The Ringer NBA Show - Which Teams Have Done Enough in Free Agency to Be Championship Contenders? | Real Ones

Episode Date: November 23, 2020

Logan and Raja discuss the massive contracts that have been handed out in free agency this season (0:45) and the young players who received their first big contracts. Then they get into the free agency signings that championship contenders have made (26:00) and Klay Thompson’s season-ending injury (45:30).  Hosts: Logan Murdock and Raja Bell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, man, we're back. Logan Murdoch, Real Ones with Roger Bell. How you doing, man? You already know. You already know, bro. Listen, free agency is the best time of year. You got Thanksgiving, I mean, at least this year, you got Thanksgiving. It's the holiday season coming up. They were handing out bags. Some I agree with. Some I didn't. But I'm fired up. You fired up about Bag Talk? Let's get the Bag Talk. Let's get the bag talk real quick. Real ones. Right now. Ah. Yo, what's popping? Real Ones. This is Logan Murdoch. I'm here with Raja Bell. Listen, man, I just want to be quite frank and honest with you guys. This show almost didn't happen today because Raja was talking cash shit about Bay Area weather.

It almost was the real ones with Sasha and Logan because he was actual. That's based in absolutely no fact. You came out here on the pre-pod meeting and you were talking about the gloomy weather and shit and you were trying to make fun. What the fuck was that about? Listen, Sasha shot out. Sasha just moved. and I was just referencing the weather that you all told me was so endearing about the Bay.

Like, I ain't say shit about whether it was good or bad. You guys literally on the last pod said to me what Bay Weather was, and I just regurgitated it. Like, what? I feel like you came out here with some kind of bone to pick. Like, if you got a real bone to pick, pick that shit. I just didn't like that energy, bro. Oh, okay.

It was too early in the morning for you to be out here, be that elitist-ass energy. It's 11 where I'm at. I got two cups of coffee in me. It's game day for my high school team, and I've seen a bunch of money handed out over the last week. This got me, like, on 1,000 right now. I need to get that shit off my chest.

Your high school team, huh? Get your shit. Tell them why you mad, son. It's a lot of money being given. I'm not even mad. Like, I'm not. Because, like, NBA free agency has been a blessing to a lot of folks. Like, it's been fantastic.

Oh, I thought you were talking about the high school vibe that you're talking about right now. That got you, man. I wish I had a budget. I could go out and ink a few people, but not. The high school season starts tonight. I'm fired up. I want to see what we look like. Okay, okay.

All right. So let's get to why you mad, son. The free agency just started. You know what I mean? There was a lot of money handed out. A lot of turkeys being handed out for Thanksgiving. Blessings. I'm not mad.

I'm not mad. I'm not mad. What would you say the word is right now then? What would you say? If you had to give a word, what would you say? Envious? Like, you know, which, listen, I'm sure there were a lot of dudes that were looking at my contracts as meager as they were compared to what's being handed out now, saying the same exact thing. Like, how in the fuck can he make that kind of money? Had to be dudes from the decade before me or the, or the era before me saying that. So, like, you know, it's just the way it goes. You sound like the old heads that work to get to get to the, get these players this money, but then on the back end just, hey, I'm not hating, though. Like, a lot of the dudes who got paid were, were, like, my young

fellas in the league at one point or another. So I'm not hating. I'm, like, sitting back like, damn, like, that's what it looks like these days. That shit's kind of, it's kind of nice. So I'm not really hating. It's just, you know, you, I want to be forthright. Like, damn, it would have been nice. But it is what it is. Listen, one of those is what it is deals that you speak of, I'm just going to throw it out there. Someone we both know, someone that you know more. Gordon Haywood got the Get him G He got the bag, bro

That's my true young fella Dog like Gordon was one of my rooks Yeah dog get him Go okay okay So okay I just listen I don't He got the stupid

ridiculous Gargantuous Four year 128 million dollar contract On a sign and trade Yo To Charlotte I'm just

I'm just, it's just wild to me, man, because I don't want to say someone deserves or doesn't deserve because you deserve what you get in the open market and you deserve what someone's willing to pay you. Comma, however, I don't know what Gordon Hayward has done over the last few years to deserve this deal. Shout out to him getting the bag, because we pro bag on the real ones. However, I don't know what the hell is going on, Raja. How does he get the re-up after what we've seen over the last few years?

If I had an answer for you on that, again, let me say, Gordon, hey, I'm proud, dog. Like, that's, that's, get it. Salute, correct, salute. What MJ and company were thinking on that one, I have no idea. I just don't. I mean, I'm not saying he doesn't, you know, he can't be that player again, but he hasn't been that player. for the last few years. So, you know, I knew something was up, though, dog,

when you opt out of $30-some million, like people were like, what the fuck? Like, what's he doing? He out of 34-mill. He's bugging. People were like, he's bugging. I'm like, yeah, he's fucking bugging, but he knows something.

And I know Bartolstein, his agent, like, they knew something. Somebody was talking that, that bag lingo to them. And apparently, it was MJ and, and, and, and, he had suitors ready to give him $100 million. Bro, come on, man. He had more than, one team because

there was reported that Indiana was in talks to getting the sign and trade as well. That makes, he's an Indiana kid. So if you said to me, they were going to overpay Gordon Hayward to come back. They're a team that could use a piece like Gordon, even though I don't, you know, Gordon could get back to that. I'm going to say it again.

