The Ringer NBA Show - What Will the Future of the NBA on TV Look Like? | The Answer

Episode Date: April 2, 2021

Chris is joined by CNBC sports business reporter Jabari Young to discuss how the next NBA TV deal could change how we watch basketball (02:00). Later, Chris and The Ringer’s Bryan Curtis weigh in on how the NBA television and League Pass experience could be improved (23:00). Host: Chris Ryan Guest: Jabari Young and Bryan Curtis Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The Ringer's Dave Hill takes you on a journey into the underground lives and careers of six professional gamblers. This eight-part podcast is a unique look into the gambling world that you don't want to miss. Check out gamblers on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. It is The Answer. I'm your host Chris Ryan and we are in the dog days of the NBA season. No March Madness. It feels a little bit more consequential with the Final Four and baseball is, yeah, a little bit more full of hope for more people.

I know I'm feeling hopeful. Phillies beat the Braves on opening day. So we're all waiting for the playoffs to start. I'm obviously still watching a lot of NBA, but over the last week or so, I've probably spent more time thinking about how I watch the NBA than what I'm watching. The current NBA TV deal,

it runs through the 2024-2020-5 season, and we're already starting to hear some talk about what the next deal might look like. Television, or what we think of as television, whether it's streaming services, what have you, It's so different than what it was 10 years ago, five years ago. I mean, it's different than it was 18 months ago. But watching the NBA still feels pretty much the same.

The national broadcasts, the studio shows, the League Pass experience, it looks, it feels a lot like what we've been watching for the last decade or so. So with this new deal on the horizon and some new reporting coming out about what that deal could look like, I thought we'd spend the show talking about what the future of the NBA on TV and off TV, linear TV will look like. So I was joined today by CNBC's Jabari Young and the ringer's Brian Curtis to unpack this question. Let's get into the answer. All right, now I'm so pleased to bring on a fellow Philadelphian, but also a sports business reporter at CNBC, Jabari Young. Jabari, what's going on, man? Chris, thanks for having me on the show, man. I saw the word ringer in my email.

I'm like, whoa, man, this is good. I want to be on the ringer, you know. So I think, you know, with Bill and that staff of it is built over there. It's been great. A friend of mine, Logan is over there doing wonderful things with the podcast on. So I'm glad to be on your show. Yeah, it's great to have you, man. So you wrote a piece, I believe, last Monday, about the first sort of drumbeat that we're hearing about the next NBA TV deal.

And you had some really interesting information in there from some sources. The big takeaway I took from it was that, you know, this current deal runs through the 24-25 season. And correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here. then you're talking to people, you're talking to people familiar with sports media and familiar within like league circles. And there is already some chatter about the idea

that the next NBA deal could be upwards of three times its current value. So this would be a $75 billion deal we're talking approximately. When you hear that number, when you're talking to your sources, are you shocked? Does that track for you in terms of what you think the next deal would be?

like, what should our listeners sort of, how should they react to that number? Well, you know, first it was a bigger number than I had anticipated. You know, I had thought maybe 50, you know, billion. You know, it's going to be, it's going to be more than 24, which is what they have now, right? And NBA is the second, you know, most popular sport in America. But if you look worldwide, it's number one, you know, with soccer, you know, the U.S. domestic sport, number one around the world, right? So, you know, I thought maybe 50 billion, you know, NFL, if they got 100 because, and listen, the NFL can drive 99 million viewers.

You know, if another league can do that, then they'd be getting those type numbers as well. So, you know, I bet 50 billion, but, you know, when I heard the number 75 and then ran that number through people who do this stuff for a living, they said it was right on board with it. You know, and I think they're, you know, kind of calculating what those NBA rights would be. Because remember something, sports, you know, betting is going to really. really drive a lot of this content. That's why you see the media outlets aligning themselves with the sports books because, you know, we're going to anticipate that more states are going to add it, right, to make up for the revenue that they lost during COVID. You already see marijuana being passed left and right. New York is, you know, so they're trying to look for new areas of

revenue streams and sports betting is one of those areas. And so, you know, those rights are going to continue to help drive, you know, media evaluations amongst sports leagues. And the NBA is going to be a beneficiary of that. Whether it will ever get to NFL levels, I doubt it. And I don't think NFL is going to ever, I don't, I can't see them getting past 100 billion, you know, too, too many long. Maybe that's the number that it pops at. But, you know, 75 billion, if you look at it, is a fair number because again, the NBA does great on ratings. Last year being an anomaly, overall, that's still a more powerful sport. Their generation Z, young fans watch it. So it's going to be one of those situations where I feel like, you know, that number is right, you know, again, estimated well.

