The Ringer NBA Show - What Draymond Green’s Suspension Means for the Warriors. Plus, Bomani Jones on Today’s Sports Media Environment | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

Logan and Raja discuss Draymond Green’s recent antics, the indefinite suspension handed down to him by the league, and what’s next for the Golden State Warriors forward (1:50). Next, the guys award their Real Ones of the Week (32:44). Later, Emmy-winning journalist and ‘The Right Time’ podcast host, Bomani Jones, joins the show to talk about transitioning to podcasting full time, how he gauges success as a creative in the modern-day media landscape, what he learned from his experience at HBO, and much more (36:12). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Guest: Bomani Jones Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For all your fantasy football needs, check out the ringer fantasy football show with me, Craig Horlebeck, along with Danny Hyfitts and Danny Kelly. That's the ringer fantasy football show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Bell there. Thursday, Real Ones Just Us, but Monty Jones on the next segment. All right, we're here to talk about one thing and one thing only Roger. And that is a man, none other. And Draymond Green, who has been suspended indefinitely by the league. after throwing a roundhouse punch to the face of you said, Nerkich. And I'm just going to paint the picture of how I saw it. I don't know how you saw it yet, Roger, but I'm playing video games, right?

And one of the homies in the group chat just sends, damn, drag my pus the shit out of him. And I'm like, so I go into the other room, right? And I come in just in time for the replay. And I see the replay. And I'm like, oh, shit, he did punt someone. punch someone. That, that happened. I was a disbelief because there was like, no way, Raja, would he do this after the five games of suspension he already got for

putting someone in a headlock, right? And then the game before that gets someone, gets ejected. And then I went to go see him play against Sacramento. I think it was, I forgot it. You guys can go check it. And he gets like on the borderline of getting another rejection. And it feels like every three months, we go through this same charade, Raja.

Where are we with this Drayman situation? What is the correct course of action? He is suspended indefinitely with things that he has to do with benchmarks that he has to achieve before he can get back on the floor. What is next?

What's going on? What are we doing? I don't know. I mean, are uncharted waters. I don't know. Let me, let me start by saying I am, I don't love indefinite suspension. I don't, I don't love that. I mean, it's too much of a gray area. It's too murky. I think it sets, it sets precedent moving forward for other people in the league when there's not a standard amount of time that you're suspended for an infraction, even if that escalates, you know, per infraction. Give me something standard. Indefinite, I don't like that. I'm just, do I understand why it had to be a significant reaction from the league? I do, but I don't,

I just got to say on the other hand, right, I don't love indefinite. Look, where we are, I think there are a few things at play, right? Clearly, Draymond has impulse control issues. I have had impulse control issues in my life. So I know what that looks like. He just gets really, you know, lost in the moment. And he does wild shit. Now, that's not to be excused. And I don't mean to make it sound like I'm about to do that.

But I told you on this pod, when he punched Jordan Poole in the face, if his impulse control problems have risen to that, degree in his own locker room where he would assault someone like that, there needed to be a very clear message sent by his team if they had any hopes of curbing his, you know, his antics, right? And they did not do that. And it is not their fault, but they certainly have not helped. Because this isn't something that just rears its head at game time. It's not. It's something that You've seen patterns. You've seen, you've seen evidence of this.

And this could be, again, I don't know. I'm not in his world. You know, I've heard some people come out and say, like I heard KD say, you know, that's not the Dremont I know. So I'm not saying this is who he is all the time. I think the impulse control thing is something that you just have issues with, right? Like, I had him when I was younger.

I had him when I was in the league and I have them now at times. Like, I don't know that that goes away. You learn how to deal with them better. But to this magnitude, this could be something that is relatively new for Draymond. And then again, I would say that if your teammates and the people that you love and regard as your family in that building are around you to the degree that they should be during the season, they would have seen a change in you.

Whether that started with the Jordan Poole or it started before that, there is evidence there. If you were to get a forthright accounting from people in that building, they would tell you either, yeah, this is who he is all the time, or we saw a change in him at X, Y, and Z point of time. And in either case, it's on you when something like that punch in the face to Jordan Poole. Like we all saw that. I don't give a, I don't care what Jordan Poo said to him. I don't care what that man said to him.

Like, you're supposed to protect everyone in your locker room the same way. Sticks and stones, my boy. Like when you ran over there and did that to him, I just felt like that was the appropriate time for you to be able to do that and send a message to him where he could, where he couldn't like hide from it. It was there. It was on front street. It was for the world to see. And so, you know, again, it sounds like I'm blaming I'm not. But when his background with these issues and his experience say there's very little that's going to happen to me when I lose control, again, I draw an analogy all the time to raising kids because that's where I'm at in my life.

I can't be surprised when they act crazy out in public and curse at me. if I allowed him to do it all the time at the house. Like, that shit baffles me when parents are out there looking like they've seen a ghost when their child is disrespecting them in front of people at the grocery store. Like, why do you look like you've seen a ghost? You see that ghost every day. But clearly that's what he does at home. Yeah.

Yeah. And so there's a lot of that going on, man. And look, if Draymond does have something going on in his world that's caused this to be like more of an issue for him to manage, and it's whatever he's got going on is pulling at his bandwidth in a way that he can't control himself, then I hope that he does find the kind of help that he might need to deal with whatever he's got going on. If he doesn't, then, you know, I mean, I guess when I came on and said, I don't love indefinite, I guess you almost have to because if that's where he's at, if there's nothing else going on, and we're just to a point now where the suspensions and the punishment don't mean a thing to Draymond,

what else are you going to do? made a lot of great points. One of the points that I want to start with is just the cyclical nature of how the warriors have treated Draymond and his antics throughout the years. From the first moment, 2016, or even before that, because there have been antics behind the scenes, even before the stuff that has boiled over into the forefront, every single time that he has done something. The warriors have for whatever reason, and it's interesting to do this, and I'll get

to why in a second, but like every step of the way, they have doubled down, they have emboldened, they have said, this is the, this is Draymond, we are going to take. We like the balance of the, the fire that he gives. He is somebody that is an important part of our team, and we need that edge at a certain point. We need that. And it's interesting for me because this isn't, it's one thing to do this for your best player. And we've seen this for years with, you know, best players getting extra privileges. It is one thing for that. But for someone like Draymond, who is probably, is a very important piece, but isn't a, isn't Steph, isn't Kevin Durant, isn't Clay Thompson has continued to,

get superstar treatment from within the organization and has been able has been defended by the organization and it's been interesting because like obviously I'm around them a little bit more than you where they even with the contract over this year right where you have an out to it's like they have a he has a spell on the golden state warriors because I'll tell you this even over this last summer over last season you talk to people around the organization it's It's fuck, man.

Draymond's at his shit again. Drayman's doing this again. Draymond is doing that again. Man, it's ridiculous. And then two weeks later, you signed him to a contract four years with the player option, giving him all the control when you had an out to get him out of the organization if you were that mad at him, right? And what happened after the Jordan Pool situation?

It was an indefinite suspension. And then what else happened a week later? He only missed one game. That was a preseason game. because they wanted him to be on the floor when he got his ring, even though his behavior suggested that he didn't deserve that, right? And then you have this erosion of team chemistry because people feel that they have to pick sides, especially last year where they see this thing that happens, right?

They see, like, they saw it, they saw it more than we did. They saw the punch more than we did because they were right there. And then they have to pick a side because of the side. like, well, Draymond's not getting in trouble. And there's other times when, and I don't want to just, I want to be balanced in this. Draymond, there are good times with Draymond. He is a good leader at times, right? And so, and he has that charisma that people want to be alongside of him.

