The Ringer NBA Show - What We Think We Know About the 2025-26 Season | Group Chat

Episode Date: July 31, 2025

Justin and Rob are here to discuss some of the rumblings of the offseason and talk through what they think they know ahead of the 2025-26 season. They discuss Luka’s fitness (7:04), competitors in the West (19:29), Kuminga and the Warriors (34:12), the top of the East (53:23), and much more. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob MahoneyProducer: Isaiah BlakelySocial: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to this mid-Samara edition of group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me. As always, it's Rob Mahoney. What's up, buddy? It's all going great, Justin. Am I in the bear suit or are you in the bear suit? I think you're the queen, you know? I love that.

I love that. I don't remember the specific terminology. I appreciate it. But look, I want to give you first pick, honestly. You got a birthday coming up. Happy early birthday, Justin. I feel like it's the least that we could do for you to let you pick between the bear and the queen. How did you know that? I never remember birthdays and I specifically do not advertise them.

I'm locked in. Well, really, I just have all your private information. Social Security credit card numbers. I got the numbers on the back of the credit card. Birthday's light work. I have a scorching take that birthdays are actually the at fault for participation trophy culture because I kind of think that birthdays shouldn't be celebrated. So you think participation trophy culture starts with bringing cupcakes for your birthday and kindergarten. That's really the root of it all. What are we celebrating?

Like that I survived another year? Because here's the thing. If anything dramatic or any accomplishment happens over the course of the year, you're celebrating that in real time. You get a promotion. You get a new job. You have a baby. All this other stuff. Like that is the stuff.

If anything, the birthday just marks that you survived. And so since we're past like, the plague era. I think we could just move along and just mark that like, I'm now a year old. I think we're past that plague era, but we're in many other plagues eras, you know. So here's to another year are still going on, honestly. It's true. How has your summer been going? Finally quiet in a way that is now discomforting, you know? We're so used to churn out these pods. We're so used to hopping on here on group chat with Was twice a week. I don't know what to do with myself, Justin, with all of this kind of time and space in my life. Are you,

you making good use of it? Yes and no. I've got a lot done. I went to the dump the other day, which feels like a little dump. The literal dump, which I have to say the people at the dump were very nice. Maybe it's because you need to be on some sort of chemical in order to deal with the chemical fumes that you were adjusting all day. But just very helpful people. I pulled out a wire fence that was separating my yard by hand with a pickax. a shovel, had to buy both of those. And then I just brought them all down and a U-Haul to the dump, man.

And so that's what I've been doing. It does make sense, though, that you would have to be a very well-adjusted human being to work at the dump. You know, like, you really do have to have an inner serenity to deal with that kind of fumage. So I salute all of our essential workers down there. I salute you for getting your hands dirty a little bit.

Has the summer bounty been good in the garden? Yes and no. So I ended up having two crops that did okay. So the lettuce. just shot right up, no problems. The tomatoes did well. Both plants actually bloom. There is a bounty.

In fact, my little vegetable crisper drawer is full. Right now, the problem is they're small, which like the metaphor is there, if you want it, the big old plant small tomatoes. Sure. And then also my neighbor who has been kind of coaching me along here, he gave me some of his tomatoes and the difference in quality. Oh, no.

is stark. Like, his are excellent. Mine are like passable, I would say. How are you dealing with that contrast? Fine, because I just use his and then allow mine to just rot away. That's fair. But I have been eating a lot of tomato products nonetheless. A lot of like bagels plus the cream cheese plus the tomatoes and the olive oil.

So, yeah, I'm full of tomato right now. I love that for you. I love that for all of us. I feel like as the garden grows more and more robust, we're all going to read the benefits. You know, your quality of life will improve. The podcast will only improve. There's nowhere to go but up.

I've also been hitting the gym a little bit. I'm a little actually perturbed that our friend Luca Donchich took kind of all the eyeballs because I was ready to drop my own puff piece about like my own workout routine, you know. It might have been on the force plate. The four. What is that? It's like what measures your athleticism, you know,

It can really measure your output, your bionic load. I'm just putting words together at this point. I honestly don't know. But look, I think it's an important thing. You got to get your measurements in order to know how far you've come. I don't know how my force plate is. I don't know about my biometric load. But I will say I feel stronger, you know?

And will like the article about my exploits be on like a random Instagram account with like 100 followers? just because it's a guy who just like hits me up about Yannish trade ideas in my DMs and all of a sudden I had to give them the exclusive. Maybe. But I'd like to say it's as important for the coming season nonetheless. I would learn how to use Photoshop

to then Photoshop your glossy gym photos. If you want that, I just want you to know the service is available to you. But the look, the Lucas stuff is taking the world by storm. I don't know what else to say. It's become the story in the NBA this week somehow. Yes.

And we should start. there. So for this episode, we're going to do what we think we know about the upcoming season, 2025, 26. So basically, we've had a couple weeks now to percolate on what happened in the off season. We're kind of assessing like what could happen next season, but we're not quite committing to it. It's basically like take pilots. Like we're starting to get the glimmers of certain ideas. And so think of this as more of like our scratch pad where we're trying out ideas on each other. and we'll see down the road if we really want to commit to them when we get into full pod mode when the season starts. Can I ask you a question on that front?

Was almost certainly will not be listening to this podcast. If you bring up one of your takes again later, should I act surprised like I've never heard it before? And like we didn't do this whole pilot process. It's just as polished as it is for the preseason power rankings or whenever it gets unveiled. I think the truth is that by the time we get to what, mid-September when we see. start the pod back up in earnest. I think we will forget them nonetheless. I think it will be new to all of us. Okay. Fair. I mean, look, speak for yourself. I'm locked in on these, you know, penciled intakes. I think, I think this is going to be some of our better work. I'm excited for

what we got today. Well, I think we should start with Luca, who, as you mentioned, is just the only story in the NBA, not only because it's such a big deal and so stark to see the photos of him and the video of him looking so sveled and tan. He looks great. But also, the media tour that he is on is unlike anything I've seen in recent years, maybe in the past, too, it's very much an old school like George Clooney has a movie out, so he's going to

go to the Today Show. And the fact that Luca showed up in a men's health article, a publication that I wasn't sure still existed, and got what might be the puffiest puff piece I have ever seen. And I've been doing this a very long time. This is a shredded puff piece.

You know? Sure. But in terms of like the sophistication of the reporting, let's say. It was really the state puff marshmallow of man of puff pieces, I would say. Luca Donchitz 2.0 has entered the chat, Rob. Well, before we even get into, you know, Luca's workout routine, his diet, all these things that have empowered him to become Luca 2.0, I need your perspective, Justin, as an editor of NBA content,

how you feel about specifically the co-authors of this men's health program. file accidentally erroneously citing that Luca had a 42 inch vertical at the combine, a combine he did not attend, all because Google AI seems to have erroneously confused Dante Divencenzo's vertical with Luca's vertical. That was a tough one. I have to say, I think that's an editorial problem and an oversight more than it is. Yeah, than it is a writer problem because I think just if you're doing all this work, you're kind of taking information from various sources sometimes.

And yes, was it lazy to just pull the first AI thing from there? Yes, indeed. But it should have gotten caught in the process, I would say, especially if you're vetting it, like we do thoroughly at the ringer where it's like not only originating at her,

but we have the copy to ask me of a fact checker. And so I have to wonder what's going on at men's health. Like are they lacking on the just editorial process? Having worked in magazines myself, I would say I would not be surprised. You know, Sometimes you're missing the multi-layers of catching in that, you know, the various nets that would catch something like that. But ultimately a small thing, everyone knows Luca Donchich did not have a 42-inch vertical, though he is a tremendous athlete in his own way.

And I will say what has been so surprising and kind of stark, specifically watching him last season, with all the injuries, with all the rust, with the conditioning issues. Like, he just wasn't a downhill player anymore. He was getting to the basket less than he ever has before. if this version of Luca shredded Sveld Luca is getting back to those things, then he's an MVP caliber player. Then he's everything that we've wanted him to be, everything that we've seen him be, everything that he was for the best versions of the Dallas Mavericks.