And we'll see if they can, you know, pull it in when it comes time to negotiate it. The NBA currently, like when you, I guess it's worth actually like setting up the landscape. I'm sure everybody listening to this podcast knows it. But currently there are two rights holders for the NBA, right? There's Disney and there's Warner Media. And those broadcast rights are given to, you know, TNT. And then ESPN slash ABC, I guess, for the finals. And then you've got League Pass, which is an app.

you can buy into from anywhere, and it has some blackout restrictions, but essentially you can watch any game live through regional cable sports networks. You're just basically getting that signal. Do you get the impression, even in your early conversations with people, that the next deal,

would it anyway change how we watch basketball? Would it have any practical impact on, say, the League Pass app, whether or not regional cable networks would still be a participant? in broadcasting, or are they looking to sort of start to consolidate things? You mean if, you know, the next deal will impact League pass at all? Yeah, or just in general, like, I guess I'm going to curious about is whether or not

the NBA has any desire to create a uniform television experience rather than what you have when you go and you're watching, you know, Mark Zimov announced the Sixers and there you have like all the Comcast sort of elements around it? Like, do you think that there will ever be a point where there is just like a kind of central NBA experience rather than the sort of more discrete ones that we have now. With ESPN and Turner. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I don't know. I don't know. I think that's, you got really creative on me just now. Yeah. You know, listen, with the media landscape is still what it is. Cable is still powerful, right? I don't anticipate though people will cut the court left and right that, you know,

the media companies are going to, you know, all of a sudden start losing money because people are cutting the channels. It's just find other ways to, you know, maximize the revenue, right? Disney Plus has already went up on my, on my bill. Tell me about it. Yeah. And it's funny, I'm doing this WWE story and in talking to their people over there, I forget that, you know, back when WWE started their network, you know, Netflix was charging what, 899 or something like that now it's like 1799. So you see where it's going. You know, so, you know, getting back to the NBA, could it be a package out there like that? If that's what you mean, like you buy an NBA package from a string. I mean, maybe, maybe a centralized, you know, spot, but I can't, I think there's,

the way that it's structured currently is the way that you'll see it be for a long time. I don't think that, first of all, we're not at the, the internet infrastructure to really have those type of experiences from a centralized standpoint, you know, we still need to grow from a technology standpoint. I mean, 5G, I'm talking to, you know, people behind the scenes who make antennas and things for cell phone towers. And they're like, you know, it's going to take a while for 5G to really roll out. It took 10 years for 4G to really roll out, right? And so in order to get to those next level experiences that I think, you know, if I'm reading you correctly that you're mentioning, in terms of that media value with around the NBA product, you know, you're going to have to

scale a little bit. One company I think I'm keeping an eye on and all of this is Apple, you know, because Apple has, they have the scale with their phones, right? So anybody can go do an Apple and watch some sports. I think that they're going to be a major player down the line. You know, Amazon don't have their own phone, I don't think. So, you know, you still got a... It may be the only thing they don't have.

Right, you know, but Apple does. And you see what Apple's starting to do. They're starting to pull their privacy information. They're going to make it harder for social media companies to access this. stuff because they want to scale, you know, they want to make money. So everybody has an Apple phone. You know, a lot of people have Android, but Apple phones could be a way that this model that you're kind of referring to is built around. But, but again, I think we're still not at the point that we need to be from an internet infrastructure standpoint. But once that speeds up, and it will,

I think you'll start to see a lot of things change around, you know, how sports is continuing to be consumed as we are in this digital age. Yeah, my creative question was essentially a long-winded way of asking, could you see the NBA on Netflix or could you see the NBA on Amazon Prime or Apple TV? I guess that's really where I was going with that. And that's, and also another area too that, at least NFL is kind of still concerned about this because if you read the language of their deal correctly, like they say, hey, all the games are still on TV, don't worry about it. Yeah, in the local markets, they are. So Amazon's, you know, deal isn't exclusive, exclusive because the local market still get to see them. I still think that TV and it's the way that it's

reached will still be the way that the leagues will prefer. They want it out of that Thursday night package. The networks did. So if Amazon feels like they can pick up a piece of NBA content, and maybe they will. Those playing games are going to be a value, right? I don't think the media, the current partners are going to let that go because that's another added revenue stream for them. but those playing games in this tournament that, you know, NBA wants to build, I'm going to be really interested to see how they piece that together. And then at that point, maybe, maybe Amazon gets in exclusively for an NBA type rights package. But we'll see how Amazon handles it over these next, you know, few years as the, you know,

