The Ringer NBA Show - What Does the League Look Like Without a Best Player? | The Answer

Episode Date: March 5, 2022

Chris and Seerat begin the pod by sharing their reactions to LeBron James's performance against the Mavs on Tuesday night and wonder if the game was a "changing of the guard" moment in regards to him being the face of the league. They then revisit the recent matchups between the Hawks and the Bulls and talk about how Trae Young and DeMar DeRozan elevate those teams.(15:32) Next they pivot to James Harden's first games with the Sixers and debate whether his instant meshing with Joel Embiid is a sign of Philadelphia finally attaining championship-contender status.(19:49) They wrap things up by discussing the improvements Luka Dončić (25:53) and Giannis Antetokounmpo (31:01) have made this season and whether there is a need for "heliocentric" players in the current NBA. (37:27) Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Production Assistant: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's help everybody. I'm JJ John G. And I'm Jason Gough. And if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the big apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shy Town with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests.

Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines. So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined as always by Siritt. Sohey. What's up, Siritt? How's it going, Chris? Oh, you know, it's tough being the heliocentric lead of a podcast. You know what I mean? Where the offense is kind of built around my skill set. That's what we're talking about today on the answer. We're discussing this idea of, I guess basically, whether or not there is a best player in the NBA right now. There are a lot of great players in the NBA, and there's a lot of guys who have acclaim to the throne. But I've been thinking about this idea a bit. We've been chatting about it. And I've been watching a little bit of the screeners for the HBO show winning. time, which is this show about the 1980s Lakers. It's really cool show. People should check it out. I think it's on this weekend. But the reason why I bring it up is because obviously it's this point in the NBA where it was kind of in the wilderness and then Magic and Bird come in and revolutionize

not only the sport, but also like the brand of the NBA and make it this kind of global phenomenon. And since then, there have been a succession of, I would say it's like regardless of who wins MVP in any given year or who might be considered the best player in the league at any given season. There's been a succession of, I would say, almost like logo level players. Like the player that you would tell, if you say to somebody, do you like basketball, they would probably be like, yes, I like this player. Or if you were trying to explain basketball to an alien, you'd probably be like, you should watch Michael Jordan, or you should watch Kobe Bryant, or you should watch

LeBron James, and that would give them an idea of what basketball is like at any given point. And now we arrive at this place. where we have half a dozen, eight, maybe ten guys who all have like a shout at being the MVP of this season. We are watching LeBron, who has essentially been the avatar for the NBA for the last 15 years,

candidly look like he's in a bit of decline. And we're wondering like who's next, who's going to take that spot? Will anybody take that spot? Is the game engineered for someone to take that spot? And in terms of player movement, you know, does this constant shuffling of the rosters that happens in the NBA pretty commonly now

mean that we're not going to ever really have like a guy who is associated with the team who builds something, has a system built around him, they put together a roster around him, and then he wins a succession of titles, thus like kind of putting his stamp on that era. Obviously, LeBron has done that over the last 15 years in several different places,

but not in the way Byrd did with Boston. or Magic did with L.A. or Jordan did with Chicago or Kobe did with L.A. So that's a long way of saying. We're talking about who's the best player in the league and is there one. And, Sir, the way you wanted to kind of get into this was almost like looking at it tactically and this idea of heliocentric basketball, which was kind of new to me. And so I thought maybe we could start with, can you explain a little bit about what heliocentric basketball means? Yeah, for sure. So it's essentially the idea that there are offensive players,

now in the league. And Seth Part Now I actually coined this, I think, two years ago, or three years ago now. He wrote an article The Athletic about it if anybody wants to really dig into it. And in that time, there have also been a lot of people who have built on the idea, too. Like, I think Ben Taylor for thinking basketball is one of the guys who's talked about it in a really interesting way. But essentially, it is what we see all around the league right now with Superstar players. We have guys who are incredible scorers, three-level scores, that are also really good playmakers. And what that is essentially done is it's allowed one person to become basically the sun in the solar system of an NBA possession. If you want to look at it from a visual perspective, I think the most effective example of this right now is Nicola Yokic, just hanging out either at the top of the key or in the middle.

And a whole bunch of guys literally like the Earth and Mars and like whatever are revolving. around him, whether it's a dribble handoff or they're making cuts or there's like other offball screening action happening. And he is basically just standing above all of it and seeing either who he's going to pass to or, you know, if he's going to decide to take the onus on himself. This kind of applies to LeBron is probably the originator of it just with organically how he played. And Trey Young and Luca Donchich, just basically these guys who are are impossible to cover. And also, you don't necessarily want to double them either because they can get the ball out of their hands pretty quickly. So, yeah, it's kind of just a league that we're in.