But on the other side, they feel like they have to have this balance. Do we go on team Draymond? Because that's where the team is always, they always have their back. The team always seems to have Draymond's back. Or do we have Jordan's back because, you know, we saw what has. happened and he is our teammate. That is the division inherently that Draymond has brought to this team over the last few years. And the difference between now and back in the day is back in the day, you had the David West, you had the Andre Aguadale, you had the Sean Livingstons who were actually

leaders in that locker room and could absorb those outbursts. Now, the leader in the in the locker room is punching dudes in the face and then setting a bad example after five games, after five game suspensions and then punching someone in the face and showing no remorse for either one of those. I will say in the Nerkitz one, he said he apologized to NERCIS, but if you go look back, look at that presser, he was not contrient. He was not, he even said it now with, y'all know how I be. I don't be apologizing if I think I'm right. It's a systematic thing that has continued to erode this. And it's going to, the front office at this point, has proven that they are not strong enough to absorb this.

And it's going to come to a point. And if it hasn't already, where we're going to see the erosion of this. And short of Steph Curry pushing the button and say, yo, it's time. We need to break this all the way down. Trade everyone. This is going to continue to happen because there's no one in that front office that is going to do it for him. And he has the most power, Steph, that is.

And so this is going to be a slick. thing. It don't matter what meetings that they have. Steve Kerr said he had an hour long meeting with Draymond after the five-game suspension to talk about his importance to the team and tell him this stuff is wrong. That's not going to work. I don't know what's going to work. That's why I lead towards indefinite suspension

because they don't have any. What else are they going to do? They just suspended a five games, Rasha. I understand. I'm not saying that I'm not saying that I can't see why it needed to be a suspension. I'm uncomfortable with the precedent that it says when you

could just indefinitely suspend someone. Like that, that opens Pandora's box to, to like, what would be the next infraction that somebody might, you know, it's not necessarily a Draymond case for the rest of the league.

Yeah, this is just what you're setting as precedent for what the league can do when they want to do it. Look, I don't know specifically where they are contractually, as a team, what type of flexibility they have. So forgive me.

Like, I didn't break down all the numbers. of stuff coming into this pod because this was going to be about, you know, Dremont specifically. But I just want to say that up front. I don't know all the ins and outs. I don't know, you know, this is what I do know, that most athletes, and I would imagine most people in general, there comes a point at their relative level, hear me, we're not all on the same level, but at their relative level, and Draymond's very accomplished and he's won championships and he's meant a lot to that organization. But even in that space, there comes a time when your talent,

relative to your distraction and headache is not in balance. And you're typically the last person to understand that. It goes hand in hand with players overvaluing who they are as they get older. And we have a classic case of that going on right now. Coupled with you've empowered him to be this. And now you have a mess. Right. And so I understand, you know, as I've, as I've,

played for Hall of Fame dudes and a lot of them twice. And I've sat back and coached with other guys at other levels and watched my son's coaches and even coached a little bit myself. I get empowerment. And I understand having a soft touch and a deft touch and knowing when to push a button and when not to push a button. And I understand all of that. But I think that depends in a lot of instances on the person you're dealing with.

It's not a uniform, or it shouldn't be a uniform policy. When you have good conscientious people that really care and can then have an ability to reflect and understand that they made a mistake and not transgress again. And they're going to curb themselves. When you have those type of people, I understand 100%. When you have people, and Mike DeAntonia, I used to say this sometimes about our offensive philosophy where, you know, I would say to Mike Heyman, like Mike, you know, there's four of us out there, like, really sharing the ball. You could tell we care about each other. You could tell that the ball's not going to stick.

Like, it's just flying around. And said individual, like, four times hadn't made the swing swing. We're like, it's not just for me. Like, there'd be somebody else in the corner. I swung it the first time. He got to swing that. And Mike would be like, yeah, you're right. But I don't want to tell him that and have him, you know,

not competent the next time he shot it. And I get that when you have good people who aren't inherently super selfish. But once you get that, one bad apple in there that is super selfish, that philosophy doesn't necessarily work for him because he don't give a fuck. I mean, you saw that in the game after, like, you've seen the immediate bench after the game.

But, but, but, but, so let me take that. That was just a son's thing. Let me take that back to Dre. And so, like, in a, in a locker room where, where you got really good dudes, Draymond included now, mind you, like, he's been a great leader for that team, a spiritual leader and all of that,

operating in the space of there not being any real punishment for these major infractions might work for Steph Curry or Clay Thompson or Andrew Wiggins or anyone else who may have an ability to go back and be like, yo, I, man, that was not a good look, dude. Come in the next day and be like, fellas, look, I let us down. You don't see that all the time as a fan. Like, people don't see that all the time as a fan. People don't see like when I do dumb shit the next day I come in and really, really be

groveling like, hey, guys, I really fucked up. I am really sorry. Like, I know I, like, that's a thing. Draymont doesn't appear to have the ability to do that. I mean, he does. He hides it well because he gets up at the press conferences and just, you know, doubles down and, and really is defiant in the face of clear fault. He's like, no, sorry, don't apologize, right?

And so fine. Hey, that's fine. I'm not, you can be who you are. But I would just say then that leadership style has to accommodate for that personality. And they don't do that well in Golden State. Like, and they do a lot of shit great, not that. Yeah.

And that's the thing. And I think, and, you know, a lot of the reason, I think maybe like 99.9% of the reason, and I say this on other pods, I've said this here millions of times, 99% of the reason why Draymond is still there is because it's Steph Curry. The reason why he, Drayman got that last deal, large part because of it's, Steph. The reason why Jordan Pool got traded out, largely because of Steph said, all right, this is what we got to do, right? And if you talk to people around there, there's a fear that Steph has of playing without Draymond, right? And I mean, he's played a lot without Draymond this

season because of those decisions, right? And there has to be, I think that there has to be a look at the mirror from Steph just to be like, yo, man, I can't I can't do this anymore. And every time I go on to either the Chase Center or I see it on television, they always pay it over to Steph after Dremont does some

dumb shit. And Steph has this look on his face of frustration. Let me put this plain and simple for Steph Curry. I put this plain and simple. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Logan, but I feel very strongly put this plain and simple to Steph Curry. Let's get it. Steph, I understand, man. That dude has, he, he

He rides for you. He rides with you. You guys have accomplished a lot. He is not you. He is not you. And he is not on your level. There are levels to all of this shit. He's on a different level than a lot of people.

He ain't on Steph Curry level. So if step Curry can't say to Draymond, hey, my boy, I ride with you. You know I fuck with you. You know I get down. You know I will hold you down almost till the end. But we are very close to that end. I need you to cut it out. If Draymond doesn't understand who.

Raymond is in this relationship and can't say, hey, oh, wait, that's where you're at. Fair. Let me stop. If he can't do that, then Steph Curry, he don't really understand what's really happening, bro. And it's time. Now, I'm not saying it's time. I'm saying if Draymond don't get that dynamic, that you are Steph Curry and you are the one that makes that tick.

So when you say, hey, my boy, I need you to stop. And here are some of the reasons. You know that nice new bag you enjoying? I had a hand in that. You know why we're still together? I had a hand in that. If he doesn't get that dynamic, then we got a problem, Steph, and it's time.

Now, if you can have a heart to heart and for some reason you have not to this point, then you have not stepped in and said, hey, listen, Dre, let's go to dinner. Me and you, nobody else. Don't start talking about it right away. Get a bottle deep. Order a second bottle of wine.

Then start talking about it. If you haven't done that yet, then you need to do it now. Figure out if he understands the power dynamic in place. That was well said. I think that was what I was getting about in my diplomatic balance. Surveillanceic way. I'm not diplomatic at this point, Dawn. Listen, there's a power structure in every organization.

