The Ringer NBA Show - What the Dynamic Between Luka Doncic and Rick Carlisle Says About Power in the NBA | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Logan and Raja are back with their takes on the dynamic between Luka Doncic and Rick Carlisle as reported by ESPN’s Tim McMahon (0:30), a quick update on how the Lakers have fared in light of Austin Reaves’s big moment against the Mavericks on Wednesday night (31:30), and a discussion about Steve Nash’s success as a head coach (43:00). Then they each award their Real One of the Week (49:25). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. What's popping? Welcome Murdoch here, Roger Bell, there. Ra, we're getting to the Christmas season.

How you doing, my guy? How's life going? How you doing? We're good, baby. High school team's four and one. We play tonight. Christmas tree is up. Egg nod flows.

How do you do this when it's cold? Like, Florida, it's like, no, we don't do weather talk, but it's sunny and it's a middle of summertime. Do you know what it is? Like, is it, what do you do? How do you recreate the vibe of Christmas and, and, South Florida. What's popping over there? No, heavy on the lights, just to get the spirit, right?

Heavy on the lights, we can't fabricate the weather, but we're heavy on the lights, the Christmas music flowing around the kitchen, you know, like the, the Christmas photos for the, for the Christmas card we did the other day. Everybody had on a crazy Christmas suit for the boys and the family and the girls had on crazy Christmas dresses with sunglasses, right? Because we know we're in Florida. Like just, you know, heavy, you do, you OD on the spirit, bro, because you can't do anything about the weather. I heard that, man.

You know who might not be in the Christmas spirit right now, Roger Bell? Who's that, Logan? Oh, you want to know, Roger? Guess she's not. The Dallas Mavericks are not of the Christmas spirit right now. We'll get to that in a second. They got beaten by Austin Reeves. The God Austin Reeves out of beating.

But it came on the hills of ESPN story that I was really interesting to me with the Tim McMahonro talking about the relationship between Luca Donchinch and Rick Carlisle and it's a really good piece I really had a had a blast reading it and it was talking about how you know the relationship basically eroded and you guys can read that it was it's on ESPN.com and one of the pieces of that is basically Rick Carlisle's relationship with point guards and how

you know he wanted he wanted Donovan Mitchell to be on the to be to be picked by the Dallas Mavericks but Luca really likes Dennis Smith. They were buds. They were really good and it led

to some internal strife between the two. Mike, we can get into this a little bit. My question to you is Raja. when it comes to having a superstar like a Luca Donchich or like a LeBron, like a whoever you want to call it, I'll take LeBron out of this, basically these younger guys who have been wielding power because they are so good

or have so much potential to be good. And they wield this power to where they can get a coach fired. They can get these people fired. And then you look at their resume, the talent's there. but they haven't really done anything. And the words of Roger Bell, he ain't done shit yet. You know?

Right. How do you, how do you, thanks my guy. How do you balance that though when you do have these younger guys and these younger talents who could be good for you for 15 years or so wield on all this power? Is it good for the game or is it bad for the game or do we need just a bit more balance? Where do you stand on this? Well, it's bad for the game.

And I'm not commenting specifically on this situation, but young talent that hasn't produced anything by, you know, in terms of championships or conference championships, dictating the organizations what they need to do from a personnel standpoint or a coaching standpoint or a front office standpoint is a slippery slope. And you're not, you're not really rewarding any real accomplishment. You're just rewarding talent. And I don't think that's great for the game.

And so I would say, then you need more balance, right? Like there's got to be a balance there. And it's like any relationship, rules have to be established. Things have to be understood what I would be willing to tolerate from Logan in our relationship. And if Logan pushes those boundaries, I have to be able to stand up for myself and say, hey, listen, Pippin, like, you know, you don't know me well, but we're going to get this out the way right now because this is not how I get. down. And the relationship, you know, those are tough conversations to have, but people, you know, generally figure it out, right? And then you know not to cross those lines and vice versa. And so,

you know, I think of organizations continue to allow themselves to be kind of pushed around, you know, they're going to get themselves in some really tough spots. And I've said this before, on this pot, I'm going to say it again. I imagine that the next CBA, when they go to the table, ownership and their representation is going to fight really, really, really hard

to start breaking down some of these rules that are in place that allow for this to happen. Right? Because that's what we're talking about ultimately. The players have the leverage

to a point where this can happen. Ownership will be fighting to get that back. Trust that. It's funny you said that because we have said this on the pod and this goes into another conversation. It feels like,

and I want to get to your perspective, because you live through it. But it feels like the 90s where you're getting younger guys getting these deals. Remember, like the big deals of the 90s was what? The Chris Weber deal where he had the opt out after one year was a big step. And when we talk about differences, CBAs and also the Kevin Garnett deal, right, where he gets all this bread. And there's this backlash, not even because KG didn't deserve it,

but more because, well, what the hell is going on? How can we pay these exorbitant amount of salaries? My question to you is, do you see, one, do you see the parallel? And two, do you think the players and their reach for all this power have kind of overreached and overstepped in what they want to accomplish and think, and has it kind of bite them in the ass so far? Yeah, I want to be clear again.

Like what I'm saying isn't in relation to this particular situation in Dallas. Like, this isn't my. overall sentiment about that. This is just the landscape of the NBA that we're in. And yeah, I think there is a parallel to be drawn between that time, you know, when these contracts were things that we hadn't seen before, right? And in that context, like you're seeing moves being made within organizations that are not the norm. It's not standard operating procedure for NBA clubs because we haven't seen players with this type of power and leverage before, right?

