The Ringer NBA Show - What’s the Heat’s Move in Game 2? Plus, Next Steps for New Coaching Hires. | Group Chat

Episode Date: June 3, 2023

Justin, Rob, and Wos preview Game 2 of the NBA Finals and talk about the moves Miami can do to compete with Denver. (02:00). They discuss if Game 1 was Miami’s best opportunity, whether more minutes should be given to Haywood Highsmith and Kevin Love, and Miami's lack of defenders for Nikola Jokic . After, they discuss the next steps for the Suns, Pistons, and Sixers after their recent coaching hires (28:29). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producer: Eduardo Ocampo Additional Production Support: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

You may find this hard to believe, but 60 songs that explain the 90s. America's favorite poorly named music podcast is back. With 30 more songs than 120 songs total. I'm your host, Rob Harvilla, here to bring you more shrewd musical analysis, poignant nostalgic reveries, crude personal anecdotes, and rad special guests, all with even less restraint than usual. Join us once more on 60 Saws that Explain the 90s every Wednesday on Spotify.

Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me the two newest spokesman for Unitas. It is Rob Mahoney and Big Waz. What's up, boys? I hate you so much. I can't even play along. I want to distance myself as far as I can from our guy Johnny Isaac's brand. Yeah, Wokenness is run amok, Justin Vary, including my very presence on this podcast network.

And so Jonathan Isaac is here to reign us back in. Fuck affirmative action. Do you think they'll get a spot on your popular video series? It's unlikely. Yeah, we try to stay away from outward racism and bigotry. The bold stance. towards the blacks, even when it's coming from blacks. Well, something to consider, perhaps, you know?

Especially since our boy, John, just wants to see both sides of things. We're going to get into some coaching action that has been heating up in the midst of the NBA finals. But first, we're in the midst of the finals. Rob, you're there live in Denver. What's it like in the heart of the NBA finals right now? in terms of the finals itself or you asking about the city of Denver?

What do you want the scouting report on? A little bit above. Give me a potpourri. Denver's delightful. Really enjoying my time here. You know, I think, like, I've heard the Portland comparisons. I think some of them are fair

in terms of like a more mountainy, outdoorsy variant of Portland. I can see it. I can see the vision. In terms of the series itself, look, it's an unusual finals, right? Just in terms of the matchup of the teams involved,

the media presence that comes with those matchups. It's a quaint neighborhood affair. as far as NBA finals go. And honestly, that treats us real heads just fine. We know what we're out here for. We know what we're seeing. And so far, it's the Denver Nuggets being, I would say pretty dominant,

despite what the margin ended up looking like. Yeah, so is there any, like, additional context, any, like, on the ground details, like seeing the sights and sounds of Denver's beatdown of Miami probably was a little bit different than what we experienced, watching from afar. Was there anything like you picked up on or noticed in the seats? I mean, some of it, like, you can tell even from no matter your vantage point, obviously the size advantage is going to hit a little bit different.

The sluggishness probably, you know, you could credit to some of the altitude differentiation of Miami being dropped into this market and having to figure it out. They looked a step slow. The heat certainly did. And so I think there's going to be a lot of chatter as to whether that's something that, oh, they're going to get used to playing in this environment now that they've been here for a few days going into game two. or as I lean, I think this is just kind of what this matchup is, is that the heat by the nature of how they have to match up with the nuggets are on the ropes in so many of these individual matchups. It's just really hard for them to keep up.

It's really hard for them to keep pace. And I mean, that literally sometimes in transition is producing all these wild cross-matches across the board. But it's just a really, a really brutal matchup in the sense that it does feel like one of these teams is kind of head and shoulders above the other. And I say that with great respect for how Miami got here. but they just don't have the horses, Denver does. Yeah, and I think part of what got lost in the upsets that Miami pulled off

is how insanely well they were playing. Like, they were playing incredible basketball, but I think the marker of, the truest marker of what Rob just mentioned about how they seem to be a bit outmatched here. Jimmy Butler specifically, right? Like, he goes five for 13, doesn't have one of his, one of his better playoff games. But if we remember the Bucks matchup specifically, the drop coverage team in the NBA, Jimmy was attacking Brooke Lopez as if he were Bill Winnington

or something, right? Like, with abandon, he was attacking Janice Ante Cicompo. What he did to Drew Holiday is something I will never forget, right? First team, All-MBA, the premier perimeter defender of this generation, right? To see him not want to challenge, look, I love Nicola Yokic. He's my MVP. He's not a great defensive player. You shouldn't be afraid to go challenge that guy at the cup. To see Jimmy's, you know, sort of hesitance in doing that, I think that's part of, that

has to be said. That's part of the problem. He's not playing up to the level that he was when they beat two teams that coming into the playoffs, most people, not. not me, thought were better than the Nuggets, okay? Everybody thought the bucks were basically the title favorites, and right behind them was the Boston Celtics. They beat me both of those teams, but Jimmy played differently than he did in that game one.

It's just like, not even like, oh, he missed shots that he normally makes. He's not taking the same kind of shots that he was taking in those series to elevate Miami. And so I think that's fixing to be a big problem for these guys. Well, and it needs to be said, Jimmy has just kind of played differently overall since that ankle sprain earlier in the playoffs. Has not, he's had exceptional moments, exceptionally explosive and aggressive moments,

but as an overall baseline, kind of looks like a little bit of a different guy than he did before that spring. Yeah, so overall, but he played pretty well in game one, right? You know, the limited Denver's fast break points, Michael Porter Jr. didn't have a good game, on and on and on.

It seemed like they tightened up all the things you would expect from a Miami team. But I think the question for both of you is, like, are you glass half full base on that or empty? On the one hand, they played well, but they did lose pretty handedly. The margin was slimmer than it was at certain points. I think it got up to what, 24 at a certain point.