I talk about it. Like, it exists for a reason. It always has. It always will. It's not fucking democracy. It doesn't work like that. Some people are more powerful than others. And you're really close to the top.

You ain't the top. There is going to be a meeting. between Rich Paul, Mike Dunleavee, believe Steve Kerr, Draymond Green, and just team brass. What is going to be said and what should be said, Roger? I don't, what is going to be said? What can be said?

Hey, we're here again. Why are we here again? Dremont, please tell us why we're here again. I mean, what could you say to him? I'd like to hear where he's coming from. What, Drey, what's going on with you, man? What's up in your world? this, you know, but what's ultimately going to happen, Logan, is you're going to have some

sort of anger management, right? Like, you're going to check the boxes. That's what you're going to do. You're going to do the song and dance. And once he's gone through all of that and there's no real way to definitively quantify whether or not he's rehabilitated or not. Yeah. It's, you know, we just saw this. Honestly, we saw this. Honestly, we saw this where, hey, man, A, Jha, Jha, take one course, maybe one class. Was Jaws indefinite to? I don't know. It was a suspension that was that I don't know the specifics,

but I do know it was a suspension that was related to benchmarks being checked before he can get on the floor. Similar to this season, whereas other thing of benchmarks until you get on the floor. Well, if Jaws was indefinite, sorry to cut you up, But if Jaws was indefinite, then the president was already set. So, like, what I'm saying about Draymond would just, I would take that back to and apply it there. Once you start the indefinite, my boy, and then you got to do the counseling and all of that. Like, I just need definitive suspensions.

It's all I'm saying. Sorry. How was, so my question is for you, because you were, you played under a different regime, the David Sturb regime. What is the difference you've seen between this NBA regime currently in terms of discipline versus way back in the day when you were. a player in NBA um i mean the the the the the suspensions are more significant for sure you know we were we were getting yeah not maybe not maybe i should i shouldn't necessarily say that i mean i was getting i got a game for the kobe thing yeah i don't i don't i don't know i think i think if i had to not in it so it's hard to tell you for sure but i guess

what i would say is is it seems to be more rehabilitative maybe like Adam Silver seems to be interested more in the rehabilitation of the of the offending party. If he's a repeat offender, then they seem to have been when David Stern was there. David Stern's was more just straight punitive. Like, boom, let's keep it moving. I'm going to punish you and let's keep it moving. I don't know which one's better. I'm not saying one's better than the other.

Do you know what I mean? But like Adam Silver, I think deep down and I don't know him, but I'm just watching the way he deals with the league might care about the players a little bit more as a collective. But David Stern cared about certain players. I have a lot more agency of partnership with Adam Silver than they ever deal with David Stern. For sure. Full stop. And so just want to also say John Morant got suspended eight games, then had a, then something else happened.

And he got suspended 25 games to start this season. Okay. That was what happened. And language is important. like right like put a number on it put 15 to 20 on dray i'm good what would you have given him though what would you have given him i probably given 15 games yeah i probably would i mean listen that was just a terrible look i even the even the excuses he gave for why he did it he said that that he was trying to sell contact and that nerkitz was holding him on his hip and it was like

and i get it there's a lot of contact that happens in the mb a we have both seen a you have it, I have watched it for a long time. That was very much light work. That NERC, whatever that was, that was very much light work. And he just did a 360 accurate punch to the face. You are correct.

And I think Draymond was also correct in saying it was just unlucky. Now, hear what I'm saying to you. It was going to be a wild play regardless. Like, that's more than selling. Your selling of a foul is so crazy.

that it looks like a kung fu movie. Like that's what his selling of Fow's looks like. So it was going to be wild regardless, but why he's unlucky has to do with where he made the contact. That's the unlucky part because I don't think he aimed to hit him in the face. Do you understand? Now, if you connect and that's like lower on his shoulder by what's maybe eight inches, 10 inches,

we don't nearly have the same visceral reaction to that. You don't. That just happened to hit him in the face. And once you hit him in the face, now it looks like you intended to punch him in the face. I do not believe he intended to like punch that man in the face, but you did. Jeez, it's like we just had a vibrant moment of you choking someone.

And that's what I, when Draymond says the other thing about like, why should Joe Dumars, you know, take past. things into consideration on new punishments. It's like, this ain't even, like, this is this season. This is like, just over a month ago, right?

Like, these things continue to happen. And it is part of your reputation. And yes, six games back, dog. Yeah, you're six games back. And I just don't know. So I'll say he gets to spend it 15 games, right? What is the correct course of action in your eyes? Because in my opinion, I know the locker room was like,

because you saw it on the bench. there were so many people behind him after he did it was just like fucks raymond again man damn dude what is the reaction when he comes back do you do you do you just follow what step is doing like where step is lead is on this how do you welcome him back into a locker room after repeated offenses and you allegedly want to win a championship i that's out the window right now they're talking they're talking about what they can do to get off of him right now okay i'll guarantee you that I'll guarantee you that those conversations are being had. To what level they rise, I don't know.

But they're exploring options. Trust me. They're too deep into that salary cap. Like their situation is like all in pot committed this year. And this is what we're doing. They're 10 and 13, Roger. And this is how you reward like us for for throwing the bag at you and saying we'll ride with you right now. Like, trust me, those conversations are being had at some level.

I don't know what office they stop at. I don't know if it gets to the point where they're called and step about it. Probably not, but they're being had. How you reopen the locker room to him as a, as a teammate? I mean, it's just business as usual. I mean, trust is eroding, though. Trust is eroding. Like, look, you get suspended a game and I know what people are going to say.

Like, I'm the pot call in the kettle black. Look what I did to Kobe. Look, what happened there? First of all, I didn't have any, I didn't have any, I didn't have a track record of doing that. I didn't have a track record of doing that. That was one time. And if I had continued to do stuff like that and continued to get suspended,

I would have expected for my team not to have my back and for the trust to a road also because I am consistently putting myself. You might have been out of the league too. Oh, yeah, I was fucking with the wrong one for sure. Dremont's just lucky he ain't, like, you know, I was fucking with coffee. That's the wrong one. The third was not playing with me.

But the point is, in that moment, every player and every athlete, every person understands, you can be pushed to a point where even if it's not in your nature to put yourself first, you do put yourself first. Everyone's done that. And if you're contrite and you're like, yo, man, I won't do that again. I'm going to learn from that. I will not put myself before this team again. I'm not going to do that.

People are fine. Everybody makes mistakes. Like, we're American, bro. We love a comeback story. bro, pick yourself up and let's get it right. Don't do it no more. But he's got a track record and a history suggests that he does not give a shit

and he will continue to do that. And so the trust is going to be eroded, but you just open the locker room back up to him. Now here's the scary part. If you're on his team and maybe you're not great with him, like, you know, you're not in the inner circle. And I can't say definitively,

but this is why, you know, like Kobe would take your heart if you looked afraid. He was trying to, bully you, right? MJ would do the same thing. He would try to keep you in fear. Fear is a very powerful thing, bro. Like if you could get somebody afraid of you in an athletic competition, you're already leveled up, you know, and you try to keep him in that box. So I say that to say that, like, people in his locker room might be slightly afraid to compete against him because, and look, don't hear me. I'm not saying they're going to be like, oh, shit,

I don't want to practice. There's Draymond. I'm not, I'm not saying that. But there is is something deep down where you might be really competing against him if you're a young player on that team and you might not feel all the way safe of what the reaction might be if you give a physical play against him, that would be warranted to be in protect yourself mode. Or, or, or they're not scared of him no more and they take it to him. And if he do try that shit, they're just tired of it. Fair. But the organization has showed you that like, like, The organization has showed you that they're on that side. So if you're a young player, what I just described,

that would have to come from somebody who is established in the league. Yeah. You're a first year player. You're sitting on that Golden State bench. And you're on your first contract. Yeah, you're out there banging with Draymond, like, just trying to get a good sweat in and show that you deserve to play. And he turns around and, like, swings one at you.

