The Ringer NBA Show - What It Takes to Transition From an Up-and-Coming Team to a Conference Contender, and Which Young Teams Are Potential Pretenders | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

Logan, Raja, and Howard discuss a few NBA teams who look primed to take the next step from scrappy, talented teams to legitimate conference contenders (2:00). Next, the guys make cases for and against young teams like the Indiana Pacers and the New Orleans Pelicans, their early signs of greatness, and any potential red flags that could hold them back (35:00). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming, please checkout ringer.com/RG to find out more or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Logan Murdock, Raja Bell, and Howard Beck Guest: Jomi Adeniran Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What would you do if you got scammed? Would you suffer in silence, or would you do something about it? Well, I got scammed once, and this is the story of what I did. I'm Justin Sales, the host of the Wedding Scammer, a true crime podcast from The Ringer. And for seven episodes, we're hunting a comment. A guy with a lot of aliases, a guy who's ruined a lot of weddings. And with the help of some friends, I just might be able to catch him. Listen to The Wedding Scammer on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Roger Belt there. Howard Beck in the cut. This motherfuckered Mondays. How's everybody doing, man? How's everybody's weekend? How's everybody doing? Howard, how was your dull weekend?

How'd you spend it, bud? Damn. I spent my dull weekend, dully. Nothing. Absolutely nothing I can tell you about my weekend. I worked for most of it. That's my exciting life. Awesome.

That's cool. It's going to defend you, Howard. I wanted to get in there and start fighting with Logan off the bat, jump in there on your defense. But you could just make some shit up on my behalf. I guess I could. There was this rave in Brooklyn. There was this rave in Brooklyn that Howard was out here.

He was lit. Yeah, I mean, he paid six God of going out of the party. You know, it was a whole vibe. That was Howard's weekend. Oh, shit. Rogers is out here storming fields. and Chapel Hill. He had living a real rock star, retired NBA life.

How was that? How was how was how was Chapel Hill? What was going on? Chapel Hill was a vibe, man. Pretty cool. They played Duke. We were there, you know, as a UNC recruit. And so obviously them pulling it off in double O.T.

I think it was their last home game too. The co-eds went pretty crazy. They went pretty nuts. I did have to, I was, I mean, I know this isn't where we're going, but you tell me whether I was wrong or whether I was in the wrong. So at UNC, the recruit seats, like they go right up and touch the student section, right? And the student section stands almost the entire game, right? So what happened was all of the recruit seats weren't occupied.

So the co-ed started coming down and wanting to sit in this very first row of seats that was reserved for recruits. Now, the problem with them standing there is now I'm sitting. two rows back and I can't see shit. So the whole game I had to keep in like, hey, guys, like I appreciate you guys are here to party. Like I, there was a day I was here to party, but can't stand there. Got to go down a row. Right. And these young people like, you know, like most young people at football games, we're having a good time, let's say. So this was my, my entire game was like, and some were nicer than others. Hey guys, look, hey man, you can stand one row down because that allows me to still see or you can stand or somewhere else but you can't stand

there. So I did that the entire game, which, you know, was a little, my son was cringing, but I wasn't standing the whole fucking game. I mean, what you mean? I'm not standing a whole game. I'm 47. That's so old. Is there anything wrong with that? Like, I'm 47. Like, I'm sorry, young people. I don't want to stand the whole game. Made for an electric atmosphere, though. Have you thought about more supportive insoles in your shoes, Roger? Yeah. Yeah, listen. You know, shoe choice at your age is really important. All fucking jokes aside, my mom sends me shit every day about these hokas. And I'm like, what?

Yes. What are you trying to tell me? Yes. Yeah. I am the young one in this call. Hokas are the vibe. That is not an endorsement. That is a lifestyle.

Okay. I was in Europe all over the summer wore one pair of shoes. Hocus got me through. Listen, Raza, just do it. Stop wearing your and low. locked in with these hokas. Literally the only shoe I wear is the Jordan low one. Now the question that I have for you,

Raja, is when you were a kid and somebody like a Raja or whoever is being an old commens, were you a guy that said fuck off or you were like, okay, sorry, my guy, I got you. Like, where were you? What were you? I thought about this, right? I did some soul searching during the game. And I was a combination of the two.

I would respect, because it wasn't just me. There were a bunch of us that had kids there. So there were a bunch of 45 to 50 year olds. They were all in the same boat. We worked as a group. I was the foreman of the crew. But you guys are glorified chaperones. Yes.

I would try to sit down. But understanding that if it got live and it got rowdy and it was third and seven, eight, like I'm going to be standing up. That's what football games are like. But if you were cool with me, I'd probably sit down or just move, man. Like I'm not trying to ruin your good time. Howard, what were you in college? college. When you see Davis with the Aggies and you were in the student session all those decades ago, were you a fuck off person or were you like very respectful? Be honest. Be honest. Because, you know, we got sleuths out here that will tell you, you know, what really happened. So what kind of guy were you in college?

you're going to love this answer, by which I mean you're going to hate this answer, but then you're going to go, yeah, yeah, yeah, that tracks. No, I was the well-behaved already acting like a sports writer guy because I'm a student, but I'm supposed to be a sports writer. I aspire to do this job. I have to behave myself. I've got to sit on my hands. I'm not rooting. I'm being a professional. I'm being objective.

Like, that was, that was pretty much my stick from day one. So, yeah, Logan's just like, he is so disappointed in me. Not even the Causeway Classic. You weren't, you were riled up there. You weren't, you weren't. Let me, come on. It's a safe enough distance that I can say this now on air publicly without worrying about my journalistic objectivity.

Sack State sucks. I can say that. Go Aggies. But what I would. I was covering the Cosway Classic. I was simply taking notes and, you know, trying to write a good story. So, you know, I do remember, I do remember, like, early my freshman year, I went to a football game where I was not yet covering. I was, like, early in my sport.

