The Ringer NBA Show - What Have We Learned From the First Half of the NBA Season? | The Answer

Episode Date: March 5, 2021

Chris is joined by The Athletic’s Wosny Lambre to discuss what lessons they’ve learned from the NBA season thus far (02:30). Some topics include Joel Embiid’s dominance (19:00), Zion Williamson���s rise into superstardom (23:00), and the art of tanking (28:00). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Wosny Lambre Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

They don't have guests. They have contestants. Ten Questions with Kyle Brandt is the perfect game show and talk show hybrid that you need. Check out 10 questions exclusively on Spotify. Hello, and welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It is The Answer. I'm your host, Chris Ryan, and this week we're talking about what we have learned. NBA season is at its official halfway point as we're heading into the All-Star break.

There's a couple of news things that we should probably mention. the All-Star game, the All-Star team selections were, like, deeply, deeply amusing. And the Utah Jazz getting picked, the last two picks was just, like, pure comedy. So I'd like to thank LeBron James for commentating on that and resurrecting the Stockton Malone NBA jam duo as Mitchell and Gobert. That was really funny. And as we're going to record right now, the Pistons and Blake Griffin have agreed to a buyout. and it's already rumored that Blake Griffin may wind up on the nets,

which as a fan of another Eastern Conference team is somewhat terrifying. But I'm sure we'll get more into that. As that story clarifies over the weekend, I would imagine, Golden State and Miami are also apparently in running to sign Griffin as he leaves Detroit. But today's episode is about lessons we've learned from the first half of the season. So I wanted to have Wozni Lambrae from the Athletic on to talk a little bit about what we've learned from the season. It's been a weird one. You know, obviously the very short turnaround, an abbreviated season, COVID restrictions in place.

So we're not having home fans in a lot of stadiums, although that's going to increasingly change over the next couple of weeks. And I think that everybody is kind of like, there's this little pregnant pause. I think we're trying to see what's real and what's not out there. There's a lot of really interesting teams. There's a lot of really good teams. There's a lot of teams that you could see being dominant in the regular season. But you're not sure how they're going to work out the playoffs. You're not going to sure how Brooklyn or Milwaukee or Phoenix or any of these teams are really going to translate once you get to the postseason and schemes get a little bit harder to break.

And teams have a little bit more tape and a little bit more time to prepare and a little bit more focus on their matchup. So I can't wait for the second half of this season. It's been a really entertaining one so far. I talked to Woz a little bit about what we've learned. We each had a couple of lessons. So let's get into my conversation with Wasney Lambert right now. All right, man. It's been a long time coming.

I can't believe I've never been done a pod with this man before, but I'm joined now by Waz, who's staff right over with The Athletic and maybe on more podcasts than I am. Primarily, groups adjacent with David Aldridge. But, Was, what's up, man? Thanks for doing the pod with me. I'm good, man.

Thank you for having me. It's been a long time coming. You know, Varyer had me on the Ringer NBA show a few months back because, you know, me and Varia go way back. And I was like, yeah, that's what's up. But, you know, I never, that's the only other time. I've been on the ringer, of course, I'm a fan of what you guys do. So I'm excited, man.

We're going to have a good time here. So we're going to go on like an emotional and intellectual journey, figure out what we've learned from this first half of the season, which is coming to a kind of a fizzle out with Paul George being out tonight. So this Clippers game probably isn't going to be that interesting. Is that tonight? Is that still happening, right? Yeah, I believe so.

As of this recording, it's still happening. Yeah. But we're talking about what we've learned over the first half of this season, some of the lessons we've learned. But before we get into that, I wanted to ask you, as somebody who essentially covers this stuff professionally, have you enjoyed this season?

Have you, it's been an entertaining season for you? I'm able to enjoy the NBA pretty much no matter what. Like, I'm probably the wrong person to ask, yes, I'm enjoying it, but I will say, I don't think the level of play this season

is at the level that it was when the bubble started. Right? I remember watching those first few games like, yo, these dudes are playing incredibly hard, are executing at an extremely high level. Like this is like the top level of basketball that could probably be achieved on planet Earth right now. But this season is a little bit different because, you know, and you can't blame the guys. It's a short turnaround. It's a 72 game season.

Like they're treating it like the marathon that it actually is, whereas the bubble was like those seating games, which was like eight, 10 games or whatever it was. And then boom, you're in the playoffs, which is all these guys care about anyway. Yeah, it was like weird cool way versus weird bad way. Like it was a cool weird in the bubble. And this seems like a little bit more like, man, I can tell Staples has no vibes. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's, it's just so much different. And again, like, I think guys are conscious of the fact that there's 72 games here, you know, and the lack of a turnaround. Um, and it's just, You know, they're playing that way.

