The Ringer NBA Show - What Were We Wrong About Before the Season? | Group Chat (Ep. 345)

Episode Date: November 29, 2018

Kyle Korver to the Jazz (0:40), Luka Doncic owns our hearts (7:30), the Wolves are looking up without Jimmy Butler (17:30), and the Clippers might be a playoff lock (22:08). Plus, we admit the takes we misfired on before the season (35:30). Hosts: Chris Ryan, Haley O’Shaughnessy, Justin Verrier, and Paolo Uggetti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Basketball is very good. Jimmy Butler is actually a good teammate. Sabanis is the most important front court pacer. The aaron Fox is better than Donovan Mitchell. Basketball is very good. Hello, and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It's screw chat. I still don't know the origin of why I do that.

It's great. We'll find out one day. Palo Getty. What's up? Justin Verrier. Young Phlegm checking in. The number one Wilco fan at this table. And Aaliyoshaughness, he's never heard Wilco.

What's up? Thank you. Guys, I can't wait to talk to you. I want to get a little bit... Let's start with the Kyle Corvary. We'll do news at the top. Today we're going to talk a little bit about Luca Donchich, which is kind of like become,

I think my favorite thing about this NBA season. I like that pronunciation. Thank you. Thank you. Shout out to Kyle Mann, whose dime-drop video, showed me the way of the true pronunciation. Can we get a slow-mo of that? We're also going to talk about things that we were wrong about.

in our early season predictions, because we've got about 20 games. We've got a nice little sample size to go against it. Can we talk a little bit about this Corver trade? Yeah. Let's. I think it's useless. Whoa.

Yeah, I just don't think it matters. I think that this is a trade where you got, you feel good about it now, and then, like, they're just going to, people are just going to hunt Core route on picking roles in the playoffs. And I'm a little bit nervous for Utah to have two guys now.

You know, Gobert obviously is a much bigger part of the team than Corver is, and the Corver is just supposed to provide some shooting and some depth. there. But Corver's a liability straight up on defense and Goberra is going to get kind of schemed out on defense in the playoffs. And since they have such high expectations for themselves, there's something about this trade, although they didn't

really give up a ton. It's Alec Berks and two second rounders. I just feel like it's kind of like, you know, deck chairs on the Titanic. I don't think they're expecting Corver to be that much, though. He's not like a side dish. He's like the cranberry. Okay. Oh. Okay. But isn't the cranberry a side dish? Guess who's still eating Thanksgiving?

Left of her. Is the cramory a side dish? Almost just ever. Well, yeah, but it's like not... It's a premieres side dish. Yeah, it just helps everything else out. Okay. They're not expecting him to take over Joe Engel's shots. Yeah. But he's definitely going to add to it.

And they need everything they can get right now. I agree that in the long term, it, like, is useless. But I think in the short term, it gives them like... It gives them, like, some life that they kind of need. I mean, like, they're literally the second worst team in the West right now. Yeah. By record. And a huge part of why their defense hasn't been as good is because they're just not making

shots on the offensive end and instead turning the ball over. So if they can get another guy in there that kind of, can give them a few shots a game, I think that'll go a long way, at least in the short term. Plus, it's really, like, jarring how they're not taking advantage of their good defense when it is good. Like, they'll force a turnover and then nothing will come over on the other end. That is something that with a fast-faced offense, you have Corver running down there. You can give to him and he can make something of that. Yeah. Kevin Pelham had this one stat that according to second spectrum, the Jazz have actually opened up the highest-quality three-point looks in the NBA this season.

But because they have no three-point shooting, and like Alex Burks, not a three-point shooter, was among their best three-point shooters, they just weren't able to take advantage of it. So I guess the glass-aff full look would be that if they have the looks already, that they just get someone in there and they can take advantage of it. Do you have a grander diagnosis for what's going on with this team? I think Paulo hit on it, and he wrote about this on Sunday. It just seems like they're the type of team that needs to out-execute everybody. They don't necessarily have just elite talent across the board.

Donovan is obviously their best offensive player, and he's just been struggling big time. like what do you have 35 points or 35 shots and no assists like you just can't win playing that way and so I do think it has a trickle-down effect if they are executing on offense then they're playing in transition on defense and then their biggest asset is Gobert who can still erase things

but if he's running he's not standing caught out of position yeah yeah so I honestly am pretty hopeful about Utah and I think there are a couple moves like this on the margins like Corver that I think can put them right back in the mix for like the two three seed. I feel like this was like I got to experience what it would have been like if the Sixers are traded for Corver vicariously,

which is not good. I wouldn't have felt good about it. But, you know, that had been a very flimsily sourced rumor that there had been talk about Fultz for Corver. Straight up? Well, I mean, depends on what you ask about the Fultz trade market right now. The Fultz seems weird.

I mean, Bill was like, Bill on his pod with Rissillo yesterday, and I feel like this was just, effort to trigger me was saying Antonio Blakeney and a second to be fair

Arci Diakio Ryan Archie Diakio Antonio I love Ryan Archie Diaco I can't say that name Can you do it Archie Diakno Archie Diakno

He looks a lot like Kirk Heiner Bobby is nodding Yeah he's the pronunciation guy All of the trades that they were throwing out there with the exception maybe of Josh Jackson for Marco Fultz, which is like my trash for your trash, you know? Like, I was basically that this is offensive.

And I just don't know that Corver really changes anything for anyone. I guess he helped out Cleveland, but I don't really know if that's like the kind of move that. Well, wasn't what Philly was struggling with earlier in the season? Didn't Joel talk about how they got rid of all their three-point shooters? Yeah, they could use one. Yeah, Kyle Corver. Guess who gets nuked on for him your defense? and guess he can't play for a murder defense already is Philly.

I don't think he's that bad on defense. I think he's like... I think he tries real hard. He's average and he's so smart that he can like kind of do things. Which is why I think someone like Gobert, having an eraser back there makes a lot of sense for him for a team that he's on. Because he can cover for some of those, like,

he basically warps the floor to the point where he doesn't really even have to cover that much. That's a good point. You're talking me into this. I also think that it's kind of hard to maybe quantify like what this kind of does for a team sometimes. Like I went like I went to the game. when they were in town playing the Lakers. And you could just kind of tell they were like really frustrated about the fact that like they didn't really have an answer for what was happening.