It was under an old CBA. There were different rules that existed. And so I'm always for player empowerment, right? Like as a former player, I'm for getting as much money as you can get, fully guaranteed at all times. And using whatever leverage you have to have someone, you know, move or, you know, act in a way that you deem beneficial to you. Because if those leverages are in place,

then use them. Having said that, I'm on the other side of the mic right now, and I can tell you, it's not a great place for a league to be in. Like, that's not something

that ownership and business is going to look at and be like, yeah, yeah, we really love this. And so they have overstepped because you're putting ownership in a position

where they don't like what's being done to them and they're going to try to fight back. It's your right to do it. I support you doing it. But again, ownership has been bitten in the ass too many times now.

And they've been, you know, how many, how many players lately have put ownership's feet to the fire and said, yo, trade me or it's a rap and trade me here or I ain't for it or, you know, the leverage that they have is going to have, it's going to have some kind of, you know, reaction from, or it's going to cause some sort of reaction at the next CBA from ownership. And it's funny, you say that. And I do want to get back to the, just some of the pieces real quick, because I do think it's kind of, it's interesting. I do want to get to the piece.

But before we get to it, I do want to, like, I'm with you with the player empowerment thing, right? Like, I don't want, I don't want the NBA from a standpoint to be the NFL, for instance, right? Where you can just cut bait, bro. Like, no, these are people's lives at stake, right? Yes. But what I would like to see is both sides coming to the table and realizing, no, this is a partnership, bro. Like, all of this works because it works, right?

And we, and I feel like there could be a better solution if everyone just works together, right? where, you know, you did reference players going out and saying, nah, I retire if I don't, if I don't, if I don't get what I want. And it's like, no, it's not, let's not how this goes. That's not how we all run a business. Because at the end of the day, that's what this is. It's a business. And, yeah, no, no, go ahead.

I mean, but I just want to say, because when you negotiate, you expect, like, first of all, you don't know everything that you put in place, right? I get more percentage of the BRI, the basketball related income as an ownership group. And for that, I have to make a concession to the players in terms of, I don't know, length of contracts or what have you. But in the process at the time, you may not be able to foresee how a player that's not operating in complete good faith would use that against you. And so you wind up in these spots. And I think a lot of times when they're negotiating, they think that, okay, we'll make this concession. You guys will give us that.

And then both sides will operate in good faith moving forward. It doesn't always work like that. It's funny because it's like it all goes back to the decision, right? Because the CBA, the lockout immediately following the decision tried to push the power back to the ownership, which was, you know, we're going to make these contracts shorter and we'll pay you more money to try to stay in in your market. that didn't happen. We see in trades from superstar players left and right that are just like, nah, I don't care about your deal.

Actually, I just got my money, so just trade me or, you know, I'll just, I'll sit out. And it just seems like with these things, it's just been tit for tat. And that's just, that's union stuff, right? But back into the story, when you see something like, you know, I think it goes back into this Luca Dennis Smith partnership, where you see a guy that is a superstar who is a young superstar and find someone that, you know, like a younger guy, one of your best friends, right, on the team. You've been a young guy in this situation and where you see a guy and you're just, by

happenstance, y'all live together, you guys are best friends, you guys are all these things, but your best friend happens to be a generational talent who wants you on the team. when you how does that there has to be a in my mind a business aspect of that but how do you manage that when you're a front office right where you're like no man like i don't want to trade this guy because he is so close and i don't want to lose a superstar how do you manage that as a as an organization right where you're where you're trying to make appease somebody and like luca but i see your face right now What are your thoughts on this? You make that shit work.

See, again, we have to draw a distinction between accomplishment and talent, right? Like, I, my only experience in a front office was with accomplishment and talent. LeBron James, right? So when LeBron James says, hey, I need X, Y, Z employed, and I need this with me because I think it helps me and I need that as a as a as a player development guy because I know it helps me like you do that you make that work right that's there's accomplishment there not only is he a phenomenal talent but championships are coming to cleveland we can we can bank on that and it was and it came to fruition so that's what you do you move accordingly okay let's how do we figure this out guys like you get in the

room you figure out where you can create a position you figure out how this can how this can work and whether you know that guy can be around like you just you make it work um but there is a distinction between the accomplishment and then just talent, right? Now, I would say that if it's a piece that isn't hurting our cap, it's not putting us in a situation where we can't make another move. It's not an asset where if we traded it, we could get something really helpful back for that talent. If none of those situations are in play, I say let him have his friend.

Like, we'll work that out. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that happens all the time. But if we're talking about a piece where, you know, it may be coveted. And if I move it, yeah, you're going to miss your friend. But, man, we can get back some shit that's really going to help us. Like, you know, my job is making sure this thing moves forward. So then I got to go to you and have this conversation with you.

Listen, talent. I know that's your man. All right? But here's my job. Right? My job is to help you get this championship. If you're in a better situation and you got better help, we all win. this is hand in hand.

So while you may miss your buddy, and we'll do everything we can, maybe he becomes available again. We'll try to scoop him back up. I can't promise you that, but maybe. But right now, help me help you,

right? Like, this is business, right? And so it's a relationship. You have to have those conversations and you got to do what you got to do. Well, it's funny, because how do you feel about, you know,

I think I was listening to Simmons's spot yesterday with Jackie Mack, and they were talking about Luca and just how, you know, while he has been a superstar, you know, there are things that he's dealing with, as any young player would in terms of, you know, being overweight and being all these things. And not, we've talked about this not just with Luca, but with a Zion, right? Where, you know, your body, all you got is your body when you're in an NBA, right?

And he had, he's going through some, Luca's going through some things where he has, you know, he's still trying to figure out how to be a pro right now. You know, he is, this talent is outweighing the work ethic, it seems like, at this very moment. What do you see with Luca now, right? Well, how do you see him as a player right now? He's so young. I don't know. He's younger than 24, 24, 25.

