The Ringer NBA Show - When Should We Panic About Houston? Plus, Duke Mania Is Here to Stay | The Corner 3 (Ep. 331)

Episode Date: November 2, 2018

Ringer staff writer Kevin O’Connor is joined by Jonathan Tjarks and Danny Chau to discuss the unfathomably bad Houston Rockets' start (2:27) and the bright futures of the Jazz and Nuggets (20:52). Then, the trio re-ups their patented "Draft Class" segment to talk about the tantalizing NBA prospects on the Duke Blue Devils (32:56). The State of the John Wall–Bradley Beal Union, Kevin O'Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up guys? It's Liz Kelly. The NFL trade deadline was on Tuesday, and The Ringer has tons of coverage up on the site. We have everything you need to know, including Danny Kelly on the winners and losers and Kevin Clark on why the trade deadline is more fun than it's ever been. You can check it out on the ringer.NBA.com. Welcome to the Ringer NBA show. I'm Kevin O'Connor, and we are the Corner 3. Joining me here in beautiful Los Angeles is Ringer Associate editor, Danny Chow. I'm feeling great right now. I'm wearing this slam magazine Vince Carter T-Chi. shirt. It's beautiful. Feeling great, looking great. It's a beautiful shirt. And from Dallas, Texas. It's ringing staff writer, John Sharks. What's up, guys? We're recording this at 2 p.m. on Thursday, which means last night

was Halloween. Do you guys do anything? Nope. I was a grinding tape, editing stories. Hell yeah. You know? There we go. How about you, John? No, I was definitely not grinding tape. I just come with takes. They're not very well grounded, usually. Me and my wife, I was Hans Solo.

She was Princess Leia. Our cat Yoda. It was pretty sweet. I dig that, man. I dig that. I was dressed last night with my date Adam's family coordinated outfits. We went to the Mac Miller Celebration of Life show. That's extraordinary time there. John Mayer, Chancellor rapper,

Siza, Travis Scott. Honestly, that show is a beautiful tribute. It was really emotional. Let's not bury the lead. You went as a couple in the Southwark. Come on. Anyway, today's podcast is produced by Bobby Wagner. Bobby, did you do anything for Halloween? No, I was just grinding away, editing it

two pods, you know. She's doing my job. That's horrifying. Some spooky stuff right there. Very spooky. Yeah, that's the thing. I kind of got Halloweened out. I think a year or two ago, me and my friends all wanted to go as, you know, the Scooby-Doo gang.

The only problem was we all realized that we all wanted to be Velma. And so all of us dressed up as Velma. And so we were just a gang of like five Velmas. There are pictures of me in the full orange turtleneck red skirt. It's a little terrifying, but I will glad that. share if you guys are interested. Please. Please, Danny. That was when I peaked in Halloween.

It's all about finding the right roles in your squad, man. Can I have five Thelma's? Yeah, I get it. I can see why you're Halloweened out at this point. But anyway, we're recording this at 2 p.m. Like I said, on a Thursday, which means we're not going to be able to react to Thursday night's games. But there is plenty to talk about, including the sputtering Houston Rockets, a team that

many expected to perhaps match what they did last season, a 60-plus win team, or at least reach 50-1. wins, but so far this season, the Rockets are one in five. One in five. Really struggling on both ends of the floor, bottom 10 offense and defense of rating so far the season. And they just don't look anything like themselves, do they, Danny? No, I mean, if you look at their average margin of victory, or I guess in this case, average margin of losses. Margin defeat. Yeah, it's negative 10.5. They're not just losing. They're getting smoked. It's not like the Lakers losing a lot of close games. The Rockers are just getting smoked.

Yeah, and that's kind of the thing, right? When I think over the summer, Darry was like, oh, he was responding to all of the naysaying about, you know, the lack of moves or the lack of, you know, important moves. And he was just like, well, the most important thing we could have had was Chris Paul getting healthy again. And yet, where are we now?

Where are we with these rockets? And that's part of the issue, isn't it, John, that, you know, you do have Chris Paul back, but James Harden at this time has an hamstring injury. and for someone like him, whenever he comes back, part of that stop on a dime ability, whether it's jukeing past the defender or pulling up from three, you need your hamstrings.

And I worry long term for that if he's not able to get back to the same James Hardin. I mean, yeah, they can't rush him back. No matter how bad they are right now, he's too important. And like even James Ennis, this team is not deep. That's what really jumped out to me watching them. They're playing like Isaiah Hardinstein. Who even knows that is? Mal Carter Williams,

Gerald Green, like this is not an MBA caliber bench. Right. Yeah, ultimately right now, their defensive communication is bad.

And it seems like oftentimes the only guy that's playing hard is PJ Tucker, which isn't a surprise that he is, but they're not rebounding. Clit Capella is getting pulled

away from the rim, not really rebounding at the same level he has in the past. I mean, he got his fat contract, man, you know, everyone's same pre in his stuff.

I don't know if that as much as just like, it's the team is just a mess right now and Carmelo Anthony. I mean, I wrote an article last month in the ringer about how let's leave this

a chance, right? Maybe a new situation for Mello, rejuvenated. Maybe this helps him. Are you taking that back chaos? He's happening. He is so washed. He is done. Here's what the great Stephen A. Smith had to say about this topic a few days ago. Carmelo Anthony is bad. He's bad. Stephen A nailed it. What's interesting to me is last year, the Rockets had such a defined style of play. And it relied on very specific individual players to basically thrive in their roles on either end of the floor. You had Chris Paul, you had Hardin and Gordon being largely the only playmakers on the team. And on the opposite end, you had Areza and Luke Bob Mutei, who are like genius defenders for their positions, figuring it all out on the fly in this switch-heavy defense.

