The Ringer NBA Show - What Makes a Team Dysfunctional? | The Answer

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

Chris and Seerat discuss how the Philadelphia 76ers handled media day in regard to Ben Simmons (9:03), touch on Zion’s role in the ongoing conversation around player contracts (24:00), and weigh in on how stories in the media affect how teams are perceived (29:30).  Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen up all you New York fans. Veteran New York sports talk host, John Dostrompsky gives his unique take on all the big stories in the Big Apple and beyond, including guest conversations, gambling picks, and reactions from you, the listener. Check out New York, New York with John Dostromsky on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan and I'm joined, as always, by Sir Toggi. And we are here to answer the question, what makes a team dysfunctional Syret? Have you read that copy of The Alcabular? that I lent you. Not yet. Not yet, Chris. I'm really looking forward to it, though. Maybe during the off-season. Yeah. Have you read The Alchemist? I actually, I have not. The reason we were making a joke about The Alchemist is that David Griffin allegedly gave that a copy of it to Zion Williamson to sort of bond them together, Phil and MJ-style.

And I don't know if Zion read it. What's the Alchemist about? I know it's a very powerful text in NBA circles. Yeah, it's also like the book that was reported that Polinka gave to the players or gave to somebody. I feel like it's kind of become the

it's become like the book you use if you want to try to embarrass somebody for seeming fake deep. I would contend that The Alchemist is actually a pretty good book. I read it. I haven't read in a while. I read it when I was in high school and I read it when I was in college. I recommend it. It's like just about this

person on like a kind of spiritual, emotional journey. It's very like, I don't know, like, it's very like heroes journey. It would be kind of funny if we did The Answer Book Club, but instead of reading like Jack McCallum books, we read books that GMs give to star players. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Apparently also was, like, so two weird things about that story. You're talking about the Nola.com story that came out about David Griffin. Yeah, it was a kind of like a systemic look at the state of the pelicans that are Griffin's stewardship and whether or not two and a half years in things were any better than the day he walked in.

Yeah, yeah. And it's an interesting story and it has a lot of interesting tidbits in it. One of them, though, both Zion and David Griffin really refuted, which was that Griffin in an effort to get closer with Zion serenated him with P.N. in the bubble, to which Zion said, I'm not letting a grown man come to my hotel room and play piano for me. Now, that as a general thing, you know, I kind of want to push back against Zion there.

I feel like that would be a lovely experience. Music is wonderful live music, especially. It's something that we haven't gotten to experience while during COVID. It's really important that we support live music right now. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Griff doesn't, apparently doesn't play piano. That's what he said. Well, that that is

checkmate on that story then yeah yeah yeah it's really it's really interesting um but the thing about the book and also that story that was very interesting to me um is that these stories like kind of like tend to drop in something that will be perceived to be embarrassing for that person you know that that generally like is kind of just like it's the type of the type of gesture that could good or bad, right? Like, giving somebody a copy of the Alchemist. If they like the book, it's playing piano for somebody. Right, like, it's it can go both ways. It can be, like,

extremely awkward and, like, off-putting, or it could be lovely, you know? Yes. So, like, the Pelicans aren't the only team that are sort of dealing with some negative headlines right now. And Cyril and I wanted to talk a little bit about how a sort of maybe

one critical story can sort of snowball into the perception that a team is in crisis, right? So, if you look at what happened over the course of the week. We had media day on Monday. I wrote about Sixers Media Day on the site and the Sixers are only, you know, and the Pelicans are both dealing with

their own issues. The reporting about David Griffin for the Pelicans for the Sixers, it's obviously the ongoing Ben Simmons saga. Just a couple of other ones that are happening right now. Like, over the last few months, I think you could say all of these teams are experiencing either a crisis or

a case of public dysfunction or publicly perceived dysfunction. You got Minnesota with the ownership transfer and Grison Roses's exit. You got Dallas with the Carlisle exit, the front office upheaval between Donnie Nelson and Haralabad Volgaris and Nico Harrison. Portland obviously had their coaching drama and the Dane alleged train demand, although that's being disputed by Dame. Golden State did not make any trades with their draft picks, thus leaving KD. Draymond, Steph, and Clay to play with kids this season, which may or may not work out. Now we have the Wiggins thing going on this week. In Brooklyn, there is the ongoing Kyrie saga.