He's a very young kid, but he just has this unworldly talent and maybe doesn't have the work ethic to do that. What have you seen from him? And how can he get better? What can he do to better this situation right now? So I think that Luca is a fantastic talent. He's got fantastic skill level and size combination. I can't really speak to Luca's work ethic because I don't like to do that if I haven't seen it. I don't know what his work habits are.

I'm not in Dallas. I don't know. Does he appear to be overweight a little bit? Yep. But if you're injured and you're not, who know, I don't know. And to be fair, real quick before you get to your point, to be fair, Mark Cuban did say, I mean, the dude did play for the, didn't get a. did have trouble playing,

working out with the Serbian national team, right? He just didn't. And also, he's played a lot of basketball. There are other factors in this. Yeah, I'm not, you know, so I can't really speak to the work ethic. But I've said this about Luke, and I do believe this,

as talented as he is, and it's going to sound so weird because he also fills up a stat sheet with assists. But they're different kind of assists. So when I say he's got to make people around him better, people are going to be like, what the hell is he talking about? Man, he has, you know,

he averages nine, ten assists. There are different types of assist, though. There are assists where, like, you've held the ball for 19 seconds of a shot clock and danced on it, and then you threw it to me in the corner and I made a shot. Yeah, that's an assist.

Like the James Harden assist? Yeah, and then there are other assists where we just came up the court, you were bringing it up, and instead of getting me in your dance routine, you just advanced the ball, and I was able to kind of get a one-dribble layup, and now we're in a flow.

And I think Luca's got to do a, better job of making people around him better. I think he's brilliant. What he does with the ball, I could only ever dream of doing. Most people could only ever dream of doing it. But ultimately, you've got to figure out how to take all of that talent and help those around you who don't have it get to higher heights. And he hasn't figured that out yet.

So this goes back to the old school, new school thing right now where, you know, obviously Luca is the future of the league. He's the face of the league already right now. But then you got a guy Rick Carlisle, who's now in Indiana and left under, you look at it, kind of suspicious, you know, kind of all suspicious terms, right? It was just kind of weird how that went, how that went down. But you see the classes of two different eras, you know, Ricaral, I played for the Celtics, you know, old school dude, great coach, you know,

his resume speaks for itself. But, Raja, and I've got to play devil's advocate here, has had beef with his point guards. That's, that's, every point guard he's had, he's had a beef with, or every good one, you know, we talked about the one when, when Rondo was on the team. Rondo's one of the smartest players in NBA history. They clash. And now you see something like this. Does Carlisle play a part in this? How do you, like, what could he have done better?

Because I do feel like both sides could have done better on this side, but specifically Rick Carlisle, who does have a track record of beefing with his point guards? Yes, of course, Rick Carlisle. hold some responsibility in this. Rick Carlisle is cut from a cloth of the generation past. He is his philosophy and the way he approaches it is more Larry Brown, more Jerry Sloan, more, you know, in your face abrasive, if need be, maybe more often than not. And really super demanding. And I never minded that. I worked well with that.

As long as you didn't take what happened yesterday and roll it over to tomorrow, right, or to today, right? As long as I got that fresh, clean slate to come in here and go back to work and either impress you or redeem myself, and there weren't politics involved. I was fine. Like, you could, mother F me, you could do whatever you need.

I'm good. Like, we can roll. But today's players aren't, aren't like that. They're not built like that. And so you have to adapt and you have to figure that out. And, you know, because I was reading that article, Logan, and the Salamette Mejuri or Mejuri, I don't, forgive me, because I don't know exactly how to say his name. I had no beef with that story. The story was he was playing in a game against the Wizards, I think it was. And he got two texts and got kicked out of the game. And he came over talking to Rick Carlisle about

why he shouldn't have got kicked out of the game. And Rick Harlow was like, you have two fucking points. Like, don't be getting technical fouls. Like, I got no problem with that. You know what I mean? Like, bro, you, you, that's life. You're not making enough of an impact out here to be costing us these points at whatever time in the game this is.

I have no problem with that. See, that doesn't bother me. But it may offend and bother someone, you know, that came up in today's culture of coaching and so and so forth. So I think the players have changed. They're a little more thin skin. They're way, way better in terms of skill level and ability and size and strength and all of that. But they don't deal with the same level of in-your-face criticism and toughness as some of the generations past.

And so if you're a coach in the game, you've got to figure out, you know, how to adapt. It's interesting how this new generation of players are. And, you know, we talked about a prepot, and I don't want to get too much into the lit. the litness of the prepot meeting. But, you know, you can make the argument. I think the adjustment, and I've talked to coaches about this, and I'm sure you've talked to coaches about this. It's interesting because these players want to be partners with these coaches, right?

They don't want to, it's not necessarily, it's not the traditional Bobby Knight, Isaiah Thomas, you know, back in the day relationship. it's more, nah, I want to understand how, why did you say this to me? I want to know why you did this and I want to know, you know, the OGs might call it coddling. The young, the young homies might be like, no, I just want you to understand me better if you're going to talk to me like that, right? And it is, it's this back and forth, I feel like, between two generations. And the more I'm getting older, you know, it's, it's just a way of life. growing pains that everybody goes through.

But right now it's just on a, if you, if you just take the names off of it, we've seen this in the 90s, we've seen this in the 80s. We've seen this in all the, in all this generations. I just feel like right now it's just, it's just my generation's turn and going through this right now when you see this. My question to you, like, you're in a front office. How do you deal with this, right? Because me and you, like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're my homie.

But it's different. We definitely come from different schools of thoughts. How do you deal with that as a front office person or as somebody that has to deal with younger people on a daily? So at its core, you know, a basketball team and an organization, you know, is a family. And families have to communicate. And so communication solves a lot of issues, right? Like, you know, how many times have you got, you know, half of a message or heard something and held on to it and you were angry? and then you clear it up later.