You lose those two guys, and suddenly you're looking at the death chart, and you're like, how do we even recreate this? It's like John said earlier, you're relying on Isaiah Hartenstein. You're relying on James Ennis, and I don't think James Ennis has necessarily been horrible. He's just not been. He hasn't played that much. He's been out-hangered. He just hasn't been Trevor Arisa. And Trevor Arisa was a really important player for that team last year.

Ultimately, though, Carmelo Anthony, I think, is the primary reason. Why? Because teams are just targeting him. Every single time he's on the floor, they're going after Carmelo Anthony. Because he can't defend on the perimeter. But didn't they do that with Ryan Anderson last year? I mean... But he's been even worse than Ryan Anderson, I think.

I really do. I mean, and that's saying a lot. I guess that's fair, but man, that is. And ultimately, just collectively, the effort on that end of the floor is just not there. It's just not there at all. It's really incredible.

Like, when I was looking at the Carmelo's signing over the off season, I was just like, all he needs to do is Phil Ryan Anderson's role. For us to say he can't be Ryan Anderson, that's dark. Yeah, but here's the thing, though. Anderson had Eriza,

Mamba Mutte, Tucker around him, right? They had, like, guys who could hide him on defense. And those guys are gone now. Let's just call a spade a spade. they got a new owner he didn't want to pay these guys now are seeing the result of that I have mixed feelings on that John

I think with Arisa he got overpaid for one year by Phoenix and then with Bahamute his shoulder injuries maybe they decided ultimately it wasn't in the best interest to bring him back go with some younger options

and try to you know go with an upside player on Carmelo Anthony and so far it just has not worked one bit he's not even more of a downside player though yeah I mean yeah I guess if you're Darry

you really just all the talk last year about risk profiles, you really just have to take that swing. If there's even, you know... No, see, I think he just has owners don't pay for his players. What's he going to say, like, my owner's cheap?

He's not going to say that. So he has to give you, cook up some nonsense stuff to tell the media. I think the one interesting thing with Houston is they're still doing very well in isolations, right? They're scoring 1.2 points per possession on isolations, which is pretty similar to last season. It's just everything else.

They're not shooting the ball well. Nobody is shooting the ball well on that team at all. They're not scoring well in transition either So part of it is like, okay, let's give it time and see if this offense starts clicking. But ultimately it's the defense that's the difference. Yeah, I mean, to me, if they can get two, three and D six foot eight wings,

they'll be in pretty good shape. Well, where are they coming from? Where are they coming from? Where would those guys be? I don't know. You know, is there any solving this, Danny? I mean, at this point, I am looking at that Jimmy Butler trade, whatever.

What was the offer? What was the last reported? offer that they had on the table. I think so when it was reported that was four first round picks and then Marquis Chris and Brandon Knight who is done it's two players who aren't worth anything right right I think what I heard is that it could also just be three first round picks okay but I wonder if maybe that's like a a sliding offer depending on what the player is in the deal if you're giving a better player then maybe you can only get two picks or you get only three picks ultimately it seems to me like they ask to be a three-way deal though right

because tip doesn't want picks that's just not going to happen well I mean and That's why the deal is probably not going to happen with Houston. I would be surprised if Houston ends up landing Jimmy Butler compared to what either one of the other teams that have ever been reported, whether it's a team like the Clippers, if they want to hop back in, or even a team like Dallas, if they want to hop in or anybody else, Miami, they can do better for what Minnesota wants. It's as if unless Glenn Taylor steps in and is like, we're going to take a forward thinking look at this trade, and we're going to take a lot of picks from Houston, maybe with mineral protections as well. So basically, I had heard some stuff about Gordon and Tucker at various points in these talks being included or not being included.

If they were included, would you do a Butler trade? I would give up Gordon in a trade. I would give up Gordon probably with two first-round draft picks. I think that's fair. And if I'm Minnesota, that has to be appealing. Eric Gordon's a really, really good player. He really is. He would help that.

No doubt about it. I think Gordon, granted his free agencies coming out. and he turns 30 on Christmas this year. Yeah, I still really like his game and think he would be a fit for Minnesota. I would personally rather go the younger route if I'm the wolves, but it doesn't seem like they want to do that. They want to continue trying to build,

and why wouldn't you? You have Carl Anthony Towns. You have a lot of money investing into Andrew Wiggins. Ultimately, that's what you're going for in a deal. I think if you can find that balance, though, it could be good. I think for Houston, if you want to aim a little lower, maybe someone like Jonathan Simmons, Kent Baysmore.

Like, just get some 3-&D guys. Those guys could probably go out for one first-junk pick, and that could actually happen. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure the Hawks are definitely amenable to trading Baysmore. He's certainly been on the trading block for, feels like two years now. I mean, the Rockets almost signed him, what, two years ago?

