The Ringer NBA Show - While You Were Making Fake Giannis Trades: The Feisty Mavs, Deni’s Double Leap, and More. Plus, Who’s Cup Tough? | Group Chat

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Justin, Rob, and J. Kyle Mann are back and here to talk about some players and teams that may have flown under the radar while the frenzy of Giannis Antetokounmpo trade news was going around. Then, they wrap up by previewing the quarterfinals of the NBA Cup. (00:00) Intro (5:43) Ryan Nembhard(18:10) Deni Avdija(33:33) Nickeil Alexander-Walker (44:18) Pat Spencer(56:23) Spurs(1:03:46) Noah Clowney(1:17:20) NBA Cup Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and J. Kyle Mann Video Producer: Victoria Valencia Audio Producer: Isaiah Blakely Additional Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Social: Isaiah Blakely and Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me, Rob Mahoney and back from his one game suspension from throwing a ball at Rob. Jay Kyle, man. What's up, Kyle? Definitely not above throwing a ball at Rob. I would do it if the circumstance is called for it. I believe it. Honestly, it's never really been in doubt. Does the Desmond Bain throw count as a throw or is that just like a full on volleyball spike? Is he like an official libero at this point? what's going on with him? Like, just in his life,

I don't know what is sitting with him that is like eating at him every day to the point that he just wants to hurl basketballs at people. I say that and I also say out of the other side of my mouth, I don't really understand why it's a technical foul. I think you should be able to throw a basketball really hard at somebody on the court and it should be frowned upon. We all get mad about it,

but should there be like actual judicial action as a result? I don't believe in that. Can I do that here? Like, can I throw a ball at you? I'm not saying there'll be no consequences. I'm saying you may or you won't get fired, but I'll be mad. What if like a fervo? I mean, that too.

Yeah. You know like a furbo camera has like you could just like spit out treats when when you have like you hit a button? What if I had one of those just attached it to your set up there? Well, that's just too much power. I just don't trust you with any kind of discretion to that extent. So absolutely not. But I appreciate you at least asking first.

All right. Let's get on to the. matter at hand here. We're going to talk some cup stuff because the next round, the first round, what are we even calling it? The quarterfinals. Yeah, it's the quarterfinals. Okay. The quarterfinals of the cup are upon us this week. So we're going to get us, us ready and also you at home, ready for some action there. But what we're going to do today is we are going to walk through some stuff that's been percolating while the public at large, and definitely not us, have been making a whole ton of fake Janus Intetacumpo trades. Kyle, we talked about this on Wednesday.

day. We kind of missed the actual big news nugget because we talked with Chris about Janus and basically scrubbing his his Instagram and his Twitter, which seemed like a precursor to what ultimately ended up happening. The news, but not really news, that they're going to have a discussion maybe down the road and maybe figure something out. Did you have any just general thoughts about that whole situation? Do you have any fake Janus trades you want to get off your chest? It's the Jason Alexander Kerb meeting about a meeting thing. I don't know if you guys are curb fans. No, I mean, I did the trade machine for probably like half a day until like lunchtime. I was just like, all right, I'm sick. Because there's really only you start thinking about like what

really serves the bucks. Everybody kept saying like, well, it's going to be the nukes. Go to be the nukes. I'm like, I just don't. What is it? Why would I deal with the Knicks if I were the bucks? Like they have nothing to offer me. It seemed like it was pretty much two teams and, you know, do the spurs feel motivated to do it. I know we're going to be talking more about the spurs. The Hawks was the one that I like the best. I'm either trying to get Jalen Johnson to come home to Milwaukee or I'm trying to get that NOLA pick. So those are the two things that just kind of jump to mind for me. I'm just imagining someone coming to Yannis, maybe his social team and just saying like, hey, you think we should scrub the stuff?

Because I can't imagine Yonis going through maybe late at night and just kind of like, that's a lot of effort to delete that many posts. Or maybe you have a platform to make it easier. I don't know. But yeah, that's kind of work sitting with Yonis right now. Yeah, scrubbing individual posts by individual posts, you're right, is probably a little more legwork than we would ascribe to Janus for something like that. But this is why you have people. Justin, this is why you have two executive assistants so that you don't have to scrub your own social media. There's apparently like some sort of platform or something that goes and deletes your tweets after a certain amount of time. And I spent all of 10 seconds looking for it once and I couldn't figure it out and I just kind of let it go. So if anyone really wants to dig into my archives to find some salacious takes about like, I don't know, Tim Frazier or something, you're more than welcome to. But you're right, because the Twitter one was he got rid of like up in, like pretty much everything until before 2021 or like up until 2021. And then in Instagram, it was just a little bit more selective. And so it really took like a

fine editor to go through and like craft his new persona on social media. I mean, maybe just him showing his age in general. The fact that Janus is manipulating the grid on Instagram at all speaks to the fact that he's truly one of us, truly a millennial, whether he accepts it or not. All right. So those are our Yonah's takes. Why don't we take a break quickly and then we'll get into some other stuff going around the NBA. The Ringer NBA show is presented by Fandall.

