The Ringer NBA Show - What Player Needs a Ring the Most? | The Answer

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

Chris and Seerat share their reactions to Dirk Nowitzki's number retirement ceremony and reflect on his career and impact on the NBA. Then they discuss how winning a championship affected the perception of his career and talk about current stars they'd like to see bolster their legacies in a similar fashion, notably Chris Paul (19:57), Jimmy Butler (27:28), and DeMar DeRozan (30:38). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Seerat Sohi Production Assistant: Chris Sutton Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's help everybody. I'm JJ John Hesramski. And I'm Jason Gough, and if you haven't heard, the ringer has gone local. I'm bringing the fire. I'm bringing the rain from the Big Apple with my show, New York, New York. And I'm reping Shottown with my new show The Full Go on All Things Chicago. We've got episodes three nights a week with all the reaction to the local teams and guests. Plus bonus episodes around all the big games and storylines.

So whether you're uptown, downtown, downtown, in the burbs, or a transplant. Make sure you follow New York, New York, and the full go on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's The Answer. I'm Chris Ryan. I'm joined by Sir Ritz-Sohi. Today we are talking about ring culture in light of Derek Novitsky's number retirement ceremony in Dallas this week.

So we wanted to get into a conversation about some great players in the NBA who may need a ring to certify their careers. And Sir, the reason why we're talking about this week is because you watched Dirk Novitsky get his number retired in Dallas and it brought up a lot of thoughts and feeling. Yeah, yeah, so many thoughts and feelings, even ideas. There were a lot of moments in different people's speeches where you kind of saw the revisionist history happening and also acknowledgement of like the past a little bit.

So, you know, Dirk kind of came into the league basically being criticized for all the things that he wasn't, especially as a Mavs like just continued to not win championships. And the culmination of that was probably in 2007 when he won the MVP. So on one end, you have, you know, just all this. adulation and praise happening, but because of who Dirk was and how he played, just, you know, being a seven-footer who liked to shoot threes and, you know, just, you know, the European stuff, and the idea that he was soft and not being the most physical defender and all that stuff was also talked about and he was so different. So when, when, when the Mavericks lost in the

first round that year after getting the one seed, Dirk had to accept his MVP after winning, after after losing. And it was like, it was honestly like one of the most depressing, uh, press conferences I've ever watched. Um, like I think we don't see it happen very often. Like, Dway and Dwayne Casey got to accept it like way later because now the awards are, are doled out way later. And it was George Carl as well. Like, I think you see it happen to coaches more often. Like they just get fired. But, um, like players like you're kind of, you're still there after a disappointing performance for the most part. So usually don't get traded after we're having an MVP quality season. It's pretty rare. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly, exactly, which might highlight the point here. You can see this on YouTube. So, like, if people want to go check it out, the Dirk Press Conference is on YouTube. It's jarring. His entrance into it is just incredible. It's like he's walking into the building and they're asking him. He's just like, oh, it's just a great honor. Like, it's really awesome.

And then, like, that's it. Everything else is, I'm so bummed out we lost. I'm still so sad that we lost the playoff series and that we're out of it. Yeah, it was really about. bad. You know, there's just like, and he's kind of like, it's a tough moment because it's kind of like, you're getting the same question asked you over and over again, and everyone's kind of stuck in this thing. Like, you know, even the reporters are just kind of like, yeah, so Dirk, hey, yeah, so we know about what happened. Weird. So that, at the, in the montage that they had at his

retirement ceremony yesterday, that 2000 MVP is like, that press conference is in there. And then you just fast forward to the 2011 championship. And it was just a perfect metaphor for what happens when you win a championship. Like every single thing that you were criticized for, especially if you're a player like Derek was, like it's just a little bit different, is just kind of now folded into either it's a flaw that you have overcome or it is now a strength that we mere mortals were just, you know, we're too dumb to see. So now we're overcorrecting and heaping you with even more praise than might be

deserved. Maybe not so in the case of Derek, but that's kind of just how. these things go. Right. Now, what's really interesting about that 2011 championship that he won was he obviously won it with Dallas, which is the team that he spent his entire career with. And he did so beating LeBron James and the Hedels. Like that first LeBron team, that was one of my favorite finals ever with like the coughing and like just it was kind of an upset, but it just felt like that was sort of the point right before takes became like really insufferable. You know, we were, we'd kind of come out of the decision and we had gotten this Miami

heat team. And then we also had the backlash that Miami heat team, but it felt within the bounds of like being healthy. It wasn't like really, really, really toxic yet. We were self aware. We weren't too self-aware. Yes, exactly. Right.

