The Ringer NBA Show - Where Do LeBron James, the Lakers, and the Celtics Go from Here? | The Answer

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

Seerat and Michael begin the podcast by sharing their reactions to the Nuggets' sweep of the Lakers, and giving big flowers to Nikola Jokic. Next, they take a look at L.A.’s future prospects, and ponder if Kyrie Irving could be donning the purple and gold next season (19:20). Finally, they shift their focus to the Eastern Conference finals and speculate on changes the Celtics will make to their roster and coaching staff if they end up losing the series as expected (44:29). Hosts: Seerat Sohi and Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's a new year and I have a new podcast here at the Ringer, Offguard, hosted by me and my guide Pasha Higigi. Austin and I go way back and talk so much hoop already that we figure those time to fire up the mics and let you in on all of these conversations. Every week, Pasha and I will hit on the biggest stories happening in the league. And get Austin's perspective of someone currently hooping in the NBA. Tap into Offguard every Friday on the Ringer NBA show feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to The Answer. Incredible game tonight. I'm Sirat Sohi. We have Michael Pina here, which is great because the Nuggets are going to their first NBA finals in franchise history. So who better to have than the one guy who, unlike me, has never bet against this team. These were kind of, this was your team. Incredible Yokish performance. Incredible third quarter to turn the game around. Just a dominant series by the Nuggets. Just no answers for the Lakers. Michael, what do you? Just jump in for me, man.

I want you to take the floor here. Have your moment. This basketball game was a lot of fun. We have a lot of time to talk about Nicola Yokic, Jamal Murray. Everything about their offense, it's so beautiful. Their defense came to play tonight in a lot of ways. But can we start just throwing all of the praise at LeBron James? His performance tonight, it was obviously in a losing effort, in a sweep.

Huge bummer. But I just had, I mean, it's like saying I have a lot of respect for LeBron James is a really unique and singular take. But 31 points and a half of basketball against the number one seed. He's 38 years old. He did absolutely everything. Ran out of steam in the second half a little bit. But down the stretch was like hounding Nicola Yokic. I think I haven't seen anyone also.

I watch a lot of Denver Nuggets basketball. I haven't seen any individual player guard Nicola Yokic better than LeBron James did in this series. He was phenomenal, so physical, got away with some veteran body blows that were probably fouls, but that's who he is, super smart player, very physical, super strong, super smart, denied a lot of stuff. And yeah, just props to LeBron James, who was. swept, wanted to do everything he possibly could to not get swept. And I think she'd be commended for, he didn't drag this Lakers team because there was a lot of, a lot of big plays and big knights from their role players. And Anthony Davis was probably their most important and

consistent force on the defensive end, which was their identity. But for LeBron to be in the conference finals this season, I think is just, I don't even know what words to put, like, with this roster, just monumental, honestly. He is amazing. So shout out to him. Yeah, tour de force, 40 points, the most anybody who scored at his age, 38 in the, in the postseason, one assist shy of a triple double, just an absolute tour to force. And to the point of the defense, man, like, there was one play late in the fourth quarter where

he just hounded Murray all the way across the court from one side to the other and then was just huffing and puffing, holding onto his knees and then comes down the other. Yeah. Gave it as all. Yeah. Everything he had, everything he had down the other end and lays it in. And he had, he drew that, the first charge he drew on Yokic wasn't a fan, wasn't a fan of that one at all. I don't think that he was, but that's what you get to do when you're LeBron. I think it's, it's really smart to put, to put him on Yokchch for.

for that reason too. And then the second one gives Yokic's fifth foul. And that was a big moment in the game. I think there were a lot of turning points in that fourth quarter where it looked like anybody could take it. And the nuggets just kind of, man, the nuggets, they just, they keep coming at you. And there is just, there's no answer for a team

that has so many different players who can just get off. You know, on a night like this where, like, first of all, let's just start with Yokic. just an incredible performance by him, 30 points, 13 assists, 14 rebounds. That third quarter, 13 points and 10 rebounds in a quarter, 36-16 quarter for the Nuggets, pretty much decided the game erased what was the best first half that the Lakers have played, which I want to talk about when we reflect on where the Lakers go from here. But he was just incredible.

He figured out Rui Hachamora. which he knew was going to happen at some point. This was the night. And I think in some ways, the Lakers, I mean, it didn't matter anyway. They were down 3-0, but they got a little unlucky in some ways in terms of this being the night that he did that. Just that incredible three-pointer turning around on Davis and then the other one with his foot on the line. Yeah, it was just, and then some really good shot making for Murray too, who was pretty much unstoppable from below the arc today. So yeah, just the way that these, those two complement each other, the way that what those two do compliment.

the other role players on the team. It's just, I don't know, I don't know what you do about it. This was a really, a really versatile Lakers defense, a really versatile Lakers offense, too, that, you know, should have hypothetically had a lot of different bodies and a lot of different options to throw at the nuggets. I don't think they used all of those options. They probably could have exhausted a few more,

although we did see some Tristan Thompson minutes, so I don't know. But, yeah, they just, you know, this series was over, I think, after game two. I don't think they had any answers. And, you know, two games later, I got to give credit to the Nuggets, too. Like, that's, that's another thing. Just incredibly professional performance. You know, I thought, I thought they had, they've had some moments where, you know, I think you could, they could have afforded to lose this game, obviously.

They didn't have a good first half. Then they just came out reignited on defense in, in the third quarter. And it just kind of, like, there were other kind of key moments in this series. I look back at game three and third quarter. Yokic, you know, in foul trouble, Jamal goes cold, they hold on. Just the kind of markers that you look for when you're talking about a team potentially winning a championship. Yokish was amazing.

