The Ringer NBA Show - What We Learned From the Mavs-Timberwolves Series and Kyrie’s Redemption Arc | Real Ones

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Logan and Howard discuss the Mavs closing out the Western Conference finals against the Minnesota Timberwolves, what they learned about both teams in Game 5, and the lasting ramifications of this series for the West (1:04). Next, they talk about the Mavs adding a few key pieces at the trade deadline, how making the right moves can alter the championship trajectory of a team in the modern NBA, and Kyrie’s on-court redemption arc (30:31). Later, they debate where Luka and Kyrie fall in the argument for the best NBA backcourts of all time (50:06). Finally, the guys close with their Real Ones of the Week (58:52). Email us questions for Mailbag Monday! [e-mail] The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Logan Murdock and Howard Beck Producer: Jonathan Kermah Production Assistant: Kai Grady Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Justin Verrier here from group chat on The Ringer MBA show. And we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L. Ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. It's popping. Real ones. Logan Murdoch here.

Howard motherfucking Beck there. Roger Bell on the recruiting trail. So it's going to be me a high. Howard today. We're talking on the morning after Mavericks Timberwolves game five, Mavericks win, 124, 103. They're going to the NBA finals to play the Boston Celtics. We will get to a full preview, a proper preview on Monday, but I want to break down this game and the ramifications of this game for both teams and this iteration of the podcast. Howard, this wasn't a very interesting game because you go into game four,

Timberwolves win game four, which is a surprise, but it's also one of those curious losses that end up happening with the Mavericks where you're like, okay, they lost the game, but it doesn't really sway my opinion either way about how the series is going to go at this juncture. You know, the Mavericks were up 3.30 at the time. And even the prediction from Anthony Edwards that they were going to be back did little to sully my confidence that the Maver's

were going to take the series. And then Luca Donchis just goes off. He scores 20-something points in the first quarter. He's talking shit to Snoop. He's, it was just diabolical in those ways. He was shooting logo threes like it was nothing, right? He was, he met the moment in a way that while it's expected of Donchitz, it was still a sight to behold.

and it wasn't even a game to by the end of the first quarter. It was basically we're going to watch the Mavericks get cardio for four quarters and we'll get this thing on wrapped up and get our week off until the series starts next week in Boston. But I guess we'll start off with this question, Howard. What did that game tell you about both teams? It's funny because it was a short series, right? there's only so much I think you're going to learn in the course of that.

And I think it's more about what we've learned in the course of this postseason about these two teams because neither of them were projected to be here. I'd ever go back and look at these things. Was there anybody on Earth, Logan, who had either of these teams in the conference finals, much less both of them? Okay, so I don't know if I'll pay this take. I know there's going to be a lot of real ones out here that say, Logan, you're full of shit.

But I believe I said this. at least I was saying in my group chats that the Mavericks had an outside chance to go to the Western Conference Finals just from the moment that the standings were in place, right? Because they had escaped Denver, which would I think would have been a matchup nightmare for them,

but they were on the right side of the bracket. I thought they had a chance to go to the Western finals and probably lose to Denver and the Western Finals because they would finally get them because I had written in Denver as as to getting all the way. So I thought that they had a chance to go to the conference finals,

did I think that they were going to be this dominant and just have this and have the run that they did, not necessarily no. Okay, but that was a mid-April take. I'm talking about last October. Like when this season started. Absolutely not. I thought you're okay.

Yeah. No, and look, I mean, all of these, this is the thing. This is why it's so dumb that we make predictions in the first place, right? Because teams change over the course of a season. Don't you worry, Howard. We got predictions coming on Monday. Don't you worry about it, pal.

Fuck predictions. But, you know, in October, you do your best to guess, okay, based on the off season, here's where you think these teams are. And then a couple months in some things, you know, a player pops, somebody else gets injured, whatever, and things change. And then trade deadline comes and goes. And in the Mavericks case, especially, they made some really smart upgrades that, by the way, we're not universally praised at the time.

A lot of people, in fact, I think there were more people who were down on their moves. I actually liked their moves. But a lot of people were down on their moves at the time. That's kind of lateral moves. Ah, Daniel Gaffer, does he move the needle? as PJ Washington really upgrade over great ones, all this stuff. So at any given point, though, between October and especially when they made that final kick the last month or so, when their defense really locked in, I don't think anybody outside of Mavericks and maybe Timberwolves' fandom would have projected their teams in the conference finals when the season began in April. It was different, obviously.

So what do we learn, you asked. Here's what I think we, like, we can go deeper on both of these. But I think in a nutshell, on the Maverick side of it, I think what we've learned over the course of the season and not just in this series is that Kyrie is a much better fit and in a much better place in his career arc and his life than I think any of us certainly than I would have surmised at the time that they acquired him. I really thought they were taking a big risk by getting Kyrie. And the way things went after they got him last year, I thought kind of just supported that position. like, is this really going to work? And part of it was about Kyrie's just own track record, but part of it was just about, hey, these two guys were both really ball dominant going to fit together to both of their credit,

especially Kyrie, though. I think, you know, Kyrie is the one who made the bigger sacrifice here. But to Lucas' credit, too, he's trusted Kyrie and embraced him and empowered him in a way that I don't think he ever did with any other teammates. Now, maybe those teammates weren't worthy of it in his view. And maybe they weren't at the time. Jalen Brunson notwithstanding, and like it was a different Jalen Brunson,

but he was on this trajectory. But Luca has to empower the second star to be a second star. And Kyrie had to be willing to play in a way that he, I think chafed at when he was in Cleveland with LeBron. It's why he forced his way out of Cleveland. So credited to both of those guys. So what we've learned is that. We've also learned that both of those guys,

when they want to, can really lock in defensively. and Kyrie had shown that earlier in his career. It comes and goes. Luca had not really shown it consistently until the last several months. And yeah, I think we learned that a team based on two incredible all-time talents offensively with the ball on their hands. Both guys are just wizards with the ball in their hands. When you surround them with shooters and defenders can reach some pretty great heights. All of that said, it's been a weird year in the West.

you know, the wolves knock out. It's a bit of a transitional year in the West, I think. Yeah. I mean, the wolves knock out the defending champs in a game seven in which the wolves trailed by 20. And then they turn around and lose in five just completely stumbled through this series. Credit to the Mavericks for putting the Timberwolves in uncomfortable positions. But I don't think any of us thought the Timberwolves were going to go this quietly if they were going to go. Like I thought, I thought this was going to be a seven game series. You forced me to make a prediction because you're a bad friend.

and I'm an asshole I'm a fucking asshole I said wolves in seven I could have easily said Babs and set but I thought it was gonna go six or seven I just did not think either of these teams could smoke the other

I thought they were pretty evenly matched so what we learned about the wolves then is they're just not ready they weren't ready for prime time Anthony Edwards at least this will put to bed all of the stupid MJ stuff for a while

he wasn't ready and that's fine he doesn't have to be ready he's really young and this team is fairly young overall, Mike Conley notwithstanding. So the wolves will be fine, give them time. If they've got some financial issues,

we can get into payroll issues, tax issues, apron issues, all that stuff, that may come to bear this off season. But if the Timberwolves just run it back next season, I think they could be right back in this position a year from now. We'll get to that in a second. I have my doubts about the Timberwolves, just about their...

