The Ringer NBA Show - When Will We Ever Get to Watch Zion Williamson Play? | Real Ones

Episode Date: December 13, 2021

Logan and Raja get to the shits today as they discuss the recent setback in Zion Williamson’s recovery from a foot injury that has prevented him from playing so far this season (0:40). Then they discuss whether Kevin Durant or Giannis Antetokounmpo is the best player in the league (29:30) and how Matisse Thybulle defended Steph Curry on Saturday (42:30). Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, Plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. No, man. Hey, rock. What up? Hey, Ra.

Hey, Ra. Rob. Rob, did you know we had two shows on the feed? I did know. We got two new shows. I knew this. We got two new. We got Lazz on Sundays.

And we got Jake Halman and Jonathan Sharks on Tuesdays. We're going to bring your NBA feed. All right. Let's get to the shits. Real ones. What's popping? Logan Murdoch here, Rajabell there. We are here for the Monday edition of Real Ones.

It's been a long time since we got to the shits, my friend. It's been a long time. We've been cadden off. for a long time. We have not been getting to the shit. We have not been getting to the sheds. It's facts. Oh, man.

I don't know. But let's do it. Let's get messy, bro. You know what? I feel like, let's do it. I feel like early season. There's been a lot of like real NBA talk.

And the shits aren't necessarily like, like NBA centric. Like what's happening on the court. It's behind the scenes like opinions. Like what's going down with said players. So today I feel like we will get to the shits. This is going to be player X first player. in 1980-something versus 1990-something. This is just going to be a...

We're vibes here, man. We have never relied more on the pre-pod meeting than today, right? Where we were just like, what's going on in the NBA scene? What do we want to talk about? Forget the NBA scene. Forget the NBA scene. What do we want to talk about? Well, let's do this for, can we like take them through a prepot?

Like, if there's any... What is actually fucking going on in the NBA right now? Like, we sat here scouring, yeah. Like, what could we talk about? There's nothing going on in the NBA of any real significance right now. Any real, I mean, I saw, you know, KD had 51. Fat, yeah. Best player in the league, you know.

Steph got locked down by Matisse Stuybal. You don't get to say that as, as, like, factual, though. Like, there's the debate out there. And yes, we had Bill on who took, you know, Janice, and I'm ready to have a conversation with you, but I can't let you just claim that. Oh, I can't just say that. All right, we're going to get to that.

We're going to get to that shit in a bit because I wanted to talk about, like, at least news for the day, which is Zion Williamson, right? And we've talked about Zion for a minute. And Zion, number one overall pick going to the New Orleans Pelicans a few years back. He was the sure fire, right? He was a sure dude. He was the guy that was going to save basketball in New Orleans, Roger Bell. He was going to do it. He was going to push this.

The New Orleans Saints, step aside. Drew Breeze, step aside. You're going into the booth. My name's Zion Williamson. I'm going to revitalize the New Orleans Pelicans. Well, that has not happened. And he has yet another setback.

The umpteenth revision to his injury timetable. Do we even have one? Let's just say he's out indefinitely, because that's really what it is, right? He had another setback. Let's look at what's going on. Let's read, let's read,

let's read the statement from the Pelicans on Saturday. After experiencing persistent soreness in his right foot, Zion Williamson went underwent medical imaging which showed a regression in the bone healing of his fifth metatarsal. As a result, the volume and intensity of his training will be reduced and extended for an extended period of time to help allow for further bone healing.

We've heard about this fifth metatarsal. We have heard about these things. That does not sound good, Raja. That doesn't sound good at all. It seems like ever since he started going back, his foot has gotten worse. You could talk about the weight issues. You could talk about all these things. It's hard to get back from any injury with any body type.

When I read that to you, what do you think? Trouble. Trouble. I had a fifth metatarsal. I didn't fracture it, but I had a fifth metatarsal injury that wouldn't go away for a season. And I took the cortisone shots in it. I took whatever I could to try to lessen the inflammation in it and get the soreness out. It doesn't go anywhere.

It just, it doesn't leave. I did not have a fracture, mind you. Mine was just a really irritated, like, sore foot out there, you know, on the right edge of my foot. And the nature of basketball and the movements that are required to play it aren't conducive to that thing healing at all. I haven't even introduced, like, the jumping and the torque that he puts on his feet or the weight. Like, I was 213 pounds, I think I played at. That's a large, that's a large human being. You saw him bust a shoe at Duke.

At Duke. Like, it was a meme. It was funny, but, like, have you ever busted a shoe like that? No. No. You're putting a lot of force and a lot of torque, you know, on joints, on appendages. And so when I hear that it's that foot, and I know David Griffin and company, I've worked with them, their rehab and their medical staff, I know Aaron Nelson as well, who's the head. trainer in New Orleans. He helped me get my son through a torn UCL in his thumb recently.

They will err on the side of caution almost to a fault. Like Nelly, I call him, was telling me what my son's rehab needed to be. And I'm like, fuck, man, I need to get him back. Come on, let me push it up. And he's like, no, don't risk it. Don't risk it. And so I know him to be super conservative and cautious. So when you tell me that there's been a setback after all of that, I have to say there's trouble. We have a problem. Well, there's precedent to this, right? Because I believe Kevin Durant had one of these two when he was, I think it was one of his last years at Oklahoma City. I think it was 14-15 season. Remember, he had a foot injury.

I believe it was the fifth metatars. I could be wrong, Rulins, you know, get on my head if I'm wrong. But I believe it was the fifth metatorsal. And he's lost a lot of time. Even when he came back to play, I think he broke it right before training camp. Even when he came back to play, he was Kevin himself. But the soreness made him miss the entire season. That was one of the first seasons where we saw Russ go be Russ.