It's like, it was like the flowering of NBA Twitter happening then. And, you know, LeBron had gone to Miami. He took his talents to South Beach for a variety of reasons. But among other reasons, was to put himself in a position to win a championship, which he obviously did. But it's kind of interesting to go back and see how unique Dirk would seem now, right? Like how many players do we have left in the NBA who are sort of tirelessly plugging away season after season after season at this with the same team, the team that drafted them,

you know, playing with all these different formations, rosters, coaches, sometimes going through different ownerships and just trying to work. win a championship for the team to draft them. I don't really have any romance about that idea anymore, but it's fascinating to be here in 2022 talking about some of the guys who haven't won championships yet and how they've gone about trying to acquire them. 2022. Yeah.

That's a long time from 2011. It's a long time from 2007. But yeah, I mean, do you think for yourself, for instance, had Dirk not won in 2011, how significantly different do you look at him? I think it's inevitable that I would look at him differently, that all of us would look at him differently, because, like, fundamentally what winning a championship, I think, does is it just changes the story of what your career is. Like, you know, we're going to talk about Chris Paul later, and I think he's a perfect example of this thing kind of being highlighted, where you have a player who just hasn't won for a really long time.

And I think when that happens in the NBA and that player is really great, there becomes this demand for a reason beyond situation. it's not enough that, you know, LeBron was 18 when he was, when he was drafted, and he went to, went to Cleveland of all places, right? And it was just, it was just not a good franchise. And the same thing with, with, with, with, with, with, with, Garnett drafted out of high school into, to Minnesota. And, you know, Chris has had his own various things that we'll get into. And, and with Dirk, you kind of have a similar thing where it took him some time to, to develop. And, you know, there's all these reasons that he, that he hadn't won, but trying to, I guess, blame the situation or just, I mean, look at the appropriate context, kind of takes away from

this idea that we have in sports that, like, you know, the true grates can always just overcome their situation. And that's just not always true, but we kind of, I think we demand a reason that is innate to that person after a while. Do you look at Dirk significantly differently than you do at Steve Nash? Because of the ring, I mean? Personally, no, but like that, like, I might flip that question back to you as like a non-canadian five, six point guard who, like, idolized him. just not the right perspective. Honestly, I don't. I mean, I obviously think that Dirk is just one of the most magical players I've ever seen,

and him winning a championship was such a hugely significant moment in NBA history and also just a kind of unexpected one. I don't think that I had been counting on that, even though that Mavericks team was really, really good and specifically really good on D and had a really well-rounded roster. You know, watching basketball now, it's like so much Nash is in the game. You know, it's like in some ways Nash aesthetically has impacted basketball, maybe even more profoundly than Dirk. Even though Dirk's skill set for big men, you can see that in Yokic, you can see that in different guys.

But Nash and like the elasticity with which he played this position. And I think you can see him in Trey, you can see him in Steph, you can see him in Kyrie, you can see him in so many different guards. Like when you look at these guys, and I think I have a lot of them in my life that I really care about, Nash, Iverson, they all tend to be guards. but like I don't ever really like hold it against them that they didn't win rings. That being said, when you talk about somebody like Janus, I think Janus is just in a different class than like the Embedes and like the like a lot of the guys of his generation, the guys of his cohort because of that ring. I do think that it sets you on a different career path, a different trajectory.