If we're being real, though, do these guys move the needle at all for them? No, they don't, right? Well, give them defensive players. I think you still have Hardin and Paul, and you put the defense around them in DePella, too. If you're going off the premise that

basically all the rockets needed last year was just to be healthy. And if you can just recreate what they did last year with a few more defenders. So you're saying Chris Paul gets back to being Chris Paul. James Hardin stays healthy and gets back to become the MVP caliber player that he was last year. And then you get guys like, you know, Baysmore, Marvin Williams, who knows. Ooh, Marvin Williams would make a good name too. Yeah, guys like that who, you know, can defend multiple positions, shoot the three. And then suddenly, who knows, you know, the rockets were really.

really, really good last year. Yeah, I mean, let's stop, forget about the Warriors. Let's get back to the playoffs right now. We have hardening, we have, Paul. We get to the playoffs, something can happen. But we've got to get back to the playoffs. We've got to get some defense in there. That's the key thing is with this really, really slow start and some tough games coming up as well,

what's been bad so far could get worse for Houston. But I wouldn't give up on them yet. With the shooting, it hasn't been where it has, where it needs to be yet. Ultimately, though, it's the defense that concerns me. We'll find out over the course of time whether that pans out for them. the other team, it's probably in worse shape. Way worse shape. Washington Wizards.

It's his KOC's favorite time of year. We're already in a blow-it-up mode. Blow it up! Oh, man. Yeah, it's, um, I don't want to say long overdue for Washington because the back court obviously has significant potential with Beal and Wall, but the rest of that team is just not working, Danny.

I mean, they might be the most dysfunctional thing in D.C. right now. Oh, goodness. That is a take. That's, that is a take. That's some spice for NBA desktops. Yeah. Right. Yes.

That space is really hot John. How long did you have to set that up? That was beautiful. Were you sitting on that? No, it just came to me. I was just thinking about it. I was reading the ringers coverage of politics today. And I was like, you know what?

It was pretty bad too. Where do we start with Washington, Danny? They have so many issues. I don't know where to start. I don't either. Mainly because, look, they have to make a trade, I'm assuming. But at the same time, what do you trade? They're locked into this salary.

cap hell for the next three years. If you trade away Auto Porter for... First of all, who's going to be taking Auto Porter at $26 million at the production he's going at? Can you get a fair trade with that? I've been saying for a while Harrison Barnes

for Otto Porter. The Mavs would do that, I think. You think the Mavs would do that? Auto Porter fits more with Luca because Harrison's an ISO player. Auto's more of a ball mover better defensively. I'm into that. I think Harrison Barnes, high character guy, the senator goes to D.C. Senator Barnes.

I don't know. He's, he'll have his contract. That dude's not fixing the entire locker. Yeah, that's what he clears, he clears cap space,

though, and he gives you a good player while clearing your space a bit. He does help clear cap space, but ultimately for this team, right now it just seems like a lot of me, me, me, auto porter taking shots early in the shot clock,

Austin Rivers, Markeef Morris, guys who traditionally like taking their shots when they have an opportunity. Right now, I mean, Dwight Howard supposed to come back Friday night. Ooh.

Yeah, exactly. However, however, I realize I'm going to get myself on trouble here just like I did it with Carmelo Anthony. But maybe Dwight can help. They rank last in defensive rebounding. Their room protection is non-existent. Maybe Dwight can help. They are horrible. OK, see, embrace your inner bomber.

Let's trade Wall or B. I don't get this thing. Well, before we get to, like, just detonating the team. You do need to see how it looks with Dwight Howard. Maybe just having a defensive remoder helps. Maybe having a little bit extra room protection helps. I'm going to get some back to like 500 maybe, but at some point, let's do something different. It doesn't change the fact that they don't have an identity offensively.

It doesn't change the fact their defensive communication is just horrific. Those guys don't really talk out there. There's a long listed issues on this team, and you're right, John. There might need to be a change that's made. I remember two years ago, one of the first things. Yeah, you reported that. I remember that. That was a good article.

Two years ago, I wrote something on The Ringer, just reporting about how, like, Wall and Beal aren't best friends. You know, that's just part of it. Like, Wall wasn't happy about Beal's contract, and Wizards fans understand we weren't happy about that, but it was true. And those guys can coexist. You can coexist with people and, you know,

be playing on a team when you're not best friends. And, you know, I looked back at that article this morning, and there's this quote from Nenay I had at the end. In 2013, Nenei said, quote, our young guys must take their heads out of their butts and play the right way. because I'm getting tired of this. 2013,

oh my God. 2013, five years have passed now and we're having these same chemistry issues on Washington. So if you're the front office, maybe you do need to pull the plug and change something on this team. I think as a site, we've been ahead of the curve on this.

Like Chris Almeida, one of our editors. Shout out to Chris. Yeah, he's been on this train for years now. He had a piece that was titled very simply, very effectively trade John Wall. I mean, he got so much backlash off of that. But at this point, you're looking at a point guard who, in the final year of his contract player option, we're looking at what? $47.3 million in the 2022-22-3 season.

Shout out clutch sports, man. That's some good agency right there. You know, if we're even around in that time, that's a lot of money to pay to John Wall, who I think, I've said this before, is the worst elite point guard in the NBA. I'm not sure if that's a compliment or not. That's such an arbitrary to stay. I'm just not sure. Look, I just think John Wall is overrated. I think he's been...

Okay, there you go. Save the middleman. Get to the point. That's a better take. I just think John Wall is overrated. He's a subpar perimeter shooter. I mean, he's not right of highly right now. He doesn't move off ball.

He can be a good defender when he wants to be, except he doesn't want to be enough. He's developed a lot as a passer, and I think that should be appreciated. As perimeter shot has improved, that should be appreciated. And he's ferocious in transition, but ultimately the leadership is not there. The defense is not there.