On the other hand, are there ways to build upon that? Their shooting, which had been a big strength for them all postseason, they made a third of their threes. Guys like Struz didn't hit all nine if his, Duncan Robinson wasn't hit an A. anything. They also had two free throw attempts the entire game. And on the one

hand, maybe that's a whistle, maybe that's whatever. But on the other hand, they also weren't getting to the pain enough. And so, was, are you like, well, maybe they could build on what they had and do X, Y, and Z, or are you more skeptical based on having a good game and still losing? To me, they can't

really be expected to play better defense than they did in game one. They played good enough defense to win that game. And I bring up Jimmy because he's had superlative performances, like, I don't think he has to score 50 for them to win, but he needs to be in the 20s. He's got to be at like 26 because this is going to be a series that they win, if they win, if they make it competitive, it's because they're doing it on the offensive

end, and their offensive output just wasn't good enough. I'm sorry, a offense based around. Yeah, Bam, out of bio took 25 shots, probably what? 20 of those with jump shots? Like, you can't build a healthy offense off of bam out of bio jump shots. That's not a thing. And so I wonder if they have to start, we know it's Miami, we know it's heat culture, we know what Pat Riley's legacy is, we know Spolstra's, spolstra at this point crazy to say, has a legacy, right? Like, we know what his legacy is and it's been built on defense.

I wonder if they're going to have to start doing some more offensive forward lineups, because I don't think they're going to guard these guys no matter what. So I wonder if they're going to start doing offense first here. What does offense first look like for Miami, though? You could argue maybe more Duncan Robinson. There are definitely individual players who skew more offense than defense. But collectively, in terms of creation, they're kind of already putting some of those lineups out there.

Like Jimmy and Bam and to some extent gave Vincent and Caleb Martin. Those are the creators on this team. And I don't know that you're going to stretch much further than that. So to me, this is where you've got to start asking yourself harder questions, right? If you're going to play a big... Because, like, I think about that... Remember that Dallas game against the Nuggets, where Luca was just so ruthless against Yokic in the pick and roll

at the end of the game, where it's five-out, and it's like, you can pick your poison here. This guy cannot guard a five-out offense, And we're going to put him in the action every single play, and they generated beautiful three-point looks, pretty much possession after possession after possession, which was one of the few times this season when I was like, damn. So I wonder if Miami goes, hey, bam, you can't shoot.

You're not guarding this dude one-on-one credibly anyway. Maybe we go with some Kevin Love minutes here because he's a five-man who can shoot, and he can do like a decent, you know, facsimile of post-defense, right? Maybe, but these are hard questions that you ask yourself when you are severely outmanned. And that's the thing. It's like not only were the heat outmanned, it was so clear from the opening possessions of the game that the nuggets were completely dialed into what Miami was going to do, the way they were going to front, the way they were going to press, the way and how and when they were going to run zone. I think Miami still was able to do some things successfully in spite of that just because they're a team of good, smart, hardworking players.

but I don't know. It felt like they were climbing a mountain. Even when they closed the game to single digits, it never felt like the Nuggets didn't have control of this game. And that's concerning because we can talk all day about, oh, you know, Max Struz missed so many open shots. Denver is not going to shoot below 30% from three, probably ever again in this series.

Michael Porter Jr. is not going to go two for 11 from three again. This might have been your shot if you were the heat, right? Like this might have been the chance where the shots weren't fall. And yes, you couldn't contain the two-man action. And yeah, Aaron Gordon was eating at the rim. But this was probably there for you if a couple things swung a different way. And to your point was about, like, the importance of the offense and the focus and the lean of the offense, that's where I'm looking at Jimmy Butler and just the way you are and saying, why were you not attacking and pick and roll? Why was that not a point of Mee says, how did Nicola Yokic and Jamal Murray end this game with three total fouls between them?

That tells me you're not attacking them enough. And that's a disposition thing. It's an approach thing. Obviously, Bam was able to be, I think, relatively successful, given the shots and opportunities he had. But you're right. That is not going to carry you to any kind of success in this series. A bunch of Bam at a bio, mid-range jumpers.

So I think they have three choices here. And they can do fits and starts of all of them, actually. But to your point, maybe they just are emboldened by the second half. In the first half, they really got punched in the mouth, and it was tough to recover from that. even when they started to shoot threes and get back into the game, the lead was so insurmountable that it was really just catching up just for the sake of it, rather than actually coming back into the game.

Are there ways, Rob, that you saw where they can generate more opportunities at the rim, considering where Jimmy is just maybe physically and just the amount of bounce that he has left after the ankle sprain or whatever it is at this point, is it getting bam opportunities for that? because as we mentioned, it did seem like he was settling for jumpers, although that's been the case on and off throughout the posties. Did you see anything from that game one? You're like, well, if they did X, Y, and Z,

maybe they can get to the cup more. Just based on, not making any major, like, go small, go big adjustments. Yeah, I think, like, literally you just gave them the same possessions again and the same spots on the floor, the same opportunities. And there's just a shift in terms of how they're thinking about those opportunities and what windows are available to them. It's not like Denver's defense was locking up every driving lane. the heat were actually able to get to the rim sometimes

in ways that made you wonder like why is this not happening more frequently? Why are they not taking advantage of these same positions more often? And a lot of that is going to have to come down to Jimmy just because the other guys on the team can't quite do it the way he can. But there's such an interesting thing happening

in this series and this dynamic with Jimmy Butler, with Bamadabio in particular because they're really the only size the heat have on the floor in a lot of these lineups. If they do attack the rim headlong, you're really opening up some of the transition stuff that Miami was able to cut off going the other way, right? Because when Yokic gets a defensive rebound, he'll push, he'll kick out,

the nuggets are so good getting out on the break. I thought that he did overall a very good job of getting back, scrambling, even if they were undersized in some of those matchups, trying to stop the ball and slow Denver down in transition. Part of what makes Bam relying on mid-range jumpers and all these things he got in game one work is no matter what happens, he is on the other side of the basket from Yokic.

And so even if Yokic gets the defensive rebound, Bam is hustling back, getting back in transition, cutting him off, slowing down Denver's offense. That might be valuable, maybe even more so than like Bam getting inside more. And I think what makes me a little concern for Miami is, yes, we're saying they need to attack the basket more. Obviously, they need to be more effective drawing foul.