Hasn't necessarily been Hayward, either because of injury or because of opportunity, you know, with the Celtics because of Jalen Browns Emergence and Jason Tatum and Kemba. You can argue that Gordon didn't get the ball as much, therefore, wasn't as productive. We can have those arguments. But if Indiana was going to overpay him, Logan, you're overpaying him, but he's a hometown

kid, and there are reasons to do that. Like, Charlotte, I don't get it. I don't get it. The fact that Charlotte also waived Nick Batum, who also had a crazy deal to make this deal work, you got out of a deal that was already egregious. And then you come back around and you give a deal to Gordon Hayward, who hasn't shown he can play consistently because of health and a lot of factors. But he hasn't shown he could put a consistent body of work yet out yet since his days in Utah. And you just gave him this.

It reminds me of when, who am I thinking about, played for the, played for the Rockets, played for the Memphis Grizzlies. Yeah, Chandi, Chandler Parsons? Chandler Parsons. Exactly. Reminds me a Chandler Parsons who got two fat deals off potential, off the potential to do something. Off the poe. What you say Gordon Hayward money is number one money or number two money in today's MBA?

Like that's like number one or number two money? Okay. I don't know it could be number one or number two money. That's not the point. It doesn't matter because he didn't play like either one of those. He didn't play like a number one or number two over the last three, four years. I would agree. And so for me, it matters because if you were telling me, you know, he's going to be number three.

Like you've priced him out of the number three spot, right? You've priced him out. It's too expensive for that. And he hasn't, I love G, but I had made the argument way back when I was working at CBS that I think he's a really, really, really good number two, not necessarily a number one. but he was kind of cast in the number one role. Like he was like a leading man. I never really thought that was going to be the case, even when he went to Boston.

I thought he was a number two, but now after injury and because of the way he's played again, it could be circumstantial. I think he's more of a really good number three. But in either case, it doesn't matter. You're absolutely right. It doesn't fucking matter. I'm talking myself in circles.

He didn't do anything to get that type of bread this time around the chopping block. That's facts. You can't argue that. how does this make a player feel who may be more deserving and who may who lost out on that type of bag who has been putting up 20 points a game who has been putting up gaudy numbers and for a player to see that does that does that have any any residual effect across the league raja yeah of course i mean i i watched people get deals um when i played like again i don't

I don't play now. So, you know, I'm looking at this through the media lens and kind of from the old player, like, damn, that money must be nice kind of lens. But when I played and you were given Jason Capono the same money I was making, like, or more than me, like, I was fucking pissed. Like, you know, that's what happens. Now, you ultimately good for them, right? Like, you're not counting another man's bread.

But at the end of the day, we all feel like we have value and there's like a pecking order to like where you're slotted into your position. And so if somebody is going hop up and get that kind of bread and you're sitting there looking around and you can't command, I don't know, two-thirds of that, then yeah, you're going to feel some kind of way. But it is what it is. Are you going at that player? Were you going at Jason Capona when you saw him after he got the bag? Every time. Every time. And not even your fault. Like, you feel bad for those dudes. It's not, it wasn't just, you know, Jason Capone, but you'd feel bad for for taking that out on them because it's not their fault, like, good for them.

But you'd be naive to think that players didn't look at other players who they deemed themselves better than who might have gotten a better contract and feel some kind of way about that. That's just life. Yeah. And you were talking about another one, Joe Harris, got the bag as well. There was a lot of, like, curious bags that came out. What was the most curious bag in your eyes? Was it the Gordon Hayward one?

Or was there another one that was just like, what is going on right now? you're looking around. You're looking at the alligator outside. You're looking at things. What are you looking at? What makes you like, what is going on? Now, you know, I'm not on Twitter. So I don't see these when they pop up.

Like, I don't, I'm not like sitting here just watching every deal that goes down. I'm getting texts from people. So the first one, the first text that I saw, I don't know if it happened first. The first text that I saw was the Joe Harris text. And Joe's turned into a nice player, like a really nice player. But that was S-18 roughly a year. That one, I was like, whoa, that's okay. Then the Gordon deal topped it for me.

And Gordon's a much better player than Joe Harris. I'm not arguing that. But, you know, when we're talking about the last few years and the way last year played out, to opt out of the 34 and get what he got in Charlotte, that was the most, like, mind-boggling for me. That was some gangster. shit. Hey, bro, I do you think, bro. But, you know, Joe, Joe, I look Joe up this morning to just

trying to see, you know, what was going on. Like, that's, that's a lot, that's a lot of bread. You know, that type of bread usually is a true three and D guy, like at the top of your field in that. And I don't know, you correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not as plugged in as I need to be. Like, Joe's not a three and D. He's a three guy, right? Like, he, he gets some buck it's like there's no D in that equation, is there? No, you can, and the thing is, you can get somebody like that for cheaper who can just shoot threes.

And round out your roster. That one fucked me up. I just, I don't know, man. I think, and you can't combat against that type of stuff. You just can't. Like, if somebody wants to pay you, like, it is what it is. And it's always going to be like that. And that's, it's, it is unfair sometimes when you see these players

and they do get these deals and, you know, they do get judged for these deals going out of the line, they fault. Somebody wanted to give them this money. It's not. I felt the same way, I mean, years ago when I was in the Cleveland front office, the deal, I remember it. I was sitting there and they gave Damari Carroll. And Damari was another young and I played with. And I had no beef, but they threw, what was it, four years, 60 million at him off of like a year in Atlanta. I think Toronto gave it to him. And I was like, yeah, you know, hey, good for you.

But that's, I just didn't see that coming, you know. you have front off experience. Why do those deals happen? That's a good question. I mean, you know, I remember when Gordon Hayward, I was consulting with the Cavs when he was a free agent the last time around. And their thought on it was, you know, you were just going to have to pay him that to get him because someone else was going to pay him that.