It was just the way they were playing turnovers and the poor defense. Like they didn't really know kind of what to do about it. So something like this maybe like is like a spark in a way. Like maybe just gets them motivated. They just need like a refresh button. No, I agree with Paulo because not to overstate his importance, but Corver just by the way he plays kind of pumps and purpose into an offense. I mean, he's constantly moving.

You know, he's opening up passing lanes for other people. He's taking away defenders. So something like that, like all of a sudden they get on a hot street could really help them out. All right. Well, let's talk a little bit about some of the games last night. Oh, wait, you don't want to talk about Alec Berks? Oh, do you have an Alec first take?

The main takeaway of this trade? Well, he's reunited with Rodney Hood. That's big. I didn't even realize it. Wow. I don't know if that's something that either of those guys were looking forward to. I didn't check. I'm not on Rodney Hood Twitter right now.

But, yeah, do you have an Alec Burke's take? No, but I think this is the last of him. I think that's going to Cleveland. Like he always thinks that the next year is going to be Alex Berks, like breakout year. I always think that. I like Alec Brooks. He's had like a couple of like season-ending shoulder injuries, hasn't he?

He's just been injured. Yeah, he's been injured constantly. He's, yeah. He went to Colorado? Did not know that. I think so, yeah. Wow. I'm like his biographer.

Big traffic. I'm like Ron Chernow of Alec Berks. Yeah. Let's get, let's get serious. Let's talk about something that we all filmed deeply about, passionately about. The unseriousness of the seasons. Last night, the Mavericks beat the Rockets,

it's 128, 108. And Luca has kind of now entered We did the song this week Halla Luca, shout out to Isaac and Jason Gallagher Just like an absolute masterpiece of So good. But he is now kind of like Drifted into this zone for me

Where I'll watch him no matter who he's playing against And no matter what the score is And that's a kind of really special type of player There's not a ton of them There hasn't been a ton of them Because you have to have a kind of magic to you And I guess I actually literally mean like A certain Magic Johnson magic to you.

Because part of what really excites me about a player is court vision. There's like the ability to kind of change the physics and the dimensions of the court based on like his field of passing. And that keeps you as a viewer really stimulated because you never know when like a crazy pocket pass or a cross-court bounce pass or a no look pass is going to come. And you kind of just get into watching plays unfold that way no matter what the score is. And players who can kind of change the way the game looks. feels are always really exciting in that way.

And Luca is kind of entering into that zone right now. And he has a certain effervescence and cockiness of the way he plays that's really different and really, really exciting. And you can kind of see him like last night going up against Hardin. Hardin was basically playing his looper. He was basically playing like a younger,

slightly cagier version of himself. And it was fascinating to watch. I mean, we haven't really talked about him yet on this pod since really early in the season. What are some of you guys' feelings about him right now? I think that I go back to when we were talking a few ponds ago about what makes a league pass team. And I remember saying that I really need somebody,

like for their lead ball handler to have a guard, basically somebody who hands the ball at who kind of creates that excitement. And I think, like Luca perfectly fits that. Bill, like he has kind of, like you said, that magic that we see in stuff, that gets us excited about stuff. And I think it's also just kind of the, allure of the unknown in a way

of not knowing what he's going to do necessarily not knowing what he could do with him it's more so because he's a rookie still and he's playing to the level of all-star level almost so like the combination of like Hardin's game with like Curry's excitement if you will makes for like a really special combo yeah and I think the third line there is just if we want things that are unexpected it's like

it's more exciting when it comes from someone that is like more of an underdog more physically oftentimes like sick Like Jeremy Lynn, too. Like, you know, that was like, that is kind of like the, not quite the level of excitement, but it had that kind of unexpected, like. Or even like an Iverson.

Sure. Like I look at his personality and it's very like Iverson-S, but he doesn't look like an athlete and he's just getting where he wants to go. And that's just, he does, he makes improbable things happen. And like, that's basically what you're looking at. No, Steph's one of those guys, Ben Simmons is one of those guys for me at his best when, when he's playing like with a lot of confidence. When he's playing with a ton of confidence, you just watch Ben's,

Benz Simmons play in like an empty gym, basically. I think there's two type of athletes that, when they're rookies, at least, we're trying to figure out their games and see what they play, how they play. There's two types of players that really dazzle us, guards anyway. There's the ones that are, like, so powerful, kind of like Donovan last year. Russ, yeah. Russ, where they bustle through ways that they shouldn't. They get places they shouldn't. They dominate other sizes that they shouldn't, you know.

And then there's guys like Luca who kind of like fold the space on a court and all. already know to do things that players don't know how to do until they're like veterans. And that's what's actually been fun for me is like seeing him do this against veterans. Like you'll see like, you know, when they do the instant replays and like he's ball faking underneath and you'll see vets like actually look that way and be totally faked out. And to see that so early on from a player like this is really fun. He also has this thing that Steph does a lot where Steph kind of like really popularized, which is essentially taking the flourishes of basketball and making it like in a core part of your game.

You know what I mean? Like Steph extending the court the way he does with his shooting and dipping under people and kind of just like making his center of gravity so low. But especially with the way in which he extended the floor on offense, it's supposed to be something that you do like once every 100 processions or once every 200 possessions, but he does it with like once every five. And Luca has a certain almost carelessness with the ball, but the carelessness is like considered.

It's like I'm trying to get you to look at. at me going around the back randomly because that's just going to distract you and it's going to distract your help guy and it's going to make it everything around us kind of like unbalanced, but I get it when it's unbalanced. And it's kind of, yeah, it's crafty, but he's like five inches taller and crafty. Right. Yeah, he plays like a veteran. And I think it's really important that he's playing on a veteran team.

Like he's not like Trey Young kind of hidden in Atlanta basically toiling and like trying to outscore opponents just to even get into a game. Like they're 10 and 9 right now and he's a big part of it. And the fact that they're able to compete right away, it kind of almost makes his performances more impressive. Because he's not just doing this in garbage time. He's basically leading a winning team. And he's doing it without Dirk.

Not that Dirk is necessarily going to pour it on when he comes back in. But, I mean, it is interesting that he's had this kind of wide berth to almost take the team over. You know what I mean? Because D'Andre is essentially a rental. Not, you know, maybe they'll keep him. But I don't think they should, really. Wesley Matthews is on his last life. Like, literally.