I have my doubts in the sense that this Western Conference series really exposed a lot of fatal flaws of the Timberwolves. And I think if they don't make moves, particularly if they don't make the decision, they need to make the decision on Carl Towns. Now, Carl Towns really hedged his bet in his post-game press conference, just talking about, like, how he's going to be the bag and how he loves this organization. and this is for him. He basically tried to use the will of the people that have seen him all throughout Minneapolis over the last seven, eight years to use all that goodwill to say, hey, remember me? I should be back, right?

And I don't believe that he played good enough or made enough of the impression to justify being back on that salary, especially all the times that he has been on the bench in crutch time situations or the bad fouls here or there. He didn't play like a number two, a bona fide number two throughout this series in some cases beyond, right? Like you saw what a true number two is on the other side of the court with Kyrie and what you need from that. And you didn't really see that from Carl Towns. And I think that a combination of that, you've got to figure out what you're going to do.

with Rudy Gobert because Rudy Gobert, another guy that kind of just showed who he was defensively, and it doesn't matter how good he is in the regular season defensively. And he even spurts during this postseason, I just don't think that he is the answer. I think you need to build around

Ant and a, I think they've been, I think the Minnesota terminals have been straddling the fence between actually fully just saying, we're going to build with Ant while keeping the old guard pre-ant there and the name of Carl Anthony Towns, I think that they need to figure out their roster strictly to play to the

strengths of Anthony Edwards at this point. Yes. Clearly, Anthony Edwards is their moon and their son. Like, you're going to revolve around him, right? He's, wherever they go in the future, it's going to be more about Anthony Edwards and his ability to lead them there because he's got all the potential in the world. He is just scratching the surface. And he's a guy with the ball in his hands critically. So I'm not going to go to Great Lange's logo to try to defend Carl Anthony Towns, but I do have a bit of a rebuttal to just the overall idea that this team has constructed can't do it. Let's start with this. This series through the first four games was really freaking close, right? I actually did the game by game. So they lose, the Semwolves lose game

one by three points. They lose game two by one point. They lost game three by nine. They lost game three by nine. but it was a two-point game with 321 to go, and the Mavs just rip off a 9-0 run. So three straight games, the wolves are right there. It could have won, and they didn't. Like, there's no what it could have shoulda,

right? Like, I've mocked some of my friends who are Laker fans for telling me about it. It was the greatest 40 sweep in conference finals history year ago when they lost of the nuggets. Yeah, Kai. Yeah, Kerm.

Yeah, Kerm. This was not about Kai or Kerm. Leave them out of this. I have other friends who are Laker fans who I needed to talk down when they were trying to go too far with this. over the last year. I don't care that it's the closest conference finals loss in history for them or for the wolves as close as it was. But I am saying,

and look, the Lakers were already peaking, I think, because of how old their biggest star is and even how old both their stars are. The wolves are on the upswing. In a different version of this wolf's team in a different year, where Anthony Edwards has now got this experience under his belt and has more time to develop and hone his skills and his reads and his reactions and his playmaking, those could go the other way. So for all of Carl Anthony Towns's flaws in this series, and they were glaring, for whatever people want to say about Rudy Gobert, by the way, they were better. Again, our guys, Zach Cram, like, did the math. It's on the website. It's on the ringer.com. You all can see it for yourselves.

They were better with Rudy Gober on the court than off, not just in the regular season, but in the playoffs. I'm not on this train of throw Rudy Gobert overboard. They're not here. without him. They don't get this far without him. Their defense is not the number one defense in the NBA for this regular season without Rudy Gobert. This series looks a lot different, Logan, if a couple different things happen. If they had anybody who could actually put a body on Luca a little bit, right?

Like, Jaden McDaniels is like, you know, all defensive team, incredible defender. He's a skinny as me. He's a certain kind of defender and certain build. Yeah, he's a skinny as you and me. Right. So if you'd had like, I mean, we could just play stupid hypotheticals, but if OG Ananobe is there to guard Luca instead, and no one's stopping Luca, let's be clear. Like, no one's stopping Luca.

No one's stopping Kyrie. But in this league, you don't stop the superstars. You don't stop great offensive players, but you do try to make them less efficient. You try to wear them down. And you do need to try to match their, in some cases, physicality. And the wolves couldn't do that. They had nobody to match Luca there. So as much as we could say, oh, well, Rudy in these situations, you know, the switch and that he got burned by Luca, whatever.

It's like, like, Luca shouldn't be his assignment or his responsibility. As much as we want to say, like, oh, Towns came up short. He did. Towns is not Kyrie. Towns doesn't have the ball in his head. He's not a six-two guard who, you know, creates off the dribble and can manufacture scoring. He's a big who needs somebody else to feed him for the most part. So I don't even, whatever we may say about the wolves in their deficiencies.

they're all there. Logan, you're right on all of it. But there's a, there's a version of this where if you have like a slightly younger version of Mike Conley, so you've got another ball handler and score creator type next to Anthony Edwards. If Anthony Edwards is just gets that next iteration in his development, if the, my other hypothetical of if you had a physical defender, an Ananobe type or somebody instead of McDaniels to take Luca, the series was decided by some, some slim margins early on. And once they were in that hole, it was always going to be really difficult to dig out of it. So I don't think anything that happened is an indictment of their construction or about any fatal flaws. And even all that said, I do agree with you.

I have my doubts about Kat in general. And I do think we'll get to this eventually. I do think that had they won the series and gone to the finals, you're kind of married now to this payroll and these players for a while. Now you have an out. Now you have an out. You lose this series and you've got a $200 million payroll and tax issues and apron issues and you go, maybe we should trade cat. Here's the other thing though, man. And this is just where the NBA is right now.

And you see this on the other side with the Mavericks. We talked about how the trades that the Mavericks made in the midseason to get Gafford to pair with lively and how that worked out. All that to say, you have to, in this modern NBA, you have to be able to pivot. You know, it's not a fact of you could be the Utah Jazz of the 90s and just keep going and keep trying out things. Now, the Utah Jazz actually went to the finals twice as, you know, we talked about pre-pod at a very animated discussion, which was hilarious. In a very different context that we will not get into right now. That we will not get into right now. But you can't bank on that in the modern NBA.