That has to be pretty fucking exciting. If you're a Lakers fan, if you're a part of the organization, if you're D'Andre Aitin, ready to catch lobs from a guy who's actually going downhill again. Yeah, and so that's kind of a take that I'm working with here. I think I'm officially buying the hype. And we should know we're recording this before he goes, plays and what is a Eurobasket this summer with Slovenia. And it seems like he typically does get in shape in order to play with the international

team. Obviously, international competition means a lot to these guys. And the issue tends to be more during the regular season where somehow in the course of an 82 game season puts weight on or isn't like running as much in between. I don't know what is going on with him. But we should see. And obviously the injuries last year added to that, in fact that he wasn't playing and that probably added more weight on for. when he got back with the Lakers.

So we'll see. But this is probably the best I've seen him at all, probably since he was like a pipsqueak rookie. And it was just thin by nature. And so like if he is healthy and engaged, I know the Lakers have a lot of problems on this roster, but not only can Luca kind of paper over those, I think he orchestrating an offense that has a lot of juice to it

can maybe make them such a blistering attack that some of the defensive concerns we could talk about may not mean as a lot. as much in the broader as he thinks. Yeah, there's a lot of questions with the Lakers, how they're going to piece together the rotation, whether that defense is going to be able to hold up against some of the better teams in the West,

what's going on with LeBron on a daily and weekly and monthly basis as the season goes on. If Luka is as good as he can be, and this is a great step in that direction, a lot of those questions just don't mean that much anymore. They're just not that powerful, like a motivator for the team anymore. And I think that's the part of this that to revisit the trade in the first place,

which I'm sorry, we're just going to have to do perpetually, probably until the end of time, but certainly within the calendar year since the trade. This has always been a player who has been incredibly moved by being called out directly and challenged directly. By revenge. Yeah.

By revenge. And not only trading him, but then going in the media and saying, we basically did this because we don't believe in his defense. We basically did this because we don't believe in his long-term outlook. We want to be a win now team. I don't know. It moves a guy to.

to get in the gym. It moves the guy to intermittent fast. And intermittent fasting, apparently, the new plant-based diet as far as the NBA is concerned. So congratulations to all the intermittent fasters out there. Are you not hip to this? Apparently, this is a thing. It's been a thing, but has it been a thing in the NBA? I haven't seen the like Chris Paul-esque investment in plant-based technologies. Not that you really need any technologies to fast in this way, but I think it's coming to the big leagues. I'll say that. I think it's coming. I think it's coming. to everyone because all of the workout Instagrams that I've been cramming over the offseason. They're all like, you don't eat until noon. You work out before you've had the first dish.

Like that is a thing. And it seems like honestly, what the Luca plan sounds very similar to a lot of these like bozos that I get fed via my algorithm where it's like to the point where he uses like the trap, he's eating a lot of protein, which God forbid anyone not eat less than 200 grams of protein or whatever in a daily sitting nowadays. Don't you're just like an an ogre at this point. Hopefully at the point where they're advertising how many grams of protein like popcorn has

in it. I'm like guys, we have lost the fucking plot. I'm like very important for everyone's diet. We got to chill a little bit. Yeah. He's using the trap bar to do squats, which I remember specifically our friend Tom Havistrow writing about help

Steph Curry overcome his ankle issues long ago. Wow. And so I started using that because I wanted to follow this F. Curry plan, I saw Luca doing that. So based on my limited understanding of the human body, Luca is doing all of the right things. So you've been following the Steph plan. Will you be following the particulars of the Luca plan? Because you can go into exhaustive detail in men's health side pieces off this profile to learn about the ins and outs of his diet. I don't need any help eating more protein. If anything, I probably need to eat less. So yeah, I guess I am kind of following. But I have a hard time. So I would say the West is going to be particularly deep.

There are about like seven teams at this point that I could see making the finals. Now, would I say the odds, the percentage pie of like three of those teams being way more than some of the other ones. But like, yes, but I would say the Lakers at the very least have a sliver of pie. You know, they have like, they have a percent. They're in the single digit percent chances of it. And if Luca could be this, and if LeBron buys in, which is a two-track kind of question, you have to constantly weigh, it's almost like the Kauai thing where it's like, if Kauai's healthy, the clippers are this. And if he's not, they're this. Whereas the Lakers, if LeBron is engaged, they're this. And if not, he's this, they're this other team. But like, I can see it. I could

see the plan working. I would say this, that without this version of Luca, there is no chance. the version of the Mavericks that got to the finals with Luca, not in this kind of shape, but in better shape than he was last season, had just kind of more at his disposal, more weapons he understood how to use an ingrained sense of chemistry and continuity with that group in a lot of ways, a true like shot-creating counterbalance in Kyrie Irving as far as someone who's going to look for their own shot as much as anything else.

Like LeBron is a different kind of score and creator, especially at this stage in his career. This is a different kind of team. And it demands something different physically. from Luca than what he was doing in Dallas. And so this is not just an important step, it's an essential step in terms of the Lakers being contenders in any kind of way whatsoever.

So the fact that they are on that board, that they do have their little slice of pie, that they could expand it potentially, depending on what happens with their roster and which guys click and which guys don't. All of that comes down to whether Luca can play as the best version of himself. And we're inching closer to that possibility, if not probability.

The Mavs, when they made the finals in 2022, which was a bit of a surprise, not unlike the 20th, 23 season, which they had a better regular season. Luca played with Jalen Brunson, Reggie Bullock, Dorian Finney Smith,

and Dwight Powell as the NBA, the Western Conference Finals line up there. Christops was obviously hurt there. Looking back on it, that Christops Brunson, Luca, triumvirate might have been like one of the biggest what-ifs in recent NBA history, but like he was able to will that team.

Yeah. To the U.S. finals. I think he could, do that with the assemblage on on the Lakers, especially because they have so much creation in offensive juice, and specifically to allow both Luca and LeBron to sit, if necessary. Reeves can step in and fill that. They actually quietly have the type of team that can will them to wins to not put them in a disadvantage once they get to a playoff series.

Now, will the defensive concerns start to show more than, as they did last season? Most likely, but you're giving yourself a fighting chance. And so in the big LeBron question of like, is he capable of competing in his waning years, perhaps his last season with the Lakers? I think at the very least, it's on the table. Yeah.

And there's, they're kind of our separate questions here, as you're alluding to. Are the Lakers good? Clearly, this was a 50 win team, even with the trade, even with the,

you know, all the changes midstream last year, even with everything that was going on with Luca, still a 50 win team. They will be quite good again. Are they going to be good? good enough to push the thunder and the rockets and the wolves and the nuggets in particular, I think that's a bit of a taller order that would require rectifying some of those,

specifically the deficits on defense we've been talking about. They would just need to find at least a stout like five-man group they got throughout there for specific stretches. I don't even think they have that right now defensively. I'm not sure they will with this personnel. They might have to make some changes to the roster to make that happen. But they are in the mix, as we often say with them, They are firmly in the mix.

And that in itself is something to be congratulated. That in itself is something to chase and to push forward. And when you have Luca Donchich, that's what you're fighting for every year. It's like, how do you get yourself deeper and deeper into that contending conversation? Yeah, I would say the Lakers aren't better than last year, but they're about the same and just kind of different, right? They just have to fill the Dorian Finney Smith with enough minutes between Aiton and Marcus Smart. I wouldn't be surprised if smart actually does play well, which is a big if he had a couple good games toward the end of his Wizards run for whatever. that is worth. Maybe they can close with him as kind of the de facto small ball center on offense

and then he could be more of a honding guard defensively. Since we're kind of talking around this issue, why don't we jump to the question we have here about the West in general, which, so I kind of mention it there. I could see seven teams. And this is different than in years past where there were teams that we could see winning. There was like a handful between both conferences. I feel like most of them are in the West, one. And I can't remember a time when it were so deep in teams on an elite tier, like between OKC, Denver, Houston, Minnesota, and then I think you have to give credit to the Clippers in Golden State and the Lakers.

It's a really weird time where there are so many teams that have everything that we've said allows you to win in the regular season now, which is the. top level talent plus the depth to support that. And so I guess this gets around to my kind of overall thinking here, which is that I think the thunder are the best team, but I almost might have a hard time picking them as the eventual champions just because the road to get there is going to be so much more difficult. Does that make sense? It does make sense.