You know, it's basically DSJ and Lucas team. And Berea, who will live forever and always be on the magic and fabrics until I die. Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't really thought of it that way, but it's interesting to think about what they will do next. Because even if the best case in area for the season is what they sneak in as A. C, it would be fine because we get Luca in the playoffs. But then what happens as that?

Like, which are the veterans they keep around? And, like, technically, they should be tanking to get another player just as good to pair with Luca. I don't think Dennis Smith Jr. is the second best player on a team like that. But I also don't think that they're upset with thriving under, like, Luca, right now. I think Mark Cubans had enough of tanking. Yeah. But it's like a weird, like, limbo. He did it for, like, kind of has to.

Yeah, and they gave their pick away for the trade. Oh, right. Yeah. And so, I mean, I guess it's interesting because they're kind of doing what, like, the clippers and some of these other teams are doing are trying to bridge the gap. They're not trying to go full tank. They're trying to, like, and I think it might be to Luke's benefit. We get to see him play through, like, just early bumps.

and I wonder if they come out of this two years from now with Capspace and the first thing to actually sell to free agents besides just like come hang out in my really polished like locker room with all these fast screens in it but the thing is about their locker room and I have no evidence towards this

but remember when he took over the team he like revolutionized their locker room and it was like there's an Xbox in every every stall but like what if it's still that? I was like two years ago it's pretty dog shit yeah and it's like 1999 cool Yeah.

You literally have to pass through office space, like people at their desk in cubicles in order to get to the actual locker room, which is not like anything in the NBA. That's awesome. It's like, check it out, bro. I got like a projection machine and I have like pay-per-view.

So like if there's any like fights you want to order up, we got those. The new VHSs. The one thing other than I would say about Luca, you know, is we haven't, none of us, I don't think have mentioned a number yet. And, you know, I think that that obviously, is it's become a language of itself

is just to talk about it, whether it's the advanced analytics or just the box score stats of the player. But I kind of, it was an afterthought to see what Luca, Luca's stats were last night. Do you know what I mean? I think it was 20 and six boards and two assists,

but it was like, oh yeah, and he did get 20, didn't he? It was more of the highlights. It was him trying the scoop layup and getting that foul on Hardin or like taking those like outrageous threes like weird moments. From the corner.

Yeah. I don't know. It's like, it's so, that's kind of fascinating. I also think it's like, he seems like an interesting evolutionary step in the Euro to NBA transfer where he kind of reminds me a manu a little bit where it's like, I don't think that he's changing his game. He's making the NBA change their, it's game to him. You know, like he still has, he looks exactly like he looked on Madrid. Like he's playing in that same kind of like really devil may care way that.

I think sometimes other European players get that beaten out of them a little bit, like Rubio. even, like, can still make incredible passes, but has almost had to develop, like, a suit of armor to play. I don't know. Is that just because where the league is going, though? Maybe. It helps that everyone's playing fast, so, like, all these turnovers don't really matter.

I wonder if it's also that he's able to shoot. Yeah, there's that, too. His two biggest, like, assets on offense are his creation and shooting. So it really goes with, like, what you're looking for from that place. And, like you said before, like, there's no Dirk on the court to really take away. And Dirk does become, like, his own. weird center of gravity when he plays because he's like standing there on the nail and they're kind of like running everything around him and he can either pass out of it or whatever. And Harry Barnes is not going to take shots.

No. No. I want to talk a little bit about the wolves because I don't think we've really chatted about them too much since the Butler trade. And what's her record since then? I think they've returned to 500. And they've won something like four in a row, right? So right now they're 11-11. Make a wish

What is that? Wait what? Could you do a segment Like when you Googles? Like when it's You don't know what 1111 Make a Wishes? No.

What? Okay. You know, you didn't even ever heard of Wokeau. Step in my office. That changed the generational divide right there. I'll tell you something about millennials. Okay.

They have won four straight. Seven. Not great opponents. Right. Nets. I mean, beats the guys you have. Nets are fine, bulls, calves.

Spurs. But they whooped the Spurs last night. They crashed the spurs. It was not, yeah, Megan Schuster was texting me like, why do I love Robert Covington so much? And like, she was using a lot of caps. I'm happy to explain it. I'm happy to tell you that he is exactly the player that they needed. He's just exactly the player they need. He immediately makes their team

defense better. I don't know if you guys saw this video. I think it was from a couple of days ago, but it was Covington standing in the scrum in front of towns and like pretending to be a reporter. And he goes, classic one. How come,

he goes, hey Carl, like, how come Robert Covington always bails you out on defense? And Towns, like,

cracked up and Covington cracked up. And I was like, imagine this six weeks ago and Jimmy Butler being like, hey, motherfucker! How come I always

have to bail you out on defense? I'm going to steal your car. Right. Exactly. Do this Scott Layton calls Jimmy at night now? Like,

uses one of those voice changers like, you need me. You need me to win. Well, look, they're probably not going to make the playoffs, but maybe they will. But this is just such an immediately more entertaining team. More fluid. Yeah, more fluid team.

And they became exactly what the Sixers lost, which is deeper immediately. Because you see Rose and a Kogi coming off the bench now. And the Sixers are struggling with their, they have a great starting five. And then they're playing Shamit and these guys off the bench. Like that transfer of rotational guys to Minnesota and the sort of. and this sort of, okay, it's towns and down, like there's now a pyramid. It just seems to have made a complete, like, so much more sense. Yeah, the whole trade to me is fascinating because of what you're talking about,

just like the hierarchy of offenses and just like five guys versus three, like, amazing guys. And it seems really hard to put together a functioning offense in, like, in a league where, like, teams like the Warriors exist and teams that are coming up from, like, the dregs of the league, like the kings have, like, four or five guys that can shoot and they can play offense, trying to do it with three guys, and especially for the Sixers, like three guys,

two of whom, like can't really shoot. Yeah. It just seems like they leaned into towns as the number one guy, and we'll see if that works out long term, but for now, it's just at least more fun

and at least more exciting and, like, everyone seems to be playing better as a result, except for Wiggins. They look happy. They look at them playing happy. I think a pyramid concept is interesting because I look at some team like the Grizzlies, for example,

where you know what the hierarchy is. Like all the guys around Cassau and Conley know that the hierarchy is that. And now that the team can actually make Towns, the peak of that pyramid, it flows from there. And I think it makes for a better kind of team environment. And, you know, maybe not as high as ceiling right now, but at least a, I don't know, a stabilizing force. I mean, Towns doesn't have to have 25 and 20 a night, though, if he's playing happy. And he can have a night like last night where he has, what, 16 and 11. and they get these incredible, like, battery in the back performances from guys like a Kogi.