You have to pivot. And, you know, you just with all the things that you've said about the payroll, I mean, you're paying caskine. going to get paid in a few years, $60 million. Now, that might look different with the new television deal, right? And there's a lot of reporting out there that says, you know, that teams are going to start playing their top players, $100 million a year, potentially. We'll see, you know, the NBA wants to probably likely soothe that out if they can.

But as it stands right now, keeping towns to do what he did on the biggest stage at that salary number just isn't sustainable. It's not. And I just, I don't believe that that's, that's, that's the recipe to, to, to, to, to work going forward. I think in general in this league, having three max guys in under this CBA, under this economic structure and, and, and these tax thresholds and, and the aprons and all the stuff you lose, having three max guys, they damn will better be just bulletproof. And you look on the other side of the court and there's extenuating circumstances, but the Mavericks number two is not a max guy, right? Like, you got to make sure you get a bang for your buck.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, it can't be, you know, three max salaries where one of them is Kevin Durant late in his career and one of them is Bradley Beal who can't stay healthy, right? And in the Timberwell's case. Why do the sons, the sons have because there's so many direct shots every. Because, because they're one of the only handful of teams with three max guys. I think it's them, Denver, and Minnesota. Like, I don't, it's, we are not in an era where you have three max players anymore. And so if you do, it better be the right three.

And I, listen, I'm with you, Logan. It may not be the right three. And I've always had my doubts about Kat. I think he had some great moments in this postseason. And I think he had some really bad ones. So they do have decisions to make. Whether those decisions have to come this. This summer is the question.

Maybe they run it back one more time with this group, given that you did just make the conference finals and lost to a Mavericks team that has one of the greatest offensive players we've ever seen in Luca. And in Kyrie's case, listen, all of Kyrie's warts notwithstanding, he is one of the most skilled guards we've ever seen in the NBA. The dude is just incredible. And I don't think there's anything for the,

the wolves to necessarily hang their heads about. And again, we agree, their best player is the 22-year-old. And you don't go to the finals at 22 in this league in this era, or at least not very often. Quick reference point on that, by the way, just to put this back in perspective for people, recent champions, right? So the Nuggets won it all last year with Yokic. Yokic was a rookie in 2015-16. His first three seasons did not even make the playoffs. Then he made the semis. Then the conference finals, then only the semis, then lost in the first round, then won the championship in his eighth season. So, you know, to our buddy Vinny Goodwill's point, when he got into that really funny back and forth with cat and aunt a week ago, and it was about getting, you know, normally you

have to like rise, fall, rise again, get your butt kicked, come back again. That's usually how it goes. So that was how, that was the Nuggets Path. The Warriors are a dynasty, right? Steph Curry, rookie in 2009-10. First three years, didn't make the playoffs. Made the semis. Then the next year only made the first round and lost championship in his sixth season. And again, like, Ant is not that deep in his career yet. I could do the same thing with the Bucks and Janus.

I could do the same thing with any number of teams. You can do it with... You can do it with... Yeah. Yeah. Do a lot of people. Isaiah. Yeah.

It's the normal course of things. And occasionally, yeah, sometimes a team. occasionally there's a Magic Johnson who just gets, you know, five before. Yeah, but yeah, that was 40 years ago. Yeah. It's, we are not in that era anymore.

And guys come in younger and teams have more turnover. And there's just, it's just a different time. So a lot more fluid, salary caps, a lot of different things. And by the way, so to review on, on Ant, right? Rookie in 2020, 2021, first year missed the playoffs. Second year, made the playoffs. So he was ahead of schedule based on like Curry and Yokic. He's like ahead of their schedule.

first round lost, first round loss, and then Western Conference Finals. So he makes the conference finals in his fourth season, having never even advanced out of the first round before. Wait, real quick, we're quick. If I have memory serves, LeBron made it, his third year, got to the second round,

or did he get to the conference finals his first year, his first time out? I think he got it sick. I'm going to look at a, no, LeBron went to conference finals his first year, or his first playoffs. No, no, no, no. I'm messing up. What he did was his first time in the postseason was, I believe, his third or fourth year, 0-60-0-5-06.

0-5-06. He went to the conference finals. Then the next year went to the finals, played against the spurs, got swept. And then don't remember after that. Then the Celtics knock him on his butt a couple of times. And then he leased for Miami. He lost to the Celtics in 08. in the conference finals again.

Okay. Yeah, LeBron was, it's fucking incredible. One of one. So, yeah, the Timberwolves have a lot to figure out. Any last thoughts of what they should or shouldn't do? Where are the Timberwolves going into this post, going into this off season, rather? What are the priorities?

Where do you see them going? We just talked about Carl Towns should not be back next season. Maybe I think they shouldn't be back next season. I think they need to trade of the soft season. They have the out. They have all of everybody will be on their side if they do so. It will be tough for some of the fan base, but it might be the necessary move. What do you think?

Are you with me on that? What is the most pressing need right now for the Minnesota Timberwolves in this office? So overshadowing all of this, of course, is that there's still this ownership battle between Glenn Taylor and the A-Rodd-Marie group. Alex Rodriguez, who was a staple on the front row of. I think he was making a statement. It's a staple of the front row on every single postseason game, getting in front of the cameras, all in the videos.

Alex Rodriguez is trying to make a point. The only reason I bring it up, people get bored by ownership discussions, so I don't want to dwell on it. But I'm bringing it up for this reason, Logan. Historically, Glenn Taylor has been pretty freaking cheap and has not done a great job of surrounding great players, Kevin Garnett,

with the right kind of support. And so I have my doubts if it's still him. But in the midst of all this battle between him and the Arod Lorry group, there was some stuff leaked that put those guys in a bad light saying like, oh, they were going to look to slash payroll. I don't know how true any of that is, but I think there's reason for us all on the outside to wonder, depending on who takes over or depending on whether Glenn Taylor retains control, depending on whether those guys are able to rest control, which is the better outcome for the wolves in terms of their willingness to keep spending and pay the luxury tax? all that. I don't know the answer to that, but it's looming out there, either direction that could have an impact. I will say, and Bobby Marks, as always, has done a great job of laying all this out on ESPN.com about just their finances. Their payroll is going to exceed $200 million next year. That means a $75 million luxury tax. It means they're going to hit the second apron, which means you lose all kinds of exceptions

and ability to make trades and all kinds of stuff. And so back to what we said earlier, if they'd made it out of the conference finals, maybe get to the finals, I think, well, I don't want to break up anything now. I'm keeping Kat. I'm paying the luxury tax. I'll figure it out. I'll give them one more year. I'll see if there's ways to pair payroll elsewhere, maybe. But having lost badly, and with Kat not playing well in the conference finals, yeah, I think everything goes back on the table. And by the way, if you had asked me six months ago, a year ago, my position at the time before they had this breakout season had been all along, I think they're inevitably heading toward a breakup. because they paid Nasreid a nice amount as a backup,

and that's a great luxury to have. But in today's NBA, that's a hard luxury to afford. So it's very easy. Plug Nasreid in next to Rudy Gobert and Anthony Edwards and just keep going. And it didn't help that Nasreed was playing all of what was supposed to be Cats minutes down the stretch of a lot of playoff games. Yeah. And Nas Reid still got room to grow.