I think I was covering, like, cross country at that point. That was my beat. So I wasn't covering football. And I was still, like, a freshman who, yeah, I was into it. I went with a bunch of friends. We're sitting in the end zone. And I think it was against, like, Chico State and some Chico. state fans were there and Chico State

fans are obnoxious as hell. And I do remember getting into it with a guy because I talk a lot of shit for somebody who should not talk as much shit given my physique. I do remember getting into it with somebody. I can't remember exactly what was said. But I think it did end up with a couple people going,

ooh. He was like, y'all parties ain't even that lit. Fuck y'all. That's basically what Howard said. That's how he started off the game. All right. over the weekend I went to go see Warriors Timberwolves because as Roger Howard knows I mean I really like watching

you know Timberwolves play and Anthony Edwards play basketball but one of the things the overarching themes that I kind of saw through this game with the Timberwolves in particular and it's early we're only nine games into their season but just a team on the rise and a team that at least on paper and over the last how they're playing to start this season,

at least want to take that next step from really, you know, scrappy young team into Western Conference contender. And one of the things that I'm kind of want to know from either one of you guys, just as we go through this episode, is what does it take to get to that point? Like, we're going to give advice to some teams

this, this, this episode. Let's start with Howard. What are the things, inside and outside of the locker room. It's one thing to say you want to be, take that next step as an organization, but what do you actually have to do to get there? The tough thing about,

it's a really good, it's a really good conversation or an idea or a good theme. And it's a, it's a tough one to discuss without, without just resorting to like a thousand sports cliches. But it's almost impossible to avoid them. So, if a team actually has some promise as the Timberwolves do,

like you can look at the outline of it, right? You can see the talent that's there. You can see like the pieces kind of fit. And, you know, I know there's still some skepticism out there about Gobert and talents, put that aside for a minute. But there's a requisite amount of talent, right? You've got some high-end talent. You've got role players.

You've got guys who are defensive aces out there. So, you know, that's like, all the, all those like little pieces are there that you would look for in the abstract. And then it's like, okay, so to your question, Logan, well, then it comes down to things like chemistry and work ethic and, you know, how how unified they are in the mission, right? And are guys accepting their roles? And so it starts coming down to all these other little things because, you know, this is a league that talent rules. And you have to have a certain amount of talent before you can even be considered a playoff team and a little bit more than that before you can be considered a true contender.

and if that stuff is there and you're falling short, it's usually the other stuff. Either you guys, you have guys who don't work hard enough or they don't want to put in the work, they don't want to defend, or they're not unified, or they're not accepting rules, right? Like, it's all these other little things.

And so I think the promising thing for the Timberwolves right now is, like, if you've got a guy with Anthony Edwards' talent, and he's taking all the necessary steps, which he is, by the way, we'll get into him, I'm sure. Do you have a clear pecking order? And I think they do. And as long as Carl Anthony Towns is comfortable being kind of that number two,

offensively, the clear pecking order thing I think really matters. And then everybody else from there, like nobody else even has an argument in that, right? Like, you don't have to worry. Like, Jaden McDaniels isn't going to come in one day and be like, man, I got to get more shots, you know, or the offense should be running through me, right? Like, there's nobody on that team. You have to worry about that. So I think the signs are all good for them.

I'm just curious to see how far they could take it. I don't, people are rushing into the, like, they're a contender now, and we're not like 10 games into the season. I'm not sure I'm there yet. That feels a bit premature. But I'm impressed by the steps they've taken. What have you thought, Ra, about what? Just the early first couple of games from them, right?

Because it seems like there was an anecdote that I think you will appreciate, Raja, especially that I always tend to see with young. young teams who are trying to get to that point. I saw like, you know, there's always clashes between young and old. And it was, it was very much a, that very much happened last night. Anthony Edwards got into it with Jermond, just over stupid shit, you know, like how people would go into it, but you could see that clash. And it was reminded me at the time and I don't want to put too much on to this, but

remind me the time when like the OKC Thunder was going at Kobe, like in the corner, when they were just like, we're here or at least like, we're not skis. to y'all anymore. What is that dynamic like? And how do you turn that into actually something that's, you know, longstanding? I mean, as far as that dynamic, I mean, that's, that's, you know, typically in the fraternity and the brotherhood of the NBA, we come up, you know, as young players and players fresh out of high school or wherever we've come through to get to the NBA, having, you know, revered Kobe or in this instance, probably the Golden State Warriors because they've been so dominant for so long. And so, you know, the first time or two you see them,

no matter how good you are normally, there's a level of deference there. There's, you know, those are your idols, you know, you can't help but have a little bit of being starstruck to some degree, right? Doesn't mean you won't compete, but, you know, maybe you're not out there at their throats in the way that, that you would be in a couple years with, a little bit more experience, having tasted the playoffs. Now you're now you're kind of blossoming as a star. And so, you know, you've gone from little bro. You're not, you're not big bro yet because you haven't necessarily taken that throne, but you're like, we want it. We're equals. And that's a really, that's a really weird and interesting place. Because typically, like,

you know, the big bro doesn't know that you've caught up. As NBA players, as competitors, there's any kind of professional athlete or professional in general. You typically are the last one to know that your skill set isn't what it once was or you're a little older than you think you are. And so you're not ready to pass that torch. And then these dudes are like, yo, no,

it's not even about passing it dog is mine. I want it. And so that's always an interesting thing to play out or to watch play out. I'm kind of with Howard in that I enjoy watching them. I'm not going to jump to like NBA finals participant yet. It's really early. And while I do think this has legs, I would want to say that if any type of team might come out really hot and not be able to sustain it, it's one on the younger side. I like them because I think they've mixed the young, you know, with some savvy veterans.

Like, do you know what I mean? Like you still got Mike Conley out there, you know, making shit run and making sure everyone's where they're supposed to be. And, you know, for whatever it's worth Rudy Gober is out there. Like, you've got some vets to go with that. young nucleus. The other thing that I think is is pretty interested in how we're touched on it is, you know, the theme that I think when we talk about some of these teams is how youthful, you know, their best, their core is. Like, and you can see that when you watch them play Golden State. I know we talk about Golden State a lot looking old, but like, you know, when they catch teams like,

you know, OKC or or Minnesota, you could see it. You can see how much younger. And typically on those teams, you do have, you know, guys whose careers are at a point where they're still, vying for who show this is going to be. Like there's not a clear delineation of, you know, role and, you know, stardom and who's, who will be the breadwinner in this. And that's usually what derails a lot of those, right?