He was, like, well, you're like 12 in, like, eight minutes or something. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, they can get a charge performance with 10 points in 17 minutes. Like, they're getting, like, efficient, like, impactful performances from all over the roster. They, they, I don't think that they have the talent right now to go up against the upper tier of that Western conference. But I don't really even know what the upper tier of the Western Conference is anymore. Right.

Right. It's the Warriors and then what else? I don't know. It's fluctuating so much. And even the Warriors right now have an asterisk next to them. Yeah, exactly. But like it's so, I mean, that's a whole other conversation about the West as a whole. But any team that gets on a run could end up in the second seat, but like after a week. So it's kind of whoever has the more streaks in the end, I guess. It comes down to Wiggins. If you're going to get rid of like one of your big three, the two have to step into it. And while Towns has done a pretty reasonably good job of kind of asserting himself,

since Butler's been out, like Wiggins has just been a mess. Wiggins' trade value right now is very confusing to me. He's just lucky that John Wall exists because otherwise he'd be the worst contract in the NBA. I was just going to start talking about Wiggins for Fultz, but I'm not going to talk about that. That would be... That would be good for Minnesota because then they have room. Yeah. It's interesting.

I don't think Andrew Wiggins wants to go back and play with Jimmy Butler again anyway, so we can pick that off the board. Wasn't Wiggins the guy that they originally were supposed to tank for that year? The Philly was? I think that's who everybody I mean he was supposed to be the like Nick's LeBron He was the false of that year He was like this is the consensus number one pick

You should just get Wiggins I mean I wanted to talk a little bit about how weird this Western Conference is though out of Minnesota And you know We're still 22, 23 games in 20 games in in in some cases You know the Warriors I'm only

Clippers have only played 20 But it's just What's real here? Like what's up and what's down Like we're gonna see We're going to see the kings and the clippers are going to play tonight. It's one of the most entertaining matchups of the season so far. You know, like two of the most interesting teams in some ways.

I think the best would do you disagree with that? No, I agree. Of course he agrees. I agree. What are you talking about? Sorry, I was like waiting. I couldn't tell if you were like doing the bit you were doing earlier. When nothing matters.

I was like, so I was doing this thing earlier where I got in and I was like, I'm so excited for Warriors, Raptors, and it was immediately informed that Draymond and stuff were both not playing. And I was like, well, you guys just let me know let me know when I should watch basketball. Let me know when it counts. When summer league's over. When you guys want to play on back to back.

Chris is like, I'm just going to go rewatch a little drummer girl again. Well, let's just go home and watch first reformed then? I mean, like, what is my life? I haven't watched either, so you can let me know how about that. I mean, yeah, it's like, so the rockets are in next to last place, not the Jats, they're tied with the Jats. And they're five games behind the

one seat. Like, what is that? Shout out to the Sons for just being what we thought they were. Thank you. I think the best way to do this is like, who are the teams we're sure about? Okay, let's do it. Sure. I would say, thank you, Bob.

Golden State, for sure. Check. I think Denver has proved enough. There are plus eight point differential? When we say for sure, are we saying for sure in the playoffs? Yeah. Okay. Like, I know that these are legit.

And you can also say this is who they are. You know? Okay. Sure. Sure. Okay. Go. O KC, I think, is in there too.

So that's three playoff teams right there. That's it. So we're going to have a Western Conference playoffs with three teams. Just let me know when the Western Conference playoffs starts. And when the first two teams beat one another so that they can play the Warriors. I would have put the Blazers in there. I would too. Maybe.

I honestly think I would put the Clippers in there. Because I just think that they're not barring some crazy injuries. And even with some injuries, they're so deep. that they're just going to be in games all the time that even at the worst kiss and error they fall off a cliff like they might still be their seventh, 80. The clippers are

a band of the most reliable fourth, fifth, and sixth men just all put together. Yeah, I mean, Ryan and Bill were talking about them and they were actually like legitimately firing me up about just about like the amount of guys where it's like the perfect mix for Doc of a couple of young guys with all the guys he can trust. A couple of guys

playing in contract years. A couple of guys who were like nobody believes in me, you know. And then enough dudes who are so psychotically competitive that they're kind of going to stick around on every game. Because if they have Montrez and Patrick every night. It's going to be hard to be like, we're just going to get, nothing against the Spurs who everybody knows is like a really incredible organization. I don't see the clippers getting like stomped out by the wolves like that.

They have too much energy. Right. They can out energy every team. Yeah, I do think they found guys. who, like, the league had kind of soured on for whatever reason. Gallo. Yeah. Tobias even was kind of like playing in obscurity. Gortat is playing meaningful minutes, and they gave him away for Austin who was, I mean, regardless

of what we always like bag on Austin about, like, he's a wing and like teams love wings. Yeah. So they have a lot of that. And I think it's fair to say that Austin does not bring like harmonious locker room energy with him. I mean, I don't think either of those places were his fault, but clearly he's not the guy who transforms the locker room and makes it into like a happy, fun place to work.

Yeah, and I mean, this locker room could have flipped the other way considering like how deep they are at literally every position. It still could. Everyone is like playing for minutes every night to the point where like Bobon will play one night and not play for like five. Yeah. Or Harrell will like pop one one game and then like Gortot doesn't play. And that's when I think Doc's coaching comes into play and it's been impressive

so far. Like last night he started Boban because he knew he could get the rerouting advantage on the Sons. And he, I think Bobin had like eight offensive reruns in the first quarter or something like it. Like, it was a crazy number. And then it changed the game completely. So he just has a lot of options within that team.

And I think that's going to keep them in the season. It's going to make them an amazing regular season team. It's interesting to go back to what you're saying, though, about the Timberwolves Sixers trade and changing a team from a big two or three to a big eight or a medium-sized date, you know? And how much success teams like that are having this season? Right. How much success you see a team like New Orleans is.