transition at the reason like football. I think we're at the very beginning of, you know, kind of answering your question. Amazon pulls it off and they can build a very, a great video ad, you know, revenue. around that particular product because, you know, they paid a billion dollars for it. I'm sure they want some return of their investment. And they can pull it off. Beware, because the streaming companies, I think, you know, they'll get more involved with it. And then maybe, maybe this model that you're kind of referring to, again, you'll see some more clarity around what it could be. Yeah, it's, it's so fascinating to think about the different rationales behind why

various companies would want the NBA specifically, but live sports rates in general. Because for the cable companies or for the networks, it's one of the last reliable, we've got people as a captive audience, right? It's appointment viewing to watch LeBron James. For the streaming companies, they're like, this is our big subscriber gamut. You know, if I have to,

if all Lakers fans and all Celtics fans and all Bulls fans need to go to Netflix to watch the NBA, that's going to be one of their, I don't know, last great, but one of their great pushes for subscribers, at least domestically, if not internationally.

Right. And this is where Amazon is going to have to prove out that business model, right? They're hoping that the – I'm not a big fan of Thursdaysling football. I just don't think the product is as good. The matchups aren't, you know, really that good. I think NFL is going to have to get better with that particular product. But, you know, maybe make the game guys who are going to play on Thursday. Maybe, you know, I mean, I guess Saturday would be tough,

but the ones college football actually restricts that, so I don't think they're even allowed to do it. But, you know, I want to kind of see – how it evolves and again how Amazon plays it because they got a lot riding on this you know and if there is a demand there if they do see subscribers come for just the NFL and its package then I think you have a play you know but if not and that's an NFL is taking a chance too because Thursday nights now that's the NBA night they got that back they don't have a TV anymore you know so the NBA can capitalize off of this because if that's going to be handled true this is another

reason why they should ask for money that's going to be exclusive night back for them. They don't got to compete with the NFL anymore. So that's now, if you still have ad dollars and you want to use that ad dollars to go get the Thursday night crowd that we know is pretty good. That show, T&T is pretty good. And you don't have to compete with the NFL anymore on television, on cable TV. You know, that that boosts the NBA's value. You know, so again, networks are really into deep with it. I can't see them losing all their sports to the streaming companies. And remember, they're streaming companies themselves now. Exactly. You know what I mean? they're taking back their product and they're stripping Netflix butt naked.

You know, and saying, look, give us back our stuff or pay a hefty life system fee to run it. And they're building at HBO. How is Warner going to capitalize that HBO Max subscription? Are you going to be able to get access T&T games now from that? You know, if you get HBO Max because that's a Warner Media property. So I want to see how they kind of, you know, mixed sports in with their streaming rights. And again, how, you know, the sports betting aspect, you know, plays a part of that because media companies are involved with that as well.

Do you think that that was exactly my next question, is that let's say we just run it back with WarnerMedia and Disney. Do you think that part of the ESPN deal would be to ask to be able to put a batch of games or a significant amount of games on ESPN Plus? Or that could you see a world in which that was actually part of a network deal that that was made with the NBA or that a batch of games would go on HBO Max? Although I really, I don't, the current version of HBO Max, I don't think would, support that, but ESPN Plus is where I watch Italian soccer. You know, I mean, that's where I

watch German soccer. Yeah. Um, you know, see, with the end, with, what that is such, it's hard because the, you know, remember, the NFL, NBA is they have, they have a lot of volume of games, you know, they can, ESPN can pull that off in the NFL because, you know, they can, now here, here's where it can get tricky or here's where that, that can come in. Because remember something, you know, a lot of people don't understand how these media, how these leads. are able to ask for so much around this, right? Because remember, the leagues get it, they get to dictate what ads are sold around their product. They get to dictate what goes up on that screen while their product is running. So if your media, if you're a network now, you're going to start

to ask for some of that screen time to be able to better use that ad space on the screen, whether it be a betting line, you know, whether it be some type of, and that's where ESPN Plus can, you know, make its value. So now if you're better and you want the latest odds on the game, You can watch that same ESPN game that's on regular TV. You can access that on ESPN Plus, but this time with some type of betting feed around it, which, you know, allows you to monetize, you know, from an ad standpoint. So, you know, there's a whole bunch of ways that you can play with it because, you know, that screen is where the value is.

Whatever is on that screen is that's where it is. I remember a long time ago where college football, you know, board in those nets, you know, and he had the big giant logos on the nets. And quickly, TV networks was like, yo, that's free screen time. That's our money. Yeah, right. We ain't doing this. You know, NFL, you know, so it's kind of like that.