And I'm not saying he's ever going to reach Kat's heights in terms of offensive abilities, but you don't necessarily need that level of offensive abilities at Kat's position. and at that cost, importantly. So if you promote Nasree to the starter and when you trade towns, you're hoping for a little bit of cap relief so you don't want to spend the same amount, but you're going to cash him out for probably multiple players at other positions. Or maybe it's one really impactful player at a different position. Maybe at point guard because Conley's getting up there.

I don't know. I don't know where it goes. Logan, I have not played with the trade machine to see what you could get. And again, as Bobby Marks points out, it's not exactly going to be an easy trade to make because Towns is making nearly 50 million next season. And we have a great sample size of what he could be in a championship level, right? Like I'd imagine that would scare a lot of teams off, a lot of championship teams off, for sure. And also, as Bobby points out, and I don't understand this particular wrinkle. I'm just going to take it on face because Bobby Marks is way smarter about this than I am.

he says that his contract next season is one of the largest in the NBA and would trigger the first apron hard cap for teams looking to acquire him. So there are other considerations for any team that might want him, despite the warts. And I remember when I was covering the Warriors, the Warriors were up against a hard cap in the year when after Durant left, because DiAngelo Russell was a max guy and got traded into their cap room. they had to maneuver it was really hard for them to maneuver

obviously it was fine because they were losing and no one really cared but like just simple things like we can't get a two-way guy or we can't get it we can't sign a guy if someone gets injured like it's really prohibitive if you're at a hard cap especially even if you're a contender like it's very prohibitive when you're up against a hard cap and it's way more prohibitive now than it was in the example you're citing from a few years back because this new cbA makes it almost impossible you lose exceptions you lose the ability to sign-in trades you lose all kinds of

of stuff. The other thing that's hit that's just kind of on my mind with the Timberwolves moving forward is Mike Conley, I love Mike Conley. Everybody loves Mike Conley. There's nobody in the league who doesn't love Mike Conley. He's 37 in October. And I think unless Anthony Edwards makes a big leap forward in terms of his, you know, kind of decision making, playmaking, orchestrating type role, you need a strong playmaker next to him. And Conley is that, but Conley's going to be 37 in October. And so is there an alternative there? You know, is it just getting a better backup point guard so that you don't spend as many minutes for Conley in the regular season? Or do you need to actually get younger there? Like, I don't know, is Tyas Jones an option? I think a Fred Van Vleet type,

maybe not actual Fred Van Vleet, but like somebody like him. Dejante Murray, who could be available? I don't know. I'm just spitballing. I have not thought these through, but I just, and this is not any knock on Conley. It's just more a matter of his age and mileage. And then the other thing I thought about too is like, okay, when another team beats you and goes to the finals, whether they win the championship or not, sometimes you go in the offseason thinking, okay, if we were to face the Mavericks same situation this time next year, what do we need to be better at? You might need a bigger, beefier defender to throw at Luca. So could they add anybody else in terms of wing defenders, somebody who could just maybe make it a little bit more of a challenge for him.

So that's the other thought I have. Last point on that, I think if you were to play the Mavericks again, another thing, if you obviously need a big body for Luca, but you also need a roster that can match, if not exceed, the will of Luca Donchison, Kyrie Irving. And that's just not the case on this roster, right? I think there was a lot of times looking at this series where, even in the last game where I felt like, oh, there's only one guy on the floor for the Timberwell.

that is matching the level of oomph that you need to go against a champion like Kyrie and also just a straight up a satchet like Lupidant. And that was Anthony Edwards, you need to have much help in that regard, right? So that's something they're going to have to do. Minnesota is going to have a mindset shift if they're going to continue this trajectory. Let's take a quick break and let's talk about the Mavericks. With Fandle, it's never too late to get in on the action this NBA playoffs. Because right now, new customers get $150 and bonus bets with any winning $5 bet.

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See terms at sportsbook.bendul.com. And we were back. Oh, man. Everybody on ruins. Just want to give you guys some transparency. Howard Beck out here flexing on us. I'm not going to say what he did during the break, but he did some big time flexing.

And I can't wait for you all to see it. All top of the fact that he is, recording this podcast high above the clouds and Spotify, New York, which she continues to throw into my face every time he comes on on Fridays. Free snacks, free coffee, baby, all day. Motherfucker.

Love these houses. Let's talk about the Dallas Mavericks. We'd be remissed if we were, but we didn't. Just talk about their, how far they have come this season. I think the big thing is the trade. And we talk about, we were talking about, we were criticizing the,

Minnesota Timberwolves for not being as flexible or if they can be flexible. What do you think the Maverick season tells you about the modern NBA and the fact that one trade can really change everything? We saw that with the Cavs, I think, at 18, right, when they traded half of their roster. This is a bit different. But in the case of a trade deadline really changing the trajectory of a championship-type team, what does this Mavericks team tell you about how you should or should not team do? There's a lot.

Logo, that's a great question because there's actually a lot of different layers there. I do this, Howard. I do this, Howard. You do it well, my friend. There's two layers to this, right? Because it's two trade deadlines. Like the first one was the big swing, right, for Kyrie, which, again, a lot of us, myself included, thought that was, you know, a pretty big risk and not so sure it was going to work out. and then even when things are off to a, you know, solid enough start.

Like, Mavericks weren't like blowing people's doors off the first couple months of the season. They were fine. They were good. But they were good in a Western conference where there was a lot of good and a lot of great. And to the point of your question was not about the 2023 deadline. It was the 2024 deadline. It was the moves that you think about as being kind of more around the edges, right? Daniel Gafford's been on like four other teams.