And that's a hard thing to do. I think with this metatarsal, you can be good long term, but you have to be patient. If that means sacrifice in a year, that's what it means, right? But when you have, that sounds all good in theory, but when you have an organization on your back, you have people's jobs, stakes on your back, right? Right. You know, it's hard. How do the Pelicans navigate this?

because they haven't necessarily been a model of consistency from a basketball standpoint, which means from a behind-the-scenes standpoint, they have not been a model of consistency for the last decade, two decades since they've been in New Orleans. How do they, in a perfect world, how do they navigate this? And in an imperfect world, how do they navigate this? What do they do when their best? It's not like it's just, this is a guy on the end of the Ben's dealing with. This is the franchise dealing with this.

how do they navigate this as a franchise? You know, Logan, the way you handle it, first and foremost, with Zion is to do whatever you need to do, you know, to protect him and have him healed, right? You don't want to rush that. And that's, you know, it's going to suck because, you know, he obviously represents more opportunities to win games for you. And it's going to be enticing, you know, to some degree for the David Griffin's of the world and the people who are on the clock. I don't think Willie Green's on the clock there. It's his first year.

But there are people there who are on the clock, you know, for one reason or another, mainly because they haven't produced. But you have to protect Zion, right? Like, I can have my opinion on Zion as a player, and we can get into that. We've talked about it before. But the bottom line is you've got to protect that. So that's where that starts. Once we've made that decision, you know, it becomes about evaluating what on this roster

is capable of winning games around Zion. What pieces can we live without and what pieces have to be here? And that evaluation process starts, right? Like, we have to really flesh out like how much of this is, to your point, overbloded in terms of, you know, pay scale. And are they productive enough to warrant what they're getting? Can we trim the fat? Are they pieces that we identify as being winning pieces on winning teams?

then we're, as this is, this is from an administrative office, not from a coaching perspective, right? So now we're trying to, now we're trying to watch Willie and see if Willie is the guy we thought he was, right? Does he keep the locker room? You know, are these guys, I tell the story a bunch about when I went to Cleveland initially, I was kind of doing some, you know, consulting. And I was only there really to see if the team had checked out on Mike Brown. And, you know, Mike's a great coach. but at the time, you know, you had some really interesting pieces up there in terms of, you know,

personalities and they hadn't won in a while. Things were funky, you know, after LeBron left. And the answer to the question at the time was, yes, they have quayed on Mike Brown. It took 15 minutes to see that, right? So that's what we're looking at with Willie now. We're going to lose a lot of games. But does it look like this team is playing hard every night? Does it look like he's got, you know, their commitment is the effort there?

You know, we'll dive into his exes and O's a little bit. Like, are we seeing the in-game adjustments that we'd like to see? Are the game playing sound? You know, there's a difference between, you know, losing because you're just outmanned and losing because you're getting worked over on the whiteboard, you know? And so we're trying to see those type of things because that's all we can really do in Zion's absence. You're essentially punting on the season. They're eight in something right.

You're not winning any games right now. It's funny. I haven't, you know, I haven't watched too many Pelicans game for the simple fact that Zion is there. But I do know Willie Green, right? He's been through a great pedigree. He was on the Warrior staff. Sure. Took some time.

And on the Phoenix staff, Monty Williams is a really good coach, has a really good organizational system there. I think the biggest barometer is, especially in this situation, if the team plays hard. The team plays hard, and there's guys, maybe like some minimum guys that are overachieving, doing stuff. They're just, you know, who is, you got a lot of who is that guys or who is that?

Then I think you have a successful season. The problem that lies within that is you have Brandon Ingram that just got paid, right? He's a dude now. He's the guy that is doing all these things. As he matures into a dude, how do you weigh that when Zion is clearly the franchise? That's the guy with the highest ceiling on paper right now. We haven't seen much. I think he officially has gained.

I think I saw Andrew Lopez, ESPN wrote that Zion has officially played, been injured in more games that he's played in. Right. So he ever does get injured. Do you have a situation where you're good, Ron? Do you have a situation where, like, I'd say like, remember Kyrie in Boston where he gets injured for a long time and you see guys say, oh, I'm Jason Tatum. I'm Jalen Brown. I'm dope. I'm really good. And you haven't played well yet. So you can't just come up in here and just, you know, mess up the flow of things. And I'm not going to say that there's going to happen. But there is that confliction when you have a guy that's really good. And, and, um, and Brandon Ingram. So how do you, from a front office standpoint, from a player standpoint, make sure that those two guys are happy? Because at the end of the day, at least at the present moment, those are the two guys that you need to make happy because they're the two best players on the team. What do you do with that? What do you do with that? I mean, do you trade Brandon Ingram?

Do you just tell him to be patient while you're losing? You don't trade Brandon Ingram. Right now is the only thing on your roster that it can go. go get it the way you would need someone to go get it to win games. I personally think Brandon Ingram, and this is going to sound crazy, he's super talented. I see him as like a, I see him as like a Genobley or a Lou Williams or a Jamal Crawford. Like I see him as a dude that you bring in because he's so isocentric, but he's so good at scoring the ball that I see him like on a a championship level team.

Understand what I'm saying. There are only a couple of those, so I don't mean any disrespect, right? Like, on a championship level team, you bring him in and let him rock in an ISO capacity for 18 to 20 a game, and that's, that's what it is. But no, I don't think you have to trade in

because, I mean, what are we doing? We don't even, I don't even believe that Zion's skill set is one that you build around. That was my next question. Do you think that? And also, I want to, like, keep your mind on Brandon Ingram for a second. I'm going to ask you about Zion,

but that you brought up a great point about Zion, where is, is he somebody you build around? I don't know because when you, the reason why I say I don't know because you never know, like you're so young, you don't know. But it's really hard to build around a guy that is super ultra-athletic with that body type, man. Like, Shaq is the best case scenario,

but the fact that you played around Shaq, the fact that Shaq was able to stay as healthy as he was for as long as he was and play as best as great as he was, was, that's a testament to just how great shack was. But when you see, you could see the other side of that was Zion Williamson, right, where you have all these injuries, you have this body type where, you know, you can put on weight really fast, right?