This is an incredibly deep conference. Repeating in today's NBA is tremendously difficult, as we have seen for every team that's tried to attempt it recently. I don't think we should expect any champion to go back to back basically until we see it, until we see someone kind of break through that damn. That said, if any team is going to do it, I think there's a lot of reasons to think it would be the Thunder, right? Like they are the youngest recent champion by a mile.

And so as far as the wear and tear of two highly competitive long seasons, you would think they might be better suited to handle that kind of thing than some of these other veteran teams that have run through the gauntlet twice previously. The stakeholders for the Thunder are going to be better. Like Chet, J-dub, Kason Wallace in particular, those guys are right at the age and right at the point in their careers where guys usually start to take off in a different way. I think we saw it with J-dub in the playoffs in particular

and in the finals, like really deliver in some of those moments. And their roster is intact because the finances are just different for them than they were for so many of the other recent champions. So like they didn't lose a critical member of their rotation to free agency because they couldn't pay him because they didn't have the money because of the tax, whatever. It's like they have the same group. So they're not getting pulled apart in the way that their championship teams are.

They just have to fend off these other contenders and challengers that are going to be a little bit better in the West in particular. I think they can probably do it. But I'm with you in this like mental trap of like how do you, if you are the thunder, how do you pierce through a field that's this competitive when, you know, it seems like the Lakers are a great example. I don't think the Lakers have quite enough to make it through four rounds.

I do think they have enough to be a spoiler. and upset, potentially, quote unquote, upset. They may have a better record, but to beat a team that might have ultimately a stronger contending case than them. Yeah. NBA history is written by a select few dominant teams that kind of just raised over any other sort of competition. Teams like the Grin' Grind Grizzlies had a moment,

but they were ultimately and they might ultimately be forgot to time just because the warriors were so dumb, right? But not to us. us. We will never lose that. Yeah. Tony Allen. First team all defense.

Yes. His post game diatribes, I think, will just float around my head until the day I die. But I do wonder if the Thunder are that team. And they certainly could be that team. They're on that level and they are built, as you mentioned, in order to do so. Like the difference between them being that team next season is really probably a leap from Chet, which is expected, not just like. possible within the next two years.

Also, like, the Summer League guys are just great. Like, AJ Mitchell looked like one of the best guys in Summer League. I also started seeing some Brooks Barnheiser buns. I don't know. I don't know if you caught that as well. Like, I saw someone talking about

all the stocks he got, the steals and blocks together. So maybe he's another second round guy. They have everything you would want. Yeah. But I just can't remember a field this competitive also in the same. conference where like Denver was already pushing them pretty sternly in that second round series if they had the depth to go back at them if there's an injury with the thunder and an untimely

one if Chet gets injured later in the season as opposed to midseason as he did the last time. All of a sudden it opens the door and the margin for error is slimmer than ever before. Like the fact that if I were to like power rank these just off the top of my head, the fact that like Minnesota who has made the past two Western Conference finals is fourth on the chopping block, it's why. And so they're going to have the work cut out for it. They are going to have their work cut out for them. And to be very clear about this, if the question in any season is contender X or the field, the answer is the field. Sure. I think there are only a couple of historical exceptions to that. And it basically takes something like the Warriors adding

Kevin Durant in order for you to even to hesitate about taking the field. Like, even the best champions, the best contenders, are going to have like a 25 to 30 percent chance of winning. And that's an amazing shot. But you never know what can happen. You never know what could upset the apple cart. Shea has an injury and all of a sudden everything looks totally different. You know, the wrong guy gets hurt at the wrong time and everything looks totally different. So we don't want to get ahead of ourselves with any of this stuff.

I do think the challenge in the West is formidable to the point that I think whatever team makes it out of the West, I think clearly is going to be well positioned to win the NBA finals. the East just doesn't have the same like caliber of top flight competition. Maybe that'll put a drain on a team, but I kind of think it'll harden them. If it's the thunder, if it's the rockets, if it's the nuggets, if it's the wolves, if it's whoever, like, you're going to have to really prove something to yourself and to everyone else in the field to make it through a Western conference like that. And what it looks like on the other side, I can't wait to see. I can't wait to see a Thunder team that has proven even more than we've already seen potentially.

So I have a hard time just giving it to the Thunder. but I also have a hard time picking some sort of dark horse that might crack that top seven. Like I want to zag as we typically do around this time and say like, you know what? Portland's on to something. Dame just coaching from the bench. Scoot's going to just take off with the rearing of both Drew and Dame

and Chauncey Billups in his ear. It's very difficult to want to believe in one of those teams beyond that. I think the only team that really has a shot might be the San Antonio Spurs because like we were saying, history being dictated by the very elite talent, the very best teams, could Victor Webbenyama be one of those guys?

So you're talking about to get a portion of the pie to make the West finals? Like what is aspirational for the Spurs at this point? Yeah, I think break into the top six would be a good goal for them. That would be like the ceiling I think next season considering the West. I think they could do it. I think

they have that kind of potential on them. And frankly, we just haven't seen enough of the Wembe, Deeran Fox partnership in particular to quite know what to expect. But shoring up the bigs behind Wemby, I think is going to do incredible work for the Spurs defense, which completely collapsed when he wasn't on the floor. Now you have Luke Cornett to help with some of that stuff. Now you have the actual ability to maintain a rotation behind your star player, which is so important. Victor Wemianamu was going to win defensive player of the year. If he didn't have to duck out of the lineup, I assume he will, win this season. I also think he's going to be one of these guys who, if they have the kind of

outcome we're talking about where the spurs are in the top six, he's going to be an MVP conversations too. Like we're going to have that talk with, you know, the newly sveled Luca, with Yokic, with Shay, with Janus, I'm sure, always perpetually there. I think Wemby is going to kind of insert himself into that group. And he's, he's already kind of shown it. They just haven't really had the team results to carry that sort of candidacy yet. Yeah, the case for Wemby is that he's historically good and the defense had already been there and he was still at the point where month by month was taking pretty dramatic steps in his offensive game and you have to wonder if he's just going to reprise that as soon as he gets back into the lineup. According to

an article two weeks ago, just the spurs say that he is back in playing some basketball after his sojourn to the Shaolin temples in order to work on his kung fu. Maybe that unlocks some part of of his game that we're not aware of. I don't know if you've ever been to a Shaolin temple and practiced kung fu with monks before. Not as of yet. That's for deeper in the off season. You know, I think there's room for all of us to grow and improve in our spiritual journeys, Justin.

But the counterpoint would just be the lack of actual on-court time with Dyer and Fox. I believe they played five games last year and that they've gotten more talented this offseason, but I also wonder if they've gotten younger and thus maybe not as ready to compete on the high level of some of the best players in the world with depth executing in real time. And so I love the draft that they have. I think Harper has a pretty bright future. He looks good. And then Brian just immediately jumped out to me in the little amount of Summer League that I did watch. It just seems like he fits the mold of the 3&D guy. They're kind of lacking like the cell has tried in that role for our time, Kelton Johnson.

They have options on the wing. He just plays such a very clear vision of what you would want in that role, especially around Wembe. I just wonder if they're going to cycle through more mistakes as a result, not having the steady hand of Chris Ball and then turning it over more to Stefan Castle, perhaps to run them.

Dylan Harper, who is a rookie who hasn't had many reps there. I also wonder what role he's going to have. Is he going to run the second unit? Is he going to play next to Fox? There's just a lot to figure out on the fly, which might keep them from reaching a ceiling of being in the top six. Yes. All those question marks tend to add up.

Even if half of them break in a positive direction, the other half could end up holding you back in a way that makes you more of a play-in team. I think their win-total last season was a little suppressed just by their health and their circumstances. And again, the timing of the trade with Fox in particular. Having him for the full season, having an actual downhill player for a full season, I think will be huge in addition to Castle, adding another stretch big in Kelly O'Lynn, to help broaden out the lineup as well.

Like, they just have options in a way that they didn't before. And all that flexibility that you're, you know, ascribing some kind of like vague, open-ended quality to, which I think is all true. Like, we just don't know who those young players are going to be yet. They're also just different enough that you can say, okay, well, maybe this is a Kelton Johnson moment. Maybe this is a Dylan Harper moment.