Like, you just are going to need more than two free throws. But we've also seen Jimmy and Bam in particular miss so many shots low right at the basket over the course of the last series I'm a little worried about them attacking so much pump faking a bunch once they get down there missing shots and then all of a sudden Denver is sprinting out the other direction

like it is such a precarious balance that you can understand why Miami might be thinking about things just in terms of like the overall orientation of the floor like what are we willing to give up what are we willing to live with what do we need to be cautious about even as we're trying to score Yeah, and who can Who can Miami

credibly ask to get paint scoring from outside of Bam and Jimmy? There were moments when Caleb Martin Jay Cole's protege was able to get was able to attack

Boston in the previous series but these are off of closeouts which are off of what Jimmy's penetration right? Like they only have to guys that they can actually say like here here's the ball go to the basket with it right and so it's got to be those two guys that do it and it makes me wonder if they they shouldn't be trying to lean more into the threes man like fire up even more threes well okay so that's probably option number

two which is maybe we go a little bit smaller and in particular maybe we're buoyed or boldened by the performance of one heywood highsmith later on in the game maybe you don't start him but, was what do you think about the idea of maybe adding him as a more, like a bigger part of the rotation? Yeah, I'm, I'm all for adding offense, right? Like, I'm already, that's to me, that's where my mind is for this series. I mentioned this the other day on Ryan's show, but like people don't realize the last time this team was full force in the playoffs was the bubble, right? And I think the reason why the clippers wasn't able to knock them out

was Doc's unwillingness to go small where it's like, if Montrez can't guard this dude anyway, if Zubotches his son anyway, make it harder for him on the other end of the floor. And so to me, Highsmith is in the mold of that kind of player that's going to allow you to spread these guys out.

I think we kind of brushed off the idea that Tyler Hero needed to come back for the heat to do something in this series. But his shooting will be sorely needed because I think there was ways that they were able to sort of shut off what Duncan Robinson was trying to do because they weren't as worried about the other shooters on the floor. They could divert resources to doing, to shutting down his off ball stuff. But I think if you have more credible shooters out there, all of that movement off the

ball becomes harder to guard. And then another thing, they need to watch some Draymond green tape. If Yokic is going to be doing some heavy drop on BAM, BAM needs to be crushing people on screens, okay? And if you crush that guy with your screen, that means the shooter has nothing to worry about. And they're taking it wide open. And now Yokic has to come up. And now, you're asking them to, you know, sort of second guess what they're doing out there. there. Those are the kind of things I think they should be trying to do. Yeah, it's almost a variation.

The idea of going small is a variation of the idea of making Yokic a score, right? Because that's essentially the dynamic you're creating is we're going to challenge Yokic to attack, even if it's even if it's Bamat a bio, but he's not going to have as much help. He's not going to have as much size behind

him. We're going to use that as kind of a premise to see if we can win some of the balance of this game. I think where that runs a ground, strategy runs the ground is Yokic in this in game one was so unforgiving and any time he had Bam on his back he was walking bam to the basket anytime he had a smaller guy on him he was demanding calling for the ball getting visibly frustrated when they couldn't get him the ball with Duncan Robinson or Max Trues on his back I think Yokitch might also just be a different guy

than when they played teams like the Clippers right like he he has a different approach in terms of just driving straight at and posting up these guys right into the dirt. I honestly don't know what's feasible or not because we can talk about why going small against Yokic won't work. We can talk about why playing Kevin Love and getting bigger in this series probably wouldn't work either. I just don't think there's a lot of cards for Miami to play in that regard.

Yeah, so that would be option number three here, which would be seeing if Love can soak up some of these rotation minutes, maybe even try to start him if he is shooting well enough. as we've seen, he's kind of gone in and out of the rotation based on how low he's shooting. Was, floated the idea of almost going small with him at the five. The other option would be to start him in the front court, playing in the front court with Bam, do something similar to what the Lakers tried with Ruehachamur. At the very least, love is a hefty boy, and he has the body to, at the very least, match up with them, as opposed to, for instance, a Haywood Highsmith, who I think weighs

about as much as me, but is like seven inches taller, which is not a good sign. and as we saw in the cross matches, Aaron Gordon in particular, was doing a lot of damage against Gabe Vinson, etc. And so at the very least, maybe you steal a couple minutes or maybe even works even more than that, Rob,

where the size of love gives you enough while without sacrificing the three-point shooting. In theory. Yeah, yeah. I feel like a lot of the discussion about love has come from what you said, kind of mirroring this strategy that has been deployed against the Nuggets previously.

Put another guy on Yokic so that Bam can roam. I think where the Kevin Love part of that falls apart, I mean, for a bunch of different reasons. It's Kevin Love. One, it's Kevin Love. Two, that only works if the guy who's guarding Yokic is really athletic. And like, especially with the way the heated playing defense,

like they want to front Nicole Yokic with that guy. You're telling me, Kevin Love is just going to be seamlessly maneuvering around Yokic, taking away those angles, denying passes. It's just not something he can. realistically do. So to me, the benefit of playing love is much more on the last point you said, which is I'm not even going to put love on Yokic. Well, no, I'm going to put him on Aaron Gordon in just the hopes that Aaron Gordon isn't living inside. Like if you take away, I don't know, the eight or ten basically layups or dunks that Aaron Gordon got in game one, then maybe we're

talking about something. And so that's kind of the value to me of Kevin. Look, Kevin Love is probably going to give up some of those looks anyway, but he can at least give a little more resistance in those situations than Gabe Vincent can't. My thing about Kev Love is defensive substitution is that seven years ago, he was getting played off of the finals court for washed up Richard Jefferson, okay, for defensive purposes. So the idea is seven years ago, slower, creakier, same guy is now going to be inserted into this series against this incredible offense for defensive purposes, it just, to me, if you're

going to put Kev Love out there, it's because you're leveraging what he does on offense, and you know, you're giving them a different look in that way. Putting Kev Love in there for defense, like, even if he's not getting creamed, like, the way gay Vincent was on switches, that's a, he's a blow-by candidate. I think Aaron Gordon is quick enough to just get right by that, dude. and get over him. You know, like, just finish over the top of Kevin Love. This is, man, I do not envy Spolster's job in this series.