You told me that you were going to kind of pose this question and it got me thinking. And I wonder if it's really just all about expectations. Like if you win one early, because I think. this happened to Dwayne Wade too, right? Even though, like, I think he spent most of the time between winning that ring, other than that Heedles year, like, pretty much minted in gold. Like, he won one in his third year against Dirk. And I think that, like, what can happen is that you just start, like, your eyes getting

big, right? Like, oh, wow, this team's going to be back, right? And the expectations just naturally develop. Like, because, honestly, because there is a belief in you after something like that happens, right? Like, I think coming out of a championship, you're almost like, you're almost like, you're you're, there's an untouchable quality that teams have sometimes after winning a championship. And that can actually feel the next run.

Like I think that's kind of what happened with the Warriors. Obviously, like in 16, they didn't win, but they were pretty objectively a better team than the team from the year before. And the bucks of other injuries, but they kind of still, like, Janus especially has that vibe this year. So that's real. Like, it's just like the inner confidence, I think, that you can get after a moment like that. But there's also the externalized version of it where it just, it just ratchets. expectations because in reality, like, nobody is that sort of thing that we kind of project onto players that win championships.

Like, you're still who you are. Like, Janus overcame the fact that he does not have a three-point shot, but that doesn't mean that next, like, this next playoffs, teams are going to be like, oh, we're just going to let him, like, oh, man, we got to close out now. Like, he's still going to have to deal with that. Sure. Yeah. Right.

It's a lot like, I mean, it's just like a lot of things in life, like, we think something's going to get us a thing, but like you still got to deal with me and whatever you are. You know what it is for for Janus? It was a little bit to a lesser extent way for talking about winning a ring early on in your career or earlier in your career. Is it just becomes a conversation about how many rather than whether it's going to happen or not. And then when you talk about how many, you start getting some pretty rare error in the history of the league. When you're talking about a guy who you're like, it's not a matter of whether or not this is going to happen because it did or because it's going to. I mean, I think everybody thought, like, I mean, I always just

assumed LeBron would win a championship eventually. It's about how many they can get and what kind of legacy they put together, what kind of, like, resume they put together. Whereas when it becomes an act of a career-long chase, whether that's like a Carl Malone or a Steve Nash or Chris Paul, or I guess even, you know, we'll get to him too, James Hardin and some other guys. It's kind of like a pure pursuit of that validation. But, But when guys start to make roster moves to put themselves in a position to win a ring, I do think that they wind up getting perceived slightly differently. And that's the whole entire conversation around Durant.

Yeah. Yeah. And LeBron, too. I was going to ask you if you thought that the kind of, like the excessive asterization of rings and what they mean and like how they impact your legacy is just a product of the internet. like some rings meaning more than other ones. But that's a really good point.

Like this whole thing kind of changed when players started getting more power to be able to create super teams. Like that is kind of where things started to become arbitrary. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have this thing sometimes when I get to the end of an NFL or an NBA season. I see who wins the championship. And if it's like when the Raptors won.

And I don't mean to disrespect to any Toronto Raptors fans. I was kind of like, that's so weird. This is so weird that the Raptors won the championship. It kind of goes against all the conversations that we were having throughout most of the season. Obviously, Kauai became kind of like a different level of player when that happened. But, you know, there's been Super Bowl champions. But then, like, I've, you know, if your team you cheer for wins the championship, there are no asterisks.

Like, you just don't ever think about that. And when you, you know, you can start to talk about bubbles and you can talk about injuries. and who missed what series and if Zaza doesn't step underneath a guy, you know, are we talking about five Spurs titles or whatever? It's like, I don't know. I just, I think that once you hoist a trophy, it's a real trophy. It doesn't matter where it happened or how it happened. Yeah, I think for the fans, it's always going to be the case, right?