You're like, no, I didn't mean it like that. Like it wasn't, I didn't say it. I didn't mean it like that. That wasn't the essence of what I was trying to say. And then you're like, oh, well, shit, I've been hanging on to that for a week and a half. And like, so you have to have open lines of communication, right? You have to have, and within like every family or team, their roles, everyone has to play a role. We all can't play the same role.

Like, we have this conversation a lot. Everyone's got a role. So take a coaching staff, for example. Like, if a Rick Carlisle is a hard nose in your face, mother effort, like, you know, abrasive dude, most good staffs have a guy right next to him that is just the opposite. So when he gets done MF and Raja, like, Logan comes over and is like, yo, right, hey, man, you good, bro? Like, listen, let me tell you what he was really trying to get at. Man, how's the, first of all, how you doing? How's the family? Like, listen, you know what I mean?

Just real talk, like shift perspective, kind of get your head out of that space. And then, you know, soften the blow that was the conversation you had with Rick Carlisle. And so within an organization, you have to have those mechanisms where, you know, I know this guy is like that. I'm going to put people around him that are going to be the good cop to his bad cop, so to speak. Like, and we have to do those things. And then just generally speaking, like when I was in the front office, I've told you this.

I had a lot of conversations with players. Yeah. At David Griffin's like request, hey, man, will you go talk to, uh, we got to sell Deano and trying to be a six man? Can you go have that conversation with him? I know damn well Dion Waiters doesn't want to be six-man. I know that he is going to, like, bite my head off as soon as I start talking about it. But the conversation has to be had.

It's got to be aired out. He might not like it, but he got to respect that we came at him and we put it out there, right? Like, hey, we need to have these conversations with LeBron. Can you talk to Kyrie or Kev? And so you're constantly talking and just opening up the lines of communication so nothing is left unsaid, you know? Yeah, it's funny because, like, I'm sure like in five years, Luca and Carlisle, God willing, will probably just be cool.

And I think it'll figure itself out, right? Because both people will get a little older and wiser. But the thing that I see, and especially with sports is, now that's cool, you know, when we talk about like, you know, I'm sure me and you have both had conversations, not with each other, but like two other people where it's like, motherfucker got me fucked up. And then you get context to the situation.

You're like, oh, oh, shit. Yeah, had one yesterday. I had one fucking, maybe last night. But the thing is, you know, in life, or life is different from the NBA because in NBA, you ain't got time for that shit. Right. And, you know, you referenced the anecdote in the story with Rick Carlisle, bro. Rick Carlisleau got time to be, to fucking, or no coach ain't got time in the middle of a game.

All that's going to come out is, my. motherfucker, you, you, you, you score two points a game. You can't have two techs. Or that's what he was trying to say. That's it. Facts. Right. Right.

But he ain't got time in the middle of a game when millions of dollars are at stake because it's a business and also a championship is at stake. We ain't got time for you to be like, how do you feel? How do you do all these things? How can I help you? Bro, you don't got time for all that. Probably don't got the mental bandwidth to go through and just say, hey, my guy, he barely got the mental

man what to deal with Luca. How are you going to figure it out with you? You know? I do know. I mean, I got to say you feel me because I know you feel me on this, right? You've hit the nail on the head, man. There's only so much that a coach can handle. That's where there's a coaching staff. There's a staff in place. And I do think there's some responsibility

for a player, not Luca per se, but a really good player, to be watching things happen around them and understand the landscape that is that you make the most money. Do you know why you make the most money? Because you're the best. Because you're the best. So with the most money and being the best comes a treatment that might not be the same as the 15th man on the roster.

And that shouldn't offend you because that is life. Now, I wasn't there. I don't know what Rick Carlisle was doing or if it crossed lines that even as the 15th man on the roster, you'd be like, yo, my man, that's a grown-ass man. You can't do that. Maybe he did. But I think at some point, like, you got to look at that and understand. Like, things aren't always equal. Gene Durkak, shout out to my dog, Gene. All right? Things aren't always equal, but they're fair. Right? Like, I'm not going to treat you equally, but I'm going to treat you fairly according to how you fit into this equation. Here's a thing that I think, man, and this isn't just a my generation

thing. It's not just a your generation thing. This is just a human thing, bro. Like, I feel like, especially at this level, everybody thinks that they're, especially in, you know, it makes sense. But it's professional sports in general and also when you get to a certain level, people just think that they're like hot shit and they don't look in the mirror at a certain point, right? Like, yo, you're not lucidantious. But do you really like, at your skill said, do you know if you really want to be lucidantius

right now? Do you know everything that goes into being lucidantius? Like, not everybody can be Alan Iverson. Not everybody can be LeBron James. Not everybody can hold that mentally, bro. Like, that everybody could be Whitney Houston or Marvin Gay or like all these people. Like, sometimes it's just tight to just make, sometimes it's tight to be a bit of warmer, right? Like in the NBA, sometimes it just be tight.

You feel what I'm saying? Like, not everybody can be just, like I'm saying, no, it goes back to your point of knowing your role, right? Yes. I just, I don't know. I ain't warming. I ain't trying to warm. no bench. You feel what I'm saying. No, I'm just letting you know. Like, I'm clarifying that.