I'll have to look it up while we're talking. PJ Washington had only been on one team, but a really shitty team. I had never, like, no real big game experience to speak of. And was an okay player, people had differing opinions about him around the league. I'm telling you, like, I remember this distinctly in February, because I remember having a conversation with somebody with the Mavericks,

where I said, like, I really like what you guys did. They said, oh, thanks, not, it's not a popular opinion right now. Like, they were taking a lot of shots because people thought, oh, how big of an upgrade is Grant Williams to PJ Washington? You know, Daniel Gafford, oh, yeah, okay, it's sure, nice backup big, but what impact? Well, it was huge. It changed, I don't want to say, changed the trajectory of the season maybe a little strong, but it provided the combination of that plus Derek Jones Jr.'s emergence as a starter and defender for them,

they got along the way over the course of this season, and maybe starting last, last season, season, bigger, stronger, stouter defensively. And I think to an extent that's partially also what it enables or inspires Luca and Kyrie, with a lot of nudging from their coach, Jason Kidd, to start stepping up their defensive levels as well, right? Like, it's great to have Derek lively and Daniel Gafford back there. It's great to have Derek Jones Jr. It's great to have defense around you.

But if you're an offense-only back court, and you're leaving a lot for others to clean up, you're not going to become a great defensive team and you're not going to the finals. They're not this level without making those moves. And then they're not this level without Kyrie and Lukah deciding to match, or at least attempt to come up to the level of some of their more defensive-minded teammates. And then not to be lost in all of this was all the draft night maneuvers they made to get Derek lively in the first place. And part of that goes back to them deciding to opt out of the playoffs. to the play in last spring, which they took a lot of shots for.

I supported it at the time philosophically. Like I know it's anti-competitive. Yes, the league digged them and the league was right to ding them. I would have done the same thing. I didn't blame the Mavericks in the least for making, for basically deciding, you know what, we're not going anywhere. We might as well just like let go over the rope and keep our pick. I had no problem with it.

It was a calculated decision and they were going to get smoked probably in the first round of the playoffs if they made it at all anyway. So they weren't ready. They weren't ready at that time. And keeping the pick was the right thing. And then they made a bunch of other maneuvers and they got Derek lively. Just by the way, before I lose that train of thought, all in all, over the last couple of seasons, Nico Harrison and his front office, I think I've just done a really good job of part of its risk taking with Kyrie at a time when nobody else really wanted to trade for Kyrie.

And they took their leap of faith. Then they signed him to a new contract. And then they made all these other smaller moves around the edges. Like they've done a phenomenal job. well, you reference Kyrie, and we've been kind of tiptoeing around this throughout the podcast, but the really interesting,

convoluted weird redemption story that Kyrie is having right now is so interesting in so many different ways because he's played so well during this postseason that it's one of those things where he's played so well that not that you forget, it would happen a few years ago,

but you kind of have to read up and be like, oh, yeah, this is why he's in Dallas, right? All the things that happened in New York, the things that happened in Boston. You were around a lot for the New York part of it. I was 3,000 miles away. Like, for me, covering the league,

I'm on the West Coast, so I only get to see Kyrie in different spurts, but you've gotten a lot of time to see him. What if you make of this redemption story, right? where he's this guy that in Boston was going through some things. I think there were some things behind the scenes that a lot of us kind of can gather that, you know, that he was going through. And he also, like, said on a record, I talked to him a couple of about a year ago,

where he talked about the biggest thing that his hindrance in Boston was that his grandfather died. And he wanted to all of a sudden be back home closer to his family, right? That was one thing that kind of bubble to the surface. And then he goes to Brooklyn where it doesn't go the way that anyone thought it was going to go. And he ties himself to Kevin. And then he misses games due to entry, but also just weird things, right? Where he leaves the team during COVID for sister's birthday. And then he doesn't want to get vaccinated.

then he the weird stuff that happened we don't have to rehash but the weird stuff that happened with the tweets and just a lot of distractions during his time over the last three or four years that just hindered teams had nothing to do with his talent

and now he comes to Dallas and it seems he seems to have been by all accounts turned a corner on all these things he's not the guy that will leave his team for months on in. To come back all around, what do you make of this transition

that I just described, right? Like this coming of age, what he's been through. I don't even want to say what he's been through, but the coming of age over the last few years for Kyrie. What do you think of this, the redemption story that we're seeing in front of our eyes right now going to be fine?

I think it's really important at a time like this when we start talking about redemption arcs and all of this, which is all legitimate to discuss. We've got to separate the personal and the professional in this. And I'm going to take the personal and put it aside. When I say personal, I mean all the off-court stuff, right? There's a lot that you just listed about Kyrie and some of it was off-court problems,

distractions, other things, to put it mildly, while he was in Brooklyn. It's all intrinsic to his career and it's intrinsic to his value, which had plummeted by the time the Mavericks acquired him, right? Those were things that concerned a lot of teams. There were teams I had talked to months before that trade happened. who were like, I would not acquire him. I want nothing to do with him. Mia Razor were talking about,

is he going to, like, is he still going to get paid, like, in the way that his talent suggests he should? Is he going to be in the league? You know who else wondered that? Kyrie. On Media Day,

his last media day was Brooklyn. And remember, he could have opted out that summer and gone into free agency. And granted them, you know, like there was only a few teams with Cap Room. But Kyrie basically said on Media Day in 2022,

something to the effect of, of like, yeah, there was nothing out there. for me. Like he knew. He understood it. He wasn't, and to his credit, he addressed it head on. He knew his value across the league

had really bottomed out. But I want to put the personal stuff, the off-court stuff with Kyrie aside, because I don't want to put that in the framework of a redemption arc. I don't know that some of those things he can be redeemed from on that level. Let's just talk about the basketball.

Because on a bat, the redemption arc is about his basketball play. about his willingness and his ability to use all of his incredible talents and everything that he's learned over the course of his career and come to the court and come to the Mavericks with a much more, I think, mature and constructive approach than he once had. I think there were, off court stuff aside, there were questions about on court stuff in Cleveland, in Boston, in Brooklyn. And those things have not been present at all in Dallas.

And even from a basketball standpoint, I even think like his leadership. was calling the question. Like, even from personal stuff aside, like I think I've seen, and I spent a little time, as you know, like when he was in Brooklyn, right, and just how just the vibe it was there. And then I spent a little bit of time

with the Mavericks when they came through, you know, Northern California. And it's been a night and day difference in terms of just locker room vibes and how much he has looked at as a leader in between the Boston situation, the Brooklyn situation, and now the Dow's situation.

The Dallas situation, he is regarded as a legitimate leader in that locker room now. Like, there was a point, I think when Max, during the game when Max Kleber is like out of the huddle and Kyrie's like, yo, get your ass here. Like, he has that type of respect in a way that I don't think he had in previous stops. I think that that's true. And so, yeah, so the redemption arc on the court. If you think about where Kyrie is now, first of all, he's 32. he's no longer, you know, a young player in this league. He is among the vets on that team and he's also, of course, the one who has the championship

ring. And it's important to remind ourselves and I do this all the time, remind myself, I'll remind listeners, I'll remind fans, whoever. These guys come into the league really young and we see them while they're evolving and before our very eyes under this searing spotlight. And so the guy that they are at 19 or 25 or 32 may not be the same guy, just like it wasn't for any of us either. I know you still haven't reached some of those age milestones, Logan.

