The Ringer NBA Show - Which Late-Season Trends Are for Real? Plus Ja Morant’s Ascent | Group Chat

Episode Date: March 9, 2022

Justin and Wos are joined by Sports Illustrated’s Michael Pina to discuss Kyrie’s latest comments on facing James Harden (02:00). They also discuss which late-season trends are real, including the Warriors’ slump, the Celtics’ and Pelicans’ recent success, and more (09:00). Later, listen as Pina dives into his recent Sports Illustrated profile on Ja Morant (42:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Wosny Lambre Guest: Michael Pina Associate Producer: Jonathan Kermah Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Are you ever curious what's going on behind the scenes in Hollywood? You watch a Netflix show or a Marvel movie and you wonder, why was that person in it? Why did this movie get made? I'm Matt Bellany, founding partner of Puck News, and I'm covering the inside conversation about money and power in Hollywood. With my new show, The Town, on the Ringer podcast network, I'm going to take you inside Hollywood with exclusive insight

on what people in show business are actually talking about. Multiple times a week, we're going to bring you short, Digestable episodes featuring some of the smartest people I know breaking down the hottest topics in entertainment to tell you what's really going on. Follow the town now and listen on Spotify. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier joining me.

He's back. It's Big Wise. What's up, my friend? Ah, man, I'm good, man. I'm good. Very, very, very happy to be back. You know, on February 20th, I suddenly lost my mom.

rest in peace to Rose Therese LaCont. She was 73 years old. Obviously, like most moms and sons, we were extremely close. My best friend, somebody who lifted me up every single day of my life,

so I will obviously dearly miss her. We were able to, you know, have a dope going away service for her. A lot of people came out and showed love and support. Obviously, my family has been lifting me up in this time of need.

You know, the time off was needed, but I'm obviously happy to be back with you guys, miss doing this every single day. Obviously, I wish Rob was here for my triumphant return, but I think we got a pretty decent replacement for Rob in the short term. So, you know, all things considered, man, I'm in good spirits, my family's in good spirits. Appreciate everybody who reached out with well wishes, means a lot. And just thank you guys. Yeah, no, we're glad to have you back, man. And obviously, we've been thinking about you since. So it's good to have you there.

But in Rob's plays today, we'll have him back next week. But we have a fellow distinguished long-form writer from Sports Illustrated. It's Michael Pina. What's up, man? What up, guys? Deepest consolances to you was. Thank you, man. I did not know that.

And my prayers go out to you and my thoughts are with you. But thanks for having me on the show. I'm filling Rob's shoes as impossible, but I'm going to try my best. He's a large guy. Yeah. it's a lot to score. I was speaking literally, yes. Yeah, right.

So we got a lot on the agenda today. I want to talk specifically to Mike about his John Morant profile that he just dropped on Sports Illustrated. I want to get into some of these late season trends that are happening because there are some teams that are zinging and zagging more profoundly than perhaps a lot of teams do at this time of the year. But first, I do want to talk about some comments last night from Kyrie Irving. It's like you never left.

We're back talking about. what Kyrie Irving said recently. But specifically about the matchup on Thursday between James Hardin and the Philadelphia 76ers and the Brooklyn Nets, the Nets were asked about it last night after they finally won. It took a big game from Kyrie Irving to get there over the Charlotte Hornets, but they did it.

And in particular, Kyrie and Durant to some extent, were kind of nonchalant about the whole thing. I think I was just surprised by how just like, passive, Kyrie and KD are about this entire thing. To a certain extent, Kyrie at some point

just rejects the idea that this is a big deal or that like anyone should really care about teams going up against each other or having any extra motivation. I guess I should just read

the specific quote and why is it I want to get your take on this. This is Kyrie speaking. We're still in the same week. It's not like we're going to see him somewhere different where we're not going to see him

again and we're not going to see him in the summertime. It's great for the least. league to build up things like this, but we have a group in our locker room that we just want to be mature about going into Philly and handling business and then moving on. Was, your thoughts? You know, to be honest, this is actually a step in the right direction for Kyrie in the sense that this message is, there's clarity to it.

It's like, he's not here. The people who are, we want us to be focused and mature about how all of that transpired. And that's how we're going to go. That's how we're going to approach the game, which I think is like, a pretty smart thing for him to be saying publicly. One, because I just think that's a good message to have out there for your guys on your team. And two, like, here's the thing, Justin, because, like, you're an earnest guy. Mike, you're an earnest guy, but I'm not.

So I understand what Kyrie's doing here. You don't want to go into the game and say, no, I've circled this in the calendar. I'm really looking forward to this. And I want to kick this guy's ass. You don't want to go into the game saying that. And then you go three for 15. and everybody's looking at you like, you didn't deliver. You want to pretend that nothing is afoot, whatever.