So like that's what someone else was willing to pay. And so if you wanted him bad enough and you were trying to make a big enough, enough splash, then you were going to have to step up and pay that as well. For the Nets, I kind of think that I don't know that they knew anyone else was going to pay that. I think Joe, it's a fit type of deal, right? Joe's a good fit with what they got going on there with Kevin Durant, Kyrie. He's been productive for a few years there. So, you know, he's one of their own. So I think you go out and you make the statement that we're going to kind of take care of one of our own. I mean, maybe he would have got that on the open market, but I don't necessarily think so.

Yeah, it looked at greases at face value, but also if you, if you, like we said before in the show, if you get someone to pay you that much, like go get it. Go get that bread, bro. Like, let's. And Damaris, Damaris, you didn't ask me about Damaris necessarily, but Damaris, you know, was another unique city that's Toronto. And Toronto historically has to overpay a little bit to get cats to come. Why, though? Is it because of the taxes and, is it? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, it's the taxes and whatnot. So there's a, you know, you have to factor that in when you're handing out deals if you're the Toronto, you know, brass. I mean, I couldn't imagine. I would take a discount to go to Toronto, man. I couldn't imagine just being like, man, you got overpay me to go to Toronto. But let's talk about some, let's talk about the bags for the younger guys, man, rookie extensions.

Yeah. There was some bags handed out, Raja. We got Deerian Fox. We got a hundred ninety-five meal. We got Jason Tatum who also got a 195 meal We have Donovan Mitchell who also got the bag Now what I want to ask you is Out of all of those three guys that I named

And also congratulations of those guys That all the three guys that I named Who are you who is the guy that you're saying I'm known without a doubt I'm starting to franchise With that guy right there probably Jason Tatum. It's a toss-up. It's not really a toss-up.

It's close between Jason Tatum and Donovan Mitchell. And I'll tell you why. I think that from a physical standpoint, I want the bigger, ranger player. But we've had this argument on the pod before. I think that Donovan Mitchell has the killer in him. that I think you need to have, and I'm certain about it. I think Jason Tatum has it.

I'm just not 100% certain, and I voice my concerns about that in the playoffs. I'm not saying that he isn't that guy. I'm just saying I need to see it. Because I was Team Tatum during the postseason. I was Team Tatum. No, no facts. And you probably should be.

I think, you know, I just didn't think he was all that in these playoffs, where Donovan Mitchell, you saw what him and, and even Jamal Murray, when the moments were theirs, and they needed to produce. They stepped up and they took the bull by the horns. That, for me, wasn't on full display for Jason Tatum in the playoffs.

And I think that's fair. He might even tell you that. I think he can be that guy, though. I think I'm building around Jason Tatum, though, because it's a bigger body. The skill set is ridiculous off the charts. You're going to be able to score in a variety of different ways and a better shooter. So I'm going to take Jason Tatum. I'm taking Jason Tatum as well.

I really want to give shouts out to Deerrin Fox, but I really want to, I really want that to work out in Sacramento, man. You know, Sacramento is one of those franchises that historically has not done well in the front office. There's a reason why they haven't been in the postseason since 2006. I really want that to work for Deeran Fox because it seems like a great fit. They love him in Sacramento, and he seems like a great fit for that city

and a great fit for that team. He's been their best player for the last few years. I just hope that that works out. How much does, how much is it when a player signs that deal? And I want to, because we know that Jason Tatum and we know that Donovan Mitchell, they're going to, they're going to be on contenders for the next few years. I'm not sure about that with the Aaron Fox. How important is it for a franchise to get it right and do good during that next four years?

Because I feel like this is when the clock starts. Oh, it's, it's super important. You give for two reasons, right? If Darren Fox winds up becoming a perennial all-star, and you can't get that right from a franchise perspective, he's not sticking around, you know? He's, if you're not getting it done around him, you know, in the next four years, that's an indictment on you all.

And I imagine, you know, he's up and gone to somewhere where he feels like he can get it done or at least organizationally, they'll put him in a place to try to get it done. And on the flip side of that, once you hand a bag out, Logan, you have to be producing on that all-star level year-in and year out holding up your end of the bargain or they've made a mistake. And to your point, he's been their best player for the last few years. But when you get paid like that, you have to be the best player on a winning team, in my opinion,

for it to be warranted. Now, that's not always the case. They give out a lot of bags and dudes or best players on bad teams. But for it to be a sound investment, I think you've got to win. And so he's got to get to work as well. He's got to be that perennial All-Star. Do you think he's in that level of what tier do you say he's in? Let's say Jason and Donovan are in that tier one of young guys. Do you put him in it, do you put Fox in the tier two or maybe the tier three? Because I think I have them in the middle

between the three and the two of the tiers. Yeah, let's let's, uh, I would say Deerran Fox is in tier two if you're telling me that tier one is Jason Tatum because they've arrived, they've established. They're on the scene, they've got it done in playoff games. You've seen that. He's going to be in a tier below that. Not tier three.

I think he's better than a tier three young fellow, but I think he's in the tier two where you see it. It produces on a night-to-night basis, but it's got to translate into wins and into carrying a team past the point where they were the year before. And so that, you know, the jury is still out on him in regards to that. So tier two safely. Yeah.

