The Ringer NBA Show - Where Do the Pacers Turn Without Victor Oladipo? | Group Chat (Ep. 374)

Episode Date: January 24, 2019

We digest the news that Victor Oladipo is out for the rest of the season by wondering whether the Pacers should push on for the playoffs or reset until he gets back (2:30). Then, we debate who has a more promising future: the Hawks or the Mavericks (27:53)? And finally, we finish with one final chat about Carmelo Anthony (39:05). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Haley O’Shaughnessy, Paolo Uggetti Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Basketball is very good. Jimmy Butler is actually a good teammate. Saabonis is the most important front court pacer. The Aaron Fox is better than Donovan Mitchell. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer MBA show. This is the group chat. Group chat.

That is Haley O'Shaughnessy. I said you I would do that better than you. You did it really well. I appreciate that. Also, as always, Paul are we getting? I'm never going to try to do that one. That's great. We like you just the way you are, Paula. Perfect.

Meet me in the tunnel, bro. So we're going to talk about a few things today. All-Star starters get tonight. Tonight is Thursday. We're also going to talk about, and probably the Atlanta Hawks versus the Dallas Mavericks and some of the things going forward with both of those franchises. Great job at making people stop listening right away. Well, you know, they come for us.

They just want to spend time with us. They don't care about the topics. We're also going to talk about mellow. Yikes. I'm actually very excited. time. Yes, I mean, too. Especially to hear Justin's things on Melis, which are always great.

It's going to be a lively, lively little segment here, especially because it wasn't in NBA slack the other day. But first, more on a somber tone, Victor Oladipo went down last night. Seemed pretty bad as soon as it happened. We got the news today from Shams Sharania, that it is a ruptured quad tendon. He's probably going to be done for the rest of the season. I guess kind of first thoughts here. Obviously, it's a bummer, but.

beyond that, I do wonder what it pretends for the rest of the season for the Pacers. Well, I guess it just is a question of, are they going to change direction? Yeah. And what this means for, are their front office going to just stay with this team? I mean, this team very likely would still make the playoffs. Probably wouldn't do much once they got in it. The question is, what are they going to do with the off season? Their plans as of now, they are definitely leaning into We Are a Win Now team.

I think that the Tyreek signing was like the biggest indicator of that. Everything that they did this off season was a big indicator of that. They were trying to put things around Depot that would work because that's what they were missing last year. And they have a lot of expirings this year. It seemed like they were only going to keep getting guys

who were win now. A lot of their players have looked better and have improved, which is encouraging. The timing for this is just, I mean, the timing anyway, we've been terrible. But the bonus has looked a lot better. Turner Turner is like a lot better defensively phenomenal yeah so everything that they've wanted to work out is kind of worked out and even of late Tyreeks looked a lot better

It's just it's such a bummer, but it'll be a huge bummer if they decided to change your actions It sucks because they were actually like one of the top teams in the East two and a half games out of first place 32 and 15 and this is why I think They can't really turn back the other way if that makes sense like they have they're they're way too good to try it on like tank for the second half of the season, which I don't think is even something they would do because they were still pretty good

when Old Depot missed some time earlier in the season. Now, of course, he limits him being out for the entire season definitely puts a hard cap on their ceiling in the playoffs like you mentioned, but I do think that they could still win a first round of series. Yeah, I guess the silver lining here, and we can get into how

this is kind of a bummer for All of Depot just because of how he's been playing the past two seasons after he left OKC and just kind of what it means for All-Star, which is like, it's always nice when a guy like Ola Depot gets nominated for those sorts of things because I think he plays in Indiana, first of all, which, you know, they don't get a lot of shine. But also it's like he went through the, like,

two different teams to start his career and finally came on the end. It's kind of like a symbol of like all the good things that he's been doing lately. I think on the silver lining is you get to see a little bit more for some of those young guys. Like you mentioned, Haley, I think, like, they have a lot of money coming off the books here. It gives us a chance to kind of see what else is there. in particular with Aaron Holiday, who guys, like I think everybody seems to be pretty high on. I don't have much of opinion on him yet,

just because I haven't really watched a lot of them. But I guess if you're saying going forward that we need to build the proper contacts around Oladipo, now you get a glimpse. It's basically what we were saying about Anthony Davis when he went down for this, what now appears to be what, one, two, four weeks.

You get to see what they have. Well, I think the other conundrum is that, so right now they're third in playoff seating. They're only two and a half games back from the first spot. And there's virtually no way that like the pistons who are in night, like they're going to be in the playoffs. Yeah.

I would even say that they're not going to drop lower than the fifth seed. I wouldn't completely, yeah, I wouldn't completely disagree with you. I don't think, I mean, maybe the Nets keep going on this run that they're having and they'll get the fifth seat. And then, you know, Pacers fall out to the six. But the east is just so weak that they already have such a strong identity and team that they're going to stay up there. Here's the issue with Depot going down. So the bucks are the top. the Raptors are second, right?