And now you're in a fight. That's not a good look for you as a young player. Like, you know what I'm saying? You're trying to stay in the league. And so I would just say that it, you know, there's a lot, there are a lot of ramifications of, of, of those actions. And they're not all like based in what does the league have to do in suspension. I mean, that resonates through the locker room in a way that you don't really understand what the effects of that could be. Like, you just don't.

I will say this. A lot of I told you so is from the camps of Jordan Poole and Kevin Durant. A lot of, I told you about dude. I told you all about dude. Hey, y'all didn't want to listen. Hey. again, man. I know this has been a bashed

session on Dremont and quite frankly. I think it's deserved though. It's deserved. And I have defended Dremont in the past, but damn. Like, what do you want? Like, how much, what could you say? I know. I know it's been that. And I can still say that,

that, you know, I think he's, you know, I think he's been integral to their success there as a team. Like they, he is the heart and soul kind of of what they do emotionally. you got it you you got to tighten that up my boy like we can't we can't I don't know man like it's I feel I really do feel bad because I think he's just I see a dude who looks out of control yeah definitely you know and again this is coming from a person who had control issues at times so I know what added control looks like yeah like I've seen myself out of control going back and looking at it like bro you were tell me if you said to me Raj tell me what happened I'd be like I don't know it's it's it's a

It's a tough situation all the way around that we will be monitoring. I think that here's the thing. One last thing. You know, we got to get to ruin a week. We got to get Roger out of here. The thing what is, and I go back to that Sacramento game early in the season, they're up 20. He gets it, and he's playing great. Drayman's playing great.

And then immediately gets a technical foul. Then bodies up on a dude, gets a foul call, immediately erodes all the momentum that they have that he helped create. That's been Draymond this season. where plays really well shooting 50% from the field, 42% from 3, really being a great contributor, but fucking all that up with the antics, that's what it is right now.

That's where we're at. And I think it's too far gone for the Warriors. I think that they need to figure that out and get him, I think it might be time. But we'll see what happens. Let's get to the real one of the week. I'm going to go start off. I don't think we're going to have the real one,

the same real one. So I'm going to start off. But give it to Jel me. Who I think was, we saw Jemmy in Vegas. I think that Jomey was the MVP of the end-season tournament. He asked questions to Adam Silver to LeBron James. He got pictures on the social. He held it down on the social team.

All my ringer NBA social folks know how a great a job that Jemie did. And you know what we like on Real Ones, Rob. We like people who hustle and grind. And that is all Jomey did in Vegas. did his thing. He put up 60, 25, and 15 put up wilt numbers. I'm really proud of him. You know how, you know how much we love Jemey on the real ones. I think he has. Bridgetton boy. Keep killing it, bro. There's only beginning. We see you. Jomey, real one of the week. Good shit, Jomey. I want to leave it there. Oh, I'll leave it there. Jomey. It's nice to meet you,

Jomey. Yes, sir. Nice to meet you, Jome. Um, listen, man, my real one of the week is going to go to LSU quarterback, Jaden Daniels, went into Heisman. You know, a highly touted high school quarterback went to ASU had various levels of success. When he left, you know, teammates, there were some viral videos of teammates kind of clowning

him and saying he wasn't that good and so on and so forth. And, you know, this year, all he did was go out there and throw for 3,800 yards on 60, what, 72% completion percentage. He accounted for 40 some touchdowns like and he won the Heisman. And it's not any shade at ASU and

any way, shape, or form. Like, those teammates had a right to feel how they feel. But I liked that he went back to the drawing board. He went to LSU. By all accounts, he's a great young dude. He was really nice to my son, Dia when Dia was on his visit there. And I'm happy for him, man. And he's a real one of the week.

And I'm wishing the best in all of the upcoming workouts and pro days. And I don't know if he's going to the draft combine. But all of that, man, kill it, young blood. Jada Daniels, it's real one of the week. Yes, sir. All right, man. We'll see you guys next week. but money on the next segment talk to y'all soon bye

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And we are back with the one and only Beaumani Jones. Host of the right time with Beaumani Jones. You can listen and watch that on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Let's start with that, Beaumani. It's funny. The last time we talked to you was the in the middle of the HBO show and the run up to that.

And I want to get to that in a second. But it seems like you're transitioning back to an old friend, right? With the podcast space and also the video element of it. What's that transition been like for you as you get into the next stage of your career? Well, like, what's interesting about it for me is that for most of the time I've done the podcast, the big part of the production was to make it as easy as possible because I had so much other stuff that was going on, that it needed to be something that didn't require that much of me. Now I have more time to give it, right?

But it's built to be as easy as possible. So I try to find ways to kind of expand it, like this counterintuitive thing of making it more difficult, or I got more time to work on some other things, you know, and I got to get myself like the discipline to go over and to do some of those, like, other types of things. But the transition, to me, I feel like I'm largely making the same product. I'm staying in the same podcast. I'm doing it from the same room that I used to do it from and set up a little bit different.

So it doesn't feel that much different to me. But what is interesting for me to observe is that like I'm in the room right now where I do the podcast. Now, when I was doing it for ESPN, I was doing it like I'm doing with you where I just got the computer, the laptop on a computer. I put in the, put in the dongle into the MacBook. And I put the, what you would call it? The webcam on top of it. And we had a microphone set up that was going to. going through some other stuff that ran through a thing or ran through or whatever, but it almost

felt like I was doing something like with the homies. Now, when I do this show, which you can't see behind this computer is, I got a camera on a tripod with a teleprompter it, right? I got lights that is set up here. And that doesn't seem like a big deal, but the reason I bring it up is it feels when I do it more like doing a television show. And it's very interesting how when you change the devices that you use, the way that you approach them also has a way of change. It's like when you put somebody on speakerphone, you've got a tendency to speak up louder even though you ain't really got to do that. The speakerphone has already accounted for that, but that's how you talk with your speakerphone. So now I'm doing a podcast with TV stuff.

And I notice when I go back and look at it that I am different because it is different. Just like changing those little things really matters in that way. what's interesting because it's like during the pandemic you really saw that transitional phase from what we see as like linear television to what we're doing right now you know we have the video show pat mcgrife is a big example on a grand level but you you you kind of are seeing people doing stuff with higher production value from their the seat of their pants right now just at their home and all these different things how what is that like now to be able to do that from it's like a very of if you put around the horn onto your YouTube now, what have you seen now with the transition of how we have kind of starting to make content as opposed to when we did pre-pandemic? And how did the pandemic kind of accelerate where we're at right now? Well, the pandemic got us here because we had no idea how long people were going to be stuck

in their houses. We had to figure out really quick how to do things at people's houses. And then once you figured out that people could do these things from their houses, it got a lot more difficult to convince them to get their ass. is in their car and come to work, right? So a lot more people have, like, much better home setups, which can be good in a lot of ways. Like, I think it is good for me for the kind of show that I do.

But I also know that, like, interview stuff that I do would probably be better if people were in studio with me. But I'm not running the kind of operation that would allow me to, like, book a bunch of book a guess where I always got somebody in studio with me every Wednesday, right? Like, we're not at that point where I could do that. So it wouldn't make sense in that way. The only thing that worries me about the spread and the increase in production value is, this is something I think, I think you and I have talked about this a little bit,

like as it comes to music or stuff like this. So I may have been talking somebody else about this. But, like, it's easier than ever to make a competent rap beat, right? Like, you can get on one of these programs or whatever, put a couple things together, and you can make a basic competent rap beat. It used to be very, very hard. to do such a thing. And since it was very, very hard to do such a thing, you could weed out a lot of people that we needed to get out of here because it was so hard just to do something basic.