You're not a bitch warmer, though. Well, I mean, there times I was, but never was I trying to warm no bench. Hey, hey, right. But I feel you though. No, that's not. Let me, hold up. You, you're not a bitch drummer and you weren't a bitch warmer of the mind, Rosser. You were never that of the mind. There was a time when I was begging to be a bench warmer. That's when I was trying to get in, baby. And I do whatever you need me to do. You need to. I told my dad straight up when I got to Philly. I said, that if they need me to get these fools water, I will have that shit to them as fast and as efficiently as they need it if they'll just keep me, bro. I'm good. Yes. No, but to your point

of like the evolution of roles, and we're getting into a bag right now, our eyes, and we're getting into it. Our eyes are all open right now, all of them, all 18 of them right now. But when you get to that point, like, you'll do anything to get into the league, including be a bench warmer. and like I get this too from a writing standpoint. Like I remember man trying to get it to this business and I really wanted it. You really, really want it. You really want it. And then you forget about like, oh man, you forget sometimes like when you get to a certain place and that, you know, it's, I don't ever want to be a bidsformer again.

But there's some qualities of when I was a bidsformer. That's probably keep with me, right? That hunger, you know, that all that stuff. And sometimes I just wish like, not even just professional. athletes, just people in general just didn't lose that hunger, just didn't lose that part of the game, right? Yeah. And I think what you're saying, like, to tie it back to like the, the, Rick Carlis situation, I think you see cats like Rick Carlisle, cats like Larry Brown, cats like Jerry Sloan, you know, that's who they were as players. They came up with a chip. They played

with a chip. They played with the level of demanding of others around them. And so, So, you know, that's what makes them so successful. They keep that with them. You know what I mean? It's a part of them. And then when that generation changes, you know, that can become a lot sometimes for the next generation. I love this game. I love sports because it's really just a mirror to life, bro.

It really is. Just set on a super, just like very huge level. Like it just on like a very polarizing level. But it is, though. It is. Let's take a quick break. we're going to talk about we're going to talk about the Lakers.

I'm not even going to do it to a tease. We can talk about the Lakers. Rrah. So in the pre-pod meeting, when we put it in the chat, we were talking about Austin Reeves at his game winner and also Mirion's piece,

Mirren Fader's piece, very in-depth piece on the ringer that you guys should all read. Austin Reeves had a game winner in Dallas. And got fouled. And he got filed. Lakers won.

Mike Shredale, friend of the show on the call, on the radio call. Sure. Good job. Good job, Mike. But it came up to a big, a larger discussion of the Lakers.

We're seeing some things with the Lakers right now, where we see them like figuring some shit down. No, bro, don't do that, bro. Don't do that. No. Don't do that. No.

Don't do that. It was a lucalist team that you were in overtime with, man. Sorry, I'm just an optimist, bro. I'm an optimist, bro. No, and you could be right, and I can be right in that last night.

Like, I mean, come on, man. Like you got your playing with you. I'm going to be roto. I'm going to be rodeo. They were doing some stupid shit down the stretch too. They just happened to win at the last minute. They, there was some stuff.

Like, there was some bad shots. Oh, like AD deciding he was going to go double someone in the paint when they needed and had to have a three. And he wanders off of like, Ron was beside himself when that happened. Did you see Brown's reaction on that play? Because I know you saw it as a basketball player.

He was baffled. He was like, are you? Like, Are you serious? What are you doing? So, okay, okay. I want to see to the basketball player on this one.

What did you see from the Lakers down the stretch? Let's just talk off of that. What did you see from the Lakers down to stretch of that? Because they ultimately won. What did you see bad and good, ugly, all in between? What did you see? I mean, I don't know. I thought it was okay.

I can agree with you in saying that I think they're taking steps forward. I don't think they're regressing. I think they're taking steps forward. I just, I think it's happening slowly. And I think that if you want to consider yourself a championship level team or a favorite to be in that conversation down the stretch, I mean, we can't be struggling with the Lucullus Mavs. And I think that's fair. Yeah.

Right? Like, I think that's fair. So, you know, I liked Westbrook down the stretch at times. I liked, you know, a couple of those last place, not settling for the three in the corner after he had knocked down a big one in regulation and driving that thing and kicking it out. so that we could get that last look at the three, not standing in the corner on another one, backdoor cutting, getting the layup on it.

I love that. That was a nice play. I love that, yes. There were some things defensively that I like. They had some solid defense possessions. But, you know, they have to continue to work it out. They have to continue to figure out what the rhythm of that offense needs to look like,

the percentage of time and ball usage that's going to be, you know, optimum level for them. for LeBron, AD, and Russ, and AD has to play better. Okay, so the AD conversation. You brought that up. It's interesting because when you look at his stats,

I mean, they're right on par. He was balling. The last I checked, it was 24 and 10. I don't know, I don't have the most immediate stats in front of me, but like, you look at 24 and 10, 24 and 10 is 24 and 10. But also we've had this discussion before, and I remember I referenced Devin Booker,

and I'm going to apologize. I'm going to apologize. I'm going to apologize. Because remember when I said, stats don't tell the whole story, which is true, but stats don't tell the whole story and all stats aren't created equal.

For Devin Booker, it was, Devin Booker's stats speak for themselves, and he's a G. But we've been seeing this with AD, right? Where you look at the stats, but then you look at the eye test and it's just not adding up.

And it's something that I've been seen for a minute. What have you been seen from AD from, from your just complete eye test? I don't want you to look at the stats. I don't want you to look at anything. I don't want you to look at any advanced metrics, anything. I want to, I want you, what is your eye telling you, Raja, when you see AD playing? Maybe a little unsure.

Hmm. You know, maybe that's the best way to put it. Because I believe certain body type skill sets are, are, like, predestined to average certain amount of points and rebounds, man. Like, you're going to get, I mean, you're Anthony Davis, man. You're going to wind up with, I mean, I could probably pencil you in for 19. and nine just rolling out of bed. You know what I mean?