With this team exactly as it is before Ola Depot was injured, nobody is going to believe that the Pacers would beat them. I don't know. I was, I was entertaining the idea. Of which team? The Raptors or the Bucks? I thought they could have given them a series, yeah. They're not getting past them.

There was already sort of a ceiling on what they could do. There was already a ceiling as currently controlled. We were talking about them making a move with it. I mean, in Slack, about making a move with the deadline for Mike Conley, perhaps, and how that would, perhaps, give them that level that we would think that they could, you know, compete with those top teams.

And now it just feels like that's not even, that's like the least of their concerns. It's Indiana, a trade or the draft is the only way to bring another Star to Depot. And so it's just like, this is setting them back so much that he's going to be out for an entire season. Yeah. And like you guys said,

I think they have the defense there, their second still, their fourth and net rating. I think there is something there that they've built that will be able to sustain them throughout this run. I mean, I think the big question is more going. forward. Like, what moves do you make now? What moves do you make the next off season? And do we need to start worrying about Victor Olipo as a guy who maybe won't even be able to, to, like, reclaim the

heights that he's had the past two seasons? And you saw it even before he went down. I believe he missed double-digit games with the knee injury. I don't know how much of that connects to this kind of debilitating one that he had today. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some cause and effect there. But especially just with the way he plays. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's a great point. And I do wonder if that's going to linger even on into like the next season or even past that what you really have because they are an old people of run team. He's been really great in the clutch for them, for instance, even though his shooting percentage has been down. So you've already seen signs that like if he's not going to be that guy, I don't know what you do there. There's a little bit of more doubt than like maybe we should have had previously.

I just hope they're not super reactionary at the organization because I would like to see. let's see if Tyree can keep playing at this level. Let's see how much further Miles Turner can go. This is a pretty solid base. It's not nearly enough at the top. But I just really, really think it'd be a mistake to be reactionary to this. I'm also interested in how Aaron Holiday does. Like, the few minutes he had earlier on the season, he looked really good.

And there was even rumors that they were trying to trade Corey Joseph or one of Corey Joseph or Darren Collison because they wanted to give Aaron Holiday more minutes. and well, now he's going to get more minutes, you know, through a unfortunate situation. So that'll be interesting to see. Yeah, we'll see what goes down there. I personally would advocate for getting rid of some of these expiring contracts. It's only because, like, you're in the position where you're probably going to have to

overpay to keep them. There's going to be a lot of money available on the open market this summer or what we're expecting and not a lot of players to sign them. So I do wonder if a guy like Thad Young who's going to be 31 might get a richer deal than you're going to want to sign a player to. It's the type of deal that, like, I wouldn't want to sign a player to. and there are a few of those guys up and down the rocks or Tariq has been pretty average

most of the season even though he's come on a little bit later Boyon, Jesus, I always get the Bogdanovich's mixed up. But again, 29, this team is, they're kind of reaching their expiration date and so that's the issue they're kind of up against the clock in a way that I don't think we'd expect them to be. Right, and it's not the same advantage for

other, for some other franchises to have all that space in free agency because again, they're not a huge free agency destination. Yeah. I also don't know if this changes or I don't know what they'll they're going to do with Miles Turner or Sponis. Because it seems like they're going to, they're trying to play them together. And they've had a few stretches as of late where they've looked decent together.

But it does feel like one of them is going to have to be the guy that they pick, the big that they had, that they keep and that they pay. Well, they already paid Turner. But, you know, like, and I don't know if this somehow changes that with old people going out. I think if anything, it gives them more time to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah, it does set a different kind of date for them, if that makes sense, because they have to be more patient. They're forcing me more patient now.

But then that ties into what you're saying, which is they have these guys who are 29, like that young, 31, which they don't know what to do with. Right. And a bonus, I believe, I think next year is the last year of his rookie contract. So it'll be up for an extension this summer and going into November. So I do wonder what they'll do. I do wonder, I guess, kind of, this is another small silver lining,

but maybe Sabonis sneaks into the All-Star game to take Al-Dipo's place. Because as we've seen lately, the East All-Star lineup, it's pretty grim. And we can talk about that one right now here. We'll find out the starters tonight, which is Thursday. We'll also find out the captains, which I believe is mostly dictated by fan voting.

But the rest of it is fan voting, media voting, player voting, fans get 50% of the total. Media is 25%. Players are 25%. It's pretty bad in the East right now. Just to give you just a glimpse at who's leading the voting based on third returns. It's Janice, who's the leading vote getter, I believe overall, Kauai, Embed, Kyrie, and Dwayne Wade. That's in the east and in the west.

LeBron, Luca, our guy, Paul George, Steph, and Derek Rose for some reason. I guess general thoughts, do you guys care about All-Star to begin with? He's probably a good place to start. I don't know. I guess it depends on what you mean care about. I definitely think it's more entertaining now that they have captains selecting. They're going to televise the draft, too. YMCA style.

