The Ringer NBA Show - Which Return Method Do NBA Front Offices Prefer? Plus: Most Overrated/Underrated NBA Stats | The Mismatch

Episode Date: May 29, 2020

We discuss Kevin’s report that the NBA GMs voted overwhelmingly against the group stage format floated by the league earlier this week (1:56). Then, we open the mailbag back up to answer your questions about the best and worst statistics in the NBA, players whose legacies would be most improved with a title, and our favorite type of player to create in NBA2K (23:06). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up, guys, it's this Kelly, and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. Launching this week on our podcast network is a new show from Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay called Higher Learning. Two times a week, they'll be dissecting the biggest topics in black culture, politics, and sports, and wait into the most important and timely conversations. The first episode is out now, so make sure to subscribe to Higher Learning with Van Lathen and Rachel Lindsay on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Ringer MBA show. I'm Chris Varna, and join as he does every. Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

a.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Chammer, Kevin O'Candiland, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin. Burno, before we get in today's conversation, I just had to say, whatever we talk about today, pales in comparison to the importance of some of the things happening

in the United States right now, sparked by the murder of George Floyd earlier in the week. I don't know if the Ringer-N-B-H-H-O is the right place to talk about anything like this, but I just did want to say this. Listen to why black people are frustrated and infuriated. Be attentive to what's happening. Don't turn away. Don't pretend this isn't happening, even if it makes you uncomfortable. There are people who feel more strongly about how others are reacting to an injustice than they do about the injustice itself, but the enemy is not the person who feels discriminated against. It is those doing the discriminating. The person, the enemy is not the person

who feels held down as those who are holding him down. And I don't have the answers. I don't have a solution. But I know a heck of a lot needs to change. Very well said, Kevin. Hopefully we can give everyone, including ourselves, a brief respite, you know, in the end. For sure. We have never attempted to tell everybody that we're saving the world here with this podcast.

But what we hope we can do is entertain you at least for hopefully 45 minutes or so. because it has been as if we didn't have so much going on with the coronavirus and quarantine and everything else. These last couple of days of news have been just so intensely stressful. It's like every time you pull up your anytime you pull up social media, anytime you turn on the television, it's like, what is going on, man? Like, what is going on? And so hopefully we can talk about some things that matter much less, but we'll give you a little break from what is going on on your television screen or on your phone every single day. The NBA is going to have a Board of Governors meeting this afternoon.

This is going to be a very big meeting because I would imagine that there will be some kind of plans that are given out for teams to look over and decide what they want to do. With that being said, there's no vote that is coming today, but it feels like, you. You know, news kind of died down this week. We had at the end of the week, of last week, we had that the GMs were surveyed. And then there was that brief news about how families could be involved if players are going to go play at Disney World. But it got a little calm this week leading up to today, which makes you feel like they're putting everything together. You know, they figured out how they want to do it. They figured out where they want to do it.

They figure out how they're going to do the testing. and they've talked to all these people, and they will present something today. But before they do that, you had a story that broke last night about the results of said GM survey that we had heard about being sent out. So let's kind of go through that. So last night I reported on the ringer that the results of the GM survey were revealed to the GMs by Adam Silver. And they were asked a question simply, should we go straight to the postseason? Or should we go back to the regular season?

Half of the league's general managers said vote go straight to the playoffs. Half said go straight back to the regular season. And for reseeding the postseason, do you go one to 16 or do you keep it with conferences? Just over half the league voted to reseed. And with the big one, everybody's been talking about this week, we've really gone into it on Tuesday. That's the playoffs plus format. Teams were asked, should we do a group stage as we discussed on Tuesday? or should we do a play in tournament for the eight seed or the seventh and the eight seeds?

75% of team general managers voted for the playing tournament. 25% voted for the World Cup style group stage, which I'm disappointed about. It's not surprising. I've heard the Lakers and the bucks are some of those teams who are like, hell no, to the group stage. But I will say this, you know, it does seem like when things get quiet, that's when stuff is actually happening. my impression from conversations I had yesterday with various general managers and people around the league is that this is all still on the table. And ultimately, the most important conversation that's going to be had happens today between Adam Silver and the owners. And it happens between Adam Silver and Michelle Roberts,

executive director of the Players Association. Those are the conversations that matter. That's what's going to determine what actually happens moving forward with the timeline, with the schedule, with how much time players need to get ready and with what happens with the actual structure of games. Until then, this is all just information gathering for Adam Silver to best make these decisions that he makes up and down the line from games to testing. Yeah, because I thought it was fascinating. At one point in your article, you quote one executive saying, Adam's not taking these results very seriously.

He shouldn't, and I don't think he is. Oh, really? Okay. So, well, I mean, I guess my question is this. is your expectation that the owners will have, do you think that the general managers were speaking on their own behalf? I can only imagine that they know how their owner feels about something like this. But I do wonder, let's just, let's just take a, for instance, right?

Let's take Daryl Morey and just because I wanted to say his name incorrectly. And for Tita, right? It's like when Bill Simmons thinks of a team, like think of the Celtics, for example, as one team. When you think of a general manager, for example, you're always a little Daryl Morey. There you go. So the question is, do you think Daryl votes one way yesterday and Tillman Fertita would vote another way today? I just wonder how much different, if different at all, the general manager survey would come back from the owner's survey. It's a different conversation.

The way, my understanding is the way that survey was conducted was like an either or proposition. It wasn't like choose from A, B, C, D, E, F, G of all these options, order them from your favorite to your least favorite. It was, if there's a playoff plus, do you prefer a group stage or playing? If it's between regular season or playoffs, which one do you want to go straight to? It's one of the other. That's my impression of how the survey was conducted, A or B. And the conversation with owners, the conversation with Michelle Roberts is far more nuanced than that. It's not an either-or conversation.