This is just another Tuesday NBA game and the dog days of the season. And then when you come out and drop 37, after the game, you get to be like, yeah, you know, I was just saying that. I circled this game. Obviously, I took it really serious and I wanted to kill James Harding. So I think that's what's happening here. You don't want to go in on the front end talking all this rah-rah, and then it doesn't happen. you feel me so i i understand what kairi's doing here see i read it more as we're not going to perform

for you guys and like i get that to an extent like that's your prerogative if if you don't want to indulge in like all the stuff that goes around the game that you're not actively participating and kairi has shown pretty recently that he doesn't want to participate in anything beyond just like playing when he wants to play right but i think to a certain extent to basically reject the idea that like players moving and going to other teams actually matters, I think is a tricky thing to be selling to fans because you're basically suggesting

like, it doesn't matter. And like, wherever we play, it doesn't matter, we're going to get along, it's going to be fine. And I think if you go too far in that direction, like, does it even do we have to care about the teams? Or are we only going to care about the individual stars? Like, like, does this matchup even matter if they don't care about

that matchup? Is this too much, Mike? Am I worried for no reason here? No, I mean, you know, know, this is kind of antithetical to the point of a podcast discussion about the NBA, but I would just love to abstain from all Kyrie conversation when it comes to things that he says in post-game media scrums and pre-game scrums or whenever he chooses to speak publicly, Instagram Live, especially. I have no idea the messages that he's trying to communicate most of the time and I find that it is a waste of energy to try to decipher and read and understand.

So I mean no disrespect, Justin, with you bringing this up at the top of the show is something to talk about. But I can't wrap my mind around anything that he says. And I don't get too deep into it, I would say. I will say this, though. And that's why I'm just like, I'm of two minds with this. I think if you watch that game, when they play, Kyrie's going to play really hard.

I've been as critical of Kyrie as anybody in the media over the years, and it's been like seven years of criticism for me. But, like, he is a competitive dude. Like, if you watch historically, like, games where he's playing against, say, Steph Curry, like, you can tell he's got a little bit more juice in those games. So I personally wouldn't be surprised if Kyrie says all of this nonchalant stuff on the front end and then come out against Philly and, you know, be like a man that's on fire. Like traditionally, Kyrie has gotten up for these type of matchups, these individual matchups where he's like, you know what, this dude, you know, dropping all kinds of negative breadcrumbs about me and my process in the media and pretending he's above me and what I do.

Like I'm some type of scrub player. I'm going to come out and show people that I get busy and I wouldn't be surprised if Kyrie actually worked his ass off and played really hard I'm going to try to make a point this game. Yeah, I just, man, I get it. Like, he doesn't want to participate in the theater of it all. But like the theater matters.

It's like, that's what we're all here for. But I think Mike's right. Maybe this isn't good for our health. I just have to touch the stove, you know? It's just right there. It's so hot. All right, let's flip to some of these other teams on the docket here.

I want to start in Golden State, who actually won last night in pretty impressive fashion after losing five in a row and nine of their past 11. It was looking pretty grim there for a little bit. And it might still, depending on how you feel about them without Draymond, whether Draymond is going to come back early next week, as has been indicated and just maybe like Clay. I don't know, there's a lot going on here, Mike. So I guess my question to you is, are you concerned or how concerned are you about the? the Warriors going into the stretch run of the season? I feel like I'm in the minority here. I'm not concerned really at all about the Warriors.

The way I see it, and this is a very popular opinion, but it's like if Draymond Green is healthy, then they can win the championship. I think they're built to do so. If Draymond Green is not healthy, then they can't win the championship. And it's just, it's pretty, it's very simple to me.

So I want to wait and see for, I think like we, sometimes get, we're sometimes prisoners of the moment a little bit in the regular season, it's such a slog. And he hasn't played since January 5th. They still have a top 10 defense since then without him. When Steph Curry is on the floor since Draymond's been out, they have a top, what are the top two, top three offense. So I'm like, I'm just not getting too worked up about it. I still think that, I mean, I know that they still have the second best net rating in the entire league for the season. They're a championship contender, assuming that Draymond's health

So this recent slide here doesn't really matter too much to me personally. I'm of the same mind and their most important guys are veteran guys. It's not like a Grizzlies team, right? We're like every night is a chance to prove something to people, right? Like that's not the case with Golden Steel, like at all. Like it's like Steph Curry's one of VPs. He's one of VA championships. Like he's proven that he's an all time great.

Like every night is not an opportunity to prove himself to his peers in the league. and, you know, consumers of the NBA at large. So I think that their approach to these games in March and February are just going to be different from other teams. But I do want to touch on something because, you know, a couple of things happened while I was going on. I happened to check my Twitter. And apparently the Sixers have already won the championship. You know, Maxie is already a Hall of Famer. And, you know, people are getting at me for things I said on the beach.

Vs pod, which I find amusing. I love it. This type of spicy talk in March. But again, you know, Sixth's fans, you're entitled to that. But I digress. I say that to say, like, I did a pod with Bill and Joe House where we had fun talking about some of the worst contracts in the league. And I mentioned Clay Thompson has a bad deal, right?

He didn't play for the first two years of him. And now that he's back, like, he's not a $40 million player. He's just not. There's no two ways to square that, right? However, I think Golden State doesn't need him to be a $40 million caliber player to be championship worthy in their endeavors, right? I just think the greatness of Steph Curry and their sort of auxiliary parts are so good, you know, of such a high quality that I think they're going to be a really good team.

So long as, like Mike said, Dremont comes back. But yeah, the Clay thing is something to monitor because, you know, like he's come back from two gruesome injuries and it's taking a while for him to look like the guy who was just a freaking supernova in the NBA finals before he went down, right? So, you know, I think it's something worth monitoring, but I'm not too worried about the Golden State Wars.