Comments like feeding Marcy and Gortat, that's not what you want. I believe it. I just think a lot of it comes down to John Wall. I do. And I don't think you can trade that contract. That's part of it. Who wants to take on that money? I think our boss, Bill Simmons, had an interesting idea about that.

Talking about selling John Wall to Miami. For who? So, Yeah, it would basically be some sort of like a three team three point guard switcheroo.

I think Mike Conley was thrown in there as well. To who? Mike Connolly to the Wizards. Draggich to the Grizzly's doing that.

I don't know. If I'm Miami, I'm not sure I'm doing that either. Yeah, but they gotta do something too, though. Miami is super capped out

also. They need stars. They're not going anywhere. The team is struggling right now. I mean, they have like the quote unquote, the, they can get John Wall in shape at least. They have that chemistry in Miami thing going on.

Yeah, at this point, at this point, this team is such a disaster that we're just throwing out literally anything. Do you have any ideas that involve Beale charts? I got one for y'all. So I'm thinking, how about Bradley Beale to the Lakers for Josh Hart, Brandon Ingram,

and some cap space filler or whatever? You get Josh Hart, a two card who can shoot threes. You get Ingram, a young guy with all-star potential. you have a new country around John Wall and see you see where it goes. I mean, if I'm the Lakers, I'm like, geez, why don't we just offer that

for Kauai Leonard or offer that for one of them? But that's, that trade isn't happening, though. I know. It's not happening. Beal's a great player

with LeBron. He's only 25. Yeah, I mean, that's a fair trade, I think. And Beal has gotten better pretty much every season of his career as well.

He'd be an incredible two options next to LeBron James. I think that's an impossible sell to the Lakers organization and fan base. I think they have... I don't know. Bradley Beal's a 25-year-old all-star.

I mean, he's a really, really good player, and he'd be even better than he is now in Los Angeles. I don't disagree, but I just think the optics in their, especially the way that the Lakers seem to handle their business. I don't think you give up on these specific young talents unless you're throwing like a godfather deal out there. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable giving up Ingram. I mean, I like Ingram too, but I think Beale is just getting on his prime now,

and he's like a 25-year-old all-star shooting guard. That's a kind of player I'd want for Ingram and a trade. I think that's a fair deal for both teams. I might be too into Ingram. I think he's really good, but LeBron is, you know, 34, and Beal's still really young too. Right. And Beal is exactly the right age

where LeBron cuts off the list of players he'd want to play with. Like, you can't be any younger than 24. That's why right now, like, LeBron's going through this adjustment process. It's just like, okay, well, I got to figure out how to play with 22-year-olds. And we aren't even sure how Ingram and LeBron are going to fit long term, right? Because Ingram's more of a point forward, not a great shooter. I think it kind of does work for them.

It takes up your cap space. I just want to do it if I'm the Lakers. If I'm the Wizards, I'd be ecstatic about it. Oh, absolutely. Put it this way. Even if it's not those names, John, if it's not Brennan Ingram, it's insert other younger player on the rise here. For Beale, you can get someone really good for Beal to trade.

For sure. If you can't trade John Wall. I'm not sure Beal's the guy I'd want to trade. I think he's a guy I'd want to try to keep. Unless I'm totally... You just said you can't trade John Wall. So what are you going to do? Unless you can.

All it takes us one desperate team. I wasn't sure a team would be able to trade. I wasn't sure the Clippers would be able to trade Blake Griffin either. And then they did. And they got a pretty solid return. They got Tobias Harris, who is good and only in the mid-20s. And they got the pick that let the Shaggildjus Alexander. Pretty good.

I mean, I guess the bigger issue for me is like, how can you let Grunfeld rebuild again? This would be his third rebuild, right? Like, he built these two teams. Why let him do it again? Why have him build this team up? That's for me where the big issue is, ultimately. Well, regardless of who's running the team, Wizards have a big enough fan base where I think they could afford a tank if they did go full blow it up mode, right? I think they have big enough market where like someday when the L.A. and New York markets are max slots are filled, maybe Washington can make themselves into a destination, which right now they don't have the cap to be a destination.

And when they did have cap, they didn't even get a meeting with KD. Right. So what timeline were you looking at here like five years from now? It could be a long time, man. See, to me, if you have Beal, if you're kidding, keep Beal, I mean, he's a 25-year-old All-Star. You don't only have to tank at that point. You can move around him if you want. We'll throw it out a pass of the weekend.

Friday night, we have Wolves versus Warriors. Jimmy Butler should be playing, Danny. He should be, right? Yeah, he said he would travel with the team. Yes, I believe so. All right. Well, I mean, this is as good of a test as any, right? Like, it was what?

Two and a half years. A test of, you know, where the wolves... We know where they are. Yeah. Come on. Like, honestly, it was two and a half

years ago when Carl Anthony Towns had like an incredible defensive sequence on Steph Curry. Yes. It was his last good defensive sequence.

Yeah. It was like one of the best games I had seen in 2016 and I was just like, holy crap. This is like a symbol of something. This is like pointing to the future. Two and a half years later,

we're like, where are we with the wolves? We're nowhere. They're done. I wouldn't say that. I mean, like, not long term.

I think you can clearly tell they don't like playing a Butler anymore. Like they play with much more energy in the game against Utah and the game against Dallas where he didn't play. At this point, they got to move on because he's not going to stay anyways. And he doesn't really appear to maybe making them better now. Also, so what's the point? Right. I just want to see Carl Anthony Towns get back to that level.