Utah who both have like really obvious focal points for their offense, you know, and they're, they're kind of struggling a little bit, although I think that a lot of has just like stop, start beginning the season stuff. But then you look at somebody like, I don't know, even even the nuggets are a good example of Yokic is more of as much a facilitator as anything else. And on any given night, it might be Jamal Murray, it might be this guy, might be that guy. Yeah, they have Paul. Like, you'll name their big green and then the ear, yeah, they have being really bad with them. Yeah, they will Barton. And the Clippers are, then the Clippers are the the absolutely like the

the rafters are like that even though they have obvious stars right I mean is this kind of a response to these ideas that we've been kicking around about rest and the ideas about like what do you what do you need in a regular season like this?

Yeah I mean the old adage was that like your depth doesn't really matter in the playoffs because rotations will shorten and like all your star players will play more and so stars matter more but I think there is something to be said about like a team almost figuring out like the hockey wave strategy.

If you're just playing like league average to a league above average dudes like all the time, then like you're not losing some of those like you're not punting minutes. Yeah. So I don't know long term if it's a strategy. I still think even in the regular season like talent went out, but it is interesting to watch. I mean, the Thunder have even figured that out to some extent. I mean, this is the whole thing when Russ's MVP season was the absolutely like criminal off on numbers that he had. I mean, regardless of his efficiency, it would just be.

basically be watch every night and it's like can they live through rust being out? Yeah. And it was like, no, they could not. We saw this in shorter stints with just the idea of staggering your stars. Like, just the fact that like there's always going to be an all star on the court. And the warriors take it to an extreme. But if the clippers have Lou Williams and it gives way to Tobias, who gives way to some of these other guys, like there's really no drop off there.

To say nothing in the fact that they may have the second best rookie in this class. That's what I was going to say. It also helps when your rookies starting and giving you like really valuable. minutes. But I think the other side of that is the Rockets. And they don't have that kind of second unit to come in and, like, I mean, they like got rid of it. Yeah, exactly.

So they're playing like Isaiah Hartnstein and like Gary Clark. And it's like that's not going to work in the regular season. Can we go back in time for a second? And can anybody at this table explain to me why they got rid of Mbaumute and Areza? Well, we asked, Sean, you on Slack Off Line, I said like, where do you think that they would be if they would have just carried over their team? Yeah. And he was like, well, if everything had been happening, if Gordon had been cold and

Paul had gotten suspended. He was like maybe like two or three games. I just think you need some stability carrying over. And Paulo, you wrote that article in the Blazers and why it's easy to have faith in them because they have carried over. With the Rockets, you can't carry over and only keep your top heavy guys when for two seasons, what's been so good about you is that you have like this insane on deck, like load of three point shooters and guys who can threaten you from every area. Like that was the identity of your team. and then slowly they've all been traded away

or have left and free agency and you like try to replace them with a bunch of guys right now who are playing a lot of minutes but not for the right reasons. It's a bummer because like Areas is on the Sunson and he was there last night playing the clippers and he's like not he's not adding anything. They'll deal him. Yeah, they'll deal him.

But it's a bummer that he's not a contending team right now because you know he could be helpful to the Rockets again. Right. But he's just there. He's getting his money. Like at the end of the day like that's fine. You know. You don't wear those cool jerseys.

I don't think they would be this bad the Rockets, but I don't know if they'd be like still number two, number one in the West. Just because like Arisa, even on his best days, is a really poor shooter who can stretch the floor can at least be like a threat from three and defend a little bit.

But Mbamonte has been out like pretty much every game. Yeah. I think they actually dodged a bullet with Mbamute. Their problem is just doubling down on Chris and Hardin and just becoming that big three team without finding these guys to replace them. Yeah, and Gordon not being the three. Right.

Right. They really took some risks with the guys that they backloaded their roster with. Obviously, Mello, but like even Michael Carter Williams. And it was like, it seemed like the sort of thing where it's like, oh, Darrymori strikes again. He's going to find the best out of these guys. But really, he's whipped on all of them. I think I was under the impression that a lot of this stuff was because he was thinking five steps

ahead and thought he was going to get Butler or thought he was going to get somebody. Like, he was going to do what Elton Brand did, which is essentially be ready to pounce the second another star is upset, you know, and whether that was maybe they wanted to get a with Paul George or they thought they had a shout at LeBron or whatever it was that was going through his mind, it just doesn't seem to have worked out as of yet. I want to, we're going to take a break in a second. I do want to do the same exercise that we just did in the Western Conference with the Eastern Conference really quickly, which looks a little bit more like what we thought and we're going to talk about what we were

wrong about in a few minutes. I've got to go back to the West for a while. Let's go through the Eastern Conference. We're sure about Toronto, obviously. The Bucks are the Bucks. The Sixers, that point differential is starting to get under my skin a little bit, but it is what it is. The Pacers play hard every night

are getting meaningful contributions all over their team or just a really well-drilled team. The Pistons. This is happening? Blake. I believe it's Blake. I still don't have faith

that this won't fall off. I think it'll fall off, but the east is so bad on the bottom end of it that it won't matter. They'll get the seventh or eight seed. Yeah, but it's like bad now with like decent teams.

Like do you know what I mean? Like now the Wizards are below them, the nets are below them. The heat are below them. And those, well, those aren't. good teams right now. They're teams with people. It's not like they're playing

the Phoenix. You know what I mean? Like they have the ability and we've seen it before and they have the talent but I'm not sure. This was always by case for the Pistons. It's just like their C to B minus level basketball. It's better than the D to F that's the rest of the conference. Yeah and like I was watching their game against the Suns

on Sunday. Wow. Distant Sons on a Sunday. And Blake wasn't even playing particularly well But he just has such an effect on the court that I think he can just like do his thing where he just... Wait, you were watching a Pistons Sun's game without Blake Griffin? No, he was playing, but he wasn't playing particularly well. And this was like a Sunday at like 1 o'clock. Just that little window into my life.

A little Sunday brunch basketball for you. I love it. But like he could just pound on like inferior opponents and that's basically the story of his career. And I think that's enough to be where they are by the, where they are now by the time of... He also just seems like, pleased to be away from the, I guess, spotlight, if you want to call the Kilbers of Spotlight, that was the Lopsidy

era and, like, Chris Ball and all that. Maybe the better exercise for the Eastern Conference is who's the eight seed? I think so, too. I do think these are the teams. Yeah. Do you think the magic are going to make the playoffs? I think the magic have just the good as shot as the Wizards, and the Wizards are the only one that will push them. You don't think Miami's going to get hot?