But this is, you know, I think we'll ultimately see Kevin Love get a shot in this series. For the same reason you see teams try all kinds of things, which is you just have to make the nuggets prove they can beat it at a certain point. I think when you're coaching a team in the playoffs, you can get so in your head about the domino that's four dominoes down, like, oh, they're obviously going to beat Kevin Love. Therefore we can't play him, and therefore we're going to go to this next move instead. Look, we saw in game one, not only did the heat throw the zone out in the non-yokic minutes. In the fourth quarter, they threw it out against Yokic too.

And that's not a look we expect to sustain. But in those moments, it slowed down what had been an unstoppable Denver offense to, you know, one that was good enough to win, but at least close enough that the heat could get back into the game a little bit. One that missed somehow outstanding looks, Rob, come on, man. The zone didn't slow them down. I'm not saying it did, but like you're saying, they missed some shots. Like maybe even...

Okay, it got them out of rhythm. You're right. That's literally the only point. And maybe that's what throwing Kevin Love in for a couple of minutes, whether it's starting or in the middle of a game does, is like, let's just keep throwing different looks. Maybe we'll get lucky with a three or four minutes stretch and they won't hit shots because they're a little bit out of rhythm or out of sorts.

But that's what Miami's playing for. Like, those are the margins you have to win to even be in these games. What about throwing Haslam out there? just really throw them off where it's like, whoa, like maybe Chris Quinn gets a couple minutes as a point of attack defender, take him off the coaching staff.

It couldn't hurt. Oh my God. How's Omer Yert7 looking? I'm like, I'm joking, but like I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Haywood Highsmith part five here

where your seven comes in and hits four threes. I mean, I've heard the thoughts out there of like, do you play Bam and Cody Zeller together? Like, do you,

do you go the opposite? opposite way of what was suggesting go ultra big. Let me tell you, that ain't it. That's not the answer. It can't be what you want to do. There's no good answers, but there are bad answers. And playing ultra big if you're the heat is a bad answer. Yeah, this is the part of the series or the playoffs where a lot of teams have certain guys

on the roster for specific matchups. They've been anticipating all season. And the heat surprise nature almost didn't prepare them for them. So they don't have like a go-to body off the bench in order for a Nikola Yoki's matchup. And in part, that kind of maybe helped them earlier in the postseason because they were dictating a lot of the matchup, the terms of engagement. But now the nuggets very much are. And they haven't been shaken noticeably by anything that the heat are doing.

And it almost feels like that psychological warplay that Miami had been waging all postseason. Now it's on the other side where Denver has the advantage. and they look pretty comfortable in game one of what is the first NBA finals game for a lot of these players. You know what's funny about that is if the heat were more afraid of Joelle Embed maybe they would have had that guy. But the heat had already seen,

oh, in the playoffs, we're fine with Bam and scrambling around and switching and trying to make teams like the Sixers and players like Embed uncomfortable, but Yolk is just a different kind of player. In terms of how he processes the game offensive which is a totally different guy. is Nikola Jovich

playable? Maybe he has some like Balkan tactics like just he has to stop this is getting bleak all right anything else

going into game two that you guys want to talk about um I think we got everything yeah ball arena also by the way we kept doing

we kept doing the Kaching thing for Caleb Martin who's under contract next year and has to play a whole other season before he can hit free agency. Bruce Brown is actually making money for himself. Hell yeah, he is.

We need to start doing that coching for Bruce Brown because that man is going to get paid this offseason. Yeah, the story has been told a few times now, mostly by Bruce Brown, but it was surprising that he didn't get as many offers in free agency that I think a lot of people expected. I do wonder if he has been so branded as like the small ball center guy, the point center in Brooklyn, that like people didn't recognize

that he could play just a more like a regular. Well, if he can play center at his size, why can't he play small forward? Like, what the, this seems obvious. But he also, by the way, he also, because I watched his LeBotard interview, he intimated that he was like, look, Sean Mark said he wanted me back. There were just other people. I don't know if he was trying to say, Kyrie. I don't know what he was trying to say,

but he was like there were other people who didn't share his feelings. And so that's why I wasn't brought back to Brooklyn. He's an interesting personality. Because honestly, when you watch Bruce Brown play, and especially as you alluded to Justin, the fact that he's been this evolving, shape-shifting, like do whatever it takes

and whatever my team needs kind of player, you might project the idea onto him that oh he's this like this quiet this humble guy who's fitting in man Bruce Brown is a fucking talker like he's a cowboy he's a cowboy he is talking shit all throughout these games he had a great interview on serious radio the other day coming into the series where he said that Yokic had Anthony Davis in shambles in the Western Conference finals and let me tell you he was right but like it wouldn't surprise me how in other locker rooms with other more sensitive stars. Maybe he would be confrontational in a way that would rub some people the wrong way. But in this one, I think he's really valuable. Denver is a team that needs a little bit of that

kick in the ass sometimes, who needs a little bit of confrontation. And he fills that spectacularly. If you're a team who's interested in winning basketball, actual basketball games, you should want a guy as versatile and Swiss Army knife-ish as Bruce Brown is, man. 100%. Incredible off-season pickup. Mr. Colorado. out. That's right. Since we're talking about locker rooms, why don't we pivot gears here and now talk about some of the new coaching hires that have been happening over the past couple of week or so.

Let's start first with the Sons, who made a bit of a surprise hire the other day by bringing Frank Vogel back from the ether where he had been for about a year now. They hired him for five years over Kevin Young, an assistant on Monty Williams' staff who'd been generating a lot a heat as a potential successor there. Was, what do you think about the hire? Because on the one hand, Vogel was sort of minted with the bubble run, winning a title. And so he

is on that short list of guys who have won a title. On the other hand, I remember him still as the really sad Orlando Magic coach with like a light beard. Like as a sad guy with the light beard, I definitely saw myself in him. But I

almost can't shake that version of him and square it with the new version. of him, which is like title coach, now coaching, KD, LeBron, and all of the stars. So I have a bit of a soft spot for Vogel because I remember the summer of 2019. I remember people, you know, having the sense that the Lakers were left with egg on their face. Oh, it was so embarrassing. Kauai strung them along and they got left with scraps, so to speak, like Danny Green and ha ha, ha, Dwight Howard.