And back to Jason Tatum and Donovan Mitchell, Jason Tatum was, I saw in the Boston Globe that his, his mother said that he wants to be in Boston for life, all right? And same with Donovan Mitchell. You know, everything I've heard is he wants to just stay. He wants to be in Utah, at least at the moment. How much, like, I think I asked you this earlier, but like, how much do they have to see in order for them to stay long term, right? How much do you have to give to a player to make them want to stay long term? Does it mean that Boston has to be in the Eastern Conference Finals

Finals conversation every year? Does that mean that the Jazz have to be in the Western Conference Finals every year for him to even, for them to be satisfied? That's a good question. It's, it's, nuanced. The answer is, you don't, you don't have to be in the Eastern or Western Conference finals every year. Now, obviously, your goal is to be there. Your goal is to win a championship. But what you have to see from the organization is a willingness to continue to do the things that give you guys a chance to be there, Logan.

There are a lot of factors that go into whether you get their injuries, are an uncontrollable thing by an organization or a player. You know, different things like that can derail a campaign for the Eastern or Western or Western Conference Championship. But if a team is willing to continue to go out there, put pieces around you, give up assets to get you the type of support that you need in the quest for those championships. I think the team has done as part for a player to want to continue to stay. Now, if the team's dragging their feet, they're not willing to go into the tax.

They don't want to give up a draft pick to swing a deal for a guy can help you win right now. Those are the type of things to turn off players, right? They're like, look, I'm here. We're invested. You are certainly invested, but I am invested. And I want you to continue to push the envelope in terms of getting. me the support and making the team what it needs to be around me. If they're doing that as an organization, those guys are probably cool, bro.

Once they stop doing it, then that conversation changes real quickly, and you know that. James Taylor can come out and say whatever she wants. Donovan Mitchell would say whatever he wants. If they stop doing what they're supposed to do as an organization around them, that conversation changes real quick. It does. And out of those three names I named from you, who do you think would be, and this is all speculations, I'm not saying that there's any, I'm not.

I'm just throwing this question out in the dark. Who do you think out of that three crop stays with their team long term? And who do you think that leaves? I would say that just trying to take into account like the cultures of the team. They're guys that are willing to move pieces. Like, I probably Deerrin Fox. And the only reason I say that, Logan, because as I try to sort through it real quick, it's the franchise, not necessarily Deeran Fox, right?

The franchise itself isn't as stable as Utah and Boston. And so I think if one of those three were going to be moved, it might have something to do with them not as an organization meeting goals in the next few years and he becomes available to somebody. Yeah. I mean, Sacramento historically has not been able to build around their players, you know, for better or for worse. I mean, you talk about even to Marcus Cousins when he was one of the top bigs in the league,

they didn't build a good team around them. They just didn't. It wasn't something that they didn't do. And so far, Fox's talent is there, but the talent around him, or I wouldn't say, the talent around him has been okay,

but everything around him, it just hasn't been right. It just hasn't been there. It's been normal. There's nothing about the Sacramento Kings right now that's just showing me that, hey, we have a stable organization and now we're going to do it.

And this is with new ownership, a relatively new ownership, right? So I would say he's a candidate to dip, based on what we see right now. Hopefully that changes for his sake and for the king's sake, you know what I mean? You want to see them in the playoffs. You want to see a fast-paced team like that in the playoffs, but they got to do right by him. And I just, at this point, I don't see it. Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head.

You can have talent around. A lot of general managers in the seat that they're sitting in can identify talent and bring it into the building, right? Like, it's hard to miss real talent. Not all of them can find the talent that fits together and produces wins, you know what I mean? Or hire the right coach to take said talent and meld it all together and make it a championship level team.

And so, you know, that's where they've got to get over the hump because to your point, they've had some talent. It just hasn't all clicked for one reason or another. And so they got to get that right. Yeah. We're going to take a quick break and talk about more. free agency. And we're back. Talking about free agency here, we got, honestly, some winners and losers in free agency. My biggest winner in free agency is, was the Los Angeles Lakers. I mean,

if you want to talk about a team that retooled and got better after a championship, that's how you do it. That's how you do it. You get a re-signed KCP. They got Mark Gassau. They got West Matthews, which was a really big pickup, man. Really good, really strong pickup. Montres Harrell Montres Harrell Oh my goodness We talked Like last week

We talked about the Lakers bench Right And how that was just We got to see what they do In this stretch They go ahead And they get the sixth man In the year

Yeah They got the six man Of the year And swung a deal For the other potential Sixth Man of the year And could have possibly been the sixth man

Of the year In his own right And Dennis Schroeder Like they And Dennis Schroeder The rich just got richer. But, you know, the LeBron, and this is what we just talked about with Jason Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, and a star saying he wants to be somewhere for life.

What Rob Polinka is doing right now, it's telling them, hey, dog, our window is now, we're doing it. Like, I'll give up whatever I need to give it. We're going to do it right now. Now, LeBron and AD clearly is a different window than Jason Tatum or Donovan Mitchell. But that's how general managers go out and can. to build allegiance from the player side is to do that. Like, listen, I'm going to go hunting. I'll find you whatever pieces we need to continue to keep this window alive.

And Rob Polinka did that. Yeah. And it was really impressive. The Schroeder thing, the Schroeder signing was really, really good. And then to go out there and get a Mark Gassal, as a passing big alongside LeBron and AD, man, like this could be a really, really good team. Just in general, just I think this might be like, you could say this might be a 51 team without LeBron on the team.

No, yeah, absolutely. What you just did, I agree with you, is you got to safeguarded, you know, against the potential downfall of a team that's going to probably need to rest LeBron a little bit this year, right? Like, you've supplemented around that to a point where you can withstand LeBron sitting out games. And if you're looking at the Lakers last year,

some of the areas where at times, they didn't look interested defensively, right? Like they didn't. Marcusole, yeah, he's a hell of a playmaker, but he's also a hell of a defender. Wes Matthews can score the ball, shoots the three, but a tough-nosed, defensive guy.