You mentioned Danny. And that game against Golden State, he switched on to Stefan Kari and played magnificent defense, pretty much the entire game. Yeah, it was incredible. And yet from there, We haven't really seen him, you know, ever really established a comfort level as being that kind of first option. Like, we've yet to really see a full season of him other than what, his rookie season. When Levine got injured, it was like Cat and Wiggins.

Yeah, the end of the 16th, 17 season, I don't have the numbers offhand, but I think off the top of my head is something like second half of the year. For the last 41 games, he averaged like 28 and a half points with like 13 rebounds per game with insane levels of efficiency. And, you know, it would have been nice to see that last season, but it couldn't happen as obviously Jimmy Butler was added to the team. Yeah, I've got a stat for you guys. You want to know what Carl Townes is average in the two games Jimmy Butler's missed this year is scoring average? 28?

Yep. 31 against the Mavs, 28 against the Jazz. Like, sometimes it's not complicated. Right. Yeah, I mean, if we're going with amazing stats from this upcoming Wolf's Warriors game, we can talk about how good Steph Curry's been. You know, 33 points a game, he's on pace to average 55% from the field, 53% from 3, and 91 from the free throw line. The only player who has ever finished the season 50, 50, 90, is his coach, Steve Kerr.

Hmm. Oh, my goodness. And that has some crazy stats right there. So, 1995, 96. That was the year that Steve Kerr did it. His usage rate was 12.9. Curry's usage rate is 31.3. This is astounding.

When Stefan Curry won his first MVP, that year was just special to watch. I mean, every Warriors game was must watch TV. And there's been a little bit of Warriors fatigue after they added Kevin Durant where it's like, yeah, this is great to watch. Even in preseason, when I was at the game

on a Saturday night, it was like, yeah, seeing Curry and Thompson hit threes was great, but I wanted to watch Luca Donchich's debut, and I didn't get to see it. But now, with the way the season... That's a true draft hipster take right there. I'm proud of you. I was proud of you.

I'm proud of that one. I played great against Beijing. Anyway, with Stefan Curry, they have become must-watch TV. You can. They really have with the way Steph is playing. And if Clay continues after that incredible game you had on Monday night, they are becoming a must-watch team again. And one thing I've noticed they're doing this year is they're giving Steph time with a second unit.

Because last year it was always Steph and KD, they'd come in and they come out. Then Clay and Jiamon come with a second unit. Now Steph's playing with a bunch of reserves. And it's like, shoot every much you want, bro. It doesn't even matter. You're playing with four scrubs. That's helped him too. Do you think Curry, I mean, odds are he's not going to do 50, 50, 90.

But I mean, let's just say he drops to 48% of him 3. Sure. He's 50, 49y still. Can Stefan Curry win MVP this year? I think so. I don't know, man. You got Janice in the East, the best player on the top team in the East. Like, he's got less helping stuff in Golden State.

It's going to be tough no matter what he does, I think. Saturday Night, John, Nuggets and Jazz play. Is this the game of the weekend? I think so. I think it's a really fun game both this season, this kind of like, this Northwest Division. rivalry. There are two young teams on the rise. I'm kind of curious, Danny,

who has a better future, you think, Denver or Utah? I am a bigger fan of the Nuggets, but I also feel like the Jazz might have an easier path in terms of locking in a Western Conference final spot and potentially, you know, scaring a team into the finals. It's weird with the Nuggets.

You know, they're kind of locked in in their cap situation. but yet they're the fourth youngest team in the league. It's a weird situation that they have, and we're not really sure if the players that they have right now are going to be the players who end up maximizing Yokic's potential or vice versa. So I don't know.

I feel like the jazz, there's a template there that makes sense, and you have a lot of wild cards. Like, what if they don't keep Rubio next year? Ultimately, it comes down to the two best young players in each team, doesn't it? Donovan Mitchell and Nicole Yokic. How do those guys pan out? I think with Mitchell, we've seen the flashes. We've seen what he can be.

The question will be with him, how does this scoring efficiency develop? Can he become an efficient score from each level of the floor? With Nicole Yokic, he already is everywhere on the floor. He can score from anywhere. He's an elite rebounder.

He's one of the best big man passers in league history. It's about defense. And this year, so far, with their tweak system, where they're hedging more instead of dropping, he's looked better. I think really it comes down to those two guys which guy ends up reaching their peak and right now I think Yokic is a little bit further ahead than Mitchell

Yeah we're a pro Yokic podcast But this game will be fun to watch Yokic first Gobert Let's talk about a contrast and style at the center position Like are there two more different players in the league than Yokch and Gobert? No, utter opposite. There's fun of difference

Yeah, it'll be fun to watch that Will Yokch check him out on the perimeter Will they put Yokch on I guess on favors and let Milsap guard go bare with that pick and roll de defense. There's a lot of games within the game for those two teams. It's especially a tough matchup for Yokic too

because Gobert is perhaps the best big man defender in basketball. If not one of the best, obviously one of the best big men defenders in basketball. They'll take him on the perimeter. It's a different kind of matchup form. Gobert's right at the rim. Yokh can play the three point line. I don't know. I'm curious how it goes. It's interesting because we're looking at two teams that also

have gone through some efficiency number switcheroos. Like the jazz have suddenly increased their pace and now they're probably a better offensive team than they are a defensive team early on in this season while they kind of work out

the schematics of defending this league whereas the Nuggets have suddenly figured out what kind of team they want to be on defense and actually their half-court offenses looked a little sluggish to start off. With that Roe Barton, I think. They've been missing him. Yeah, they need another guy

who can handle the ball and create his own shot. For what it's worth, I think I'd take Utah's future over Denver, but it's close. It's really close. How about you guys? I'm Yokic all the way, so I'm going to stick with Denver. I think I'm going with the Jazz, but I'm rooting for the Nuggets. It's close. It's really close between those two teams. Either way, bright futures for both.