Like, I think you can defend it and, like, you know, fans will argue and stuff. But, like, for me, like, I think just watching that happen, you can't really take away the experience of that. Like, you can, like, anybody can say there's an asterisk on a season, but, like, you can't take away, like, watching Kauai hit that shot or, like, being at the championship parade and things like that. Like, that's why I think for fans, it's always going to connect. Like, it just doesn't. Like, it's like, oh, like, oh, you think this isn't like real? Like, I can tell you it was. So yeah, it's then you get into like, what's an asterisk? Is it just the bubble? Is it just if

Kauai gets hurt? Is it just if Clay Thompson gets hurt? I mean, what, what, where do we sort of start drawing the line for what is and isn't, uh, isn't an asterisk worthy when it comes to championships? and how do we apply that to like the overall legacy of players? Yeah, I mean, I think we've had this conversation before. And it's like, you know, there's an asterisk on every single season. Like, if you want to, if you want to just blow up context to see why a team won, like you can do that until like end of days. Like you can associate Steph Curry and the Warriors winning championships to like the three point

revolution. Because like, frankly, it wouldn't have happened in a different era. It just wouldn't have. That doesn't make it any less, right? But that's just the fact. Like, it's always a team and a player and their skill set meeting a very particular moment and all those things kind of fusing together. Like, there are certain situations where talent is always going to, like, work in different

eras. LeBron's probably one of those players, like Jordan and stuff. But for the most part, like Dirk even, right? Like, he didn't, he missed the mark of the era by a little bit, right? Like, if he had come along in, you know, 2015, I think, you know, everybody would have known what to do with him. Same with like a guy like KG as well, right? So it's just, it's always the case.

I don't know. So for me, that's why I've never really liked it. Like, things always happen. That's kind of the point. Like, that's why we, that's why you actually roll the ball out, you know? So one of the reasons why I thought this was such an interesting conversation topic besides the Dirk retirement ceremony was just because how this conversation evolves

over the course of time, juxtaposed with like the quote-unquote player empowerment era, but like this era of player movement that we've got going on. So this idea that somebody like a Hardin, that somebody like a Durant, that somebody like a Jimmy Butler, that all these players have either by free agency or trade sought situations that they think will bring them closer to winning a ring.

And obviously, in that sense, signal that that is like, not, you know, obviously it's the most important thing is to win a championship, but that, like, sort of trumps anything. where it's like, this is where I got drafted or this is the fan base that I particularly like, or maybe this is where I like to live. What do you think is this sort of state of that conversation as we see so much player turnover

and we're probably due for another summer coming up of guys like Beal and Lillard and anybody else, towns, who decides all of a sudden, hey, I think it's like time for me to move on so I get a, I get a little closer to championship. I mean, I think it all ends up playing out based on the situation. You know, when LeBron first went to Miami, I think there was a contingent that said it doesn't matter how many championships he wins. Like he did the one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight thing. And then there was just like this idea of like, well, they've game the system, right?

But then the fact that they lost the Mavericks and it turns out that, you know, their other runs were difficult and they only went two for four. Ironically, I think actually bolsters a legacy of that team, even though it's a team that we probably don't talk about enough. But it kind of bolsters it just because you realize that it is still hard. And as long as it looks hard to us, I think we can forgive, like, player movement to some extent. You know, there's still going to be people who are never going to really ride for LeBron after he did that, right? Like, that's just how they approach the game.

But I think for a player like Chris Paul, on the other hand, he has something where, first of all, he's in this other tier of all-time great, I think, where we don't necessarily care that much about those types of things that he does. First of all, he's drafted to New Orleans, who were then the Hornets. And, like, it was just one of those things where it's like, you know, just everyone's kind of cool with him getting out of the obscurity of that, right? Like, no one really had an issue with it. Well, not Lakers fans, but yeah. Well, yeah. But I think, like, there's just less expectation on him, right? So a player like him, he can move, right? But then you get the other end of it where you have a, and also, like, to the, to the