Or it's hard to keep that weight down. And also, you're one of the most athletic specimens the game has ever seen, right, to where you just put a lot of stress on your joints, just being able to play. We saw that, not even with a guy of Zion's stature, but also. of Derek Rose, who, by all accounts, looks like a regular human being, right? He looks like, he's like 6, 3, 6, 4, but he's just super athletic, and that has been the downfall of, you know, his playing career. And so when you look at Zion, how do you manage that?

Because you have a supremely talented, supremely gifted, supremely gifted person that has tantalized it enough to be a number one. He's like the Bo Jackson and NBA. What do you do when you see that talent and how do you build a person? around it or actually make that a supporting piece. Well, you do, you do, in fairness to D. Rose, he's still a really good player, but he's just not athletically the D. Rose that was, you know, MVP of the league, right? Like, once that athleticism, you know, gets, gets, gets, gets, takes a couple hits.

I mean, you become a different player. You could still be really good, but you're just, you're not that MVP guy. I, I, when, when the Pelicans got the first pick in that draft, you know, I said the people around me, I was like, man, I would hate to have that fucking pig. I would hate to have it. I don't want that pig because you have to do exactly what they did. You have to take Zion, right? You weren't going to be able to, you know, withstand the backlash for not taking him. When he comes out and he looks the way he's looked in spurts, you weren't going to be able to survive that because it's like, holy shit, look what he's doing. But first of all, I can't, health is a thing. They're not a ton of of great stories in the NBA about guys coming in

being injured a lot early, you know, and then avoiding the injury bug for the rest of their career. You know, there have been guys who've come in, had good runs, then got injured, then be rehabbed, and then, you know, wound up playing well. But, like, typically guys come in and with feet and stuff like that when they're injured a lot, especially at the size. Like, Blake Griffin is an example of that. They tend to be injured. It's just what it is.

So for that being first and foremost, I don't know that I can build around that. I don't know that I can trust, you know, you being available enough of a percentage of the time for me to for me to build around that. Secondly, I've said this before. I don't skill set wise. I know it's super tantalizing and and it's must see box office highlight type of stuff. I don't know that it's conducive to winning if you're just putting the ball in his hands and asking him to be your guy. I don't believe it is. I could be wrong. Maybe one day we'll sit here and I'll be, you know, have the worst take of all time. I'll roll a dice on that. But I don't see it like that. I see it as this this really specific and really unique set of talents in this really unique

size, speed, you know, power combination. And you'd have to be, no one's ever built around something like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So you'd have to, you'd have to be a pioneer in terms of understanding what pieces go around it, how it all works, and get that recipe correct. And, you know, I don't know that there is one. I have a question for you.

what happens if he isn't that guy, right? And he has to be relegated to a role, right? Just because of injuries and things like that. Say if Zion, and this is, I think Zion will be. Can I, can I, let me do, let me do it. And I want you to keep your train of thought. Because I think what I have to do is just clarify a little bit more in terms of, like, when you're talking about a skill set, there are a lot of dudes that you can give a ball to

and they can get busy and they can rock. They can get you points. They can do this. They can do that. There are a lot of guys who check that box in the NBA more than the casual NBA fan would even realize, right? Or if you just gave them the ball and said, hey, man, get me buckets. They can do it. That doesn't make you a number one on a championship level team.

That's part of it. The other part of it is your mentality. Yeah. The way you conduct yourself. Do people follow you? Are you a leader? Are you a man amongst men's? Is there an alpha in the room with you?

It doesn't have to be an alpha where you're barking and yelling at people all the time, but do people look at you and say, hey, I'll follow that. And not everyone is built like that. And that's not a knock. But it does, in a lot of cases, exempt you from being able to lead a team to the promised land. Because to do that, people have to trust and follow. And you have to be one of those dudes that can handle your business. You've got to be a man.

You're in a locker room full of men with kids and mortgages and fucking, you know, families that you're taking care of. Real shit. You can't be no little boy in there. I'm not calling anyone a little boy, but you got to be able to handle yours for people to follow you. Now, I have, there's the other side of this. And you, I'm glad you said what you said, because how do, because what if Zion's just not the generational star

that we, that we, that we bestowed onto him, right? What if that's the case that he is like, you know, he ends up being Blake Griffin six years too early, right? Where he's just like, he's so much talent, but injuries have just gotten away with him so he bounces around on teams. This is a scenario that I'm asking. He's so famous, right,

to where, like, he's gone, went to Duke. He got this, wanted to be the face of a brand, trying to be the biggest thing since LeBron. I think that there might be, what you want to, you know, fight against is the Tim Tebow effect, right?

Where he comes to your team and he's immediately a distraction because he's, his talent is so tantalizing and he's so marketable and he's all these things. I haven't seen Zion play this season, but you know what I have seen? A Mountain Dew commercial with

Zion Williamson. A Jordan spread with Zion Williamson. You know what I'm saying? You would think as the casual fan would think, oh, this guy's a star, which he is. To marketers, he's definitely a star. He's bankable. But that has nothing to do

with what you're saying, Roger, which is is he going to be able to be in a locker room. And this has nothing to do with Zion the person because I'm sure Zion everything I've heard he's a really good kid

like really dope. But when you're around guys with this is their livelihood and you're not playing but you have all the stuff and all the distractions and all these things coming towards your team

and towards this locker room and you're not being able to be on the court and produce. Now that might be unfair but that's just the job that you took. That's why it goes back to you know

when we talk about younger dudes and younger players getting all this stuff early and we're already talking about a Zion max extension. It's like, dude, we ain't even seen you play yet. We haven't even seen you lead a team anywhere yet. And my question is, is this another example just right now, December 13, 2021, is this been an example if we just gave what will we hear of people saying, oh, we give these kids something too early? Now, I don't necessarily believe that all the time,

but is that, can you make the argument here as something that a kid got something too early and he wasn't able to, as of right now, he hasn't been able to live up just because of injuries? Is that fair, unfair to put the label of like, oh, the kid got it too early? He hasn't even been able to prove it on the back head yet. Unfair. I agree, but I think it's a question more fast. I have no problem with the question. It's a good question, but I would say unfair because he did what he was supposed to do at Duke.