You know, maybe this is a Harrison Barnes moment. Maybe it's not. Maybe we need to go bigger. Maybe there's something else that fits this occasion or this lineup more than what we've been leaning on in the past. Spurs just didn't have those possibilities before. Now they do, in addition to a star who unlocks so much for everyone else around him, like, that's an exciting time and speaks to a team that's really on the cusp of something,

whether it's a top six, you know, a season or not. Well, if they did make the top six, they would displace two of the teams that we've mentioned before. Do you think any of these teams are most susceptible to being pushed down by a wembe jump? man it's tough again i think this is going to be the kind of year we i mean we saw last year how many teams ended up with near about 50 wins i think ultimately the west wind totals are going to be pulled down a bit just because of even more teams being competitive potentially and so it wouldn't surprise me to see teams that are you know fighting for a playoff spot fighting to stay out of the play in everyone kind of around like 46 47 wins maybe um and i could see you know the clippers being

pulled into that conversation. I could see the wolves being pulled into that conversation. I think the wolves have their own questions as far as like, how do you replace Nikiel Alexander Walker's minutes, for example? What happens if Julius Randall has a downseason as he sometimes does in odd years or whatever? So there's a lot to figure out for all of these teams, not to say nothing of the new pieces, especially in Houston, which is going to completely reconfigure its offense, may not be, you know, an outright juggernaut in the regular season, but I think has the balance to be one of the best

teams in the league. There's just so much wait and see. And there's a lot of wait and see see with the Spurs and they're going to figure into that. But I just wouldn't be surprised at this point to see them bump into that group. I'm a little worried about the wolves. If only because all of these teams, at least the top tier of them, all made moves to dramatically improve. Whereas like Denver adds a bench, Houston adds Kevin Durand and Doran Phine Smith and a bunch of other guys in order to fill off the bench. And they had to lose someone in Walker who is ancillary to like the core, but it's still, you had to lose an element of the team that I think spoke to the flexibility, especially if you wanted to go a little bit smaller, which they typically

do in the postseason. I think the big key would be as Terran Shannon can just walk into that role. He seemed like he played pretty well in Summer League, shot the ball pretty well. He's older too. I didn't realize he's like 24. And so like you don't really have to wait even though he was a rookie, I believe last season. But like, do we know what Dillingham is at this point? We do not. The type of things that might slip a little bit and thus push them further down in the regular season standings.

As you mentioned, it's going to be a knife fight just to get to 50 wins at this point. Yeah. If they're going to make additions, it is additions by internal development. It is Dillingham. It is Shannon. It is Jalen Clark. It's all three of those guys taking meaningful steps forward at a time where not only are you offsetting Nikiel Alexander Walker leaving.

You're offsetting Mike Conno getting older. You're offsetting, you know, like, you just need to find more rotation ballast at this point if you're the wolves. And that's where it would have been great to see them bring in one more veteran guy who you could feel confident about in a pinch could fill minutes. They just haven't really been able to accomplish that. But I think we've seen enough from Shannon to think that he could be one of these guys, that he could be a real eight-man playoff rotation kind of contributor. Clark might be a little too one-sided at this point, defense forward. And Dillingham, I just have no clue. He's so small.

It's so hard to, like, chart his course to being a really high level NBA player or specifically somebody who wouldn't be targeted when you give him, you know, a series going against like, if Luca Donchich is on the floor at the same time as Rob Dillingham, like, I'm concerned. You know, like if a creator like that is on the floor, I'm concerned. I did like the Johann Berengue minutes we got in Summer League. That guy seems like a player. You're just in your bag today. I got to say. I started, you're in my head, I could tell. because I've started to look up the pronunciation of these guys in anticipation of certain pods.

So if you've ever wondered what effect you've had on me is just to scare me straight in terms of not fucking things up. I appreciate it. But I don't know if you caught some Bergeret, but like he's a block machine and he's like all of 19 years old, I believe. I think he's one of the youngest players in the draft. Like if they have yet another center in order to spot Gober sometimes in the regular season, also makes it a little bit easier maybe to work a trait. maybe you don't need Nas read as much as the third center. You probably do next season just because he fills so many different roles.

Totally. And it gives them so much lineup versatility. But like, I don't know, they're just like kind of slowly ushering in a wave of young guys that I think will benefit them down the road. And so I actually like the wolves future. But maybe next season is the half measure in order to get there, the half step. It does feel that way. Like financially speaking, it was kind of like a deck clearing moment in a lot of sense. kind of repositioning what this roster is going to be,

resigning some critical guys like Nas Reed and Julius Randall in particular. And we're going to have to see kind of like where the growth comes from over time. And as usual, a lot of it comes down to how much more could Anthony Edwards potentially give you from what he's already giving you, which is quite a fucking bit. So if he takes a meaningful step forward, am I ringing my hands about the Rob Dillingham?

And it's probably not so much. But he's got to do it and it gets harder and harder to level up, you know, the higher you get into superstardom. Well, the other team that I would probably mention in that discussion there, perhaps like dropping out of that core seven would be the Warriors, who in addition to Luca's just like his body fat percentage, the update we're getting all the time now is where is Jonathan Kaminga and his contract negotiations with the Warriors. Spoiler, not very far, because it just seems like they are now haggling over whether or not he would take a one-year deal, which would give him a de facto no trade clause versus a two-year deal with a team option on the end. end of it in order to give the warriors control of an eventual trade of him. That's one part of this. But in addition to that, it seems like all the rest of their moves are hung up because they can't make a comminga move or they can't sign the guys that they're expected to sign Al

Horford, De Anthony Melton, and I believe Seth Curry are the names there until they deal with Kaminga because of the capitals. By the way, I've never seen anything like that. And even a reporter won't even acknowledge that these deals are basically. in pencil at this point. Maybe that's like a league we're trying to cut down on tampering. And so the reporters are going along with it. But all indications are they're going to sign those guys once they deal with Kaminga. But I'm left at a position where like, I don't know if those guys are the types I would be targeting in order to trudge through a regular season because we're

talking about Horford, now 39 years old. Anthony Melton, who has played 44 games total over the past two years in Seth Curry, who couldn't even break into the rotation of the Charlotte Hornets next year. And so I'm worried, I think that the playoffs are a different story. We can talk about that, but getting to a high seed in the West is going to be very difficult for a team this old. Completely. This is where, you know, if you start to think about what the warriors are missing, they're missing those sorts of young legs that can get you through a regular season. They're missing the kinds of volume scores that are essential to relieve pressure. on Steph and Jimmy in particular.

They're missing something that sounds a lot like Jonathan Cuminga, if we're all being honest about it. And I say this is someone who thinks that the Cominga experiment in Golden State has not really worked, has been disruptive. I think there's blame on both sides for that in terms of the way he's been used and the positions he's been put in and also the way that Comingga envisions his own career and his own talent and his understanding of how he fits into a greater team context. All of that has been a problem.

But at this point, Golden State doesn't seem super keen on the, the sign and trade returns from teams like Sacramento and Phoenix who, if the Kings and the Sons are the ones who want to give you a big bag of money, again, it's saying something. I don't, you can infer for yourself what it says, but it says something.

It does seem like a lot would be pointing to a potential return. And that's why it makes sense to haggle over the potential no trade clause, you know, in effect, the potential team option from the warrior's perspective and why they would want that and why they would want control over if they're not going to keep coming into trade him for someone who can fill some of these needs because they just need younger stallions who can run the 82 game race.

Like they need that a little bit more than what they have because they have a lot of good players. They have a lot of guys that we like. Anthony Melton, case and point, like a really good player when he's healthy, but when he's healthy is a pretty huge caveat with him these days. Yeah. And the weird thing is they almost have that reserve of young legs, but they're just not stabilizers in the way that you would need.

Yeah. because we still don't really know who Brandon Projemsky is. He didn't have a very good postseason and fluctuated at times in the regular season. And a much stronger second half than he did in the first half. Moses Moody, I don't know. He's a guy. I still kind of like him, but he has some real low, like the lulls are intense. Right.