There are not that many players or systems that succeed at this level that go against it. I would say the Warriors are probably one of them. And the Suns on another level are probably one of them too. Do you think that, and we're just chatting about this here, but like, do you think that this idea of a heliocentric player, while it is not new, because Lorand did, it, you could probably make an argument that Magic did it or that Jordan was in this kind of vein. You have seen some Lakers games lately live. Yes. And you've also apparently been watching these screeners, which you haven't sent to me, but whatever.

We'll talk about that later. What would you say is like the comparison and the contrast between Magic and LeBron and this concept? Well, I think that Magic was probably more of a facilitator than LeBron is. I mean, like in sort of like his positional responsibilities. Like LeBron is at once a four and a one and can play a five, but can also. be a three, you know, like, I always felt like, especially once he got to Miami, like, LeBron was like an offense unto himself, and that has kind of continued on since throughout his career. The magic stuff, I think he was essentially still. And what the early part of this

winning time show kind of gets into is whether or not magic is a point guard, because he's so tall. And it's this tension between the Lakers had Norm Nixon at the time, who was like kind of an archetypal floor general. And this idea that a six foot nine point guard is just like, like absurd to Jerry West and to the league and it's like how is he going to dribble it bounces so high because he's so tall it'll just get the ball stolen off of him so I mean obviously the game has changed a lot since then so I went to this lakers game on Tuesday night I got to see I got to see the Lucas show it in the beginning it seemed like he might score 60 points and have 25 rebounds but he did kind of come back down to earth for part of the game until the fourth quarter when he

just went completely into kill mode and was I think now infamously, like, calling for LeBron on switches. Like, he was switching onto LeBron to remove his soul from his body. And I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but it's kind of hard to imagine, like, the Lakers season going on from there. Like, it was a real, like, test of the Lakers medal, and they didn't pass it. And then they also got smoked by the Clippers last night. But, yeah, like, watching that Luka offense and his ability to see over and pass over his

initial defender or whoever he gets switched on to him, his ability to get his shot, like he said, both from distance and also taking contact and getting into the rim and also with this crazy mid-rame drive-and-kick game that he has where he can pull up for a jumper or he can find Dinwiddie or Dorian Finney Smith or Jalen Brunson or now the seemingly like endless amount of shooters that Dallas has. It was a very much like that astronomical phenomenon that you're describing with with the like everybody revolving around Luca. and it was almost like watching a page turn in the NBA of LeBron's time kind of like winding down a little bit

but I went to two games in last week and both it was the first Clippers game and then it was the Mavericks game it seems like LeBron's got like eight, nine really good minutes in him per night and you can kind of be you can look up and be like oh LeBron's got 15 he's having a good game but it doesn't feel like he's putting his stamp on the game and then he takes over but there is a tank now

like he has a gas tank and the gas tank we'll go empty at a certain point and that's where the ADs and the Russes probably needed to be able to prop things up and they're just not doing that. Like I would say both times I've seen the Lakers, LeBron's best stretch comes while Russ has ice bags wrapped around his knees on the bench.

So tough scene. But yeah, like it definitely felt like we were watching some kind of transitional period for the NBA. Yeah, when Luca came in, I think it was in the third quarter and just ran from the top of the key to get a putback dunk. that was the stuff that LeBron used to do.

You know, if he was upset or if he just felt like, you know, it would be, it would often come in these moments where his teams really needed a run. That just looked like vintage LeBron to me. And there were a number of different things. I remember watching that game and just being like, LeBron, you can't let LeBron go left. Right.

You can't do that. We've known that for a really long time. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, he looked tired. He looked tired. And I think we've hit like an all-time point. Well, there was a point where he asked for a sub, I think, very briefly in the fourth quarter.

order. I don't know if that was because he was tired. It looked like maybe he had like a shoe lace thing going on. I'm not really sure. But there's like just a little bit more walking going on. There's a little bit more cherry picking where he doesn't go down on defense and then is like hanging out by the basket or like on foul shots. He'll like he'll be down on the other end like waiting by himself. And I'm like this isn't the LeBron I know kind of. Yeah, which you can't do when you're playing the five and you're also sharing the four with like Malik Monk Westbrook and Carmelo Anthony at the same time. Like we've also an all time point. for like LeBron making defensive mistakes and then just looking around. Like the amount of times that like Powell caught a lob and LeBron just looked at somebody else like, dude, you're the five actually. Like you're the role man. And you're also like the only person who is tall enough and athletic enough to get up there on those. There was a cool moment where I was watching because I was watching a little bit higher up.