Fandall's got it all. Sam game parlay's quick bets for jumping in live and your way so you could build the bet that fits your play. Plus, don't miss out on holiday offers and surprises all month long. Download the Fandle app or head to fandle.com slash ringer MBA to get started, 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus in present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming, gambling problem, call 1,800 gambler, or visit RG-Helpshelp.com. Call 188-789-777 or visit cpg.org slash chat in Connecticut. So, oddly enough, I think we're going to go to the Dallas Mavericks first in order to kick

this off. So, Kyle, do you want to go with one of your things you brought here? Yeah, we can. I think this sort of jumps off, two of mine actually jump off. into a broader issue that I want to bring up to you all after at the end of it or maybe in the middle of it. We'll see how we feel how it naturally goes. I want to talk about Ryan Nimhard. We were joking the other night. We were watching, you know, there's been this back and forth of like, should Cooper be playing point card? I personally thought he was going to eventually stabilize a little bit, but they pulled back on that experiment and brought in Ryan Nimhard. This is a big win for Bill, because this was one of Bill's, he just kept bringing it up. And it was

funny for me because I'd watch so much dim hard. He started out at Creighton and then, you know, moved over to Gonzaga to fall where his brother had been. He's a little bit smaller than his brother. He measured at 5-11 and barefooted at the combine. So he's about six foot, six foot and half inch. But I worried about his consistency shooting the ball coming into the league. So that's why he wasn't somebody that was really consistently on our boards and why that was my reservation with him. But he's come in and he just looks competent. You know, I think it kind of jumps off into, if this does mean something, what does it mean? I definitely think it means something for them.

I think that, you know, he has really shown a nice pace with the ball. He's really quick. But I mean, how do you all feel? I feel like his mid-range game is really good. I feel like his three looks good whenever he takes it. It's just for a guard that that's small. I worried that if he wasn't somebody that could bring a lot of uphill dribble pull-up pressure, and he was going to be forced to get his offense on the inside to kind of unlock his great passing.

To me, I was just like, is he going to just be another one of these heady college guards that doesn't translate? I think, I mean, he's clearly a heady college guard who translates to an extent. I think everything you're describing Kyle probably puts a like a hard ceiling on who he can be ultimately. He's going to be a little bit more of a basic run the offense kind of guard. But you can already see on the edges of that, if there is any advantage he'll take it. Like he will take the corner if you don't respect it. he will take the driving lane when it's there. He will make like exceedingly simple plays to the point that he's basically played

mistake-free basketball for like two weeks straight now. Ever since he got that starting job, incredibly low turnover, has barely missed any shots whatsoever. That stuff is going to equalize a little bit. But the decision-making behind that efficiency, I think is just part of who he is and certainly who he can be as a pro. Yeah. I'm surprised that they listed him at 5-11 because rarely do you get an NBA team to even go

along with that. It's usually six feet is where they start. But 5-11 even seems slightly generous because he was sizing up with Reed Shepard in that game the other night. And it seemed like Reed had a little bit of hide on him even. What's funny is- In that game, Justin, Reed yammed in a way I don't think I've ever seen him yam before. I honestly, like, true-on-am?

Full-on-on-yang. Look, was it a boof? What's the distinction between boof and yam in your eyes? Was it a boom-chakalaka? I would say a boof is a little bit more emphasis. I would go as far as boom shock a lock. I think he got up there. He cocked it back.

He had like he had the verticality. Reed Shepard just entering a different stratosphere than what I could expect. Yeah. But like obviously the size is a concern. And to that point like the three point shot has been on. And yes, the ball movement has been great. And it's great to see the Mavs playing with someone who could actually get other guys involved. They look like an actual NBA team out there.