His go-ahead basket, he has five fouls. They inbound with five on the shot clock. He just muscles baseline past Anthony Davis, goes through Dennis. Poor Dennis Ruder, rotated over, low man, puts his hands up, just gets bare. erled through and Yokch flips it up and in. They go up to and they never really look back. But he was dictating everything in this game. I complimented LeBron, of course, but like the Nuggets did a tremendous job of getting Yokch the matchup that he wanted. I think you nailed it right on the head when you talked about how Denver really solved the Rui Hachumura slash Tristan

Tosh, whoever you wanted to put on Yokic who was not Anthony. Davis and then have Anthony Davis roam off Aaron Gordon. They solve that in this game. A lot of 5-4 pick and roll with Yokic and Gordon got a lot of good looks out of that where you have to load up off the strong side or weak side corner and Yokic is just going to pick you apart there, hit some big three, has found KCP for a huge one, found Michael Porter Jr. for one early in the game. And, you know, when Yokich is in pick and roll with Tremal Murray and he gets the pocket pass, he gets that little four on three advantage. Aaron Gordon was just like brilliant in all.

I mean, he did this all season long. It's why he was nearly an all-star. Just cutting baseline. Yokic finds him every single time. And he finished or he drew a foul at the basket. A lot of slip screens through the paint late. They had the AN1 dunk. Aaron Gordon did.

I mean, this is Nicole. I mean, Nicole Yokic is amazing. Like, he, the way he dictates the pace. at the game. I thought that his defense at the rim and in the paint was really solid tonight. He wasn't the reason that the Lakers shot like 14 for 29 or something at the rim, which is, I mean, I kept refreshing cleaning the glass thinking there was a glitch

or something. That's like an absolutely astonishing statistic. But his effort and the way he just leverages his humongous girth in size down low is just there was really something to behold tonight. you know, whenever he's matched up one-on-one with Anthony Davis, this entire series, AD couldn't do anything with them, like, for real. Like, all 80s baskets when Yogic was defending him were on short rolls, the little push shot. Like, when it was one-on-one, when it was in the post, when it was ISOed on the wing,

like, Yokch stood him up repeatedly. I think AD finished, what, like, three for 10 or four-for-11 in the paint in this game? That's just, like, not going to get it done. So Yokch was amazing. he was the best player in the series by far, not even close. And I know we're not going to talk too much about the finals and we're going to transition to talk about the Lakers in their offseason now. But like I don't care if it's the Celtics.

I don't care if the Celtics like storm back and beat the heat by 40 in every game or Miami blow, which is not going to happen. I'm sorry to say to myself. Or like the heat blow them out in game four. The Denver Nuggets should be the heavy favorite. in the NBA finals because they will have by far the best player. They will have a team that is just like firing on all cylinders. Everybody knows their role.

The rotation is very tight. Michael Malone trusted seven guys in this game. And Christian Brown, poor Christian Brown, who made one mistake in game three, got pulled, screwed up a defensive coverage switching on to AD. And the Lakers scored, pulled out of the game immediately, has not seen the floor since. I'm so glad you mentioned that. It's going to be really interesting to see how that rotation opens up. I hope he gets another shot in the NBA finals.

He's good. But the Denver Nuggets are just a force, and they deserve everything. They deserve all the credit, all the attention. They're amazing. They will out-solve any defensive coverage in the half-court. They're amazing in transition. And, yeah, I think they should be the heavy favorites in the NBA finals. Yeah.

I I just love me some angry fired up Michael Malone I know that Lakers fans have not been a fan of his quotes about how everyone is acting like

the Nuggets are underdogs and like he definitely is trying to rile his team up a little bit he had that technical foul at the end of the first half which was like the first time this series that the Nuggets have looked even a little bit

discombobulated but I just I think one of the most productive tensions on this entire roster is the anxiety that Michael Malone has against the kind of laissez-faire approach of a very offensive-minded group of personnel that have, you know, come together through, you know, effort, scheme, and also just intelligence to find a way to build what has become a defense that is championship level that has held held itself together enough in some really key moments.

And that's just really impressive. But it's also just a testament to how well the pieces have come together for this team. And I know that, you know, I think that with this matchup coming and a week to analyze it, there will be a lot of sort of morality tales about continuity and all of that stuff. But at the same time, like there is a lot to it. think this team is just a perfect example of it. Because if you look at what they've done in the Tim Connolly era, in the Calvin Booth era, pretty much from the moment that it was clear that Nicola Yokic is going to

be a superstar in this team, you got Michael Malone and, and, and, Espos are like two of the longest running coaches in the NBA, too, where the nuggets have just found more and more detailed ways to build perfectly around Yokic. I think Aaron Gordon is a great example of that. They were kind of looking for that guy for a really long time. And it's not just that he's a great foreman. He can play defense, but he's also one of the most explosive cutters and the biggest targets in the game. Michael Porter Jr., another guy who's just an incredible target, right? Like, he's huge and he is a good cutter. He is, I think he doesn't get enough credit for how intelligent he is, like on the court. And he's a great shooter, too.

If you look at like this offseason, right, you get KCP and Bruce Brown. He get KCP is one of the best screen navigators in the NBA. So if you're going to have a guy like Yokic who's going to have to drop on the pick and roll, having a guy who can navigate those and just, you know, eat up airspace quickly is really good. And I think MPJ does that too. Jamal does that too. Brown, man, just one of my favorite signings. Like great cutter.

He plays point guard as well. Great playmaker. He can guard. Like he's so versatile on both ends of the floor. I just, I can't think of a more perfect pairing of role players alongside a superstar who is one of the most unselfish guys in the NBA. It's just, it's beautiful to watch. And it's just like, when you have that combination of, you know, great personnel and

chemistry, it's just, and by the way, I haven't even mentioned the Jamal, the Jamal Yokic connection, which, I mean, we've talked about it so much. You don't necessarily need to. But yeah, yeah, just, you know, kudos to the Nuggets front office to, you know, everybody in that coaching staff to the Nuggets in general. I mean, this has just been a really long time coming. And you love to see also just, you know, a team that has never made it before be in this spot.

And, you know, in a smaller market, too. It's a great story. Great story. Great team. First NBA finals appearance in franchise history. I don't think it will be the last so long as Nicole Yokich is on this team and in this franchise. And he's smack dab in the middle of his prime.

I'm still getting better every single year. And Jamal Murray is, I mean, what can you say about his stretch in the middle of this series where he basically made every single shot? Like what can you say about KCP's third quarter? I think it was in game three where he basically saved the game with a bunch of pull-up twos and like huge spot threes. And just like watching Bruce Brown play basketball is just makes me really tired. I feel myself sweating when I'm sitting on a couch watching the game.