It's televised. We see what order they're picked in. I think that that makes it a lot more fun. I've said this a lot, and I really don't mean it in a curmudgeony way. I just don't think that we should have AllSAR on the same level as the other awards that we give out. With it being such a high percentage fan voting and with the way that fans vote, I mean, you see like Dwayne Wade in there, you see Derek Rose in there. It's kind of like they're doing it not based on basketball.

Yeah, totally. They're doing it based on the storyline. And that's kind of one of the essential questions that's always been about it. Is it more for the fans? Is it an event just to put on a show, a spectacle? Or is it just, should it be based purely on merit? Should it be? Well, that's why we have all NBA.

It is definitely for the fans. But I think that my only problem with it is kind of, when I am writing something and I put he's a five-time All-Star. Yes. Going forward, like that only is relevant in the context of someone being a popular player. I would say, though, that while I agree with that, I think there might be, I don't know what that threshold is, but there's a number, I think, where we get to that number and then it becomes, okay, this is, this is meaningful. Like, if you're, like, two-time All-Star and this guy made it in twice because of, like, popularity board or whatever, and not actually, like, merit. But if it's like a five-time guy or a seven-time guy, you're like, okay, like, that means something.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't think it has that, like, I think I agree with you in that it carries less weight than we maybe think. But I think if there is repetition over time of multiple appearances, then that should tell you something. I think if anything, I just think it means less and less. And then, like, the Wade and Rose thing is just such a, like, slap in the face to this season. I'm just like you couldn't have, there's no one more eligible, really, like, especially in the West. Yeah. Well, that's what happened with Kobe, too, right?

I mean, his last season. Kobe, I mean, Jordan's last season basically got in based on that. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of it. The starters are definitely fraught. I mean, it gets a little bit better because coaches decide the reserves, but even then they'll, like, nominate guys that you wouldn't expect. There's usually one or two guys in each class where it's like, I can kind of see it, but there were probably like two or three guys that are probably more worthy of that spot. And also, like, it results in people getting bigger bonuses.

Anthony Davis, memorably, didn't get put on an all-NBA team, but also, I believe he didn't get All-Star starter that year and thus lost what would have been an extra 5% of the salary cap. Right. It should definitely not be in contracts. That's insane. Which was always a difficult matter because as a media and you're voting on it, you essentially get to dictate whether or not this person gets more money, which should never be in the hands of, like, anybody. and makes it really uncomfortable when you have to tell him like, yeah, I didn't really vote for you. I can't remember. I think I'd voted for him.

Have you told somebody that? No, you go up to me. No, I think it's public. Oh, right, yeah. If you really cared, he could have looked up to see, like, what I did. I don't think he cared.

I thought you meant you told him to his face. I'm pretty sure I made it pretty public. I respect that. It's been a while. Yeah, wow. Voting. But I don't know. Like, I think you could see the discrepancy

in between just like the fan voting, first of all, and then, like, for instance, what Kevin O'Connor put on the site the other day. I think there's, in terms of just starters, since that's what we'll figure out tonight, I think there's, like, one spot in each of the conferences because even though we are going to do the captains picking teams here,

they're still divving up votes based on conferences. I think it is interesting. There's, like, one spot where it's like, it can go anyway. In terms of locks in the east, I would say Kyrie, Mbid, Yonis Kauai. All agreed. But then that last spot, which has to be a guard spot, which what is a guard to begin with? I have no idea.

But, like, who do you give that to? I would give it to the ultimate guard. Who's that? Bradley Pio. Ultimate guard. Like, he is, like, what is a guard? He is a shooting guard. Yeah, that's true.

You know, and I think he's been really good, especially without John Wallace. So I would give it to Bradley Pio personally. I'm going to Kenba. Not the ultimate guard? Not the ultimate guard. I'm not the ultimate guard. I'm making the penultimate guard. I will now forever refer to him as that.

Yeah. Kamba's an interesting one. Definitely like the hornets have slumped a little bit here. I believe they're eighth right now in the Eastern Conference. I think if anything. Seventh. All-Sar over all-MBA is worthwhile because Kamba should not make all-M-B-A. It's a different.

How much? I'm curious. How much do you guys factor into your picks how the team is doing? A little bit. So in All-Star, it's not nearly as much. Probably, for me, personally. Probably because there are more spots, I guess, in All-Star. Right.

What is L-MBA? 15, where we're divvying up 24 an All-Star, so you could be a little bit more lenient. I factored in when, like, it comes down to the West, for instance, and we're just, like, haggling over, like, a percentage point and assist rate or something like that. Like, then it starts to matter. So Anthony Davis, not your starting five.

Well, that's... Hey, you didn't vote for him? That's an interesting question Because that's another big one Wait, who's your guard? For the East. I would probably lean Simmons. That's a smart big game.