Why would they want to do that? all of that stuff. And people were laughing at that team. And they came into the season. They shot out like a freaking cannon with the number one with a bullet defense in the NBA. And Vogel freaking orchestrated that, right? And so I got a lot of respect for what this guy does on defense.

And, you know, I talked to a couple of people after he got hired because I'm not going to lie. I was kind of confused by it. And they were like, look, this might be a D.I. Andre Aiton play to see if you can actually salvage what this guy's talents are and what he could do. And if Vogel could get this guy to play to his capabilities on defense and you got KD and you got Booker who's now a plus defender all of a sudden. I think now if you have now a dominant, really great defense and now you say, look, we have a

defensive-minded team and Booker and KD can sort of just take us home. on offense with their individual brilliance, I think you kind of got something there. Yeah, it's that combination of championship defensive coach for a team that needs a championship level defense, like Phoenix was just not there and really hasn't been for a minute.

And I think the other thing about the Vogel experience with the Lakers is it's very easy in retrospect to think of that team as oh, you know, AD and LeBron and this cast of capable role players who we now think of as being very different in terms of the reputation than they were before. You know, KCP and Kyle Cusman,

and Caruso, these guys earned their stripes in that run. But look back at that team and think about where those players were in terms of their reputations in their games then. And you see a team of like, again, a roster that was cobbled together that managed to play 9 and 10

deep throughout the playoffs. Something that Phoenix in his current run just couldn't do. They could not string together enough viable minutes from the supporting cast. And Vogel has proven to be the kind of coach who can do that. Like, he will get the good out of the Javille McGee minutes. He will get the good out of the Rajan Rondo minutes.

Phoenix needs some of that kind of alchemy right now. And maybe Vogel can provide that. So in the personality type, I think matters too, right? Because I don't know, for some reason I, or maybe this was just my own personal wish that they would get a coach who could hold cats like KD and Booker accountable who would have some level of gravitas and respect. They didn't go that route. But guess what, though?

This is why I like Vogel as a fit. you can be one of those hold accountable guys and actually have the credibility to do it or you can be like Vogel's sort of laissez-faire non-threatening. But there's a third option. I will remind you guys of a certain David Blatt, Mr. I won championships at Cheshka, however the fuck he was coaching before.

And this idea that he was supposed to command respect and everybody rolling their fucking eyes at this dude every single day. Vogel's not going to do that, which I think is important, too, with this group of personality. So I think there's a fit there, too, because having accountability guy only works if he's actually credible in the eyes of the people he's trying to keep accountable. Vogel's not that guy, but guess what? He's not going to annoy the shit out of people either. Do you guys remember when David Blatt said that among all the professions in the world,

a basketball coach makes more critical decisions second only to a fighter pilot. I do remember this. Just amazing. Amazing content from our guy, David Blatt. And you agree, right? Of course. Podcaster one, fighter pilot, two, head coach three. I feel like he said he wasn't, like he wasn't intimidated to meet ahead of state

because he had already done so and some pre. He was just saying some crazy shit all the freaking time. I miss him. insane ego. But yeah, Vogel again, he reminds me of that because he's just not, he's just the opposite of that. He's frictionless in that way.

Right. Maybe the approach isn't to hold people accountable, it's just to not play the game at all, because if you bristle against those stars, it's not going to go your way. And like, even he only lasted a couple years in LeBron's world because he ultimately had to be the

fall guy for the Russell Westberg experience. But it did serve him well for a certain amount of time. And I do think what you guys talked about of instilling a defense with role players is probably the key there because there aren't going to be a lot of options with the Phoenix Suns this office. I do want to talk about the next step for a lot of these teams that just hired new coaches. And the next step is really figuring out who is going to play around Booker and Durant. Chris Paul has a non-guaranteed contract. I believe half of his $30.8 million salary for next season isn't guaranteed.

until late June. So just before free agency starts, he's a potential someone you could turn into just bench, right? Just other players, which they did not have in the postseason. DeAndre Aiton, maybe there's a move there where they ship him out, maybe the Dallas or somewhere else, and get other players in there. Rob, do you think that's, like, number one on the list,

both for Vogel and the Sun's writ large, which is just figuring out who else we could find to soak up some credible minutes for this team. Yeah, and that's where you're already running into a hard choice as you consider your future between what you want and what is viable. Because if we're talking about DeAndre Aden and Chris Paul as trade candidates, I'm along for this ride of what we're describing on this podcast, of part of Vogel's job being what can we get out of DeAndre Aten defensively.

But the reality is that Aiden is more tradable than Chris Paul, even with all of his caveats, even with every question that we we've had about how he floats through games. His salary, where he is defensively, like, look, there's lots of reasons you can doubt D'Andre Aidan, but he's just at a much different point in his career than Chris Paul is, and at a very different price point in a way where even with the non-guarantee, it's just kind of hard to cobble together enough salary for a deal that makes sense for Chris Paul. And I kind of think, you know, trading Paul is easier.

I don't even know, though, that we'll see it in the offseason if it happens. it may be one of those deals that has to wait until that December 15th deadline, just so there's more salary that can be moved, just so there's more contracts that can be included and cobbled together in a potential deal. Because if you are going to pick and choose, Paul is probably the first player out the door. I think he's better than DeAndre Aten. I think he's more valuable than DeAndre Aden,

but he's significantly older. And if the Aten Gamble pays off, Vogel can get the best out of him, that's a totally different kind of experience, totally different kind of foundational piece you now have to add and really consider as you're building out. around Booker and Durant. So you have to look at it that way, but man, I just have a hard time seeing, even if you're

looking at primarily constructions that are, can we get two role players who we can depend on in the playoffs or Chris Paul? Show me the team that's giving those guys up for a point guard of Paul's age. Where is the deal that makes sense for that kind of transaction? Also, this is the same team that everybody thought was coming out to West going into the playoffs. Like, there's still foundationally that group. If you want to get rid of Chris Paul, like, to me, it's just for injury reasons more so than his actual play. And what he could do is just a doubt that he could actually stay on the floor into April and May.