And then, of course, like, unlike a lot of these teams, Golden State has done it in the biggest moment. Like, they have that confidence. They have that muscle memory when it comes to, you know, crunch time, possessions, in big moments. Like, I trust Golden State more than probably any other team in the league right now. Yeah, I think the Clay question is probably the most interesting one. Because Draymond, I think we'll all agree when he's back and if he's healthy,

they'll be doing things on a much higher level than they are doing them right now. And, like, the Draymont question is kind of unknowable because it really comes down to like what is his health? And the actual injury slash injuries that he's had is just like so mysterious. It's really hard to really understand like what is happening or what he's going to come back with because it's like a calf but also a back, but also maybe a nerve thing. And so like, I don't know. But the Clay thing is, I think a bit of a concern because even if Draymond is back and healthy, I think they still have to worry about Clay. And I think Mike, that's kind of the big question there. Like if they are all back and we get all these guys, is Clay going to be enough?

of what they need in order to really round out not just like a very good team who can make the second third round in the playoffs, but a team that could actually win the title. I'm not as worried about Clay either. I mean, I don't think they need him to be the guy who hit 19, 3s and 16 seconds

in 2016 to win the championship. Like, they have a really capable set of role players, veterans, as was saying, like they know how to execute in the fourth quarter, quarter. I'm not going to be worried about them. They also haven't had Andre Guadala. I know I'm not saying that they need to depend on Andre Guadala, but having him back healthy in the playoffs will be a big upgrade over what they've had over the past couple

games. Like, Clay's shot is fine. Guys are still going to be attached to him when he comes off a pin down. I don't think they need him to guard Devin Booker in a series. They used to, but they don't anymore. They have Andrew Wiggins. They have other Gary Pate in the second. Sometimes they have Andrew Wiggins. All-star starter. I mean, come on. What an incredible deal that guy has.

Just making however many millions be an all-star starter and putting up like 10 points a game. Legendary career. It is. But no, in all seriousness, like, GP the second is one of the best defenders in basketball who can guard like anybody. And I think he'll actually have a pretty significant role in the postseason during stretches and certain matchups.

I'm just not worried about clay. I think he'll be fine. This is just, I mean, the guy was off for two years. Like, we should expect it to be a slow ramp up for him. And what they need out of, it's like, in the first few weeks of the season when they were on this ridiculous tear, it was like, oh, my God, look at this team. Now imagine when they get clay. It's like, okay, well, one Draymond comes back and everything kind of falls into place, we'll have that clay attached to everything else. plus Cominga, a more confident

comminga. Moses Moody's played has had to have flashes of ridiculousness. So I'm not worried about Clay or the Warriors right now. Yeah, I mean, Jordan Poole has also kind of like emerged from the Yes, another game. Well, that's actually a question though because they almost have too many guys.

Like James Wiseman ostensibly exists, right? No, he doesn't. The recent reporting is that he might play in two G League games. And like, so that's just a lot of bodies, a lot of names to really account for here. And like, I guess the good thing is like maybe Dremont not being there has allowed guys like Kaminga, guys like Moody to emerge and like play minutes they wouldn't typically. But like, I do think they're going to have a roster crunch here going to the playoffs. I mean, why, do you think that's going to be an issue or is it more like you just you sit the kids, you play the vats?

No, because I trust Steve Kerr, right? Like there's another team with quote unquote too many guys, which was Atlanta Hawks. and let's face it, Nate McMillan just poorly managing rotations and lineups and like... Sorry, man, I know that one hurts. It's terrible. Bench mob units.

Like, Steve Kerr's not going to deploy bench mob units in the playoffs because he has so many guys, right? And I say so many with quotations. I just think Steve Kerr that has earned our trust and our respect as far as managing the pieces in the series. And I think it's too...

When you have an effective... coach, right? Like a Kerr, like a Spoh, like a Nick Nurse, who understands like, all right, I use different pieces when it's matchup dependent, and you trust their judgment in those moments to push the right buttons. I think it's fine. Under the wrong tutelage, not to beat up on Nate McMillan, but I mean, Nate McMillan, under the wrong tutelage, you might be a little bit more worried about that. But with Steve Kerr, I'm not, not at all. Yeah, Steve Kerr can't run a goddamn pick and roll, but he could do the high-level math in order to get all these guys involved in playing the best basketball. I mean, I bring

a pool specifically because pool has been great lately. And I mean, they've managed it great thus far. But I do think there's something good happening between Steph Clay and pool. Cur alluded to this last night about how there's a lot of positive indicators there. And I do think you're starting to see the shape of potentially the next death lineup with those three and potentially a healthy Drey Mon. I think that's where I'm starting to get a little bit more concerned about Clay because offensively, Mike, I think you're right. Like, even if he's not shooting as well as he has in the past, like the gravity is going to be there.

Guys are going to hug to him and that's going to open things up for everybody else. I wonder if they need him more defensively. And if it's, I don't know who's going to be the fifth. That's actually someone we should talk about there. But like, if it is those four and somebody else, you kind of need Clay to be a stopper there. Pool is fascinating because

to me, his greatest value is being the guy who you can stagger with Steph and then kind of support your offense a little bit, ideally, when Steph needs to rest, because he has that punch, and he can be a fireworks display by himself. Together with, as you said, like, because of Clay's defensive issues, it's like Clay, Steph, pool, and you got Draymond putting out a lot of fires. Right.