Which is what KOC had two. It's tough. That's why weight is like so crazy. That's three that all makes sense. It's all a fan like farewell. Yes. And this is the problem with players voting. I don't think anybody in the right mind is like

Dwayne Wade has been amazing. He should just manufacture like 30,000 jerseys, trade with everyone. Like, Ryan's Ram's jersey that he got from China for like $5. Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't feel good about the Simmons vote. I would vote like four different players in the West over him to start the game. Would you guys be like, because I know this idea has been kicked around is like scrapping conferences for the All-Star.

Yes. There's no reason that there should be. At least with a starters, right? Or anything, yeah. I mean, I imagine it stems from the same reason they don't. don't switch it for overall, which is like which East teams and executives and owners would ever agree to that. Like, it looks good if they have an All-Star. And it looks good for Charlotte, for instance, if Campbell Walker is starting in the All-Star game. So I don't know if it would ever

pass. Yeah, I would go Simmons. I don't feel great about it. Mola Depot would definitely have been the mix if he's healthy. And before that, there were issues like if he had enough games played. Other than that, there just aren't a lot of, like, qualifying guards, which is really just shows you the dearth of talent in the East here where like half the teams aren't even like worthy of the spot in the NBA. And the West is the front court though. You have currently, let's see here, Stefan Hardin, I think we could all agree, are pretty much locks or they should be locks, if not for Derek Rose or whoever the hell is going

to get in. Anthony Davis, K.D. and Yokic are who Kevin picked. What do you guys think? I think actually maybe even two of those spots can change. Oh, this makes me want to vomit. it. I would keep it the same and I'm so sorry, LeBron. I never thought this day would come, but he's just missed so many games. There's a lot of games. Oh, God, I feel so dirty. But you would keep the other two would you keep amongst 80 and KD?

ADKD. Yogy, yeah. I would do 80KD Paul George. Yeah, George is going to be the interesting one. It's really tough to leave him out. I also wonder, like, would you put him in over a stand? just because of the missed games? You know, no, because like there's another level to stuff that when he's on the court and how he's looked when he has played, that this is kind of maybe a little hypocritical in changing my like parameters, if you will, but it's so above everything else that you see that it transcends like the missed games, I think, with stuff in particular. Yeah, I would see, this is where I would knock AD for wins.

and maybe give someone like Yokic the nod simply because of that. I think this is where like because starter versus reserve in the grand scheme of thing doesn't really make much of a difference it ultimately probably gets skewed based on fan vote more than anything just because like

or popularity and then it gets into this whole dicey conversation about what is an all-star. I would probably go Yokic Katie LeBron if only because the Lakers have stayed in the playoff conversation when LeBron is healthy. I don't feel great about that.

I would just let Darren Fox play. Yeah. Start the All-Star game. But one of the interesting ones, I do think, is Luca being so high up there in the fan voting. Yeah. I don't know what it is. Maybe, like, Madrid comes out in full force in Slovenia. Yeah.

I mean, Dallas is a big market. And so, but all of a sudden, he's just as popular as, like, LeBron James, which is insane. Right. I mean, he's, you have to think about it this way. He was already coming into a league as a. teenager with a international fan base

behind them. That could be the case or they're just like working the Google machines and like I mean they're just like really active online voters

accusing them of making like Russian-style bots they could I wouldn't put it past them for Luca I would do it for Luca to fix this election yeah

I don't think he should be a starter or I don't even know if he should be in the Austin game Yeah, you just said he shouldn't. He's not in your starting lineup. Yeah, no, no.

I'm just saying, like, I get why the voting is this high, but I do think that there is value to how much we just converse about these players. Like, not that Ringer MBA is, like, representative of a larger sample, but we have probably, he's probably one of our three most talked about players this season, just in terms of what we are discussing. So, I mean, if that correlates out to, you know, not just Twitter, but the voting body of the fans and. That makes sense.

Well, it's kind of the opposite of, like, Wade and Rose and being reminiscent of them. It's exciting and it's new. I think it's actually pretty interesting to get a glimpse at what, like, fans think. And this is definitely fraught because, like, I don't know how these votes are getting tabulated. They can't do it on Twitter anymore because Justin Bieber got involved and all of a sudden, like, the Raptors players were, like, just through the roof in terms of voting. But I think it's, like, we know that Dwayne Wade shouldn't be there. We know Derek Rose shouldn't be there. Luca most likely not shouldn't be a starter.

Maybe he's a reserve. But all of a sudden, you start to see where people are gravitating to. And it almost like, it gets me out of my little bubble. You think that like, yeah, Dwayne Wade is a superstar who is beloved and plays in a Miami market that's among one of the bigger ones. Are you surprised at all that Ionis is not just as a starter being voted by the fans, but also like one of the top boat getters? Because there is a sense that I'm still thinking about he's a normal. Milwaukee and like that's not a big market. And like, yeah, he's amazing and he's very much like a highlight creator, which has a lot of, I think, currency these days in some ways.