In Utah, somewhat unremarked upon, there was an ownership change last year. Now we've got front office changes. There's been a medical staff overhaul and slight rumblings of a Donovan versus Rudy issue that lingers on. So that's a bunch of really good teams or teams that hope to be really good,

kind of getting off on the wrong foot as the season starts. Some of that is very complicated because of the vaccine stuff. it is just your kind of more quotidian front office drama. But I think the thing that defines all these teams is whether or not they were championship contenders here is that they had expectations this season. And that kind of was what defines a crisis, a team in crisis or a team experiencing a large amount of dysfunction is that we don't really say that about Cleveland. And we don't really say that about Oklahoma City. You know, in fact, in the case of Oklahoma City, we'll be like,

oh, man, they're just losing the right way. You know, they're doing the best they can. the market they're in, they have a plan, they're following it. You know, Presti's process or whatever. But these teams that I just mentioned all would like to be better than they were last, than they were last season, or in some cases, have title aspirations, right? Yeah, that's a really interesting way to put it. I think, I think that's ultimately like what it comes down to, you know, a team right now, right now in training camp, we are seeing these teams lay out their missions, right?

and when those things don't go to plan that's essentially when people do start dinging around for these stories and trying to figure out what exactly it is that's going on. It is interesting too that like of the teams that you mentioned I also want to throw the sons in there

who had like that big ESPN story by Kevin Arnivitz that featured the the goat shit being left in Ryan McDonough's office. Yes. So they call that the goat of behind the scenes team in crisis stories. Yeah. And just so everybody knows, if anybody who hasn't read the story, I don't mean the greatest shit of all time. I mean, you know, goat, like the animal was left by Robert Sarver in McDonnell's office. Meant to be a gesture. Meant to be like, you know, like, hey, like we're going to be like the greatest of all time or whatever, right?

And that story came out like a couple years ago right as the McDonough administration was transferring over to like the James Jones administration, right? It was after. Yeah. It was like briefly after. We didn't know a lot about the James Jones administration at the time. There were definitely questions about them, especially at, you know, we didn't, we didn't know that like some of the draft picks that they made that at the time seemed like, well, why are you guys are, why are using like this pick on Cam Johnson? I think that was like a big one that ended up being like pretty smart. But the suns and jazz are really interesting to me because those are two good teams. And I wonder, you know, I will get into like the dysfunction part of this as well with like some of the teams that never really seemed to get off the ground. but I wonder if you need that type of story to happen to you sometimes.

Yeah, you know, I mean, I suppose, right, that's like what's the iron shapes iron. Like you basically need some sort of like stressful situation to emerge stronger, more or less. But I would suggest that like oftentimes what happens is this is the first harbinger of something really like, of like a, a, turn for the worst. It's like usually when places start spring leaks, when you've got a lot of anecdotes about GM's piano playing habits or

agents not being happy with how a GM does his business. I mean, the Roses postmortems were like plentiful. You know, they were all and it seemed like even in the podcast circuit a lot of reporters were like, I had heard similar things, which is always kind of a bad sign when it was like a

poorly kept secret that somebody is not running the organization in the right way or at least perceived not to be right in the organization the right way. Let's talk about some of these specific teams, though, because Media Day is supposed to be pretty benign. You know, like, it's supposed to be, I'm standing here, I take my team photo where I'm standing in front of like a white backdrop

with holding a basketball in my hand, and like we're just all smiles and everybody's full of optimism. And for a lot of these teams, that wasn't the case. Now, for some, it was because, obviously, there were questions about mandatory vaccinations and whether or not certain players have been vaccinated. but for the Sixers, that was not, I suppose, blessedly, a big concern.

That was, this was more about Ben Simmons. And I wanted to ask you, do you think that the Sixers, from a team standpoint, handled this week well in regards to Ben Simmons? Okay, that's a really good question. Probably no. If you're like working in Sixers, like somewhere in the Sixers front office, somewhere in a, are you like, we had a no, week, all things being equal.

I wonder how much has actually a change in terms of his trade request or anything, right? Maybe it's just a week that doesn't essentially matter. It's just like a bunch of shit that's said and doesn't really change, remove the needle, which was kind of like the Sixers, the Sixers offseason, right?

But I think, man, like, the thing I noticed watching their training camp videos was this attempt to blame the media And, you know, the media does take some responsibility. I think, like, the player takes on media breaking up teams is really interesting.

And I think it's essentially a part of what we're talking about. But there also seem to be within that, like, a lack of accountability about what they actually said. Like, Doc Rivers, you know, basically, you know, I've been saying he was taken out of context. And, like, you know, he re-explained what he meant, like, by, like, I don't know. My argument to that, which we talked about before was like, well, you know, when you say you don't know in a high pressure situation, that usually means that you're telling the truth. In this case,

like it was about, you know, how he feels about Ben Simmons as a championship point guard. And, you know, they just kind of keep going back to that. And it's just one of those things where I think that they might be in a better position if you kind of just accept that,

like, whatever it is that you said hurt Ben Simmons. But at the same time, it's like, you know, if you look at Joelle, he is terminally honest. He's just terminally honest all the time.