Like so, oops, I was 19 to 9. I apply that. Sorry, I didn't play great. But, but I think,

you know, maybe as I haven't given this much thought, like this wasn't a pre-pod conversation, but, you know, when we talk about a team struggling to find its chemistry and I typically get LeBron-centric

about it or Russ-centric about it, maybe the one that's really struggling the most to really find his, his, his grasp on what they're doing is AD. Like he may be the guy who's just kind of uncertain. And not that he's not playing well, but I'll say it again,

he needs to play better, right? Twofold because that mantle has to be passed. That's what this was about. This wasn't about like pairing him with LeBron for the next decade. This was about pairing him with LeBron. Passing the baton for the next five years and then passing that baton. So he becomes Batman and LeBron becomes Robin or whatever that looks like.

So we got to take that next step. But when you ask me exactly what I see, maybe it's just uncertainty about where that shot's going to come from and how many touches I'm going to get on the ball. And we are creatures of habit, NBA players. I'd like to know when I'm checking in a game, what that first shot's going to look like. It might put me in a routine to know Mike DeAnonio, that is,

like this is a shot, you're usually going to get to start the game. Boom, you start to, you know, you know when your shots can come. You know about how many you're going to get, you know about how many minutes you're going to play. And so when you ask me, it was a long answer to a short question. He probably looks a little unsure. It's funny you say that because you brought up LeBron and we've talked about this partnership at length since we started this show.

I can't help but wonder how AD will be with LeBron off the team. More specifically, how AD will be when he doesn't have a big homie on a team. Because no matter what you, no matter what you think about, about LeBron's game or if you think Anthony Davis is currently a better player than LeBron James. The motherfucker is still LeBron James. I'm sorry. Like, you go to the arena and LeBron shuts shit down when he comes into the arena, not AD. Not when A.D., when LeBron comes to town, everybody is on.

You know what it is, Roger. I can't help but wonder the psychological effect of being that, being that sidekick. I mean, even if you're better than him. because I think AD, if he was in the right mindset, and I think LeBron would want AD to be better than him, just for the simple fact that he, or maybe he doesn't. I don't know. I don't have that, but he at least at the very least wants to pass the baton to AD, right?

But LeBron is so good and such a legend and one of the greatest of all time, and he's already stamped and you're putting him alongside a guy like AD, who has all world talent, but sometimes gets lost in games. And I can't help but wonder when the next time AD has to carry a team where he has another, because AD is so good,

he'll attract stars. Let's be real, he'll attract stars. Like say if, don't aggregate it. Don't do this guys. We don't need all of this. But if there's a world, Raja, keep your eye open.

a world where like a Jason Tatum comes to the Los Angeles Lakers right? Or another younger star. Just put any star. Jason Tatum. Jalen Brown. Fuck it. Luke Godansich. You know, somebody else.

Like another guy that's young, Trey Young, anybody that comes to the Lakers or somebody, right? How Anthony Davis will be as the big home? Because it's different, right? I think you're good in those regards for most of those. because all of the dudes you mentioned,

they don't like taking a backseat. They don't. And so you can keep him kind of in the role he's in, which is super talented, like, you know, maybe the best player on your team, but these other cats are the ones

that are going to go out there and be, you know. Well, I meant, but the other way, I meant the other way, Ra. I mean,

I don't think that's what he wants to do. I don't think that's what he wants to do. You know, You know what I'm saying? I think that we've bestowed that because he has all that talent that he should be a number one. Yeah. And he should be. Like he everything about what he can do physically and everything is number one.

There's no question in my mind. But I've always said this. And I just, I think that mentality wise, he's more of a one B, not even a two. I think he's a one B. I think he needs a dude with him who who is, I don't know, what's the best way to put that, man? I don't want to say alpha because it's not that. Like I don't, you know what I mean? But who is his equal at least where he don't have to take all responsibility for what's

going on around there. You know what I mean? Somebody who's a little bit more of an extrovert on the court, if that makes sense, you know? Yeah. And it's interesting, right? Because he's a big man. Like, let's not, let's be real.

But what is he, what is he in his mind? What did he grow up being, a point guard? He grew up being somebody that totally. different than what he is right now because he had his body transformation just was was was just in a different place what does a point guard do what are we taught as point guards to defer right he has a guard in him and so it's just interesting to see him like I don't know how I could I don't know how I don't think I could ever make that adjustment you know what I mean like you one summer you're a point guard out here doing all this stuff and then next thing you know you

out here is supposed to be Kareem you know what I'm saying? saying like you get what I'm saying it's a good point it's a good point it's just it's just different now I don't know how this is going to work but I do see some things with the Lakers that I can't see is positive right because man they fucking frustrate the hell out of me they surely do you know this Rajesh you know what they frustrate me Sasha Mac joey all of us everybody but I just see things like like against the spurs they just they came together and and they made big plays in San Antonio. This game, Wayne Ellington makes a huge shot.

Westbrook makes a huge shot. All of that taking that pressure off of LeBron and AD, even the play that you reference with, they're finding little things that play what you reference with Rustbrook cutting. That was all improvised. You see LeBron saying, yo, you get to, yo, AD, you get open at the top of the key.

And then AD just sees, he sees Russ cutting behind him. Great play. I see things like that that could, I don't know. I think it could pay dividends down to stretch. Now, does that mean winning a championship? No, but incremental improvements are happening. And they're only sixth in the Western Conference, right?

They're a runaway. So we'll see what happens. Before we get out of here, though, you said you wanted to say something about friend of the show who's not been on the show, Steve Nash. How do you feel about what Steve Nash is doing with the Brooklyn Nets right now? First of all, I don't know if I'd call him a friend of the show. He's a friend of mine, but haven't had him on the show yet.

So I don't know if he qualifies for a friend of the show. I don't know. You're only friend of the show. Also, fake friend of the show, Leandro Barbosa has said he wants to come on. So, you know, we're just putting that out here on wax because that's what we're just going to do now. So we just going to do now. Until he brings his ass on the show, he's a friend of mine and yours. He ain't no friend of the show.