Chris Point, like, seeing how the Sun's played and stuff also aids that as well. Like, there just wasn't really an expectation for them to win a championship and seeing him have, like, that outsized impact. And maybe that's what we want to see. I think we want to see impact. We want to have that feeling of like, this is like a one man wrecking crew. Like, that was kind of, even though like the bucks were very much a well-balanced team, like multiple all-stars, like there was something to the idea of like, this is Janus barreling to the rim over and over and over again, right? I think we did get a taste of that with LeBron. and you know what we're going to take this like we probably didn't get enough of a taste of that

with Kevin Durant even though he did grow so much in his game right like he became an incredible defender there he like he really like maximized all his skills and figured out like you know the playmaking and the defense and reading things in a way that he wasn't able to do before like it's not that he didn't improve it just that it didn't feel necessary it felt like it was an exercise of his own love for the game sure but didn't feel like if he doesn't do this they don't get that thing. And if we don't have that feeling, I think it's just difficult to really, you know, buckle in for the journey and be invested. Yeah, but it's funny that we're, you know, we're talking about Durant briefly there. I have like more sentimentality about coming up short against the

bucks last season in the short-handed Eastern Conference playoffs, Eastern Conference finals, that I do almost about those Warriors championships. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's an example in real time. And I don't know. I'm sure Durant, Durant has his own, like reasoning and his own, you know, explanations for everything.

I wonder what Durant would say at this point. I wonder if Durant would say almost beating that Bucks team is, almost as much of an accomplishment as winning the championship with the, the Warriors. I mean, I imagine Durant would probably use that as an example, which is kind of how bullshit a lot of this stuff is to be honest.

So what do you mean by that? You mean, like, just to be like, that's why, that's why the way we talk about basketball, basketball is like flawed. I mean, I guess, you know, like, I think like what I was talking about earlier with that feeling of an investment is just like, it's an emotional feeling. And if you don't have it, you don't have it. And that's just like, you know, you can't really do

anything about that. Like, regardless of, you know, like, KD didn't necessarily do anything wrong by going, but people felt a certain way. And ultimately, like, sometimes things don't really matter beyond that. Let's talk about some of the current dirks that we have. Right. So some of the guys that, not necessarily who have been with the same team for this long period of time, but Guys who I think the only thing left for them to do is win that championship. And we talked a little bit about Chris Paul, who's having like this amazing second season with the Suns as they remain one of the best teams in the NBA. And just like what I was saying with Durant, there's almost something inspirational about how good this Sun's team is that even if they don't win a ring, I think it really puts an incredible icing on the cake of Chris Paul's career to see what he did in Oklahoma and then see what he did in Phoenix. I mean, he is essentially a one-man rebuild.

Does the ring need to go with it? I obviously know that Chris Paul aches for a championship. You know, like, I'm sure that that keeps him up at night, knowing how competitive he is. But in some ways, like, I think he's done a tremendous amount in these last three, four seasons. Yeah, I mean, like, I would hope not, right? But I think ultimately we still talk about him

in the ways that we used to talk about him. And I think some of that kind of bore itself out in the Buck series. The thing that's happened with Chris Paul is just that, like, I think that he's, he has been unlucky so many times that, like, we now are doing a lot of work to, to figure out reasons that he hasn't won. We're also so proud of him. We're like, we're so proud of you, Chris Paul.

You know what I mean? Like, you did such a good job with the thunder that year. You've got the sons to a final. It's so great. Yeah. I mean, we completely, like, we've reversed the way that we think about him. But I do think, I think a ring overall was. it would kind of erase that final question of whether or not, like, his play style is just a little

too, you know, he just, he hangs onto the ball a little bit too tight. Like, it clasps out of his hands because of how tight it, like, he hangs onto it, which, I mean, I feel like literally happened in 2014. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's about kind of eradicating that question, I think, of like, why can't Chris Paul win? Because, When a player is that great, I think that's just a question that we always ask. And then then we start thinking of reasons. And then, you know, some of the reasons are weird. It's like all the reasons that he's good are actually the reasons that he's bad,

which is, I mean, as a narrative, it's a delicious sort of thing that is fun for us to hang on to, like, the idea of the double-edged sword. What do you mean by, like, the reasons why he's good or the reasons why he's also bad? Like, oh, like, the idea of, like, look at the Sun's team, right? Like, he has, like, this ability to get people to, do the thing that they need him to do. Like he he has like this sort of thing where he's a taskmaster in a lot of ways and like a team can really find like a unified purpose around that. Like they can for a young team like the sons it's about adding like the discipline. But on the other end of it like