Montres Harrell, a rugged rebound and defender. Like, you have totally kind of reshaped who you are defensively. When you throw him in the mix with LeBron, when he's tuned in, an AD who could have been, you know, defensive player of the year, you have a really, really stout defense. And then the other part of their team, and it's going to sound crazy because they won a championship, where they could improve, was having more playmakers on the floor. You know, having guys that LeBron and AD could sit back and watch maybe get a bucket here and there, or at least have them facilitate offense. And

Marcus Solt does that. Dennis Schroeder gets his own buckets and can kind of get other people some looks. Like, you really filled needs all over to places. if you're to Lakers. Yeah, and I think they're writing the thing of things. I think they're a better team on paper than last year. One team that really had be kind of shook was the, was the Milwaukee Bucks. And they traded the farm for Drew Holiday, like traded every pick you can imagine for him. I don't know if, I, it reeked of desperation.

It's the price of it's the, it's all coming back to what you. you said, you got someone there who do you want him to be there long term? He said he wants to be there long term. And now your feeder to the fire as an organization. What are you going to do? What are you going to do to keep me? But it reminds me of the last few years of LeBron's first tenure in Cleveland where they were just getting guys like, yeah, let's just get this guy. He's the name. Let's go get him. I had to say Drew Holliday isn't a good player. It's a really, really good player. But I wouldn't mortgage the, I wouldn't mortgage the whole thing like that. because it's just for something that doesn't seem like

it's going to be a game-changing move. Listen, we can debate that. What you can't debate is if you want to keep Janus, you have to make moves. You can't sit back. I would say make smart moves. Your pitch to LeBron, listen, bro, your pitch to Janus is not like, hey, man,

we got a plan. Trust us on all these draft picks we have. Just give us a little time. Let us execute this. your pitch to Janice is, hey, man, we're going to take these things that don't help you at all right now. Like, they help us as an organization, but they don't help you. And we're going to go out and trade them for pieces that help you. And so that, I'm just saying those are two separate conversations, right?

Whether it's smart by Milwaukee or whether they had to do that to retain Janice. Yeah, but I think that you could do it in a Raupolinko way, which is a very smart, calculated way of doing it and not just throwing a whole bunch of picks for Drew Holiday, who we don't even know if it's going to, we don't know if it's going to mesh right. We don't know. They're talking about a big three with him, Janice and Middleton.

I don't see that at all. I just don't, it just seemed as like a desperation move instead of a very smart move. Well, they're desperate. I mean, yes, they're desperate.

They want to keep the two-time-winning MVP. But you can be smart. But you can be smart. So what would you have had, what would you have had them do? Throw out a little scenario for me. Because I could agree with it. I mean,

I might, talk to me. I think that they could have, they didn't have to throw that many picks at Drew Holiday, is all I'm saying. They didn't have to throw that many, they didn't have to just give New Orleans a future like that on somebody that borderline All-Star maybe, you know what I mean?

All right, so, Ben, let me ask you a question. I'll pose the question to you. David Griffin has told you, this is what it costs to get Drew Holiday. And I'm done talking. Like, that's it. You call me if you want the deal. And you get back into the office and you're like, guys, listen, we don't want to pay that for Drew Holiday.

It is fiscally irresponsible. We can't do this. But if we don't, we're going to lose Janus. What is Logan Murdoch do? I mean, you got to do what you got to do, man, I guess. I mean, yes, I feel you on that. Yes, yes. True indeed.

If Janice says push the button, then push the button. But I just think there's better ways of using your resources. all I'm saying. I can agree with that. Right. And there was the other thing that happened with the, like, so the bucks also had, it seemed like a chill free agency after that Drew Holiday situation. And then they go with, they try to get bogged down by Yanovitch and a sign and trade with Sacramento. And apparently, but, Bodianovist didn't even agree to the deal. Like, he was like, I don't, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't even sign this deal. I didn't even agree to it. You guys are already putting me in a sign and trade. Chill, chill, chill, chill. Wait, what's going on? That was pretty bizarre. That's messy. That was very messy. Have you seen anything like that?

I mean, I'm sure you have. Have you seen anything like that? I'm trying to think off the top of my head where someone... No, I mean, I've seen the Morris situation in, you know, where was he going to San Antonio? And then they thought that was done. They had agreed to it. And then he skipped out and went to New York. Like, that's those type of...

You've seen that before, even that's rare. I can't remember a reported sign and trade that came down because to your point, like when they got, I actually really think Drew Holiday is really, really good. And I know David Griffin, because I've talked to David Griffin a lot about him at least last year, he thinks he's fantastic. And he wouldn't have parted unless he got the hall that he got in return. But when Milwaukee was reported to have gotten Drew Holiday and Bogdanovich, I was like, oh shit. Yeah, okay, we got it. We got action. Like I really think that's. stuff, you know, with Chris Middleton, I think you really have something, uh, cooking and taking them to the next level. Uh, and then when it fell apart, it allows us to sit back and be like, yo, that's some bullshit what they did for Drew Holiday. And, you know, it even got messier when Bogdanovich didn't sign. So they certainly weren't executing, um, cleanly, if you will. Yeah. And I mean, it was, if they don't get Boganovich, it's their nod, if the deal is out, he's, he signed an offer shoot with, uh, Atlanta. So it's either between

Atlanta and Sacramento. If these signs that obviously we're talking in a different conversation right now, I still think that they're, we're going to get to this contender talk in a second, but I still think that they're right up there. Another team

was, who I don't necessarily think got better, was the Clippers. The Clippers lost my, you think, the Clippers lost Montres-Herald. I mean, they basically swapped Montres-Harrow for for for for um for abacca but lost out on rijon rondo they lost out on rijon rondo who was a target of theirs right and did they get better i don't i mean not appreciably i mean Luke canard for

landry shamit right and then and then um surge abaca who is a better fit offensively than then he's a better fit offensively than montres harrow um you know you can play him with zooboc if you wanted to go really big because he could stretch the floor like he's, I don't know, like 38% or 36% three-point shooter. You know, so theoretically you could do that. And his best position is at the five. So when you scale down, so I think he's a better fit. But I don't, I don't know, to your point, I don't think that they got appreciably better.