They control what goes up on that screen around their product. And so as you ask for more money, these networks are going to want more of a say of what they get a chance to build around ad-wise because, you know, that's money for them. you know, and that's how the cycle goes, you know, the ads, the net, the media, the marketers pay for all of this stuff. And we consumers pay to marketers, the marketers pay the networks, the networks pay the leagues, you know what I mean? And if that cycle continues, then that's how that money is made. And now, again, it's a circle of life. Yeah. Yeah. You're talking about the betting, you're talking about the playing tournament. I guess the thing I wanted to sort of hit on before I let you go is how do you think that this next TV dealer, have you given much thought,

to how this next TV deal might practically affect the actual product we're watching. Because I think this is, our conversation is happening at the time of the season when I'm typically, it's that lull right before the playoffs. So I think a lot of people are like, is this season any good, man? And like, man, a lot of guys are sitting and they're getting ready for the playoffs. And there's a little bit of fatigue. And there's always this kind of constant brainstorming going on of like, well, maybe they should take it down to 60 games. or maybe there should be a mid-season

F-A-Cup-style tournament that gets a draft pick or something. Like, there's always, like, a lot of casting for, like, how we could improve the game, how we could improve the season. Do you think that the league is thinking that in tandem with the rights? Do you think that they think

that they need to refresh the product at all? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. These are ongoing discussions that I know the NBA is having all the time because you're absolutely right. You know, there is a point in time where the product does lag a little bit

because it's almost sometimes you know who the eight's going to be. All right, come on. Let's get the playoff started. You know what I mean? Like, why do I got to watch another 20-something games? I know the bottom half is trying to already just position themselves for draftics. This is why I think the NBA is very happy with the fact that there are so many teams spread out that has a chance to win it. You know what I mean?

Like it's more balance now, right? And that's why you see the trade deadline so interesting. When more teams have an opportunity to be in it, you know, when more teams have the opportunity to make the postseason. And remember, that's playoff revenue money. You know what I'm saying? coming in. So I think if it remains, the league remains balanced like this, that's great for the network partners because now they can add, you know, they're able to monetize more games. They're able to market more games of value, a product. You know what I'm saying? So I know I was having a discussion with

some people in the league about, you know, the way that they want to, you see how they're doing it now with the back to backs, right? But it's like you stay in one city instead of going home and away. you know, they're monitoring how that's working out from a rating standpoint this year and also how the crowd is looking at it because if you get a chance to see the same team on a Friday and Saturday, you know what I'm saying? In the same location, would more people come out, right? And so I think those type of models are happening. And there's a way to maybe, you know, increase the product from a duration standpoint because

players are healthier, right? When they're not traveling as much. And so if you can eliminate that travel, things like that, you know, There has been a little bit of floating around about, you know, how to kind of change the game schedule a little bit. I can't necessarily see that happening, though there are people who believe 72 you can get away with 72 instead of 82. But remember, the networks pay a lot of money for these nights. I don't think you're trying to tell them, you're going to cut our product and charge us more. No, that's not going to happen.

Hard to imagine the NBA shrinking its season while the NFL is expanding it, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe, but I don't see it now, but maybe. But this is, again, this is how you are able to take that tournament concept and maybe frame it. So you're still playing the 82, but it's different, though. And that's where that people are competing for that mid-cup. And they're going to try to make some prizes around that. They're going to try to, you know, up that.

And if you're a competitor, a basketball player, you might not like it at first, but you'll get used to it. Just the way that people were complaining about the playing tournament. And now I like to play in tournament. You know, people were complaining about the All-Star game format. That turned out to be pretty cool, right? So they're always trying to tinker with ways on how to improve and make their product better, the All-Star game again being an example of that. And, you know, I think that that's an ongoing thing. It takes a lot, though, to get your rule changes because there's a lot of,

you know, people who are just, you know, they don't want to touch anything. The NBA's built off of a product. They make billions of dollars now. Why are you touching a product? Why are you interfering with it? You got $24 billion and you could get $75. You talk about changing? Why am I changing someone making money off of it? I'll change when I have to. Baseball has to change. They got, and that's why you see them trying to alter their rules and do a more playoff format. They have to change because their ratings are not where they want. Well, this seems to be a major theme of your work. I was watching a video you did about NFTs recently, and you were trying to explain,

like, you have to understand the acceleration of culture right now and, like, how fast we're moving now compared to maybe like the last hundred years, you know? And I think one thing I was going to ask you as a capstone for this conversation is, we're seeing NBA player contracts short. is there any reason why the NBA wouldn't take a shorter deal now and see where the landscape is in five years rather than the typical nine, 10 year deal that that leagues typically make with partners? Sure. If you take more, if you take less money. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So if you're a media partner, you want to lock the NBA up as long as possibly can. You don't want to do no. And listen, I think I use the nine year just to kind of frame it. But I can see that easily going up to 11. and 12-year deal. You know, you're not going to pay that amount of money and think that you're going get off the hook and you don't get all of this in five years. Like, they got to make money, too,