We've got to break it up because they're like, well, we can't figure out who we're going to, you know, go with. Like, they can't figure it out. It's too early in their careers to really put egos aside and win. And because Anthony Edwards is so good, and because, you know, in other situations, I'm sure we get to, that one player has already proven himself,

you get a quick falling into line from everyone else. Do you know what I mean? So now you can really take advantage of the youth and the, you know, the exuberance and just the joy. Like we talk about this a lot. You come out as a young team that's good. You can have fun. Like you could just joy your way to a bunch of wins early in the season. You know what I mean?

When you catch people stumbling out of the gates. So I think having that clear delineation of power and stardom is really, really important. I think it's a great point. Howard, what do you need to see, not just from like the Minnesota Timberwolves. This could extend to all the other young teams ready to make that leap. What are the most important qualities you need to see in order for you who's been in the, you know, covering the league for 27 years? What do you need to see consistently from a team to know like, oh, okay, like they might not win a championship, but at least I know I can trust them year and and year out to be a factor when we're going into this conference.

I mean, you got to just start with who their star is or whether you trust the star. So let me just drill down on Anthony Edwards for a minute because he's still super young. What is, year four? He's on pace right now. Let me, we're nine games in, but he's on pace as we speak for career highs in scoring,

28.4 points a game, assists at 5.4 assists. And like, that one to me really leaps out. He's increased his assist rate every season of his, career. He's on pace for career high in rebound, 6.2, free throw attempt, 6.1, free throw percentage, shooting 83.6%. And he's even on pace for career high in two-point shooting. His three-point shooting is fine. It's 36%. But he's increased his scoring and his assists every year. And I think the thing, where I see red flags on young players in this league, young stars in this

league is if, you know, often they want it all immediately. And often what they really want is the shots and the scoring. And they're not necessarily interested in becoming complete players, defenders, playmakers, leaders. Anthony Edwards remember like early on, like he was like, oh, he's really fun because he's explosive as hell. Also, he's kind of a goofball and he says some wild things in press conferences. So he's, he's just fun. He's entertaining as both a personality and a basketball player as a talent. But I don't know what the trajectory is yet. How seriously is he taking all this?

Well, the dude's becoming like a two-way force. He's defending his butt off. And we've seen some of that. So that's a really good sign because it shows he cares about more than just his stats. It shows that he cares about being a complete player. And the assists increasing year after year after year speaks to that as well. And I do think, you know, there were some scouts around the league who I think were a little skeptical of him early on.

I think even his draft year, there were some people who were like, I'm not sure I trust this kid. Like talent wise, sure it's there. I'm not sure about his makeup. I think his play is refuting all of that right now. So when you ask, like, whether you trust the team success to be real or their ability to keep climbing, it starts with your best player. And he's showing, I think, all the right things right now. So I'm a heck of a lot more confident in them now than I would have been, you know, two years ago. And then like I say, the rest of it is just like, does is, is cat cool with just being that solid number two option?

Are cat and Gobert figuring it out? And by the way, like, looming back there, it's too early to talk about it. But like, you know, are the Timberwolves going to be able to keep this all together just because of all the new cap rules and taxes and aprons and all that stuff? because the feeling around the league has been for a while that this thing is on a clock because you can't afford all three of those guys plus, you know, the Nasreeds and everybody else. And that eventually you're going to have to trade call Anthony Towns. But I think the early success this season probably tables that discussion for the time being. If they'd come out and stumbled out of the gate, you'd be hearing a ton of noise about a possible cat trade right now.

Roger, I need you to put on your warmups, become 10 years younger. and go into one of these locker rooms, get paid vet minimum, which I'm sure you wouldn't be mad at right now. What are you doing? Where are you, as a vet in one of these locker rooms, how are we getting guys involved? What are, what is your messaging? How are we, what are we doing? What is your approach as a vet in one of these locker rooms? What are you doing?

What's going on? Absolutely nothing. From the outside looking in, mind you, I mean, I'm not there. But from the outside looking in, it looks like they've got. they've got it figured out in a way that if I were a vet on that team task with like making sure we were on track, I probably wouldn't have much to do right now. So what I would be doing was just, you know, working my tail off, developing relationships with all of these dudes, like starting to lay the foundation, you know, in case I do have to step up at any time. If, you know, because we talk about this all the time, you know, when you're winning, everything's good. you know in the NBA in any sport when you're winning things typically seem really good and they seem fine it's only when you come up against a little bit of a hurdle or you hit a little rocky road what would little personality conflicts have the opportunity to kind of you know you know spark a bit and now there's an ember like so so what i would be doing honestly is just kind of chilling like working my tail off showing those dudes you know you know what a professional looks like even if he's not on the court um night in and night out you know prepared

pairing myself to play working after the game, you know, trying to set the good example and the good tone from that end. Like, that's the part that I would play on that team at that point, right? Like, I can't really help you guys on the court, but I will work just as hard in the shadows as if I was out there, you know, so if I got to go in or for whatever reason. And during that time, like, really just developing relationships, Logan, because if it were to get sideways or if it were to get, you know, a little wonky if things didn't go well, for a seven, eight, eight game, nine game stretch. Like, I've already kind of got those things established where I can kind of hop in

and, and, you know, take somebody to dinner or go out and have a coffee or whatever that needs to look like. But for right now, I think you don't upset the Applecart. You just kind of roll. It looks like, you know, they're handling their own business. Howard, you've been around the league a long time. How was, what was the biggest example of this, of this working? players getting to the next level

and being contenders and what is the example of this not working in your mind and why did it not work and why did it work? That's a good question. I'm terrible with these questions off the top of my head usually but the one that springs to mind immediately that did work was of course the thunder

when they had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Evaca that was a really young team that got to the finals very early in their trajectory, just the sheer amount of incredible talent they had probably was responsible for a lot of it, right? Like, I think that would be an interesting question, actually, if you asked those guys what they knew, what they had figured out,

how far they had evolved at the moment that they made it to the 2012 finals. I'm going to guess they're going to say, man, we didn't know shit. Like, we were really good. You know what I mean? Like, think about how much better those guys all got and how much more well-rounded they got. Like, there's talent. Then there's understanding how to win. And obviously, if you got to the finals, you understand something about winning. I'm not saying that at all. But like, I don't know, Matt. That team was just so incredibly talented. They were not individually or collectively probably fully evolved yet. But they did it anyway. And so is that an example of everybody put their, you know, agendas and egos aside, despite. the incredible talent across the board. Maybe. Only took a few more years after that before it was starting to all break up.