And if you're lucky, June. Yeah, I understand that. I understand it. But, you know, you wonder, to Rob's point, what do you even get back for a cut and loose a guy that good who you just, I don't think he's, you're going to be able to get any true value for it. So Phoenix currently has six players, maybe seven with a team option for Ishwayne Wright, under contract for next season, two of whom are partial guarantees in Chris Ball and campaign, at least for the time being.

They need a completely new team around their four guys if they do end up keeping that. And so the work has got out for them. I assume a lot of these guys could be brought back pretty easily. don't think the market for Jacques Landel like really boomed during the postseason. He was pretty good. This podcast, I thought he was very good. Yeah. But let me tell you, the Miami Heat could use Jack Landale right now.

It's true. Or is back beyond them. Yeah. So honestly, I think the bigger question is on a front office that, I mean, I've dinged them in the past. They're just like the moves on the fringes are going to matter. They've always mattered, but I think they're going to matter more for a team like this, where you need to be finding and unearthing the Austin Reeves of the world.

Like Landell is one of the successes, but they need three to four of those guys to build out of credible rotation. You need to have a team here. And just based on the quick back of the envelope math that I'm getting from basketball reference, they're at $165 million next year. And so we're talking about repeater tax. We're talking about second apron problem. So this is going to be really dicey, you know?

I keep coming back to the victory lap our guy Isbiyah took just right after trading for Durant. But it's the type of thing where it's like getting a player of Durant's caliber is the toughest thing in the NBA. But then after you get him, everything else literally becomes the most difficult thing in the NBA. It's because of how many other complications it provides. But like it's going to be a fascinating offseason Phoenix regardless. Well, here's the good news is when you have Devin Booker and Kevin Durant as your best player,

Yes, you have to fill out the rest of your team, but all of a sudden you have lots of different options about what that team can look like, right? Devon Booker can be a backup point guard, can be a primary pick and roll ball handler. Kevin Durant can do some of that stuff. KD could be in the playoffs, your full-time backup five,

if that's how you want to style your team and you want to get a four alongside him who makes sense in that context. So, you know, obviously it's hard to walk into any summer and string together an entire rotation based off of like salary cap exceptions and minimums. But if you're going to do it, start with two really versatile wing, like combo kind of positional players who can do a lot of different things and then see what's available.

Like you can at least play the market in a different way versus if you had a true point guard who can only play point guard or a true center who can only play center. The sons do have some flexibility as far as what their eventual team actually looks like. Yeah. Speaking of teams that we don't know what they'll eventually look like, the Detroit Pistons, who hired Monty Williams for six years, potentially. eight years, it could reach up to $100 million.

The basic story we've been given was is that Monty Williams was going to take the year off. But Tom Gorse didn't take no for an answer and just basically stuffed his pockets and basically his entire closet full of jacket pockets full of money because this just completely obliterated the market for coaches to the point where like, I wonder what like Steve Kerr is now asking his agent for

or someone like Eric Spolstra, like how much more money he can get on an extension. What do you think about that move-wise? Because on the one hand, you could say this is kind of ridiculous that they went so over the top here. On the other hand, like, it's kind of what an owner's money is for, right? And there is no salary cap on coaches and some of these other stuff. So I guess you could credit Gore's in another sense that he's, like, willing to take

and do what it takes to win. So I remember somebody once said that how we know we've gotten to a place with black quarterbacks in football that is like semi-normalized where black quarterback can just be average just allowed to be average. Not Michael Vic, not Randall Cunningham,

not Dante Coalpepper, just average. We know we've reached equilibrium in the black quarterback situation. I'm sensing some withering, faint praise for Monty Williams. I don't like it.

I don't like it. I don't like what you're saying. Monty Williams getting this deal is all you need to. to know about the state of black coaching because it's not merited. He does not deserve to be the highest paid coach in the NBA.

He has not earned that. The fact that he's done it, more power to him, good for him. He's clearly got some great relational people skill, whatever you call it. Obviously, I think he's one of the better coaches in the league. I don't think he's a bad coach or anything like that, right? It's not like they're hiring

David Blatt or something and paying him all this money. But, man, you know, all of this money to coach a team that's going to suck for at least the next two to three years, that's incredible to me. Like, we know they're not going to be good. Like, there's no scenario where Detroit turns into, like,

I don't know, the Sacramento of this year. That's, they don't have that many competent players on their team or players that have proven themselves in the NBA to be competent yet. And so that's why I'm surprised by this. Like, they are going no. nowhere soon. Maybe they're building towards something. Maybe they're young guys. I'm still a big Cade Cunningham believer. I just love his sort of temperamental makeup and his game, his feel, his IQ and all of that stuff. But, oh, yeah, producer Ben just reminds us, the wise man.

Wise man is over there. Maybe their future is bright, but their present is anything but. see these two things are definitely related right in terms of why do you pay moni williams this much money to come coach a team that's probably not going to be good for a couple years and the answer is that you hope he can build them into something that can be ahead of schedule right you know especially when you think about where does the foundation of a team come from where does the identity of a team come from maybe kate cunningham can be the kind of talent ultimately at the end of the day who can set that kind of line for your team right we see it with with guys like you Yokic and LeBron and Steph, who's like, you're so talented. You have a style of play that feeds into the way that other people play. Maybe Kate is that kind of prospect ultimately. We'll have to see kind of how his career turns out because he's barely played NBA basketball. But the other way you get that is you build it top down from your leadership first and foremost. And the Pissons are team that have a lot to figure out in terms of how their whole organization and operation is going to run.