I think the Nets would have pushed them if Levert wouldn't have gotten hurt. Isn't Leverd expected to come back this? Yeah, but... In like two months. They might be too far out by the time he does. Yeah. The heat are sad. I will say that. I can't believe that this is going to be

the Eastern Conference playoffs. I mean, like, that is eyeball-shattering. Let's go magic. Let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and we come back. Well, we're going to talk a little bit about what we were wrong about. Today's episode of the Ringer NBA show

is brought to you by Microsoft Surface. Thank you to Microsoft Surface for being a sponsor of the show. If you need a device that helps you get stuff done, but is also perfect for when you want to catch up on some funds like streaming live sports, A.K. Basketball. Or checking in on your fantasy team, like your fantasy basketball team,

check out the latest member of the Microsoft Surface family, the new Surface Pro 6. Just take the keyboard off and use it like a tablet or snap it back on and use it like a laptop with up to 13 and a half hours of battery life and the new 8th-gen Intel Core processor. It's everything you love about the Surface Pro now even more powerful.

Today's episode of Ringer MBA show is brought to you by Dark Sacred Night, The number one new bestseller from author Michael Connolly, veteran detective Harry Bosch, partners with Renee Ballard, who works for the LAPD's Nightbeat to solve the brutal murder of a teen runaway. The case unfolds with a furious momentum, and according to the Wall Street Journal, Dark Sacred Night is one of the best and most affecting Bosch novels since Conley began. Dark Sacred Night is Conley's 21st Harry Bosch novel, as well as his second novel to feature Detective Renee Ballard, who first appeared in last summer's bestseller The Late Show,

Titus Welliver, star of Amazon's hit TV drama, Bosch, reads the audiobook edition of Dark Sacred Night, with an appearance from the actress Christine Lakin as Renee Ballard on the audio edition as well. Don't miss the novel that the Washington Post describes as darkly brilliant. Listen to the audiobook or pick up your copy of Dark Sacred Night from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or wherever you get books. Go to Michael Connolly, M-I-C-H-A-E-L-L-L-L-Y-L-L-L-Y.com to learn more. Welcome back to group chat. This is a podcast about accountability. So I think it's worthwhile to go back through some of our early season predictions now that we're about 20 some games into the season.

And just talk a little bit about what we were wrong about. I'll go first. Okay. It's big of you. Thank you. So maybe like a weekend or two weeks in the season, somebody tweeted, what teams are we even sure about in the Western Conference that won't make the playoffs? Somebody tweeted that at you or they just sent it out?

At random, but I mean, aren't all tweets really. at me. Sure. We're all part of the same conversation which is what's beautiful about Twitter. So I tweet it back

Phoenix, the Kings and Memphis. You're sure they suck. Basically, like, who are we sure won't be in the playoffs? Oh, Phoenix Kings and Memphis. Yes.

Okay. Memphis. I'm sorry. I mean Memphis. Charing Jackson Jr., I'm sorry. Marcus All, I'm sorry. Conley, I'm sorry.

The girl who tweets to me every single time after a win. I'm sorry. J.B. Chris Vernon. I'm sorry. The genre of the blues. The old street. Okay, yeah. It was wrong. Geez.

What do you like about them? Do you like watching them? See, I think that that's the problem. So last year it was really hard to watch them. When a team's not at full strength and they play the way that they play, really hard to watch them. Really hard to get into them. But I love watching JJJ. he's a lot of fun. It's fun to say too.

I think I like Triple J better. That's way better. I mean, I mean, sounds like a cool. I love watching Triple J. I like that. Yeah.

You know, it's easy to forget how masterful, I guess is the word it is to watch Conley. And Gassal's having a great season. Yeah, Conley is just like one of those things

where I'm sure at some point he will have an injury that completely wipes him out. I think in my mind, that's why I was like, okay, well. But every time he comes back now, you're still like,

God damn, that guy is just amazing basketball. So good. I love watching him. Gassol is on another level. I think he's already dealing with some sort of injury. He has a foot injury right now.

But like on both ends. Maybe that's a sympathy injury for his brother though. Powell had this stress fracture. Oh, did he really? Oh, man, I missed that. RIP POW. But Casal is like, I think he's like a top five two-way player this season, which is incredible. And Jackson is probably the third best rookie, I think.

I think there's also... There's a very interesting argument between SGA and Jackson. I think in terms of like two-way impact, Jackson might be better. Atten right now. Then Aten? I'm saying Luka. SGA. And then Triple J.

Triple J. and you're saying Aitin. Well, see, Aiton has the numbers. I don't care. Like the team sucks. It goes to. I guess so. So you think Aiton's going to win

Rookie of the Year? No, I think Luka will, but I think Aiton will probably come in second because he's just going to put up stats. Even though his defense is really bad. But what I'm saying is I think Jackson overall has been second to Luka. I do think it's unfair sometimes,

though, like the way, for some reason I find it unfair the way he's getting like, he's getting like the hardened treatment from a couple years ago where people are putting up like ate and getting cooked videos a lot. I think that's true at the same time. He's averaging like lower than a block of game

which is incredible for a man that's like just giant and just has to stand there and just do this. I'm waving my arms to the people at home. Really good for him. Haley, so you were wrong about Memphis. Yes, I was wrong. I'm really sorry. You don't really have to apologize. You can just say like I was wrong.

You know what? Twitter makes me. me feel like I have to apologize. I don't want to look at Twitter that much. Justin, who are you wrong about? So mine's an obvious one.

I kept very hard for the Utah Jazz earlier this season. I definitely put something in a group post we did where it was like, aren't the Jazz going to be second in the West, not even asking the question, just assuming it?

And I still have hope as we can circle back to their early segment. One of these teams is going to do the second half of the season thing where they win like 15 out of 20. Oh, we should pick that. Yeah. So I'm not selling all that stock yet.

No, but they are struggling, and they do look worse on defense, which is like the big red flag, if there is one. Isn't everybody doing worse on defense, though? Like, isn't that, like, almost like, I'm not even talking numerically. I just feel like, isn't everybody trying to adjust

to, like, the shooting coming from everywhere? Like, the call is coming from inside the house. Yeah, for sure. I wonder if that's where a lot of, like, some of the offensive issues we're seeing with certain teams are, too, just because the floor is almost like, It's different now. Yeah.