I don't know if that's like something he's capable of doing. He seems to have like a level of self-awareness about it now at this point where I think like he's kind of like acknowledged through other mediums that Ben Simmons is like is not motivated in the same way that Joel is. You know, he kind of said like he said it about Philly fans about like how Philly fans are towards the players. Now some players really like it. and some players don't, but like, you know, Joelle is kind of a Philly fad, you know? Sure. He's like, yeah, it shakes. Like, the best part about that whole thing was the long answer that he gave about, like, the Ben's situation, his disappointment was just like, yeah, we, you know, we've really built around this guy.

Like, we have a bunch of really high level three point shooters around him. We have me as a stretch five and like, you know, shake is good. You could definitely be a better shooter, though, but he's pretty good. It's just awesome. Like, you know, you just, you can, those are the little things where you can tell in somebody's, like, inner monologue and how they speak, that they just aren't, like, an inherently dishonest person. And, like, that has probably impacted the way that those two interact.

Yeah. But on the other end, like, I think it's really hard to hold somebody accountable when you can't be honest with them. So there's definitely two sides to it. Yeah, I think it goes both ways. So the interesting thing about this week to me has been, I tend to be a little bit skeptical about the idea that when a report comes out. So like Sam Amick wrote a report that was about Ben Simmons feels like he has come to the end of the road with his time with Joe Allenby.

And here's all these reasons why he wants to run his own offense. He wants to have a more complimentary system for him. That came out almost the next, I think really the next morning after the Sixers had done their initial press availability. Doc and Darrell had done their press conference where they mentioned the fans. they mentioned that Ben requested a trade or Ben's reps requested a trade at the Chicago Draft Combine, that they had been in contact, that they were

kind of still unclear about why he wanted a trade, and that they were ready, willing, and able to welcome him back into the fold and that they did not want to trade him. And then the next day, Sam, MX piece comes out in the athletic, and it's basically about how Ben, it's targeted at Joel.

It's not about Doc. It's not about Darrell. It's not about the team tried to trade me for Hardin. the things that we'd sort of said before, it was about Benzeman's not wanting to play with Joel M. B.D. then Joel M. B. gets his second shot at Media Day. So he had the first one where I felt like he played, he read from his script and was just like, you know, we're better with him. I hope he's here, yada yada. Then the second time after the Sam Amick report, it obviously got to him. And now I will even note that in this second media availability that he had, he resisted doing this for a little while. I think that they talk about this a little bit of,

a little bit on the hoop collective pod with Windhorst. They like, that Joe was asked multiple times like, because I think he said initially like, I'm disappointed by whether it was that report or the fact that Ben still wasn't there. He mentioned he was disappointed. And then I think people kept saying like, why are you disappointed? Why are you disappointed?

He finally did this monologue about Al Horford and why they should still have Jimmy Butler, but got rid of him because that suited Ben Simmons's game more. And, you know, it's not like he wants to stand out at the three point line all the time. So he feels like he's making concessions for Ben. game and we've done everything we can to accommodate Ben Simmons. It was, it was like the Band-Aid came off real fast in that second media availability. But what I find fascinating is this idea that there's like a proxy war going on between Clutch and the Sixers of like these anonymous

reports of people saying like sources close to Simmons or sources within Simmons camp say Simmons is done playing with MB, he doesn't want to do that. And then somebody probably as savvy as Joel and Bid will be drawn in on that as if Ben Simmons literally said that. He very well may have signed off on someone saying that to Sam Amick. I don't know. But we have now entered the zone where these people are having an argument where they don't even know if anybody actually said that. We joked about the David Griffin piano playing thing. Like, what if Ben didn't say that? What if Rich Paul didn't say that? What if that's somebody who's like adjacent to adjacent to somebody's camp. I'm sure Amix got really good sources here, but this is kind of the reality of the modern

NBA media where a lot of it is driven by anonymous sourced material. We run it here at the ringer a lot. It is the game you play, but I think it does kind of get into a really murky territory about like who is actually speaking for who here. It makes things really confusing, and it makes it hard to answer simple questions about like about situations. Um, like the, The one that I was going to ask you, honestly, is just like, looking at the situation right now, do you believe that the Sixers don't want to trade Simmons? I think that they don't want to trade him for something that they see as less value than him. You know, I don't think that they are building for the future.

I don't think first round draft picks have a ton of value to them. And I don't think that they are in any mood to do a Kauai trade like the Spurs did, where it's just like, we just have to get this guy out of the building. We have to stop answering questions about this. And I think that the spurs are a very instructive case of be very careful what you do in this situation. And it can get ugly and it could be, you know, I mean, I think that the Anthony Davis, James Hardin, and Kauai Leonard situations were all different for different reasons.