And as you said, like, who is that fifth guy? You need some side. you're going to have to be able to rebound. So who is that fifth guy? So I don't know if Kerr's going to close. It's hard to see him closing playoff games with those three on the court together. But throughout the game, it'll be interesting to see how he kind of staggers everything and mixes and matches

and how those guys kind of coalesce together. I would hope in my fanboy persona would want it to be coming. just because of like what he's able to do. Like I don't know if he'll be able to read the coverages correctly or what, but like just what he's been able to do by being a boulder, like going toward the rim has been fascinating. And DeWaz's point about like Kerr being able to deploy guys a little bit better than some other ones,

like them instantly sticking him as like a small ball five and instantly taking advantage of what he's able to do right now has been incredible. Which by the way, that's not the mark of Steve Kerr in the past, right? When he was committed to Andy Vee and, you know, Festus Azili and those type of guys. Like, he's evolved in that way where he was just like, look, I only want to use

a Dremont 5 at the 5 for like 12 minutes a game. I'm not sure. I want big people on the floor all the time. So this is an evolution for Steve Kerr, which is encouraging to see. And it's nice to see a young guy like Kaminga get to play. Because sometimes, you know, lottery picks, high lottery picks. They don't really walk into situations like Golden State. where there's a bunch of smart veteran players

and you have to actually be competent to get minutes, to earn minutes on the floor, you kind of get these entitlement minutes, right? And sometimes it's like a double-edged sword. You need these guys soaking up these minutes to learn what it is to be an effective NBA place. But at the same time, do you want to be rewarding these awful habits

that rookies tend to develop, right? So for comminga to have to come in and play with within an offense and a defense that take, smarts and know-how. It's really encouraging to cease. Kerr, let him spread his wings and him actually taking to it, which is exciting.

You know, and that's not typically the case for top five type of picks that usually get sent to dumpster fires. Speaking of spreading their wings, let's talk about the New Orleans Pelicans, who were on fire. No, no, no, no. At five and six.

No, did very, you just do that? I didn't want to pivot off of dumpster fire. I feel like I've been a little bit too cynical about the Pelicans these days. So five and six following the CJ McCollum deal. They've lost the past, too. But even within those two, there's some rationale for that. They took Denver to overtime in Denver. And then we're without Brandon Ingram, one of their two fire hoses these days last night

when they got beat down by Memphis in Memphis. But Mike, you wrote about this pretty recently. are you enjoying the fireworks display going on in New Orleans? You think that this is legit? And I say that meaning, like, do you think this is the type of team that could, A, hold down the number 10 spot, get into that play end that they covet so dearly,

and then also maybe, like, give a team, like, a firm push in those playing games? Hold down the 10 spot is, is that what they're going to put on the banner when they raise it after the season's over? Yes, right next to the smoothies up there, the best selling smoothies, yeah. I just have fun watching this team play. I mean, since CJ came aboard, it's been a lot of fun,

since Willie put Jackson Hayes in at the fore next to Jonas Valenchunis, and just like that's a huge lineup. I mean, Herb Jones, Brandon Ingram, CJ, Jackson, JV, it's humongous. There's no point guard. I love that fivesome. Jackson is really intriguing to me. He has better hands than I thought. Like, he finishes everything around the basket.

And, I mean, can they push somewhat? Like, you know, I would take them probably. I'm not even allowed. I'll take them over the Lakers in a play-in game. Sure, why not? Especially if they get the nine seed and it's in New Orleans. You can't go into New Orleans and expect them just roll over. You know this well.

You know this well. That's a hot house. It's tough to win basketball games there. But, you know, if they're going to play the Sons in a first round series, even with Willie Green just knowing all the secrets, I don't think that they can push Phoenix too far now. Yeah. You know, what I'm most impressed by, obviously, it's nice that they're scoring, but they're actually guarding people somehow, you know, in these CJ heavy minutes that they could get. to an above average defense. Like, that's really, really, really encouraging, especially for this group where you don't think of them as having a bunch of just like, you know, it's not like when you think of Phoenix, you're like, wow, defensive talent everywhere.

Makes sense that they're guarding people really well. That's not the case in New Orleans. Their defensive talent is like, okay. Like Brandon Ingram has always been somebody who, people like me and my wet dreams, I'm like, oh, this guy's going to be, He's going to guard one through five. He's going to be just an incredible disruptor.

And that's never been the case, even with his sort of natural given tools when it comes to length and foot speed and things of that nature. I'm encouraged by the fact that they're guarding people at an above average clip right now. And that's something that they can hang their hat on. And that, to me, is more of an indication of, like, a group that's like, we have something to play for. We're not giving up on the season. and we're giving effort on that end,

which is a big deal, and it's nice if you're a New Orleans fans to see that. Yeah, and Mike, you wrote about this. When CJ first got traded there, they tried out Devante Graham for like a couple games in that starting lineup, and then immediately pivoted back to Jackson Hayes.

And I don't know about it long term, but it's certainly working. And it seems to be this like a little bit of a mini trend going around the league that they're kind of jumping on here, where you're seeing a lot, and maybe it's like the calves effect. Maybe it's the rollover from the Brooke Lopez, Janice front line from a couple years ago.

That was so devastating defensively. But like it seems like teams have caught on to like, oh, if you put the two rim protectors there at the very least, you could stop some baskets at the hoop. And then maybe like that's enough to like solve things in the immediate. I'm curious what you think about that trend though, particularly as we're going into the playoffs, like you think like teams like the calves,

teams like the pelicans are going to be able to defend like well enough? when teams like the fault maybe more to skill and size down a little bit more? I don't. So far, Jackson and JV when they're together, it's just, it's tough defensively. And you watch who Jackson's guarding, and they have him switch every ball screen. They don't switch with JV, but then teams just put Jackson as the ball hand, guarding the ball handler in a pick and roll. And he has no idea what he's doing. JV is dropping and it's just it's a total

mess. So there's time to clean some of that stuff up and Jackson's super athletic. I think the advantage more comes on just the offensive glass and physically punishing the opponent when shots go up and not really worrying too much about

spacing on offense because you have CJ, you have Ingram, guys who can create their own looks for themselves from the mid range, pull-ups. They're very comfortable taking contested shots, making difficult shots. So that's where I like the advantage for them specifically. Defensively, it's going to be a work in progress.