I think most teams are, and you can see it from the records. Like, the way teams are so bunched up, like, I looked up in Milwaukee's like 21 and 14 or something. I'm like, man, like, you know, these are supposed to be some of the most highest quality of teams. I think in a regular, a normal NBA season, these records wouldn't look this way. Yeah, you're right. So why don't we get into these lessons? So you're the guest. So I want you to go first, but I'm sure we'll touch on a lot of the reasons why.

we feel like this has been an odd season in these lessons. But you go first. What's your first lesson you've learned this season? The Utah Jazz are neither the 2015 Hawks, nor are they the 2015 Golden State Warriors. And by that, I mean, they're not the cute, cuttly story that the Hawks were in 2015. If you remember, you know, we picked four Hawkses

and Eastern Conference Player of the Month. They got four All-Stars. you know, like everybody was excited about this egalitarian type of offense where everybody touches the ball and it's the beautiful game. And then they got trounced in the playoffs by LeBron. Yeah, you put them in the wood chipper. Pummeled in the playoffs by LeBron

and the Cavs, which, you know, that was a team that was LeBron's first year back in Cleveland. The regular season was uneven. Remember he took the two weeks off to go to Miami, the fit in, don't fit out thing. Like, nobody was impressed. by that Cleveland team at all, and they steamroll the Hawks, right? So I don't think they're quite the Hawks.

You know, I think they have the sort of individual firepower to not be compared to the Hawks. I don't think anybody in the Hawks was as physically as forceful and dominant as, say, a Donovan Mitchell, right? Like, there was nobody on that Hawks team who could do what Donovan Mitchell did in the first round of last year's playoffs, right? There was nobody as physically dominant on defense as a Rudy Gobert is, right? I just don't think the talent level is the same at all. Even if it is a cute, cuddly story from a market that's not supposed to ever do this type of stuff, I get it.

But, you know, this team is not a juggernaut either, right? Like, they're not redefining basketball in the way that that specific Warriors team did. They won 67 games eventually ended up. winning the championship. So that's one of my first observations is the jazz are good. I don't think the clippers of the Lakers are going to have an easy time with them in the playoffs. But I don't think this is the beginning of a would-be dynasty.

No. Did you see so like in this last week from the Sixers game where Mitchell gets tossed and then Gobert and Mitchell go off about the referees and how Utah is getting no respect and small market teams and everything? And then those guys getting picked last for the All-Star game, which was comedy. But it was also like, yeah, but LeBron being like an NBA jam, we didn't play with Stockton and Malone

so we don't play with Donovan and Rudy now. Do you think that they can actually flip that and get a little nobody believes in us going? That's 100% what's driving them this season. Like you can tell if they're doing that in the media talking about, oh, we're a small market team and nobody wants to give us. Like, I think that's exactly why KD and LeBron conspired

to pick them last. It's like, yo, don't do that. You know, don't say, you don't get a call because it's small market or it's this or like the idea that, you know, the Boston Celtics are going to get better calls than you because they're in Boston. Like that doesn't even make sense

or that Julius Randall is going to get more calls than Donovan Mitchell because he plays for the Knicks. Like, it doesn't make any sense. And I'm sorry, Rudy Gobert has had a history of complaining, bitching, and moaning. The man cried on camera because he didn't make an all-star team.

You know, could you imagine if like Kendrick Lamar did an interview with Elliot Wilson after McElmore took his Grammy and cried people would be like it doesn't even make any sense whatsoever then he blamed it on his mom

like they just have a history of being just a whiny bunch and I think people are tired of it I think that's what that all-star thing was there was this amazing moment during that Philly Utah game at the end when those guys started talking after the game where it was like they woke the dragon from the Hobbit up because like

I think Philly had forgotten about the Donovan Mitchell rookie shirt, like definition of rookie sweatshers. And then when that started popping off about it, when he started talking at the end of the game, I was just like, the Twitter became like irradiated. I was just like, I can't believe how angry

Philadelphians just got about the Utah Jazz all over again. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the second half of the season because I do think that there's going to be more and more scrutiny for all their losses. And there's probably going to be, all of their victories are going to be kind of like, well, that's what you're supposed to do. You want to be a dominant team. We're not going to give you guys

a victory lap and a long feature just because you won three games a row or ten games in a row. My first lesson, it's a little bit of an offbeat one, but I think I'm doomed to become my dad. That's the lesson I've learned in this first half. So this is,

I have this very clear memory of growing up and watching Eagles games with my dad on Sundays. And as I got older, as he got older, I found myself basically getting way more annoyed at my dad than I did enjoy football because my dad would spend the entire game complaining about commercials. Like, he just couldn't get his mind around the sheer volume of breaks that they were taking in the game to do ads.