He did what he was supposed to do in high school basketball. All signs pointed to, and that's why I said, And when he's a minute, NBA is done what he's supposed to do. He made an All-Star game. Yeah, I didn't get there yet. But like what I was going to say was like, all, that's why I said I wouldn't want that pick because you could not pass up on it. He had earned the right and he deserved that.

And when he's played, it's been productive enough and exciting enough. and box office enough to warrant the commercials and the marketability and all of that. He can't help that. That's not his fault. He's been able to produce to that level. Now, I can still feel like that production wouldn't take you to a championship necessarily,

but that doesn't minimize that he's done it. You know what I mean? So, like, I don't think he was given anything too early. It's just unfortunate for him, and it puts the Pelicans in a really unfortunate spot that he hasn't been able to be on the, court. You haven't been able to see him continue to grow and develop on the court and off the court. And so you're going to be in a position in the next couple years where you've got to figure out what

you're going to do, you know, and how this piece now fits. Is it the piece that you thought it was? Like, is it a smaller piece than you thought it was? And now we've got to, you know, we got to go out and find another big piece. Like that's, none of that is his fault. And I don't think he got it too soon. It's just, it happens every now and again, man, where someone, comes in and you think, you know, you think and there's genuine ability and it just, you know, you're injured so much. Now, I hope, I hope I'm wrong. I think he's, you know, from all accounts, you just, I don't know him. I think he looks like a really good dude. Like, I hope he gets these injuries under control. He gets that weight thing figured out because that's a big deal. You got

get that weight figured out, man, you're a pro. Like, and anybody's saying otherwise, like, oh, man, let him live and all that body shame. Ain't nobody body body shame and nobody. That ain't about that shit. But like there's, you can only carry so much weight on a frame for this. that much physical, you know, output. I do have a question for you, because I don't know this. I don't, like, again, I don't know. I've never been an NBA player. So I want to ask you about the weight stuff,

because that's a very important thing to distinguish. I think we should tackle that. He's too big. But what I'm asked, my question is asking you is how, what I'm asking you with that body type and you have a foot injury, how do you rehab that? What do you do? How do you stay in shape is what I'm,

I'm genuinely asking you because, I don't know. There's not a ton you can do, Logan. Like you can, you can, they, they have, you know, anti-gravity treadmills now where you'll get in, they'll, you'll sit in, like, they basically put like wetsuit pants on you with a zipper around them. And then they zip you into this anti-gravity type of thing that supports all your weight and you can still use the treadmill, but you're only really supporting 25, 35, 35, 45, whatever percent of your body weight. Like, you could do that. They're underwater treads that you can use. where the buoyancy of the water, like, you know,

or the water kind of helps, you know, minimize how much pounding you're putting on your feet. But when you're that size and that foot is sore enough to shut you down, I don't imagine they're letting them do any of that. But also there's diet, too, right? There's diet that can, that you can get your stuff while being on, getting nutrition, that's the whole thing. This is just in terms of the rehab for it, right?

Like, I don't know what you, what you would be able to do because, Anything that any type of pressure that you put on that is going to promote the soreness in the in the in the in the metatarsal right so now you're talking about upper body you know aerobic activity like a hand cycle or one of those like climber machines where you're doing the top but none of that is really you know keeping you in basketball shape it's funny because um you know i at joe ellen b said this about about uh his return from COVID when he was talking about how he had to still get in shape again, right? And that's specifically for big men. This is a thing where you get one injury and it's compounded by the fact that you need to get back in real shape, right? I mean, obviously all NBA

players go through that, but specifically big men. And so, that's why I think it's hard to do this, but if you guys are out for a extent, if the pelicans suck and they're continuing to suck, just put them out for another season, right? Just to like,

I would just say that that's, If you guys are that cautious, put him out for the rest of the season. Because you're not helping your franchise. You're not helping Zion to keep bringing him back and he's out of shape and he's not any, and we keep like no one wins and all this. Also, I want Zion in the league because if Zion pops, it'll be amazing for the league. It would be great for the league, especially for him and everything. If this works out well, I want this to happen.

But I think the best course of action, is that, are you with me on that? because I just feel like he should just, based on what I keep hearing, you're delaying the inevitable, which is he's going to be out for the season. Yeah, I, not knowing the diagnosis or seeing the bone scans, it would be hard for me to say. I would say this, you need to shut him down for a couple months. Like, right now, you need to make the call that this isn't a week-to-week. We're going two months out and we'll reevaluate.

And at that time, if they're still not significant healing and you're still saying, you haven't seen what you need to see, then we're talking about what you're talking about. Hey, we're just going to kick this until next year and, you know, give him the time he needs. But I think right now you probably back it up, like, give him a month and a half, two months, no pressure. Let's just let it rest and see what's going on. I want to go back to your point about diet and everything. I don't know what his diet is, right? Because I've never met him again. I'm not around him. I don't ask Griffith's questions. But there seems to be an issue with his frame. Like, people are built different. Anyone else that's a kick in science to anybody here, man. I'm 45 years old. Like, I'm

not in shape. I'm skinny. It's my body type. You know what I mean? Like I fight to put muscle on. Like when I got to go in a gym to build a little bit of chest because I can't fill out my t-shirts. I'm skinny. You know what I mean? Like I don't have a problem holding weight. Some people do have a problem with weight in the opposite direction. And so when your, when your body is, is, you know, your moneymaker. And that's his money maker right now. You have to figure out a way to keep that in check and to make sure that it's running at its optimum. And if that requires you changing diet, changing habits, or what have you, that's what it is. Like, you have to make sure, you've heard the stories of Dennis Robman being on treadmills after games running. No. No, Dennis Rodman, I mean,

he's, I don't know, he didn't seem to have a weight problem, but he understood he had to be in his, in. Everybody that I've heard talk about Dennis Robin, like, when it comes down to it, we can talk about the party and all that other shit. But every person I've seen, watched Dennis Robin Live said he was the most in-shape athlete they've ever seen, like the most Lemberg, this ridiculous, ridiculously in shape. Maybe you're not that, but you have to figure out how to get yourself in your peak shape so that you can have your optimum level of output. And that's just what it is.