So, but when you get there, you'll see you're, you will not be the same person at that moment that you were at an earlier moment because you're a smart individual who will constantly self-reflect and evolve. That's what Kyrie has done, I think, to his credit. And I mean this very sincerely. When he left Cleveland, he was, I mean, it was unprecedented. This has never happened. I don't think of the history of the NBA.

He went to three straight finals and won a championship and was playing with the greatest player of this generation, if not potentially all time, and decided I don't want to play with him anymore. I need to move on. I didn't understand it at the time. I sort of understood it a little better. I did a feature where I interviewed Kyrie when he was in Boston going into year two, where we talked about this a little bit.

And I softened my stance a little bit. Sometimes guys need to go spread their wings somewhere and have a little bit more autonomy or whatever. And it didn't work out there either because they have. had Tatum and Brown and others. Like it's not where he picked. That's where he got traded, but that's on him because he forced to trade. I still believe, by the way, even though I've softened my stance, I still think he should

have stayed with LeBron, of course. But at that time, he was bristling, chafing at the fact that LeBron sucked up all the oxygen and got all the credit. Kyrie hit one of the greatest shots of the history of the NBA finals. But it's hard in that position. So he moves on. Boston doesn't work out. Some of that's on him.

Brooklyn doesn't work out. A lot of that is on him. And the guy who lands in Dallas, maybe he's a little bit more humbled by it all. Maybe he's just smarter, wiser for all the experience and for having made some of those mistakes. That's fine. We all make our mistakes. And then by the time you hit 32, which one day you will, Logan, then you realize at that moment, I did some stupid shit. I've learned from it, hopefully. And I think, I think Kyrie has. I think he is the leader of that team in a lot of ways. Luca may be, their foundational star, but Kyrie's the one with the experience and a lot of the know-how, and it's clear they all look up to him. And so I think he's on a phenomenal job. And on top of it all, by the way, like, he has had to ratchet back. He is certainly more comfortable deferring to Luca now than he ever was deferring to anybody else, and particularly LeBron all those years ago. And, you know, that's to his credit. What do you think about, how do you think the reaction is going to be when he goes back to Boston? Oh, my God.

And he said all the right things so far, right? Like, he hasn't said anything inflammatory. Didn't, I think Charles Barkley at the last night during the Turner broadcasts gave advice to like all the prosenghis and Kyrie, just shut the hell up. Just shut up. Don't say anything. Just shut. Don't say anything. I let the media get through to you.

I love what we have Chuck to say that because we can't say that, right? That would sound ridiculous or really obnoxious coming from us from Chuck that you get exactly what it is. And he can say that. Yeah. But I think what Kyrie has said, he said all the right things going into Boston. Yeah.

It's going to be, it's just a, I'm thinking about this in real time. It's going to be a great matchup because I don't know if we've ever seen a matchup in that, you know, like we don't know the Kyrie story in Boston where like he was, tried to position himself. of de facto leader to these young guys

and it's been well documented. Jim and Jalen Brown are good, but they weren't good at a point in time because of the leadership practices of a young Kyrie Irving and how that didn't work out. And Jason Tatum, same thing, was a younger person. I don't think we've ever seen

a young tandem like this play against their vet, one of their former vets in this way. And put that on top of the fact, I'll put that on top of the fact that he's coming back to Boston and the other Prozengis angle, which we'll get into on Monday. But there's so many things that this is going to be very entertaining. And I'm kind of glad that it's starting in Boston. I'm happy that we're just getting right to the shits.

And as intrigued by Chris Depp's Porzingis's return to Dallas for games three and four, that's not intriguing to you? Fuck no. I mean, the thing is like, it's like Boston's, enmity, if I could use that word, toward Kyrie is not just about the way things went while he was there. It's about the way things have gone since he left, right?

Stomping on Lucky, this great offense, you've stomped on lucky. You'd think he had like, you know, I don't, kicked somebody's dog or something. My gosh. Hey, hey, they take that shit seriously in Boston. I remember one time I almost did

during the, by accident, almost did during the finals. 22. It was like something along the lines that you don't disrespect Lucky at any point whatsoever. An arena worker said that to me. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, Boss is a weird place. But that's a thing elsewhere, too. Like, there have been, I'm trying to remember which locker room I was in years ago where it was like, you're not supposed to step on the logo in the logo in the middle of their locker room. And we're like, was it the Warriors? No, it wasn't, it wasn't the word. But like, chill the fuck out, people. It's a logo. It's like, it's a sticker on

the court. Relax. It's lucky. Not, you know, he's not some religious figure. Just stop. Like, please. But Kyrie did that intentionally and emphatically for a reason. And then remember, he got into it with some fans were saying some stuff. And he, didn't he flip them off? Flip the middle finger.

Yeah. So like, he saves the place. There's a lot of just. Yeah. Yeah. Like he has stoked the flames multiple times. And I'm not justifying anything that is possibly coming his way. way in Boston because that place can get a little over the top to say the least.

And that's all I'm going to say. It is not going to be pleasant. It is going to be, it will be vicious. They're vicious in the best of times to opponents. And Kyrie is, I don't know if there's a bigger villain in Boston or just especially, you know, in NBA circles. I don't know if there's a bigger NBA villain in the last 10, 20 years for them than Kyrie.

I mean, more so than Kobe, at least with Kobe. Kobe, it was just about... They came around on Kobe, though. But also that was just about... Maybe it's LeBron. Maybe LeBron. Maybe LeBron. But, like, I don't know. Do you think Boston hated LeBron the way that they hate Kyrie?

It's different. It's personal with Kyrie. Yeah, because, like, it's another thing also, he left Boston. You don't leave Boston. After saying that same stretch of time, that same, like, not calendar year, but schedule year, like, it was literally, I think, in... It was during a fan. event where he said, I'm going to say.

And I want my number raised to the rafters. And then he made a commercial about it. Remember there was like a- He and his dad were in a commercial where it was all about like Boston and being there and being a legend and having your number raised and all that stuff, whatever. And so he reverses on all that.

And then on top of it once he leaves, yeah, he comes back. He stumps unlucky. He gets into it with fans. He's like all these other things. Like there's just a lot there that's much more personal between Kyrie and Boston fans than say,

LeBron or Kobe or somebody else who was just simply a rival. I mean, you'd have to go back to, like, Showtime Lakers or something to see someone hated as much to say. But even that, like, who hates magic, right? Like, you know. No, they hated magic. They called them Tragic Johnson. Yeah, but that's just, again, that's basketball rivalry.