But I'm just sort of surprised by that in terms of just the market. Because I didn't think he had that huge following in that sense. Yeah, that's a great point. I don't really get a good read on him. I get the sense that based on like some of the merchandising sales they release from the NBA, that he is pretty popular. Well, he also has an international following. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it speaks to this whole thing like, like, how big is the NBA internationally and how many these votes are coming internationally.

Some people really transcend their market and he's one of them. Kemba's an example of someone who doesn't. Yes. We never talk about Kemba. They're just not very good. I think Charlotte is the smallest. I think it might be New Orleans, actually, but New Orleans, Charlotte, Memphis are among the small. So I forget what podcast I was listening to the other day, but they were talking about which was the status team in the NBA that you felt like the most sorry for. And somebody said Charlotte, I wish I could remember. And I just totally agreed. It's like them are the Pistons. Pistons. Pistons for me. We're not talking about them for multiple reasons, but both of them are just so stuck.

Yeah. I don't know. The Pistons would be that choice for me just because, I mean, I don't know if everybody saw the Blake Griffin Ridge Jackson video last night. Yeah. I was like emblematic of this. pushes them to trading for Mike Conley. I mean, sure.

Why not do it? I would not wish that upon Mike Conley. That would be amazing. To play with this Blake, finally get off Reggie Jackson. That's exciting. I actually like Charlotte. I spent some time there during a playoff series. I think like...

Well, yeah, Charlotte's lovely. Good barbecue. Nice people. But that's not what we're talking about. The other issue there, I guess, the difference between Detroit and Charlotte is Charlotte is in the south and thus is a little bit more football leaning. Charlotte is very much a Panthers town. And so I think there's just not much of a...

fan base to draw from there. And like the team left for a while and then came back so there's that kind of divorce. But there is a certain nostalgia for that like adorable bumblebee mascot that they have. Yeah. It's really nice. Speaking of all stars, I'm going to make this transition. It's not going to work, but we're

going to go with it anyways. Guys, did you know that the Golden State Warriors are playing the Washington Wizards tonight? Rough. I think we're going to call this the watch of the night. What do you guys? I am really excited about the Washington Wizards going forward. I think Bradley Beal, the What did we call them the ultimate guard?

The ultimate guard. We need to get a Ringer T-shirt off of that. But I am super excited about this team. We were watching on a Sunday, I believe, Beal just go off in Toronto in that overtime game. They're one of the best watches currently. I think, I'm not just saying that because this is the second. No, I'm talking about the Wizards. Did I say the Warriors again?

How about that Tomas Satiransky? Am I right? I know. You should read about him. Only you could read about him on the Ringer.com. You should go do it. Extensively. But no, I think there's just something about that team.

There's like a little bit more of a spirit. And I think they're also really interesting to watch leading into the trade deadline. Because if they just kind of, they flub it over the next couple of weeks as, you know, the athletic reported the other day. I think there's a chance that like maybe Otto Porter is back on the table. It's really, really fun to watch Bradley Beale when he has this energy. Agreed. It's almost like he should be the center of the team. Yeah.

Imagine that. Imagine that. That game is on TNT tonight at 5 p.m. Pacific. We don't do Eastern time here, so you can make the math yourself. And remember, if you watch every NBA game, subscribe to NBA League Pass on MBA.com, Amazon, or your local cable or satellite provider. We're going to take a quick break, and then we're going to talk about, I guess, the Hawks and the Mavericks for a little bit. The Ring Your MBA show is sponsored by Brilliant Earth. Create your own custom engagement ring from a variety of ethically sourced diamonds, gemstones, metal types, and settings all at BrilliantEarth.com.

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the royal yore, like the world's your. Yes. Probably one of the best rookies ever. Maybe an all-star, as we just discussed. In my corner. That's your corner. Okay. Clearly, they have a lot of potential going forward with him, but I do wonder what they're going to put around

him. In the other corner, Palo's corner. Just Paulo, who were dropping the O'getty. Yes. The Atlanta Hawks, who traded the rights to Luca Donchich for Tray Young, have a lot of other good young guys John Collins Kevin Huiter

and a bunch of draft picks going forward The debate here is which team has I guess the best runway going forward I just want to say I don't like the adversarial nature of this because I'm pro-Luca like as pro-Luca as you can get

so that is not the argument here I want all the people voting for him to just turn all their attention to you I'm very much pro-Luca I just want to say that out front so I'm not anti the Mavericks and what they're doing. It was just a thought.

Yeah, he texted me the other day and thought, what did you say? I said kind of random or weird question. What if the Hawks actually have a better situation or core going forward than the Mavericks? This is what you guys are texting about? Yeah, I literally talked about. Are you okay? Yeah. It was just a random thought in the middle of the night. I appreciate the diligence.