So if what you're explaining to me is like his future with all of the commercials and taking the league by storm and doing all these cool things and I'd be happy as hell for you. What also comes with that is the commitment to making sure you're in your best possible shape and you're available to your team. 100%. Let's take a quick break. Roger was getting on my head pre-pod.

We're going to talk about why when we get back. All right. So we were talking me, you, Rha, Sasha Mac. We were talking about prepod about Kevin Durant. It was like, it was a brief

thing. and we brought up Simmons last week. Simmons's conversation and me and Simmons when we talked and it was about how Janice and Kevin Durant versus for the best player in the league. Now I said if you go back last week, I said that Kevin Durant, I would say unequivocally,

but it's definitely the best player in the league. I don't see. How's that not unequivocally? You just, are they, are those not synonymous? You know why? You know why? You know why?

You know why? because Janice is that good, right? It's like, eh. But because you, I said Kevin Durant is the best player in the league pre, pre-show, pre-pod, and you were like, hold on now. This is a conversation. It's a conversation between him and Janus. And I really, I think that it's just Kevin. It's one and two. It's not one A and one B. It's one and two right now.

It's fine. Why? Because of what Kevin did last year in the postseason. Lost, against Janus? No, man, it wasn't that, bro. He dragged that team. Wait, he didn't lose the honest? I'm sorry, go ahead, I'm sorry, I shouldn't interrupt. I shouldn't interrupt.

I'm sorry, go. My bad. What he did it. What he did in the postseason with a skeleton roster with nobody, Brooklyn should have won that series. And I'm standing on that. And I believe with even one other person on the roster, I know that it's James Harden.

I think that Kevin is, pulling this roster. And he's done it before. He's done it in Oklahoma City. He's done it with this Brooklyn roster. That he is pulling them from the not duljums of the league because they do have James Hardin on the team. But considering what's going on right now, for them to be a top tier team based on what we've all talked about, for them to be in treading water the way they do with the

roster that we both see is like, eh, I think it's the best player in the league, but what he's doing? The fact that they're a top five team or a top three team in the Eastern Conference right now. I think that's a testament to Kevin. I think that's a testament to him being the best player in the league. I think all that's fair. I do. comma,

however. No, I meant I'm there will be, yeah, a however coming. But I do want to give Kevin flowers because I do believe he could be the best player in the league. I don't see it as a clear one and two.

I see it as like a 1A and a 1B and you pick, you pick your poison type of deal. I don't, but I can't say that he is unequivocally the best player in the league. I think he's one of the top two players. in the league. And I think, and then it comes down to, you know, situationally on what team you're on. And everything you said is true. Like, he did drag that team to, to possibly win in that series as much as I joked about, you know, Janus and company beating him. But he did. And he's,

and he's pulling him right now. He's MVP favorite. Like, he's doing what he's supposed to do. I can't argue with that. And I've said, he's a bucket. You know, any way you wanted, he's a bucket. Like, he's just going, he's going to give you a bucket. Sorry, you have 51 the other night. I would never throw shade a KD. Not, not even a question. But you can't just say that and dismiss Janus. You can't do that. But yes, to some degree you are. Yes, you are.

Because Janice beat KD&M last year. Now, he had more help, but that ain't his fault. And Janus has been doing this now. He's the two-time league MVP. Was it back-to-back? His back-to-back MVP's. That's not by, like, that's not a happenstance. That's not by chance.

Like, this man is dominating. Yonnas is a G. And so let me just make the argument. While Kevin Durant is maybe the most gifted offensive player and bucket right now. Janice, it doesn't look the same, but he's equally unstoppable. Janice, I believe,

Kevin Durin is a phenomenal defender when he wants to lock in and do that. Janice is that all the time. It's just what he is. He's all the time defensive, like, whatever. And Janice is more of a force on the glass, you know, and all of that stuff. And I would also say, like,

I heard somebody, was it Chris Broussard the other day, maybe said that if you put KD on, on the bucks. I don't know that I agree with all of that. I don't know. I'm not going to, no, no, I'm saying. I don't know that I agree with that.

I'm with you. We're on the same page. All I'm saying is he puts a different kind of force and pressure on defenses because of the style he plays. And so it's really hard to say who's better. I just think Yonis checks more to boxes right now than KD. And I think that's a fair thing to say. But I'm still not ready to say Janus one KD two.

I think they're one A and one B, man. They're just, they're different. Huh. Raw. I think what it is, a sucker for offense. I'm over here acting like I was not in the building for the block. I was in the building for the block in Milwaukee last year. It might have been the, it was the best.

It was one of the, I want to be, because I'm trying to draw on my mental, like, I can't do that. There's LeBron. There's LeBron there. That was not even, no, that was not even. No, that was not even. LeBron's block had nothing on what Janus did last year. That chased down block of Andre Agua Dala had absolutely nothing. Hear me now. nothing on that play that Janice made.

Now, it was equally as impactful, the timing, you know, the stage, all of that. But in terms of sheer, you know, like, I got to, like, athleticism and all of that. Come on, dog. I'm going to be real with you, dog. Like, I'm talking about in terms of stakes, I'm still, I can't, in terms of stakes, I can't take it away from LeBron, right? But in terms of what I saw real time, what Janus did, it was an honor to watch that. I'll be real.