Then on Sunday, we have Toronto going to Los Angeles to face the Lakers. Hawaii's Homecoming. Raptors have the number three offense in basketball, the number 10 defense so far this season. John, have they done enough to show that they are the best team in the Eastern Conference? I mean, for now, I think they've been, I don't know, Milwaukee's pretty good too, but they've been great. Toronto has exceeded every expectation. They've been incredible.

They're so deep. They go like 11 or 12 deep. I mean, it's just, it's been fun to watch. Nurses done a very good job balancing this rotation out. Pascal Siakam's gotten a lot better this year. That's been really fun to watch him as Kim kind of emerged as starting four for them. Besides Kauai over DeRosen, what's different about this year's team? Well, I think Siakam.

So they're not starting Abaka and Jonas anymore. They're starting Seaccom at the floor. They're much more versatile. They're much faster. They spread the floor. better. They're much more modern than they were last year with two big men. Yeah, and Sergei Baca has really stepped up with some huge games this season. I think that's just a testament to having faith at him at the five. That's his position now. That was the thing. There were way too many

games last year where you're just like, okay, we don't need I Baca and Valentrudence on the court at the same time. Putting him at the five seems to have turned back the clock for Ibaka. It looks a little bit more like the Oklahoma City Ibaka, right? Yeah. Coming up, you know, with those fun teams with K.D. and Russell Westbrook. I mean, he's been really good in both ends of the floor. And then him at the 5 let Siakum and go to the rim. He's not much of a shooter. Like, those two works so much better than Jonas and Abaka, Abaka and Seacum.

That is, I think, is almost as big as Kauai de Rosen. Yeah, and we talk about this team being, you know, 11, 12 deep. Dilan Wright still looks pretty bad. Like, he's still recovering from injury. O.G. has missed a couple games. Like, this team isn't at full strength yet. And it's amazing how much better they look. than last year.

And a lot of it, you know, it's with the two guys that they brought in from the Spurs. Danny Green. Amazing. Danny Green has been outstanding.

Rejuvenated. Net rating God right now. And Canadian dollars helped do them look good for him. And for all the, you know, understandable talk this summer about Will Kauai get back to him

being himself? Will Kauai Leonard be the same guy outside the same Antonio Spurs system? Yeah, he is. He's killing it. He is killing it. And I'm not even sure he's 100% yet. I'm not.

I don't know if. I mean, you're still resting him, right? It seems like two or three games already. Exactly. He missed the Monday game against the Bucks, which is a shame because, Yonis missed it too. And he missed a game earlier this month against the Wizards, which they won. Their only loss was that Monday game against the Bucks. Other than that, they are undefeated with Kauai Leonard.

Look, man, I don't think his first step is quite where it was yet. He's getting closer. I think he's improved since preseason when we first saw him getting out on the court. But this guy, he scores from everywhere. his defense is still elite. Did you see that play earlier this week when he's just diving for the ball without looking? Like his instincts are unreal. Out of this world.

He's rebounding. He's passing. He does it all. He's looking like an MVP favorite. And that's the thing too. It's like because he's worked on his game so much, even with the grade first step right now, he's still dominating. He's so fundamentally sound. Like, Kauai is just great at everything.

It's really, really impressive. Right. Like stylistically, when I'm watching him, I'm seeing basically a, a 33-year-old Kobe is essentially that's a compliment yeah I like that so basically we're looking at a Kobe who

are you saying like 33-year-old Kobe with Scotty Pippin's defense is that where you're going I mean yeah and that guy should probably be the MVP it's gonna be a tight race I just gotta see Kauai versus Janus man those two guys they gotta play one and one

in a series that would just be so incredible we will get to see Kauai versus LeVron James though we will get to see that I think it's perhaps the stiffest test of the season so far for the Lakers. They face Portland on Saturday night ahead of Sunday's game against Toronto. So it's a back-to-back.

And they're in Portland going back home on Sunday. That's a really tough back-to-back for them. So granted Toronto's on the road. That's tough for the Lakers. And they've looked really shaky defensively still even in their wins against Dallas on Wednesday night. They squeaked that one out. They squeaked it out.

Yeah, that's a game where going into the season, you would think they should handle business. But they didn't. And they haven't all season long. I think the Lakers are going to be fine. because they have LeBron James on their team. But Sunday night against the Toronto Raptors, that game for them, I think, will really be a good barometer of where they're at against the elite of the elite

because Toronto is up there right now. Absolutely. It's time for draft class, guys. Throwback. I'm excited, man. It's back. To last season, we're going to do a little segment here because college basketball season starts on Tuesday, November 6th,

also election day. Make sure you vote. It really is Duke season. It is Duke season. That's it. Duke is going to be the top. of the season from an NBA perspective. In college basketball, they are ranked 11th heading into the season.

Perhaps they rise at the rankings over the course of the year, but for NBA draft doesn't matter. Zion Williamson, top pick in the draft, forward center, R.J. Barrett, a playmaking forward wing, and then Camberettish are scoring wing. Those three guys could end up being the top three picks in the draft, John. Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting. I did an article this week about for our college basketball previews. be talking about that.