we kind of have in the past like have had like on the Clippers team like there was the idea of that style wearing on you which you know it definitely can exist as both things. I think like most things like that do. But for Chris, those types of things, like, I feel like take up too much room in the explanation for why he hasn't won. Like, they have gone from being considered a flaw or just, like, you know, a consequence of his, just who he is, to being kind of considered a fatal flaw in certain cases. And I think that's where we kind of get lost. And that's where I think, like, Like with Dirk and like with KG, I think that's why I think winning one would actually have an incredible impact for him for his legacy. Because it would be a complete reversal of all the things that we've been kind of trying to convince ourselves are true about Chris Paul.

And to some extent they are. It's just that they're not as big of a deal as I think people say they are. Like there's a lot of juxtaposition of Steph and Chris and not needing to control the offense and being able to let go. and, you know, Chris's style creating predictability. And that did bear itself out against the Warriors, but guess what? They beat everyone, you know? It's like, you're punishing the guy who came really, really close for not being able to get over the hump versus just like looking at the rest of the league and considering all

the reasons why nobody else could beat them either. Who are some other guys that you have in mind when you're thinking about, like, these dirk dudes who need a ring? Chris is probably the biggest, right? I think, I mean, I don't know. I'd be curious, because this kind of goes back to the case. the stuff we talked about with KD, I would be really curious to see what would happen if James Hardin won a ring this year. Like, I think it would actually break certain people's brains.

I've been thinking about that a lot over the last 10 days watching him play basketball. Because he's been kind of returning for him a little bit. Did you watch the Kyrie game the other night, the Pacers game? The impossible to solve math problem that the Nets present you was like on full display. And there were a couple of times where it wasn't even like a guy like Patty Mills or whoever was the like, you know, there was a playoff on Twitter that had a Patty Mills bucket. But there were a couple of Nets buckets where it wasn't even like, oh, they got this guy going back door. It was like, there's no one on that side of the court. Like, there's nobody even like who's able to guard that scoring, the guy who scored because like they're all trying to somehow double three players elsewhere.

It was, I was like, if this is what it's going to be, it's going to be a quick playoffs. So what do you think happens if this, like, let's say Harden, like, let's say Harden, like, plays really well. Let's say he ends up being like the second best player on that team and it's not close and he ends up, you know, just he takes some good charges. Like he shows some grit and like, and they get there, you know? I love that all he has to do is take some good charges. It kind of is though sometimes. Is your question more like how do we look at him or does it erase our memory of what's happened with him in the past in the playoffs? Because what do you think about that? Like, do you think it just takes away everything that happened with Houston? Do you think it takes away all the

misthrees or the injuries or whatever? Or do you think it would just be like another version of Durant going to the Warriors or whatever where it's like yeah, you needed to go join up with a bunch of guys to win it to win it. Yeah, it's almost like like Hardin becomes a KD of that situation now. I think that's probably most likely what would happen just because like not for really any fault of Hardens. Um, like unless he somehow became like the best player in or like average, a triple double or something. And I think, again, like, you know, if it looks hard and he does some hard things, and he, you know, he ends up being, like, the reason, like, that they won a few, like,

critical games, then I think you can say that there's a little room for maneuvering in this take. But in general, I think that in most cases of the Nets winning a championship, it would end up, like, the KD thing just because I think KD would be, like, superhuman, right? And everybody next to him would just wouldn't really, would, really, would it. really like measure up in that same way. And there's also just, we just don't really want to give him that, you know, I think, I think that is a lot of what this comes down to. It's the same as KD. Like, there is a part of, I don't know, like the media or whatever that just doesn't want to give it to