And to speak to, it has, like, a greater trend. It's like if you have a transcendent player like Evan Mobley, then go for it, man. Play that three-two zone, you know, pretend he's Kevin Garnett 15 years ago and have some fun. But if you don't, then it's going to be really tricky to get stops, I think, of the playoffs. Yeah, I think, you know, you mentioned the Bucks who were for like three years, easily one of the best regular season defenses in the league. And then when it came the nut crunch of time last season and the postseason, they were like, yeah, Brooke Lopez, you're not the five anymore.

We're throwing Yannis at the five. And we're switching them on the point guards at the point of attack. Because look, in the regular season, most teams don't have a Trey Young, don't have a Dame Lillard, don't have a Steph Curry. People who can punish your drop coverages, people who can punish your blitz coverages, people who can punish your meet me at the point of attack coverage. Like, whatever pick and roll coverage you deploy, they can just punish and, you know, attack with impunity. Most teams don't have that. So if you put your two bigs in there and you play a conventional pick and roll defense where you're just like, look, we can guard the ball with two guys every single time and it's going to be completely fine.

Like, that's cool. But in the playoffs, the best teams punish that all the freaking time. Like, your foreman has to be very diverse in the levels, in the kinds of defenses he can play, meaning like he needs to be able to switch. He needs to be able to be amazing at closeouts. He needs to even be able to hold up against a post-up every now and again. Like, you need, like, he has to be able to do all of that stuff.

And in the regular season, it's not so important. when, you know, your opposition is Alec Burks at point guard. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's fine in the regular season. Yeah, I mean, I think in the immediate, like, what the Pelicans have right now is they're kind of the Blazers, you know, like they have the two Wonder Twins who could score 30, 40 a game and then you have enough around them where it's like, yeah, this works. They're like one of the, like, every one in eight years where the Blazers had a credible enough

defense to support those two guys. and I think there are questions to ask about that long term and whether or not like that becomes old pretty quickly. It definitely did in Portland and it definitely does like for the mid-a-a-a-hawks. Like that becomes a problem eventually. But for now, this is really fun. The one thing that changes that entire equation was is obviously our big boy there down in New Orleans is potentially could play basketball. What do you think about like reintroducing Zion back into what seems to be a pretty, decent team right now.

Look, we talked about the defense being competent. Don't count on that happening. When Zion is back and he's getting heavy minutes, do not, do not, do not, because it's just that he just has not shown

anything on defense since he's been in the NBA. And if he's, and you know, and you have to play him, right? And maybe you say, look, his offense has been so elite when he's been right. that the offense becomes such a beast that it's not going to have such an adverse impact on winning.

I find that hard to believe. But, yeah, if you basically have been able to stitch together competence on that end, and now you introduce a guy next to C.J. McCollum, who has no interest in doing anything on defense, you know, I start to think that becomes difficult for your team and what you're trying to do and a pathway to, you know, stringing together quality possessions on defense night after night. Mike, what do you think about Zion, CJ, Ingram, both like maybe for the end of this season, if Zion miraculously comes back and just like long term. Yeah, I mean, I hear what I was saying for sure.

Like, defense is not going to be your identity. That's not your backbone. if you have Ingram, C.J. and Zion, each averaging 34, 35 minutes a night. But I'm a huge Zion person. His second season was just historic. And he's my favorite player to watch. Him not being a part of this season has been a humongous bummer. I think if you throw him into the mix with what they have now with more spacing than they had last year, it's just going to be scary.

I just don't know how you stop that team. I really, I really don't. I just said earlier, like, they don't really have a point guard in that lineup. If they revert back to point Zion with CJ off ball, Ingram off ball. It's just, offensively, it's just, it's like, you can't, what are you going to do? How you stop that is ridiculous. So I'm not saying they're going to win a championship anytime soon or even a playoff series, but that you can't stop. It's going to be fun to watch for sure, yeah.

that's what I'm here for. Yeah. All right. Let's flip now to a team that potentially has a chance to win a championship. Mike, in your earlier days, you were in a Boston apologist, maybe still are to a certain extent. What? How are you feeling? I'm seeing the early, early days.

Those blog dog days, dog. How are you feeling about not your Boston Celtics, the Boston Celtics? Do you think clearly they're good? and obviously defensively, they're pretty devastating. Do you think they are win the East good? Like, how are they, where are they in your East hierarchy is probably the best way to ask this? Yeah, I mean, the East obviously is a ton of really good teams. I think I'm higher on the Celtics than most.

I wouldn't call it an apologist. But I would say like sometimes we, there's all these numbers that are thrown in front of us. And for some reason, we ignore them as a basketball analyzing collective. And it's just like this team has had like the highest net rating by far in 2022. They have the best defense by far this season. And in recent months, they have the fewest question marks. Like I don't know when you look at the roster, particularly since they added Derek White, like look at their eight-man rotation. and just what are the weaknesses.

Jason Tatum is, in my opinion, a top 10 player easily. I saw your top 25 today, by the way. And Jimmy Butler over Tatum, now I need to put on my, like, my Celtics hoodie right now. I think those votes were before the game against the Nets for whatever it's worth. Okay, that's fair. It isn't, but that's okay. No, but Jason Tatum, top 10 player.

incredible offensive talent who defended KD in that game. Everybody's two-way. And so when you compare the Celtics of this season to teams of the past, they had Kyrie, they had Isaiah Thomas, they had Campbell Walker, they had guys you had to play in Crunchtime, who were clear weak points on the defensive end. And they don't really have that anymore.