I don't. Was this, was this the off-season? Because PG and Kawhi are effectively on, they're on a contract year right now. So they have all the pressure. Is this the, is this the kind of off-season you'd like to see if you're too, best players are, couldn't test free agency after this summer? I mean, after this season? Nope. Like if you were, nope. If you were,

you're, you're having the exact, like, probably opposite reaction to your free agency if you're Kawhi and Paul George, as Janus is, right? Janus, whether, whether you're sitting there saying, damn, bro, like, they, they spent a lot of draft capital to get, you're like, hey, this team's going to, they'll move, they'll move Earth to try to give me to stay here and put the pieces around me. The kawai and them, you're probably sitting back like, oh, eh, all right.

I mean, yeah. I mean, you know, I got my friend. My homie's here. Serge is here. But like, yeah, yeah. You ever seen, like, the emoji movie, though? I watch a lot of kids movies because, you know, we got the kids. You ever seen the emoji movie?

No. Buddy's whole schick, he was me. That was who he was. Oh, he was a me emoji? He was the meh emoji. So, like, you're fucking man. You're like, meh. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially when the Lakers do what they do. Like they already, let's say you consider yourself like an equal team to the Lakers if you're the Clippers. Like what happened with Denver was some bullshit. If we had got to the Lakers, it would have been a seven game knockdown, drag out series. Like we would have beat them in seven. And then you're basically like even slightly better. But when the Lakers go out and do what they did in free agency and you're sitting there,

across town as the clippers looking at what you did. It's like Harlem Knights, bro. In the scene where them boys are like letting off, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and the one dude hops up with the little like six shooter and you hear, pow. Oh, like Harlem Knights. Like Harlem Knights. Right, like Harlem Knights.

And my man pops up again with the. Ha! I don't know, man. I don't know what's going. Like, I try to curtail my clipper slander, man, but I just don't get it. There's nothing that is inspiring about this, right? Like there's, I don't know, man. I don't, I don't see them.

I don't see anything like really just, just happening. I'm going to give you out some names, throw some names out to you. This is a contender or not. And you're going to tell me if it's a contender or not, the Lakers. Contender. The rich get richer. Yes. Back-to-back championships looks like on the way right now.

Bucks. Yeah. Yeah, I think they're a contender every year. you got Janice there, I think. Yeah, I think they're a contender. The Nets. Yes. I like Landry-Shammett for them and K.D. and Kyrie.

I don't know. That's a better answer. That's a better answer. I don't know. Because if Kevin's 100% healthy, hell yes, they're a contender. But he's also going through the most, the worst injury you can have in the league, right? or one of the worst you can have in the league. I think he has the game to overcome that.

But he's going to have to show me, and he's going to have to show the league. I think that's fair, bro. I think that's fair. So the answer is if he is healthy, let's qualify it with that. Yes. If he's a shell of former self.

And if him and Kyrie can coexist. We have not seen that yet. We have not seen that yet. Fair as well, but I think they work that out. I think the two of them, there are enough balls. I think enough shots. are going to go up. The pace is going to be as such where they can co-exist. But you are correct, again, I will say that. What if in some way, and I don't think this is going to happen,

I don't think this is going to happen, but if James Hardin becomes a net, does that make them a contender? Or does that make them regress? Listen, this is slightly contradictory to what I had said before. But I think when you put that much talent together, you're going to be a contender. It's just going to be hard not to. I don't know that they win it. Right? Like, I think ultimately they don't win it. But when you put three guys like that on a team, you're

going to win an assload of games, Logan. Like, you're just going to win games. I feel you on the talent thing. There's only one basketball. We'll see. And for the record, I don't think that the James Hardin trade is going to happen anytime soon. Right. But I think they're a contender with or without them.

Or not with or without him. I think they're contender with him. The jury is still out without them. Clippers. Yeah Yeah, a contender You're, I mean This year was a little funky for them Man, like as much as we kill them

The Bubbles certainly didn't do them any favors And while they didn't get exponentially better I do think that there's a little bit better Of a fit there with Ibaka I think they'll be all right Philadelphia 76ers It's a tough one Who did they sign?

Forgive me, who did we get in Philly by way of free agency. No, they got rid of Horford. Yeah, addition by subtraction to some degree. Doc Rivers is going to help at least theoretically get Tobias Harris, the best out of Tobias Harris, because they paid him an assload of bread. Who would they pick up? And Tobias played for Doc last year when he got the bread.

Right, right, right. Yeah, he got the most out of them. I don't know that they're the top of the list of contenders, but he still got Ben Simmons, Joel Embed. Oh, they picked up Seth Curry. I think... They picked up a lot of shooters. Yeah, they started going after the guys

that they need to put around, you know... They got Danny Green. Danny Green. Yeah, I put him in the contender category. Seth Curry. Maybe not at the top of my list. Yeah. Yeah.

Dwight Howard. By the way, Dwight Howard, yeah. Did you see the Dwight Howard free agency thing, right? Did you see that? You're not on Twitter. I don't know if you saw how... Like, we got to have...