And I know that that's hard to. sort of pars through him really think about because Luca is already such a transcendent talent. But I'm just looking at this Maverick team and I don't know what they're going to do around him. Now granted, that may become more clear in the next few months and the next year, which it should, given that they have a talent like that. But it seems like with the Hawks, and we've seen it as of late, they've really come on as of late. They have an identity, to have a system, they have a young coach who is willing to put in the time to develop these players. Mavericks. I don't know if they do. And they have a good front office. A lot of people from

the Warriors came to the Hawks. And Trey Young has like good in some spurts, tough and other spurts. But he has Kevin Herder. You have John Collins. You have another chance at a top three pick probably. I don't, I just, there's something about it that feels very progressive. And I do think that they they still need that Luca type star I don't think Trey, I don't know if Trey's

can be that or maybe he will at some point but in just in thinking about those two situations I just wonder, it's more of an indictment on, I guess not an indictment

but more of a curiosity about what the Mavs are going to do around Luka. Well, I think, you know, maybe we'll see the same kind of

change in Trey that we did in second year Deeran. But I just think that their timelines are so different. So that's why it's hard to compare.

Already Cuban is looking at Luca's, okay, like, great, we can pivot away from tanking. I hated that. And they are very much already in a win-now situation, not necessarily that they have the pieces, but that's their mindset. I mean, look at who they've surrounded them by. The only other young person they have was rumored to be in trades last week, Dennis McIntyre.

And who knows? Like, it seems kind of like he's unhappy, even though now they're, like, outwardly rekindling it. I'm not sure what's going to happen with that. in the offseason, but also the Mavericks have a lot available to them this offseason in terms of cap space. And I don't think it's going to be difficult for them to sign somebody. Yeah, I think it's an interesting look at just like the expectations you kind of foist upon yourself by making some of these moves.

Luca hits immediately and all of a sudden you're kind of expected to do something with that. I think they have a golden opportunity. I mean, we talk about this a lot because I think Kevin Clark and the NFL kind of like the tracks for this, that when you have a star on a rookie contract, you could do so much up. else with all those means. Like in the NFL, you could spread it around to your defense, all this other stuff. You've seen with the Sixers, and we've talked about this, Ben Simmons being on his rookie

contract, they can go out this summer and they still have enough cap space, I believe, if they get rid of Markell Fultz, to go add a fourth guy to what they've already existed and still have Jimmy Butler. And so they've almost put pressure on themselves by nailing that Luca pick. I think the thing with them is there's always been a question, are they a cap space team or is this the type of team that should have probably built through the draft

a long time ago? And like Haley mentioned, they're going to have a lot of money available, but who are they signing exactly? And so how does that affect what they're going to have? Because if they don't dig themselves out of kind of the trenches here,

they're not going to have the draft pick because it's top five protected. I think that the way to look at this is comparing it to last year with Donovan Mitchell, right? He broke all these records, shocked everybody. Nobody was expecting Utah

to suddenly build this team around him. That would be very, very difficult for Utah to do. Whereas with the Mavericks, I do think they have the ability to do that. I think that there are a lot bigger draw as an organization than we're giving them credit for. I don't know how players personally feel about Cuban, but I mean, there's some evidence that they, I mean, Chandler Parsons used to go to the club with him. Right. You know what I mean?

Like, there are far worse owners in bigger markets that you don't want anything to do with. Playing with Luca is an enormous draw. players can see that already. I think that they've been smart in the past. They've been smart with players that they have surrounded centerpieces with. Texas has no income tax. It's not L.A. or Miami, but it is a great franchise and it has a great fan base. There's the history there that I think that normally we only give to places like Boston or L.A.,

like younger players, especially now, see the Mavericks as a good organization. I wonder if players are going to want to be second pieces to a team where you have a 20-year-old as a leader of the team. Like what types of players are going to accept that reality? And like you just mentioned, there are plenty of things that could allure you allure players to the Mavericks. At the same time, you know, maybe not everybody might be cut out for ceding to a 20-year-old. Yeah. And I think a big thing is you see a lot of these guys who want to go play together. It's usually because they've laid those seeds.

like when they were 12, an AAU, and all these guys are friends. We talk about Anthony Davis. Hey, maybe he might go to Boston. I don't think that's even a question if Kyrie Irvin is there because those guys get along so well. So I think that is an important part of it. We don't factor in that a lot of these guys are just friends who've been playing with each other forever. On the other side of things, I do think it's really interesting that the Hawks have built this kind of really exciting context for him. If anything, they traded having one-star players and all the good and bad that come with them with having, like,

just endless opportunity. And it's a weird balance because, like, Luca, on one hand, provides you just the cornerstone that you can go forward with and, like, you just put the right guys around him and all of a sudden you have a title contender for the next decade. On the other hand, you have all these different pieces, but, like, you don't have the one piece.