And it wouldn't even matter what they were selling. He was just getting increasingly pissed off about the realities of modern sports on television and the amount of ads. And I was just like, shut up. Let's just watch the game. Like, it is what it is. But now I find myself turning into him, specifically as it relates to the instant replay reviews down the stretch of games. And I can't tell maybe somebody who's much younger than me is

just like, that's just how a basketball works now, or we have instant replay, and that's just you want to get the call right, and I don't really care. But it's getting into my head to the point where I was watching, I think it was a Celtics game the other night, and I realized that I missed the actual action of the game because I was too busy texting about how angry I was about all the instant replays. And I do wonder, though, whether it's just me. Like, are you finding that the end of games have become choppier and more stultifying? Yeah, I mean, but I'm against, I'm kind of against instant replay on all forms of sports.

Like, this idea that we have to, we have to get it right as if this is like, you know, social security policy. You know what I'm saying? Like, dude, this is freaking NBA basketball. Part of why we like it is the drama, is the human element, is the, you know, the interpersonal play. Like sometimes calls are going to go against you and we're going to have a great time debating what would have been if the call wasn't right.

Oh, we got robbed. Oh, no, you didn't. You could have did this. Like that's part of the fun of watching sports. I'm sure you saw online last week. I think it was, you know, the people rose up against my man Nate Duncan and basically blamed him for the stats revolution in basketball and stat geeks don't like hoop and all of that. And by the way, I know Nate Duncan personally and I found it funny because there is nobody who

loves this sort of like visceral like aesthetic basketball stuff more than Nate, which is the most ironic thing about this. But where the stat geeks have their sort of thinking has creeped into the NBA is this idea that we have to quote unquote be right. And it's just, it's, it's just a horrible viewing experience. And I can, and being in the arena, it stinks too, where everybody's just sitting around and it sucks the juice out of every single moment. It's horrible.

I'm against his to replaying baseball. Don't give me that automatic strike zone. I don't want it. And take it out of football. I don't need it. And I definitely, definitely, definitely don't need it in basketball. Outside of basically a guy stepping on a line. If he stepped on the line, we can look at it for two seconds.

All right. Other than that, get it out of my game, Chris. There's too many things, too, that are just like, it's actually both. Like, it can be a charge in a block at the same time. Like, you can, when Lillard slid underneath Draymond the other night in the Blazers Warriors game, and we were sitting there, at first it was like, that is a block. That is a block. Like, his feet were still moving.

And then it was like, well, Zags Arba had some explanation for it. I was like, this is a close game between the Warriors and the Blazers, two of the most, like, electric teams to watch. It's late at night on the West Coast. People are loving life. Like, Damian Lillard is going up against Steph Curry and the end of a game. And we are watching Zach Zarba watch an instant replay for like four minutes. Like, that's criminal. And Chris, nobody loves Zach Zabba more to me.

Brooklyn's own, Midwood High School. We love Zach Zarb for rep in the city. But, like, it's, and you know what the thing about that, too, that people don't realize. realize, and yes, I'm an evangelist for banned a block charge. We compound bad rule with another bad policy slash room. So, like, the reason why the block charge sucks is because it's impossible to freaking judge in real time, with how athletically gifted these guys are. And then we compound that by asking the reps to dissect it frame by frame.

It's an impossible thing to judge. Then it's like, no, here's more time to impossibly judge it. Let them get it right or wrong in the moment so we can all. move on with our lives. This isn't, like, it's impossible. No, and it's like, I think that they're almost, like, overrating, because, like, in the back of their minds, there's, like, a Sun series from 20 years ago that was, like,

misreft. And so they're like, well, we can't get it wrong. But it's, like, actually, 99% of fans get angry about it, and then they forget it. They forget the call. They'll forget the call in, like, a day. Nobody's going to be, like, I have to go start, like, a petition to get this guy banned from the NBA.