KD, right? Just like they didn't want to give it to LeBron. So they'll find a way not to. And it goes back to what you said about like the invention of like more asterisk type, you know, uh, viewpoints on this, on this stuff. So it's funny we're talking about guys moving teams and, and, searching for rings because the two other players I really wanted to talk about in this context are probably long shots to some extent to win a ring this year but are both in the mix I think and one is demar de rosen who uh was kind of like this sacrificial lamb for Toronto's miracle season and the other is Jimmy Butler who has made his kind of appetite for a ring or his thirst for a ring kind of the central organizing principle of his basketball career where it's

like he is the only one who can truly hear jazz. You know, like, he's like, I understand how to win a ring, and I will get up at three in the morning on the Mark Wahlborg's sleep diet to do it. And all of these other losers are the thing that's holding me back. And that's maybe a little bit of scar tissue from Philly. But like, you know, exits from Chicago, Minnesota and Philadelphia all kind of suggested that Jimmy was like, this project isn't serious enough for me. So he finally finds his basketball home, heat culture, goes to Miami,

and they're very good. I mean, they've been obviously, like, they've barely been able to field a team for most of the season. But you have to assume that, like, if they get their guys back and they start to go in the right direction this season with Lowry, that we could see him in a deep Eastern Conference playoff round. And then on the flip side, DeRosen, who's, like, in the mix for MVP and is on one of the best teams in basketball and certainly my favorite team to watch. And it's like, he's like the flip of that. I would do anything for that dude to win a ring. If you were told me two years ago that DeMard de Rosen's going to be on the best team on the Eastern Conference,

I would just assume he was a hired gun for the Nets. Like I can't believe what I'm seeing in Chicago. So for those two guys, what do you think about either one of them? I think with Jimmy, he's almost already done it, right? Where I don't think anybody, you know, coming into his career is the 30th pick in the draft, right? And he built himself into an all-star. So there's already the built-in factor of there were never really a lot of expectations on him. And anything, like anything he could do now, like he's already,

he's already way exceeded what anybody thought his career could be. And on the other end of it, like, the heat made the finals, and we saw that cultural cohesion to the point where it became annoying. But was also, like, very much built in truth and also a little bit, like, getting lost. And I think it's probably good for Jimmy to go into a situation where, like, his values are affirmed. But seeing the other side of it, like, what's going on with Philly right now and Simmons and, you know, just, like, everything,

with the timber wolves. It's kind of like, you know, I feel like he proved himself right in like the second round in 2020, you know? I mean, it'd be great if they want to ring, right? You know, it would bolster his legacy for sure. And probably get him a little bit more higher in like the camp of like two-way wings

when you talk about guys like Hawaii Leonard, but I don't think that it makes like a huge change in perception of how we see him because I think most people have actually kind of seen the light on that one. What about DeRosen? What do you think about DeRosen? I think that this season is like this is a touch season. Like there's something happening. Maybe I just love, like we've talked about this before, maybe I just love watching games where

Stacey King's announcing. Who doesn't? But the last couple of weeks, the season in general, the way they play, the fact that they haven't regressed, they haven't gone anywhere, they seem to be gaining like more or more belief in what they're doing. Dave weathered a lot of COVID and he's like hitting game winners twice in a week and just like is obviously become like the avatar of that team in a way that Levine really wasn't and has kind of resurrected his career and somehow has like the perfect game for this team for this moment in basketball. I mean, talk about some other times in history when it seems

like the game itself meets the player right where they need to be. I'm not saying that's going to happen for DeRosen or that I think the Bulls can beat the bucks and or the nets in the playoffs. I think he or whoever else and maybe even a recalibrated Sixers. But something is definitely happening, right? Yeah. Like you have to, it's just, it's January. We have to believe it now. I'm a firm believer in the ball finds energy.