Monty Williams helps fill some of that void. He helps, you know, create some of that culture of accountability. we were talking about with teams like Phoenix, with other franchises, and then you retrofit the roster ultimately with players who can embody that kind of vision. And look, Monty Williams is a very rich man. I don't think anyone is saying he's the best coach in the NBA, but he's a good, coveted coach on a market that had lots of names involved. And this is what it takes to get good coveted coaches to come to teams that aren't going to be very good sometimes.

He's going to restart the auto industry with that type of money, you know? Just pouring it back into the community. But the thing is, look, this is a different situation, but it does remind me of Phil Jackson in New York, where he clearly did not want the job. And then the freaking salary got to a point where it's like, I can't in good conscience say no to $70 million. Like, you know, but at least Monty's done this job before.

So it should turn out better than it did for Phil in Gotham. Well, especially like Monty Williams, by his disposition and what he values and the way he operates is a good coach for a young team. It's just that he's over qualified for that job. And so you know, I'm saying, you know, paying $70 million to him to come do it.

Yeah. As interesting as it is to figure out what's going to happen with Webbenyama in San Antonio, I think it's actually a little bit more fascinating to see all the teams that base their entire futures around the potential of drafting him now scramble to figure out some sort

of identity and some sort of pathway to competition because you're not only seeing in Detroit, but you're seeing in a team like Houston where they're like, uh, James Hardin. And like, what do we do with this number four pick? You guys want this?

And Detroit, and it's all in the rumor mills. So who knows? But like, there's been talk floated that like maybe they would be up for trading that number five pick for a veteran. It's just like everyone is now scrambling because a lot of these teams and more specifically the team's ownership is probably going to be saying like,

well, what is the result of all of our suffering for two, three years now. And if you're a team like Detroit, this might be an easy way to not get rich quick, but get competent quick. Like,

they have some young talent. And if someone like Moni can just organize it in a way that's competent and show like progress, I think that's going to be a win. And we'll say the quiet part, quiet keep Troy Weaver's job. And allow him to potentially keep stacking

failed center after failed center after failed center. If the Pistons had won the lottery and they were drafting Victor Web and Yama and let's say they still wanted to hire like Monty Williams is still their guy is the Monty Williams deal like $20 million cheaper than this because there's just more appeal

in coming to coach Victor you'd have to assume so yeah instead of instead of instead of going into the negotiation make me the highest paid person in the entire industry

that might not have been as negotiating point. That's what we had to do for Waz, actually. Oh, yeah. Make me the highest paid podcaster in the entire history of podcasts. But speaking of the business would be so long.

I'm coming for you, Joe Rogan. Speaking of the coaching salary market, though, I don't know if you guys caught Adam Silver's press conference, but easily the funniest moment was it was lobbed to him. You know, there's these incredible coaching contracts that are reported that are

coming out, you know, obviously alluding to Monty Williams' contract, do we need to at least consider, like, coaches' contracts being in some kind of cap system to equalize the playing field and the market for all teams or whatnot? And Adam Silver's response was just to explain what a salary cap is and the way it worked without answering the question. He might have. I just thought it was a sensational, like, I'm just going to sidestep this and not even remotely entertain the premise of this question. No, I mean, again, I do give Gore's credit for paying what it took to get someone of Monty's caliber to do so.

And I'm sure his owner, brethren, and sisterin are not happy about the insane overpay. So, kudos to him again for doing that. And Monty Williams' family, I'm happy for y'all. But geez, Louise, my goodness. On this podcast, we're in favor of anything that makes other billionaires angry. 100%. Well, well done, Tom Gors. Last one on the docket.

Philly hiring Nick Nurse. We talked a little about the possibility of this. It seemed kind of foretold in advance. So why don't we just jump right to the question, which is so obviously James Harden seemingly destined for Houston, potentially, maybe we'll see. Who knows? There has been a rumor, which, like, I actually spent a few minutes trying to track down the genesis of this rumor. I think it is specifically Fred Van Vleet saying like, cool on Twitter when Nurse was hired by Philly because apparently they have a good relationship. There's a clip

circulated of him saying like how much he loves Nick Nurse, yada, yada, yada. What do you think about the idea, Rob, of if they lose Harden, Philly, marrying Van Vleet and Nurse back again. They both put on the NN hats together at the press conference. friends. Does that, like, does that, like, get you going at all about the next chapter of the Embed co-pilot legacy here? I actually, you know, I hadn't really considered to sidestep your question. Are they just going to, like, you know, I wonder if part of NIG nurses deal is, like, you got to sell the NN merchandise and the Sixers team shop. Like, we got to get this in front of more people. We got to create some more outlets, some more interest for all this merch I have sitting

in my garage. I do think that, look, the Fred Van Gogh. Vindleet thing is being triangulated a little bit from some some approval tweets from some comments about Nurse from obviously the fact that look they like working together and you can tell from the fact that Van Vleet is definitely a Nick Nurse guy. Nick Nurse is definitely a Van Vleet guy by the fact that he basically refused to take him off the floor, almost ran him into the ground in the process because he trusted him to be out there and to make things happen. Fred Van Vlead is not a replacement for James Hardin. He's a very different kind of player, very different kind of outlook for your team, different talent bracket, if we're being honest.

I have a lot of respect for Fed of Van Fleet. All of that said, I wouldn't... And how does he fit next to Maxie? Well, that's a tough, it's a small... It's a small backcourt. I mean, Van Fleet's a better defender and can honestly guard

maybe shooting guard-styled players probably more effectively than James Harden can. But, man, I would love to hear Nick Nurse under Truth Serum. Would you rather have James Hardin or Fred Van Fleet as your starting point guard? I don't think... I don't think you need that. Did you watch the press conference?

Did you not see how he was completely caught off guard by the question of the second best player on his team's free agency? You didn't see that, Rob? I actually didn't see it. Oh, my God. He was also caught off guard because the reporter asked him a question. Nurse tried to sidestep it. I assumed out of fear of like tampering or whatever.