But maybe that was an example of just sheer amount of just luxury of incredible talent. The ones that haven't worked, I mean, there have been probably tons, right? just think of all the teams that are like you know perennially in the lottery so they're always getting top five picks I mean the Sixers would be a weird example of this during the process but like even that like did it that didn't work because of personnel issues probably more so or who they assembled as opposed to whether or not like say you know like Jalilal Ocalfour washed out that wasn't necessarily because like Ocalfour and others on that team couldn't get along Simmons and Embed

wasn't really about Simmons and Embed it was about Simmons and the whole organization, right? I'm trying to think of like, but like, it's hard off the top of my head, but there are plenty of teams over the years that you get the high picks, the high picks,

get you the high talent, and the chemistry just isn't there. I'm trying to think that even like early Paul Pierce-Antoine Walker's Celtics teams where those two guys just wanted to shoot all the time. And, and, and they still got to like at least one conference finals. But then again, that team wasn't all that great. So again, I'm struggling. I'm like, I'm literally spitballed off the top of my head trying to think of like teams that had like young guns who were really good,

really talented. Kyrie and Dion Waiters early on in Cleveland. I don't know. I got one. The Clippers of the late 90s come to mind when you think about a team of like guys like that. Roger, he brought, Howard Brown. up the way it can go well with the Oklahoma City Thunder. And I just got to know, as someone who played against the team or was around that team, like, what was it like going in and like seeing young dudes that good at that young of an age? Like, what was it like seeing when they came to town? Even when they, like, it was very short, all the three together.

But it seemed like they figured each other out at such a short time, which is very, like, which is rare, very rare. Like, they did it like three years. How did it was it like being on the other side of that? I mean, obviously, you know, game plans were really tough. You know, we didn't look at them like you look at Kevin Durant now individually and James Hardin and what he's done individually and even Russ what he's done individually. Like they were so early in that process that you just didn't look at them like that. But what they presented was just a nightmare in terms of prep.

Like you just had so many different things to account for, I don't know who in the league. I mean, I'm sure there were a few men who fit into that. There were a few guys that had a sixth man that you would have to do that much of a detailed, you know, game plan for. You know, James was coming off the bench in a lot of instances. So you'd spend, you know, the lion's share of your time on Russ and KD. But then, you know, there was this other part where you were like, oh, shit, now we got to go into what we're going to do when he comes into the game. And so, I mean, I guess if if I was smarter, I would have I would have been able to kind of parse out that that meant all three of them were. going to be these really like I just didn't know that at the time you know they were just good players

um so having the hindsight on that you know obviously these guys are all all-time grades but but at the time it was just you know another another day another game a really good team a lot of weapons to prepare for and a lot of headaches from a defensive schematic standpoint how long was a scouting report on that one how long how does it yeah like you got I know you guys get the little paper that's some of y'all throw away like y'all don't even even care. Yeah. But like, what was that like to guard a team?

I mean, it was, it was longer, right? Obviously, each one of them had a, you know, pretty hefty bag of skills. So you were going to be a longer, you know, a longer worded document in terms of what the scout report looked like. But what you typically get is, is like, you're going to go over defensive coverages as a team and what we're going to do to them tonight. You know, if you got two primary ball handlers that are playing pick and roll a lot, then, you know, we may have two different pick and roll coverages.

Then we're going to get into like what Russ likes to do and his specific kind of like two or three actions than how we want to guard him. What Katie wants to do. And that's where it stops with most teams. Like most teams would have one guy like that that you really had to account for. Everybody else was like, hey, man, we're going to figure that out as it goes along. But here's what we're going to do to stop Kobe or here's what we're going to do to stop, you know, I don't know, Dirk.

and then everyone else is kind of it's a sub level of preparation for, if that makes sense. With these dudes, you had three dockets of things that we had to do, both from either pick and roll standpoint or the plays that they bring in and how we're going to cover the actions

that they're really good in. And that's pretty, you know, that's pretty unique. Like there are very few teams where you have three. Like so even Kevin Love, Kevin, I mean, LeBron and Kyrie, you're doing it for two people.

You're doing it for LeBron and Kyrie. Like with the, what the heat, you're doing it for LeBron and D. Wade. Like, you're not really, the way they used Chris Bosch and Kevin Love, you don't really have to factor them in into like a true, here's what we're going to do when they get him. You don't. Like, you just play him like he's a spot shooter. But that team, you had to work on figuring out all three of them.

So that was, that was a, that was a, that was a, that was a, that was a, moment. Let's take a quick break. And on the next segment, I want to, I'm going to give you guys a couple teams. And I want you guys to lay out the case for and against their trajectories. Cash in on bawling out this NBA season with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money nine bet. That's $150 if your team wins.

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$10 first deposit required. bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after a seat. See terms at sportsbook. Fandul.com. Logan, Raja Howard Beck, what's going on? It's me, Joe Me, back with another edition of Packwatch. Although, it's more like a packwatch light, because even I'll admit, it's a little too early for running off teams this season.

However, there's one team that needs to be a little worried, one team where it's getting a little dark outside real soon. One team where the hours are getting very scary. That's right. We're here to talk about the Los Angeles Clippers, who just lost to the Memphis Grizzlies at home with no jaw, no Stephen Adams. A Grizzlies team, may I remind you,

their only win is against the Portland Trailblazers. This now brings James Harden to O' and four ever since he started wearing the clip uniform. And guys, you're not going to believe this. But it's going to get even worse because their next 13 games are against Western Conference teams. Now, Jome, how do you figure? The West is not easy. And if you're losing to the Memphis Grizzlies and the Utah Jazz like the Clippers did early in the season,

Uh-oh. Ugh! Look, 52 games against your own confidence. That means you have to play the Nuggets when they're playing on Tuesday. You have to play the Spurs less slim! Big Vick is not here to play with y'all. The Thunder, who shy, chet, those guys are killing around. The Timberwolves?

Ant Man looks like Hemothy? So far this season? Right? They already lost the Lakers. You got to play the Rockets, Dallas, who by the way, Luca should have like a half ownership. Co-ons that team with Steve Bowmer almost, right? The West is a gauntlet.