And to your point about just the context, like, I don't think Kerr has necessarily fostered a lot of development and has. been pretty quick to pull the leash on some of these guys when they aren't playing up to the level that he needs them to. And so it's just very messy. And I'm just wondering where the stability is coming from. I think you would say Steph and Jimmy, but like, I think we got the best version of Jimmy in that second half with the Warriors. The fact that he only missed two games after signing up with the Warriors suggests to me that we might actually be in for the reverse next year where he is going to be a night to night question mark. And,

then you add Steph on top of that, who was paced a little bit more deliberately throughout the regular season. I'm just like, where are the regular season wins going to come from on a Wednesday night in Houston when Jimmy all of a sudden has an ankle turn? He's been out for two weeks. It was also like the record after trading for Jimmy was incredible. 23 and 7 overall after trading for him. That's with the team going basically all out for seating and all out for chemistry and all out to try to pull their season together. They cannot do that for 82 games again. Like that's not the kind of pacing you should want for a season like this.

And that's where, you know, if you are going to indulge the sign-in trade stuff for Kaminga, like the King's offers have reportedly been a little underwhelming. And there's been some haggling over like Devin Carter in particular, whether he could be involved in a deal. Like, if I were Golden State, like, I get why they're interested in Devin Carter. He's an interesting prospect. I'd be interested in Malik Monk. Like, that's the kind of guy you need is somebody who's going to just like be able to fill

it up in a way that isn't quite as playmaking, depending. as Buddy healed, for example. Like, you just need someone who's a scoring stabilizer in the way that Draymond is going to be a defensive stabilizer in the way that Jimmy and Steph are going to open things up for so many people around them, in that Al Horford is going to facilitate a lot of that stuff. But you got to have someone who can really, really shoot. And I think the guys on this team, Seth Curry is a great percentage shooter, but it's

so small he struggles sometimes getting those shots off. Maybe that won't be as much of a problem in Golden State because of the movement of their offense. Buddy is so streaky. Brandon Pajemskiy's three in particular is so. streaky to say nothing about, you know, his decision making and the way that can kind of ebb and flow over the course of a season or even within a game. So like they just have, again, another team with a lot of moving parts and a lot of variables and what they really need

is somebody who can get you 20 on a given night. And there aren't a lot of guys on this team that can actually do that. Yeah. They're the classic example of a team that needs a consolidation trade. But the players in order to get there are so compromised and their values probably at such a low level at this point. It's hard to do that, which is unfortunate. because the whole value of having a two-track plan is if you wanted to consolidate into one, like, clear track, you could just trade the young guys for a better player and all of a sudden, there you are. But unfortunately, none of those guys has ever gotten there.

It seems like Pesensky plays probably his best basketball because he is in a system that really brings out the best of his feel, you know? He's very much a warrior's player. But when we get down into a playoff series, he obviously sacrifices him size. and if the shooting's not there, it's hard to really play him for extended minutes. Caminga's really the tension point of this entire team and infer a lot of the league, because he should be the guy you use

in order to get somebody else in there. But as you mentioned, the fact that the Kings and the Sons are the only team sniffing around is a pretty glaring indictment. And I just don't know what to do there because even if you bring him back, let's just say he signs a qualifying offer.

Is he not even going to be engaged in being a warrior because he's just a, doesn't want to play the physical style in order to get, because he's worried about getting hurt. Can I ask you a question? Has Jonathan Cuminga ever been engaged in being a warrior? At times when all the good players aren't on the court, unfortunately. Yes.

I mean, that's where, you know, that's what the money is for, right? That is the big dangling carrot is if you do take the qualifying, you're putting a big bet on yourself, but you're also accepting all the risk that comes with that. And so that risk in some ways is production-based. Like, right, you need to go out and deliver

in a way that's going to entice other teams. to give you your next deal. It's also intel-based, and you need to go out and be like kind of a good soldier who can prove you can be a part of something or else the only teams that are going to be interested in you are teams like the Kings and the Suns. So if you want to expand your market beyond that,

and maybe he doesn't care about that. Maybe he just wants the guaranteed money, and I am certainly not begrudging him that. Like, take the $90 million deal if you can get it. But ultimately, he's going to have a lot to prove regardless. We haven't seen many players take the qualifying. It's been increasing rarity, especially as the guaranteed contract values have gone up around the league. It's just hard to not talk yourself into some kind of security.

Was it about the money for Peggy and Don, though? You know, when you really boil it down? Yeah. Was it more about the acceptance that the money suggests? Well, one follows the other, doesn't it? Doesn't it symbolize something? Have you not seen Mad Men? I have seen Mad Men.

I know what you're talking about. Uh-huh. But you just don't live and die by. these cool quotes that get tossed around. That's what the money is. Like, I'm citing it specifically for this reason. I don't know who is the Peggy and who is the Donne. I guess Mike Dunleavy is the Donnelly and Jonathan Cummings is the Peggy. I guess so. Yeah. But it really wasn't about the money is what I'm saying. And it might not be for Jonathan Cominga. He just wants to be the bright shining star wants someone to tell him that's who he is. And so I think even if he comes back on the qualifying,

and even if he has everybody telling him, hey, you have to be a good soldier in order to get what you want. I don't even know if he'll get that. there because he just wants to prove that he can be a superstar. And like, you know what? We're all just humans in the end. And so like, I don't, I don't begrudgeon for it. It's not about the money, right? No. This whole situation is so busted at this point. Honestly, the commingo warriors relationship. And I'm not saying this based on like some murmuring behind the scenes. I'm just saying it based on the developmental track and the frustrations on both sides. This does not feel like a salvageable relationship. And in that way, I would hope that Golden State could take a lot of

lessons from this. I would hope that Steve Kerr has learned a lot from this process. And when you think about players like Brandon Pajempsky and how much rope you give them and how you want them to feel a part of it in addition to not just like playing their role within the Steph and Draymond and Jimmy Butler machine, but having the flexibility to be creative to stretch out their games to do the kinds of things that Jonathan Cominga wanted to do and was capable of doing. There has to be a happier medium than this. There's got to be a better outcome than getting to this kind of inflection point. Yeah, it's at a weird point where I would feel better about the Warriors if they did make one of these trades in order to just get capable bodies into the spot of Kaminga just because they would have more options that at the very least cycle through rotation players.

Like Devin Carter is a prime example where, first of all, I can't believe we're at the point where we're trading Devin Carter, who was supposed to be the second coming of Davian Mitchell. Well, they're not trading Devin Carter. That's the whole thing. Well, it sounds like they want to, right? but they're more haggling over the pick would be where the sticking point is. The proposal according to ESPN was Devin Carter, Dario Sarich, and a protected first. And I think the warriors would prefer that to be an unprotected first, especially considering the Kings's future or immediate even. Shout out to our guy Anthony Slater, by the way, who has been all over this particular beat and has been locked in as somebody who has covered the Warriors and the Kings about as well as anybody.

this is Slater time I'm glad to see him really thriving at ESPN doing the TV hits already this is a Slater story sitting the ground running do you want to talk about the Kings here because we have them on our list as well I do feel like

this has been one of the more baffling off seasons for any team in recent history but it almost feels like they're still trying to one up themselves by getting into the Kaminga Derby it's really fucking bleak it just feels worse and worse.

I know not a lot is happening at this point, but the more that all of that sets in, the more all of it crystallizes and you're kind of like wrapping your arms around what this team is and is going to be, the Kings feel trapped in a way that no other team in the league feels trapped. To the point where I genuinely think

I would take any other team's fuchsure over there. I don't like the position that they're in. They have good talented players, but they are, for one, boxed out by all of the Good West teams we have already talked about. They just do not have a path to being a top six team in particular.

I think there's a path in which they are not even in the play in. And I think there's also a path in which they make the play in, but making it is a bulls-esque affirmation of the roster that they have constructed and thus only encouraging the direction that they're going in,

which might be worse than that. They just made this huge investment in Zach Levine, and they're soon going to have to make another big investment in him again, or he's going to walk out the door, which both outcomes would be kind of bad in their own way.

They just made a huge investment and Dennis Schrooter for reasons that no one can quite understand. The best players on the team, the ones you would ostensibly trade if you did want to change directions in any kind of way whatsoever, all have such heavy caveats that they don't have trade markets, that there is no real market for, you know, what Sacramento gets from DeMontes-Sabonis is so much better

than what almost any other team would give up for DeMontas-Sabonis that there's no reason to trade him. And so then you're left with these, like, I don't know, they're not golden handcuffs. They're like rusted, like tetanus bound handcuffs. And you're just stuck here. You're basically in a saw like reverse bear trap situation in which you cannot get out of this. I don't know what you're supposed to do if you're the Kings.