Like, this is three six-foot-seven wings who can get their own shot. It's almost like if you had Jabari, Ingram, and Tatum on the same team in college. I mean, it really just speaks to how much of a coup this was for Coach K and this truly legendary recruiting class. Point guard trade drones as well, who is not going to be a top five pick, but he could be a mid-lottery pick, a mid-first-round draft pick. Younger brother of Tyos Jones, of course. And Joey Walker, right?

He was like a- Joey Baker. Joey Baker. I'm sorry, I didn't even know. They basically had to shoehorn him into this SI cover shoot to fit. So the headline of the cover was Fabist 5. And I'm pretty sure they just had to put in Baker just to make it work. Yeah, I feel like it's more about Fantastic 4 than a Fab 5.

But I don't know. Danny, who's the best prospect on that Duke team? I think it's RJ Barrett. I think he's the safest prospect of the three. And I think it's just so easy to project his success. he's smart playmaking, strong athletic wing who has all the physicality in the world. You don't know if he's necessarily going to be shooting it all that well,

but that's something we can kind of monitor. He shot okay in the preseason season. He didn't shoot badly. Right. Do you agree with that, John, RJ Barrett's best prospect of the three? I don't know. I go back and forth all the time. I can honestly see any of those three guys being the best prospect.

What's the argument for Reddish? I mean, he's the best shooter. Who's going to be the best shooter of those three is Cameron Reddish, right? If the NBA is a three-point shooting league, which guy could make 10-3s in the game? It's reddish. Yeah. He's 6'8.

He ran point in high school. He's pretty athletic. He's got the body, he's got the game. I was talking with my old boss, Eric Weiss yesterday, and we were just chatting about the RJ versus Zion debate that could end up occurring in NBA draft circles, right?

But we might talk about at some point over the course of the season. We definitely will. We will. We have a lot of Duke talk. Right. And with Zion, you know, heading into those exhibition games, It's like, we know there's more than just dunking.

But actually seeing it in live competition, that guy can play make. He can take the ball coast to coast. He's an elite rebounder who can go coast to coast. There's a little bit of Charles Barkley there. There's a little bit of a more athletic Blake Griffin. There's a little bit of like... I mean, it's crazy how athletic he is.

His size. It's insane. It really is insane. There's like a best case version of Julius Randall in there. There's Charles Brockley is, let's not underplay that. There is some. Markly in his game with his size at only 6 foot 6, with his elite rebounding ability,

with his athleticism, with his ball handling. He can score inside. He can handle the ball. This dude is a wing, but he plays a center's game. And I think in today's positionist league, like you mentioned R.J. Barrett, will he be able to shoot?

With Cam Reddish, the question is going to be about like, you know, consistency, intensity. Yeah. So his defense. With Williamson, like, that guy can defend multiple positions. He can handle the ball as a big.

And because he's, really a center within your offense, he doesn't need to be a 38% three-point shooter. He can be 34, 35% and be fine. I think Zion could end up being the best of the three. He's probably a five, right, the way the league is now? I'd say so. I'd say so. I'd say so, yeah.

Just put him with the five, whatever. It's funny because all of the comparisons that we had for Miles Bridges last year kind of go double for Zion. It's as if, you know... He's got 60 pounds of Miles Bridges, man. Like, imagine if Charles Barkley ate Larry Johnson. Like, that's my, that's my comparison for Zion, pretty much.

He's a freak of nature. With Zion, what are you looking for, Danny, heading into the season for him to become that clear-cut, number one guy on your personal board? I mean, this seems really niche, but I would love to see him become a better free-throat shooter because he is going to live at the line. There's no way you're going to be able to get him out of the lane without fouling. And so, you know, over the course of his high school career, he was shooting in the 60s, which is like fine for a center, I guess. But like, if you're going to be this playmaking, you know, guy who can basically do anything, you know, off short rolls and everything, he's going to get hacked so much. It would be amazing to see him shoot in the 70s. Yeah, I think for me, though, it's defense.

Like, if Zion's going to play a 5, can he anchor a defense, right? Can he, like, make the right reads? How does it in the pick and roll? that to me is the question because if we want to maximize Zion, we got to play him at the five. He's going to play at the five, an NBA coach has to trust him being the quarterback of his defense. And that's what I want to say this season.

I'm with you there. I think with the shooting ability from the free throw line and the three-point shooting, I look at that almost as the cherry on top, right? If he can become an elite defender that can anchor a defense, who can switch and defend guards and wings, as well as he defends Biggs because of his length and his just, I mean, he is so strong. He is so wide.

Okay, I mean, is he the best combination of size and speed since LeBron? Is that like crazy to say? When you factor in speed, yes. I think if it's like size and athleticism, Blake Griffin would be right there too. But I'm saying at 285 pounds. Those guys aren't 285. He's the Hulk.

You know, there are certain bigs in the league, and the NBA has such great athletes, but there are bigs whose athleticism just seems beyond what should be possible. Like, every time I watch Andre Drummond dunk, I'm just like, there's no way someone who's like 270 should be able to lift off the air like that. Yeah. And yet, I'm like watching Zion and I'm like, dude, he makes Drummond look like Yonis Valen tunis. Ooh, yeah, I'm just curious to see, like, how valuable is that much weight in the basketball court, right? 285 pounds is just such an outlier. Now, like, can you change the game with that side, with that kind of just raw strength?