Off top. That being Leandro Barbosa. Steve. That being, Steve is your friend? He's my friend. We hope to have him on. the show one day and thus be able to term him friend of the show. I just want to give a shout out, right? Like, I just, I do because I often do this when I coach teams. Like, I'm the hardest

on like my sons when I coach them because I don't want anyone to ever be able to say that I don't, like, treat the people close to me as hard as I would treat anybody else. So I take that approach with Steve in Brooklyn because I've been critical of them like in years past. You know what I mean? Like I treat them difficult. I think we've all been really critical of, of, of Brooklyn over the last year. But there's been some fairness in that. Like they're, you know, shit. You got to call a spade a spade when you see it.

But the reality is I got to give my man his props right now, all right? Because in the Eastern Conference right now, they are the number one seed. What's that record? It's something in eight. What is it right now? Look that up. I should have written it down. I wrote everything else down.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. The point is. You came onto this show and you said this and you were not prepared. So unprepared. No, I am. I'm prepared with a lot of other shit,

but their general record, I don't have. Anyway, listen, listen, cut that shit out, Sasha. There are 20 something. I don't know. There's something in age. He wasn't ready to go. There's something in eight. But here's why I think it's dope, right?

Like, first of all, you've had a lot of different distractions to have to deal with as a franchise. Like, you've had a lot of distractions that could have crept in there and made it really, really difficult to focus. and get on the same page. You had a team that was largely based on three phenomenal offensive talents, right? On three of them. And you subtract one from the equation totally.

And the second one isn't playing up to his normal standards, leaving you with Kevin Durant playing at MVP level. But let's just think about what's left around the fringes of that offensively. Like Lamarcus Aldris, great story, having a great year. Patty Mills, you know, who I really like. you haven't even had like Joe Harris for extended stretches this year. Like you've been a hodgepodge of a lineup. You're plugging and you're playing like you're trying to figure this out.

And you were a very, very average to below average defensive team last year. You were 19th in the league in terms of defensive efficiency. 1.098 points per possession in 2020, 2021. 19th in the league. There's six in the league right now, Logan. 1.037 points per possession. And what that says to me is you went back to your drawing board. And you self-evaluated this offseason and said,

huh, we're going to be good offensively. They got these three juggernauts of offensive weapons. We're going to be fine. Right. Never mind you, mine is Kyrie, and we figure out how to get it done. But, man, we really struggling where we got to make Hayes on the defensive end of the floor. And if we can do that, and if me as a head coach and I can get my staff to really make this, like, the focus of what we're doing, we'll have a shot.

And they did that. And so I think he's learning. Nah, straight up. I think he's learning. I think his attitude is one that lends itself to being able to navigate this and keep people bought in, keep it light,

keep it family oriented, and they're fucking winning. So shout out to Steve and the Brooklyn fucking Nets. Mike drop. Mike drop. Also, man, this is going to something else, man.

This is going to something else that you failed to realize that I think that you are, you know, Kevin fucking Durant. I just said that. It's out here. No, no, no.

You said that or whatever, but sure it's Steve Dats, but it's Kevin Durant, dude. Fucking bringing them, it's also Steve, Steve Nash. I said Kevin Durant MVP level. Go, do your thing.

Do your thing. Go. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. Say it. I'm just saying. It's saying, say it.

I'm just saying, bro. Kevin Durant right now is in a different bag right now. Yeah. Okay. He's in a different special bag that he's playing off of it. We forget. We forget that this man had a torn a Kelly's and he's one of the league leaders

and minutes played right now. He had a tour in Achilles. You know how I know he had a tour of Achilles? I was there when he fucking tore the shit and his fucking leg just rippled into a million pieces. It was, it was sick. This man is an MVP candidate right now.

And I don't know who's going to win the MVP and it's hard for me to say Kevin is at the leader right now though because yeah, Steph, Steff was trying to chase that record and Kevin is Kevin is kind of in pole position right now

I'm just saying I'm just saying I don't know I'm just saying he is I can't I'm not arguing that you know this is going to be a special MVP race I think I don't know like it's it's so close right now it's a two man race it's Steph and Kevin right now it's what it is let's just be honest

I can't who do you have right now at this very moment do you have Kevin right along I just have Kevin the slight edge just because Steph was chasing that record Steph will probably go on another run but I think I'm taking it I think I'm taking stuff right now. I mean, I think I'm taking Katie right now. Sorry, I think I'm taking Katie right now. Okay. The fact that you even did that was said, said everything we needed to hear.

The fact that she just fumbled that, just said everything. By the way, Sasha Mac creeped in the chat and said, no one decides what gets cut and what doesn't get cut. That's for her to decide. Oh, shit. My bad. We really know. We really know. I mean, we just would like, we already know this, Roger, but I don't know if the listening public knows. Sasha Mac runs this whole shit. She just, he's the queen of this whole shit. She runs this whole shit. So, um, 20 and 8,

by the way. 20 and 8 by the way. 20 and 8. We'll see what gets cut and what doesn't get cut around this motherfucker according to Sasha Mac. So, um, damn. All right.

All right. I got a question for you, Roger Bell. Yes, sir. You got that yak? I got that yak. Oh, you got that yak?

You got that yak? You got that yak? Of course, you got that yak on deck? You got that brown on dick? You got that hem on deck? Come on, man. All right, that's good, because the real one of the week is presented by Hennessy.

Hennessey is collaborating with the NBA to give a real look into the lives of different personalities, including friend of the show, Russell Westbrook, literally bawling artist Victor Solomon and Hoop York City founder, Alex Taylor. We're ready to rock. Flex bombs! Flex bombs! All right. I have a co-reel one of the week this week, Roger Bell.

this one first. It's going to the music scene. Oh. Had the pleasure of going to the first, one of the first huge headlining Bay Area shows from one, Larry June of San Francisco. I got to send you with stuff, Roger. He's popping in these streets. He had his first show. He invited me out to go see him perform. And it was unbelievable.