That's just, that's just competitive stuff. That's not personal. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Also, I think Tragic came from a headline, didn't it? Didn't. Oh, Kevin McHale called him Tragic Johnson.

Okay. All right. See, I know my little bit. I'm like 12 years old, but I know a little bit. But anyway, it's going to be an interesting, it's going to be an interesting series of start to the series. Last thing, before we get to a real one of the week, what do you think of this?

And I texted you, and you had no idea what the hell I was talking about last time. When Reggie and Stan Van Gundy were out here talking about, just anointing Luca and Kyrie is the best scoring back. They had to, like, handicap it a little bit, the best scoring back court of all time. Reggie gets a little in his bag and he likes to get lost in the moment at times.

And I felt that in this, I felt that initially. And then I had thoughts. I'd sent you a text of, Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. And then you immediately said, well, Elgin Baylor was a forward. And I'm like, fuck you, Howard.

You did not say, fuck you Howard at our text, Jay, just to be clear. You were much more respectful in the text chain than you are right now. I say that for here. And then I looked, and I had a third Ikeye, trying to put together a list of names.

Look at you going behind my back, try to get statistical help. Trying. So he put Isaiah Thomas. He also put Gail Goodrich, Isaiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, Gail Goodrich and Jerry West, who you brought up, that would be a more cop because they were both guards on the Lakers and led the Lakers to a championship in 72. I think the year after Elgin Baylor retired.

Then Steph and Clay is obviously the one. one that everyone goes to all timers. They had five straight strips of the NBA finals, four titles. That's probably the best comp. And then Luca Donchich right now, it's hard for me to say to anoint them as the best backcourt because they haven't done anything together yet. But in terms of talent, they could be. But it's just, that's why these arguments are so stupid, right, Howard?

I mean, I'm not one who usually gets into like the, let's try to compare people across the areas, whether it's teams and individuals, whatever, because it's just really hard. and the game changes quite a bit. But with this one, like it is important to note that the discussion that they had in the broadcast was about them being the best

offensive back court in history. Not not best winning, not most balanced, not most best two-way. Because if you say... They could have just said to me like they were a great back court. They didn't have to couch it in all these.

Just to get like the superlative out. It could have just been, hey, this is a great back court. They're doing great things. We don't have to anoint them with something right now. Relax. I will just say, like, I understand the point, which is that when you watch what Luca can do with the ball in his hands, as a score, as a playmaker, the number of different ways in which he can score.

His passing is just incredible, his feel for the game. Like, Luca has everything you could possibly want in an offensive player, right? He is incredible. And then with Kyrie as the number two, Kyrie who has the talent to be a number one, like I think there was a lot of issues with Kyrie in terms of personality, temperament, whatever. that kept him from being a number one in this league, but his talent level is the talent level of a number one, right? Sure. His skill set is off the charts.

His body control, his ball control, his ability to get off shots at weird angles and through traffic and all of this stuff. So if the exercise is best, and I know you hate this, offensive back court, and you look at what the two of them can each individually do and how well they've made it mesh, though there's an argument. And if you wanted to broaden the discussion to like, okay,

but, which is what you're doing, what about the other side of the court? Okay, well, Clay Thompson at his peak was a really good defender and an incredible shooter. He's not a,

but he's not a creator, right? He's not, you're not handing the ball to Clay and saying, you know, go, go create a shot for yourself or for one of your teammates.

But would I, if you just said in a vacuum, you know, take them in their, crime and you got to win four series to get to the championship are you taking step and clay or luca and kairie i probably still lead step and clay for all for all that we know about them both both the tangibles and intangibles that's why i think the argument is so stupid though howard because you can never you can't compare them you can never yeah you can never

uh really see it through right because at some point the leadership matters and the temperament matters and how you make your teammates feel and matters and the defense matters and yeah i trust me They haven't even won a title together. That's what I'm like, Reggie, relax. We haven't even gotten there yet, dude. Chill. What if they lose it five to the Celtics? Then what are you going to say?

Which could happen, by the way. You know, we do get out ahead of ourselves. It's the same thing as like, you know, obviously I was the pump the brakes on Edwards as MJ's stuff. Like we do get carried away in the moment with this stuff. We are sometimes prisoners of the moment. But in this sport especially, I think more than the other sports, we love to do this thing where we want to compare across the eras. We want to go straight to the hyperbole. We want to proclaim everybody we're

seeing right now to be the best something. And I just, like I say, if the parameters are drawn as they were for that discussion on the broadcast, then it's fine. If you want to say, like, has there ever been a more skilled guard guard pairing? And the answer might well be no. And the place where I was trying to stretch it a little bit out, because I was kicking this around, the Bulls didn't really have a point guard. You know, it was Michael and Scotty are the two guys who are primarily handling the ball, but Scotty's a small forward, right?

So it's not guard guard. And Ron Harper exists and Steve Kerr exists and whatever. So like, it's hard to make that case. And the other one that hit me, Logan, people have long since forgotten about this and you were not born. But you might have been. You were too small, though.

When the sons acquired Penny Hardaway, and we still thought Penny Hardaway might be Penny Hardaway. Are you serious? Are you serious? That was like 99. They called it Backcourt 2000. And that was Kid and Penny Hardaway. That was what Jason kid with his bleached blonde hair, by the way. Like a backstreet boy.

Don't Google those photos. It's hideous. But Kid and Hardaway had they stayed healthy together, Penny specifically, that could have been amazing, right? but no it was it was not but it was backcourt 2000 that's nuts that's how old are you I was six years old were you do you remember Bleach Blonde Jason kid back court 2000 because I was a Lakers fan one of the first things that got me really like honestly story time with Lola one of the the reasons why I knew who you were Howard is because I was a big Lager fan and you weren't all the

DVDs that's how I became a big fan of yours no actually it was Before DVDs, it was the VHSs. You were in all the Kobe VHSs. And I was like, oh, this guy's, this guy is cool. You definitely, I'm sure it's weird for you, but like you see like the all the old Y2K Howard Beck video appearances in the documentaries. It's hilarious. It's hilarious.

You do look like a, you do, you don't look like a backstreet boy, but you do look like of the grunge era. Like you look at the back end of the grunge era in those, in those documentaries. But I remember all that to say, one of the first VHSs I got was. was a 2000 championship, Lakers championship VHS, and the Lakers played the sons in the first round with the bleach chips and the hair.

And I do remember that. I was six years old when I got that DVD. So in your fucking face. I looked great on VHS, way better than on DVD. No one needs to see me on DVD, Blu-ray, HD, anything. Just stick to VHS with me.