So far this season, he has taken three total free throws the entire season. And even in this run since he's been starting. which has just been a six-gain sample. He's been good in it. Hasn't taken a single free throw. So, you know, he's doing well at what they're asking him to do, though, Kyle. And so that's the start. Yeah, there's a lane that I wanted to ask you all about that.

I feel like Chris Paul, like, created a whole necessary skill set when he created that drifting to the right elbow jumper. And I think Nimhart is incredible at it. I had written down here. He's 13 for 18 on that shot this year. That's insane. coming off of ball screens though I think something that works in his advantage is you know Anthony Davis Daniel Gafford lively when he's going to be there but they just have these

crazy exceptional I mean in terms of lob threats they probably have the best wealth of that in the league I would say and you can see we're not having a guard is just sort of a way to undermine the thing that you have that no one else has so when he comes off of that ball screen you'll just watch you know the screener defender hang back where they're like I I got to keep now on Anthony Davis. And Nimhard just uses that little space to his advantage. And he goes and snicks back and hits that shot a ton. So it's just a little weapon.

I guess kind of what it jumps to for me is, you know, I don't think that the Mavs have found their starting point guard. I think that what they have found is somebody that can, you know, two minutes while Kyrie gets right when he gets back. And I think that that's not nothing. That's something. And he looks, he never looks hurried.

That's a big thing with guards. I never see him looking sped up when he's out there. Doesn't look sped up. Doesn't look like he's searching for his own thing. Like he's always participating in something that's bigger than himself in a way that's really healthy for where the Mavs are right now. I think the combination of him playing more and, to be honest, the stretch where Lively has been out,

as you mentioned, Kyle and Gafford in and out of the lineup. So AD has to play the five has kind of backdoored the Mavs into ultimately what is one of their best looks, which is you have Cooper out there, you have PJ Washington and Najee Marshall out there. That's a lot of big, skilled, rangey guys on the wing, and now you have a real table setter, and you have an actual big,

and it's a lineup that makes sense, even if the Mavs and Anthony Davis, honestly, don't necessarily prefer it that way. But it's not an accident that, as the Mavs have put Ryan Nemhardt in this role, and as they have gone to one big, all of a sudden, they're now actually scoring in the paint. And if you looked at them early in the season,

they were playing massive lineups that weren't scoring inside at all, because there was no space, and there was no rhythm. There was like no actual way to get to the basket to score efficiently. Now you have all of these ways to actually knife inside

and create that space and Cooper is transformed as a result. Najee Marshall looks unlocked in a totally different way. Like all of these pieces are falling into place. I think starting with just having them hard on the ball. Yeah, the lineups looks so like reasonable and sensible that I'm almost wondering why it took this long

for them to get to this point. Perhaps it is what you're saying, Rob, that they just ran out of centers that they actually had to play Anthony Davis at center. On the other hand, like, what didn't they see in the first five game sample or even just like the couple of games they tried out flag at point guard or even tried DeAngelo Russell where they didn't fall back into this sort of setup? Because it just looks so normal and they've been successful as a result.

I almost wonder if Jason Kidd was like maybe silently trying to tank Nico out of town or something because this was right there for them the entire time. That might be giving the whole situation too much credit. I don't think it's a no-brainer to say, hey, we should start our undrafted point guard, even if it's someone with the college career that Ryan Nemhard had. And really, it's the combination of Nemhart. And I would even say to a degree Brandon Williams is coming off the bench and giving them some really good minutes at the point, too.

Both of those guys are notably not DeAngelo Russell, and they are notably not Cooper Flag, who I'm with you, Kyle, that I think there's clear benefits to playing Cooper in that role early. And ultimately, he probably would have found his footing. But why make him do that when you can move him off the ball? Why make him do that when now by playing him more on the wing, you get all this good, like, give and go stuff between him and the guards. Like, there's so many other elements to the offense for him to tap into and get into his mid-range stuff more specifically without having to just, like,

pound the ball into the court for eight seconds to make it happen. So do we not think that he's a starter long-term, though? Because obviously, Kyrie is a different animal, like when he's available, and if he's still on the team, I assume they'll just toggle him back in. But let's say in a world where you're building for the future, You're making trades so you're prioritizing Cooper. Isn't that Mnheimhard just like too small to play starting point card? I think he would just pose the problems that we were talking about.