And you could kind of see the issue with LeBron playing free safety and Russ playing free safety. And neither of them really kind of like sticking to their guy. and I was like, Luca Donchich is on the floor. They're going to find the dude you're supposed to guard, man. You can't drift and try and help weak side on this. I'm not coach Tibbs, but I can see this. It's pretty brutal out there for the Lakers.

I caught most of that Clippers game, but there's also, there's a thing with these late games where I feel like for me personally, I just need the game to be engaging for me to be engaged. And that Lakers game was just not. It looked like it could be for a brief moment. Like that's a thing with the Lakers. They had all these moments this season where it looked like, oh my God, like this could really be like Lob City 2.0, like get going in transition.

Like that second half or that second quarter run that they made to bring the game close. It was like, okay, like we're getting somewhere, but they just don't play any defense. Like you just can't let guys get off for threes like that. It's just impossible. But yeah, it was really interesting to watch that sort of changing of the guard. And every single time, I feel like every week, the reason I really even wanted to talk about this is that, you know, MVP is now getting to a place where it's March. and we ought to start thinking about who the vote goes to. Right, because we usually start.

And now, like, in the last couple of seasons, we've started talking about MVP in November. October. Yeah, October, November, which is obscene. And we usually, we did not do that when I was, like, growing up. Like, you would just kind of find out at the end of year, like, oh, Tim Duncan won again. Okay. Right.

But now it's like, after two weeks, it's just like, is this guy in poll position? It would be hard to take them over. And it's like, an election. Yeah. Is that a gambling thing, you think? Um, I think it's a gambling thing. it's a content thing. I think it's like it's like a good way to like kind of talk about a league that's difficult to cover every game and every team. But like if you if you want you can kind of I do think

it's interesting how there are a couple of dudes who start in the top five. You know like Durant, Curry, Yokic and to some extent in Beter are always going to kind of like have that head start because of their name recognition and past performance. And then you've got like the Damars and the Jaws who are probably like trying to break into that group. have just as good of a case. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think that's a good point. Luca was a preseason favorite.

It seemed like Luca had really enjoyed himself over the summer, so he didn't come into the season looking at his best. Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, he had some games to win in Europe and, you know, probably some other stuff to do in Europe too. Right. Joelle Embed was second. Then you had Katie, Janice, and Curry pretty much at the same level. Then you had LeBron, Dame.

then Yokic who won last year was somehow, I guess, like, you got to factor in the voter fatigue, but he wasn't, he was eighth. Then you got book, Trey, Hardin, and AD. Now, you got to throw in, like you said, Damar and Jah onto that list. You take out a couple guys as well, but it's becoming impossible to figure out who the MVP should be. And by that same token, like, I think it's becoming harder to be like, well, who's the best player then? Right. And that's where I think heliocentrism might be the actual answer to why we're seeing some of this.

Because it only kind of follows naturally that if you put a really talented player in a position where their skill set is going to be maximized, now some of these players have been playing with the same teammates for so long that their teams have figured out how to best build around them, or they're figuring out like the Mavericks are with trading for Spencer, that those players' stats would be incredible because they're getting the ball a ton to. like kind of thinking back to the Magic Johnson thing, his job was to facilitate and also to set up the best score on the team. Hypothetically, LeBron should have been able to do a similar thing with AD this season. He hasn't been able to, but that is a very different sort of job as a point guard than, you know,

what we're seeing from like Luca or Yokic or Trey. Yeah, I almost feel like this idea that you're proposing and that Seth and other people have written about in the past. This heliocentric idea is like a new version of unicornism, you know, which was very much in fashion when Christaps and towns and AD were kind of coming into the league and this idea and Embed and like we've never seen big men who can also playmake or handle or shoot from outside like this. With this like post-Christbosch facility of like the extending the floor at that size.

but the way you're describing it, and it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a certain size like Luca is. Like you can be a Tray Young kind of more traditional point card size or even undersized. But it's that idea that you have to have like an offense revolving around you and that your threat is I can go for 41, but I can also have 15 assists, right?

Yeah, and I do wonder if size actually might be a bit of an issue. So the Hawks and Bulls played last night. They've played twice this week, I believe, or they played earlier last week. We had a lot of little baseball series going on. Yeah, we have. We have. We have. It's kind of fun.