He's just, he's like very skilled, but he's an energy hustle guard. Like he's so weird. And he's so like outside the box with what he does and what he's asked of him. But he always comes up with the big three. He had that coast to coast push that I think like either cut the Lakers lead to like a one possession or two position game or gave Denver the lead I can't remember but um always just makes those plays that are just like so demoralizing and he just must be such a nuisance to play he he uh flashed the lakers uh signature mr what is the what is there a three point celebration called

where they like tap their forearm and they give the little three every time they're the veins thing yeah the we'll call it the veins thing that's probably what everyone else calls it I'm sure. He flashed that to them after he hit a three at the end of game three. Almost fought Phil Handy. It looked like that was going to happen. Lakers assistant Phil Handy, which was very funny. Yeah, he's become a sneaky shit-talker.

He is. He's the best. The Nuggets are awesome. I'm so happy that they're in the finals. They're the best that, like, just the way they play basketball. I haven't seen it played this way since, like, it kind of reminded me of like the 2014 San Antonio Span. You know what I mean?

Like, just like a lot of talent, a lot of know-how, a lot of institutional knowledge, continuity, as you said, chemistry, but just like also amazing selflessness, amazing shot-making. And it revolves around like this brilliant man in the middle. And yeah, I don't even know. It's just there's so much fun to watch. I'm really looking forward to the NBA finals. Yeah, it's kind of a testament to how awesome and undefinable basketball is right now. that there are two guys on that roster that you could call point centers

and they're Bruce Brown and Niccolo Yokic who could not be more different in their profile and how they play. But they, yeah, they play incredibly well around each other. This roster too, I mean, MPJ is 24, Brown 26,

Gordon 27, Yokic 28, Murray 26. They're going to be around for a while now. Make a fast break to Fantuel during the NBA playoffs because right now, new customers can get a no-sweat first bet up to $1,000. That's $1,000 back in bonus bets if your first bet doesn't win.

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1877-7-7-0-stop at Louisiana. Visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland, 1-800-2-470 in Wyoming, or visit www.1800 gambler.net in West Virginia. This is actually a pretty good place, I think, to pivot to the Lakers because, man, like, I'm just thinking, like, where do they go from here, you know? And you look at the West, and I don't know how they, I guess, like, you know, I don't want to coronate the nuggets as, like, the next dynasty. But at the same time, like, they're going to be around for a while.

And this run, while there are parts of it for the Lakers that I think are sustainable, It just feels like post-deadline. This was lightning in a bottle for them. And this was a moment to capitalize on it. And they just didn't. And they've, yeah, there's just a lot of interesting questions about their future. Well, the first name that pops into mind when I think about their short-term future was sitting courtside, watching this game. Mr. Kyrie Irving.

I don't know if you want to start there and there. I guess I just brought his name up so we can just begin right there. I mean, the Los Angeles Lakers will, they have a bunch of free agents on their roster, including Austin Reeves, who I'm sure we'll spend a lot of time talking about. But DiAngelo Russell lost his starting spot in this game, Dennis Schroeder started over him. And I have been on the train that he is not good for a long time. And he was not good in this series. He is an amazing, tantalizing talent and shotmaker. And he hits these followways in the mid-range

when he snakes around a pick and roll that are contested where it's just like he rocks slightly back on his heels and just it's so pretty when it goes in. But basically everything else about his game is garbage. And he's an unrestricted free agent this summer. They traded a first round pick, unprotected, to get him, which, you know, they're out, and I'm sure they enjoyed this run. And, hey, when you're in the conference finals, anything could happen.

Nicole Yokic could have sprained his ankle and they could have made the finals, who knows. So whatever, you make that trade. But that will be a really costly asset out the door when the check comes to clear. So I think they will have to replace the Angela Russell. I don't think that they're going to keep him on the roster. and Kyrie Irving is an unrestricted free agent who they obviously flirted with before the trade deadline. That was the guy that they wanted. Couldn't get him.

And like, are they going to get him? It's just like a foregone conclusion. Am I talking crazy? Man, I don't know. So Tim Cato, the Athletic reported a couple weeks ago that there was no interest there from the Lakers part. This was obviously when DeAngel Russell was obviously playing a lot better back then. And I, it might be wishful thinking too. Like, I kind of feel like why.

Which let's, yeah, I don't, you flustered me by bringing up Kyrie. I'm sorry. Let me just, let me frame it like this. So if you go after, the reason why I'm talking about Kyrie is because to have interest in him, you have to be desperate as an organization. We just saw LeBron James basically pass off

pick and roll responsibilities for an entire playoff run, a lot of pick and roll responsibilities to Austin Rees, who I'm assuming they will retain, and Dennis Schrooter. And is he going to do that again? Like, it's probably not. We just talked about DeAngelo Russell.

I don't think he's going to be back. So, like, this team is desperate. Their offense was really bad for a lot of these playoffs. And they're a little starved of the type of talent you need to win an NBA championship. And to get through a regular season where, like, LeBron's foot,

like who knows what type of injuries he will face when he, I'm assuming he's going to have to have surgery this summer. And through an 82 game, another grueling 82 game regular season in what will be what is 21st season in the NBA, 39 years old next December, they're just going to need, it's the whole point of trading for Russell Westbrook. this was the philosophy.

So I think that they should, I mean, should. I don't know. No one should. But they're kind of forced to be interested and get into the Kyrie Irving business. LeBron, I'm sure, wants to play with Kyrie again. He had a lot of success with him before. He probably thinks that if he had Kyrie on his team this year, that they would have won this series. So, yeah, that's just like how I would frame it.

But do you think it's less realistic than I do? I just don't think that they're that desperate. I think that. So, okay, let's start with LeBron. LeBron, through the course of his series, consistently looked better. He looked healthier and healthier every game. And then obviously, this game, he's driving to the rim. He plays 47 minutes.