Yeah. I was talking, this is just random, but I was talking with Danny Schau yesterday about like a bunch of stars shooting poorly from three. And I do wonder of the fact that like because there's so much more perimeter defense

that it's harder to get off a perimeter shot. So a guy like, I don't know, Kevin Durant is shooting worse from three because there's just more people. Yeah. Yeah. And you've got more guys probably in the last two seasons say

who are being moved into positions where we're like, okay, we're going to make, we're going to play small, but for perimeter guys, I think that you're seeing more bodies like Covington out on the perimeter. You're seeing more bodies like even a Miles Turner

or somebody like that, like standing out a little bit farther from the hoop. And if they're guarding against the three, if they're running people off the line a little bit more, yeah, you're right. Part of adjusting to the movement of three-pointers is learning how to defend them from all positions in all heights.

Absolutely. Closing out on like a live ball, like on the perimeter is like incredibly tough because you're literally like probably running from the baseline line and then trying to stop without like overshooting them so they could just like go by you and still like try to get your arm up. It's like fucking incredibly. Well, this is the whole Billy Donovan thing that I think we talked about a couple of weeks ago where he was just, it almost sounded as if it took him several, he was like, I mean,

it definitely took him several seasons to get used to the NBA or whatever, but he was talking about like it takes a little while to understand how hard it is to defend the three point shooting at this volume and to spread your defense out like that. and then almost basically be like then take the layup. You know what I mean? Like we'd rather trade you the layup than watch you put up 15 points in six minutes

or in three minutes or something and just blow us out of a quarter because you got hot from behind the arc. You know what I mean? And maybe teams are sort of adjusting to that on an individual basis like you're saying. Yeah. For me, I was kind of into the fact

that I thought the wizards could be interesting and instead they become literally one of the most dysfunctional teams we've had in recent history. Granted, there's still one and a half games out of a playoff spot, which tells you all you need to know about the East. But yeah, no, I was kind of into the idea of, you know, I just think I liked Riley Beale's game so much that I thought that he would kind of set the tone for them this season,

but obviously not the case. Well, I think that they're way better than their chemistry is, obviously. I did not expect them to kind of claw their way back towards respectability a little bit, even though they're not like on any given night, they could just fall apart like they did the other night. And Beal was talking about, like,

we just kind of regressed to all of our old bad habits. Yeah, and Otto Porter is just lost right now. I thought he was in the midst of like kind of upswing because he had one game where he had 14 rebounds. He had a few good scoring games. Last night, he was just a non-entity. And I was watching that game for a little bit. And it's just he just doesn't really show up on the court,

like usually ever when you're watching. Would you do Porter for Wiggins? That's what I was just going to ask. We were talking about that on Slack, I think a couple of days ago. And Sean was like, I love a my mistake for your mistake trade. I think that was the deal that they were talking about.

I wouldn't do it for the Wizards because I think Wiggins would somehow make their chemistry even worse. I would love it for the wolves. I would love it for the wolves. More of a green light, yeah. Yeah. And also just I think he probably is somebody who would maybe thrive in a situation where he was like, I'm one of seven or eight guys rather than like I was supposed to be the three. Yeah.

Yeah. But my coach somehow doesn't trust me or whatever, you know. He's basically Covington. He's not as good as on defense. he's not as good of a shooter most nights, but he's basically that. I would love to see him go to Pelicans. Like, I think the Pelicans still need some wing guys.

Although he's more of a four now, I think he could do a lot in that lineup. Yeah. Like I said, he's still 25. What about you? I was wrong about the Lakers. Okay. I mean, I kind of feel stupid about this

because I was like, I was basically essentially wrong about LeBron, you know? And I wasn't like on some Skip Bayless shit where I was just like the fake king and his tin crown or anything, but I definitely was like this is a different period of his life I think that we'll have

we're just seeing the same thing that happens every season for LeBron which is like a kind of slow start that then eventually he gets into fighting shape and gets his team playing the way he wants him to play him and it just so happens that it's happened after 20 games rather than about 35, 40 games this year and they just look like they can beat a team like they don't look like they're going to win the championship

but I think that I just somehow even after working in basketball for 10 years, underestimated LeBron James. I don't think you're underestimating him. I think that we're all waiting for this moment when eventually time catches up to him. And honestly, that still could happen the season, Chris, because he's turned it on so early.

Like, Paula, you wrote about that one night. Like, that still could become, like, your prediction could eventually come full circle and so good years with the jazz. There's still time for those two. They're still an up and down team, but I don't think I, and I think that they have,

done, they've done a little bit of what Minnesota has done, which is they beat the teams that are worse than them. And they've gotten a couple, they've gotten a couple of really necessary Ws by beating up on Atlanta, beating up on a Kings who are good, but are not that good yet. And I think that I just, I was just

like, they're not going to make the playoffs. That was kind of like my sneaking suspicion. And now I think that they're probably a lock to make the playoffs. We didn't mention them earlier. As long as LeBron plays at this level. I think they are where like the consensus almost like bore out. Like I know some people are super high and some people were like as low as saying they're not going to make the

playoffs. But this feels right. I don't know. 11 and 9 minus point two point differential. And like they had that stretch of what was it seven of eight. And now they lost two games in row. Like they got blown off the floor in Denver last night. I just think like the type of team that like yeah, LeBron can win some games. But overall they're like still pretty mediocre. And that feels right to me. So I guess then that my follow up question is is like, are we not talking about that enough? Because usually we would be really like LeBron being on a mediocre basketball team would be something that we talked about all the

time. I feel like we're way more captivated by a couple of different things happening in the league right now. But is that just because most of us just assume at some point they'll either make a deal or we'll get even better. We'll just write the shit. I think it's twofold. I think it's one, it's the fact that

the tone of this season is completely different because it doesn't have that same kind of demand or rush. It feels experimental around. that the other seasons in Cleveland had, whereas, like, this needs to be a title, you know? I think that has helped in terms of, like, us not talking about it. And I think, like you said, the deal that's coming.

Like, I'm very excited to see kind of what is it that they do in terms of the trade deadline. They have to do something. I mean, the low-key story right now that's starting to be talked about more is how much Ingram is struggling with a bar on the floor. And I think a bunch of people have pointed that out on Twitter, you know, this week. But it's a bummer because, like, we all expect. him to be kind of that number two

option and now Haley's laughing at me. Sorry, no, I remember to tweet I saw last night that was like, Brandon Ingram Can I tell you something really quick? Can I interrupt you? Is it how much I say tweets? No, I just love how delighted you are by Twitter. I love it! It's literally poison. Yeah. And you're just like, you know what's great? Twitter.