But once you make it easy to do something basic, you got a lot of bums who got no reason to clear out. They can hang around as long as they need to because they can get to that very easy, basic place, right? So many people now can produce things that have a high production value and that look good, but how good are they actually when you get down to the content? And so, So to me, we got a lot of stuff that looks really good in snippets that can bounce around on social media. Yeah. What that may be doing is crowding out some people who make really good stuff, like hard stop, like really, really, really good things.

But no, it's great that the technology is there. It's good that a lot of people have access to it. You don't want gatekeeping to keep people out. But you also do want some measure of curation to increase. increase, like to keep the quality control up to a certain place. And one thing that did help keep quality control up before was limiting the access people had to the best tools. Like to get to the best tools, you had to prove yourself to all these different people along the way to get access to the best tools. It's still like that to a degree, but you can get reasonable facsimiles

of the best tools now for pretty cheap and be out here making bullshit, but it'll look good. Where do you, how do you, so that goes into my next question because you're right, the just like music. In media right now, the barrier entry is very low. Like, anyone can get into it right now. If you have the set of equipment, you have a webcam, if you think you have something to talk about. So in this day and age, how do we gauge success?

I know that Netflix just put out, at least from the creative standpoint, they put out their numbers. But as a creative right now, you own your own show. You are on YouTube. How do you gauge success with your own show? And how are we? How do we do a rating system? Is there a rating system in place that should be made?

It seems like we're in this transitional period as a media society right now. Yeah, that's an interesting question because for me, I think because of the wide variance that we have out here now, success is much more individualized. And so, like, my bosses are going to gain success based on whether or not the money they pay me is in line with the money that they bill off of this show. that is always going to be a bad that they use for success. For me, I'm in a slightly different situation because quite honestly, I made a lot of money at my last stop. I don't need it that bad, right? I'm in a position where doing the things that I want to do is that that's more important than anything else. And so to me, there is just a measure of success in the fact that the show that I have exists, to be honest. There is a measure of success every time the paycheck hits all in the first,

15th, whatever fucking day it is, right? Like, there's success there. So for me, it's a little different. For other people, what I have a difficult time telling about it is, like, for whom is this a hobby and for whom is this a passion? Like, when you talk about podcasts and video stuff in particular, like, is this what you do or is this something you do? And part of why it becomes very, very difficult to tell whether this is what somebody does versus something somebody does is it's so hard to make money off of this if it's the thing you do that I can't assume that just because you got this other job that you ain't for real about doing this stuff. Everybody might wind up having three, four jobs in the grand scheme of it, right? But if you're doing it as a hobby,

then success, I would think, is have you built a community, right? Like, do you have a set of people that have conversation around what it is that you do? Do you have a set of people? Do you have a set of people that is that you do. Do you have that? Okay, cool. Go from there. If you try to do this for a living, are you making money to keep your head above water, right? And then from there, the community question goes to every step. Because to me, the most, the way that I'm most likely to gain success off into things that I do, particularly digitally, like TV's a little different. But what digital stuff is, is there a community that is built up around this? Use those a morning show called the Morning Jones on series. I have no idea how many people listen to the Morning Jones. But I know

that one of our list that said he was having a birthday party in Chicago one weekend, and we had 15 people show up to the town of Hammond, Indiana, because another person was there covering a fight, and we had people booking rooms at a super eight in Hammond, Indiana, because they just wanted to be down to the community was going to hang out. You ain't going to tell me nothing numerically that says that that show was not successful. And I got people that I'm still cool, wouldn't still close to for over a decade off of that show. You're not going to tell me that that was not successful. I have numbers with the right time that indicate a level of success and unique listeners and and growth.

We have all those things that have popped off at various points with it. But to me, the success of it truly is the community that surrounds it. Because once you get the community, the community would travel with you. And so it's something we took the right time away from a major company to a newer company, but we still brought the people with this because the community is what matters. Like the fact that the fact that the audience of this show is not just being. people who were at ESPN. That is success to me. So we're talking to you a few months after the HBO show did not go as planned. What was the biggest thing that you learned from that

experience? I know this was, you know, it was your dream. It was your dream to have a show on HBO. So on one hand, it is a dream fulfilled. But on the other hand, you would, you would have wanted it to be bigger and longer tenure than it is. Was, what was your biggest learning lesson from that experience? Well, I want to kind of play around. with the idea, and I'm just doing this because I'm thinking about just kind of like how it hit me. We talk about it didn't go as planned. And the truth is for me, it did go as plan within the limits of what I could plan. Right? Sure. So they gave me a season, six episodes. My plan was to do the best six episodes that I could. I did the best six episodes that I could. I feel like we accomplished that plan.

Then from there, they gave us another season with 10 episodes. Okay? And I had a clear picture of what I wanted to do with those 10 episodes. And we did those 10 episodes. I never planned on season three. You know what I mean? Like, for me, this was always, I can't believe I'm here. I am like, I never ever stopped being present in the most.

moment of doing that show. And so, yes, I would have liked to have done that show for 10 years. I don't know if I would have been capable of doing that show for 10 years, but I would have loved to be the person to say, you know what, we're done with doing this now rather than the network making the call of doing it. But as I look at it, and I think I say this, because I think this is something a lot of people could stand to hear. I do think it went as planned on my end. and I view it unequivocally as being successful for me. I don't work. Hey, I don't work for Warner Brothers.

I don't know what the hell's success is to them, too. If you read anything about what's happened with the current regime that's at Warner Brothers, what went on, I have no, I can't take them, them deciding that they didn't want to bring that show back. If you look at all the other things that they brought back, it's hard to take it person, right? I can't, I can't go look at that and be like, well, damn, if I had done this, this, this, this, and this differently, they would have kept a show. I have no idea.

I don't think any of the same thing necessarily would have mattered. You were a victim of a transition. You were a victim of where we're at as a media society. We don't know where what, we don't even know what's going to happen in a year from now, it seems like. No, they got no idea. But again, but I can't say I was a victim because I was a winner. Because I got to do this in the first place, right? Like you have to realize for two years, I could legitimately say that my professional peers,

John Oliver, Bill Maher, Trevor Noah, up and down lists. And I firmly believe, not only were they my peers, that if you looked at the product that I put together, I wasn't as good as those dudes, but it wasn't a, you ain't got no business being here sort of situation. So that's the big win. But now if I think about if there's anything that I would have done differently, I do think at some points, I think A, I maybe could have been more assertive at certain points about certain things, but the truth is I just didn't know enough about the world that I was in to feel confident standing on the table behind certain things.

You know, like I had to trust the people around me who knew more things than me, but I probably at some other points could have more trust in the fact that generally speaking, I knew some more things. Structurally, though, this is probably the biggest thing that I would have changed is I did not, I did not make enough of a requirement for writing on the show, like being a sports nerd. We were really trying to get people as broad as we possibly could, and we didn't have enough sports nerditry on the staff. The writers we had were very good, right?

Like, it's not like, this is not to say that the writers we had had shortcomings. But when I was thinking about the different things that we needed in a staff and what all the writers could provide, I did not think of just straight ahead sports nerdity enough. That's really the only thing that I would look back on and be like, I don't know. But I was like, I really look at that total experience. It's just when, top to bottom, win. You know, I can't, like I say, I did not do that show to make David's ass lot happy, no matter what happiness for him was going to be.