Like, people just, like, move on. if you let the game flow. And I don't understand, especially with the way the offenses work now. I'm like, these are beautiful, beautiful offenses to watch, like, play flow basketball. Why are we stopping them every eight seconds to be like, you knocked the ball off this guy's hand, or did it touch your fingertip at the very last second before it went out? And again, part of, I can't stress this enough. Part of what makes sports special different than a lot of other forms of entertainment

is that we're going to carry on the conversation into. the bar, not just the next day, the next month, the next year talking about, oh, such and such missed this, oh, that call was missed. Oh, that's part of the drama. It's part of the conversation. What could have been, should have been, would have been. So the idea that we will parse this in a freaking regular season game in March is, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And I don't think this is you and me being old. This is not you and me being old. We're not trying to be like it was better when we were kids. Oh, it's just a bad product.

I don't think a 17 year old who's watching the NBA is like, no, this is great. We should be getting this completely right every single time. No, nobody's saying that. What's your second lesson? My second lesson is related to something we talked about at the top of the show, Chris,

and it's that the Los Angeles Lakers are not going to try this season. They're not going to try. They have proven this. I think the AD thing sitting out is very precautionary. Even while he was playing, if you've been watching the Lakers at all, they have been running this game. And they've been, to me, one of the most exciting teams to watch.

Because no matter who they play, the outcome is going to be contested at the end. They have been trying to experiment to see how many NBA games they can win while expending the least amount of energy possible. They have been doing this all year. long. And then AD went down and Schroeder went down because of protocol. And, you know, so they lost four games in a row because those two guys are really important integral to what they do. So they lost and because they haven't been the habit of playing pedal to the metal balls to the wall type of basketball. But the Lakers are not going to try. Remember, I just want everybody to remember this. After they

clinched home court in the bubble, the Lakers completely stunk up the joint. And everybody was like, What's wrong with the Lakers? The offense isn't good. The blah, blah, blah, blah. What's going on with them? The defense doesn't even look and lead again. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the playoffs came.

And then, again, I want to remind everybody of game six against Miami. As soon as you start doubting what the Lakers are doing this year, they got to a level of defense that is just obscene. Anthony Davis was just, he was swallowing people whole. And then I'm watching this season. I'm like, bro, Gate, like, I get. Like, I get why you're doing it because the short around is so short, but like, I remember what happened in the finals, bro.

You're not playing that hard right now. Like, it's not hard for me to recall the memory of you completely destroying Jimmy Butler and Bam out of bio by yourself on the defense event. So just keep that in mind, like just watching the Lakers, they're not going to try this season. I agree with you. Do you think that LeBron agrees with you? You know, I have so many, I have so many, like, conspiracy theories about LeBron.

Safe space, go for it. Because this is the ring and I know that I can do that. And I trotted this out on the athletic NBA show. I think the reason why no Laker has tested positive is because LeBron came to them before the season. I said, look, I have a vaccination guy. We're all getting vaccinated. We're not going to miss games. We can all go out and do whatever the hell we want.

We're going to be fine. All of this protocol stuff has been for, oh, you was, it was contact tracing. Not one positive test. The whole year. And these fools live in, live in L.A.? Right. Okay. Right.

Okay. So I think LeBron told him, look, this is how we're going to handle the season. We're going to ease our way in. I remember, and it was like when the season first started, they said, yo, just don't judge us until March. which was their way of saying, look, guys, we're not coming out here and killing ourselves on behalf of the NBA's regular season product. It's not going to happen.

And so that's what I think LeBron told him, yo, this is what we're going to do. We're going to ramp up towards the playoffs so that we can be ready for the clippers, ready for the jazz, ready for Denver, etc., etc. My second lesson is it's in Bede. That's pretty much the lesson. Like, going into this season,

I'm a really, really big Ben Simmons. guy. And I think somewhat to keep it provocative, but also because, like, it's just a style of play that I really like, I think that I would make the argument that while M.B was clearly, like, a more valuable and better player that Ben Simmons presented a more, like, exciting to me version of basketball, like, Ben Simmons running the break with shooters around him. Not that I wanted him be traded by any means, but I thought you could make the argument that they could be, like, co-leaders of that team, co-alphus, that you could have, like, a big team. two there. And then as Doc has kind of rolled this team out this season and as Embedde has had

the season that he's had, which is I think arguably now he's in pole position for MVP, it's just abundantly clear that like he has found the balance and that it is M.B.'s team, that it is like running everything through him, allowing him to pass out of doubles, allowing him to take three-pointers if he wants to, allowing him to kind of just operate the way he wants to operate and watching Simmons just be like, I'm going to play defense on whoever the other team's best perimeter player is, and then I'm going to run the break, and then in the half court,