And so I'm wondering, like, would you rather have the one and nothing else? Or would you just have everything else, but not the one? I think definitely the one, because what you have right now with the Hawks, I think not best case scenario, worst case scenario, but right in the middle is like young clippers right now. Whereas you think about like the best franchise in how many years, you know, arguably the best team in history grew from the ground up. Drafted Steph Curry.

Drafted Clay Thompson. You know what I mean? Like I think that getting someone in young and figuring out what to do around it with someone who's as talented as Luca like is 100 out of 100 times the answer. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard because I always think about the league this way and I talk about it this way. It is very much superstar driven and that is the key to winning getting that superstar. But I don't know. There is something about the Hawks that I find alluring in the sense that they, one of the, you know, like I said, I think Trayong is still a TBD.

But they, the groundwork is there for a player to, I don't know if there will be free agency down the line, but or for a player to come in and become. that Donran Mitchell type piece, you know what I'm saying? Or they could just draft Zion. Right. I mean, that's the thing I was going to say is they're going to have two top 10 picks. Potentially, yeah.

Potentially two top 10 picks. And because of the flat and odds going into this draft, they have an even better shot at their, you know, at their first pick going in the top three or maybe even top in top one. I think your best argument is not necessarily

the young core, but the picks they have going forward. Because if you put like someone likes, Zion in with that mix, then yeah, that's extremely attractive. What I think is really interesting is that all of that would have existed for the Hawks if the end

they could have just had Luca. Like if they just didn't make the Luca trade, they could have had John Collins and I believe Quirder they had that pick regardless of what happened with Dallas. And then some of these other guys that they picked in the back. So they just wouldn't have two picks in the end that's coming crap. But

again, Luca kind of transcends that because he's been so good. So I do wonder if you ask them, you know, on like truth serum or something, if they, if they like the back. And listen, Trey, regardless of all the kind of good and badities had up and down this year, you know, he has the Migo stamp of approval. And that's really something you can't put a price on. We're going to take another really quick break. And then we're going to go and talk about Mello once and for all for the last time ever. With two-thirds of guys experiencing noticeable hair loss by age 35, most guys assume losing their hair is inevitable as they age.

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Now I feel like you and I are debating. Yeah, well, we could throw Apollo in here too. I don't care about Mel. No, I'm just kidding. Our guy, Carmilla Anthony, finally left the Rockets. You would have thought that he left the Rockets, let's say, two months ago. But he wasn't. He was playing pool and doing other things on Instagram.

Fishing. Yes. Fishing. While still being on the Rockets roster, they traded him last week to the Chicago Bulls, essentially just to get off his luxury tax money. Unfortunately, James Nunnily was lost in the process. RIP, James Nunnily, who...

That was bullshit. I felt so bad. I didn't, I didn't. I mean, they could just sign them again in like a couple days. But the big question here going forward, I think, is what is left for one Carmelo Anthony? I think Kaylee had some really strong opinions that there is... The sense I got is, you still think that there's something left for.

this guy. I have a lot of pity for, for players, and not necessarily mellow in this exact sense, but for players who are put into a position that they are not equipped to handle, and then they are totally hated for it. The best example is Austin Rivers. Yeah. On the clippers. I mean, first of all... He got dogged by just like the conversation about him rather than his actual... Exactly. He had too many minutes. His dad was a coach. Like he was totally set up for to not handle the role that he was given. With Mello, I mean, he basically put it on himself. He was not willing to accept a smaller role.

He made such a big deal of wanting to be a starter. Even when he got to the Rockets, in the beginning, he was saying that. I mean, all the way back in OKC, the things that he was saying were just ridiculous. He laughed in that press conference where they asked if he would consider coming off the bench. It's like, look at what your buddy Dwayne Wade's doing. Yeah. You know, like, it's okay to age well. And when you set that standard, you probably won't.

I mean, look at his game. But here's my argument. Mello could still help a team in an appropriately reduced role with a change of heart. I don't think he's going to have a change of heart. And that's what's such a bummer. But I could name 20 guys in the league right now that he could be more helpful then. Yeah. My counter is more of like a pedantic sort of thing.

whereas I wonder how much of it has been willingness versus inability. I do think that Mel is the type of player when in a different era, he might not have had this sort of success that he had throughout his career. He's essentially a volume score. And while I think we diminish that a little bit more than we should, I think that that skill is just like super important. I think you could see that in the way that guys revere him. I think that when most of the league agrees that this guy is kind of a killer as a

score. We should kind of take note of that and realize that there are certain things that that pretends and how that helps a team that might not show up in a stat sheet. But I do wonder if that sort of game will not be able to be condensed into limited minutes. And so if you, it essentially comes down to the math where it's like if you were in efficiency but taking a lot of shots, that's fine because you can get points that way. But if you're doing it in fewer minutes, that just means you're a bad player. Yeah. And also when especially when you're

a minus on the defensive end. Oh, such a... And you're not bringing anything out. Which in the playoffs gets exacerbated. The Knicks did not do him any favors because they just let him continue playing as he had. There are other people who had similar style games who realized that they

needed to tweak things to age appropriately. Whereas he stayed with the Knicks, his ego stayed with the Knicks, first so long even after it was not helpful that he never really changed. He was averaging 30 minutes in his time with the Rockets. That is insane.