I think those guys spent various amounts of time with those teams. I think those guys had various medical situations. I think those guys had different representation. But the Ben Simmons case is really, is really interesting because this is a guy entering his prime under multiple years of a contract remaining and his value has a ton of variance. So I think that the Sixers are obviously comfortable. If I could read anything between the lines of Darrell and Doc at their media day, it was like two guys who just are not worried about job security and are not worried about

whether or not like they're going to let this define like their sort of professional standing and they're happy, like, not happiness, but like, I don't think that those guys are like, this is knocking me off my square. I'm not a tilt because Ben Simmons wants a trade. Did you, but I can't tell if I'm reading this through Philly Color glasses or, because I was listening to Windhorst this morning and they were like, man, this is, this was this week was a win for Ben Simmons. They were like, Ben Simmons has more leverage now because it's obvious that like, and Bede is now saying, like, I don't want him back in some ways. I think that's, I think that's probably fair. Like, the more, I mean, the more of this looks like a

real beef. First of all, it does become more of a distraction. And it does, then it starts to actually make Simmons less valuable to the Sixers themselves as well. And you do start to have to think about like, hey, what is this going to cost us in terms of like locker room chemistry and things like that? Now, Mori, I mean, I don't want to say Mori is somebody who doesn't believe in that type of thing. I think it would be a little bit reductive. But at the same time, like, you know, anytime I've asked about it and it's like stuff that he's he said uh before it's he just kind of is like well you know chemistry is a three game winning streak yeah um i wonder if he might look back at like some of those rockets teams and the way that they have they just completely fell apart um and and think like hey

maybe there is actually more to this than than that so i'm i'm curious like how ugly it gets and how much they care about how ugly it gets because it also feels like like doc is somebody is probably on the other end of the spectrum and is somebody who also, you know, he's going to be the one that's in that locker room trying to manage it. I wonder what his perspective on, on it is and like how I guess ugly they'll let it get before before pulling the trigger on something. Could it get uglier? I mean, I guess it could be. Today's October 1st. Yeah. Oh, that is, that was, this is supposed to be Simmons next salary installment. Yeah, he's supposed to receive a little bit more than $8 million today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I love that for him. But yeah, we'll see. I mean, we'll see. We'll see if he gets the full eight, right? I mean, that's one thing that Mori, like, didn't really talk about a lot. But like, when he was asked about it, he was basically just like, well, you know, the rules are very clear in terms of what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Which suggests like, yes, he will, if he doesn't show up to games, he will be getting fined. And I guess at that point, it just becomes like, I don't know, if I'm Ben Simmons, like, I take the L there. You know, I'll take the short term money loss. of money that probably never be able to really spend in my life to get a little bit more happiness for sure. So I don't know. I think it can get pretty ugly from here. I'm starting to just feel like, I'm starting to feel like it's going to be like, you know, CJ McCallam's just going to be a sixer, sooner.

If that happens now, I'm going to be mad because that's what I wanted to have happen in June. You know, like if that is where we wind up, all Damien Lillard fever dreams aside. Like, yeah. I'm just going to be like, guys, like, she could have just done this like two weeks after the season, you know? Yeah, yeah.

But like everything for them is, is so dependent on everybody else, right? Like we talked about this before, just like a whole summer of weeks after leaks after leaks, everybody trying to change the level of levers that they have. But the cards are where they're at. And that's just like what it's going to be. So unless one of these other teams starts to flounder, I think they're just stuck in this situation where, like, they're not going to get, like, full value on Ben Simmons. Yeah, there's two different competing factors here.

One is the fact that soon there will be more stories in the NBA than just Ben Simmons. In fact, this week, obviously, vaccinations were the number one story. And as that happens, I think it'll feel a little less intense. On the other hand, and they, Doc and Darrell pointed this out in their press conference, every city that the Sixers go, they will be asked about this. Every time any player is available for any media availability, they will be asked about this. The Cleveland guy will ask them about it.

The Detroit guy will ask them about it. The L.A. guys will ask them about it. Everybody will be like, hey, so what's your feeling on Ben Simmons? What's your feeling on whether or not there's still a place for him on this team? Would you welcome him back? Why won't you welcome him back, etc. That is going to eventually produce an answer that falls outside of the previously agreed upon way we're going to communicate about Ben Simmons. And Joel and Bid, it took him approximately

one media day before I think he deviated from that. I think that the Sixers generally have pretty cool customers on their team. A lot of young guys and then the older veterans are really savvy, like Danny Green and Seth Curry and Tobias Harris. Joel is a little bit of the wildcard, but I think everybody pretty much understands where Joel stands on this, which is like, I'd be happy to have him back, but let's not make this about like how I didn't accommodate him. you know, I think that's essentially his point. So, yeah, we end every Ben Simmons conversation with, we'll see. But part of the reason why I think it's a little bit difficult to put any punctuation at the end of the sentence is that