He basically sits down for like four seconds. He plays on both ends. And I think that when you talk about the Westbrook, formula, right? I think that was designed for the regular season. So first step of the off season is retain Austin Reeves. I imagine that he will get paid more, well, he'll get an offer in restricted free agency that will be probably more than what the Lakers want to pay him. I'm sure there is a team out there that would be happy to screw the Lakers. He also has a very interesting sort of,

like the contract structure is very interesting because he was on. undrafted and only you know is going into his third year the arena's provision basically means that he can only be paid around 12 million per year in his first two years and everything after that would be backloaded. Lucky for the Lakers, the cap is likely going to spike the first, like in the third year of Reeves deal. So I think you just deal with that. You retain him. He's awesome. He has, I don't even know what his ceiling is. You know, like I think it's probably so much Okay, let's settle down. I'm saying it's probably somewhere around like one to two time All-Star.

He's really good. Yeah, I think he's really good. I think he can play on both ends. He makes really tough shots. He's a really smart playmaker. He had a great run. Pretty much from after Russ was traded, everything more that they gave him,

he pretty much ate up. He can be really efficient. I mean, there's times that, you know, his mid-ranger just doesn't, it doesn't always show up, but he's overall really consistent with a tough shot. He's kind of like, I always look at him like a playmaking sort of like poor men's SGA, which is pretty damn good.

And he, yeah, I think he's got a really high ceiling. I mean, you also got to look at his previous improvement, his work ethic, and think that, yeah, this is just a guy that you want to invest in and have be like the point guard of the future, which to me dovetails really well with the fact that LeBron is not going to want to do that for 82 games. And if you look at some of the way, like the way that he played in January and February was incredible. I think the problem with LeBron this season was that he had to actually play really well for the Lakers to even have a shot up until they made all those trades. To make the plan. He's heard.

And they end up going, they end up being able to hold water, which is what he needs in a regular season. So I think that like I obviously don't, nobody knows what's going to happen with all their time. Nobody knows what's going to happen with his offseason. But he played really, really well in the back end of this season. series. And I think that he can just do a little bit more load management next season. And if there was like a better version of LeBron this series, I think that's what this series in particular hinged on. So, you know, you got a hold for that. To me, the real concern with the Lakers is that in terms of sustainability is Anthony Davis is just like, are you going to get another healthy Anthony Davis run? Which is why I think you really just man, like this had to be such a frustrating game if you were a Lakers fan just because of all of these adjustments that can. came way, way too late. Like you mentioned Russell coming off the bench. He got fourth quarter minutes.

I don't know why he got fourth quarter minutes. He hit like one shot after a screen from Tristan Thompson who played in this basketball game. We actually, you know, he had some moments in this basketball game. And he immediately turns it over and then loses Bruce Brown in a cut. And you're like, what the hell is this guy doing in the game? Like we know, we've known since game one, he shouldn't be on the floor. The Rui, the Ruehokich thing, too. It's like he should have been starting it in game two.

LeBron should have been guarding Yokage way longer. Like they had plenty of evidence for adjustments that they didn't make. This needed to be game three for them. You know, this just needed to be game three for them and it wasn't. And that's the other thing. You kind of hope that like Darvin Ham takes us as a learning lesson too, right? Like he's, I think for a rookie head coach being thrown into the situation, he's done a pretty good job. But like there's also just places where I think like this is a roster overall where you look at it.

look at Jared Vanderbilt, who didn't play in this game. And they should be so much more versatile defensively. They should be throwing so many more looks at you. I imagine Ham will be back, but if I were the Lakers, I would look for like a more creative defensive specialist to bring onto the bench and just see what you can do there. So I don't think all of that is to say, I don't think they're Kyrie levels of desperate. I think the kind of issue becomes that you have to pay Reeves. You have to pay Hajimura who you traded three second round picks for it and he

panned out better than anybody could have possibly imagined. This is an absolute dream, but it's going to be a costly dream for them. And then the role players are all I mean, Schroeder, I imagine he's going to want to get paid. I think especially after how things panned out for him last time

like he's just going to probably be looking for some sort of long-term consistent deal. And then yeah, I don't know. I think to me it's like you retain the two guys you have to retain you talk to Schroeder I don't think that's necessarily going to go that well if you want to bring him back to the minimum again

and then you try to just get role players around them you try to get shooters and see where you are from there I don't think it's a great I don't like I don't know it's not ideal right but at the same time I don't think this is a team that needs to be looking at itself and being like do we need to bring in Kyrie Irving I think that they just don't have a lot of

options are a lot of resources. And I'm definitely not as high on LeBron as you right now after watching this postseason and just the reality of his situation. Like he did get better, I guess, as the series went along. But the LeBron that we saw tonight, he couldn't be that in game three. You know what I mean? Like this was basically like, all right, like the chips are down back against the wall. Like I'm now just going to spend every single ounce of energy that I have in my body.

and we're going to see what happens. And he played great for two quarters and then he went one for six in the fourth quarter. Like, that's just where he is at in his career. There was like no lift whatsoever on what would have been the game tying basket where he drove right at Jamal Murray, nearly got stripped,

and barely got the shot up at the rim. So I just think, like, is this, like, what is the expectation, is the expectation to win a championship or, like, contend for a championship? because I just like don't think that they're as close as a lot of people do. And when I look at the Western Conference, like a lot of teams, first of all, they're nowhere near as good as Denver, right? So Denver's not going anywhere.

Denver will probably lose Bruce Brown, but they have a really smart, savvy front office. It's going to be interesting to see how they replace him. You know, there's the Phoenix Suns that are going to be, I would assume, a little bit deeper. You have who else? I don't even, Golden State Warriors, I know they beat, but the Golden State Warriors will probably make. How do you feel about like a Chris Paul, DeAngle Russell's sign in trade situation? Oh, man. Wow.

I'm going to have to sleep on that one. I don't know. That's a very old basketball team. Reunate LeBron with his banana boat buddy. And, you know, Russell and Book are pretty tight too. Sure. That would be interesting. I like where your head's at.

But I think Austin Reeves had a very impressive playoff run. His numbers were great. More than the numbers, just how he carried himself. Huge shot maker. This was his first playoffs. And he looked like someone who was so comfortable with the ball in his hands in crunch time, different coverages. He read it all.