So I'm not sure if it necessarily applies with what GMs say and prefer of two options to what owners and Adam Silver are actually going to discuss. You know what I mean? I think it's a totally different conversation. This survey was about gathering intel from how executives and front offices feel because there's other stuff on there. there's questions about how many scrimmages do teams and players think they need in order to get ready. Should we expand roster spots? And the answers to that were yes, expand rosters, of course, GMs are going to want that. And they want as many scrimmages as they can get because players, including Chris Paul,

the head of the NBPA, have asked for six weeks to get ready. And teams, of course, recognize that too. And over time, I think the league will once a schedule is determined. But it's different conversations between what Adams having, with a board of governors meeting today and what he actually had in a survey with the GMs. Well, and you know how much different it is when in the course of your article, you said one of the things that came up regarding if you did have a play in for a playoff, somebody asked what happens to lottery picks. That is absolutely a question that would take place on the GM conference call that probably isn't as likely to take place on the owner's conference call, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like those GMs are worried about that pick, you know what to me? Like, hey, what if we get into the playoffs? The owners ask about the RSN money. That's right. GMs are like, what about our draft picks? All right. So do you have any ideas as to what a play in would look like? You and I, and the reason I say this is because you report 75% were more in favor of some type of a way to play yourself into the playoffs.

You said 50% said just go straight to the playoffs. And so, but if we're just dealing with the, okay, it's not. The playoffs plus. Yeah. Playing or group stage, right? Meaning, meaning there's four extra teams or there's how many ever extra teams. I think most people think it's either going to be 16 teams or 20 teams that end up at Disney World. Okay.

What do you think is the most likely, let's say that that is what comes about, a play. where some teams are going to be able to play their way into the playoffs. How are they able to play their way into the playoffs? I don't know. I'm not going to pretend that I do because my conversations with GMs on the call yesterday, I asked them straight up, did they verify if they're talking about a play-in for the seventh and the eighth seed in each conference?

Are they talking about the eighth seed just in the West? Are they talking about no conferences and it's a plan for 15 and 16, which Mark Cuban proposed? and they're like, no, they didn't clarify that. I talked to three different general managers about that, multiple other executives who are aware of what the call was about, and nobody clarified with, nobody said that it was clarified on the call.

And for the NBA, I'm sure they have an idea of what they would prefer to do. With what they do, I'm not so sure. And it wasn't clarified on that call yesterday. So I don't know. I really don't know. And I was a little surprised that you said over half response. responded to reseeding without the conferences, right? I mean, I guess I thought there would be more people hanging on to tradition, right?

I think when you, when you look at it, though, it's like, I think Daryl Morey's comments the other day about it's a huge advantage for the Rockets, you know, to have a reseated conference. Other teams probably feel that way, too. I mean, think about it for the Lakers, right? The Lakers right now, they would be the two seed and they would have a match up against to Brooklyn Nets, they would also be moved from the opposite side of the bracket that the clippers are on. The clippers would go to the side of the bracket with the bucks if conferences were reseated one to 16. So if you're the Lakers, you're probably voting to reseed conferences

because you're getting an easier path. If you're the Houston Rockets, you're probably voting to reseed conferences because you get an easier path. And this is precisely why for the last week, ever since it was revealed this GM survey went out there, people have said, like, at is not going to take the results too seriously here. This is just about gathering information and getting as much in as he can before making an informed decision because teams are going to answer in the way

that is advantageous to themselves. It's just the truth. And so for Adam, my understanding, this is not anything anybody said to me, but my impression from these conversations with people around the league on teams and in the league office is that Adam Silver is really just

taking the temperature of teams, teams to see how much people have a desire for something new, to do something new in order to resolve this season. And the impression that I get is that there is an acceptance from teams for something new and there's a desire within the league to push something innovative. Whether that's playing tournament or whether that's group stage, I don't know. I don't know. That's a more complicated question that's going to happen between owners and Silver and with Michelle Roberts and silver. But it does seem like that silver, with this horrible situation that we all are part of, that the league is having to deal with, would like to use it as something to push for an

innovative change that he perceives and the league office perceives as something that will be for the greater long-term good of the game. And that to me is something to look forward to over the coming days, possibly. The Bucks owner just said, I believe it was this morning, that he would to expect the vote possibly early next week to occur. So that's something to keep in mind as well. So over the coming week or so, maybe we'll have more clarity in what silver in the league office have planned to do for the league moving forward

based off the decision this summer. Yeah, one thing I will say regarding the two conferences and being able to combine it that you were talking about and some teams saying, hey, it would be an advantage for us. One thing that I have recoiled on is, okay, we've talked a lot about the. bucks playing Orlando and whatever, right? One playing eight or the fact you brought up Brooklyn.

And those are the seven and eight seeds in the Eastern Conference. But one through six, the east is stronger, in my opinion. This is my opinion. One through six, I promise you, Kevin, in a playoff series, if we're talking, I got to beat them four out of seven games, I would much rather play Denver or Utah than I would Boston, Philly, Miami, any of those teams. Toronto. I mean, I just think that at the very top, the Lakers and the Clippers, yes. But when you go three through six or even three through eight, those bottom two in the east,

you know, Brooklyn and Orlando, they're not scaring you. But those top six, when you're talking about six being Philly, you know, there is absolutely, a chance that Joel Embed could be the best player, or Ben Simmons, for that matter, could be the best player on the court for an entire series. And so I don't know if I buy, I think for many, many years, the Western Conference was significantly better than the Eastern Conference. And while those two Los Angeles teams, I think are prohibitive favorites for the whole thing. And they're probably the two best teams and the teams I would bank on. Once you get past them, there's a lot of teams in the east that I would

rather not play than some of my Western conference opponents. And that's why with the conference receding question for the Lakers, let's say they voted for receding. And I don't know if they did, but let's just say they did. Logically, it would make sense because their side of the

bracket would be nets, jazz, rockets, raptors, grizzlies, nuggets, pacers, not the teams you mentioned. Celtics, Sixers, heat, not clippers, not even Dallas. for that matter. You know, not bucks.