We got to appreciate how wild that was. My man's... He announces that he's going with the last. Lakers, right? Sean sends a tweet that he's league sources to say he's going to Lakers. He tweets, I'm coming back to Los Angeles, to the purple and gold.

Delete his tweet, deletes his Twitter, and then a few hours later says, agrees to a deal with the sixers. Yeah, that's wild. He said there was miscommunication. He said there was miscommunication. Like, he thought that there was going to be an offer from the Lakers and the Lakers didn't

offer him. So he thought the offer and it was like a, kind of a deal in principle. Chris Haynes from Yahoo Sports has a whole scoop. He's checked that out. But it seemed like that he was, he got, like, he thought he was going to get an offer. Like, just said, well, I'm going to announce this.

Got a call like, hey, bro, check this out. It's not. It ain't official yet, bro. And then goes to the Sixers. He's like, no, we got our eyes on Mark a soul. You got chill, bro. Pump the brakes. Pump the brakes.

That was hilarious. We'll see what happens. That's true. I mean, it's, for me, it sounds about right for Dwight exit. Right. It was a true Dwight exit. You know, you want a tip. You say you're coming back.

You say you're coming back, then don't come back. With that being said, the Sixers are our contender. The last one, and this is a wild card. The Golden State Warriors. Nah. Nah, nah. Not a contender. bro. Like, good story, good team probably will exceed expectations, but I don't know that you're true contenders.

I just want to say that, I just want to say, I believe, we're talking about this after Clay Thompson has torn his Achilles. He's out for the season. They made some nice moves. They got Kelly Ubre in a trade, you know, they got, um, yeah, Ken Baysmore. You know, they got, but they're still small. They, they, they're starting center for all intents of purposes is going to be a 19-year-old that's played like four, James Weissman, who's played like four games in the past two years, and one of those was a high school all-star game.

Right, right. So I don't see that. I think even if Clay was there, I don't know if they're a contender, because they're front court. You talk about, we've seen, we saw how you won a championship in today's NBA, and that's just with size and the warriors just don't have size.

I want to take this opportunity to plug a story that I did You guys go check that on in the ringer. I talk to Steve Kerr and about this. And he says that we have to adapt. He thinks that they can be good, but they have to find a new way to be good. It's not going to be the way that it has been, you know?

And, you know, we'll see. I don't think they're a contender to the Rajah. I think that there's a new normal in Golden State. I think that that rain is over right now. I think that it's over. Yeah. I agree with you. They have to completely reinvent who they are.

So I agree with Steve Kurt, too. Equally big story for me is Clay Thompson and the question of whether we've seen like the end of Clay Thompson as we know him, right? Like, do you know what I mean? And I hate to say that. But I, that is a catastrophic injury, man. You alluded to it when we were talking about Kevin Durant. You tear that Achilles. And we can make the argument that like he don't play above the rim that.

much and all of that. You still have lift on your jump shot, man. Like you're, you know, when he moves perpetually throughout a game, like all of that is affected by an Achilles. And I'm not even talking about, you know, the ACL that he tore, you know, before that. It's just, it's super sad, man. I'm a Clay fan. And I do think that the window there in, in Golden State is closed. And I hope that Clay comes back and looks like, like, I don't know, 85% of himself. But I think that's wishful thinking, bro. I think what is good with him I think that would bode well is that he's a shooter

you know what I mean? He's going to, I don't think he's ever going to lose that jump shot ever. And if you just stick him in the corner, he's better than 95% of the rest of the league in terms of shooting.

Yeah, but that's not him though. Yeah. I mean, if we're talking about, it's coming off screens. It's, it's not, it's, you're not asking Clay Thompson to be a playmaker. You're not.

No, you're not. You're not. But what I'm saying is like as a guy, I didn't play make, but, you know, there were times in my career, like in Phoenix, I stood in the corner, right? But like when I went to Charlotte, we didn't have Steve Nash's and those guys. So Larry Brown used to run me off of all kind of shit like he used to run Rip Hamilton off of, right? And, you know, I like to play like that too. I just wasn't the way I played in Phoenix. And so that requires a lot of legs, bro. It does. It requires a lot of, you know, legs to do that. And so all I'm saying is he's going to be a different. Clay Thompson. He could still be, and I hope he's still really good. He's going to be different, though, that's for sure. I feel terrible for Clay, because, you know, I saw him this summer, and I saw him when I was just going to the deli, getting some sandwiches, and, you know, you see that, you see him. I was like, hey, Clay, how are you doing? Because, you know, the first thing you see when you see it, how are you doing? And he was just so excited. He's like, I'm, I'm busting Steve, I'm busting Steph's ass. He's shifty.

We're doing good. We're working out. I'm feeling good, man. D feels great. He was really excited. He was so excited to get back, you know? And this was back in July. And to see him just not being able to do that.

And there was a, you know, the Warriors held out hope that this was a stopgap year. Like, you know, we bring the band back together. We'll be right back in the thinking of things. And I think the way the schedule was set up, They had so much rest to their core guys. They could have made a run. This was a team that could have gotten out fast with the Lakers, you know, resting and, you know, the Nuggets going deep into the playoffs and the Clippers going deep into the playoffs. They could have gotten a hold and they still probably, you know, they could still do good before we, you know, get back to the mean.

But it's a tough blow to see a guy like this who wanted to get back, worked hard to get back. worked hard to get back, has not, before this stretch wasn't a very injured player. Right. And to see that just sucks. Really, really sucks. And you just, you know, I listen, I, again, I'm a Clay fan, so I'm pulling for them. It's just one of those injuries, Logan. Like, I can't, I can't say that enough, man.