He was very impressive. And honestly, like, you went through the Gilbert Arena's provision. The most a team can offer is non-taxpayer mid-level for the first two years. And then, like, I do think that some team, I think this should happen and I hope it does. Like, I think some team should offer the max on those last two years. And Austin Reeves, like, very impressive players. player. I don't think he's ever going to make...

I mean, look at who made the All-Star team this year. I don't think he's ever going to make an All-Star team. But it would be really fascinating to see someone just try to screw the Lakers and just throw that type of... I know, poison pill is not technically the most accurate term. But that type of contract. Yeah, that's a good call. Force them to match that because they can't afford to lose him.

It would be a total disaster. No, and like every, all the report, like, Stein reported that the Lakers have no, like, no designs on losing him. Like, they, they will match virtually any offer. But, I mean, I don't know. I just, now I'm just thinking math-wise, what does that even look like? Because the team that offers him a contract, they can just pay him regular. It's a Lakers that would have to pay like that weird backloaded deal. So if you offer him a max, like, what does that even look like in the back end?

It's going to be hilarious. and like you've already got 93 million tied up in in LeBron and Davis and that's going up too. So yeah, it's going to be, I don't know, it's going to be interesting. I think honestly, I have to admit that you're making points here. I just, I don't want to talk about Kyrie Irving being a Laker on like May 22nd ahead of the NBA finals. I think I sabotage this whole discussion. I apologize to you. I apologize to our listeners.

I'm really on tilt. I'm really on tilt about it. It's tough. But yeah, I mean, look, it's not a disaster for the Lakers. They had a wonderful season. Like, they exceeded, in my opinion. I know a lot of people think I hate the Lakers and whatever. But like, I think that they totally exceeded expectations.

Fair to say. What were they, the seventh seed, I believe? And, you know, took down a damage. damaged and injured Memphis Grizzlies team in the first round convincingly. And I just thought where they showed their medal was against the Golden State Warriors in round two

a series that I thought, like I was stunned that honestly they handled them the way that they did. And a couple of those games could have gone either way, but they won and they did not have home court in that series. So I just think the length of a regular season will not be

LeBron's friend, will not be Anthony Davis his friend and the Western Conference has a lot of really good teams. He didn't mention the Sacramento Kings. I know that John Moran is probably going to get suspended forever, but that team has stills a lot of talent and a lot of fight, and they're not going to go anywhere either. And the Clippers are the Clippers, a team that's had the Lakers number forever.

So even just not making the plan, like we didn't mention Luca Dantius' team. I know that they're probably going to stink or could stink and have a lot of holes in their roster, but that's just like another team with another superstar on it that you've got to worry about. So, Thunder, Shea. So, yeah, it's just going to be really difficult. And they're aging and they need more shooters. Like, there's a lot of question marks. And I think, like, worrying about tomorrow will happen tomorrow.

and their fans should celebrate the season that they had. It didn't end the way that they wanted, but I think they have a lot to be proud of. And they turned it around in a way that frankly shocked me. I did not see this coming, despite many people after the All-Star break thinking that they could make a run like this, I just never believed it could be.

And so congratulations to them for making it this far. Yeah, it's weird. It's like they were able to build a foundation, but that foundation is old and we don't really know what's going to happen with like the two biggest pillars of it but at the same time those two biggest pillars are you know

one of the best duels of the NBA when they're healthy so it's like they're always going to have a shot and they always got to go for it but at the same time it is tough and it's just yeah like you know if you're a Lakers fan I imagine there's a mix of celebration for what this team was I mean man they got off to a

two intense start and like look I have been to plenty of Lakers games this year the vibes were horrible. They were horrid. The early season Westbrook experience was not good. Just the fact that they got to play some good competitive basketball

and go this far as good. But on the other end, it's just like, it's got to be frustrating because this was a really, really good shot for them. Do you want to spend a couple minutes talking about Anthony Davis?

Like, I feel like he had an amazing playoff run on the defensive end, which, is getting overlooked a little bit because of the fact that he had to guard and then not guard Nicole Yokic. But like I should, I don't know that against anyone because no one can guard that dude. But offensively, he was just like oft criticized in a way that sometimes was unfair and

sometimes just spoke to how frustrating this dude really is. Like, is he a, I just remember like coming out of the bubble, I wrote a column about how I thought that this was going to be his reign. Like, he was going to be the best player in the world. And it's just like never happened. And he's just like never really gotten back to that level on a consistent basis. And now he's 30 years old and falls over a lot. Like even watching tonight's game, the way he tries to finish through contact almost always results in him falling over. It's frankly bizarre.

I like is he just trying to draw cheap fouls? I don't know, but he should probably not do that anymore because he's fragile. But like I'm not advocating for the Lakers to trade him at all or anything like that. I just think he's a really interesting, I don't know what he is. Like he's a variable, I suppose. I don't know how reliable he is. And that is just an interesting. interesting thing to consider.

Yeah, I mean, he, man, he's also got to be celebrating a little bit from being trade bait earlier this season. And, you know, the, the world being pissed when he wasn't on all defense. Just quite the, quite the run for him reputationally. But yeah, I mean, I agree that sometimes those criticisms are unfair. Like, if you kind of play it back to the bubble season, he shot 38% from three in that bubble. And also, like, you know, I think it was a game two or game one where you actually. actually hit a three-pointer to win the game on the nuggets.

And he was developing into a very different player, a much more graceful player who had a much better touch than the one that we see today. Right. Like, I think his game has increasingly become more and more brutish. Like, that's part of the reason that I think he's so inconsistent on offense. Like, one of the things that he'll say pretty much after every bad offensive performance is, you know, it took the same shots that I took the last. game, they just didn't fall. And I don't think that's always true, but I think it's more often

true than we give him credit for. And I think that's part of the problem, you know, like everything that he does at this point is within eight feet. And I think part of that is just not being healthy, you know, being able to develop, especially as a big man, as a shooter, like he's just had so many injuries that have thrown off his consistency, right? Like, he's just not, he doesn't really bother taking threes anymore. He honestly, he hardly even shoots off the pop in the mid-range anymore, right? Like, that's just not, those are things that were part of his game that are pretty much just not part of his game anymore.