So of course. I mean, they probably get the weaker of those teams in that second tier, third tier, contending teams that you're talking about on the right side of the bracket. And this is, again, we talked about a Tuesday, one of the reasons why I am firmly against conference receding now this season. Future seasons, I'm cool with it. I'm all about it. But to me, receding or playing tournament is a more dramatic change than group stage.

even though group stage on paper, you're removing the first round, and it feels like something that's bigger and more abrupt, I think it is a better representation of what happened in the season by taking the top 20 teams and by letting them all compete. By letting that all work itself out, Lakers and Bucks would still be heavy favorites. There are things you could do to balance the schedule to give them even more an advantage.

One executive recommended to me, you could have the Lakers or Bucks, a tier one team face the tier five team within their group three times. and therefore, like, they would face that weakest team three times within their group rather than twice each. You know, one of the things I thought about, two team only once, you know? One of the things I thought about since we talked about it, since you said there's four tiers, okay, give both L.A. teams, Toronto and Milwaukee, give them all a buy.

I'm not a big fan of buys. What do they do during a buy to sit around, sit around for a week and a half, two weeks, do nothing? It's like, like it works. And we've been sitting around for three months, Kevin? I'm not a fan of it. While other teams are playing competitive games and getting into like serious basketball shape, you have the top teams sitting around,

it doesn't work for me. And that's why with the NHL plan, NHL has 24 teams and they have a number of teams competing in a round-robin format, but the top four teams are all competing against each other for seating purposes. That works in the NHL because of how close those teams are in the standings. You can't just have the Bucks and Lakers

who are only the two teams so far ahead removed from everybody else battling each other before the playoffs began. It doesn't make sense for the NBA. But to your point, though, there are things you can do. There are little things that you can do to give them an advantage. And whether that's balancing the schedule, like Lakers would only face a tier two team once, but they would face a tier five team three times. You could do that to balance the schedule.

Make it harder for the teams at the bottom, make it a little bit easier for the teams at the top. I get that. That's a good idea. I think it's just easier just to say you face every team in your group twice and call it a day, but that's just me. There are things you can do with the group stage to make it even more equal than it already is inherently. But ultimately, though, like, we don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen. Every executive executive told me they don't know what's going to happen. They expect there to be something new to happen here and not just go straight back to 30 teams starting back in the regular season.

but that is still on the table too. Remains to be seen. Do you think that if Damian Lillard and more importantly, Zion Williamson, we're in playoff spots right now, that there would be as much of a onus to try to have the opportunity for other teams to get in? I will tell you there's not a person,

there's not a person in Memphis that does not think that they are doing this to try to get Zion in. If you're playing in, right, if they're giving teams the opportunity to play in, right? Are they doing that because they want the players on those teams in instead of the teams that are already there? Or are they doing it honestly for fairness? Well, I mean, I heard Windhorst yesterday saying Zion's a component. And of course he is. Undoubtedly, getting Zion back and playing and getting an opportunity as part of it.

Because look, man, New Orleans had the easiest schedule remaining in the NBB. for the rest of the season. Memphis is the hardest one. And that could have been one hell of a race. They had common games against each other as two. We got robbed of seeing those battles between those teams, Jha and Zion, two incredible young players going at it, playing the AAU team together. I mean, the storylines were awesome. It's a shame we're not going to get that.

The league, of course, they would want to be able to give Zion a chance here. However, the NBA also proposed a 7 to 10 play-in tournament before all this happened. and at the time, people that argue against it said, who wants to see, you know, Charlotte faced Detroit and a playing tournament? Who would want to watch that?

The league, clearly, would want that to happen because they proposed it. And they proposed it without the knowledge necessarily that Zion Williamson would be involved in that ever, right? I mean, like, there is a chance Zion in his career would never be involved in a playing tournament

because the team was either too good or too bad to be involved in it. But the league proposed, it anyway, regardless of who would be involved in that. So I don't necessarily think it's the main reason for the league here. The main reason is they want to push innovation that they think is for the best for the game moving forward, not just for the short-term gain of having Zion Williamson play again. That obviously is an incentive and it's a reason to push for it hard, but it's not the number one reason. Last thing, after talking to all these people, would you be

shocked if there are more than 20 teams involved in whatever they come to terms with. No, I want to be shocked. You wouldn't. I mean, 20, no, I mean, 24 could still be possible too. Gotcha. I would, I would not be shocked at all, but I, nothing, nothing would shock me to be honest with you, Chris. The only thing that would shock me is if all 30 teams are back, that would shock me. But if it was 24 teams, that I would not be shocked. Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I just wanted to make sure you were listening to podcasts on Spotify. Here's how you do it. First, search for your favorite podcast on Spotify's app. They have a library of over 750,000 pods at this point.

So let's say you're searching for the rewatchables or the Dave Chang show or the Ringer NBA show. Once you find them, click on the follow button. That's how you subscribe. Then click on those letters near the top of the app that say podcasts. All the pods you're following will pop up separated by episodes, downloads, and shows. Wait, it gets better. Spotify, you can adjust the speed of the pods to seven different speeds. 0.5 times is the slowest.