So if you're going to come in here and like, oh, it's going to be a good. It's going to be all sweet. You're out of your mind. And the Clippers have 13 straight games against those kind of teams. It's going to get worse before it gets better. Now, James, you've been getting. it a lot immediately but I can't defend you brother there's nothing I can do for you my man

oh what forces that got there 11 points in 29 minutes against Memphis 11 you're supposed to be the guy you're supposed to be the man out there brother and you only get 11 points and what makes it even worse is you look across the country go you go back to Philly and then They're thriving out there. Maxie and beat all the people y'all traded to get James out there living their best life on the court, man. It's bad. It is really, really bad. Okay?

Something got to happen. Something needs to change. You can't make any trades, right? It's got to be in the lineups. Does Russ start? Does James start? You really got to think about it. because it might be over down there before it begins.

And that's terrible because they're trying to open a new stadium out there in Englewood and there might be more toilets than people in there next year. Then the only thing that they're going to leave Staples with, yes, it's still Staples, is just a banner that says, oh, we won two conference title games in 2021. That's it. Is that what you want your legacy to be? Is that what the Clippers' legacy is? Probably.

And we are back. I have a list of teams for you guys. I want to go first. We ended the last segment with Oklahoma City. And I think I want to go back to Oklahoma City because it seems like they're having a revamp and a revitalization in what they're at right now, or at least in the preseason,

they were primed to be this next team. They're currently six and four, fifth in the west seventh in offensive rating 17th in defensive rating which I'm sure pisses Raja off Sheikh Yuga's Alexander

is averaging nearly 37 and 6 Roger what is the case for them being great and in your mind what is like some red flags in your mind for them to take that next step offensive firepower

kind of all over the place SGA is it's just a problem youth, legs, length, you know, they've got a lot going for them. I think, I mean, that was a pretty superficial cover of what they do, but let me get to the stuff that. I think they need a little bit of what Minnesota has,

not just defensively. I mean, you've got to be a little bit better defensively than that. But in terms of having those, like, maybe one or two pieces, that can still play that, you know, the younger guys have a lot of respect for because they watch them play coming up or watch them in big playoff moments, just somebody with a little bit of more experience there to blend into the mix, not to take the reins from anybody, but just to kind of blend in with the youth that you have there. I think they could use a little bit of that, quite frankly.

And look, I mean, it's what it is. you have to be better defensively. Like we have to figure out how to be better defensively unless you are just going to be this juggernaut offensively that we haven't seen. And even in that space, they're usually a pretty good defense if you wind up winning a championship with that.

Howard, are they ready to live up to the hype? No, it's too soon. It's too soon. I mean, even the contrast with the Timberwolves is interesting in that, and Rajas said this really well. The Timberwolves had this really nice blend of like the young guys and some vets.

And key vets like, you know, a Mike Conley and Kyle Anderson, like put Mike Conley and Kyle Anderson on the thunder right now. I don't know if, you know, positionally or just in terms of skill sets, it moves the needle a ton. But does it balance them out a little bit, stabilize them a bit? Yeah. And I don't, they may not be ready to make that move yet. Sam Presti may not be ready to start pushing those chips in because, you know, part of this

is just needing to need to give your young guys, your best young talent, some time to evolve. the guy with the second highest ceiling or the guy with the highest ceiling other than Shea on this team is a rookie. It's Chet Holmgren. And Chet just started playing a couple of weeks ago, right? Like, I know he's been in the league for a year, but he's a rookie because, you know, he missed his entire rookie year. And he's still learning the NBA game. He's going to have to probably, you know, not going to say he has to bulk up the St. the 90s, but like he's going to have to add a little bit of muscle at some point and just be able to, to,

take a little bit more of the physical pounding. But he's just going to, he's going to grow as a player. And he and Shea, as their one-two punch, are going to find chemistry over time. But that just takes time. And so I'm not ready to project anything about the Thunder other than I think there's a lot of promise there. They've got a lot of really talented young players. I was thinking about this in terms of like, if you just like created a template, like,

all right, what is required for a team in today's NBA to chart out as a, as a, eventual contender. All right, well, you need at least one top 10 to top 15 guy, preferably top 10, right? They've got that. They've got Shea. So box checked. He's already in the MVP conversations. You need at least one other great-ish player, All-Star or All-Star level, and Chet's going to get there, I think. You need to be at least solid defensively, and they're not there yet. They're 17th in defensive rating. But, you know, Lou Dort is a solid defender. Chet is eventually, I think, going to be a really great defensive anchor for them. I'd be curious to hear what Ra thinks about Shea's defense at this stage

because he's kind of occupying a really important role in a lot of ways there. You need your best players to defend, so that's back to Shea. I'm just going down my list here. You need a clear pecking order, which we talked about with the wolves. They do. You need some willing high character role guys. They've got some who looked like they could fill that role. Again, a lot of youth.

But I think Giddy is like a great glue guy. who doesn't need to score a lot, but is a good playmaker, passer. And you need vets who have kind of seen it all, done it all. And as I was just mentioning, they don't have that yet.

But like Sam Prest, if he wanted to push the accelerator right now, because they've got a bazillion draft picks and a lot of interesting young players, like they could make a deal right now if they wanted to. I think it's just too early to start thinking about, well, what do we need or do we need to hit the accelerator now?

Like, we're going to probably make the playoffs without doing anything to the roster. right now. Let's just see how far we can take this and then spend next offseason figuring out, okay, now how do we take the leap? Roger, I'll say my opinion of

the Thunder really quickly. And I want to get your take on this, Ra. My thing is, there's like just an ilk of them filling themselves a little too much. Like they did the slam cover very early. You know what I mean? They have seems like they're drinking the Kool-Aid.

I think I echo everything that you guys have said in terms of I love their offense. I love what they're doing. I'm going to see them on Thursday for the first time this season. They are a team, but there is a little Hollywood to them, Ryan. I've said this a lot during the pot.

How do you kind of just tell them the little young and just like, yo, calm down, relax, it's going to get there. But just let's trust the process first. So you're saying there's a little bit. too much dip on the chip. That's what we're saying.

It's not covering the chip yet, but there's, you know, this is more than a, more than a sample size that you need for the chip. Yeah. Not a great ratio of dip to chip.