Yeah. It is fun. It is fun. I'm enjoying it. I really like seeing, like, the matchup differences and everything. We can get into, like, that a little bit with the Warriors and Mavs. But the Hawks versus Bulls game was really interesting to me because, well, it was, for Damar was coming off of, you had a game against Memphis, which was probably his most

uncharacteristic game. the season. He was just incredibly frustrated all game. It seemed like pretty much from the first quarter. So maybe it wasn't even like an on-court thing. Who knows. But essentially like it got to a place of, you know, the Grizzlies are just, they bother everybody, right? Like they're very frustrating. And on the other end, like nobody could guard jaw and you need rim protection against jaw and the bulls just don't have it. And there's very little they could actually do about it. And Damar basically, what I've noticed from watching him is that the more frustrated he gets, the more tunnel vision he gets, which is why I do worry about reversion in the playoffs for him.

Like, I don't think necessarily, like, people, you know, when he was in Toronto, people said it was about pressure, right? But I think it's actually just a frustration of a really physical defense. And he's definitely grown in that regard, but he just kind of like, he just had one of those games in Memphis. And then, then against the heat, they held him to 18. And they're also another incredibly frustrating defense. And then on the other end with the Hawks, like, you've just got kind of, it's been the tray show. And he's also, having an incredible individual season, but the Hawks are 10th. And I really, I don't know, I really enjoyed watching these two guys play against each other because I feel like on some level they have

similar issues, but also similar strengths. Like JJ Reddick a couple weeks ago on his podcast was talking about Damar being a playoff proof player because of his mid-range game and how, you know, he's going to be able to get off the shot that nobody wants to give you. And I think on some level, that could definitely end up being true, but that also makes me think more about Trey than it does DeMar because he's also got all the other stuff. But at the same time, it's like you can get, you can trap him better. And he has got a huge passing bag and, you know, he, the rap rounds are incredible. But as the league just gets more and more, you know, like, we're kind of going back to having bigger players on the floor again. Like, I do wonder how that'll hold up. But all of that

is really just to say that those are two teams that I look at. And I'm like, more so the Hawks. Like, if you get into the playoffs, those are obviously in the playoffs, but if you get into the playoffs, they're kind of a wild card because of how unguardable Trey can be in those situations. But at the same time, you know, his usage is up two points this year.

He's taking three more shots this year. And it's not necessarily been in service of the Hawks' offense. Or, you know, the Hawks winning, really, or their growth or whatever. Like, we've talked about this. It's like, it's good for Trey, but it has remained, it's yet to be seen whether it's going to be good for the Hawks. Well, I wonder if it's good for Trey.

Like, I'm sure Trey probably is playing the way that he thinks he has to play or, you know, just kind of growing his game, right? And they are missing John Collins right now as well. But it got me thinking a little bit about the dark side of this stuff. Of being a, being the sun. Yeah. Being the sun. The dark side of the sun, which is an unknown Pink Floyd record, you know, very underlisten to, yeah.

Yeah. You know, because then you can just build a wall. That's right. That's right. But like, what do you mean? I mean, so it's like basically like if you're relying on one person to be the offense, right? Yeah. So last year, you know, it's always a bit of a catch at 22. Last year, Trey got hurt in the playoffs and the Bucks ended up making the finals. And maybe the Bucs make the finals anyway if Trey doesn't get hurt. But at the same time, it's like if Trey isn't driving into Trees for three playoff series and having to go up again. against like Drew and Chris Middleton and then, you know, meet Janice like either at the rim or like try to hit a floater over him, then, you know, I, you never want to say maybe

he doesn't get hurt, right? Because it's like, we have this weird thing about injuries where we pretend everything is so random, but like, let's, let's be real, like usage matters and all, all those, all those things, right? And I don't know. It just, it makes me kind of think about the Sixers, um, and Hardin. Think about it as much as you want. I'm like the perfect conversation partner for this subject. I feel like we can actually earn a talk Sixers now without, you know, having to move on to something else, which I'm excited to do. But it's, uh, it's watching him and come to, uh, come to Brooklyn and then to Philly and take this sort of, I'm going to be way more of a point guard and facilitator role. It feels like he'd learned something

from, from Houston. I should hope so. I mean, he was there for quite a while. Yeah, sure. So his last. season in Houston. Basically, obviously, as we all know, he dribbled and shot and passed the ball a lot. It was in his hands a ton. And there wasn't a lot of movement in an offense. And with the Nets, we saw a different evolution of that where he was obviously just playing with more stars. But now in Philly, there's just so much more movement in that offense because it's also dedicated to getting another guy really involved too in Joelle Embed. And it's been really fun to watch, but it's also, I feel like it's a really big blessing for both of these guys to just not