I actually sound drunk at 0.5. You can do 0.8 times, 1.2 times, which is my favorite. Everyone sounds like they just had a good cup of coffee. And then there's 1.5 times, 2 times. And if you're completely insane, three times. Anyway, Spotify's app connects directly to many of the best automobiles in the world. It even has a car play feature that's pretty cool. Best of all, it's free.

Download Spotify on any device, and you're good to go. Should you be embarrassed that you're not listening to podcasts on Spotify? Well, I don't want to app sham you. But the answer, unfortunately, is yes. Make the move. Listen to podcasts on Spotify. Back to yours. All right.

Every week on Friday, we have been doing a mailbag from our listeners from literally around the globe. I have been shocked and amazed at how many questions we have gotten from all over this great world. Bobby Wagner, what do we got this week? All right. This first question comes from Craig. and we'll start with a couple NBA return questions here just since we're on the topic. He says, my question is about roster structure

when the league restarts. There'll likely be some players who either won't want to play or can't get back. He's referring to international players who might not have the clearance to travel back, for example. If there are significant holes in rosters, could there be a possibility of a boom

in free agency signings of players like Swaggy P who recently said he wants to be back in the NBA or players from the big three like Joe Johnson who was trying to come back not that long ago? I haven't heard about this. Have you, Kevin? I mean, I was under the impression that everybody would be able to get back. And I'd have imagined if you're an NBA player, they'll get you back.

So I don't think this is going to be a massive problem. My impression when it comes to players traveling back, it sounds like the league is going to give ample time for players to get back and to get back in shape. So I would not expect that to be a problem necessarily. But then again, you do have guys alluding to the fact that they won't play? What about the guys that wouldn't choose to play because they want to stay overseas? Because they want to stay home. Maybe then there would be more of a market for guys who are like,

hell yeah, I'll play. But I don't, I don't necessarily think to answer your question, Craig, it wouldn't be impactful more than maybe one or two guys. But I wouldn't say it's an impact. The league's going to give them time. And what are you going to do? You're going to replace Luca with Joe Johnson? Come on. What are we talking about here? Oh, let's replace Jai Morantz. That's what we'll do. He's in town. He didn't go anywhere.

He is. He is. Lucas's been out of the country, right? Didn't he go back home? I believe so. Yeah. No problem with getting Jai. He's just got to drive 20 minutes to the arena.

Or I guess get down to Disney World. Is Grizzly's arena practice facilities open right now? For a couple weeks. Okay. I thought so. Thought so. Yep. All right.

Speaking of Disney World, Jared wants to know. they're a little confused. Everybody is talking about the Disney World plan as though the NBA players will be the only ones there. Disney appears to be bracing to open the theme parks

as soon as they possibly can around the world. Is there something I'm missing here? So I guess he's saying if the NBA playoffs goes on for a few months, if Disney starts to phase their theme parks back open

wouldn't the NBA players not be in a bubble? It's not a bubble. It's a neutral site. It's a campus environment. It's never been a bubble. We use that. word too early. We took the word too seriously. It is not a closed off bubble. And with Disney opening

the parks to people, my expectation would be that the league will have a certain area of the park closed off in which players will have space to move around. There could be restaurants there. There could be a movie theater there, whatever it may be. There will be space for the players. And, yes, as has been reported before, players will be able to leave. And it is their responsibility to practice safety precautions when they're out of that so-called bubble or neutral site, whatever it may be. But it's not a bubble and it never was. I'd imagine it'd be that wide world of sports complex and they would just create the campus that they can there because they've got the hotels and they've got the arenas there and then you pretty well stay in that

immediate area as much as you can. Right. But I mean, you're still doing constant testing. And I don't think that this is one of those situations. I know the way it makes it sound. If you're opening a theme park, it's like, well, hell, why don't you just put them down at Times Square, you know, have them walk around a billion people? Like, I don't think that that is, I don't think that's of concern that they would be around,

or else they wouldn't be doing it at Disney World. They are trying to put these guys in the safest environment that they can. Well, I mean, for players, there are rumblings only because, like, you can't book hotel rooms here, but there are rumblings players could stay at Coronado Springs Resort, which is at Disney World, and it's like a 10-minute drive up the street, easy straight shot to the ESPN Wide World of Sports Complex that you mentioned. And I investigated them that in the past.

For like those junior NBA competitions for kids they have around the world, they had them stay at Coronado Springs in the past, I believe 2018. was the last one they stayed at that same hotel resort, and they also played at the wide world of sports complex. So it would make a logical sense that the NBA would do what they've done before with that hotel and with whatever bus plan they have to bring players from the hotel to the complex. And of course, now it's in a far different world, far different environment. But at least they've done it before.

Granted, it was with kids and not 40, 50 people, a part of an NBA team, however many are needed to send to the arena. But the NBA has been at Disney World before. People that work for the league have been there before and have run events before. So that at least helps a little bit when looking back with how to plan for what's going to be happening right now. All right, Bobby, what we got next?

Okay, next question comes from Mustafa. What do you think is the most overrated and underrated stat in the NBA? First one that comes to mind and overrated is the defensive metrics. Like the fact that they do get quoted, they do. So like a defensive rating or something like that, those get those get quoted and they are just so dependent upon the other four guys that are on the court with you, much more so than many of the other stats that get talked about. The ones that are contingent so much upon who is on the court with you, those ones are always the overrated ones because they.

they became chic and they became quoted quite a bit. Underrated stat? She's, you got any? I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what you're right about overrated. That's for damn sure. Using defensive rating,

it's a team stat. I remember in like the 2014 season, I want to say it was the player who led the NBA and defensive rating was Kelly Olenick. Kelly Olinick led the NBA in defensive rating, but really what it was is that the Boston Celtics led the NBA in defensive rating when Kelly Olinic was on the floor. It's a stark difference. Kelly didn't. The Celtics did when Kelly was on the floor. But who else was on the floor with Kelly Olinick at the time?