Clutch has been pretty quiet about this. They've been speaking through various media arms, but they have not actually made like a public statement about this. Ben Simmons has not made a public statement about how he's feeling about the Sixers or where he's willing to to play or whether he's willing to sit out for the entire year. It's all been sources close to Simmons, sources with knowledge of the situation say Simmons is ready to set out the entire season. I think that would be extraordinary and I think the NBA would get involved. I just have a feeling. You know, I just have a feeling like we can't, I don't think the NBA wants to enter into a world

where players with this many years remaining on their contract are just like, I'm sitting out until you trade me. Yeah, no, that's a nightmare scenario for the NBA. And that is also like the larger story at work here too, where, you know, this is going to mean a lot. in terms of what the future of player empowerment is and might actually like tip the scales to a place where like, you know, people like you and I will be like, well, okay. Like it takes a lot for me to be like, well, you know,

like I'm kind of pro player in almost all these scenarios. But man, like you really got to. Well, like what are we doing with you then? Yeah, you know, like work on your jump shot and like play for your team. So I think the fear in the NBA's part also is that this would be contagious. and the sort of prime worry would be that some,

a player like Zion Williamson would be prone to just saying, you know what? Either I, you know, I might not even want to play out my whole rookie contract. I'm obviously a guy. I broke my foot this offseason. I've had some medical issues.

But like what I want is to enjoy my basketball as soon as possible in my career. And I'm not doing that in New Orleans. Now, this is a whole other thing where you get into, you know, whether or not we are like kind of projecting onto the Pelican situation, issues that are facing the NBA right now about like whether or not people will stop signing their rookie extensions or their second contracts or whatever.

And they're going to start hitting the restrictive free agent market even earlier in their careers. Zach loaded a whole pot about this with Andrew Lopez. It's really fascinating. I was kind of curious about whether or not, do you think Zion is sort of like the next sort of, the next chapter of this kind of discussion that we've been having, call it player empowerment, call it the collaboration. call it the collapse of the contract, whatever you want to say. Yeah.

This one's really interesting because I think this is the one where, like, you know, fans are starting to key into the fact that, like, you know, the media actually can play a role in manifesting some of these things. Zion is somebody who we actually, unlike Simmons, have heard from. And he was basically just like, I actually love it here. It's pretty cool. You know, I mean, he's all the saying all the things that he is, he is supposed to say,

but also then starting to undo some of the dynamic that was, the supposed dynamic between him and Griffin, which he didn't have to do. And oftentimes players don't do that. Usually if you ask them about a story like that, they'll just say, well, you know,

I'm not speculating on thing. Like, you guys just don't really know what you guys talking about. And they just kind of keep it moving from there. Like, he was kind of like actively, working to disprove the narrative. You know, like he was providing information

as opposed to just saying, like, I'm not addressing this. The other thing that's really interesting to me is that, like, looking back at that story, one of the points of contention between them seemed to be the plan to bring him back. Like, you know, they were bringing him back in, like, he was playing in bursts. Yeah.

They were being like super cautious with him. He apparently didn't like that very much. You know, I think going really hard, as he said he was doing, he was really disappointed not to make the playoffs. And he had a chip on his shoulder this summer and he got hurt. I think when something like that happens, you might change your viewpoint on what's best for you in that scenario as well. So there is actually, I think, a reason.

I think despite everything that might be going on, like the Pelicans actually have like a lot of reasons for optimism this season. Sure. And I noted today that Gail Benson came out and said that there is like essentially a succession plan in place for the Benson family stewardship of the Pelicans and the Saints. And that the president, I can't remember the name of the guy who's the president of the Saints and Pelicans. It was essentially like, I'm from New Orleans.

We're keeping the team in New Orleans. I feel calls all the time about trying to buy the Pelicans like the Pelicans. like the Pelicans will remain in New Orleans franchise. Yeah, that doesn't seem to be an issue here. I think if it was any other ownership group, that would definitely be a question as opposed like, okay, like the future of Zion, Williamson might also be the future of the Pelicans.