have to do all this. And they are also at the point in their career where they probably understand that. And I've seen a little bit from Trey in the last like two weeks and kind of makes me, like he's, it's just like, these aren't really like the types of things that I guess like you can see in stats, but it feels like he's definitely had some like tunnel vision performances. Like that first game against the Bulls, the Bulls just, like they used, they used Iyo and Giovante Green to just basically lock him down in the perimeter. And he fell into it, right? And it's a little bit make or miss. He made, he made some of those shots, but he also was facilitating way more early in the game. And I think he's getting the ball out of his hands faster and letting

guys like Hunter and Hurtr and Boge get, like, get a couple moves in before they shoot, essentially. You and Waz are perennial optimists when it comes to the Hawks this year. It's just like, I'm just not seeing it. I'm incredibly frustrated by this team, but they're still really talented. I don't necessarily look at myself as a Hawks optimist because if you, that's funny actually, because I come, I have, this is a pretty optimistic take. When I watch them, it is not like that at all. I will say this about them. I have not watched the Hawks as much this season as I did last season when they were like a little bit more of the flavor of the month. They have the potential of an underdog playoff hockey team.

We're like, you know, in hockey when like the goalie gets hot and then all of a sudden the sixth seed is just like cruising to the cup. I don't think that's going to happen to the Hawks, but there is something. That's kind of what Troy is. But there is something about their shooting when it's all clicking. And if he can get that going and get the driving kick going and have that threat of the Collins lob always there, sixers ran into it. as did the Knicks, where it's just like, wow, it's really hard to guard Trey and three or four shooters surrounding him.

If Danilo and a bunch of guys get hot, it is kind of like, oh, you got to have a guy between the sticks and then you never know what can happen. It's like if you can shoot your asses off in the NBA playoffs, like you might get out of the first round, maybe deep into the second. Yeah, I love that metaphor for trade. I think that's exactly how I think about him. It's like, they're the 10th seat and I'm not exactly like, hey, you guys are awesome. but if they end up being like, like who really wants to play them in the first round, you know? So the Sixers are an interesting case of what you're talking about here.

Obviously, Embed's been in the MVP conversation a lot. And I think much of his case has been boiled down to two things. One, everybody loves to see incremental but obvious improvements in players. Like this is something that LeBron taught us to look for is like, did you go somewhere this summer and get in the lab and add something to your game? Yeah. Yeah, and we're over the course of the regular season. And I just mean it's Miami sabbatical.

As the season went on for Embed, I think the playmaking, the ability to basically run the offense, and his quickness with passing out of doubles and like recognizing, you know, where the ball needed to be besides with him any given moment was really key. Then Hardin comes along. And in just the three game sample size that we have so far, they seem to be on. almost two sides of one brain when it's out there on the offense. And, you know, it's been kind of fascinating. I was looking at a bunch of like the super teams, quote unquote, to see like, were any of these teams like heliocentric in the way that you're talking about? Like, were the KD Warriors that way or were the, we're, we're the heat that way? Were the nets at their, in their 16 games together? Did the nets ever kind of feel that way? I think they did with Hardin to some extent.

But watching the Sixers, it's like, it's like a two-man son with three players always look to be in the right space. It's like Danny Green is setting up in the corner and Tobias is setting up on the arc and Maxi is looking for a slash. I know that they're already introducing some Dantonee concepts into the doc offense. Like there's already been some of the hardened coming off like a pin down and like getting a hand off from Embed and just getting downhill and Embed can pop or Embed can roll or Embed can just kind of like do it. There's so much stuff that can come out of that simple action. But once it happens, so much shit goes on. Like it's it's it is kind. And I, I honestly, I, I, I, I, I, Honestly, like, this has been remarked upon that the Sixers have not had a creative perimeter

player like this in 20 years since Iverson. And Iverson also didn't pass all that much, you know, like, so it was, it's been kind of remarkable to watch somebody dribble and shoot and pass this well. Do you feel like Alan Iverson and, who, by the way, answer. And Iguodala have basically combined into this player for you guys. That's a really good way of looking at it. Yeah. but also Johnny Dawkins.