I don't necessarily think that that can always lead you to a championship, but I do think it bolsters whatever talent that you have. and, you know, cohesive teams just tend to be able to stick together longer when they run into problems. So, like, I think it definitely helps. Like, I think seeing the good vibes and the way that the ball moves in Chicago is, like, you know, that is like a pro in the side of why you would think that they can make a deep run, right? In a lot of ways, I mean, Damar is kind of, this is kind of the perpetual situation of Damar's career where he's on this team of really talented players.

like the Raptors continuously got the one seed, continuously tried to make these improvements internally, like learn how to move the ball around, like really played a beautiful style of basketball by the time that he was like... And then got bombed out by LeBron. Exactly. Exactly, right?

But at the same time, like, I think the reason that DeMar's particular arc this season is so inspiring is it because it's like, it's a genuine version of the things that we try to manufacture. Like, taking it back to Dirk for a minute, he obviously as anybody who wants to do something as like monumental is winning a ring will have to overcome certain flaws right but like with dirk like the flaw wasn't the things that we that people criticize him about because he was doing all those things when he won right like

he was taking threes and he was being like just like the modern version of who he is and all the things that we then gave him credit for right the thing that he actually needed to overcome like I was going back through uh the soul of basketball by Ian Thompson a book about like you know the 2011 finals run. It was just like this personality thing of like just like being cordial and shy and not really being able to like really put himself out there fully and be a productive force in the locker room to like, you know, people talk about how how great of a guy he is, right? But like just not putting all of that out there. And they talk about that in the book. And it was really interesting to think about that because it's like, well, yeah, like there is that natural thing. Most people

when they want to accomplish something great will have to overcome a flaw. Um, Damar is actually doing that. Demar was not a good crunch time player. He was very much. much exploited in the playoffs. Like, this isn't really a situation like the rest of them where finally they get lucky and they win and now like people kind of get off their back about flaws. Like he is actually like he spent, like I wrote about this like I think last month, but he spent basically all that time in San Antonio becoming a better playmaker. He shifted to the four. He became an incredible crunch time player there too. Like his numbers in in crunch time improved every single year to the point. I think he had one, he had one season where

I think he was shooting the 49% in crunch time, which is for the style of shots that he takes, like he was still taking a lot of the same shots, better shot selection since he became a better playmaker. But the style of his game has subtly shifted in a way that now allows him to, you know, just kind of minimize some of the flaws in his game and just understand, like, what his strengths are.

And he also, like, he works in a system, which helps him with that, too, like shifting over to the four. Like, he doesn't have any, he doesn't have the full playmaking Bird. And he is now an excellent secondary playmaker, um, as opposed to, you know, trying to actually create from the top and stuff. Like, and obviously he can still do all of that too. So, you know, it's just, it's, that's why I think it's so fun to watch him now, because it is different. Like, I think we're recognizing the fact that he has done a lot of work to actually change this thing. And I think ultimately that is what we look for. I mean, I, I think that we answered our own question here.

Like, maybe Damar is the Dirk, you know, like maybe Damar is the guy that we're really cheering for, we're really rooting for, and it would really, you know, make you believe in anything if something like that happened. If the Bulls won a championship with DeMar de Rosen as their star player, that would be, like, unbelievable. The last thing I'd say on DeMar, too, is that, like, you saying that made me realize that the other end of it is also true. Like, sometimes we also need to manufacture doubt as well. Like, I think maybe in Chris's case, like, that's kind of what I was doing earlier in this conversation, where maybe he has made, like, the redemptive turn, but like I have a desire to see like the moment.

So I kind of need to in my own head turn it into that. Whereas with DeMar like he was very clearly just like he was bounced off a team that was trying to win a championship and they basically like hit the upgrade button. Right. Like it was it was a very decisive move by the team that probably had believed in him most up until that point. Like it was a judgment that was made that like usually the media is doing that. But for it to actually play out on the stage of the NBA, probably also changes how we look at it. That's a great point.

We can wrap it up there, Siritt. Thanks so much for joining me. We'll be back next Friday. Thanks to Chris Sutton for producing us this week. And everybody tune in. We've got ringer NBA shows all week. There's now another show on the mismatch feed. Kevin O'Connor's The Void.

We also have upside high with Kyle and Charks now on the NBA feed. So there's tons of stuff to listen to. And we'll be back next Friday.