And I don't know, like, I'm attributing that to injuries just because I feel like that is the most obvious answer. So maybe if you give him a healthy off season, he kind of gets it going as a scorer a little bit more. But yeah, just really clunky, you know, just the footwork hasn't been the best. A lot of things that I think, like, to your point, were there. developing after that bubble season. It just kind of completely fell off a cliff. Yeah, I think the injuries and health issues are for sure the culprit, but then also

like roster construction. So like he's full time at the five now. He was not that in the bubble when they had Dwight Howard and Javelle McGee. And I think they had another big man on that roster, which is really funny to think about. But he just like had to shoot threes then and had to shoot jumpers and he was out of the paint for more than you probably should have been. And now, you know, as a pick and roll man, as someone who gets a lot of their, uh, who has to create a lot of their own offense on putbacks and offensive rebounds,

it's just a little, the shot profile is obviously different. But I have a trivia question for you now that I'm, look, I'm on basketball reference looking at his, uh, his stats from the playoffs in his career. He hit 23, three-pointers in the playoffs in the bubble. Do you want to guess, how many threes he's made since in the playoffs?

Ooh, that is a good question. In the playoffs, so they had, I mean, they had that first round. And then did he hit, he hit, he hit like, he had a few threes in this series. Man, like five. Oh, you're so close. Well, he hit seven total. So he had two in 2021 and five in this postseason. So amazing guess.

That stat is very worrisome, though, regardless of how you want to construct your roster. I think he should definitely be shooting more threes. But he had 30 blocks in the bubble and 47, not including this doesn't update. This hasn't updated for his blocks tonight. And I'm too lazy to look it up and do the math and add what he did tonight in this game. But incredible player who I feel like is not as good as he should be is how I would describe Anthony Davis, which is a bummer because he's like, he's got transcendent talent and got his ring

and just hasn't really been the same two-way, consistent night-in-night-out force that the Lakers obviously expected him to be. And his health going forward is the number one most important thing, I think, for the organization. But, yeah, fun Western Conference finals here. This was fun to pot about. I had a lot of fun doing it.

It was. I wish, I wish, you know, we got some close games. I wish it was a longer series. I wish the Lakers made a few better decisions. I think that it would have been a longer series. I think when you look at, you know, Yokic just being able to figure Vruy out tonight, amongst other things,

when you look at just Jamal Murray being an absolute flamethrower. And then you just kind of, I don't know, it's kind of like playing like like hungry, hungry hippos or something. like you just you can't get great game great game great game and you just i don't know you can't deal with everything that Nuggets roster you just can't and uh yeah they would have they would have won it no matter what and i'm really excited to talk about the NBA finals uh next week

do we have to transition now to talk about the eastern conference finals which has just been like uh i don't even know it's like honestly it's so bizarre i'll just say like coming out of the second round, I feel like we had really awesome matchups. And we had these like back and forth series where there were like plot points and adjustments and strategy. And it was like really cool to dissect and analyze. Then like the conference final started and one of the series is already over. I like blink my eyes and it ended. And then the other one between the Boston Celtics and the Miami Heat like heavily favored Boston Celtics. finish the regular season, number one in net rating, up against a team that had a negative point differential in the regular season, just getting boat raised in game three. And probably the, I was talking to my dad yesterday about this, just ranking the worst Celtics losses of my lifetime. And number one is game seven of the 2010 NBA finals.

Number two is game four of the 2022 NBA finals, the Steph Curry game, the best game Steph Curry's ever played in the playoffs. And number three is game three of this series right here. That was just atrocious, like, watching them quit the way they did early in the third quarter. Like, it's the conference finals. Like, how does this happen? I don't know. Should we talk as if the series is over and just, like, throw some speculation about what's going to happen next with this team?

Because a loss like that. after two relatively competitive, but still two losses at home in the Eastern Conference Finals when you're the heavy favorite or embarrassing enough, but to lose as they did in game three, just like a direction shifting catastrophe for the organization in a lot of ways. Do you think if they get swept, I'll just start here. Do you think if they get swept, Missoula's out? I mean, I don't know how you keep him. I don't know where you fall out in this whole timeout gate thing, but I think that regardless of, of what you think. Game two, fourth quarter,

you got a timeout left. Why give up? I don't know. That's just the one where I look at it. I'm like, I don't like, whatever the analytics say about whether timeout stop runs,

I tend to just believe that even if the analytics don't say it, like maybe just call the time out and try to stop the bleeding anyways. It seems like a pretty reasonable strategy. I don't think everything falls on Missoula. No. But that's kind of, I mean, I was kind of going to ask you, what's been like the single most disappointing factor for you in this series?

Their defense, like by far. Like, their defense ever since they went to Atlanta. Trips to Atlanta will do that, you know? Sure. Have a great city. Hell of a city. A lot of fun. But I think their defense since then is like 13th or 14th in the postseason.

like it's just they finish the regular season number two in defensive rating behind the Cleveland Cavaliers. They have unbelievable personnel. Like everyone on their roster, everyone in their rotation could make an all defensive team. And for them to just, I mean, you name an area of defense in this series and it's not being executed. And this has been a trend in. the Sixers series, like, thank goodness for the Celtics. James Harden is James Hardin, and Joel Embed was on one leg for a lot of the series, or I guess the whole series, because, like, their defense just is not championship caliber.

And it was really disturbing after game three, after an entire season where all the talk was, like, our offense let us down in the NBA finals. our offense was why we nearly lost to the Miami Heat in last year's conference finals. Like we need to change like our philosophy on offense. We need to shoot more threes. We need to, you know, drive kick. We're just like changing the schemes there. That was the whole like narrative of their season and their identity, all regular season.

And then after game three of the conference finals, everyone's like, yeah, defense has been our identity. We got to get back to that. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? Like you punted on this like, I don't even know how many months ago, but this has not been a serious part of who you are as a basketball team. So I don't think you're going to find it overnight. I think the series is probably over even though if any team could come back down 03,

given just like the circumstances. It's like one of the best teams in the league versus Gabe Vincent, Caleb Martin, Max Trues, obviously Jimmy Butler and Pam in a battle. You think Jimmy Baller is going to lose four games in a row? No, I don't. Absolutely not. And I don't think I'll ever see that happen in my lifetime, to be honest with you. But like, yeah, I'm not even going to go there.