Marcus Smart was on the floor. And he was like second or third in defense and defensive rating. It's a team stat, not a player stat. And for all defensive stats, whether it's blocks or steel. it is not necessarily indicative of what a great defensive player is. And that came to mind watching the last dance recently, like Dennis Rodman, who never averaged high numbers and blocks and steals. He had a heck of a lot of rebounds,

but his block and steel numbers were not significantly high. And that's true for quite a lot of great defenders in league history. So whether it's blocks or steel or defensive rating, there's no great publicly available defensive rating stat. or any defensive stat to gauge a defensive player, in my opinion. In terms of underrated stats, I mean, I think all the stats that are used that are publicly available are pretty good. I think what's underrated is the potential of tracking systems, what Second Spectrum does.

I think the capabilities there that are sort of untapped publicly are underrated. Even though we see it used, I use that data with what I'm able to use. with what's like put out there by NBA.com. You know, I think what Kevin Pelton and Zach Lowe and guys at ESPN do with second spectrum data is great. But in terms of the potential and the capabilities of that with what could be, that aspect is underrated to me, not necessarily won any individual stat. Here you go.

I'm going to throw you a major curveball. All right, because one of the things that has come up over the years now has become like, oh, you know, you just look at points per game, right? Points per game, Twitter. points per game, Reddit guy, points per game, whatever. Somewhere along the way, you do that. Somewhere along the way, the points per game thing, because it was used to discredit like, you know,

Kyrie Irving or an Andrew Wiggins or whoever you want to talk about, somewhere along the way, it became chic to not care as much about. In the end, Kevin, the name of the game, is putting the ball in the basket. And I defy you to go look up and down who are the top 50 guys in the NBA in points per game. Guess what?

You're going to find out that they're pretty damn good as compared to their peers. And yes, there's going to be guys that that's all they do. And that's what they're good for. And so, therefore, it is used. But it became, it was almost like bad to have a great points per game average.

or that that was used as an argument for you. Whereas when you look, you look up and down. And especially now, I mean, look, I'm the one that's lamented the fact of defensive prowess and guys now that are great defenders. Many of them can't even get on a court anymore. You got to be able to score. That's what everybody cares about now. And it used to be, it was like, oh, well, he can't defend anybody.

They don't even care if you can defend any money anymore. Trey Young started the All-Star game. I mean, get out of here. So I don't know how, like, we live in a world where Trey Young, I think he's fourth in the NBA and scoring. He averaged as almost 30 points a game. And this is one of the guys that the league really promotes and is a star. But how many people are sitting around talking about how bad Trey Young is as a defender.

I do think somewhere along the way, the guys. Guys that can put the ball in the bucket, they're the ones that now have the advantage in terms of getting drafted high. And the league has just changed so dramatically, even in the last five years, that if you can't score, you can't play. End of story. Chris, would you rather have a guy who averaged 31.6 points per game or a guy who averaged 29.1 points per game? Oh, I'd love to have either of them. Okay, would you rather have a guy who averaged 31.6 points per game and a 55.4 true shooting percentage? Or would you rather have a guy who averaged 29.1 points per game and a 61.3 true shooting percentage?

Well, I mean, you've got to give me the full context. Well, I mean, I'm just asking between those two. Just on the surface, the second guy is the better scorer. So you're saying James Harden is better than Russell Westbrook. I am telling you that James Harden, well, I don't, if you told me, I wouldn't fight you on that. Okay.

I wouldn't fight you on that until it comes to a game seven. And then you ask me who I want. And then you ask me who I want on my team tonight. Russell Westbrook, 20% from outside. Tell me, what is the game is outside? Bro, he killed us. Or he killed me. Kill me.

You got to get off me. You guys are back, baby. It's been like an episode and a half since you really had a real true disagreement. It feels good. No, this isn't an disagreement. I'm just saying that, like, the nerds took this way too far. And they started quoting all kinds of crap that nobody cares about. And then just said, oh, it's points for game.

Like, it's this condescending. Like, it was a bad thing to average a lot of point squadsquering. board. One of the problems, one of the problems, I mean, look, analytics is great and it's important, but one of the problems with it with presenting it is you need to make it translatable. You need to make it understandable. And for a lot of people, it's just not, it can be really complicated and hard to understand. Like, why would you use per 75 possessions to talk about how great a score is?

I mean, that on the surface is really hard to understand. I mean, why is because there's an average of about 75 processions in a game today. So you're normalizing history, you know, with different possession speeds of game, different pace with possessions. But that's a really complicated thing for people to to grasp on the surface at a mainstream level. Basketball stats are also, they don't, people have, and this is, look, this is the baseball influence. And I grew up reading the Bill James stuff.

And baseball, it all started to make sense. as you, and then it went entirely too far to where you were talking in a different language to people with their war and their vorp and their, you know, batting average on ball. Biting average on balls in play and like all this shit and everybody's like, stop already. Well, right. All that stuff was good.

Huh? I said all that stuff is good. Everything you just named is really good. Well, that's the thing. So like when it comes to baseball, I remember, I think it was the 04 Cy Young race between Roger Clemens and Randy Johnson. And Roger Clemens was like 21 and 5 that year with like a 3.2 ERA. And Rainey Johnson was like 12 and 10 with like a 2.2 ERA.