And you, to be very clear, have created this problem for yourself. Remember a couple of weeks ago when we were expecting Subbonis to have like some sort of conversations about potentially like seeing if there's a trade out there for, I don't if I was coming from the Kings or Subonis's end, but there was supposed to be like a meaning of the minds to figure out his future there. And then just nothing happened, partly probably because there isn't a market for Sabonis because he doesn't really fit anywhere else. And also, the Kings can't necessarily get rid of him because he's still their best player. Easily. Like, not even close to their best player. And yet doesn't totally fit with some of the other players they're

bringing in over the course of the past six months. And if they bring in Kaminga, that only complicates the fit because those are both to, well, I guess Subonis is shooting threes now, but he's still doing it at a very low volume, but like very high level, though, high accuracy for Subonis, for sure. He was excellent last year on like a couple of a game, but to bring in Cominga certainly isn't going to boost the spacing in order to to help overall. And so it's just a very complicated situation. I think the question is, is you kind of brought up there is like who has the worst future from this point forward. I think the only two other teams in consideration are the sons who they find themselves in a derby with in order to get Kaminga.

But ultimately, they have Devin Booker and they have some other stuff. I think Malawatch is interesting. We'll see about that. But they don't have any other first round picks to trade at this point. And so they are locked in. We should say that about the Kings. Like, they don't really have a ton of picks out the door. Really, they have control of a lot of their own future draft destiny other than like one pretty distant swap with the spurs down the line.

And I think they have that offsetting because they have an incoming wolves pick that's also way down the line. So the draft position is fine. But the young players that the kings have drafted have also been like kind of okay. Like it's guys who are role players, guys who have leveled out. No one is like there's been no transformational pick in there. And so ideally you would want some young talent or the track record scouting wise to show that you can find the young talent that's going to change his team. And they don't really have that either. Yeah.

So it's really, do you prefer a situation where Devin Booker is trapped? in a bathroom, saw like attached to a toilet or whatever it was. I mean, attached to the NBA's most expensive toilet. Like he's setting records for the contract extension he's assigned. I think he's going to be all right. Yeah, he's just counting his money while on the toilet, perhaps. But it's a toilet nonetheless.

Let's not be. Okay, okay. But versus the kings who have options, but we have no faith that they would make something out of that potential in those options. and the only other team I think we could talk about in this whole mix is the Pelicans who are in a similar situation. Yes. Where not only do they have picks, but they also have so many young players that they only have two players over the age of 27 on the entire roster, one of whom is Kavanaugh-Luny, who they just brought in this off season in order to give them one of like five center options that they have at this point.

And then they have the Jante Murray, their big pick up from last office. But other than that, it's just a lot of young guys. And so, again, I have no faith in this organization. They've made virtually all the wrong moves since Joe Dumars has taken over. But they have so much young talent, it's possible that they might stumble into something that they didn't intend to. I think that's a real possibility. I also think if you gave a lot of teams in the league, the opportunity to say, hey, you can have any player from these two rosters, from the Pelicans or the Sacramento Kings, I think there's a not insignificant number of teams that would take trade murder.

as just like the safest, most flexible, most versatile player on the board where you don't have the injury risk hanging over someone like Zion, you don't have the ceiling lowering quality of someone like Sabonis who kind of defines how you play and thus defines how good you can be as a team. He's just an open-ended player who could fit with almost anybody. And so his trademarked, if the Pelicans ever needed to investigate that, I think would be pretty incredible. I think there'd be a lot of really competitive offers. That just doesn't exist for Zach Levine. That just doesn't exist for Demar de Rosen. And God forbid, if they do make that Jonathan Cominga trade,

if the Kings start Dennis Schroeder, Zach Levine, DeMarer de Rosen, Jonathan Comiga, De Manasabonis, I think we need to go on a hunger strike. I think we're going to have to take some drastic measures before we watch another Kings game. Yeah, if you factored in contracts, I almost wonder if you might take, if you were to take the three teams

and almost draft the players. Yeah. I think Trey Murphy might be at the top there. I mean, Devin Boker would be the obvious one, but if you don't want to be paying 75 million in like a couple of years and you'd prefer like a good player on a more cost control contract, I'd consider it at the very least. To be clear,

I'm talking just Pelicans and Kings. I think Devin Booker might be too good to, but like that contract is what it is and it is cumbersome in its own way, depending on kind of like where you are in your cycle. And honestly, where the suns are in their cycle, it's a bit of a, I don't know, it's a lot of weight to carry around on your cap sheet, that's for sure.

All right, let's flip to the east now. A conference that, you know, I just want to just like kind of talk through and just kind of like bet on certain teams. But ultimately I'm just like washed over by Males. Just there's just not a lot of spice going on here. But the door is open for somebody. Right. And I think naturally you would look to our Cleveland Cavaliers, our team of the season from

the past season, our guy Jared Allen, who just got married and is doing high school musical dances. I don't know if you pulled that out at your wedding. I did not, but congratulations to Jared Allen. We're very happy for him. Did you do any dancing at your wedding, any choreographed dancing? Absolutely not. Justin, I can't think of something I would want to do less than choreographed dancing. That's about at the bottom of the list.

I would want to see you dance, but other than that, yeah. Well, you know what? If and when you get married, I will do a choreograph. at your wedding, if you so choose. Okay, well, there was no chance that I was going to get married, but now there's like a sliver of chance just for that possibility. You got a slice of pie. There you go.

I think the calves are the clear, obvious candidate to just win the conference again. I have to say, I've just been left cold by the postseason performance. I know the Pacers ultimately ended up being something of a team of destiny. But the fact that Daris Garland is compromised and they did have injuries elsewhere on the roster, but still kind of limped out of that second round. series and didn't really have much to show for what was such a triumphant come up over the course of the regular season. I'm just a little, I don't know, I'm just a little dubious at this point, especially considering Garland has the toe surgery, might not be back until, what, November, perhaps.

Toes are tricky and considering the depth that they have on the team now. Maybe they'll pace him back. But I'm just finding it hard, I guess, is we're like piloting ideas here of finding much belief in the Cavs being this, take the conference by the throat team and carry that through the playoffs. They would have to do something we haven't seen them do before. And so it always takes like a bit of imagination to get to that point of like, okay, how do they become the sort of playoff competitor that we saw them be in the regular season? How do they overwhelm in that kind of juggernaut style? And can they do that? Do they have the personnel to do that? Do they have the moving pieces to like tactically evolve over the course of a series? I kind of just don't quite see it.

Especially when you think about where the East is right now, there is a team that has a proven regular season track record that's consistent playoff results. Why would the New York Knicks not be the favorite by default? I like it. I think that's where I'm leaning. That was my inkling last season. And so perhaps I'm just carrying that over. But it's the same team as last year with the depth pieces and perhaps a new voice in order to pace them out through a regular season in order to get to the point where Jalen Brunson isn't on minute. 50,000 by the second round.

Well, and hopefully some of the mechanisms that Mike Brown could install into their offense would not just lighten the minutes load on Jalen Brunton, but some of the creative load, broaden things out, diversify things a little bit. Like, guys like Carl Anthony Towns, McHale Bridges, OGM, OGM, and OB2, they can all do a lot. And you can simplify their roles and streamline them and make them hyper-efficient machines in very particular ways. You can also trust them to do a little bit more than they were really doing, particularly by the end of last season.

I think that's going to be really important in terms of the overall, like, long-term health of the Knicks offense and their ability to stand up series over series-over-series against increasingly difficult competition. I also think Gershon Yabusele could wind up being one of the most important signings of the summer. Not one of the best players, but a good player for a team that was already contending that had fairly limited resources. And to get someone like Gabu-Seli for the taxpayer mid-level is a huge, huge deal. He opens up a lot in terms of the like the rotation. He's shoring up a really critical spot where they just did not have actual forward depth to the point that they just had. Like really their only option was play Josh Hart more in terms of keeping the rotation like playoff solvent. Now you have a guy who is good at the four and the five who gives you another stretch option behind Kat.