I had my own reasons for doing it. And for the reasons that I had to do it, I think I accomplished all of them. It was when we had you on last time, I asked the question of where we are in late night television, as a whole, right? Because we go from, the 60s and then you go to Johnny Carson and then you go to even to Leno and Letterman. There is a fixed

format, right? And I think we're still trying to figure out what that is in the modern age. What was the biggest thing you learned about what late night is at this point in time? Because it seems like, I don't know, it feels like after this this, whatever this train is or whatever

this lineup is, what Kimmel and all these things. I don't know what's next. What do you, what kind of insight do you think can you provide on where we are as a late night culture right now? Is it going to be somebody on a desk? Is it going to, what is it going to be in, say, 10 years, you think? I think it might be a rap to be honest. I think it might just legitimately be over. Like, if you, there's a value to the big three networks in having those late night shows because it allows them to advertise their other shows, right? It's like I'm not the value of the Olympics for NBC. So there's something to that part, but I don't, when our show was coming back, we were looking around and seeing similar shows get pushed out,

like full front of San B, for example, was a show that was getting pushed out. Comedy Central still makes a boatload of cash off the daily show there, so they're going to try to find a way to get that going. But no, I don't, I think it is possible that the paradigm, just because American life has changed so much, and there's so many. the available options. I'm just not sure that what we think of as a late night show is ever going to be back. It's like, but what does it get replaced by, right?

Or is it just die because we're not as a society? Like, I don't know. We got a glutty, man. We've got a glutt of shit, man. Like, I don't feel like nothing got to get replaced by nothing in particular. It's going to find something else, right?

And just jump on the internet and find out there's somebody telling jokes about shit everywhere, right? There's somebody helping catch you up with what happened yesterday everywhere. Like, I think the worst thing that, ever happened to us as an industry, societies, whatever, is when we started calling all this stuff content. And I've been thinking about this a lot, right? Like when I, when I first got into gang trying to look for TV stuff, which is like 2010, 2011, and a lot of these companies, like the regional sports networks, for example, or like Tom Warner gets the contract for the

Lakers. And they signed this 20-year deal to show Lakers games. So they got to put it up a channel to show Lakers games. But they also have the other hours of the days that they have to figure out and how to fill up, right? And so I just remember that was the first time I really started hearing people call all the stuff content, right? They just need content to fill out this space. Like there's a lot of instances that exist because they have a big thing, but then they need content just to fill out the rest of the stuff.

And so what we have is a bunch. And they don't want to put infomercials on. They don't want to do that. Correct. So what we just have is a bunch of stuff, right? Just a bunch of content and people cobbled together from the stuff that's out there. and they figure out how to make like this composite Frankenstein of all the stuff that they actually want. And so I don't know if you will need to have something very specific to replace late night in the ecosystem as much as I think the way that people consume things digitally kind of fills the space itself.

Well, it's interesting because we're in a where there's two sides that is coin, right? There's the linear side where that we're used to when we were growing up where there's a number of channels on on a Comcast or a spectrum or things like that. And then you have the other side of that, which is YouTube, where it's just, it's, it's an a la carte of whatever you want, right? And that's including some of the linear stuff. I just, I think, and I'm just speaking out loud here, I just don't know how that comes together. And I'm curious to see that part of it to see what that means in terms of channels, in terms of things like, how do these two worlds come together is what I'm looking for? Generally speaking, and this is where the internet, when people talk about the idea of the internet democratizing things, there is something. to that in large part. So the big companies in television were the big companies in radio, for example, right? Like they came over. They still got it done. The big companies, they were a little late to get to the streaming, though. So like CBSNBC are not the dominant streaming players, for example. You know, they're not, they're not the ones. They're not the

ones that do that. I don't know who, but we do feel like we still have dominant players in space, right? Amazon, Apple, you know, you go up and down the line, the ones they have the money, they're still like an oligarchy sort of feel, even though everybody has a chance and an opportunity to put stuff out. I don't know where it goes, though, in terms of who's in charge or what it is that people are going to watch, except I think it just is going to be decentralized. And I think this level of decentralization is a net negative for the viewer, actually. I think the viewer is going to find we were much better off when we had trust. trustworthy people to engage in a measure of curation of the content and a limiting of how much

stuff is out there so that we can actually have some commonality to talk about these things. Instead, you get like, I watch this, I watch this, I watch that, I watch this, da-da-da. And we ain't got nothing to talk about. Like, we're just so individually siloed. Like, I don't, there's something nifty about having access to all this content. Has it actually made our lives better? Like, if you really stop and think about it. am I happier in my life because there are millions of things that I could potentially watch?

And the answer is probably not. I can't think of how it's made my life one single bit better. Is that why you think now because sports is, is that why sports now is so important? And sports rights are so important because it's one of the last things that brings all of us together. I think I was less in one of the deal books. And I think Bob Iger said to that thing, right? Where this is one of the last unifying things.

that's why there's such an arms rights for sports arms race for sports rights right yeah it's things we have in common and the fact that people watch it live like that becomes another big part of it but see what the sports people need to watch out for is the fact that we are a society of decaying belief and sports is fueled by belief like people watch sports because they believe in larger ideas like even if it's just believing in a team it's because they believe in larger things and the newer generations aren't into sports like the older generations are. And everybody keeps trying to figure this out and the arguments have been made is because they have access to all of these other things.

And I don't think that's what the issue is. I think the issue is people don't believe in stuff like that anymore. And if you don't come in playing the game with a certain measure of belief, sports isn't really going to work for you. You know, like a lot of that corny stuff that people have been saying, that stuff matters. And it really is the reasons by and large why people are there. and that's where I look at it with sports. Like what the future is is whether the values of society are going to continue to be in line with sports.

The values of capitalism will be. But if the values of society or not, hmm, let's see how it goes. It's funny because we talk about just the new age of where we are with the media. I was an interview with a Charlotte made the guy recently. I don't know if it was rap radar. I forgot. But one of the, I think it was rap radar where he talked about radio versus people. podcasts and that radio fumbled the ball because they didn't embrace podcasting early enough.

And podcasting kind of cannibalized it in a way because it just replaced it. There's so many more podcasts and radio is taking a back seat to that. He did say radio still has a place in this, but I do want to get your take as someone that was, you're a radio guy. You started off there in Raleigh Durham. That's, you did, you had a ESPN radio show. Where is radio now in this ecosystem? So it's funny because in 08 and 09, when I'm working in radio, I'm trying to get them into the podcast space also.

And the issue, which I think it's easy to look at these people as dinosaurs, but I also think their point was perfectly reasonable, which is we make money off of these ratings. We don't want to dissuade people from turning on their radios because when they turn on their radios, this is where we make the money. It's the same thing with ESPN and people being like, well, core cutting is coming. And they're like, yeah, but we make money off of this right now. Right? Like, like, you want to walk away from money we make it right now because of the future? What do you talk? That logic, by the way, is how we got the morass that streaming is in, right?

Everybody trying to jump ahead to the future instead of the stuff that was already making money. So with radio, it was slow to get them there. But what I would try to get my radio people to understand was I, I at that time was looking at the digital stuff, whether it be their online stream or chopping up sound to make podcasts, as an alternative for people who are not able to listen to the radio. I saw it as a value ad for the people who work in offices that have a lot of metal and now they can't pick up this AM station while they are there, you know, have all these things they can't do. if when they get in their cars, they'll listen on the radio because that's the better product. But for now, I'm just trying to show them that I got this show here in ways like you're asking me to ask people to stumble upon me on the AM dial and I'm trying to figure out a way to bring this to where they at. Right.