So, Logan, that's why, I mean, it doesn't bother me as much. Like, I'm not, that doesn't turn me off at all. Like,

I'm cool with you feeling yourself. Like, I think a healthy amount of feeling yourself is needed. You know, I had this conversation with my son the other day. Like, look,

there's a fine line between, you know, humility, cockiness, and, and understanding exactly who you are and how you should be valued, right? Like, so, like, I'm okay with that as long as we're not crossing into cocky category and offending people, but you're asking me, like, how do you, that's the problem with not having the dudes. And I thought, um, Kyle Anderson's a great name. I don't know how I left that out.

So, so Howard, kudos to you, man, like, might not be playing 20 minutes a game, but like a glued dude, a dude who quite literally does everything out there on the court and has been around, you know, and been on good teams. And with the lack of those, you don't have a true voice in the locker room to do that, Logan. Like, do you know, who do you turn to in their locker room right now to say, hey, man, listen, guys, you know, that cover is cool. Like, let's, let's enjoy the fact that people are celebrating us like that, but we really haven't done anything yet. So, let's commit ourselves to the process. Like, let's commit to this work. And, like, let's commit to this work. Like let's commit to each other being the best version of ourselves. Let's hold each other

accountable. Like all of the bullshit. But let's do that and let the record, you know, kind of speak for itself. We don't have to go out there talking and taking pictures and shit like that. They're going to come to us. They'll talk for us. They'll talk about us. They'll take the pictures of us if we do our job. But nobody's in that locker. I don't know for sure. So forgive me. But you would guard against not having, like you guard against not having that voice by having dudes in that locker room who have a little bit of more of experience and stuff like that. And so, you know, I think Howard said it, right? Like, I think they're, they're, they're not there yet with, with, with, with, with,

with, with, with, with, with, what, or Chet, quite frankly, you know, they, they, they haven't, I don't think like, they're a year off of, of either of them really being ready. Shea, obviously a lot closer than Chet to be on a team with, with, with the good combination of vets and young guys and be expecting to win the championship, right? So in this space, let's develop. Like, let's let them get that experience. Let's let them keep doing those things that get them a step closer, you know, to where we need them to be when we are ready to make those moves. Howard, let's go to the Eastern Conference with the Indiana Pacers.

Six and four, fourth seat in the east, number one in offensive rating, 27th in defensive rating. My goodness. But you have a guy in Tyrese Halliburton who everybody talks about as a foundation. piece. Rick Carlisle, who is a great coach that is one of the best of all time. What is the case for the Pacers to be a player and the case against them in your eyes? How are we defining be a player? They're fourth in the east right now. Are we saying top four team? Are we saying just playoff team? We're saying contend. Like what are we what are we, what's our standard? The case is eventually they will be a player in the Eastern Conference.

And the case and then not the case against them. Yeah, there's a lot of smoke, but there's, there's, there's, there's no fire there. We're not. Yeah. Yeah. Um, all right. So look, the Pacers, like this has been everybody's, I don't want to say everybody's like Darling or Black, you know, Dark Horse team for the last couple of years.

And so it's ever since I got Halliburton, you could kind of see something was starting to emerge there. And they're off to a nice start. And I think most people expected them to be at least a playoff team, probably, you know, obviously a lower level playoff team this season. Halliburton just continues to impress. And our colleague Rob Mahoney's got a great piece about him on the ringer right now that went up this morning. The case against them right now is like, if you go back to my checklist that I came up with off the top of my head before the pod began, All right, they've got their top 10 to 15 player in Halliburton, right? Like I think he's fairly in that range.

Top 20 at worst. Who's the second guy? Do we know yet? Is it going to be Matherin? Miles Turner's a really good piece, but he's not really that guy. I don't think that guy is necessarily there yet. Maybe it'll be Matherin eventually. The mix of young and old, there's some veterans.

I like the move for Bruce Brown in the offseason, guy coming off a championship. I think their oldest regular rotation guy is buddy healed, but he's not necessarily your usual model of like the veteran leader, Kyle Anderson type or Mike Conley type. And he may not be there much longer. We'll see if he ever gets his trade request fulfilled. And they're kind of young in their trajectory, right?

Like not super young by age alone. but just in terms of how long this group has been together. I don't know if there's a ton of depth there yet. I think even as a franchise, you can tell, there's still just kind of like, oh, let's take a flyer and OB Topin and see if this works out. They're still just kind of figuring out what the team is. Halliburton's been there or whatever, year and a half or so,

and like, you're like, that's, he's your North Star now. And you can't start figuring out how to build a contender until you know who your guy is. And they haven't had him that long. also not for nothing, but the Pacers have never been the most aggressive team in the world in terms of talent acquisition. Like they're pretty conservative. They've made some really smart moves over the years. And I don't mean to say that like Sabonis for Halliburton was somehow conservative, but kind of.

Like they'd run their course with Sabonis and Turner and had gone as far as it could get. And people thought they should have broken it up long before then. And they found a great opportunity to flip Sabonis for an incredible player in Halliburton. But this is not a team that's going to go all out, push all its chips in the middle. That's just not the way they operate. What do you think, Rob? They're six and four. The Darwin's of the league.

They just got a Rob Mahoney profile. I'm just saying, they're people who think they're popping. This is what the streets are saying, Raj. I'm just bringing that to the pot. I mean, well, clearly I'm not in the streets and I'm not disrespecting at all. Like, they're fun. Do you know what I mean? Like, that's fine.

but for all the reasons, Howard just touched them. It's really early in the process for them. There's a lot that has to get worked out there. You know, like in the Eastern Conference right now, when you look at the, you know, you look at the standings, sure, like I have them in the playoffs probably,

but like, I mean, what's that really saying outside of the top three teams maybe right now? Not a ton. So like, I mean, I should stop talking because it sounds like disrespect and I don't mean it to be as such. I just don't like when you're talking about, I think they would be a step behind the two teams we talked about first in terms of young teams ready to take steps. Right. Like we talked about OKC being a step behind Minnesota.

I believe Indiana to be the step behind OKC. And so, I mean, good for them. Let's see where we're going. I like where Carlisle. I mean, some of those pieces are really nice. They're fun. They score the shit out of it. I mean, they're just defensively atrocious, but let's see what's up.

But they are six and four, just so we're clear. Yeah, I'll think that Ros, Riled out, wait until he hears these next two teams. I want to go to the New Orleans Pelicans because I want to have some variance to this, right? This is the team that for every... In fairness, O KC is six and four, two. So I shouldn't... I just want to say, I know that they are six and four, two, but they're in, like, like... in the West is a lot tougher than the East.