I'm trying not to fuck up. That's what his job is, and it seems like it's really working. So I apologize for any moments that I spent participating in the Embeder Simmons debate, the debate is over. You know, I've been somewhat of an opposite guy. I've been off of Simmons,

basically since year two, when it was abundantly clear, like he is who he's, going to be, right? And that is a guy who's never going to be a one-on-one force in postseason basketball. He's never going to be the guy who you get the ball to and say, beat the guy in front of you. And playoff after playoff. We watched the regular season where beautiful game, blah, blah, blah, you know, passing the ball around ball movement yada, yada, yada, yada. Playoff after playoff, we watch the game devolve into, can you beat the guy in front of you? Can you force the other team

the draw two. Can you puncture the defense? Can you do these things that win games in the playoffs? Since Simmons has just demonstrated, he's never going to be that guy. That being said, I don't think the Sixers ever sort of optimized his skills in the sense that surrounded him and Embed with shooters and just see what will happen until this year. Mori gets in there. He's like, you know what we're going to do? Get guys that can shoot to play next to these dudes. Like, no-brainer. You know, I think, yes, no, he's never going to be that number one guy. I think the best version of him is a sort of semi-supped-up version of Draymond Green, which, as we've seen in the playoffs, is a very valuable player, right?

A very, you know, important player, of winning player, you know, if he becomes a guy who understands like, I'm a dirty work guy, I'm a lunch pail guy, yes, I get out in the break and I run, but what I do is these little things, and I do them to the, to the umpteenth power because I'm so physically gifted. He becomes a really, really interesting player. I think he was miscast as this sort of next LeBron. Yeah, next magic. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Or magic. He's miscast as this, you know, insane perimeter threat. But I think, you know, like you said, the beckin order is clear because Joelle Embed cannot be stopped by one man. Right. And that's who's always going to be the most important person on the team.

What's your next lesson? All right. My next lesson, and a lot of people are not going to want to hear this, man, but this is just how I feel. Zion Williamson has demonstrated that he's a lot closer to Luca than he is the rest of the young rising star up-and-coming guys. Meaning he is going to be an MVP, shoulder the burden type of player.

You just put me on the course. court, our offense is going to generate quality looks no matter what type of player. And physically, I think he's going to, right now, obviously, he's nobody's Bill Russell. We can admit that. Sure. But I think physically, once he gets his wind, he's going to become more than capable as a defender. And again, I'm talking about guys like Tray Tiel, John Morant, Jason Tatum. I'm talking about all-stars, right?

Like, these guys are great NBA players, but I think Zion has showed you, especially in the past few weeks, where Stan has just been like, why am I trying to make this guy center when he's just shack on the perimeter? Right? Like, why don't I just put the ball in this man's hand and allow him to flash his actual playmaking ability, flash his decision-making skills, like, and still be physically just overpowering, right?

And I think Zion is a lot closer to the Luca level than he is the rest of the young guys, whether it be his own teammate, B.I. And like I said, Tatum, Trey, T.L. J. Marantz or any of those younger cats, Bam out of bio, these rising stars, Zion is just, he's in another class to me. It's good that you did this after the Sixers thing because I think there is a burgeoning B.I. Zion like discussion about whether those guys fit. But I think in much the same way, yeah, they fit. You just have to surround them with the right guys. Like, that was the

Sixers conversation. I think that there's some decent pieces around those dudes. Like, I've been really impressed with Lanzo this season. I'm curious what you think. think that the Pelicans need to start doing personnel-wise and whether it's something that's a like a change for right now or a change that's going to work maybe two seasons down the line. I mean, the obvious answer is spacing, is shooting. I don't, like, to me, I don't understand why you go out of your way to get Stephen Adams in there when people like Al Horford and Miles Turner were on the board too this summer. I just, I love Griff.

I would love to have a conversation with him and understand the thinking of putting this guy who only lives in the paint next to Zion Williamson where that's where he's optimally used is attacking that area of the court. I'll never understand that. I think they just got to put shooting around them.

I mean, is that just a culture? Is that like a locker room thing? Like you get Adams in and Adams is just like every night we go, we do battle and I'm going to show you how. Like, I mean, maybe that's, That's an easy read. I have no idea. It's like with JJ and Adams and those guys, I'm like, I'm not really sure what they're doing for you. I don't know. I struggled to understand the

moves myself. And, you know, the idea that you would play a front court of Adams, B.I. and Zion is just anathema to NBA basketball as it's played right now. You know, I don't know if they thought maybe, you know, we had the ghost of defense or I'm not sure what the thinking was. But I think that's a suboptimal usage of your resources when it comes to surrounding your two young guys who are supposed to be, you know, the most important people in the franchise, right? And maybe it's a short-term thing. Maybe it's just like, whatever, we're developing Zion in this certain type of way. And when Zion learns how to play in a constricted court, he's going to be unstoppable when he finally gets a more space court. Who knows?