If you want to keep stretchy, if it's not a Mitchell Robinson kind of match up, like whatever the situation might be, there's room for Yabu Saleh in the lineup. They didn't have enough of those guys off the bench. you know, like Jordan Clarkson will see, I think is a little bit more, I don't know, a little bit more of a variable in that exact way. I don't know what to expect from him. I'm optimistic. Yabu Saly, I know what to expect because he just fucking showed up for a Sixers team that was going nowhere.

He then, before that showed up for a French national team that was competing at the highest levels in the Olympics. Like, that guy is a gamer and he can play in exactly the way the Knicks need him to play. Yeah, I know it became kind of a running gag toward the end of last regular season where it's Mitchell Robinson, Save Us. because he was their only option off the bench. But once he actually kind of popped in the playoffs, they did seem like a completely different team.

And then as Tibbs started to mind the depths of his bench just to find any sort of minutes, you just saw things kind of ease up a little bit and everything became a little bit easier. And so they actually have a bench. And that's a good starting point. And we saw already the returns of having just a facsimile of that. And I do wonder if this ultimately becomes a brown conversation.

about how much he can find some sort of offense that isn't just like asking the world of both Jalen Brunson and Carlton Towns. What did you feel about that higher to begin? Fine. Yeah. Fine. I mean, the whole situation has been kind of odd where I didn't really get the urgency

to fire Tibbs in the first place. I'm not privy to everything that's going on behind the scenes there by any stretch. So it's like maybe there's just enough rumbling, enough chatter in the locker room, enough loss of faith that something like that felt urgent and necessary. As far as like coaches go, tips for Mike Brown, like they're both two pretty good coaches. Like they both do a pretty good job, generally speaking, with their circumstances.

And so you're getting a little more offensive creativity. But Mike Brown isn't the kind of guy you bring in necessarily expect to transform your team, unless you're the Sacramento Kings with DeMontos a bonus. Like maybe that's enough of a of a precedent to think, okay, given similar personnel, he can achieve dramatically different results. there's not a lot of room for the Knicks to go up in terms of the offensive hierarchy of the league. They're already a very productive regular season offense.

But in terms of the solvency of that offense in the playoffs, I think the Knicks left a lot to be desired. They clearly have a lot to figure out as far as like dealing with all of the machinations of what other teams can throw out you when they really have a chance to key in on your weaknesses and your limitations. And when they really, really know beyond a sliver of a doubt, you're just going to kind of give the ball to Jalen Brunson and let him cook. you want to have something in your back pocket,

some reversal, some other options, some alternative. And I think Mike Brown will do a good job of that, if nothing else. Yeah, Mike Brown came out of the warrior system kind of reborn as something of like a spiritual guru, like a good vibes guy. And I think part of that is just because he is one of the best on Mike vibes guys of the coaching ranks. And I think it kind of gave this to something, especially considering the offense that they played,

that he's a little bit more Steve Kerr, when his. Historically, I think he's much more of a hard-nosed taskmaster, defensive first sort of guy. And I almost wonder if that came to a head when he got ousted from Sacramento when there a report that he and Deere and Fox clashed a little bit. And ultimately, the organization ended up choosing Fox in that regard and ended up getting rid of both of them. And now there is a real like consider the source there to consider. But I almost wonder if we're merging those two versions, if that's not the best for what

the Knicks need because what they, they didn't need a completely different voice. They just needed the same sort of approach, just augmented enough. And it just seemed like Tibbs, for whatever reason, just will not go to that unless he is literally forced to do so, which he was in the postseason. So could they be the same sort of grinder mentality team, but with a little bit more of a structured approach offensively that leverages some more, more of their depth. I can see Brown being that sort of guy. I mean, that would be a huge improvement.

Like, over what the Knicks have kind of had, not just in terms of coaching, but like the identity of the team and the spirit of the team, if they did have some of that at their disposal, I think Mike Brown is that guy. I think if you talk to players, even if you see the occasional, like, practice footage that will leak out in a promotional capacity, like, he is the kind of coach who holds players accountable. Like, he is getting into players. He is warm and fuzzy with the media.

he can, you know, huck it up with the best of them. But like, he is not a pushover as a coach. And so this is a team that I think could use some of that in the same way that they benefited from it with Tibbs. And if they can also get some of everything else that comes with a Mike Brown offense and with a Mike Brown ecosystem, at least in the early stages of it, as we saw in Sacramento, that would be a huge boon. Is there anybody else that's in the mix here that we should talk about? As far as the Eastern Conference goes? Yeah, just a little at the top of the east.

I mean, those feel like the natural two candidates to win the East, specifically in the regular season. In the playoffs, like, I got no clue. You know, like the magic are an enormous variable in many different ways. I think they're a team that at this point, it's kind of a make or break season for the magic. I know they just traded for Desmond Bain, but when you trade basically five picks for a guy, just being frisky in the first round is not really good enough anymore. Like now you are competing for something different. you're raising the level of expectation for this group.

And if the magic don't show some kind of progress, and to be clear, I think they could. I think they could win the East in the regular season. I think they could win the East in terms of going to the finals. Like they have a lot going for them right now. If they don't do that, I think things start heating up really quickly for two people in particular. Jamal Mosley, we just talked about Tibbs,

like good coaches can get fired. And I think Jamal Mosley is a good coach. And I think that there's an outcome to this magic season where it's just not quite good enough and he ends up being let go. Jalen Suggs, if the magic don't deliver, is like a really natural trade candidate for a bunch of different reasons. And so he's a guy who I think you could look at

and say, man, I really hope they bring it together. I really hope he keeps healthy over the course of the season. I love Jalen Suggs and what he brings to this team. But if they need something else, then maybe they need something else. And I think to a lesser extent, basically like the entire supported cast, if you're Anthony Black, if you're Window Carter, if you're Tristan DeSilva or Jet Howard,

like, things could go sideways for you incredibly quickly if you don't have the kind of outcome for this season that the magic might want. And I think that pushing in in the way that they did with Bain brings everything to a head very, very quickly in terms of those expectations. Right. We didn't even talk about Franz Wagner being able to hit maybe two threes a game or Paul Ben Carroll taking the leap that he's expected to. Yes. Franz's jumper at some point it's got a hit, I guess, or we just have to accept that it never will. And things have been trending more in the latter direction than the former. I think there's been stretches where he's

been quite successful, but at absolute best, he's an incredibly streaky shooter. Luckily, he's a great defender. He's a great driver. He's a good playmaker. He has lots of other things going for his game, but he also needs to be able to shoot. And Paolo needs to be able to shoot at least a little bit to make that thing work. And so do you think like the pressure is more on Suggs because of the injury history or because, for instance, his contract is probably a bit more movable than Wagner who's on a max. And so despite some of the concerns, like you actually have to just kind of live with that. I think it is the injury history for sure.

Like if Jalen Suggs just isn't going to be able to stay consistently healthy, it just changes who he is as a player. It changes the way that you think about him from an organizational standpoint. Like how can he be a load bearing member of our team if we just don't know if he's going to be on the floor? It brings me no joy to say that. Like I think Jalen Suggs is awesome. But he's also not Franz Wagner as far as the contributions of what he brings.

and Franz in like I think Paolo is kind of cemented there in his own way I think Franz is basically cemented there as well it'd have to be like something really dramatic happening for you as an organization to look at a player as young and as productive and as promising as Franz Wagner with or without

the three and say that's a guy we should investigate trading like I think he might just be too good for a team that's in the magic's position to really indulge that kind of idea yeah this is going to be a big season in order to test how special Paolo is because he causes so much, like just line up configuration in order to

kind of fit around him. So for instance, if you want him to be your primary ball handler, you probably need also a center in there. Wendell Carter will probably get the first shot at that. Obviously, they'll work in Jonathan Isaac for the 10 minutes a game that he's capable of playing at this point. But then you're sacrificing some supplementary ball handling. If you're presuming to play Suggs and Bain. There's a world in which all these guys do a little bit of everything. It just it seems like though their best lineup would have the center, but you're losing kind of the safety valve of having a more past first point cartius Jones being in reserve there is a prime option. And so I just, I think it's going to cause a lot of tension up front if there are expectations

because I think this is the type of team that needs to like play through some of the mistakes in order to find their best selves. And so do they play more of a point guard first with that lineup and just live with some of the Apollo at center minutes? You can get away with that maybe in crunch time. I don't know. Or do they just force this and just say, Paulo, you're our driving force. You have to be your best self. I think you're right to identify that tension in particular. Palo, because he is neither a four who is super comfortable playing the five. And I don't think has been up to that level defensively, hasn't been up to that level as a rebounder to really make that kind of thing work. he's also not the kind of ultra-versatile forward who's just like a straight point forward, right?