I'm putting this on my Facebook wall and then they can go get it. But again, their thing was, well, we don't really make money like that. And I get, but it wasn't ridiculous of them. It made sense, but I don't think it was going to cannibalize things in the ways that they thought it was going to cannibalize things. What I don't think the radio industry was ready for was for the technology in cars to change to make it so easy to consume your digital stuff. Once that happened, all bets were off, right? Because what happens, I don't know, like, this happened to me, is that you, like, I knew the radio stations. When I lived in California, I lived in Atlanta, I knew the radio stations there.

I lived in Houston, I knew the radio stations there. When I lived in California, I knew the radio stations there. When I lived in Durham, I knew the radio stations there. When I lived in Miami, I knew the radio stations there. I got a car that had series in it and could run my stuff off my phone, and I never knew the radio stations again. The ox cord era. Yes, people fall off the radio wagon when a change like that happens. And then you just, it becomes harder to listen to the radio.

And so then they don't do it. but if they had not put in stuff in your dashboard to let you just plug your stuff in and pull it up on the screen on your car, radio would have been just fine. But once I could do that, what I need you for? It's funny because I would ask if it does have a place that I do still think it does specifically in sports, right? Because I think radio has finally come around to finally having it on the podcast, right? And you just wait for it.

Even if you're out of market, it actually helps when you're out of market. I listen to, you know, ESPN LA right now just to get what their point of view is. And there's an energy to be in all live. Like, there's an, when people know that this is happening right now, they like it more. Well, I think the next step is what I see now is what you're doing. I also see what, like, Stephen A is doing now. He's kind of making, kind of make, how important is it? Because this is what I see with Stephen A, right?

And you know him whether than I do. I know him a little bit. But it's where you see him now. just using old school values in a new school way, right? With his every, he has a studio set up. I don't know how the fuck he'd be working so hard and doing all these things in this way. It's amazing.

And just everywhere at once. But he does have this, this setup. Is that the future right now where we, we're going to start seeing like just shows now as it looks like quite, what quite frankly used to be, but it's just in a new age? Or is that going to be the thing where we're in this personality driven thing?

and that's what's going to be the mode of, oh, I'm just going to go to Stephen A's YouTube to see what he is saying because he has a built-in reputation. Is that the future? Is that what it kind of, because that's what it seems like in the present right now? I feel like that's the future for what will soon be the past.

And I'm not saying this specifically about Stephen A, like I would qualify in this case as being part of the past and the example that I'm making. It is the future for what someone who has already established himself or herself can do. Right? Right. So like Stephen A or Steve, somebody like me or somebody like Stephen A who built a platform off of, you know, the linear juggernauts of the past, we can go set up a digital outpost and then be like, okay, cool, come check us out. Well, my question is, I don't know how is anybody going to cut through? You know what I mean? Like, like, how, I don't know what it's going to take for somebody's content to be so good that you stand out as like that guy or like, who's the next Stephen A. Smith? can anybody get as big as Stephen A. Smith is in the way the ecosystem works currently.

I don't know who's big right now, right? Like, I know people have big subscriber numbers now, but I don't like, I forgot who I was talking to. But like, when people say things go viral, I don't even know what that means anymore. I don't even know where that goes right now. I don't know what hits the zeitgeist anymore. I can't even tell you. Well, let's also think about it this way is also the question of why it is that you are big. So I work at a company now where the other podcast, like the big ones that they're doing now, are Robert Griffin's podcast, the new one that's getting cracking with Merro and Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, and the Kelsey Brothers, right?

Like, these are the podcasts that the people that I work for do. There's a big difference between my podcast and those people's obviously. Like, part of it is them being athletes. But you come to my podcast because you want to know what I'm. I think about something. Yeah. Right. Like specifically, like, yo, this thing has happened.

I want to know what Beaumani thinks about this. And so people will come to me. How many people younger than, I'm going to throw a Nick right out there. Nick is four years younger than me. Okay. How many people younger than Nick are viewed in that way or even approaching this in such a way where you get to where people like, yo, I got to find out what he thinks. Like, I'm 43.

I'm relatively young. but people have been checking out how I felt about stuff for 20 years in various formats. Like, I've been doing this for a long time. So you can be young and still get that response from people. Who young is cutting through to where people want to know what they think about something, not just hear them talk about something, but what they think about. Because these athlete podcasts are great. But like, take Jeff Teague, for example, this podcast is excellent, but I don't think

that people are going because they want to know what Jeff Teet thinks. I do think people go to hear what Gilbert thinks, for example. But Gilbert is somebody, like, we didn't even know that Jeff T. talked for 15 years, right? And then we're like, correct. He's hell of funny. Okay. He's hilarious.

He tells great stories. But Gilbert, whereas Gilbert is like a guy that, oh, he's been telling stories this whole time. Like, even since he played, he was just an interesting, interesting person. But he has opinions. He has clear straight ahead opinions about the things that he talks about. right like he is very he's classically good as being a host when you go look at like what it is that makes that show work is that you know exactly what you over thinks about something no matter what

that's the most important thing that you have and those dudes that he has on there kenyon martin's the same way right yeah know exactly how they feel about stuff but i don't know how many people are trying to get it done on the basis of people want to know what they think which is wild because it's not like the only people listening to Stephen A are old people. Like young people are listening to Stephen A things too. Yeah. Yeah. Like youngsters love getting gang.

For sure. What do you think about the athlete podcast point of view on this? I obviously do a podcast with an athlete. It's something that like that is in my world. At first it seemed like something, you know, where it's basically an athlete getting off his thoughts and then somebody's like, yeah, man, what do you think about this? Yeah. What do you think?

I think it's evolved into more than that. We used to look at athletes as just on a television show. I mean, you have the micro straight hands. You have the outliers. But it was more of like very clearly, I'm the host. I guess inside the NBA is a great example of this, right? Ernie Johnson is the host. These are a whole bunch of athletes.

This is how we're going to go about it. Now it's just, if you're not an athlete, we're not really like rocking with you on this in this linear stage. what does that do for us? I'm honestly asking. It's bad news. It's bad news. That's what I'm trying to figure out. Like, at least in the linear space is going to be real tough.

But the fact that the digital space has adopted many of the same values is incredibly problematic. Like, everybody talks all that shit about the gatekeepers. Then they start acting just like them. Right? But no, you, that there is a very interesting question. That's why I asked younger than me, how do you cut through? And I don't have the answer.

just why I don't be going to these conventions no more. Just a bunch of kids asking me for advice that I ain't got. I don't know what to tell you, little hobby. You got to sound cool. Like, yeah, man, it say nothing. It actually say nothing to them. And I'll be like this. Like, hey, so you're still at school.

I'm just curious, if you're taking any business classes, you know? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you ever, you take accounting? You might want to, people are always going to need accountants. Just so you know, they'll always, maybe you can cover accounting. I don't know. But, you know, but no, that's the game. How do you cut through the noise? Because it's so much noise.

and we have tolerated so much mediocre stuff for so long and not demanded people actually be good. Well, I think the biggest thing, especially with the athlete pods, and I'm curious to see what you think about this part. But I do think who I think there's going to come a point where it is going to be a very biased athlete opinion. And I think that what is needed in it,

and I'm biased on this, but I think what's going to be needed is at least a co-host that is not afraid to call them out for, you know, athlete and being just saying stuff that is just way left just to settle the score. We've seen that time and time again because the consumer sees through that, right? I think that that's kind of the next step and where we can kind of get our niche into it, where it's like, yo, man, it's a conversation between these two entities.

I don't know if we're going to get there, but maybe that's wishful thinking. No, I think you're correct. I think the dilemma in what you describe, though, is it puts the quote unquote journalists in a hierarchical place that feels terribly uncomfortable to discuss, right? Like, I'm just here to be a set up man for the people ostensibly I should be covering. Yikes. Yikes. Yikes.