He's never going to help you in that large of a role. And plus, you know, they were having a really hard time and bringing him in at that point in the season was kind of like, oh, this is our fix. And he really like can't put all of that on him.

As a player, as a person, And personality, this is like completely his fault. He didn't want to leave the league. Like he was so obsessed with his pride and with his legacy that now he is probably going to leave the league as a punchline. The corner that I'm speaking out for myself in this argument is that I get why from a basketball perspective, we have to, you know, kind of rag on him for not adjusting, not aging well and not like being willing to take on a lesser role. the human side of me is like, this guy had to have this sort of confidence, this sort of ego to even get to where he was in the league. And that's not just to him to many superstarts, but with him specifically, it seems like, kind of like you said, it continued on in New York and just built on that foundation that he already had of being like a player that was elite, you know, an elite score. And I think when you have that, it's very hard to completely change from that from like a human perspective.

And at the same time, you know, I think that the opinion of him is not like, I don't, I don't think it will matter in 10 years. Unless you're like 21 and under, like this is not what you're going to remember from Mello. Right. I just don't think that we're going to think about in five to 10 years. We're not going to think about how it ended. We're just going to see that Mello had a bunch of points and got a lot of money and just had a MBA career without a ring. And that's it. He's probably a hall of famer.

Yeah. He definitely is. He definitely defined an era in the NBA. Like, he, Dwayne Wade, LeBron, all those guys. That was like they were some of the most important players for over a decade. I don't think we're actually even arguing so much as like pointing out like why specifically he isn't working. And I think to Haley's point, like, Houston wasn't the proper context for him to really like show whether or not he could transition into a lesser role. I do think like they had all those injuries and all of a sudden he was playing way too many minutes and then his defense got exposed.

I do think that perhaps he deserves a second chance but I also think that one of the big things from quants and like stats-based guys like John Holler back in the day was always that we give too much credence to reputation and guys who had done it in the past and give them too many chances when in actuality we probably should be giving more chances to guys without those names like guys like Daniel House

and I think it's really interesting that a team like Houston made that decision. The big question going forward, I think is... Yeah, but Houston's the same team that signed Chris Paul until he's like 50. Yeah, no, I think you still need

stars. But like the guys that fill out the roster, like giving the James Nunnley's like the chances. Like looking to people who are established who you think can pull it off. Obviously that's like on a far more

realistic level. But at the same time, like they are going to be paying for him and well into his 30s. Sure. The contract itself is bad. Chris Paul's production when healthy is still very good. I think that would be the distinction.

This is a Joe Harris League. now it's not a Melon. That's what it is. I love my bearded brethren. Do we see any team that you guys would want to take a chance on him? God, I hope that doesn't go to the Lakers. No, well, that seems like the most likely outcome here, but which would be great for content. Having him to save a team.

I would really like to see him in San Antonio. Yeah, that's a good one. Because they are a team that has a really good system, obviously Popovich. I don't know if Pop could survive having to Coach Mello. But I do think that the way they've catered their system to their starters as in Damar and Lamarcos in the mid-range, and then their bench as more of the three-point-oriented guys, I think, could make Melo valuable in some way in just a way they utilize the mid-range. I do think it's interesting that San Antonio is the litmus test. I was just going to say that.

Basically, if you could survive in San Antonio, you're okay in our books. Like, send McGins there. I want to see what they're going to do. Send Dennis Smith, Jr. you're there, all the outcasts. I think he would be interesting in a couple places. I think Portland is one team that, like, talked about maybe adding him before he went to the Thunder.

I think that's the type of move Portland can make and say that we tried to shake something up without actually trading CJ McCollum, which we wouldn't want to happen because then CJ will just sub-tweet the ringer again. I think that would be interesting. I think, and then Golden State Warriors. I think just add them, throw them in there. Wow. What?

I think it's just like, we have five all-stars. Why not have six guys with giant reputations? I hear about the fucking all-stars again. Yeah. That's the theme of this episode, Haley. Can we put that as the show title, these fucking all-stars? Man, that would be fun. I mean, that would be fun from like attention.

No, that would not be fun at all. But think about it. They have nothing to lose, right? And it would be the most. Whose minutes is he taking? I mean, just put him on the bench and just have them hang out with like... Actually, I do want him to go to Golden State so we can finally get that ring. Got to put a ring on it.

All right, that's it for this episode of group chat. Enjoy the all-star voting. And we will talk to you next week. Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.