But, yeah, I would like to see them optimize their lineups for Zion more because as you've seen, this guy. gets the ball going downhill, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm getting to my left hand every time, I'm, once I get my shoulder even half an inch past you, you're, you're, you're done, you can't do anything with me. And if you try to send too much help, I'm a more than willing passer. I, like, the guy is just remarkable for his young age and he didn't even have a rookie season, you know, he got hurt, then the season got killed. Then he had a minute's restriction. Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like, he didn't even have a rookie season.

have a rookie season and look what he's already doing. This guy's the sky's the limit for this kid. My next lesson is that it turns out tanking is an art. And I've been fascinated by some of the worst teams in the league this year. I think some of this is beyond anyone's control.

The way Minnesota has slid off a cliff is almost like an early cure song in like how depressing it is. But like I do remember when tanking obviously kind of got popularized with the Sixers, it was agonizing. I can't say that I watched a lot of those early bad 13, 15 win Sixers teams. But there was definitely a feeling like it may or may not work, but there is a plan.

You know, like there is a plan. And with the worst teams in the league this year, so whether it's a Minnesota or increasingly a Cleveland or even sadly a Sacramento who sort of have the roster that you tank for already and are in fact still bad. I just feel like there is a lack of long-term thinking, which is understandable. Like, job security is what it is in the NBA. And sometimes owners get a little bit impatient, like, as we're seeing within Atlanta, where they're obviously, they have playoff dreams with signing a bunch of veterans. And now they're going to have Nate McMill and try and coach this team into probably a playing game if he can. But I do think that we've

sort of seen how hard it is to actually pull off a tank. And in places like Cleveland, in places like Minnesota, in places like SAC and in places like Atlanta, like the mixed results can actually have like long-term detrimental effects if you don't pull it off right. If you don't lose with intent and then try to build the right way, if you kind of have these false starts, if you kind of have, you know, going all in for DeAngelo Russell, now being kind of like up against it and having a group of young players who are now on their second coach, but like second front office administration with an ownership that's uncertain in Minnesota. It's just a really interesting situation.

I wonder whether or not, I wonder whether we'll ever see a full-scale tear down like we did in Philly again, because I don't know if people have the stomach for it. Yeah, and I think the hardest part about the tank that, you know, the Hanky Files never want to acknowledge. And I think, you know, Philly got kind of lucky in that it was Joellen Bede, who's kind of like his makeup is a lot different than a lot of cats. And it wasn't Andrew Wiggins and Carl Anthony Towns in the sense that you're the person who we tanked for. So we're constantly patting you on your ass and telling you how great you are just because you said dad at one time.

Right. And the culture that that breeds, it's not conducive. to when you want to turn the corner, which is what we're seeing in Minnesota. And I'm glad you said the word, it's an art form. Because the team that you didn't mention that, that made me think of was Detroit.

Yeah. Like, they went out and they spent all this money on Jerry and Grant to allow him to be, you know, Kobe on their team. And they spent all this money on Plumlee. And all of us, you know, sort of pseudo-sharp NBA onlookers were like, what in the hell are the pistons doing?

And they were like, you know what? We are tanking. But we're bringing in quality players too. And, you know, Killian Hayes, he's not going to be our savior when he comes in from day one. There's going to be guys on the roster who are clearly and obviously better than him.

And we're still not going to win, but there's still going to be this sort of competitive idea to our makeup and our team. What we're doing here every day is not in service of losing. we're trying to win, but we're going to lose in the process, right? And so I think there is an art to how you sort of finesse and maneuver it. Like I think even in Memphis, who's like, they never tanked.

They might have had a season where they was like, all right, we're going to lose this year, but they were never a tanking organization. And you see how competitive those cats were without John Moran, without Jaron, without Jaron Jackson III. And it's like they're breeding a very hyper-competitive, culture out there. And they didn't spend five years saying the whole point of this operation is for ping pong balls and odds, right? I think people, to your point, I think teams are smarter about and I hate the culture word, but it does matter. Like when Jimmy Butler, Jimmy Butler was right,

by the way, about Minnesota. When he did all of that, when he staged the cool and did the, you know, the interview with Rachel Nichols at the same time and he did all, like he was right about those kids. He was right about Wiggins. He was right about towns. He beat the starters with the bench kids in the practice, in the scrimmage, yeah. To prove a point. Exactly. He was right about ownership and how they handled things.