So I think in a playoff series, they can be who they are in the regular season where they switch basically everything with Rob Williams in the backline just destroying every floater, every layup, and still have a great defense. And then offensively, Jalen Brown can create his own shot. Jason Tatum can create his own shot. Derek White has been a terrific fit in terms of just an on-court connector who's constantly moving, constantly getting off the ball. So if you were going to point at one thing, I think it would be like maybe they

don't have enough three-point shooting. That really doesn't concern me that much with the way they've move the ball and the independent shot creation that they have. So, yeah, to answer your initial question, like, I'd put them up there with anybody in the East right now. Yeah, man, I've come around on this team. And, you know, they weirdly, who they remind me of is the Raptors team from the bubble, especially on defense. Obviously, they have a way higher ceiling offensively.

But, like, on defense where it's like, there's no weakness. We can stop people at the cup. We can be a switchable team. We have guys who can straight up, if you want to do your little isolation games, we have really plus, plus, plus isolation defenders with size and length. I just think defensively they can ground teams,

you know, to a halt defensively, which is really, really exciting to me as far as a playoff proposition. Of course, you know, I still worry about what they do in the half court offensively. They, like, they still, like, Derek White is, he's an improvement in the playmaking and just straight up, ball moving department. Like, some sticky-ass dudes on this team historically with the ball. But Derek White is such a freaking improvement upon that. But you wonder if that's going to be enough in the half court, right?

Like, is it going to be enough? Is it going to revert to what we've seen historically, which is just Jason Tatum, dribble, dribble, dribble, step back, 22-foot two-pointers, right? And that's not to denigrate this dude, but that's what's happened to every single playoffs. And maybe this playoffs will be different, and I would love to see that. But obviously, I still worry about what they do because they're going to be forced to play in the half court in the playoffs. and I wonder, you know, if there's going to be enough magic with the ball for them to succeed. But their defense gets me excited because when teams can't just pick on your one blaring weakness in a series over and over again,

that makes you a really dangerous team and a tough out. Yeah, the defense is legit. And, like, they've been the best defense in the league long before Derek White was there. I think, like, going back to, like, the start of the year, calendar year, they're the best defense in the league. A little concerned, I guess, in the playoffs because they are another team that's relying on this two big lineup, allowing Rob Williams

to kind of freelance and be the devastating shot blocker. And like, if the other guy is Al Horford, it's like, oh, do we really want to rely on this 30-something guy who disappears for large stretches of the season at this point? It's great. It's fine. It's working. I get it. But yeah, I'm a little bit

worried that when it is nut crunching time, as Woz likes to say, like, is there enough shot making? on this team. And like, yeah, it works really well when Jason Tatum's going off for 50. But like, Mike, is he going to be that dude? Because like, I think we expect him to be that dude year around. And it's just like, oh, yeah, this is the year that Tatum is top five, top 10 sort of offensive talent. And it's like, oh, yeah, we got to trudge through another half season where like he's going in and out and like maybe the chemistry isn't great. And it's just like, I kind of need Tatum to be

that guy to believe in this team as a number one team in the east with a bullet sort of team. Yeah, I mean, I hear that criticism. He's been inefficient for most of the season. I should say, you know, the first half of the season probably from what we've seen so far. I think he's evolved as a playmaker in a lot of ways. I think his shot selection has improved. The mid-range attempts of basically they've dwindled in his best performances. And just month to month, the mid-range.

shot frequency. I tweet this like after every Celtics game because I'm a psychopath. But you see like the mid range frequency of his, it is in a shot chart. It's just it's dwindling. That's like a really encouraging sign. And I credit Emo Odoca 100% with that. Tatum gets off the ball so much faster than he used to. He's just making better decisions. I think like, you know, when we talk about the, we were just talking about like, the big lineups and the trends there with like your Clevelands and Milwaukee's and the Pelicans. And it's like the Celtics do play to two big. They do start two bigs.

That five-man unit is very successful on both ends. But like, don't sleep on like Grant Williams. Like, Grant Williams is just like straight up one of the better Swiss Army knife defenders in the entire league. And he's shooting like 43% from behind the three point line. I think he's like low key critical to some of the lineups unlocking some of the lineups that they're going to play in the playoffs. So, like, you could play smart white Tatum Jalen Grant Williams in a closing five. And I wouldn't be shocked if that has, that had a lot of success in a certain matchup.

So, again, I'm just high on the Celtics. I think they have the fewest questions. It doesn't necessarily mean they have the highest ceiling. But they're going to be a tough out in the postseason. Yes, breaking news, y'all. Michael Pina is high on the Celtics. Stop the presses. Shocking.