And defensively, he's going to get picked on for the size thing if they ever get into serious basketball situations. The great thing for him, though, is that, you know, I know we're going to be talking about another big, well, another Western Conference team here in a minute. I just, I think they're going to dare him to shoot in a way. Like the types of threes that he makes are a little more. stationary a lot of the time. He didn't have a crazy volume for somebody that was on ball as much as he was at Gonzaga. They were sort of a get it inside type team kick it out. He'd hit open threes. But a lot of what drove my sort of skepticism was I had seen him in big games. I had seen teams go zone on him and dare him to take some of those shots and it just didn't go well. But it also is, you know,

just possible that the Nimhar brothers are very obsessive workers. So it's very possible that he just got better. I wanted to tee this into another conversation, though. Just a broader, is this anything? I didn't prep you all for this. Have you noticed how many teams in the league are struggling with having a primary ball handler right now? Milwaukee, Golden State, Dallas, Memphis, Portland, Indiana. There are a lot of teams out there that are just like, we need somebody to steer this ship. And it made me wonder, my hypothesis was, we've just rung our hands over and over and over again about how it's a big league, you know, Katie even like hilariously had that. He loves Reed Shepherd, but he had that clip where it's like, if you're 6-1, you can't play

in the league. We're just like, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. So we build this league that's gigantic. And all of a sudden, we're like, man, we need somebody to come in here and hold a clipboard and like run these offenses. It's like, I don't know. Is that something? Is that crazy?

Because it is or is it just a pure, just, I don't know. It just seems like the ball handler depth is like not where it normally is. Well, if you build your team around a bigger ball handler, then you need your guards to do other things. And so, like, for instance, it's nice to have a Ryan Rollins, but, like, for the most part, you're dealing more with Kevin Porter Jr. types where they're just combo guards

because you need them to defend and shoot. Would be my guess, yeah. DeAngelo, Jane Harding. I mean, yeah. If only Kevin Porter, Jr. could do one of those two things, but alas, he has come in to steal minutes from Ryan Rollins in the midst of all this bucks madness. But I agree with you.

Like, there's a weird developmental track happening there where for a couple years, it will become very in vogue. for pro guards to be channeled a certain way. In this case, like, can you be the supplement to a Luca Donchich? Can you be the supplement to a James Harden or a LeBron James or a Kate Cunningham or go down the line, whoever you want to look at? And then all of a sudden you have to completely gear shift.

And teams do this too, because ultimately the Mavs came to the conclusion before they decided to self-deinate that maybe the ideal pairing for Luka is someone like Kyrie. Maybe it is someone who can relieve some of that ball handling pressure. But at the same time, you make that decision as a team or the league kind of trends that way. And then there's been guards who've been spending the last three or four years trying to figure out how to be like good upstanding citizens as role players. And where that leaves everybody is like the whiplash of the development of the sport is so hard to keep up with if you're just a person trying to find your footing in the league. And so there's a lower to middle class,

I say in like an income level in terms of like the guys who would be like good bench players or fringe starters who are looking for a case to stay in the league. I think those are the guys who get kind of caught in all that. I mean, it's tough to just build multi-track different teams. Like the only teams that have the luxury to do so are some of the best teams in the league right now because they have the versatility in order to plug and match up against virtually anyone if they even really need to. And so it's tough. If you're the Mavs, I think you're just looking for any semblance of consistency or any sort of cohesion or vision.

And so the fact that they've stumbled upon something that actually looks like NBA basketball, I mean, I think their recent stretch where they won every game except for getting just absolutely blown off the floor in Oklahoma City. I think it's a credit to that. They look pretty good as long as AD's going to be out there, as long as Cooper is doing his in-between stuff. And so I'll be honest,

I gravitate toward them on the dial now. They're now like a league pass team because there's enough there where there's enough of a floor you can explore some of these young fun guys. Young fun team actually scoring, actually having some kind of coherent offense. This is bare minimum stuff.

Like that's really all you need to make a watchable team. And also one that's like mildly successful. I don't think the Mavs are really challenging some of the best teams in the league, although they did really stick it to a pretty short-handed Rockets team. Like those are the wins you need to kind of build confidence in this sort of model. So it's good to see it certainly after the way they started. Speaking of another young fun team, let's talk about the Portland Trailblazers.

Yeah. And specifically, we need to talk about Denny Obdia. And this is where I've written down in my notes to pause for Snyde commentary. So please go ahead. I mean, I feel like you contrive this whole bit just so we could get here. Is that not what happened? Was this entire episode reverse engineered so you could talk about Deniavdia? No, I actually stopped myself from trying to insert the Blazers into this.