I'm just, I don't know the exact stats. Bobby, you might off the top of your head because you are a baseball expert, a baseball follower. But I remember that year thinking to myself like, how the heck is Roger Clemens going to win Sion when it's supposed to be the award for the best pitcher just because he had more wins? No, no. is a product of him being on a better team.

Correct. But what I'm saying, though, is like, in baseball, though, some of these more advanced stats, it is like pitcher and hitter. There's so many less variables out there. So these stats are easier to calculate. And they're also easier to understand because there's not as many variables that there are in an NBA game. Like possession, simply the speed of the game.

And possession affects your numbers. And never mind the amount of people on the court and all that as well. Baseball is a better game for advanced statistics. Baseball fans won, two. The smarter baseball fans won. I mean, you saw DeGrom won last year, right? Like, and Felix Hernandez, that was the famous one, when Felix Hernandez won his award,

despite his lack of wins, because there became a better way to understand. I'm just saying it went very, very far in that particular sport to where most people couldn't digest it as well. and the arguments became like when people were arguing who is the better player, you couldn't even argue it anymore without these stats that you would have to look up on some site you never even have never visited in your life, right, to understand who's good at baseball.

That being said, with basketball, it has infiltrated in some form. What's stunning to me is when I talk to Daryl and I talked to John Hollinger and I talked to so many that were kind of responsible for bringing analytics in, they are much less married to it than so many people that write about it or argue about it all the time. It's bizarre, right, because it just got taken. And obviously, you know, the baseball thing got taken, in my opinion, a little too far, certainly for the casual fan. But with basketball, it's just not the same.

And most of that is because of what you said. There's, you are just, even your, individual numbers are so dependent upon who is out there with you. And there's so much more that goes into it rather than just a baseball player that, because even with the baseball stuff, I'm sorry, Bobby, I'll listen to these guys and they'll say that they, you know, oh, well, it's a small sample size. It'll be 100 games in. It'll be like, oh, well, you need seasons of data in order to figure out. It's like, and the other, the one that drove me crazy. And I'm fan of these guys, but the one that drove me crazy was there was the huge argument like three

or four years ago. And this is when I was like, all right, I'm out, where it was pitch to score. Do you remember this? Do you remember this argument that was going on? Okay. You know, Keith Law or one of these guys that was going on. And they say that there is absolutely no evidence. They studied it. They looked at it. And there is no evidence that a pitcher pitches to score. and then you'll interview somebody like Max Scherzer and they say, do you pitch differently when you have a 6-0 lead? And it's like, of course. Of course I pitch differently when I've got a 6-0 lead than when it's 0 to 0.

And the guys would say, well, look, we've looked at the stats. And he may think that and he may say that, but there's no difference in what he does. And I'm like, bro, when it gets to the point where you're telling the players what they do and don't do, that's when I'm like, I can't take this anymore. I can't. I can't think it. I think there is always that gray area in analytics where there's just stuff that is truly unquantifiable.

And it's the subliminal nature of players' brains. But where there's room in basketball for it to grow, at least I think in the public discourse, is something like, can you quantify the gravitational pull of Steph Curry when he's on the court via tracking data? Can you say Steph weighs this much and pulls the defense away? by this many feet just by being in a certain area. And that's where I think analytics is rich because it can cross over with a conversation that we're all already having already.

And it can make that conversation smarter. But you're right. I mean, people are always going to take it too far. People in baseball took it too far and they stopped actually enjoying the game. You're allowed to, and I think someone like Michael Baumann on The Ringer is really smart about analytics, but also just enjoys actually watching the players do the thing. and I think that you've had to walk that fine line a lot more carefully in baseball because there are so many tools in your toolkit.

Yeah. Well, and then obviously with all of that, and some of this has happened in basketball more so too. But when you watch postseason baseball, every damn thing a manager did, everything. Everything a manager does. It's like, this guy is, you know, these guys hit 313 again. against left-handers this year. And, but right-handers hit 128 against him.

What the hell is he doing? Putting a left-to-going up against lefties, whatever. And, like, you don't know. You don't know. I mean, that's the manager's job. He's got to read these guys. Maybe the guy's going through a divorce. Maybe he had a bender last night.

Maybe, you know, maybe he just doesn't trust him in a big spot. He thinks he's a shrinking violent, whatever it may be. But that everything, and I worry basketball becoming. this, that everything that does not, you know, jive with the number on that sheet of paper is the wrong decision. And that's just, that's ridiculous. I don't think it'll ever become that extreme. Coaches will always factor in the human element that you're alluding to there,

you know, with your example, with the numbers like lefties versus righties. The human element will always matter to a coach and it will always matter to the best general managers and decision makers in the league. Maybe there are some front offices that that will be. become so extreme with numbers that it will not be that, that they will hire a coach who always leans on the numbers. But I would be surprised if you ever reach that point. The human element is integral to success in sports and decision making. Here you go. And I'll give you one, one quick one now that we've gotten in this long discussion, one that is underrated. And I'll

say this because obviously I listen to all of the Taylor Jenkins press conferences. And he, with the help of John Morant, greatly exceeded all expectations this year. One of the things he talks about almost at every press conference is where they got their shots and where their opponent got their shots. And then basically the expected return on that. And that's why, I mean, that's the genesis of why you have seen the league change so much with the whole lay it up or tray it up and what people take. But there's something clearly to that, defending in a way that you want other teams to take shots in this particular area and you want to get your shots from these particular areas.

That seems to be the thing that, you know, obviously he came from Bootinthalser in Milwaukee, but that the good teams are really doing now is the shot tracking and where they get their shots versus where other teams are getting their shots. And then you play the odds. When it comes to on-off data, a lot of people, like you and I both say this as well, like when a certain player is on the court, they outscore a team by a certain amount compared to when they're off the court. What a number of executives over the years have said to me is more valuable than net rating in that situation is shot location data.