and that takes time. So, you know, I think it'll be a longer term deal than the nine, maybe 11 and 12. But again, the NBA isn't going anywhere. ESPN and, you know, Warner Media, they are their partners. And they're the product is promoted around those two outlets. Like, you watch TNT. You not only watch the games on T&T, you watch the halftime show, you watch the pregame show. Why? Because you want to hear what Kenny Shaq and Charles has to say about this coming matchup. You want to hear what they got to say about things happening in the league. And that is the type of stuff that continues to build on the value of that. And as long as the NBA, and remember something, if as long as the NBA has their product and it's balanced and you're able to see more teams compete, stars on the rise, international stars, their product is gold right now.

You know, and it's not, it's nowhere to be, it's not an NFL. NFL is going to remain king because of what they are. but they are the next best thing and the first best thing around the world outside of soccer. You know, so again, I can't see much changing. You know, I think their media partners are going to stay the same. I think their media partners are making a lot of money. You know what I mean? That's why they're able to pay them a lot of money.

I think that they know this product is good. The Generation Z, the Generation Alpha is continuing to follow the NBA. You have your next set of audience or your next set of fans already set up. My daughter knows who some of these players is. She doesn't really watch football. doesn't like football, but she knows who the basketball players is. So that's already a built-in consumer. Right. Right.

Yeah. She's already a built-in consumer for the NBA. And as long as that is the thing, and then that product is being consumed at the level is being consumed, the media rights is going to continue to go up. All right, man. Well, Jabari, thank you so much for stopping by the answer. It's really informative. And keep up the great work at CNBC, man.

Chris, thanks a lot from having, man. I appreciate it. You have a good weekend. All right. Now I'm joined by Brian Curtis, the ringer's Brian Curtis. Pressbox is Brian Curtis. my buddy Brian Curtis. What's up, man? How worried, Chris?

I'm doing okay. I just talked to Jabari about this NBA rights deal and about the number that he sort of is hearing about this $75 billion deal that the NBA could be in for, which would be a 3x increase over their current value. And he and I chatted a little bit about whether that number seemed big, whether that number seemed small, whether the NBA was still really like a meal ticket for these networks and whether or not, you know, the ratings were good. And he, you know, he was saying that despite Corona, like, that there's a degree of solidity to the NBA and that it's a growth sport. I wanted to ask you, though, I feel like there's, like, among NBA fans and maybe

of sports fans in general, but especially NBA fans, NBA fans are tinkers. Like, we do a lot of, like, how could this be improved? How could my experience be perfected? How could I curate it more and more? why do you think it is that the NBA attracts that kind of discourse rather than the NFL where I think we're just sort of like I kneel before Zod? I was thinking about this before

we talked. I think a couple reasons. One, youngish NBA fans. Youngish fans are tinkers by nature probably. But I think the second part is probably the NBA discourse is just at a higher level, I would say, on

balance than the NFL discourse. By that, I mean, like, if you look at the best, the most popular NBA writers, they're probably just talking about the NBA with lots of sophistication, with stats. They're talking about, should we change this? Should we change that? That exists in other sports. But I just feel that mindset kind of pervades NBA writing and NBA talking in a way it doesn't other sports. So that probably then sort of leaps back on to broadcasting. Yeah.

And I think that there's, it's one thing to sort of toy around with the product. and Bill has been, you know, asking for a mid-season tournament or a commissioner's cup tournament for, you know, it seems like more than a decade now. We've got the play in tournament now. I think that there's this strange desire, at least I can speak for myself, to have fewer games that matter more,

that the NBA is kind of caught in this in-between zone right now where it's not quite the marathon of baseball, but not quite the sprint of football. And so it feels like you get, parts of the season like when we're in now where it doesn't seem to matter very much. You know what I mean? Like it's they're playing every night, but like guys are hurt. They're waiting. You know, guys are on new teams. Guys are taking rests and we're getting ready for the playoffs. And I think that that makes me think a lot about the TV experience of it

because people who watch a lot of TV as like a digital native. If you're watching it on streamers, if you're watching it on your laptop, if you're messing around with like your watch lists and stuff like that. I think you have a very kind of like hands-on experience, but the NBA doesn't really actually allow that hands-on experience. Do you think that maybe hardcore NBA fans who are incredibly like logged on and incredibly like tuned in to how they're watching stuff, are maybe outpacing the NBA in terms of a TV experience and what they want? Yeah, though I don't know that that's particularly distinct to the NBA. Because I think if we look at Twitter during any sports broadcast. Nobody's being like, you know what that was? That was a great