Yeah, I know. Like, I love Grant Williams, but like, I think that is where I'm a little concerned. Like, the fringe offensive production is just like, I'm not certain about it. And it's just like, yeah, it takes Grant Williams to shoot 40% from three for to unlock some of these lineups. And like, is he going to be able to do that in the playoffs? And like, they've been running like an eight-man lineup, a rotation or nine-man rotation for like probably 20 games. now or something. And it's just like if one of those guys gets hurt, it's, I think there's, there's less margin for error than probably some of these other teams. When you have like,

just hardened and Embed, you know, you just roll it out there and they're just going to overwhelm people with their talent. Like, I don't think the Celtics are that team thus far. And that's why I'm just like a little bit more concerned than like perhaps the data suggests. All fair. Just an all fair. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for coming in terms with this with me. All right. Let's talk about John Moran, a guy you know, pretty well at this point, Mike. You just wrote for Sports Illustrated behind John Moran's sudden ascent

to NBA superstardom. It's a great piece. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot about Jah here. What's probably the big thing that you learned about Job just from this entire process? Wow, what a question. I don't, like,

I guess like when I first set out to do the story, one of the first questions that I wanted to ask people was like, are you worried that this dude is just going to like break down? It's like the style of play he unleashes in every game. Like, is there a fear here?

And as I was reporting it, I started reporting it like, you know, towards the beginning of the regular season. And he has that play the day after Thanksgiving. And ironically, it was non-contact where he just goes down. I was watching that game live and I was sure that his ACL was quote.

Yeah. Me too, man. And I was I was sweating bullets. But then you you talk to everyone around him, be it people who work for the Grizzlies, his family members, his private trainers. And like no one is concerned that he'll be like Derek Rose or that he'll be like just any job. on wall. Anybody who has relied on speed and athleticism, who is a smaller guard and had a lot of success in the league. And then you like dig into the numbers. And it's just like we've never seen anyone like this before without hyperbole. And so projecting forward what he can be, I thought

was like a really fun just thought exercise that I had going through writing the story. And you even had like last night on on t n t shack saying that he told ja that he's like the best player in the league and it's just like oh is shack wrong is yes he is but that's pretty but it's like let me stop and think for a second and so like just the ceiling of what ja can be conceptually i think is really fascinating um and you know being at the ground floor of this this career that could be unprecedented. Really excited me as I was kind of writing and reporting the piece. You know what was the coolest thing for me listening, I mean, reading your piece was when you

watch the Grizzlies play, they seem like a group that's really connected, right? And then you read Mike's piece and he's explaining that like, no, John Morant makes his teammates feel a part of his superstardom. They don't feel a part away from it. They're part of it, right? They're connected to what he's doing and the specialness of what the early parts of his career has been. And to me, that's the number one key. You know, and again, not to always bring up the hawks to drink at home.

When you watch the hawks and you read everything that's coming out of there, as much as Tray Young has that great sort of mental makeup, like he's not afraid of any single moment. Like he has guts, he has feel, he has all of that. It don't feel like the Hawks feel a part of Trey Young's All-Star Ascent. His teammates do not feel like they are in it with him in the way that Jaws teammates do. And I think that makes all the freaking difference. When you look at the level of effort that they play with on a night-to-night basis, those guys feel like they're a part of something extremely special that happens. And it manifests itself in these dudes bust their ass every single.

single night. And they have a superstar and they know he's the superstar, but they don't feel like he is some sort of separate entity. No, he's a part of what the Memphis Grizzlies are doing. And I think when you connect Jaws, obvious, you know, his aptitude to just take on whatever comers, right, like that's important. And his emotional intelligence to be buying his teammates diamond necklaces for their birthdays and all of that and picking up tabs and doing all of that stuff. Like, that shit matters. Like, you can't tell me that's not connected to why this group feels, you know, they evoke a certain oneness in a way that a lot of other teams don't.

When people killed, you know, Zion Williamson for not calling CJ as soon as he got in there. And then you read Mike's piece and he's like, they hired some woman to be on the team. John was the first person to hit her up, right? And she's not as important as a C.J. McCollum is going to be for the Pelicans. Just reading that, I'm just like, man, this is what a model superstar. This is what you dream of when you get you punch your lottery ticket. You get the number two pick and you get to pick a guy like John Moran. It's really, it was really cool to read that stuff.

Thanks, Wise. I mean, I think like it's why he epitomizes the ideal franchise player. Like all the stuff you can't quantify, right? Like, you can look at three point percentage. You can look at his floater percentage. You can look at his points in the paint, which are historic. But it's just like the, he's basically like a messianic figure in Memphis. And he's beloved by teammates.

He's beloved by coaches. The way he holds himself accountable in film session. There's like so much stuff that obviously didn't make the story where it's like, people go on and on and on talking about Jha glowingly in terms of his loyalty to be at Zaire Williams. and Zaire Williams's progress, and when Zaire Williams misses a shot, a big shot that loses a game, it's like, Jock can't say enough things to pick him up. And then the next night, Zaire Williams, has the best game of his career in New York City. Like, all that stuff matters.

And it's completely unteachable. And so when you just fall ass backwards into the number two pick and you get this guy and you're able to just have him be the foundation of your culture and embody your spirit and your personality as an organization. It's incredibly rare and it's fortuitous as they build what could be something very special down in Memphis. Yeah. One of the things I was struck by too, like there's a lot of good details about like one of his arms being longer than the other one. And as was mentioned, him being like the greatest secret Santa guy of all time. But like Taylor Jenkins and some other guys basically calling him a savant in terms of like how he reads the game and all this stuff. And like,

it's something that struck me, I think, because we think about the athleticism and just like a bounciness and just like watching him is more of like a spectacle that like early era Derek Rose bounce. And so I'm curious like, were you surprised that those guys talking about him or is it like something that you have seen from his play that he's just being able to like read things on a level that at the very least I probably didn't realize. No, he's like one of the smartest players in the league. Draymond Green said He went on

I forget what podcast he was on About a month ago And he said when he plays Jha He was listening The smartest players he's ever played against He's like LeBron Rondo Chris Paul And then he's like