I don't think that, I don't think it's possible. I think it's much more likely that they get swept. But their defense to answer your question is like by far what has been most disappointing. And you have to give credit also to all those guys I just mentioned who have just been like, like Second Spectrum has their shock quality. and expected effective field goal percentage. And the Miami Heat in this series so far, it's only three games. But in their entire database, Second Spectrum's entire database,

Miami is, you know, quote unquote, the luckiest shooting team of any team in any playoff series, I guess going back to 2012 or 2013, however long they started tracking the stuff. So shout out to them for hitting ridiculous shots. A lot of them are open, but they're knocking them down at a rate that's like, I mean, 48% of their threes to the Celtics, 29% of their threes. In a lot of ways, that is just like the series. So bummer for Boston. I mean, look, you call it luck.

I call it heat culture. I think we have to stop the podcast. I think that's it. It was really great talking to you. No, you want to, you want to know the one thing that I thought was, An absolute crime. And this is kind of a hot take, but I think you'll agree with it. Taking Grant Williams out of the game after he was drawing with Jimmy Butler.

Because those moments are kind of an opportunity. And while Jimmy was kind of going out of his way to hunt him on one end, the heat don't play. Like, you're just going to keep doing that over and over again. And the thing is, like, he was the only one bringing it back on the other end. Like, he had two good finishes at the rim. one of them was a cut when when Tatum was driving into no man's land and had you know really no escape hatch until Grant Williams cut as he was often wanted to do and then he hit a corner three as well and pretty much as soon as it took him out of the game it was like no one else really wanted to respond now obviously it's on like Jalen and Jason to do something but he was playing really well and I think he was ratcheting up the intensity and I just don't know why you like find ways to get Jimmy off of him sure but I don't know why you take him out When I talk about, like, you don't take seriously defense as your identity, not playing Grant Williams a minute in game one is you don't take defense as your identity seriously. That's not, I don't believe you. So, like, where is all that coming from? It never made sense to me. Going back to, I know, like, in a five minute sample size or whatever, they weren't great. But, like, deserting the big, double big lineup.

in game three, changing the starting lineup back to Derek White after everyone on the roster was like, oh my God, Rob Williams is starting. This is amazing in game six of the second round. I just, that's so interesting to me. Yeah, I mean, they end up having to go back to it too after, I think it was after Bam got that dunk on. Because Rob Williams has been like the, he's been like the third or fourth best player in the team, maybe even better than that. I don't even know. He's been really good in this series. not closing game two with him because you wanted to close with Horford because honestly like the rationale that Joe Mazula gave after the game was uh and pardon me if I

sound like I'm just like on talk radio whining about stuff but Joe Masula's rationale after game two when asked why he didn't close with Rob Williams over Al Horford was Al Horford has closed every game of the playoffs and it's like well that's a dumb reason what do you He hasn't been playing as well. You have a guy who's been playing better, so you should play him. You know, whatever. It's his first year as a coach, and that was a mistake. But yeah.

Yeah. I'm flustered now. One thing I'm remembering now is when we did our preview for that series, one of the things we talked about was how the heat were not going to be able to hunt Peyton Pritchard this time around. because the Celtics have a healthy perimeter rotation. Seriously. They sign Malcolm Broad. Good Lord.

Oh my God. Don't even get me started. Yeah, I don't know, man. It's just like, when we talk about all of that, then I kind of tend to go back to, yeah, like, a lot of this falls on Missoula, which obviously it does. But you don't want to also take away from the fact that a lot of it, I think, falls on Tatum. A lot of it falls on Brown. I mean, it falls on everyone. Horford just didn't look, didn't look good.

Um, you know, obviously kind of, you can replace him internally for, for the most part. You got to figure something out there though. But yeah, I don't know. That's, it's going to be like, do you think they blow it up like or just not blow it out completely, but do you think they get rid of Brown? So that's a fascinating question because obviously he is now eligible for a five year, $295 million super max extension, $295 million. He is shooting two for 20 behind the three point line in this series.

he is shooting 37% from the floor. He is two for four in the series from the free throw line. I did not look any of those up. You can fact check me. I know them by heart. He has been really bad. He has been really bad in this series. And honestly, it's only one series.

I don't know if his hand, he's got a, I don't know what's going on with that thing. After he cut it flowering or watering his flowers or something, whatever the excuse was, cut it on a vase. But to no show as... Do you think he was like listening to Flowers by Miley Cyrus thinking about how Tatum wanted to trade him in the offseason? Possible.

It's fine. I wouldn't put it past him. But I think that... Okay, let me ask you this. If you're the Celtics, do you go into the offseason with him and you say, hey, Jaylen. Hey. You had a, hey, buddy. Hope you're doing well. You know, you had a great season, second team, all-MBA, your second All-Star team, you're 26 years old. We drafted you. We developed

you. You developed here. You matured here. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, $295 million is a lot. And I believe no team can offer you more than $250 on the open market. What do you say we split the difference and, you know, how about 270 over five years? Does that sound good to you? Like, what does Jalen say then? He says, does he hang up the phone and just that's it? I'm out? I think I say maybe I trade the $20 million for the opportunity to actually make my own decision for the first time in my NBA career as opposed to being in trade rumors for the next five years as I've been like for pretty much most of my career. Yeah. So, I think that that would potentially happen as well.

Does he have an agent yet? He has an agent, yes. Yeah, he has an agent. Oh, wait, he's with Jason Glution, right? Yes. Okay, yeah, yeah, all right. Who also represents Horford. Correct.

Yes. Who just signed it to your $20 million extension. The Jalen Brown thing is really interesting and is a pivot point. It's critical for the Celtics. It's like one of those things where you should be really excited if you're going to give someone the Supermax and then they have. sign it. Like, that should be a celebratory situation for you as an organization. And I don't feel like the Celtics would feel super duper pumped to give him that money because like 35% of the cap is a lot

for someone who, like that type of contract, he earned it. Like, shout out to him. And he should ask for it. And he should not take a penny less, in my opinion, especially as a VP for the union. But that contract is for, it's really hard to build a championship contender going forward with someone who makes 35% of the cap who isn't like Yokic or Mbid or Janice or Steph Curry or frankly Jason Tatum. And he's just not, he's extremely good, but he has shortcomings that are really important as well. Most notably, the fact that, that he's never average more than three and a half assists a game. And I think he has 10 assists in this series and 11 turnovers.