Like he's also able to just like run the offense in a really like smart way. So it's been it's been pretty remarkable. Who else do we want to talk about with this kind of this MVP race, but also this idea of whether or not there's a best player? Before we go away from the Sixers, I think it's like it would be good to like talk about why this is just a good thing for a championship level team, right? The fact that Tyrese and Hardin are playing so well together,

that to me is like obviously something that you would kind of like think about going in like, you know, you're going to have a guy who is normally a point guard coming in and, you know, your best young player is also a point guard. And also, you know, I have to talk about this. The fact that we can just afford to play Matisse Seibel all the minutes in the world right now is just, is just the best. And that is a hardened outgrowth too. I kind of figured that would happen with what was what they were able to do with Bruce Brown and in Brooklyn. Just the amount of spacing that that Thiebel now has, too. It just, it brings them up a number of. other level defensively because like you just know that yeah there'll be a team in the playoffs

that finds a way to exploit the fact that he's on the floor but if he's cutting and you've got like as smart as a passer and playmaker is hearted it's just not going to feel the same way anymore and that's that's exciting and fun for for everyone I think anybody who likes basketball especially me personally so before before this trade Luca and Embed this season would have been top 10 all time in usage. And they both would have gone, they both would have gone up. And I don't think we've had a single season where we've had two guys in the top 10. And, you know, obviously, like, Hardin's always kind of been up there too. His, oh, yeah, that's what it was. His 2018, 2019 season. The last one was his, he was, he was second all time in usage. Number one all time

was the Russell Westbrook Vanity Project. And I'm sorry, I meant the MVP season. Honestly, can I just say something? That season was cool. I think that people talk about it like it was his solo album and that he was just playing sax solos the entire season. Sure, they won the exact same amount of games that they were supposed to win. I'm serious. Their over under was the exact same. And by the end of the season, it was like, he has carried them.

Like they went to the Western Conference. They were one game away from the finals the season before. Anyways, I'm really such a stickler about the basketball that I like. But essentially, like what we do see with these guys at the top, we also have Jordan number five in his 87 season and then we also have AI in 2000 and you know and basically like you have these incredible individual seasons but you don't have a championship with them and that's kind of what I think is going to be the interesting thing to see especially with like the Sixers solved it but the Mavericks also made a trade and I think they're now

trying this is kind of like their next step in figuring out how to maximize Luca and it's definitely working but at the same time like that's kind of the thing that they have to watch out for as well is like you love the fact that he exists and he's you know luca don't like how much of him do you want to go to essentially i saw when they made that christaps trade and people were kind of saying like well these are two smaller contracts like years wise uh with bertans and dinwiddie and and like you know it's not it's not that immovable object that the christaps trade the christaps deals seems to be in this. So this is about like creating longer term flexibility to find somebody else to bring in with Luca. But there's like a little bit of like a Tailu Clippers vibe to the Mavericks

right now where I feel like they have honestly like changed the identity of their team to like this Luca and the shooters model that really, really, really works. And there isn't that Chris Stapp's floor spacing issue of people not necessarily respecting his three and you know, him not necessarily having the toughness that he used to in the interior. I think that the Mavericks are like, talk about hockey goalie dangerous. Like, they are hockey goalie dangerous. They remind me of last year's Hawks. Yes.

And I don't know how far they can take it. And I don't know what's going to happen. Like the Warriors and like when Draymond comes back and where Chris Paul comes back and how for real the jazz are and, you know, all that stuff, all that aside. Like the Mavericks are terrifying right now because I think they could beat any team. Now, whether they can sustain it over a seven game series, I really, I don't know. it's going to be the next big test for Luca. And I think for everything that Luca has going for him to be the quote-unquote face of the league

and maybe to be the person who inherits the LeBron, Jordan, Kobe kind of level of stardom within the league, he's got to kind of obviously do it in the postseason to a greater extent than he has so far. Yeah, I mean, I feel like it could really just come down to how hot their shooters get. Like, I think that's going to be a big part of it. And so they have now won in the last seven games. They lost to the Jazz. They beat the Lakers, which I guess doesn't actually really mean much. But they beat the Warriors.

Warriors didn't have Dremont. And I think that's pretty huge. Sir, you know, the one person we haven't really talked about, and he kind of looms over this discussion in a lot of ways is Janus, defending NBA champion MVP winner. And I think also the person, along with Luca, who probably has a lot of potential to become the next face of the league and the next presumptive best player

unless otherwise notified. How are you feeling about where the bucks are at and specifically where he's at this season? I think like almost everybody on this list, Giannis has made incremental improvements, but he's the one guy where his incremental improvements could actually just be incredibly explosive because of what they are.