Because if anything, like in years past... But you didn't stop yourself because we're here. Well, I think it's gotten to the point where it deserves attention and discussion because, like... And if anything, maybe we should have talked about it sooner, but we don't talk about this because there's this like stigua attached to any time we bring up the Blazers. But like his play, I would assume like deserves like some sort of reconsideration

because we did this a couple episodes ago. And I think that the league as a whole is really starting to reconsider him as like a all-star caliber sort of guy. But I remember last time we talked about it, I was like, hey, maybe he's a number two on a really good team. I'm starting to wonder if we got a superstar in our midst,

my friend. I mean, currently he's the number one on a quite bad team. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm not quite bad. I mean, in their present form, right? In the form that is allowing him, we should say Denny Avdi over the last five games, 31, nine assists and ten rebounds a game.

Out of his mind right now. Working with total freedom, scoring in ways that he's never really scored before or allowed himself to score before. It's been incredibly scintillating. If Denny Avdiah is forced to be that guy for you, and frankly, I'm not even sure he wants to be, is that a good thing? Do you want him having this much responsibility, Justin, or has this stretch kind of illustrated some of why you want him to be overqualified

in a secondary or tertiary role? So I've never made a TikTok. I never really wanted to make a TikTok, but I found myself Googling last night or the night before, how do you make a TikTok? Because I actually don't know how you stitch the videos together in order to do some of like the meme things that people have going around here. And the one in particular that I really like zeroed in on,

I'm sure you guys have seen it at this point, is the one where it's like, when you're 20, you got to take the ride because you're going to appreciate it down the road. And then the music kicks in. It's like the Silver Springs mix where it's like, time cast a spill on you, that one. You know exactly what I'm talking about. I have no idea what a meme you're talking about. But I like hearing you describe memes. Just just, just needs his tools. Is it considered a meme or like a viral video? Viral video makes me sound even older. Yeah, you're asking the wrong guys. Kyle, are you, are you up on your TikTok? spiraling into

well okay the reason why I wanted to do it was I was going to do one for me going to Portland but when when Silver Springs kicked in it was going to be like because you're going to miss out on a golden opportunity but it's just going to be Denny Obdia

getting to the line so it's like time test is spell and then it's like Deni Avdiya going to the line you've spent too much time alone in the Portland air this is why we don't let you talk about the Blazers like we're halfway through this, not even halfway through this pod, and you're making Denny

Avdiya free throw fan cams. Like, I don't know why you're like this. If someone wants to make it for me, I'm sure it will do numbers. So, um, well, I bring up, fan boyness, just, I'm always just amazed at your fan boy, you're, you're just adopted fan boyness. You're so, you're so

fervent, man. You kind of seem like somebody who might like, like I'm getting suspicious that you're somebody who might like join a cult. I'm a little worried. I'm sure you already did. I'm sure you're out there in the forest. Uh, so. I have some options at hand. No, what's odd is, like, I typically am probably tougher on the teams in my life than I am over the moon on.

And I'd like to think that, like, I have a good sense of these things. Like, I think we pushed back a lot on the Tumani Expressway last year, but that one ultimately ended up being somewhat true. It hasn't had a particularly good season this year. But I kind of see Denny taking another leap on top of the leap. This is perhaps a double leap, if you were, because there's just a couple indicators that I think have been pretty special thus far. and one is obviously the free throws that he's generating. So right now before today's game,

they're ultimately, I think, as we're recording this, going to lose to the Memphis Grizzlies in part because they had to start Young Hanson and City Sosco, who is a two-way guy. City edition. Yeah. They do call him Rip City, which I think is kind of fine. Honestly, that is quite good. But before this game, 9.9 free throws a game this season. Within the past decade, there have only been a couple of guys who have done, and it's all the guys you'd expect, Yonis 5, times, Embededed five times, Hardin' Four, Luca two, Shea two, and then Russ, boogie one year. And Zion, technically, this season, but he's probably not going to qualify for the games played.

And so we're talking about the best players over the past decade of NBA basketball, and Denny's right up there. And I think the more encouraging thing, Rob, is that he's using the threat of getting to the line, I think in interesting ways, and you could see him layering on top of that. I think this game was a prime example of that where he's using fakes while he gets deep into the paint. And also, I think he's using the threat of his shot more in order to get the head of steam that he typically could only get in transition. And so he's starting to show little progress on top of the progress. And so I'm starting to become a believer that there's more here.