freaking sports broadcast I just watched. That was perfect. Yeah. Everybody's tinkering and everybody's kind of mad or about making jolly fun of the announcers. So, you know, you're right, you're certainly right that there is, it feels like those are happening in two completely different media universes now, more so than ever. But I don't know that there's any less satisfaction with NBA fans maybe than there is with NFL fans or MLB fans. who are watching today. I think that I would like to be in a zone right now where I didn't notice how I was watching it. Like I think that like when I'm when I'm really if and when like a golf tournament gets it right, like the best moment of that golf tournament is when you almost forget

you're watching it on television, right? It just feels like you were experiencing the event. And I think the same thing goes for any major sport. But for the most part, part of that is like especially at the end of many games, there's just a lot of timeouts, there's a lot of stoppages of play. The flow of the game gets jammed up a little bit. But, you know, that's not the same thing for the NBA.

And the NBA, I think there's a lot of conversation around, like, inside the NBA and the guys, you know, whether or not the Chuck Kenny era is ending and the Lefco and De Wade and Candice era is beginning. And then there's also this, like,

incredibly engaged social media presence. around the NBA, that in and of itself is, I guess, their generation or like our generations, that's the inside the NBA that most people are growing up with is looking at Twitter. Yes. And so we look at television and we think, why doesn't television come up to us to meet us? We've learned from Charks and KOC and Zach Lowe and Goldsbury. And why doesn't TV come up here and meet us on the way? Right. Whereas the TV executive is sitting in their office and going, you know what scares the hell out of me is putting something on TV that somebody watches and says, I don't understand that.

Right. They get Shackding a fool. People are like, I get it. Javel, he fell. Yeah. And you talk about inside the NBA, like those moments where Shack is clearly struggling to remember famous NBA players' names or being corrected by Candace about elementary sort of parts of modern basketball, that looks bad.

I'm not sure anybody likes that. But at the same time, I think they'd much rather have that happen than somebody going on a telecast and talking in a way people don't understand. And when you're talking about, you're looking at a way. for the mass audience, right? Like the NBA is still kind of like an 80s sitcom. It wants everybody to watch it. It's not Bridgetton.

It's not Wanda Vision, right? We just want every human being is a potential audience member for this. Yes. So we don't want to make this complicated. We want to have famous people laughing and having fun. And then we want to have, you know, people calling the game and explaining it in very much in layman's terms. And if we get out of that, we get scared.

because then maybe the mass audience goes somewhere else. Do you, are you a league pass user? I am not a league pass user. Okay. But you're familiar with obviously to some extent.

I use the league pass over my Apple TV because the cable company that I have in Los Angeles, if you subscribe to League Pass or get the NBA package on the cable company, they comes in SD, which is actually, I think we've finally gotten to the point

where that is actually impossible to watch given the televisions. But you know, when you use League Base Pass, you get the regional cable network feed of that game. I have a lot of affection for regional cable sports networks and their wares. But do you think there's a sunset approaching for that model for the RCNs? And do you think that we're going to eventually go to a all under one banner,

all content being pumped out from one or two different partners? and like the idea of seeing H-E-B ads and having Sean Elliott on a Spurs game or something is going to be a thing of the past. The regional sports networks, the RSNs, seem really, really particularly weird in this media era. Yes. Because they've always been mostly just places to put games.

I don't think there are a lot of people who are like, I come home from work, I pop a beer, and I flip on root sports. I don't think people think that. No. They think I'm going to watch the Pirates game or the Rockies game or the Maverick game or whatever it is. But I'm not that interested in like the shoulder programming of an RSN. Yeah.

So if that's the case, then you think, well, why couldn't we just do this in a different way? And look, there's an artistic part of this that you're talking about. There's also just a very fundamental like, how do I get the RSN part that's happening right now with Sinclair, which is all these old FoxxN. sports networks that are now branded. Yeah. And I know in Dallas, Mavericks fans cannot get the old Fox Sports Southwest on like YouTube TV. So you're telling a really young, really digital NBA audience, hey, if you want to watch your local team play, you have to kind of get cable in those cases, old school cable.