It was just an honor to be able to be in the building to see because bro, he came from the other. I was, I forgot who I was sitting next to. I think probably Vinny Goodwill or Sean Powell. And it was one of those things where like, you ever just been somewhere and had like an outer body experience? I think I grabbed one of them like, oh, like one of those things where you can't control your,

you can't control your emotions because you saw something happen in the moment. Right. Just something that spontaneous is that, that's what that play was. And I think that when I talk about Kevin, I'm definitely talking about the office and his ability to carry. And I think that we're having the same conversation here.

And maybe I'm in prisoner of the moment. And I will say that, right? I'm not going to run away from that. But when you see Janus do just sheer raw athleticism and really not playing by any set of rules or not even, it is one A one B. It's really who you wake up in the morning. I didn't want to go watch.

It was funny because I was, ever since you said that, you know, I told about the story about how I watch highlights with music on them and which player elicits a certain type of vibe.

And you said that Janus elicits that MOP Annie Up vibe. So you know what I did a couple weeks ago? And I've been doing it periodically throughout the week. I've been doing that.

I've been watching Janus's 1920 MVP mix and I've been playing Annie up. Ra, I got to just make you a video, dog. It's different. It's different. It's just, it's right up in your back.

It's right up in your back. He's one of those dudes that I don't give a fuck. I don't care if you don't go out for this three. I don't care if you just pack the paint. I'm going to dunk on all six of y'all. Bring the coach out here. I'm going to dunk on him too. Right?

Yes. Yonis is one of those dudes. But that play doesn't get necessarily the respect of a Kevin, who's more of like the Marvin Gay type, who was literally structurally the best. offensive player I think we've ever seen, right? Sure. I look.

But it's hard, right? It's just hard to why it's just hard to it's, it's two different players and it's really just a matter of preference between the two. Well, I can't separate. Look, what I can't, what I can't do is quantify because I believe Katie to be the better offensive player, right? And so that would give him a percentage edge over Janus. But when I factor in the defense and the rebounding and all of that, like I, it's hard

for me to quantify whether that puts Yonels. honest fractionally over KD if it evens them out or whatever because you can't have you can't call someone the best player in the game unless unless you're factoring it all in can you dig what I'm saying and that's where I'm at and I just want to talk about that play because I was talking about it at lunch the other day with someone with someone who I talk basketball with all the time yeah it was obnoxious do you understand do you understand what kind of dog you have to be to even think that you can make that play not execute it not executed Logan I'm talking about the best players on the planet, some of them that I've played with, wouldn't even

attempt making that. They don't have it in their heart to think that they could get in that play. All right, you're talking about a D.HO from D'Andre Aiton to Dibook. At the top of the key, three point line, NBA three point line is where Dibook catches it, right? D.HL. Yonis holds, covers the turn, which means he kind of sits there to protect as D. How far is he up on Dibook? Currently, he is at the top of the key and slightly back.

peddling, but you can't back all the way up because Devin Booker will just push it right down your throat. So you got to kind of hold the line until I think it's Chris Middleton gets him back under control. So now, boom, at about the elbow, right side of the floor, DeBook picks the ball up and looks like he's going to hit Aiton, no backside or weak side support. At which point, Janus is on a baby contest and is like, oh shit, everyone quits on that play. You're done. You're cooked. You're cooked. There's no weak side help. I know it. Guard did a good job. Let me, let me just get this ball out the net. This man turns in the air, looks at it for a second. Yes. And then leaps from outside the restricted area off of one foot,

catches a two-hand dunk attempt with one hand and get that shit out of here. Bro, come on, man. Stop playing with me. Stop playing with me, dog. Ra, rah, raw. I'm not, I just, I'm going to build on that point because what you just explained, because you're watching, the replay, right? Yes. What you literally explained was literally two seconds, him doing all of that in two seconds, all of that. All of that.

I was talking to, I was talking to a scout about a week and a half ago. And it was, we were talking about playoff basketball versus finals basketball versus regular season basketball. And he was telling me, because I'm really curious about this. This is why I really asked you these questions. I'm really curious. I'll never be an NBA player. So I really would like to know these points.

How hard is it to play defense in the NBA? And he's like, bro, not only do you have to be supremely talented. You have to know 17 different things at once. Oh, yeah. And it's faster in the playoffs. Oh, yeah. It's you got to wait for the guy going up the middle, bump him. Wait for a guy that's, especially if you're a big man, wait for a little guy trying to

screen you and take your legs out and shit like that, right? And then also close out to a three-point shooter. you got to be in a different bag to be an all-world defender. Now, I say a lot to say, which you sold me, it sounds like 30 seconds of effort in figuring stuff out. No, I was during that play, I was in the building, I was, I can't, I don't, I've only been in the arena once or twice, but I was diagonal from where Janus was going.

From where Janus was going to block, I was up and diagonal from that. So, what you're, I'm telling the viewers, which you, or the listeners, which you just explained happened in two seconds. What I mean by that, that shit happened so fast that I had to watch three or four replays to even figure out. I just saw a blur

of getting that shit out of here. And you know this. When you watch a game, dude, shit happened so fast. That's an Aiden dunk 11 times out of 10. That's an eight in Alleyoop. He's dunking that shit. All bigs quit on that play. When they see

the lob going over their head, They turn and watch the dunk go in and they get it out of the net. That's what they all do. And then some of them complain that somebody else should have helped them out, right? Right? If there was a weak side. But in this case, there's no weak side. So DeBook just made a hell of a play.

We got to give it up. He takes it out of the net. Listen, for Yonis to do that was incredible. Ra, I wish you would have seen that in person, bro. Like, I know you don't go to basketball games. I wish you would have seen that shit because it was a once, it was like a shooting star. Like, that's not going to happen again.