If Rudy Gober is on the court, what are the shots the opponent is taking compared to the shots they're taking when Rudy Gober is off the court? That is what's more valuable. The process-oriented data more so than the results oriented data. And that is something I've tried to do a lot more of over the years to more and more and more. I hear that feedback from teams is that, you know, look at the shot location data, the process more so than the actual results, the net rating, offensive rating, defensive rating. And the last thing I'll say on this is that I think as a collective media, we have to accept that the analytics movement is trying to paint with a broad brush. They're not trying to

solve for one pitcher change decision. That's like not, that's not the point of it. The point is to get better outcomes over a large, like you said, Chris, like a large sample, meaning a whole season. and you make smart decisions and eventually you hope that those decisions combined with the good players and the good dudes that you assemble will lead to a championship. Not that that one pitcher change

or that one sub is going to win you a title because it's not. And you could never claim that it would because there's just the ball might bounce the other direction. Or there might be a rain delay and so the Cubs get a championship. Jeez. Okay.

This is a fun one from Ali. It's a little callback to a segment we did last year. So he says, my name's Ali. I'm a religious mismatch fan from Sydney, Australia, home of Albeck, Jesus. I'm also good mates with Jack, who exposed KOC about his Luca take. Last year, you did a pod about the islands you were still on.

I've listed them all below. Nearly a year later, are you still on those islands, or have you left them and have you bought some property on any new islands? So we'll start with Chris. Oh, I don't even want to hear these. They're not as bad as you think. Oh, they're not? Jordan Bell, Trey Liles, Frank Mason, Luke Conard, Denzel Valentine,

Sendarius Thornwell and Jabari Parker. Damn it. Canard, a million percent. I'm going down. That one turned out great for me before he got injured. He was having a really good year.

Conard for sure. Dornwell is not in the league. Frank Mason ain't in the league. Trey Liles, I'm done. I'm out. After this Spurs run. So, yeah, I'm done. with him. Who else? Who are the other ones? Trey Liles? Jordan Bell. I had him for a minute.

Here in Memphis. They traded for him. He never got on the court and then he's gone. Valentine and Jabari. Jibari. Oh, Valentine's a good one. I'm holding out hope for Valentine. Yeah, he's just got to get out of Chicago. He's been in a rat situation his whole career. A rat situation. And Jabari. mean, I guess. It's like a 400 square feet apartment that you have. You're going to hold on to it. Like I don't need Jabari being on another bad team.

Like, Javari Parker needs to go to a good team, like to play for a good team and be a reserve for a good team. And I do think he could have, you know, he could certainly be valuable to a good team when he comes off the bench and, could get you buckets on a second unit and take over a game maybe for a 10-minute span. And so I won't give up on him completely.

But yeah, I guess so the ones I'm married to from that, Knard for sure. And I'm still, yeah, I'm still on Valentine Island. I am. I'm with you, Chris. He just needs to be Kyle Kuzma, you know. He used to be on a good team and score 41 night and 10 the other night and for it not to matter. It's fine.

Yeah, right. No problems. I'm with you on Valentine and, Parker, Chris. What are mine, Bobby? Okay, Terrence Ferguson, Justin Anderson, Aaron Gordon, Moe Bomba, of course, and Brandon Ingram. I don't know if that counts so much as an island.

Brandon Ingram was like a bogus pick. How is that a bogus pick? Last year people were trashing him. No, they weren't. I don't know. Yeah, they were. But anyway, um, I'm in on all of them except for Justin Anderson. Justin Anderson was a guy that I he's taking out with

Darius Thornewell. Why are the players on my list so much better than the ones on Christmas list? I feel like he picked some deep cuts. You had some like, yeah, you did. But I mean,

my guys are like, they're not too bad. They're all good players. So it would be, because you're scared of being wrong. I don't care. No, I'm not scared of being wrong.

I've been wrong plenty over the years. You're still on Mo Bamba and Aaron Gordon Island? Yeah, why would I not be? Aaron Gordon's one of the best defensive players in the league when he's locked in. And that gets overlooked. Mo Bamba this year, despite the fact he's sharing minnics with Kim Birch and Nicola Vucevich in a situation where they're trying to play two bigs, made a little bit of progress. It's not what you want.

I mean, he's not Jaron Jackson. I was wrong about that. I had Bamba ahead of Jackson. I feel like a fool, even admitting that. But I'm not giving up on Mo Bama. He's a seven-footer who can try. shoot threes. He's big. He can deter people around the rim. I'm still in on Mo Bamba and the other guys. Ingram's a star. I was right about that. Gordon's much better than he gets credit for.

Ferguson is going to be a solid role player. I'm in. Brendan Ingram was like the biggest piece in a trade for Anthony Davis. Let's not act like people were so down on him. They were. I don't know when we did this pod. This island pod. he said it was this year. It was last year, right? Yeah, last year. Last season. I wonder if it was early in the season.

Frank Mason must have been in the NBA. My guess is it was early in the season, but I'm not sure. I think you probably qualified it. You probably qualified it and said you're on that island, not as he's going to be a good player, but that he could be like an MVP. Exactly. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

And I'm still on that island. weeny. Okay, a couple quick ones, a couple personal ones for you guys. Oh, no. These both come from someone named Ryan.