Yes. I think people were talking about that with Anthony Davis. We're just like, oh, they might, this team might be in Vegas in three years. You know, like, this is wild. Yeah, yeah, but you know what? We also haven't had contraction in a while as well. Like, I think there's such a negative,

there's just so much you know you get so much negativity for for taking a team out of somewhere it just doesn't really feel like something that the NBA would want to like sure right now um the thing that sort of defines a lot of these situations the point where you call whispers you call it in you call it a crisis or you call it like oh now this team is on the rocks or whatever is often these behind the scenes looks at at what's going on in the halls of a franchise these laws of a franchise these law largely like source from anonymous sources who are speaking on, you know, because they either don't have the authority to or they're people fearing retribution or just simply don't want to put their name on it. And then there's just like, here's all the things that this GM did, that we missed on this draft pick. We were supposed to go after this free agent, but then like we botched the meeting. All these things that like are kind of hallmarks of these pieces. You mentioned Kevin Arnivetz's son's piece. That was a great modern one. They are like, they have become like a kind of pillar of modern NBA reporting is the team, the falling apart team. In the aftermath of the

Gerson Roses firing, there was a bunch of reporting about stuff that had gone on at the wolves. A lot of those pieces mentioned that we have been working on this piece for actually quite a while and that Gerson Roses is firing. Like, we basically are publishing this in a response to that, but that we had contacted Roses about all these findings and he rebutted this and did that. do you think that the I mean because you were talking about like what the role the media has and the sort of stability of a franchise do you think that these like this type of story

actually has like huge impact on the whether or not people remain employed like whether or not teams are perceived to be stable or not yeah absolutely I mean look like there's nothing that most people that are famous care more about than their perception so you know like I think once somebody like or even if you're not famous like let's say you're somebody like Robert Sarver.

I think a story like that makes you maybe say like I'm going to I'm going to sit a few seasons out now. Like I'm just going to let other people do their job. It feels like that's what happened in Phoenix after that story came out because it was just so, it was embarrassing for him on a level of like just organizational competency.

And then I think if you're like something like him, the whole reason that you like buy an NBA team is to like be the cool billionaire. and all of a sudden, like, the team has now turned you into a very, very uncool billionaire as opposed to. So, like, I do think, I do think it matters. And that goes down for, like, anybody else that's working in the NBA, too, because, you know, even if you're somebody who doesn't necessarily care about your perception, you have to because it will impact the next job you get and how you're able to, like, you know, do you have leverage

in certain situations? And, like, do people, like, does the GM on the other end of the line feel like you have enough job security to be like making a bold play or do you feel like they can put pressure on you to get you to make a move like there's so many reasons why like these types of stories matter yeah um and like they end up like you know like you can't it's like i don't know what that phenomenon is but like you can't observe an object and not change it and i think that there's like there's just no question about that like when you have like just human beings with like any level of like ego motivation and and competitive instinct um it's just it's gonna play out differently for everybody and

sometimes it does like end up sinking the ship i think oftentimes it does um but you know i think you also look at a case like the sun's probably helpful um the jazz like it was like almost a baptism yeah yeah in a way like it's it's it's a way of getting like a it's it's like getting a credit report you know like just you got to see the number yeah this is where we're at right now yeah like i think it was probably maybe it was helpful for the for the jazz too but well okay so Let's just play devil's advocate. You get your credit report and you're like, how do I still owe $35 on a Macy's card that I never took out?

And now it's like ballooned to $500 or something. And like this is sinking my credit report. Like do you think David Griffin- Does that happen to you? No. It actually there, I can't remember if it was on a credit report, but I did get a bill once for a video that I took out from a Brooklyn video store.

And I was like, I never had a membership at this place. this is crazy. And it was, I mean, it was for a video that I would have rented, which I think was like the DVD first season of 24. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. But I had never gone to that video store. And I certainly didn't keep the first season of 24 for myself for that much time. But it was on like, I think it was on, I just got like a, like a, you know, a collection bill about it. That wasn't me. A physical piece of mail. Based on an era you're talking about. Yes. You go in your mailbox. That's right. That's right. I wonder whether or not

David Griffin feels like I did when I got charged for a season of 24. Like, I mean, there were things that I've done, but that wasn't it. He's probably looking at that piano story as just being like, Jesus, they can't be over this, you know? Right. Yeah. I mean, you like, focus on the, like, we have, we have spent plenty of time criticizing Griff before, right?

Like, you know, focus on the, the bloods. I'm one of the few media people who don't know him. Yeah. Like, I, like, I have never talked to him. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, he, yeah, like, you know, there's like the, the, the, the Stephen Adams, which like they reversed you know like it's like a clear a clear admission of a mistake to have then like

gotten rid of those guys um like there's there's personnel things that happen like clearly lonso didn't want to be there anymore for some reason um like j j reddick came out and said like you know he felt like he was he's essentially lied to that you couldn't trust the uh the organization um so like there's stuff it was just strange that like you know like the things that you came out thinking about we're just like, you know, this feels this feels a little bit like, I don't know, it felt a little bit like, are you trying to bully David Griffin? Is there just somebody in the organization just really doesn't like him? It was like, yeah, it's guys like, you know. I think the remarkable thing that's happened in the last five or six years, and I know that