That's never going to happen again. And for him to do it on the biggest stage is great. One of the single best defensive plays I've ever seen. I think we'll go down. Like, I don't think I'm being hyperbolic with that. I don't know how many are in its category, real talk. You know what? Fuck rankings.

Because that was a special play. Kevin's a special player. I love them both. I love watching them both. You know, I do want to say something, though, because you brought up, you know, who you were talking to about defending and stuff like that because there was another really impressive, you know,

defensive performance this week. You know, and Bill actually has been on this for a long time. I was on Bill's pod. The first time I was on Bill's pod, he was bringing this name up to me about really feeling like Matias Taible. Is that his name? Matisse Taible. Matisse Taible.

And a lot was made about the performance that he had on Steph. And so I started digging into him a little bit, right? I watched the game again. I thought you had a very good point. This isn't to marginalize what he did because I do believe him to be a fantastic defender. We could get into why he's a, fantastic defender. But as a defender, and I understand all these things going on, I think it's

an interesting point, right? I understand all this stuff and I'm processing it as it's happening. If I know that there's a record on the line and you want this three more than you want that too, it gives me a lot more freedom and takes away any threat or not any threat, but the majority of the threat that you'll go by me. So I can sit on that a lot more than I ordinarily. But I do want to give him credit. He's a phenomenal defender. We had a conversation about this pre-pod, and I'm glad we're talking about it this time, because I said, and I disrespected Raja, like, kind of because of just what I said. I, like, just, your guys are going to understand.

Like, Raja understands what I'm saying. You guys are going to understand. I said, oh, Steph just had an off night, and Raja fucking got, he, you know, you know, the defender in Raja was like, you got Métis fucked up. It's factually incorrect, though. It's incorrect. Right. Listen, let me just get,

because this is why we're having the conversation now because I want to talk this through. Patis Stuybal is a phenomenal defender. And I think that what we have here, and I think we're having a lot more, what I do like about the game now is we're having a lot more respect towards, I don't even want to call it specialty guys,

but guys that do something way better than a lot of people. And we're giving them a lot more respect. We call them 3&D guys. I think that's marginalizing a lot of things, but guys that can do these things, these guys are getting paid for their specialties. Because remember back in the day, you just say, oh, he's a good defender. That's all he is.

That's all that they do. Now, Matisse's going to make a lot of money because he can do that. You know, I don't know if it's the Kauai effect, but guys that are really good defenders and that are really good at what they do, and he can shoot the three. He has a game. I don't know if he wants to marginalize him to say he's just a defender because Batiste is that dude.

He's really good. What I was saying was that I was at the game against the Blazers. watch a Steph play. And I've seen Steph play for a long time. He was sacrificing his game and the rest of the team's game. And this is what happens. There's no shade to anybody. This is what happens when, especially during the Warriors era,

where they want somebody to get a record. Like they did that with, um, they did that with Clay Thompson. They did that they'll just pass in the ball and feed him. It's no harm, no foul. But I knew that step really wanted that Ray Allen record. And he was just chucking bullshit up. He was just

chucking shit up. I remember I left at like around third quarter mark. I'm like, he's not getting the record. He doesn't even care. And not to say that Steph was cheating in a game by any means, but like, oh, so he was just Chuck, he, I think, I don't know the, I don't know the final box or the final shooting percentage, but I think he, like, only took one shot that was a two-pointer the whole night. I was just like, okay, and I watched a little bit of the Sixers game, and I saw that same thing. He wasn't trying to, he was trying to get the record.

I think he's been honest with that, and everybody in the Warriors organization has been honest with that. But I think it was a symptom of that more than him completely getting shut down. Because I've seen him play against like Kauai and a lot of these other old world defenders at higher stakes than a December regular season game and him just cooking them, right? Well, just because he cooked somebody on a bigger stage doesn't mean he can't get shut down on a lesser stage. That's fair. But what you just said, right? What you just said is that when he is just chucking and not getting other people involved and not it is literally just chucking and shooting his shot that gives the defender a lot easier way to just like oh i'm just going to sit

on this fucking i'm just going to sit on it i was going to do is try to shoot threes anyway i'm not taking anything from batis i'm not taking it you're looking at me but you are you are you are saying i'm not i'm not what i'm saying is he was chucking all he was doing was chucking and he was getting it's easy you just said it right you just said it no i didn't no i didn't say it no place Put me my place. I don't feel like it's not going to be putting in your place, but what you're saying, I can agree that he's shooting more threes than he ordinarily would

because he's chasing a record, which is funny to me because records are so weird. You start pressing, it makes you less likely to get the damn record. If you had just continued playing the way you normally played, you would have had the record already, which it's hard. It's boring to watch right now because it's like,

you know, like they're, I don't know if you have much you seen the Warriors during this stretch, but bro, they're not fucking playing. They're not getting shots in rhythm. I don't like watching them. I would also. caution the Warriors about chasing it and losing your rhythm

because they're a rhythm team. You know, you ain't an overpowering talent team right now without Clay. So you're a rhythm team. So I would caution them on that, but who am I? I agree. I mean, I, but what you're saying is that because Steph was shooting more threes that Matisse didn't

lock him down. That's not, that's not true. Like I think because he was settling, settling, settling, not shooting more threes. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what Steph did. If my, if my performance, if I blocked multiple of those shots, if I ran him off of a bunch of others, if I wasn't allowing him to do what he did and his

performance was poor, I still, that was me. Now, I don't control what Steph came out here and decided he was going to shoot tonight or not shoot. Like, that's not my business. My business is to go out with the knowledge that I have, the game plan that I understand and execute the shit out of it. And that cat

did it. I have a question for you. And like, because like, I don't want to, I don't want to disrespect Pat He's Thaisal, bro. He's a grown-ass man. He's literally worked his ass off to get here, right? Sure. He's one of the best defenders in the league, if not the best, right? Six-five, six-eleven, wing span, like smart as hell.