Like he is in that in the middle zone where he does need space to be successful. He does need backline defensive help to be successful. And at the same time, he isn't always as forceful as you might want him to be, I think in part because he hasn't had the room to operate. And so hopefully bringing in Bain helps with that. Hopefully bring in Tyos Jones for, you know, whatever role he's deployed off the bench, helps with some of that. But in those best case lineups, the CrunchTine line up,

the starters, however you want to think about it, he needs to find ways to bridge those sorts of divides where you don't have to make these either or decisions on either side of the rotation around him, where Paolo, as a superstar, is taking a huge step forward and being able to do some of those supplementary things

at an adequate enough level to, okay, now Wendell Carter makes sense as our five. Okay, now Jalen Suggs makes sense as our point guard. There's the inkling of all that, but it just has not fully formed yet. Yeah. The case for the magic, kind of having just a miracle, season, they get the one C, they win the east, would be that they have such a clear identity.

And Bain slides so neatly into that that allows them to carry on while still figuring out some of these things more on the fringes. These become ancillary issues as opposed to frontline ones. And the fact that they're so not only just good defensively, but so physical and Bain just fits that to a T, I wonder if that might actually be the floor razor that gets them through. And that's where it ultimately becomes the Suggs conversation as well, because he is something of like the spiritual totem of this team. And we saw that team kind of fall apart where he wasn't there in the second half of the season. And so if we're talking about trading sugs or diminishing his role in order to make the lineup fit, it just starts getting very difficult at that point. Because to me, like, he kind of is at the very least the shining beacon of who this team thinks it is.

And if we have to play Ties Jones over him, then it's just like, who are we? maybe that's also for the best because then you become Apollo team because he's so good that you have to follow his lead. But I think there's a pathway, I will say, for this team to ultimately get there while not necessarily blowing the doors off of teams in the regular season. Just because there's just so much there in order to solve problems. They really need to avoid the kinds of complications they ran into last seasons with all of these injuries piling up, all of these offsetting absences. And Suggs is a huge part of that. And another way in which you're absolutely right,

like I would want to invest in Jalen Suggs as a culture setter. I want to invest in Jalen Suggs as a basketball player. Do I want to continue to invest in Jalen Suggs as a person with a back and a knee and a hand and a whatever that tends to pick up these injuries that take him out of the lineup? It's a more difficult proposition. And so either the magic are going to get through this season relatively healthy and in one piece, and if so,

I think they're going to be really, really good and really, really competitive against every other team in the East at minimum. If they have those complications again, though, then it forces these harder conversations

because then you're just like not being able to avoid the disastrous outcomes. Yeah. Well, one team that definitely isn't going to be in the mix for the top of the East is the Washington Wizards

who are you sure? I'm not 100% sure. Don't threaten me with a good time here, buddy. This is the point in the pod where Waz would force us to stop because we're on the precipice of talking about the Wizards. But we're going to plow through because this is the summer and Rob and I are having

some fun. I honestly think that the Wizards might be one of my favorite league pass teams. I think they probably are already last year and they've only like kind of compounded upon that where they're now at the point, Rob, where they have nine recent

first round picks up and down their roster. And so if you, loyal listener, saying like, I don't know if I want to sit through the CJ McCollum and Chris Middleton, like, old-timey show. Let me tell you, first of all, they're not going to be playing maybe even half the games next year. But, too, there is so much young stuff to, like, figure out on the fly athletes. Now they actually have shooting in order to compliment some of those athletes.

I was already intrigued. Now I am titillated. I think the titillation is justified. I think as far as League Pass darlings go, they have, the roster is almost broken up into two categories of player, both of which are very important for league pass viewing. One, guys who are just fun to watch Cook. Bob Carrington, Cam Whitmore. Honestly, I throw CJ McCollum into this mix when he's going, incredibly, like, aesthetically

pleasing score to watch. Malachi Branum, a guy who I have, stand maybe strong, supported on this podcast previously, kind of went off a cliff last season. But when he's cooking, an absolute delight to watch. The other category of guy, mystery box plays. who could be literally anything, and I honestly don't know what it is yet. You got your Bilalculabali's,

you got your Alex Sars, obviously, Kishon George, AJ Johnson, just so many mystery boxes to unpack. And so when you had that combination of stuff happening in real time every night, in addition to just like a good core of guys who actually play pretty hard,

why wouldn't they be one of your favorite teams to watch? They also have Trey Johnson, who has that mix of like, just like a smooth shooter, but also an athlete. And so I think he's, He not only will be interesting in his own right, but fits this team. And they also picking up Dylan Jones off the scrap heap, who one of my favorite players,

if only because he's built like a mini Cooper, where you would think someone of that girth would be like a center type, but in fact is more of a wing who is just one of the OKC players. They just couldn't afford to keep because they have so many good players that we're talking about their deep second rounders being interesting at Summer League. it's just like there's just so much to figure out which if I'm a league pass viewer that first and foremost is number one on my checklist number two is the fact that once again they play in the east coast time slot not a lot of sizzle there and so if this is like the amuse bouch perhaps to the the bigger double headers that are going to come in like the 730 p.m. Eastern time zone range I could see it. I mean just really opens up the appetite. I could see us.

watching a lot of the opening 30 minutes to an hour of a Warriors game before the other games click on. And then, yeah, you flip over to the prime time. Yeah, you flip over to that heavyweight bout in the West. But those first quarters, they're going pretty juicy. And I'm, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to be spending a lot of time with the Wizards overall. I'm not going to, I'm not going to limit myself to just that early time slot. I'm going in for the morning synergy dive. You know, like I'm really going to see what's going on with these guys. I'm thrilled to watch them in action in a way that, to be honest, I am not thrilled to watch a lot of Eastern conference teams next season.

Will you watch more first quarters of the Washington Wizards or the Cleveland Cavaliers next year? Oh, good question. Well, here's the thing about the Cavs. If their regular season is anything like this one, the first quarter might be the only competitive part. So if you want to watch the Cavs actually tested, that might be the time to do it. But I take your point.

I think the Cavs weirdly enough, after having such a transformative year, are kind of now right back in the same position they were before, which is like kind of feel like we know who this team is, kind of feel like we know what their strengths and limitations are, where are we going to find the variance in that? Where are we going to find them kind of deviating from the script in a way that's going to make them an even more formidable team? I guess we'll find out, but I'm not sure they have that in them. I don't know what the Wizards have in them. And so from the surprise factor alone, like, how could I not be tuning in for that? Wizard's optimism. That's how we go out on a July 31st podcast. I don't know what the

schedule is from here. I think Group chat might be checking in some time in August. This might be a Waz only show because Rob and I are doing a little vacay. Do you think he's going to do like a couch? I'll know if you want to do together. I'm open and available, Justin. But I would love a Waz style like full cowherd monologue. I mean, I would say segment, but let's just do the whole pod. Let's just do 45 minutes to an hour.

Waz off the dome. Yeah. We might have to then sit through his suspension that arises as a result of it. But you know, we could do that again. We could have a lot more Wizards talk. But be on the look at that. Look out for that sometime in August. And then we'll be back to the flow of things in September.

Until then, have a good summer, everyone. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely on production. Our guy who we should mention in terms of like how we're spending our summer was looking up just random highlight videos of Brad Watermaker before he got onto this pod. So if you're looking forward to what Isaiah is up to, reach out to him on Twitter, ask him, which. random highlight packages he's indulging in these days honestly would love and isaiah like tweet of the day or instagram of the day of just whatever player he's locked in on just just some food for thought you know just some content to put out there in the world um that's it for us we'll talk to you next time