Can I just say that? Like, is that fair? I don't know. I sounded like an old curmudgeon. I don't want to come off curmudgeon. Roger, stop hedging. But I am. I am and I have to because it's like what.

I mean, if I'm not going to be true to me, but like I know there, but I don't, I don't know. They're a step behind. Fuck that. I'm not going to hedge anymore. They're a step behind those two. All to New Orleans. Fuck it. Fuck.

Fuck it. Sue me. Can I get to New Orleans, Roger's shit? Go ahead. Let's go. Four and six to the seat of the West. They're like the pelicans are like the clippers of the bottom feeders, right? Where you just think that they're going to every year like, oh, you better watch out for the pelicans.

You better watch out for this team. Howard, if there is a case to be made, and I am just tired of making cases for the pelicans, but if there is a case to be made for the pelicans of figuring it out and taking the next step, what is it? know we have you have a notebook full of reasons why it's not going to work. Tell me how it's going to work, Howard. Please. If I just say like, for the next three minutes, is that it, is that a segment? We should have stopped at three teams is what that means.

We should have just done those fucking three teams. Listen. Listen, all right, here we go. The NBA isn't rosy, Roger. It's not rosy. I'm doing this. The case for the Pelicans, here we go. They were in first or second place for almost all of December.

last season before they started getting hurt. There's at least some sense of proof of concept when they're healthy, when they've got other talents on the court. It was there. We saw it. It collapsed. It evaporated very quickly, but that was because of injury.

They still have injury issues. And C.J. McCollum, man, best wishes to C.J. McCollum, because that's the second time he's gone through this very scary thing with the collapsed lung. It happened in Portland, too. So, you know, Zion's been out there fairly consistently. Great, finally.

But they still have issues. And they've got a bunch of other guys who've started this season banged up or unavailable. So to an extent, it feels premature for us to start doing the panic thing and burying them, whatever, three weeks into the season. But it is the case where, like, certain franchises or certain teams, you get burned enough. Like, you know what? Hell, man. I see the talent. I could see like the outline.

There's something really good happening. And then a year after year after year, it's always something. It's injuries. It's bad luck. It's, you know, whatever. The Pelicans feel like that team. And it would be easy to just get exhausted of that. And I'm sure the Pelicans themselves are exhausted of that.

And I'm sure they're fans and probably their front office are exhausted of it. And they're a bit like I was just looking online this morning just kind of doing some, just scanning some of the pelicans fodder. Brandon Ingram's off to a really weird start and, and, and, and just some, some signs of some alarming play from him. I don't know, man. Like, I think, like, this is going to sound like a really, uh, cheap, uh, pundit kind of thing to say, but like the vibes just don't seem good right now.

And it's, it's beyond just their health. And I just, I don't know whether these pieces actually do fit. I'm trying to make the case. I just, I started off trying to make the case. and here I am. I'm already like talking about like, I'm not, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure I buy them. I don't know. You go raw. Why doesn't he get that hedge in the bet like, BS, Logan? Like, why is all that venom spewed at me when I'm hedging? And Howard,

like Howard's living for free over here, bro. Howard, what the fuck, man? Why are you hedging all your bets? What are you doing? What are you doing? Do you want to, hold on,

hold on, Howard, Howard, do you want to, do you want to just put the banner up for the December in 2022. We just put that up and smooth the king,

huh? So that we'll put that up there. Okay, is that what we're doing? Next to all the Saints, the Saints Super Bowl, you put it right there. Is that what you're going to do?

All right. Howard. Arise, what's going on? For the sake of a pod, I wish I could come out here and argue something different. I don't get great vibes

coming out of there. I think they have, you know, personally, when I was on here, like, praising what the New Orleans Pelicans could, be at their best. It was always centered around how good they could be defensively.

I talked about their toughness, their length, their, their, their, their versatility. They're, they're bad defensively right now. They're allowing 114.5 points a game. Like they're, you know, and so I don't know. Like I, you know, I'd be interested in that in, in, in what you were talking about Howard in terms of Brandon and his play this year. but if you're going to take those two dudes and put them together, B.I. and Zion, right? And let's say offensively, it clicks better than people thought,

but it's going to make you just really, really bad defensively. I mean, you haven't gained anything. You haven't moved the needle. So, I mean, that's my thing with them. It feels kind of funky. I agree with that 100%. What it is, I don't know. But I do know this.

when I thought they could be really, really good. You know, CJ, Brandon, you know, Zion is this really interesting offensive player that was kind of unguardable at times. But man, they could defend the hell out of you. Like, I could see it. And then you're telling me they're going to be bad defensive. Like, I don't, I don't see that. For those reasons you're out.

How about this for an alarming stat about their chemistry? When Zion and Brandon Ingram are on the court together, 147 minutes, they have a minus 7.83 net rate. And when those two are both off, they have a positive net rating of over 10 points per 100 possession. So that's not good. Not good. It's tough sledding for New Orleans sports right now. You got to root for Derek Carr as your quarterback.

You got to see the pelicans put this out. That's personal. You just let personal. Yeah, you can. You don't know me, Roz. You don't know my life. You don't know what I've been through. All right.

Last, last team. And I'm only doing this because they had a hell of a, you know, hell of a first 10 games or nine games. And Roger's probably going to laugh me off this pot. And I really don't give a fuck. The Houston Rockets. It's very early.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Roz is going to walk off the pod right now. Oh, you, Howard? Howard. Howard, what is the, the, uh, y'all pass the water each other is that what we're doing what's the what's the come on do it

how about this how about this since they're your darling logan let me pose the question to you let's make the case for the Houston Rockets first of all they're not my darling second of all the case for them is M.A. Udoka does all the raw raw stuff that he did in Boston and he gets these young guys

in the fold and they get into the playing somehow. That's the case for them, right? And then they build off of that. One thing, quick side note, I'm very curious. This is me in Howard's bag. I'm very curious if they do do good how we as a media establishment in the current age cover that because M.A has not spoken about the thing that he needs to speak about. And if there are a lot of eyes on this team, he is going to have to speak about that at some point. And there's going to be a lot of nuance. There's going to be actual reporting that needs to get done. So I'm very curious about that. He's low right now because the rockets are irrelevant other than me bringing them up on this pod where the two respected MBA voices on here

are just rejecting it and for good reason. But I am, I'm just curious to see how they, like, it's going to just be interesting how we even like approach how we talk about the rockets if and when they are good is what I'm saying. Go ahead, Ross. I mean, I hear what you're saying. Like they've come out, they come out hot and stuff like that. I just don't, I ultimately,

I guess every time you frame the question, I think of it as like end game, viable playoff contender. I'm talking about the next couple of years. I don't mean this year, Roger. I mean the next like in the trajectory the next couple of years.