And then the reporter was like, no, no, you didn't answer my question, which was a very welcome to Philly moment. And he was like, all right, so what do you think about James? Harden coming back and he was like I mean James I would say James is a good player pretty close yeah it was just crazy how wrong foot he was which makes me think like yo james Hardin ain't coming back over there that's what that answer felt like to me right um and so you know Fred van Vleet I think you know as far as hard and quote unquote replacements I think you could do honestly do a lot worse um I'm

somebody who's a big fan of Fred Van Vleet and what what he brings to a team um i you know i openly root for the guy just think he has an incredible story and just as far as like the makeup of an NBA player like you it's hard to top for the stuff so to speak that fred van Vleet brings to the table but yeah no that man is not a shooting guard that man is not um the orchestrator of an offense that man is not six foot five. So, you know, as far as replacement goes, you know, that's tough. It's probably a bet ultimately if Van Vleet is the guy, is the replacement. It's a bet that Tyrese Maxey has a big step to take.

And the idea of them is a collaborative backcourt with Embed, maybe that can be enough. I don't know about that personally, but you could do worse. You could definitely do worse. We love Fred on this podcast. Or it's a bet that like Embed is just so good that all he needs around him in order to make like a number three seed in the east is just credible good rotation players, right? Yeah, I'm not mad at that idea. And also I think Van Ville, even if he's not as incredible a playmaker sort of eyes behind his head type of pastor like Hardiness. Because very few people literally in the history of the league are, right, in that way.

That's one of James Hardin's ultimate talents. He definitely organized a damn offense and make sure M.B. Gets a goddamn post-entry pass in big possessions against the freaking Boston Celtics in a potential close-out game. I'm just saying. I think Fred Van Vleet has it in him to accomplish that task.

I just want M.B. to have a new, like, number two every season now. Like, it's almost like a reality show. He's just no excuses? Yeah, he do. mean excuses every year. Well, I was thinking back on the Ben Simmons, and air quote, sweepstakes and how remember when we were like,

no, Darren Fox is not what you need in exchange for Ben Simmons. Or like Tyreys Halliburton, we're like, nah, they need a bigger name, a bigger star. And I guess the Hardin is that to an extent. But like, man, either of those guys right now, they'd be looking pretty good. Yeah, Deeran Fox and Embed would be kind of dope. I'm not going to lie.

I didn't see it at the time, but I was wrong. Like Fox's mid-range game would have been more than enough for where it is now to make that kind of that kind of yeah i thought ben simmons was trashed i didn't you get an actual competent NBA player for that dude i was like bring the air and fox on down um i do want to ask you quickly uh about and specifically i want to ask wise quickly about joe mazula is presumably coming back now or not presumably stevens said it recently uh and And additionally, apparently he's losing three potential assistant coaches to Houston. I mean Adoka is bringing the band back together just minus Joe.

And also this quote-wise from one Danny Ains, who really went to bat from Azula in the Boston Globe the other day. Which makes me think he's not the guy. Interesting. Okay. Well, why don't you go ahead then? That's with that because Danny Aange is, you know, you know how, y'all know Danny Aange and his sideways. He's always doing something sideways. So for him to come out and just give this full-throated sort of endorsement of Joe Missoula,

the team he no longer runs, basically some of his damn competition. To me, that's just Danny Ains just being a shithead and being like, yeah, yeah, no, he's the greatest. He's the next red airbag. I'm telling you, you got to keep Joe Missoula in that building. It's incredible. He's foisting Larry David style. Joe Missoula onto the Celtics.

I like it. You mean to tell me the Celtics are incapable of getting a coach that's better than Joe Missoula in there? Is that what you're trying to tell me? And y'all think Danny Ains actually believes that? Well, at this point, the market, like, I don't know who else they would turn to unless they really saw something in Mike Boodenholzor that he didn't do in Milwaukee.

Can I interest you in a dock reunion? Yeah, exactly. I will say, like, the fact that age explicitly said, and the quote is, I don't think there's anybody there that doesn't believe that Joe is better than M.A. as a coach.

I have never heard the executive of a completely different franchise letting judgments on past and present coaches of other organizations. The guy who got them to the brink of the championship last year and the dude who flamed out went down 3-0 with home court advantage.

What is this? What are we doing with this? We have to, Like, Danny H can't be trusted when he's speaking publicly. He's always got some type of agenda that he's getting, and guess what, that's his job. He's actually smart to be doing so in his public pronouncements. But Jesus Christ, everybody at the Celtic,

everybody, that's why the Celtics players were so mad when they found out that EMA wasn't coming back because they thought Joe was so much better than EMA. The freaking players damn sure didn't think that. And, I mean, who's more important than the play? players in that damn organization. This is just an absurd. This is just crazy, y'all.

This is crazy, talk. The more we talk through it, it really does feel like the equivalent of, I think it was after game one of the Eastern Conference finals when Jimmy Butler was like, man, if they were smart, they would really play through Marcus Smart a lot more than they did. It kind of feels like that sort of underhanded tactic. I think you're right, Was. I think, I think Aange is after something here. And look, Joe Missoula, look, I'm good for him.

They're giving him a shot. I think they need to get him some veteran assistants in there to help him. Like, they need to help him become the guy that they want him to be. He can't just do it on his own. He can't just do it overnight. And whatever, they did end up going to a game seven of a conference final ultimately. That's an accomplishment in your first year on the job, high pressure-ass situation. I don't think it's a crime that this guy got to keep the job.

However, the idea that there is no better coach out there than Joe Missoula, is patently ridiculous. There are some stories that come across the wire that I just know that I have to talk to Wads about. One is the Unitas launch of their new footwear division. So I'm glad we can get both in. Are we getting some SponCon,

some product from Unitas for all the mentions on this pod? I guarantee you about 0.3% of the people listening to this pod have any clue what you guys are talking about with this United stuff. That's the fun of the group shats. It's an investigation more than it is. Real heads. Yeah, than talking about things in the news.

All right, let's wrap it there. Enjoy game two tomorrow, Rob specifically, but everyone else listening out there. Thank you to Eduardo Campo. Thank you to Ben Cruz on production. We'll see you on Wednesday for Game 3. See you.