Right. And you have all these young people going, that sucks. That's terrible. And maybe those carriage deals get worked out, but there are a bunch of them across the country. And it's kind of like, to me, that really does point out. It's like, is it just time for this to, this stuff to go somewhere else? That made sense in the cable bundle. I have my national ESPN here. I have my local Fox Sports or whatever, root sports or whatever it is. Shouldn't that go somewhere else and isn't there more an efficient way to get those games? There's, there's a Reddit thread currently

that I was looking at, I think it's on the Nuggets Reddit, where all these people are like, I need to get like a VPN to sign in to league pass from Europe so that I, internationally, so that I can watch the Nuggets, even though I live like two miles from the Denver arena. Unbelievable. I guess the question I wanted to ask you next

was just really more about whether or not you think we're streaming, streaming networks come into play here because I think that that will probably be something that we definitely see in our lifetime, but I think is maybe a little bit farther away than we think, is this idea that

leak pass could somehow pour it over to Netflix or port over to Amazon. I talked a little bit of Djibari about this, but you know, I am curious about it would seem to me that this is one of the last great domestic subscriber gambits that one of these big, big streamers could make

would be to buy a major sports league's rights. But I do think that like we're far away from that, but it seems like something that's on the horizon. Yeah, I think the NFL thing that just ended was pretty instructive here. Because we saw, like the vast majority of the NFL rights went to channel two and channel four and channel five

in your local market like it's on free television but the NFL Sunday ticket is still out there and everybody's like ooh what if ESPN Plus bought that and suddenly made ESPN Plus an absolutely must have product or what if Amazon went and bought that right and so they're not fully in a big package though Amazon sort of is but they're not fully in a huge huge package but hey they've got this thing that everybody kind of has to have. So I could totally see that happening with the NBA and all these functionality issues that NBA League Pass has now been dealing with for a decade or more. Like the Knicks front office redeemed itself before NBA League passed it. Think about that. I know. What would you have had in that sweepstakes? No, but I just,

so what if you did send that over to Netflix or did send that to Amazon, I think all that gets fixed in like 10 minutes. Yeah. I think that their user experience would be great. I think that, you know, Jabari said something that made me start thinking about, like, one of the crucial parts about all this is going to be with the gambling is having a reliably live experience. Now, I guess you could get into the idea of is anything truly live? Maybe not. But if you are watching football on Sunday and you're watching an Eagles game through your league, your Sunday ticket app on Apple TV, it's not uncommon to it's third and seven and then your Twitter feed explodes with,

oh my God, oh my God, Carson, what are you doing? Which is a really reliable experience on Sundays, not for any longer. But like if you're gambling, if you're doing any kind of live betting, I think that like the concept of live is going to have to be sort of ironed out there, right? Yes.

Though I can imagine when Jabari's article was interesting, but he was saying essentially that the thinking was right now that they would send their two big packages, ESPN and Turner would sort of renew on cable television. Yes. Which, by the way, is an interesting side conversation. The NFL doubled down on rabbit ears, essentially. Free TV that my mom, who is in her 70s, has in her home.

She can watch the Dallas Cowboys every week. She just plugs her TV into the back, into the wall. 17 games are free. Whereas the NBA, if you're doing that, you were doubling down on cable. Now, maybe you're also saying, okay, that's also counts as ESPN Plus and streaming stuff winds up viacom and all these things wind up being in that. That's kind of a slightly different bet to me. but I just think if you sent the,

I think league pass would just have so much value because also if the NBA, you're thinking right, we want to be in old TV and we want to be in the future of TV at the same time. That's the thing, is that I feel like that the NBA is the one, is the league that I feel like wants to be both things, things to all people, whereas the NFL is sort of like, we're your dad,

but like, let's admit, you really like your dad. And baseball is like, we're your grandfather. Check in on us sometimes. Yeah, you like your grandfather sometimes. and then he says something and you go, yeah, the NBA wants to be a little bit of that, but they also want to be like the Steve Bouchemie meme

where he's got like his hat on backwards and his skateboard. And he's like, you know, I think that they want to be the thing people talk about on Twitter and the thing that House of Highlights makes Instagram videos of and all this stuff. But that's not really up to them

once they sell these rights. Yeah. I mean, I just look also at the WWE going over to Peacock for that gigantic number. That to me is, that's the gateway drug, for all these things.

Right. Like, oh, we could just sell them a thing. And that thing is so popular. And so, and it's such a must have that everybody's just going to become to our service because they need that.

And that, that to me is sort of league pass. Well, the thing that, that, that, I think the reason why I'm so fired up about this idea of creating an OTT experience that's just like one home for all of it is because of my experience

watching Champions League this year on this, what was CBS All Access and is now paramount. Because for a brief, moment on Tuesdays and Wednesdays and Thursdays with Europa League, you get this picture of what it could be like, you know, where you have 10 little boxes or five little boxes of these matches, and then they also have essentially a Red Zone channel. So you can basically go back and forth, and when Red Zone tells you that it's 1-1 now, or it looks like this guy might have just gotten sent off, so it's going to be 11 on 10 or something, you can go to the Leipzig game or you can

go to the Real Madrid game. And it actually feels like a more particular. participatory experience of watching sports rather than this passive like, okay, cool, another Capital One commercial. Like, you know, you're actually like managing your own evening in a weird way. Now, I can't imagine what that would do to my concept of free time if I all of a sudden was like doing the minority report thing with all my NBA games. But it does feel like there is an untapped experience out there for the NBA with that kind of participatory thing. Yeah, that's a really good call. And I totally think that could happen. I don't even think. think you need to get rid of the regionalism to do that. Yeah, I mean, maybe not. Maybe not.