He was right, you know. And I think that's about culture and the expectations that you set for your young guys. It's funny. We don't talk about it. I didn't mention Oklahoma because I have like the utmost confidence that Oklahoma knows what they're doing. Because Oklahoma has weathered more storms than most pro-examines. than most pro sports teams have in the last decade in terms of seeing turnover and their superstars

and they can be major players at the next two to three trade deadlines if they want to and also have all of this draft capital which could it pay off in a huge way if they get cade like it's nuts they're right back in it if they get a couple of things to break their way. What's your next lesson? My next lesson and my final lesson

and I would want anybody who's listening to this podcast to understand this when they are watching the NBA. And that's that the NBA is a capitalistic endeavor first and foremost. And I say that as a lesson learned, not just from the past season, but just from the past year. The whole operation in the bubble was to recoup money. The short turnaround this season is like, yo, you know what? We want to get our next season. This season is going to be the sacrificial lamb so that next season is back on our normal NBA schedule.

We know there's going to be bumps and bruises. We know the COVID thing isn't going to be perfect. But we got to get our financials in order. And sorry, Miami, sorry, L.A. Yes, you just played in October. We're coming back in December because we got to get this paper straight. The All-Star game in Atlanta this year. There's no other reason to play it.

but for the fact that the NBA has decided, along with their business partners in Turner, like, yo, this is one of our most lucrative weekends of the year. We budget around this damn weekend and how much money we make. We need these games. We need these events. We need this TV product. And so I just want everybody to understand that, like, the only reason that the NBA exists, meaning a partnership between the Players Association and the owners in the league office is because they make money together. That's not to say LeBron and KD wouldn't be somewhere hooping if the NBA didn't exist. But the reason this product exists as it does is to make money.

And that gets complicated with sports because it's not like buying a car, right, where we all understand that this is purely a transactional situation that's happening right now. The sports is selling you a little bit more than that. They're selling you nostalgia. They're selling you pride in your city, your town, you know, your connection with your dad or your mom or whoever. right? Like they're selling you all of this other sort of touchy-feely stuff

but please remember that this is business. Do you think that the NBA has had a little bit more for the fans of the league has had a little bit more of a rude awakening because there was or is this perception that it's the Progressive League, that it's the league that gets it, that it's the league that does things the right way?

It's funny when I hear those words, progressive and the NBA because I just explained to you that like this is a freaking business enterprise right like I'm old enough to remember when Jason Collins came out and it was a big

deal that players didn't treat them like he had cooties the most progressive league in the world we made it like it was a huge deal that they treated Jason Collins like a goddamn human being and so

I always think these conversations are overblown because a bunch of black dudes said that it's messed up when the police beat the heads in of black people for no reason. This makes them the most, you know, moralistic, altruistic business enterprise ever. It's nonsense. It's nonsense. I think people conveniently do that when they want to crush the league that they already want to crush for beings, you know, hypocritical. But it's funny. Like when I watch people crush the NBA for China, and I'm like,

American business has been doing business in China for 35 years now. Now the NBA does it and somehow it's messed up. Like, are people going to stop buying shit from Walmart because they make everything in China? Are people going to throw their iPhones in the China? What are we even talking about here? The NBA is the only business entity not allowed to do business in China? I think that this all started for me,

Because when we were growing up and it was stern, we were not under any like, this is the progressively allusions, you know what I mean? But when you had, I think it was silver and I think it was the Sterling situation,

which to your point, everybody knew who Donald Sterling was. This was just a tape that got leaked to TMZ. That's what happened. Also, that was a business decision. Yeah, of course it was. Yeah.

And it worked out quite well for the NBA with Steve Ballmer cutting that check. Exactly. And it worked out quite well for the other owners. Yeah. And the positive PR and all of that stuff. But like, if we really want to get busy,

we could talk about some of these other owners, man. Right. Like, I mean, come on. Just because it's not Goodell, who is like, I'm not even like acknowledging that COVID is real. You know, I mean, like, not that he didn't, but like they were just like, you're playing. How about that?

This is what we're doing. My last, my last lesson for this year is a little bit nebulous, but I wanted to see what you thought of this. And this is, the lesson is the bill comes due for everybody eventually. And I was thinking about this especially with Janus, who is having not quite statistically the same season that he had in his previous two MVP campaigns, but it certainly has not had like a huge falloff.