Like, that's not, ACLs, people come back and they look stronger. I've never heard to somebody saying they tore their Achilles and they came back and felt stronger after it. I've just never heard that. I did want to ask you, I want to ask you one other team, though, like about contenders, and it might be premature, but I do think it's worth to ask.

The Phoenix Suns, like, are, like... Okay, with this Homer-ass pick, man. No, no, no, no. Yeah, but I mean, you know, in fairness, they were the best team in the bubble, probably pre-playoffs. They were the hottest team, at least. And you go out and you add Chris Paul,

and then you start getting pieces. you got Crowder coming over from the heat. Those are good. Those type of pieces are what ultimately get you over to hump, right? Like those guys that have been in those wars, those battles will hold you down and supplement your stars. Have they at least taken a step into the conversation? Okay, so we talked about this.

We talked to Chris Ryan last week about this. And I see them as a six seed. I don't see them as somebody that's going to go to the... They're a dangerous sixth seed who might get to that point, who might get to, might scare some folks, but I don't see them as a contender to somebody that would say, oh, pencil them into the Western Conference Finals. I think they're doing good,

and I think the fact that we're even having this conversation of them being a playoff contender, contending for the playoffs, that's a win. So win. So win for your guy James Jones. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's a win.

James Jubes. That's Jubes. bro. Hey, his license plate was Jay Hoops. Like when he got to Phoenix, he called him J. Joops. Joubs. Joubs. A, big win for Joubs. And what about Denver, dog? Talk to me about Denver real quick now. Denver's a contender. Absolutely. Absolutely a contender. We saw that they are intact. They have Yokich played like an MVP candidate in stretches last season. Absolutely a contender. I would not be surprised to see them in the Western Conference finals again. No fear of like some of that front court depth and stuff with Plumley and, and, uh, and, uh, Grant, uh, and, and Jeremy Grant and Craig and all of those cats moving on, like just some,

I mean, I know you got Porter Jr. behind them and bowl bowl and all of those cats, but no, no, no even fear for chemistry issues there. I see them in the top. I see them in the top. I see them as a top four team. I bet that. Still. All right. Let's get to real one of the week. Roger.

Yeah. This is a segment where we talk about someone, an entity, an organization that is exemplified all the characteristics that could come on this show to be a real one. Who is your real one of the week, Roger Bell? So my real one of the week, man, I was struggling. I think I just came up with it right now. But it is going to be a team. It's going to be the Tennessee Titans.

Did you see what they did going into Baltimore yesterday, right? Now Baltimore is, yeah, Baltimore is like under hardball, we're tough. You think of the old Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, bullies on the block type of defensive, punch you in the mouth type of team. Those cats went right out, like stomped on the logo, like scratched it up with their cleats, and then turn around and bust Baltimore's ass in an overtime game by just bullying them. Like Brown taking five defenders into the end zone, like taking Patrick Queen for a 10-yard ride into the end zone. Like, that shit don't happen to linebackers. And then Derek Henry just in overtime, breaking loose for, what, 30 yards and the touchdown to win the game? Like, real ones, Tennessee Titans.

And Vrable, Vrable out at half field, like, oh, you don't want to shake my hand, hardball? Fuck you. Straight real one. You love that energy, huh? Straight, we're a one. All right. I'm going to keep a football, and it hurts to say this real one. Patrick Mahomes.

Real one. Facts. So I have this, I have this, like. love-hate relationship with the Raiders right now. I don't know how to root for them. Like, last night when Derek Carr hit Whitten in the end zone, I was a Raider fan again for like a whole five minutes. I was like, I'm in.

They're not going to win the division, but they're going to make noise in the postseason. I can talk myself into this. This is the championship that they're going to win, but they should have won for Oakland, but it's cool. They're going to figure it out in Vegas. All this is going through my mind.

I'm looking at old pictures of myself in Raiders gear, and maybe I'll post it. Like, I don't know. I'm just like, oh, I'll do this. And then Patrick Mahomes just sticks, just takes my heart out and just stomps it surgically. And by the end of that drive, I was like, fuck the Raiders. That's what he did to me. That's what he did.

Patrick Mahomes, real one. Any time, it's just, it's a treat to watch him play. It's a treat to watch him play quarterback. And he's magic. He's magic. He just, he bawled out something serious. It was sick. man, Patrick Mahomes,

real one of the week. It's a good show today, man. It's cool, man. It's nice to get back in the lab with you, man. Thanksgiving coming up, you know what I mean? Happy Thanksgiving. To all the people, to all my folks, you know what I'm saying? Hey, favorite Thanksgiving food.

You don't want to do that. I have a hot take. Oh, shit. Go ahead. I think Thanksgiving food is trash and it's overrated. Damn. That's how you go, that's how you go end the show? You know what?

Best thing you can get for Thanksgiving is take out. That's not a Thanksgiving food. Not a fan Thanksgiving food. I'm going to leave it right there. Just leave it. I mean, I don't. But happy Thanksgiving to all my people.

And make sure you guys be safe. You know what I mean? Because a lot of people are gathering. There's going to be a lot of clusters. Make sure you masked up. Make sure you're safe around your loved ones. Yeah, no doubt. Keep them numbers down, people.

Keep them numbers down. Also, check out before we go, check out all the shows. Check out the mismatch on the ring of. NBA feed. Check out the group chat on the ringer NBA feed. Check out R2C2. My man, C-C-2, my man, C-C-Sabathia, check out the NFL, the ringer NFL show. And check that on Spotify. And wherever you get your podcast, we'll see you next week. Happy Thanksgiving. Boom.