You'll be better off. You don't want to burn your TV. screen. That was that this is the 2000 one. Is that the one where Shacks in the back of the bus singing like it takes two or whatever? It takes two to do. Think a thing go right. That might have been in the 01 one.

Yeah, it's possible. It's possible. I got like three straight back to backs. The back to the one that I really loved was the it was the 2002 one when when they're in when Shacks in the back of the bus and he's freestyle in the, we're going to win a championship takes everything you got. And it's him rapping after the Kings, after they beat the Kings in seven,

acting like they weren't scared of the Kings when they absolutely were scared for their lives that they were going to lose. It was game seven overtime in Sacramento. Like they were pretty close to like. They tried to act like it was cool. Like they were, fuck out of it.

We'll tell those stories. One day we'll tell all those stories on ruins. We'll have a powwow with me and Howard just telling stories out of context. All right, before we get to get out of here, let's do a thing we like to call Rear 1 of the Week. Howard is prepared this week.

We are very excited about that. So as a reward for his preparation, he is now going to go first on Rule 1st. So Howard, who is your Rear 1 of the Week? Sounds so shocked that I was prepared. I was because the last time you gave it was a weird friend Katz shout out that was, I can't fully explain. Wayne. So I hope you do better this time.

I completely had forgotten about that. Yeah, I'm usually doing this on the fly because I'm not used to doing real one of the week because I'm not usually on this episode of real ones. I am prepared. My real one of the week, Logan Murdoch. Drum roll, please. That's a pretty good drum roll. Damn. Charles Barkley. Chuck, and not for his telling Kyrie to keep his mouth shut during the finals, but because. Shut the hell up. I love how outspoken Chuck has been about just this whole media rights situation and Warner Brothers Discovery and their possibility of losing it, which means the possibility of inside the NBA going away.

And it's a really difficult thing for them all politically, diplomatically to deal with. And our friend Tanya Ganguly at the New York Times wrote a story where it was pretty clear some folks with Turner just did not want to go down this road at all with her while she was reporting. And Chuck basically said getting this elevator, we're going to talk while we're on my way out of the arena. And Chuck has not been shy about going on Dan Patrick or anybody else's shows and talking about this openly because Chuck has the ability to do that. No one's going to mess with Charles Barkley. And it's not just that he's speaking up for himself or the show. I really appreciate the fact.

And yes, listen, I spent seven years with Leacher Report, so I was part of Turner. And I spent some time down in Atlanta, and I know a lot of people down there too. But I just, the fact that Chuck has taken up for the fact that, listen, it's not about the four of us up here in front of the cameras. It's all these people behind the cameras. It's dozens of people, 100 people, whatever it is, who make that show what it is. I talked about this a little bit on Brian Curtis's pod last week. But it's, there's a lot of people whose jobs and careers and livelihoods are at stake. And I know it's not comfortable for a lot of folks at Turner for Charles to keep stoking the flames on this and talking about it.

but I appreciate the fact that he is saying all this and not in a way that's self-aggrandizing or self-serving. He's doing it because he genuinely cares about all those folks that he's worked with for years and years there who make that show go and create the magic that we see. And it's, the chemistry on set is one thing. Those guys matter a ton. Obviously, they are the show. But the magic of that show has to do with a lot of other people. And Chuck's my real one of the week, man. I love the fact that he's willing to keep talking about it. I echo those statements. I wasn't a employee like yourself at Turner, but I did intern early in my career. And that changed the trajectory of my life. And also just got me to meet

a lot of different people behind the scenes, just being there. And like you said, and I'll elaborate on this later, but I just want to say there's a lot of great people there, a lot of people behind the scenes that make it work. And you like, you know, a lot of people try to say, you know, there's a work family, but I really got the impression, you know, just with all my homies over there, that it's really a family at Turner, right? It is. Talk about the behind the scenes of people that, you know, that I've gotten to know that I know you've gotten to know Howard.

Those people arrive for each other. And Chuck is an extension of that. You see, and it's different, honestly, and I don't want to, like, get too deep into this, but it's different than a lot of other television broadcasts and television production teams and that this is a group of people that love each other that go to each other's events, their weddings and all of these things that really push for each other. They all live in Atlanta. They're all staying the same circles.

It's a great group of people that are behind the scenes, and they've gone through a lot is what I will say right now. And we'll leave it at that until a decision is made. But I echo all the sentiments that you say in regards to Chuck and being a real one. Because we know in front of the scenes and behind the scenes of what he's done. And it's admirable. All right. So kind of going on that tone, I want to give my real one of the week to the sports,

the sports journalism institute. It is a fraternity. It is a journalism boot camp every year. led by Leon Carter, Greg Lee, and Sandy. This is a organization that has done its part to bring a lot of people of color and underrepresented groups, underrepresented groups into the media space. I am an alumni of this organization in their boot camp they do every year around this time of year. I'm an alumni of this organization.

Malika Andrews is an alumni of this organization. Our pal, Jonathan Abrams, Candace Buckner. A lot of people have come through this great organization. I spoke to the students yesterday. I made me really, really excited for the future of journalism and also the media space. But every year they do a boot camp. When I was doing it, it was at the University of Michigan. Missouri, but it is at Arizona State this year. They do a two-week boot camp and place kids

into internships all across the country. All you got to do is apply. It's free of charge, and they take care of everything. They take care of your travel to the boot camp, and they take care of your travel and housing to your internship location. I was at the commercial appeal, and a lot of other kids have gone through that as well. So I just want to give a shout out to them, especially in the media space that we're in today, where we do need a lot more people of color to tell these stories that are underrepresented. And Sports Journalism Institute does its part every spring. So I just want to give a shout out to them. If y'all can, just go donate.

Give a few dollars. Shout out to Leon. Shout out to Greg. Shout out to Sandy. All the people that do that. So sports journalism institute is my real one or the week. And that has been another edition of Real Ones. Tap in every Monday and Friday throughout the playoffs.

We will see Howard again. We're seeing a lot of him. We're going to see him again on Monday. On VHS. Kerm's not here, but he will kill me if I don't do this because I haven't been doing it over the last few episodes. Real Onesmailbag at gmail.com. Real onesmailbag at gmail.com.

Real onesmail bag at gmail.com. Make sure you tap in with us every Monday. We will answer your questions. We will do our proper finals preview on Monday. We'll answer all your questions. We'll lock in. Can't wait for it. It's going to be a great, great, great finals.

I hope. Anyway, enjoy y'all a weekend of no basketball because I know we will. See y'all on Monday. Tap in, ah, all the shits. You want to do it? You want to do it? You want to do it? Bye!

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