He's an improved mid-range shooter this season. He's his inside mid-range game. is probably the most impressive and I think relevant thing that has improved because you can't really build a wall up against him anymore. He'll just kind of get within nine feet and shoot over you. And he can shoot over pretty much anybody. Career high six assists. And he's with Lopez out, he's been asked to do more defensively,

play a kind of different style of defense, be like a little bit more of a rim protector. And they've had injuries. And, you know, like he should probably be the MVP. in my opinion. To me, it's either him or Yokic. We can flip a coin on those guys. But yeah, like in the regular season, they have needed him more this season. And their offense actually like kind of craters without him this season. That's a big difference from last season as well. That's, that is probably somewhat due to the injuries as well. Like, you know, you just don't have that depth coming off the bench anymore. So it's situational. Like I don't really worry about the bucks long term that much.

Like even if they don't get Lopez, I think Portis has grown enough and their defense is versatile enough that they can make up for it. But yeah, like just another guy who is, he's very much, not necessarily like the playmaking hub. But it's also just like the second the ball is in his hands and he's he's dribbling down the court like just attracts all of the attention in the world. Right. So a little bit more in that like you said unicorns earlier, right? He's like the unicorn slash like heliocentric hybrid weird thing that is happening. Does the league need at this point a singular like King Arthur like figure? Or do you think that the league is healthy enough and dispersed talent-wise enough that

you can have a little bit more of a wide range of stars and it doesn't need to be like, boy, I hope LeBron goes to the finals this season because otherwise no one's going to watch kind of thing. You know, because I do feel like that's the mantle that that gets put on guys where it's like you are, you're basically the main box office draw. And to some extent, I think Steph is that right now. Like Steph and LeBron are that still. But whether or not Janus and Luca. Jha.

You know, Jha have the potential to become that. Man, like that's a tough question. I don't know because we haven't really experienced this before, right? Like I think for you and I just getting to watch all these awesome players. on a nightly basis is amazing, but there isn't necessarily somebody who sticks out. I usually just go towards what people around me say when it comes to these conversations. Yeah. And the two things that I've noticed is that when I ask some of my friends who don't necessarily

watch basketball about, or really watch sports, about, like, hey, do you know who this guy is or do you know who that guy is? Like, there's, I've never heard no as often. And I think that's probably one of the things that could be a challenge where you don't necessarily know as a league or even like his media. Like who should, like, as we have this episode, right? Like, who should we actually be focusing on? Right. And, like, there's also players that are a little bit more low-key as well.

Like, they're not going to know who Nicola Yokic is. Or they might not even, like, before he won the finals, weren't really going to know who Janice was either. And Kevin Durant is another guy who is for, now he's now in the last few years, not as much, but was also like. like a very low-key superstar, DeMarrozen as well. So we have a lot of guys that are really good that might not necessarily become like household names because there's almost just like too many of them. I don't know what that means though.

I guess like that we kind of have to see that play out. And like at the end of the day, it turns into, we just have all of these matchups like in the playoffs that by the second round it just becomes must watch. I think that can be really cool. But yeah, I don't really know. I don't really know. What do you think?

I often do cross-sport comparisons. And I think that the NFL is fine. You know, the NFL is lived without Peyton Manning. The NFL is going on without Drew Brees. It'll go on without Tom Brady. I think that there is a degree of like casual box office appeal that maybe you lose when you don't have somebody that most people, if you ask them, if they show them a picture of Tom Brady, they'd be like, that's Tom Brady. He used to play for the Patriots. I think he's still playing.

Like that would be my mom's reaction at 80 years old. My mom doesn't know John Moran is, obviously. But, like, I think in general, like, it's probably cool for the league to go through a period of time where eight different teams could win the finals and 10 different guys could be in contention for an MVP slash be the face of the league. And, you know, you mentioned Durant, which we barely mentioned this entire podcast, partially because he's been injured, partially because this net season has been so bizarre. He's not necessarily a helic-centric guy either, though. No, he's not necessarily helicentric. And I think that that, I wonder whether or not James Harden noted that on the way out the door. like I don't actually like playing off of somebody who is like my job is to score the basketball

ultimately. You know, like maybe he wants to have like a little bit more of a different kind of system going. But, you know, I think Durant in that buck series was was like you could make him the logo of the NBA watching him play that book series last season. You know, like that was among the best like individual basketball performances and runs that I've ever seen in my life. It's just, you're right. He has a kind of lower. key demeanor. I think his, the way he talks about things where he'll be like, it's about hoops and it's almost like this aesthetic pursuit for him and like putting himself in like a perfect basketball situation rather than dragging a team over the mountain top the way like we kind of usually talk