Unclear if it's the same Ryan, but we're going to roll with it. What position do slash would you guys play if you created yourself in an NBA video game? Shooting guard. I always used to make shooting guard. Yeah,

I always used to make myself a wing, a shooting guard or a small forward. Always. Like, ever since I was a little kid, that's the position I made myself, like 6-8, 225, 230. I always made myself able

to just stroke threes You'd love this Kevin I would be a shooting guard But I would be like You know like Hardin or Donovan Mitchell I want to bring the ball up yeah Devin Booker Does anybody make themselves like a plotting

7 foot big like no Nobody makes themselves a center in 2K I don't know weirdos Well maybe nowadays though you could try to make yourself A 7 footer like a KD or Yannis Who handles the ball But even then I Even then, like, I'd still want to make myself a shooting guard or small forward.

Yeah, I want to score. That might just be nostalgia for some of the go-to scores in my youth, Kobe, T-Mack, guys like that, you know, that just were so damn fun to watch score the ball. Yeah, if you're out there making yourself like a Kirk Heinrich type, like, then it's not that fun. All right. Second, Ryan, what do you guys think it would be like to live together? I want a painstakingly real explanation of what you would assume daily life with the other. it would be like, we all need this. Oh my God.

Jeez. I've never even thought about what it would be like to live with Chris Williams. Yeah, I haven't either. Have you ever had a roommate? No, never. I didn't live on campus and college. I commuted. And then when I moved to L.A. lived alone. So I've only lived with my parents. I lived alone. My whole life. Never had a roommate. So I had roommates in college and then I had roommates post college. And I'm messy.

I mean, I am messy. Are you messy? No, I'm not. You're not messy. So that would drive him crazy. I'd be the person cleaning up. Yeah, he'd be cleaning up.

I'll leave like a pillow or a blanket on the floor for a bit, but then I'll pick it up when I stand up. Yeah. My room is usually clean. I think probably, like, he'd be playing his damn guitar all the time. And I'd be like, can you put on your headsets or turn it down? I don't know. I guess living was, I think we could probably live together. I mean,

generally living with somebody that you're friends with is not, I haven't, I haven't never had a problem. I've never had like a bad relationship with anybody that I've roomed with, honestly. Like I'm pretty easy to get along with. So, I mean, I think I could do it too. If we're younger, I mean, I'm old now, man. I ain't trying to room with nobody. buddy. You get a family, man. Yeah, I know. I already got enough people in my damn house.

It's more like the question would be more pertinent if it's like if you guys had to go to Disney World to cover the NBA for two months but you had to live together. What do you think that would be like? Oh, we can pull that off. Yeah, we could pull that.

Yeah, for sure. Yes. No doubt. I mean, yeah, I don't think it would be great if it were like not like separated rooms. But that's true with anybody. There was just like two twin beds in the room like a...

That's true. That's true with anybody. I would say, look, I think Kevin and I could get a room because it generally, he and I are cut from the same cloth. We both wake up in the morning and we're generally happy, optimistic, positive about... And that's the hardest part about, you know, if you're around somebody that's down all the time or is like, is angry all the time. Like, we do have the same type of personality.

though we go about it different ways in that sense, right? We generally see the good in things rather than the bad in things. And that's typically what I have found matters most about living in the same area with somebody. All right. Final question, guys. Final question. This comes from Rex. Which player's legacy do you believe would be the most impacted by gaining a ring?

Also, who would you give a ring if you had the chance? LeBron. I mean, that's kind of an obvious answer. but LeBron this season, LeBron. I mean, I think Stefan Curry and Kevin Durant, we're talking about guys that already have multiple rings. If Steph gets another, if Katie gets one without Steph,

those great players that are already in the top 20 all-time conversation, it does a lot for them and Kauai as well. I would give one to Janus. That's who I would give a ring to. I want to give a ring to anybody. Charles Barkley, maybe. And I'm probably going to show. you, I think the one it would probably impact the most is hardened.

I do. So you're looking at it differently than I am. I'm looking at the guys who already have rings and elevate to another level. You're looking at the guys who don't have a ring and what it would do for them. Yes. Because, I mean, Janus has all the time of the world. Do you know I read something last night? I don't know.

Maybe I read it on Instagram or something. I can't remember who posted it. And it had like this picture. It was a meme from somewhere. And it had a picture. and it had LeBron James in it and it had Yonnes in it and it had Brony James and it said just for a second, take a second to realize Janus is closer in age to Brony James than he is LeBron.

And I was like, what the hell? Is that true? I didn't even go look it up. I just figure, you know, the meme would have gotten corrected immediately if it was wrong. It's on the internet. It has to be true. Yeah, of course. It has to be true, right? I think it probably is true.

I mean, Janus is 24, 25 and. and that's crazy. 15. Yeah, he's closer in age to Brony than LeBrony. That is crazy. It's crazy to think in those terms, though, that Yannis is closer in age to Brony James than he is LeBron James.

But I would say, look, I think Hardin, it would change his status within the league and NBA history the most, because he's a guy with the MVP. He's got these all-time guys, great offensive accomplishments, but the winning at the highest level is the thing that is used against him, you know? And so I do think that would... Good one. I did Kauai, too. If Kauai does it with three different teams, if he's like the guy

through a finals MVP on three different teams and just goes to another team and wins it, Kauai vaults into a conversation of greatest players ever, seriously. Like he's not, he doesn't get in that conversation right now, but if you get a third, ring as the man and you went to Toronto and won and then you turned around and went to LA and won? I mean, that's

legendary. And his question wrecks throughout Chris Paul. So kind of in the same vein guys that don't have one like hard end. That's a good one too. Yeah. That's fair. All right, guys. That's all I got. Going to do it for another episode of the mismatch. If you dig with your

hand. Go give us a rating and review five stars. Five stars. It really helps. Kevin. Bobby, great weekend. I'll talk to you guys on Tuesday. Have a good one.