Also, front of the show, Wantiscono Anderson was there, chopped it up with him for a bit before the road trip. was great. Saw some of the homies. Everybody was there. It was sold

out. It was popping. I got to send you some of the videos from this thing. It was popping. And just to see somebody from the Bay

really out here showing it, showing what they could do with selling out, being from the city and selling out the Masonic was a treat

to watch and to be a part of. So that was fun. And my second ruin of the week, I'd be remissed if I didn't include this person.

One, Steph Curry. Rewan of the fucking week. For passing. Ray Allen. Yeah, I don't know. All time. All time.

All time. Three point lists passing that. And honestly, to be able, you've seen, been around a lot of great players, Roger firsthand. And it's different when you see somebody with greatness. You've been around guys like LeBron and Alan Iverson. When you see that greatness firsthand, it's different. And, you know, to be able to watch Steph, even a piece of that,

to see him break that record. in the building for that. But to have a piece of seeing that first hand, it was pretty good. So rowing a week, Larry Gillier, rowing a week, Steph Curry. Who is your real one of the week, Roger? I too have co-reelones of the week, but they are very closely related. They would be Travis Hunter, the number one recruit in high school football coming out of Sawin, Georgia, destined to go to Florida State, committed to Florida State since I don't

Owen and one prime Dion Sanders. He was the coach head coach at Jackson State University. It was an unprecedented flip on National Signing Day, which was yesterday. Getting this young man, the number one recruit in the country to flip out of his commitment from Florida State to go play football in Jackson State University. It was crazy.

It was lightweight disrespectful to a lot of schools, but I did enjoy it. Yes. Yes. That is some real one shit for a lot of reasons. And so those are my co-real ones of the week. Not only, I mean, not only, but he got the bag, too. Like, he secured the million dollar plus bag in the

process with the NIL deal. Like, we can have a conversation on what that does to college athletics and stuff. Like, I feel kind of strongly. Like, I, but we'll save that, all right? I digress. Let's just say those are real ones at their week. I think they deserve it. I just love to say, want to say that I loved

his commitment video. I saw that this morning beforehand. It was so gangster. He just threw the fucking hats. He was Jordan. So disrespectful. Nah. Not. So disrespectful.

Put the Jackson State all, baby. Yo, man. What Hime is doing for HBCUs, it's pretty special, man. Because back in the day, like, you know, you talk about guys like George Atkinson,

right? You talk about guys back in the day. I think Jack Tatum, all these black players used to come out of HBCUs because they couldn't go to what they, thought was D1 level, the Alabama's, the all these places, because you know why? They wouldn't take

them. They wouldn't take these black players. And now the fact that they're getting at these recruits and they're going to these historically black colleges, it's a big deal. It's a big deal. It's really good. And they're getting this type of things. That's pretty tight. My dad played in HBCU. We played football in Morehouse. So like, you know, I know all about it. And what the challenge in a lot of instances was financially, like, you know, did you? you have the resources and were you able to compete with the recruiting budgets and the bells and the whistles of some of these bigger schools? And so, like, you know, to some degree, the playing field is getting evened with NIL and the opportunities that exist there. But I do think it's an awesome, I think it's an awesome thing.

I think it's an awesome, it's an awesome responsibility that that young man undertook, right? Like, because that's way, that was way outside of the realm of what people thought was going to happen yesterday. Hey, Ma'an, it's tight to go to HBCUs, bro. What's to a Howard homecoming once? it was five. It was nice. It was dope. You know, go to go down to Atlanta, go to them Clark parties and stuff. You know what I'm saying? You know, I feel you, but I'm going to tell. Listen, my story, straight up. I'm not even going to front. Like, dad played at Morehouse. My mom went to Spelman. Like, so that was in the blood. And then Morehouse wanted me to come on a visit and I wanted to go on a

visit and they had no budget to get me there or set me up. I'm like, no, I'm out. I'm good. That's all fair. That's all fair. I'm glad that the tight is changing right now. It seems like it's to change. On that note, the ruin of the week was presented by Hennessy. In partnership with the NBA, Hennessy's new film depicts the journey of basketball to reveal the places the game can take us. Make moves that start movements. Hennessy, the spirit of the NBA. Discover more at heny.com. Please drink responsibly. Imported coniac, Hennessy is 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof, copyright 2021. Imported by Moette. Hennessy USA Inc., New York, New York. Hennessy is a registered trademark.

It's been another edition of real ones. Thursday edition, baby. Make sure you check us out every Mondays and Thursdays. We'll be back Monday. Let me give you guys the schedule real quick. We will be back on Monday the 20th, during normal schedule. We will be taking a holiday hiatus. We will be back on after the 20th show.

We will be back on December 30th. But in the meantime, make sure you check out mismatch. Make sure you check out group chat. sure you check out. The answer. Make sure you check out Black Girl Songbook with who, Roger Bell. Tom Legend, Daniel Smith. Keep the propaganda going. Make sure you check out R2C2 with who, Rosabelle. The Crescent clown. Belayo legend. C.C. Sabat. Also, make sure you check out this Juice World Doc. It just came out today on HBO Max. I have not seen the final cut yet that is on HBO Max, but I did. What had the honor of seen one of the

cuts about a few months ago, it was really good. One of the best documents. It was really good. One of the best documentaries I've ever seen. It's part of the music box series on HBO and HBO Max. Make sure you go check that out, man. Rajah, it's about Juice World. Make sure you go check that out if you, with the fan. The little hummies back there, I think we'll appreciate that. But I will see you guys Monday. Hala. Bye.