about like players who bring a championship to their to their clubs. It's an interesting conversation. I'm sure we'll know more about it at the end of the season once we see who's actually crown champs. Yeah. Before we get out of here, because this question has been ringing in my ear pretty much since you brought it up at the start of the podcast. You said basically that there were certain guys that you would say, like, hey, if you want to know about the NBA right now, Bird versus Magic, or it's Michael Jordan, or it's LeBron James, if you wanted to talk to somebody right now and say, like, here's how you figure out what the NBA is all about, watch this guy or watch these guys. What, like, what would you say? I would still say, Steph, not only for the obvious entertainment that he provides on a night-to-night

basis and his like awareness of his role as like I'm why all these people came to this arena or are tuning in tonight is like the possibility that I might just pull up from the logo here. And I also think that the way basketball has changed since the Warriors, the advent of the Warriors, um, well, you know, it has a lot to do with Mori Ball and it has a lot to do with spacing and it has a lot to do with the lack of like strong positionality. Like I'd still say like the Warriors are how I would explain basketball over like the last 10 years. What about you? That would have been my answer. even like two months ago, right?

Yeah. Maybe we're heading into an era where that could be changing. We don't necessarily know the answer to that question. Like just watching them last night, Steph had zero points in the fourth quarter. A lot of that obviously has to do with the fact that Draymond is out. And they were also like, they were just doing other stuff. And the Dallas defense was really good too.

But, you know, the Warriors, we criticized them last year for not necessarily being like as intentional as they could be about getting their, getting step shots. And it was kind of a conversation about getting superstar shots when KD was on the team too. Flash forward and sticking to the principles of that system ended up allowing a lot of their role players to be able to understand it. And they were firing off all cylinders when they were healthy.

So I get it. But I also wonder with the Warriors right now, like they are not the same juggernaut that they used to be where they can just be as blasé about these things as they are. They are only one game behind the Grizzlies right now, and that would put them at the three seed. And I just wonder if we're going to see some changes, or I don't know if there should be changes.

It's definitely, it's a question that I'm a little bit more wary about immediately being like, no, just get Steph the ball more than I was, you know, two years ago. But I'm really curious to see where they go from here because, I mean, it's not an emergency. to go from the two seed to the three seed but also like you don't necessarily want it either something changed though and i think partly part of it is obviously draymond not being in part of it is clay causing like a ripple effect onto wiggins's game a little bit i think jordan pools come down to earth

a little bit like there's obviously been like this chain reaction on that team with draymond's absence and clay's return that i i don't think they're out of time to figure it out and obviously if draymond comes back like everything could get solved in a lot of ways i do also I also wonder whether or not we're going to start to hear you guys should have traded Wiseman and Moody. And you should have gone all in on this iteration of the team and not kept commingo, Moody, and Wiseman on your books for this, like, this bridge to the future that Joe Lacom sees. So it'll be. Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if that, that chatter comes back up.

I just wonder if, you know, we don't really know what's going to happen with Draymond. Like, he traveled with him on the road, but his, his timetable is still like, they're not. really putting anything on it that could just be the way they're deciding to deal with it this is one of those weird x-factor seasons too where it's just like draymond chris paul ben simmons paul george like there's a couple of like if he comes back we don't really know like what what's going to happen you know or when they come back we don't know what's going to happen jamal murray and michael porter junior yeah absolutely yeah but if you don't know then it's like well i don't know like do you do you start planning for like a potential playoff run without him i don't know i mean like

I understand Chris, Chris Paul seems to be the most solid. Like, you can book that return. Like, it's just a hand injury and he's going to come back at the end of the regular season. Everybody else seems to be like Simmons is week to week. Dremont's caffin back are really tough. I don't know what's up. Like Murray blew his knee out. So I don't know when he's coming back.

Like, it's going to be like a very interesting close to the regular season beginning of the playoffs. If you've got several all-star level players coming back to work. Yeah. And I guess the playoffs and. And also this MVP race and like these questions, they, it's weird to hit March and have them all be such an unknown. Yeah. So I'm glad we dug into some of it. Me too.

We'll be back next week. Thank you so much to Chris Sutton for producing us. You can listen to the Ringer NBA show pretty much five days a week. And we've also got mismatch, Ryan and Bill. So check it all out. We'll talk to you Friday.