there were tell-alls and behind-the-scenes looks at political administrations and NBA franchises and any kind of institution way before 2016. But I think that we collectively started crave those stories a lot more as we maybe distrust institutions more, right? So, like, I notice, obviously in the advent of the Trump administration, you get a lot of, like, we spoke to 27 people with familiarity with, like, how this thing is working, and this is something that Trump is doing, and everybody's hair, we go on fire. I'm not saying that these NBA stories are in any way the same thing, but they are in the same, like, overall category of story where I remember when I first got into, like, writing about the league, and I would go to an all-star

game or something, an All-Star weekend. It's a Pally industry. It's a Pally industry. It's a relationship's industry. There's a lot of conversations happening in hallways and just kind of like over drinks and on the sidelines where you're just like kind of pretty easily sharing gossip for the most part. And it's interesting to watch that aspect of the industry that I'm sure some of the older school people in the industry were like, I thought this stuff was like off the record. Like I thought that this stuff didn't get talked about if I screw up a meeting with Lamarcus Aldridge. I didn't know I was going to get put on front street for that. You know, like, Shermich Cupchak somewhere is just like, how did this happen?

You know? And I do wonder whether or not there are some front offices or some organizations that are still getting used to some of the scrutiny that they're under. I, you know, Doc Rivers is somebody who comes to mind where I think Doc Rivers, like, like, in every interview he gives, he seems to be, like, very excited to be the subject of the interview and then has to, like, do something, some sort of like work to fix what he said in that interview. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, that is essentially, that is essentially like the Doc Rivers story. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, I think it's like an evolution of the relationships that agents now have with media that just seems way stronger than they were. And there are just more people. Like, there are more people

working for NBA teams, working for agencies, working for players than there ever were before. So like, there are just going to be looser lips and more unhappish. Personal wellness instructors, personal brand advisors. Like so many, like the clicks around guys are big. The teams have like lots of staff

working in all different parts of the building but still having visibility on what's happening. You're absolutely right. Yeah. And honestly, like for me as an example, like the people that I talk to, like I think that for the most part

are not the people that would be like traditionally available like 20 years ago, you know? I don't even know if I'd be able to do a job the way I do it if this was 20 years ago because it would be like GMs and coaches and like maybe assistant coaches and stuff. Like people on the team are really who you talk to. But now it's just so different. Like there's so many more people who are around. And I think there's more people that are genuinely closer to players too that can like

tell you how they're feeling. And I think that these things also evolve in a way of like the behavior that is deemed acceptable has also shifted. which is always why I've been a fan of the player empowerment movement. Like they're like looking at the outside macro stuff. Like yes, of course it sucks for teams, right? But there's like the way that GMs, coaches and, and like assistance and like all the people around them like just do the players is so shitty sometimes. And I think it's good, honestly.

Like there's still so much stuff that like it doesn't really come out. Like coaches outright just lie to players all the time. Like and just like, you know, like there are lies told to get somebody to like sign somewhere. So it's good that now you have to worry about what you're going to say and the promises that you're going to make to a player. Like it's a at least like you know, you're going to see like the other end of it where you know like it's natural that now you're seeing like the people on the other side complain about player empowerment. Sure. That's also what you see when there's any like shift of power imbalance. So I think to conclude this conversation I'd like to talk about the teams that somehow aren't considered dysfunctional or crisis teams because they have.

no expectations in the first place. So all the teams that I mentioned in the beginning, the Jazz, the Warriors, the Sixers, I, you know, I know the wolves are not exactly like a playoff contender, but I think that they would like to be. I think that they would think that they have a core of talent that should get them at least into the play-in game. And they obviously have done a lot in terms of firing a coach and getting rid of a front office because that's the expectation. They also have a new ownership in place, and new ownership typically has high expectations. but then you've got like this band of teams at the bottom of the NBA and they've been there for a minute the Cavs the Pistons the Kings the Thunder who I think everybody is like oh we we have so much

respect for the Thunder but have essentially you know been in a in a constant rebuild since the departure of at least Westbrook if not Durant and the rocket it's, I guess, are the latest entries into this rebuild mode. But there's a couple of teams out there that you're just like, we don't actually talk about the calves in the same way that we seem to talk about like the Sixers or

or even like Joe Lacobs' role on the Warriors and maybe some of the inter-office disagreements about the direction of that franchise. Why do you think that is? Well, before we get into it, I do want to push back against the Thunder being a part of this conversation. I think the thing that

just separates them is they, they do, they genuinely have a plan and they are doing it. Like they've, and they've only missed the playoffs like this year. Um, and honestly, like, I wouldn't be surprised if they're in, in it this year or like closer to it or like, you know, two years from now. Like, they have a ton of, you know, like, they're in a good, they're in a good spot. Like I, but aside from that, like, I, I would say, I think it's probably expectations. It's probably just expectations. Also, like, you know, like, it'll seem like the Kings for example, right? Like every once in a while there is a story that comes out about them and we're all like, yeah, big who they were. Like this is who they are. Right. Like it's just like, yeah, like I know.

