team that had a basketball goal at their house. You know, I mean, I don't know how this can be good for anybody except for the guy that needs this time to recuperate. All right, last one. Fellow ringer podcaster Ryan Rusilla was doing a lot on a lot about NBA GM. roles on his show this past week and they talked about it on Bill's show Sunday too.

Our listener Jacob asked if you could be the GM in charge of a non-playoff team right now, which would you choose and why? Can we take the pelicans off the table here? I mean, I think that's fair, right? Take the pelicans off the table. Otherwise, because that would be the easy. Yeah, that's the easy one. And even the Warriors, take them out too.

Because we're going to Seth Kari and Clay Thompson back. Okay, so we're taking off the Warriors and we're taking it. off the ever taken off the pelicans. Yeah. I'd love to be the guy who saves the Knicks. I'd want the Knicks job.

I'd love, I'd love to have that big market, first of all. I'd love to have, even Dolan is, you know, he's James Dolan. He still has a history

of being willing to spend into the luxury tax and give freedom to the guys he hires. I would want, I would want to have the New York job and bring that team

back to the glory days, bring him to a championship, and do it in New York. That's what I would want, Chris. All right. Look, you took those two off the board. So the other two for me are the Grizzlies and the Kings. The Grizzlies are a playoff team technically.

The eight seed, Chris. Come on. Then the Kings. What? I read the ringer too much. Every time I read it, you guys have the pelicans in instead of the Grizzlies. I forgot. They're not going to let their kids.

Grizzlies in? Hell, they're going to have a tournament just to see who can get the 8 seed. Even though the grizzlies are three and a half games ahead of everybody. Kevin, this is officially the end of the Bray Future Sons. You didn't pick them in this. It's over, man. Yeah, it's over. They're the 13 seed. They don't have a bright future anymore. I feel like the Sons already have some of their guys. I want a team where there's a lot of work to do. Congrats on their big video game win over the weekend. Oh, please. We know they're good at video games. That's what I always used to do with Madden or 2K or even NBA

live back in the days. I always used to take the team that needed the most work. So that's why I'm choosing the next. Then you would have taken the calves. Not even Kevin wants the calves. In a video game, I would take Cleveland, but we're talking in real

life, I would want, as I said, the big market and, I mean, so maybe I'm not taking the hardest job, but this is real life, not a video game. I always like taking the top the bad teams. Yeah. If you took the Pelicans and you take the Warriors off the board, I'd take the Kings.

And I'd go in there and I'd fix everything with Buddy healed. And I'd say, Marvin Bagley, can I get you healthy? And I would, I just think they've got, I think they've got the pieces. I think they've got the pieces to build around going forward. I would love to live in an alternate reality where Christopher gets hired as a president of basketball operations. I tell you this. I couldn't do worse than Vladi Devok. I promise you that.

Last thing, last thing before we get out of here, and this is on an incredibly somber note, unfortunately. But as you're looking through those teams and the non-playoff teams, clearly Gerson Rosas has got a job ahead of him with the Minnesota Timberwolves, and he started on that by acquiring DeAngelo, Russell, Malik Beasley, and the like to get moving forward. But their best player and their all-star is Carl Anthony Towns. And a couple of weeks ago, we spoke about how Carl had gone on Instagram and he put out the video about his mother who had recently fallen into a coma and what the Towns family was going through as she had been diagnosed with acquiring the coronavirus.

And it was just yesterday that it was announced that she did in fact pass away. And so thoughts and prayers go to Carl Anthony Towns, his family, that entire Timberwolves family. You know, unfortunately so many times, and you've probably known somebody by now personally that has contracted the virus. But certainly, you know, I remember it all becoming very, very real that night that Rudy Gobert was announced as having contracted the virus. and sports sometimes, someone that you see all of the time, can make it more real. And Carl had told us weeks ago, take this very, very seriously, because this is what this is doing. And he lost his mother. And so thoughts and prayers to everybody there was just an incredibly tragic story.

And seeing all the videos posted and pictures posted of him and his mother throughout the years, it just absolutely breaks your heart. She raised a great man in Carl. you know, I've only spoken with him a handful of times and he's been great every time. It's just really a joy to chat with and, you know, it's just sad. Like you mentioned those pictures and videos that are out there of his mother. I mean, it reminds me, like, I can't help but think of so many moments that I've shared with my parents, you know, just those moments of joy. And, you know, seeing how her and her husband, Carl's dad celebrated when he got named an All-Star or, when he's at the podium and he chose to go to Kentucky,

just seeing how proud she was of her son, I can't help think of, you know, my dad, you know, after losing him last month and not getting able to enjoy more of those moments in the future. So, I mean, for me, I'm just holding on to those good memories. And for Carl Anthony Towns, that's all you can really do now. So sending all the best, all the love in the world to Carl, to his family, to his dad and everybody who is in her orbit.

She seemed like a truly, truly, you know, great woman and loving mother. Thanks to everybody for listening to another episode of The Mismatch. Kevin, give him that email address in case they want to send in questions as these weeks and months continue to go on. NBA Mailbag at gmail.com. NBA Mailbag at gmail.com. Thanks to Bobby Wagner, as always. If dig what you're hearing, go give us a rating and review.

five stars five stars it really helps we will talk to you on friday