He's not like I had a precipitous fall off. The bucks, like we mentioned, are not like annihilating every team and winning by 25 and Janus is only playing like 31 minutes a game because they're already up in the fourth quarter. but they're playing well and they'll make the playoffs and they'll probably make some noise in the playoffs.

But I definitely get this sense from talking to people from reading stuff that the NBA populace is either 50% like this is what we expect from Janus and then there's another group that's like,

Janice needs to show me something else now. You know what I mean? And I completely get it. Like I mean, you know, those playoff exits are pretty disappointing and they're disappointing in a way that feel a little bit different. than in past times,

like you've seen stars have to go through some other team, through some sort of obstacle in the playoffs to really jump up to the next level. Like, there seems to be something about Milwaukee's style of play

that just breaks in the playoffs. And I think that they're efforting to change that and running a lot of stuff through Middleton and trying to mix it up a little bit. But I've been fascinated to see the honeymoon end

this abruptly for Janus after these two MVP seasons. And I think that you're seeing that a little bit with Luca in the beginning of the season. We even saw it a little bit with Steph, we're like, well, Steph can't carry a team. And I just think it's, maybe it's a product of all of us being on our phones for a year

in our apartments and not really, like, getting a lot of time outdoors. But it does seem like our attention span and our patience level with superstars is, like, dropped a little bit, and we're looking for a little bit of results from folks. But it's, it's the natural cycle of things, right? Like this is aside from Bird and Magic who basically won out the gate, right?

Like Magic literally won in his rookie season and won a freaking finals MVP. This has always been the cycle. You can say it with Jordan where he comes into league. He has sense to being clearly the best player. Then it's like he's too selfish to win. God doesn't pass enough. You can never win a championship with a guy who leaves the league in scoring. Yada, yada, yada, yada.

Then he proves himself. We saw it with LeBron. We saw it with Shaq. We always do this. We love it on the ascent. And then we get tired of it. Like, you're not so cute anymore. You know, you've kind of grown a beard and a mustache.

You go get a job now, right? And so that's what we do to superstars. That's what we do. We do it all the time. And Janus, I knew it was coming. Because I remember, remember Janice surprised us. He wasn't some top pick.

He's from a foreign country. He was this really skinny kid. And then all of a sudden he's becoming this freak of nature. And I remember when I, I used to tweet after every single 25 and 15 game, you know, in the second or third year, I'd tweet Janice Jordan, right? Like, because it was just fun. It was this new thing.

It was fresh that I didn't know I was going to be getting to be excited about. And then, you know, you lose that first time to Toronto in a way that was questionable. And we're like, you know what? We're giving you all. And then you come back even stronger the next year and you're winning at a crazy 60-something win rate and you're winning your second MVP. And then you get smoked by the heat? Yeah.

down three oh yeah no no you're not cute anymore it's not cute anymore so he's just we went through it with lebron right like we thought the spurs finally getting swept was cute then you lose to boston then you lose to the um to the magic then you lose to boston again then you you know you should crap the bed against dallas and it's like hold on now yeah are you a fraud did we put all this love and faith in you for no reason then he proves himself and we get the redemption story and you know that's that's the cycle, man. It's the vicious cycle that we go through

in this game. It does feel though that specifically for the unicorn generation the party's over a little bit like for towns Przingus obviously like has off court stuff

plus the knees the lower leg injuries or whatever but like I do feel like that that group of guys that everybody was just like I'm just delighted that I can see a seven footer who shoots threes

and passes like that and now it's like but you guys you guys are gonna win ever like what's up what's up towns like are you gonna actually put some Ws up?

Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I watched that Britney Spears, New York Times joined the other day, and it's not dissimilar, honestly. It's the same cycle. It's the same, like, we meet this person, we get excited about them, they conquer the world, and they're getting All-Star teams, and they're getting acknowledged,

and they're getting this, and they're getting money, they're signing maxes, they're doing this, and then eventually we get tired of it. We want to see you do something else, and then we want to see the resurrection again. That's right. Was, thank you so much for joining me today, man.

Thank you for having me, man. This was incredible. We'll have to do it again. Yes, sir. Thanks so much to Was. Thank you so much for listening to The Answer. This is so far this season. It's been really a lot of fun doing it.

Stay tuned to the Ringar, MBA show. We obviously have the full slate of shows, real ones, group chat. Ringrambia University is every other week. We've got the answer on Fridays and make sure you're listening to the mismatch and make sure you're listening to Bill Simmons, who's an important podcaster for a lot of people.

We often has NBA content on his feed. So check that out. And we'll be back next Friday.