Or is that kind of got diminishing returns at that side? That's what I'm curious to say. I think he can, man. I really do because when you think about it, he has not, speed is not an issue with him. It's not like he doesn't move well. His first step is extraordinary. It's not like he doesn't have a great first step.

It's not like he doesn't rebound well. It's not like fatigue is an issue. None of that so far seems to be problematic for him. So if he is able to anchor a defense and at least be average as a shooter and continue playmaking as well as he did in the exhibition games, I could see. him rising up to the number one spot because...

The other thing is length, though, too. He only had a 6'10 wing span, and we'll have to see how that plays. Because, like, will he get in foul trouble a lot jumping for... Like, if I'm going to get Zion, I'm pump faking him every time because I can't jump with him, obviously, right?

And that's where it ultimately could just fall back on RJ Barrett, a guy who besides his shot, which is not even a weakness. It's a average shot that could potentially be good. We're not looking at Ben Simmons here. Yes.

With RJ Barrett, there's really no weaknesses in this game. His size. He defends. He's a competitive. editor. I mean, he plays hard. There's leadership there. Everything I've heard about him off the court with how much he trains and how much Canada has invested in him with player development. I mean, he has everything you need to reach his full potential, whatever that may be.

RJ is the guy that I think will end up probably number one on my board. I think Zion could. Super safe. Yeah. Could. But I think RJ Barrett with the fact that he's a little bit safer, but still has that elite upside. To me, he's the number one prospect now heading into the season and probably will be exiting it as well. Yeah. I will say, though, I think don't undersell Reddish because, like, which one of those players would make most sense in Golden State, right? It's Cam Reddish. Like, if I can get one player who's going to be a volume three-point shooter and everything else, I think that does give him a lane to be the best player in this draft down the road.

The question with him, so I was at the Hoop Summit last April, and I read the Hoop Summit, they have a scrimmage where, like, the best players, they play like a bunch of local college kids. and Reddish, I've never seen a guy not sweat for an hour of basketball and score like 30 points. Like, I was incredible. He was not sweating. That's part of the problem now. That man scores, that is the problem.

But that man does score incredibly easily. Yeah, his scoring is very, very easy. Comes easy for him. I think scoring is a type of thing where that's never going to be a problem. It's about the consistency factor. How much is he engaged on offense where you don't need to just funnel the ball to him?

He takes it and makes it happen himself. Defense, how much is he going to be always focused? on the end of the floor. Yeah, because he has the ability to defend, you know, look at his build. It's like, he can defend four positions. He has a perfect body for today's league. 6-7, 6-8, 7 foot 1 or so wingspan. I think he's like 220?

I mean, he's a big boy. He's a big guy. And, you know, we were talking earlier about how he played, pretty much played point guard in high school. He had nine assists in an exhibition game the other day. He can play make. Absolutely. The ability is there.

I wouldn't underestimate Reddish either, John, for what it's worth. I just, if you're ranking those three guys. guys, where do you have them right now, Danny? I would do it Barrett, Zion, Reddish. You, John? I'll go Zion Reddish-Barratt. Keep it interesting. Who knows?

We don't know enough right now to rank these guys. And it's interesting because if Reddish does get buried, like he could very well be like a Devin Booker All-Star, a guy who, you know, kind of recedes into the background and then ends up being the perfect NBA player for the modern time. Some of those questions were there about Tatum, right, in college. So is he going to defend? can he do these other things besides score

and maybe, look, a lot of it depends on the situation. If Tatum didn't end up in Boston, we might not look at him the same way we do now. For Cameron Reddish, where he lands in the NBA will play a significant difference in the way he is really, the way he's developed. I think your situation plays such

an important role in success. For sure. It's too early for this. These guys haven't played the college season yet that starts next Tuesday. However, when it comes to assessing these guys, situation matters, and you're right, he could take a back seat behind Zion and RJ Barrett where we don't get to see everything from him

or maybe that could help him. Maybe he just averages nine assists per game, you know? Maybe he's asked more to play make. Maybe he's asked more to play defense and we get to see those areas of this game. And speaking of the college season, I mean, this will be the best game to watch them all play is the first game of the year.

They're playing Kentucky. Kentucky's loaded as usual. This is going to be an incredible draft hipster draft class game for a small breakdown. I can't wait for that one. Really quick, John. Who's the one guy to watch in Kentucky? probably Kelden Johnson. He's like a 666-67, do-it-all-wing. He's by far their best prospect. But they're loaded, man. They have plenty of NBA prospects up on that roster.

PJ Washington. I like him. He's good too. Him versus Zion will be really fun. I'm excited for that. Well, that was cool, guys. That's all we have time for today. Danny, John, looking forward to next Friday. Thanks, y'all. Thank you. Have a good one, guys. And thank you for listening to the corner three. Please give us a five-star rating on iTunes and tell your friends, tell your family about the show. Make us super, super happy if you do that. Special shout out to Bobby Wagner for producing the podcast and to my good friend, Elon, for listening to the show. Thank you again for listening. We'll be back next Friday. Have a good weekend. Hey, guys, Liz Kelly here. The big picture with our editor-in-chief Sean Fennacy officially has its own feed and is expanding its coverage to give listeners everything from Oscar Buzz to interviews with actors and directors like Jonah Hill and Ethan Hawk. You can get ready for awards season with expert Oscar analysis, box office results in all things movies. Sean will sit down with Hollywood's biggest filmmakers, break down the latest industry trends, and review new films with other ringer colleagues like Shea Serrano,

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