Like that's kind of who he is as a basketball player. And so it's just like if you don't pay him and you lose him, you are screwed because I don't know, you can't replace that guy. And a trade is, I mean, we can go through some names right now about like trade. Like obviously there's like Dame or Paul George. Would that be therapeutic for you? Would it be helpful?

I actually wrote a column today. That was my therapy about this topic. So hopefully that's up on the ringer.com and you can go check it out right now as you listen to this. But there's a few names out there that like Jalen Brown expiring contract or not will be very, would be very attractive on the open market to any team that wants him because he's amazing. But I think like at the end of the day, Boston would be well served to give him the Supermax, give Tatum the Supermax when he is, when he is eligible to sign it next June or next July, and kind of just go from there because

they're both really good. And we just saw them beat this exact, basically this exact Miami Heat team in a seven game series last year, game seven on the road. I know people talk about the collapse, but like winning a game seven on the road against Jimmy Butler and being up double digits with two minutes ago or whatever. Like guess what? Really hard. So yeah, I don't, I just think they have to be patient and that really sucks. And this is a huge step backward for the organization. And yeah, it's a bummer for them. Man, like, imagine signing a $290 million contract and not feeling like totally psyched about it. That just feels like a plot straight around succession, like something that. like Logan would put in front of Kendall and he would just have to like be handcuffed and sign it because there's no other better deal. But you know, to your point though, like this is, it's a really young team, you know, like Tatum's only 25, Brown's only 26, Robert Williams is 25, Grant Williams is 24,

you know, Brogden, like Brogden's a little older, I think, but like, you know, it's just they're still really young and sometimes it takes a while to get over the hump. I do think, I guess my, my concerns. would just be the overall chemistry issues with Jason and Jalen. I don't think they've ever fit incredibly well together.

I don't like, yes, if they've found ways, but the ways that they've done are just like surrounding them with other playmaking. And as Horford ages, I kind of just have questions

about how you connect those guys together. I think there's a reason that, you know, even in men, like they, they really, before the heat series, cut down on turnovers in the postseason,

especially Tatum. but they kind of succumb to it again, amongst some other things. But things can get just really clunky for them. Neither of them are the best decision makers. And I think when you have two wings that, you know, want the ball in their hands a lot, you want one of them to be a little bit more fluid than either of them are. I think Tatum's a little bit of a better playmaker than that. She's certainly better than Brown.

But I don't think that he necessarily rises to the level where it makes up for it, especially when he's under pressure, at least not yet. I think he kind of took a step back on offense, like if you compare him to last year's playoffs. Yeah, he's certainly, I mean, he collapsed at the end of game one, was it? What was the one where he had like five straight turnovers and like three straight traveling violations? I think that was game one in crunch time.

That was not a shining moment. More than not, though, like he's super versatile offensively, I think. and, you know, the small, small pick and rolls that he runs with Marcus Smart are just like money and they always get good shots out of it. But I think like if we're talking about changes that this team will make, I think you, I mean, it's really hard to say this as someone who's watched so many Celtics games in my life. But like trading Marcus Smart, packaging Marcus Smart with picks, that contract, they have other. movable contracts. Horford's contract is only 10 million. You have Brogden and Derek White. I think these are really attractive players and you see if there's a talent upgrade in a way that would just like fundamentally change your identity on both ends. But I think like to your point,

Jalen and Tatum need to be more diversified and how they function. off the ball. They need to, like this offense needs to do more stuff when the threes aren't falling. Like, that's just the evolution of the team, that's what it has to be, I think, because when the threes aren't falling,

that's like it. They don't get to the free throw line. They're not really accessing the mid-range. Like, off-ball movement is, there is no off-ball movement. So you watch a team like the Denver Nuggets, when their threes aren't falling, is anyone worried?

Does anyone panic? No, they don't. Like, they have so many different tricks in their bag and ways that they can put the ball in the basket and just, like, attack the paint and put pressure and eventually the threes will fall. So I know they have, like, the best offensive player, one of the best offensive players of all time on their team,

but, like, I think schematically changing things and that will likely potentially, come with a new head coach who can hopefully get them to be more engaged when the ball is not in their hands. And then to your point, I do agree that adding even more

playmaking will be beneficial in some form or fashion. I don't know who that is or what that looks like, but they got to switch it up because like Malcolm Brogden is not a playmaker. Like he is a shooter. He wants to score. Having him

on the court with Jalen is just like not has not been a successful thing. And Derek White comes and goes with his aggression. So I think they need someone who's a little more assertive. I don't know who that is. And yeah, but, you know, good season for the Celtics, I guess, whatever. Cool. Good podcast.

There is no God. So not quite that therapeutic, I guess. But, yeah, two eulogies, two eulogies today. so I guess this is the appropriate tone. I think it would be offensive for it to be anything else, you know. I feel like my eulogy right now was better than Roman Roy's for his father, though. I haven't watched it yet. Oh my God.

It's okay. I mean, I knew it was a funeral episode, so it's fine. I don't think anything else. I don't think it was spoiled for me necessarily. I was going to try to make like a three funerals joke here. But just having not seen. I don't have it, but maybe that's what I'll do right after this. Okay.

I apologize. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate you bearing with me through this one. You know, I think it's really important to feel your feelings. It doesn't feel really good in the moment, but I think you're going to wake up tomorrow. Hopefully you'll feel a little bit lighter. If not, you know, doors always open. We can always talk.

But yeah, you know, let's just, you know, let's get, let's let's wrap up for some Nuggets heat basketball. one of Nicola Yokic or Jimmy Butler is going to win a championship in the next month. And that's just really exciting news if you're a basketball fan. So we'll talk to you guys about that. Probably sometime next week. Thanks, Michael. Thank you, Chris, Sutton and Ben Cruz for producing. And we'll talk to you guys next week.