Right. Maybe. Okay. Okay. That's fair because I'm missing that point. That's why every time you say something, I'm like, I don't see them there right now.

Do you know what I mean? But what the fuck are we doing? But I hear you. Like so I in fairness to them. We're doing a podcast. Not in November going up against football, Rodgers. What we're doing, dog?

We're trying to put the fucking network on our back. Damn. Hey, let's carry, my boy. But yes, I mean, yeah, you give him a good group of young talent that buys in. You got smart people run the organization and, you know, finding the pieces that fit what he wants to do.

I do think he is kind of the guy that can get a team and get him moved in the shape that he wants to move in pretty quickly. Like, you know what I mean? So I could, I could, I can make. a case where you're talking about a two-year window. Like, yeah, I see that. Howard, are we as a media contendency ready to cover M.A. Uduka on another contending team?

Oh, boy. Listen, I mean, these things are tough. There's so, I feel like from the moment things got sticky in Boston, like there's just been a lack of information and there still is. Like here we are over a year later. We still don't really know. And I don't know if we ever will. And the answer if you're the listener might will be, well, smart guy, you're the

reporters. If you don't know, that's what you're supposed to be doing, which is fair. Because he was out of the league last season and was kind of off the radar, I do think it ratcheted down the everything, including, I think, the urgency of the media to delve further in and see like how alarming was whatever happened. And I think there are legitimate questions some people might have about, well, how is he back in the league again so soon? If it was so serious, the Celtics felt the need to take the unprecedented, at least unprecedented

in my time covering this league, unprecedented step of removing him from the team, suspending it for the year, which was, you know, we knew that was always leading to eventually dismissal. But if it was that bad in one place, how could it be okay? And Howard, not to cut you off. the league intervening in intervening and him getting hired by the Brooklyn Nets. That's also noteworthy. I mean, that is as there is a mix of both speculation and fact there, I think. Like I think you and I probably have heard some of the same things.

Like I believe that happened, Logan. I don't know that we know for certain that that happened, right? I don't think the league was thrilled. I don't think the league was real happy about it. It undermines another team's disciplinary measure or the, the principles, morals, whatever you want to frame them out, that you're standing on if one team says these things are important. And another team says, yeah, no, not so much to us. We just want to hire them. Also, by the way, while we're in the murky zone of half speculation, half what we think

we know, I'm guessing, I'll just say I'm guessing there was a lot of concern within the Nets organization too by people who were not the ones making the actual decision when that almost happened. or when that was in the works. Okay, all that said, all that aside, Amy O'Dok is a hell of a coach. We know that much. And I think we're seeing the immediate results in Houston. It's a combination of coaching plus having some vets.

And yes, that includes Dylan Brooks, who has been fantastic for them. But also, and I think especially Fred Van Vleet, that was the right move. Like the Rockets, to their credit, organizationally have done the right thing in terms of personnel. You have a team of a lot of really young, really talented guys who are, but they're not meshing. They're all just trying to get their own. This is what happens with incredible young talent in this league. Usually you come in and you got to learn the right way. And your first impulse is to just do what got you there.

And that leads to a lot of individual play. And the rockets were just the epitome of that for the last couple of years. But you start to thin things out a little bit. I mean, listen, talk about like. ugly off-court issues that in this case helped them as a basketball matter, Kevin Porter Jr. was part of the problem basketball-wise, and he's gone because of horrific things that have allegedly happened off the court. That simplified things for them, too, as a basketball matter. Not to put it lightly, but like, that happened. So the combination of

guys just evolving a little bit, bringing in some vets, having a coach who knows, you know, has a handle on things and has a track record of success and is a really powerful voice too. Like I think just even the way they're wired, personality wise, Stephen Silas to EMA is like just, you know, polar opposites in terms of personality. And maybe they needed the hard ass. Shit, the Celtics needed the hard ass approach when, when EMA took over there. So there's a lot of things going in the right direction. See, that's, that wasn't so hard.

Hey, no, but listen, you had to clarify, bro. Had to clarify. Question for you, though, real quick. Roger, before we get out of here, if James Hardin was on this team, how would that have worked down? Don't do that. No, but on a real question, though, how much discipline do you think like that it is required in those instances, right? Where you have a guy that, you know, wants to come back, Hall of Famer, right? But it just doesn't jive well with your team.

And I think if I'm going to give the Rockets credit, it's credit for not following through. No, we don't want that in our building. We don't want to, we don't want to, we want to build something. How much, how does, how do you feel about that? I mean, if it, if it required restraint, if there were people in there saying yes, and someone had to step in and be the voice of reason and do that kudos to you, I often get on here and say how tantalizing talent can be. You know, I've sat there and seeing guys kind of go against their better judgment for a swing

at something that was, that was really, really talented. It just would not mesh with anything you have going on there from, from a development standpoint, know, a personnel standpoint, from a coach to player standpoint, like, that's not going, that was not going to work. So good for them for having, you know, the foresight and understanding of what they got in there and sticking to the game plan, sticking to the plan of building what they're, what they're trying to build and the vision that they have moving forward. So that was not going to end well.

We got that through that unscathed, guys. Wasn't that fun, Raja? Didn't you have some fun? No. Right? Oh, you're talking to me? Raja, did you have some fun? A blast, dude.

This wasn't bad, right? I love talking about six and four, six and three. Like, it's my favorite time of year. Could you tell? We got to get through the early part of the season somehow. Who's your MVP, Raja? I love it. All right.

That was another edition of Motherfucking Mondays with Howard Motherfucking Beck. Thanks so much for coming on as always. We will see you next Monday. You will see us, Real On Thursday. We got some stuff. and the works for you guys, man. Talk to you guys soon. All the shit's ah-ah. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and president's select states.

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