I'm not putting Jha in that company But when I play Jha Like I feel the chess match And it's like That's Draymond doesn't say things Just to say things Especially if they're not side by clutch

So So. So hashtag and clutch me trust. Exactly. Exactly. So Jaws intelligence on the floor, you know, I don't know if you guys have ever, Justin, I'm sure you have sat and watched a game in Memphis and they sit you on the court. And you're able to basically hear like conversations between players,

between players when they're standing about to check into a game or when they walk over during a free throw in the, Marina's kind of quiet and talking to their coach. Like, jaw is chirping, chirping, chirping, chirping, like, okay, on this next play, like, Stephen, like, you get in the dunker, like, we're going to, it's just like all these different adjustments constantly. And it's fascinating. To your question, Justin, I didn't know he was like that bright on that level. But when you see a play before it happens, like one of his most famous plays before he entered

the NBA, he dunked on some dude from UT. Martin at Murray State. And I was talking to his college roommate. And he was like, yeah, and the timeout before that play, Jaws, like, takes the whiteboard out. He's like, everybody, you go here, you go here. And I am, and just throw the ball up in front of the rim. And I'm going to dunk it.

And everyone's like, what is even happening? And then he just completely destroys this dude. And so he, yeah, he sees things before they happen. And that is truly the mark of a basketball savant. And to various point. about previous guys, like a D. Rose, like a Westbrook, right, who showed this extreme athleticism at the position. Let's face it, much as we love those guys and they were great players,

MVP's, multiple all-stars. In Westbrook's case, he's going to the Hall of Fame, all of this kind of stuff. They ain't never possessed that type of field, right? Westbrook, to his credit, made himself into a pretty good playmaker, you know, developed decent chemistry with guys like Steve. and Adams and pick and roll and stuff like that. And Dee Rose had decent feel for the game,

but he could definitely have some tunnel vision. And, you know, I could just remember on a bunch of picking pops with poor Zingas back in the days like this dude was just wide open and Derek Rose would just like do a thing. And I'm just like, what the hell is going on? Like, John Moran ain't that. Like, this guy has a very clear understanding about what defenses want to do against him and how he's going to attack, how he's going to attack, how he's going to. to adjust and playing the test match.

And, you know, another thing that I wanted to mention, Mike, because this is something I've been banging on for years and years and years. And it's summertime sizzle reel season, whether it's hoodie mellow. Oh, ho, oh, mellows in his bag in an empty gym again. I remember one time they sent out a sizzle reel of James Wiseman dribbling and it's between his legs. And I'm like, that man ain't never going dribble, no damn basketball. in Golden State or Ben Simmons,

a carefully curated video of him knocking down three jumpers in a row. I'm just like, yo, Sizzle real culture is so ridiculous. And the fact that Jai was like, I'm not participating in it. I'm actually going to make tangible gains in my game and we ain't participate in that ridiculous culture. Ooh, that was such a breath of fash here.

I'm like, thank you for that detail. No, it's funny. Like, anyone who's been following, who follows Jha on Twitter or Instagram. It's like it was constantly welcome to the dark, winning in the dark, blah, blah, like just that's his mantra, that's his ethos. And so it was only natural to kind of explore what that actually means

and talk to just like people around him to get the origin story of it. And I went down to Florida to where he trained for over a month in the offseason. and was with his head, strengthen, conditioning coach's private. This guy, Mo Wells, who works at this place called House of Athlete, right north of Miami. And it's like,

the gym is literally dark. Like, he's bringing me around to these rooms. And there's like, it's like, I was like he worked out here. Like, what is even, it's like, yeah, he would ask us to sometimes turn the lights even lower and blah.

And I was just like, what? Like, it's like so bizarre. rain shit yeah exactly but it was just like that I loved it it was so cool um everyone around him was down of course um and yeah like the the culture of putting things out and um part of it is also like he didn't want his game to be filmed and this is just like a michael jordan paranoia level stuff it's like he didn't want anyone to see that his like three point shot was improving and like he was getting better at whatever any take your list of anything that he was he was working on and improving on it's just like he didn't want anybody to pick up um anything on youtube or anything and it's funny that actually I called him out for being paranoid but then what comes to mind is like a quote that Marcus Smart had earlier this year where he was like I scour YouTube looking at guys in pickup games in the off season to see what they've been working on so maybe Joe was on to something um but it's like he

played one pickup game. They posted it on the internet and he was like, I'm not doing that again. I'm out. It's like that was hilarious to me and very abnormal and I agree with laws. It's like, it's refreshing. Well, I won't blow the rest of the piece. Everyone go and check it out on

SI behind John Moran Sunnacent to NBA superstardom. Mike, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you guys. This was a blast. Enjoyed it very much. Open Floor podcast, anything else? You want to plug? OpenFloor,

um, S.I.com at Michael V. Pina. Shout to my guy, Chris Herring, by the way. Salute on his New York Times bestseller, man. Next time I see him, dinner better be on Chris Herring next time. What? Hey, in that book money, boy.

Shout out to Brother Herring, of course. Yes, uh, legend in the flesh. All right. Well, thanks to Mike for joining us. Thank you to Big Was. back, my friend. Happy to be back. Super excited for the rest of the season. I just think so many exciting storylines coming up on us, and it's going to be dope. Thanks to Jonathan Kermon production, and also to Benjamin Cruz for looming in the dark, in the background,

just doing his work like John Morant. We'll be back next week, same time, same place. We'll see it.