You know, like the ways that they're bad are, have changed, but yeah, like they're, this is, this is who the team is. Which makes it interesting when like, you know, like even the cabs. Like the cabs had like the bailant, bailant thing and I actually wonder now, like, thinking about the fact that there are more people just around. And there are more people who want these jobs than ever before. Sure. Like this is, maybe this is a byproduct of like the, the Michael Lewis, like, just like narrative building around like a guy like. I went to her and Billy Ben and Mori.

Exactly. Exactly. Like all these guys, like, you know, you can watch, watch like a movie like that. And like you want to then be that person. And like we've we've talked about how the rise of that sort of thing has impacted the NBA and maybe this is just the next step where like there are only so few of these jobs and like sometimes the best way to try to get them is to try to get the guy who has it fired. And like organizational dysfunction stories are a great way to do it. It's a great way to like just honestly like not like you can you can try to take out everybody in when fell swoop, right? as opposed to just like targeting one coach or one player, right? Yes. Like just like the red wedding school.

I've missed that chapter in Moneyball about the red wedding. Yeah, here's how you really get this job. Yeah. When all the advanced analytics run out, call Wojj. That is a funny way of looking at. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, you know, obviously the Cavs have had their fair share of stories written about them. The King's the same.

The Thunder, I think, are. pretty candid about like where they're at and what they're doing. So I think that there's been at least like a sort of like nothing to see here aspect of what what's going on there. I think that when they missed out on Kate Cunningham candidly, like that was probably like a what is this all for if you're going to be drafting sixth and you're going to be taking flyers on Australian point guards with with your sixth pick. You know, I think the spurs are an interesting case where it's like that's a that's a franchise with a ton of, uh, I think. think goodwill from the decades of excellence that they have experienced. And now they are in a real

kind of nether region. Zach wrote about them this week on ESPN. And I was interested to read about how, like, I think that they've apparently turned down several packages with first round picks or like have basically like shunned the idea of getting a lot of prospects or a lot of picks for anybody that they have on hand, that they're making a run at it with the guys that they do. but yeah like I think for the most part it has to do with expectations it has to do with either we as a media thought you were going to be better

or you as a franchise certainly thought you were going to be better and here's the true story behind it yeah I think the media part probably matters more like you know you see every every team right now thinks that they are going to be good it's just a matter of do we believe them right before we wrap up

since you brought up the spurs why do you think that the Sixers need to be mindful of like the Spurs trajectory with Kauai? Because I think that the Sixers have, the Sixers are, I don't think, want to do what the Warriors are doing. I mean, that's a very specific situation

that the Warriors find themselves in with all these first round draft picks at that moment, despite the fact, they were essentially trying to pull off the Spurs thing of getting the Tim Duncan to bring David Robinson into the next era. I just think that the Sixers have to be very mindful about

like the the Embed window. You know, it's, I don't know that that's going to last eight years. You know, I don't know that he'll be dominant for that long. I think with his health,

the way the basketball is changing with big men, like, I think it's probably like, what do we need to do to put Joel Embed in a conference finals or an NBA finals, like right now? And that can't be three draft picks over the next two years who might pop in five years.

That just can't be that. And there's other things that they can do, to sort of like pepper around the edges. But I think that everything I've ever seen about Darry is that like he's just not interested in that, that way of doing things. But the main thing I would stress is that like, I just don't think getting like Karas Levert and Malcolm Brogden

is going to change the Sixers trajectory. I think that they're going to hold on to Ben for as long as they can to get something out of the situation that they feel like puts them in contention for a title. Yeah. And I guess, like that you do then run the, risk of, oh, now we're getting Demar de Rosen back for Kauai Leonard.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't think Ben's Kauai Leonard, but I don't think you can do Demardor Rosen. You know what I mean? I don't think you can do something where it's like a real like, this puts a ceiling on the team. This isn't even just like a floor razor. This puts a ceiling on the team. We can wrap it up there. We'll be back next week. We'll probably have more things to talk about than Ben Simmons, but it's fun to talk about Ben Simmons. I've decided that I'm now into

this story. I'm back in. I'm back in. Especially now that there's like there's stuff being said as well. I just, I love Joelle just, I want to know what he's going to say tomorrow. And the next day. And the day, and the day after that. It gives us a reason to keep going. It's just what will Embed say at media days, media availability. Sierra, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks to Erica, Cervantes, for producing us today. We will be back next week. Thanks for listening to The Ringar MBA show.