And by the way, the regionalism is kind of part of the fun, right? Are you going to sample it and like, oh, wow, these announcers sound really weird and down home. Right. That shouldn't, shouldn't teams sort of sound like that on the local broadcast? Yeah. Do we need like an Iron Eagle clone for every team at home? I mean, that, that'd be awesome in a way, but it's also seems pretty unlikely that would

happen. But I do like your idea of just making it more, here's my wall of video. and I'm checking this out every night. It's a really good experience. And yeah, I mean, I guess the one just asterisk I put on that is the ringer really oversamples regular season NBA games. Like, I'll get on Twitter. I'm like, yeah.

I'm like, oh, wow, everybody at the ringer is watching this. And then if I went and looked up the ratings, that would be it. No, I think 40 people watched the Lakers Bucks game last night because AD and LeBron. I mean, like, I'm sure a lot of Lakers fan watched it. but watching it last night and then my entire timeline is just this debate about Mark Gassal getting six minutes

and drummond playing with a missing toenail. And that would make it, you'd think it was like the season finale of lost based on my small sample size. So I definitely have been NBA-pilled. I agree with you on that.

Can we talk a little bit about the way, let's just talk to just a little bit about the ESPN and Turner experiences right now because I do think that obviously the team, TNT Studio show has been under a bit of a microscope this year, both because of the aforementioned faux pas made by Shaq, but they also did a kind of curtain call-esque documentary for the inside

the NBA crew. You know, and I think that ESPN seems to, with the exception of the jump, which is kind of more dayside broadcasting, I don't even remember the last time I watched an ESPN studio experience during one of their double headers. Do they still even do that? you and me both pal it just does not it doesn't it it sort of kind of seems to exist

but just does not feel like must watch television like they're just keeping it like they just keep it moving they come in and they're like yep this guy's having a great game 13 boards how about that it feels like their their studio programming feels like it should exist because it's halftime and you should go to some kind of studio yeah right there should be somebody standing there talking about the game but I have never I have never gotten past that

that it does not feel essential why do you think that that from an editorial perspective, do you have any guesses as to why that's happening? I think part of it, it's the TNT peeps have just vacuumed up so much of the oxygen to mix a metaphor there. But they're just so big because they had this great idea of, I know, we're just going to put the biggest stars on there who are just going to be really quotable. Sometimes what they say is going to make no sense at all or it's going to be actively bad. But that is what people want to watch. I mean, I make fun of what sports announcers say all the time.

But there's a certain value to like, those guys are really. big stars and they are talking about it and your eyes naturally go there. So I think that's part of it's like chasing the NCAA ideal. Like that is just one thing. ESPN's figured this out with college football. Yeah. Everybody's chasing ESPN's college football pregame show and have been for more than a decade because they don't, they can't replicate it. Right. But I feel with the NBA, ESPN is like how do we replicate this? They've got good hosts. I like a lot of hosts. You know, it's like Rachel's great. Maria Taylor. They have lots of good people on NBA stuff. But It's just hard, I think, for them to find the right person to be sitting there talking about it

and make it pop. I don't know. Yeah. I feel like they can't take that last leap maybe to that zone where it doesn't really matter what Candace and Shaq are talking about. Like you're basically just waiting for something to happen in that studio rather than I'm going to learn something. So, and I actually, I've learned a lot about basketball from Wade and Candice this year.

And Weber's been cool too. when he's been filling in in the studio. I mean, I think that they can be a little stiff sometimes, but definitely, like, more educational. But when you go to those ESPN shows, I think that there's, like, this reticence to go too far and not do the Stephen A thing. And then there's, like, but then you kind of get stuck in between.

You get stuck in between, like, just the facts versus, like, I've just said something incredibly controversial that's going to become a Twitter debate for 24 hours. Yeah, you sort of, it's those two roles, right, of being like, where the end, where this is the poem for the NBA, so we're the custodians of the sport. Sure. And somehow Turner's figured out how to be the custodians of the sport and just light the world on fire like once a week, which is a pretty good place to be. Yeah, it is. You're trying to get eyeballs. It is. Well, Brian, we can wrap it up there,

man. Thank you so much for joining me on the answer today. Thanks, Chris. Appreciate it. Talk to you soon.