But, I mean, it's just we got to figure out how to make money off of this, man. There's a demand for content. The issue is not the demand for content. It's like, how do the best people at it make money off of it? Before we get you out of here, I want to ask. these things you, what about are almost a year removed from leaving ESPN? What do you, where do you, where do you see that? Now you're, you were there for so long. Where do you see it now, right? You're kind of an outsider. You're looking, you're looking at on TV like the rest of us now.

Where do you see that place and how do you, what are, how do you just feel just with all the experiences being away from it for so many months? I'm still kind of like reconciling what the feeling is like I don't take anything personal about my departure or anything else from there. Like I really, really don't. Like, it's the game. It happens. I got to work there for a very long time. I made a lot of money working there.

I made myself very, very famous. No, not very famous, but famous enough that I could live off of what I did there for a very long time. I can get in rooms off of what I did there. I met my heroes in many places based on what I did there. You know, so I don't work there anymore, but I really haven't, like after high noon got canceled. I really kind of stopped working there. Like, I would pop in and do some stuff here and there. But, you know, we said a transactional relationship. I do a little, I give me a little content.

They give me a little bit of money, you know? So I got no beef with them, but it's not, they broke my heart in 2007 when they didn't renew my contract. Like, that was really hard and really traumatic when I was dealing with all that stuff and writing for them and all of that. Like, that was tough. It could never be like that again with them. Like, maybe it could have been like that with some other people after that point, but it can never be like that again with them. I understood what the deal was. And I was fine with it. Like, they've been good to be raised. How old were you when that happened after the first year? Okay. That's tough, right? To just like the idealized version of this place that I loved for so long, it's kind of gone, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I thought I made it. It was, you know, it was a lot that came from that. And, you know, things I learned about myself, things I learned about the business. And it can never be like that again. But I look at it now as, I mean, it's a company that. broadcast games. And I do think that there's an ambition to the content that existed 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. That is not the priority of the current regime, right? The current regime needed to clean up that balance sheet and get themselves ready for whatever their financial future is going to be. And they are showing games and they are hoping that you'll come and place bets on the app for their sports book. And they are.

I don't want to say nobody cares about the quality of the programming because that's not true. People do care about the quality of it. But it's not going to be a place that tries new stuff. And 10 years ago, they were a place that tries new stuff. That was their whole shtick back then, right? It was we are the young, trying new things. People, right? Like, we're going to put a black man like Stuart Scott on here.

And he is going to speak about how in the way of a man. Now, I know he got pushed back on that. I'm not going to be naive to say that. But they were the people that were trying to think. They were the new young kids on the block. And it doesn't seem like that anymore. It seems like they're doubling down more on the older regime now. Well, I mean, well, they're the incumbent.

And whenever you are the incumbent, the people below you, you can always get out here. Like, we're going to shake some stuff up because you try to make a splash and move up. When you're on top, you try to stay on top. Right. You know, and so all the decisions that they make are going to be about staying on top. And the stakes are high. there's not a lot of room for taking risks at this point from where they are, you know, at least, you know, from what the general understanding of their financial situation is.

It's not that. So they are showing these games and they are encouraging people to bet. And I mean, that's what the company is right now. Like when they did not renew my contract, I didn't find it to be unreasonable at all because if you look at the content that they put out, look at the shows that they do, why would you renew my contract at the prices that I was getting paid or anything close that. Like, if I wanted to just come in and do around the horn a couple days a week, I'm sure we could have come to an agreement, but I don't want to do that anymore. You know, like, we don't have anything left that I want to do and that they want somebody to do.

What does that mean for the rest of the industry? I think the biggest thing that's happened with them as it relates to the industry is that ESPN, 15, 20 years ago, basically set about, set itself out to put your local newspaper out of business. Right? Like, the company had a beat writer for just about. every team. Like, they took the fight to the ground in that way. Not strictly because of ESPN, but since then, the local news industry has been decimated. Also, ESPN is not hiring as many people to do that stuff as they used to. Like, this is a huge company that had, regardless of what anybody thought about some of the ethics of some things, it was a big company that had a real

dedication to journalism. And it is not as dedicated to journalism as it used to be. And I think that's the biggest hit for the industry is just like, well, what a big, when, when the plant in town isn't hiring people to work on the line, what do the people with calloused hands do for money? That's the story of America, Beaumani. What? Before I get you out of here, there was one story that I heard, and I think we should end on this. I heard it's Magic Johnson told you your whole resume during one time, and that's when you knew you were famous. Can you tell that story and kind of expound on that story, place. Yeah, this was so funny. So at the seaport in New York is when I was doing high noon.

And do the seaport was a wild place to work because there's just no telling who might show up at the office on any given day. Because if somebody was going to be on ESPN, need to do something big. And in New York, they were coming to the seaport to do get up, to do first take, whatever it is. So, you know, you come in, Fadjo just sitting at the table. You come in. Charles Oakley's trying to get in because he's showing up unannounced because he's mad at something that Dolan's and he's got a hard drive in his hand and he wants to show people the video of him getting accosted at Madison Square Garden by Dolan's people, right? Like, you get there and Chad with Bowman's just posted up in the lobby and they, it says

what's up to you when you walk in? Because all these dudes watch ESPN, right? Yeah. So I'm there at up with Pablo. And something that had become very, very clear to me about Pablo was Pablo didn't understand the magnitude of Magic Johnson. Like, whatever it was, if it's age difference, it's up. bringing whatever, right? Because Pablo was only

six years old when Magic retired, right? He didn't get what a big deal this Magic Johnson thing was, because we'd be talking about him, this is what Magic was the GM. And we'd be talking about Magic, and I'm going to be talking about him in ways that I found to be almost borderline disrespectful. Right? I'm like, yo, this is magic.

Right? You're talking about, right? But it didn't land with him in that way. So Magic showing up at the office one day, and I'm like, I'm going to be here when Magic gets there, right? Of course. Magic gets there. and I see Magic and I dab him up. And, I mean, let's be clear.

Magic is just this guy, right? Like, he just knows, he's just charming. He's that dude. And he was like, all right, now, now you came up here from Miami, right? Yeah, he was like, and you was in North Carolina before that? I'm like, how in the world is Magic Johnson? No, I don't know if somebody gave him a primer on the way there. Like, he looked at Pablo and was like Harvard, right?

You went to Harvard, right? Like, now, great, he didn't have all the other stuff to say, yes, I am flexing. But still, he just like, Magic did that. I was just like, yo, Magic Johnson knows details about who I am. Now, I brought the Pablo part up, by the way, because what's in the magnitude of magic, Pablo jumped on the couch to come shake Magic Johnson's head. He could not wait. Like, all of a sudden, he understood the Magic Johnson thing once he got into the room with him.

Yo, I don't, I'd never seen Magic play. I've obviously been a child, but I knew, I know magic. Magic is, and also, there's another thing, Magic is such a great politician, man. Magic, magic, he walks in a room, he elevates the room, you know magic is there. Think about this. We call him magic like it's his name,

and he didn't ask us to do it. No. Like, do you realize how cold you have to be for people to just decide to start calling you magic like it's your name? Magic! And you're a black man from East Lansing, Michigan. It's amazing.

Magic. And we're just, like, everybody in your regular life calls you Irvin, right? So clearly you are not demanding to be called magic. But we do it. And we're not even like, yo, I ain't calling no man. I ain't calling that man. Magic. Yes, I am.

He's Magic Johnson. He is just, they made one of those. One of those. Bomani Jones, ladies and gentlemen, you can catch the right time. Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. Yo, man, appreciate you coming on. bro. We'll see you soon. No problem, man. I appreciate you.

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