I think it's because I blocked like 500 people. Like the other day, somebody was like, you can't say that you're a suffering Ravens fan because you want a Super Bowl, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, block. I just, you know, if it's negative, get it away. But anyway. I'm sorry, I just didn't mean to interrupt you.

That's okay. Somebody tweeted that Brandon Ingram is a taller, skinnier, Andrew Wiggins. It's pretty harsh, terrible. I don't think it's that bad, but yeah. It's been bad. It's definitely not what we needed him, what LeBron needed him to be, what we wanted him to be. The best case expectation is it's not going to be Brandon Ingram. Like we were saying, okay, Lakers' best case scenario is if.

Brandon and Ingram steps up and it's the second best guy. That's not happening. The problem is that Cozma and Hart are the two guys that have fit the best with LeBron. And Lanzo and Ingram are still trying to guys figuring it out. So I wasn't going to do this, but I am going to do this. This is a little bit of a therapy session now for me because it, you know, I really like, obviously the Sixers is my favorite team. But we've been talking a little bit about some fake trades as like the deadlines kind of heating up. And I sent one that really like I've gotten the reactions to this have been like,

this is dark and like what's wrong with you and you're okay? In your group chats? Would you guys do Muscala and Ben Simmons for Hart Ingramman Ball? If you were, if I was a Sixers I would

I would not. I might do it. I might think about it because it's like a objectively. Like I'm asking you guys because for me Ben Simmons is probably my favorite basketball player so it would be really difficult for me to do that.

I wouldn't want to do that. I think that Ben in the right situation can still probably be like a top 20 top 25 player in this league. But I do think he's the type of guy that needs the entire worldview constructed around him. Whereas in the Sixers realm, it's obviously an M.

Ben and four shooters basically who then like the floor opens up and he can make incredible passes but doesn't have any expectation that he's going to hit an open jumper. I would be fascinated to see how Ben would fit with LeBron though. Me too. Because that would you just said like him and four shooters, that's what

narrative wise. It makes perfect sense. It's like the clutch takes over L.A. And it's just like he's the prince who was promised and LeBron gets to play like the last five years or six years in his career with him. Whatever it is. If the Clippers had anything to trade, that would be a perfect scenario where it's just Ben running everything.

Oh, yeah. And then he could be kind of almost like the LeBron. I would want a feeling of like fair return there. And I, you know, I don't want that to happen. But just thinking about like the Sixers have to grit out games so hard now because, I mean, and we even mentioned Joel in this whole podcast, and he might be, like, he might be the MVP.

Like, he's having such an incredible season, and he's, he is the centerpiece of that team. And I think Jimmy actually plays in a way that Jimmy actually seems to be acknowledging, like, Joel Embed is a monster, you know, like, but there's something like off about that. I mean, he always did. To be fair, like, Butler always did that, even in Minnesota.

Did he? Yeah, he did. I mean, Butler is a very willing passer. Like, it's not like he was. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, he said that he did the same thing with CAD and. He needs to respect you.

Right. When you lose this respect, you're not getting the passes. You're not going to take the ISO's itself. But I was just thinking about, you know, that's a radical reimagining of the Sixers. I refuse to believe that. I think that people think of Ben now because he plays like such a fully formed, grown man. They forget that he's 22. This is not his game.

I refuse to believe that this is his game not. This is not who he's going to be in five years. It's not. My guy needs to start taking some shots, though. outside of the paint. Like, it just needs to happen at some point. I don't understand,

like, you know, it's like, it's like you're looking at, like a survivor puzzle at the end of a challenge and it's like, you're looking at these pieces and I'm like,

I don't know, sometimes I just don't understand how the pieces fit together with those three. Did you just watch Survivor last night? I did. Yeah. Beets watching the suns and the pistons.

I'll tell you that. All right. We're going to wrap it up there. Thank you so much for listening to a group chat. Thank you for being here for my therapy. Did you have a tweet you want to talk about? I actually do have a tweet.

Butchovich for All-Star. Oh, you didn't get to talk about this. 30 seconds. I'll give Polo. I'll give a follow because you just wrote about it. Paulo wrote about it, but I feel like this is a joint production by the blog Twitter. There's a lot of joint production this year, but like these random guys. Booch.

Futurvich is going to be an All-Star. Yeah, that's what I want to say. Okay. Did you weigh in on my trade? Yeah, I said I might do it. Yeah. I think I'm way down on Ben Simmons right now. Okay.

I think a Laker fans would be like, hell no. But I don't know. Yeah. I don't think they I don't think it works for the Lakers I think it works well for the Sixers but I also think like the Sixers could probably get like a legit

all-star right now for Ben Oh yeah Like you're gonna trade it Anthony Davis Like you'd probably trade him for Simmons Yes Anthony Davis and Duellan would be weird Fultz back in practice today

All right Oh good come to that Good for that kid Pull in form All right we're gonna wrap it up there This has been group chat for Palo Justin and Hale and Chris Take care

Basketball is very good Basketball is very good Hey guys, how's it going? I'm Annie Finberg. What up? Vince Carter. What's good? Kent Baysmore.

And this is the Winging It Podcast, part of the Ringer Podcast Network. We are so excited to be here. We're going to be bringing you guys NBA news, but not just that life of NBA players. A lot of funny. Right. You going to laugh. On a scale for one to ten, how excited are you? I'm like literally off the charts.

I'm up there, actually. Are you really? I'm glad you're excited. This is pretty cool. This is going to be a podcast we got going on all season long. We're going to have a lot of really. cool guests coming along. Former MVP's, all-stars, regular guys, not so regular guys.

What else are they going to hear from us? Shoot, man. Anything and everything. We're going to wing it. It's all over the place, man. I think we don't want to be the typical. We think we all, you know, do that. We're not going to be the typical.

We're not going to just talk about basketball. We're going to talk a little bit about a little bit about everything. We talk about some golf, a lot of golf. 30%. No. We have our first. No. We have our first episode coming out later in November, so don't forget to subscribe. Rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast, and we can't wait to talk to you guys.

Thanks for listening. You're going to enjoy it. I promise. Yeah, it's going to be awesome.