Yeah, tough. He's been so good, especially since Washington. He was slept on in Washington. I remember watching it. My question is, can both be true, though, right? Can Matisse Stuyve will be great? Because he's seen that do the scouting report and just sit on Steph right now. Could it be possible that Steph is pressing and then that Matisse had a great fucking?

performance and good stuff. Could both be true? Yeah, they can be true, but like ultimately, one has to hold more weight than the other. Okay, so what one out in your mind on Saturday? Like, right? Like what? The job that Matisse Taible did with the information he had, which was that he's going to come out and try to break this record and you can get up and challenge all of those shots, the threat of him going by you is a lot less than it ordinarily would be because he wants the record. I take that information. I formulate my game plan. I go out there. I execute it. I execute if I've blocked multiple shots and run him off of these opportunities and he doesn't score, that's the job I did.

Like, it wasn't like, if Steph was shooting wide open threes and he was like, oh for eight on wide open threes, then yes, he's off. Like he just didn't play well. But those were all contests, like those, he had someone breathing down his neck on every shot. That's a defensive job. Yeah. No, I agree with you. You know, I think that puts the argument of why we always say a seven game series.

and I'm not saying it of anything. I think I love the fact of gamesmanship within games. Like, I would love to see Matisse Stivell versus Steph for seven games, right? Like, just to see how they both kind of, you know, see what wins out out of that, right? Steph wins out in that. I know, Raja, I'm trying to. I'm just saying, I want to protect myself. I know where you stand, Logan.

I'm just saying. I'm under no disillusioned that, like, Steph would win out. I'm not, but I, but I, no, but what my argument is, like, I don't think people see that, right? they don't see like the talent in the NBA and all the professional sports are so good. It's a testament to how good Matisse Stuybal is and also how good Steph is, right, to where he elicits that attention from arguably the best defender in the league. I'm not going to, I'm not going to, there's no bones about that. Matisse is dope. He's been dope.

Just he's, he's, you know, developing the three-point shot. Now he's a really good basketball player. But I think when we get lost in, it's just like, when somebody says, oh, such and such got shut down in game one, because such has played a great defense on them. And then they go down two games later or two days later for game two, and the offensive player just gets the upper hand. It just kicks his ass or, you know, kicks their ass.

I love that back and forth. Like, I do wish there's a world where I do wish there was seven games of Batiste Stuyval versus Steph because we could actually see that manifestation happen. That would be dope. It would be dope. I mean, it's always great to see. the best players on the planet at what they do. Lock horns. It's, it's, it's always, it's always

fun to watch that. I would, I want to say this about Matisse Thibel, because I, as I looked them up a little bit more, um, yeah, start shooting the ball, bro. Yeah. You got to start shooting the ball. From experience, Matisse, I, you probably don't listen. Start shooting the ball, man, because like teams will celebrate the hell out of you defensively. Mm-hmm. And tell you, they're like, oh, man, we can't win without

that. And if you're not checking, Like, if you're not meeting a certain criteria for points scored or three point shots made or whatever, they're not paying you. They could tell all that shit they want. Yep. So I learned that the hard way, though. Don't let nobody sell you on just running around out there and defending. Fuck that. You got to put up a certain amount of points.

Like, just be solid offensively. You do not. Trust me. It's not like, hey, man, you got to average 17 a game. It ain't that. But you got to be serviceable offensively. They got to know you can make a couple shots. What's the averaging right now?

Like, because I feel what you saying. What's his average is points per game? Because defense isn't sexy, bro. As much as we romanticize it on this pod right now, it's not like in terms of- It don't get you paid. Not like that. He's averaging five point seven points a game.

Got to get that to 12 or something, right? What do you get that? You get that up to, yeah, you get that up near 10, 11. Now, now there's real money on the table, you know what I mean? Like, but, you know, I remember being like in places like Philly and Dallas and, you know, good teams.

like real good teams, Western Conference Teams, Western Conference Championship type of teams where we played Dallas one year and obviously finals. And I probably wasn't ready to be an offensive player on those teams. But the conversation was, hey, just go out here and defend the shit out of it. It's going to give us. And I was like, yes, perfect. Let's do it. And I did it. And every year they were like, yeah, no, minimum. Yeah. You know? And it did. I agree.

It wasn't until I scored like 13 a game in Utah for two years where people were like, okay, we'll pay them more than a minimum. It's funny because it's like the streets know about defense. The streets always know about defense. But the mainstream don't get they'll give a fuck like the mainstream you know we're a hoop nerd so we're gonna be like yo you remember that December matchup when he's like when Matisse locked the fuck like stuff to fuck up put the clamps on stuff. When it comes to July like the mainstream like the everybody's gonna be like well you know like you average just five a game. Like do we really care about what he did we care what happens? What about yeah so I agree

with you on that. I also say like T's stop. did a great job. And it was a great game to watch. It was. It was. Yeah. Man. We did get to the shits today, man.

So shout out to us, man. I didn't. If y'all want to see in this pre-pod meeting, if y'all would have heard it, dog. Shout out to you. There were some real concerns about what was going to. There were some real concerns. Good job, Rob. Good job.

Good job. All right, man. That has been a Monday edition of Real One. Make sure you check us out every Mondays and Thursdays. We will give you guys a brief update of our holiday schedule. We'll do that next pod. This is going to be various. But that was our Monday edition.

In the meantime, make sure you check out, as we said at the top of the show. Waz have a show on Sundays, and we have a new Tuesday show on the Ringer NBA feed. Also, make sure you check out group chat. Make sure you check out mismatch. Make sure you check out the answer. Make sure you check out Black Girl's songbook with who, Roger Bell. legend, Danielle Smith. Let's keep the propaganda going.

Make sure you check out R2C2 with who. Roger Bell. Filoo legend, the crestside clown, C, C, Cethe. But he's time to shoot the damn ball, boy. Ah, we'll see you later. Holler.