Well, you were already a believer that there was more there. But we are along for the ride now. And I think I think we have more evidence to that point. I agree with everything you're saying. There is like an iteration on iteration on iteration thing with Denny that's really exciting, manipulating all those aspects of his game into one big snowball rolling downhill and in some ways almost literally because I would say the kind of like shining centerpiece of his game

is just how fucking relentless that guy is like he just goes goes goes all the time he's an accelerant in transition he will turn any marginal opportunity into a real one and when you have that going for you and you're using your footwork to draw fouls and then using the fouls to create footwork and then using that to create open layups

and shots for other people Like, that just gives you so much to work with. And this is where, like, I really don't think he has it in him to be this. I say this ball dominant. To just be ball dominant in general, because even as he's putting up these crazy numbers, it never feels like he's monopolizing the offense. It never feels like he is seizing control of something. There's just a lot of opportunity with the Blazers right now because of who they're playing

or in this case, like, who isn't playing. And he grabs every single marginal opportunity he can and makes something out of it in a way that not a lot of guys in the league can do, to be honest. Yeah, I mean, it's start-up, super-startum really is who you are in the paint. I think that that leads to free throw attempts. That leads to buckets in the paint. His points in the paint are way up and something that I've really liked about Denny. And it's interesting having just watched him.

It makes me feel old watching some of these guys, like go through the years. Like I just remember watching him with Tel Aviv. And he, all of the things that I was like, I'm not so sure. Like he has just gone to the moon, every single one of them. Like his pace is a ball handler. his consistency as a shooter. You could see the IQ and those things, those things, the more that they've improved,

have just kind of locked in and helped him expand. And what I really like about him is, even though his usage has continued to expand, you haven't seen him get to tunnel vision in one direction as a score. He is scoring to serve his playmaking. Like his assist percentage has just really leaped this year. And another thing that I was going to pose to you guys, I had this thought.

I feel like in terms of just narrative behavior in the NBA, I feel like there has been this readiness to dub Franz Wagner, a star in a way that has not been consistent to Denny. Like I feel like Denny, they're like the same age. And I feel like people have just kind of been like, yeah, Denny's pretty good. Franz, oh, boy. You know, I just feel like, oh, he's huge. They're like the same size.

Denny's production beats him in almost every category. I'm not dismissing, Franz. I'm just saying when you put him side by side, Denny's production looks like a star. Whether or not that's a primary in a playoff team, I don't know, but he really does affect the star. Yeah, I think it's just Denny carved out his identity in the league is more of a role player who's, it's like, oh, look at this guy guarding centers, or look at this guy developing a shot, whereas Franz was always billed as someone who could be in the star mix and probably we've

kind of anchored in that belief as a result of it. But I think you're right. And like he already, I think he has better instincts, not only as a playmaker, but also playing within the flow of the offense where Franz is a little bit more deliberate. And like, that's fine. That's just how the magic play. But like, to your point about whether or not Denny can keep this up when the cavalry comes home, I do wonder if anything, he's probably set a precedent than those guys can climb on to because the guys that are coming don't necessarily need on ball reps. I mean, Drew's going to take them. And I think they need the steadying hand. I think that's going to be a big boon to Denny. But like the guys that they need back are like Matisse Thibble, Blake Wesley,

in order to balance out the defense. And I think Denny's still going to have a showcase in that regard. And so I don't know. No mention of Scoot Henderson. What is going on? This is so bizarre. He's got out of sight out of mind, unfortunately. But yeah, when Scoot comes back, he's going to be on the ball too.

But like Shaden, for instance, you would assume would glom up a lot of those possessions. He's been relegated to the second unit. In part because they need to stagger the rotations in a way that makes sense. But also because in part, he's better scoring against second unit. It's true. I think you're hitting, though, on something that's really. important with Denny, especially with the Franz comparison that we're kind of, you know, juggling around here is he's just so malleable to anything you need him to be.

Like in terms of he can have these moments where he's putting up huge numbers. Yes, if the Blazers continue to lean in that direction, I think he can do more or less some version of this, maybe not to quite the same extent. But he's not acting out of character to get anywhere here. And yet, if you did bring another superstar onto this roster, if you brought a superstar onto this roster. See? You're already going with it.

I mean, unconsciously, you've infected me. If you change the shape of the team in any way, and you can already see this with what they're doing now, like he's taken on all this

offensive responsibility, and they're taking some of the weight off of him in terms of his defensive matchup when Denny's like a good defender who, Tumani Kamaro is going to get the first line guy, but Denny could get the second line winger forward in that mix and be super competent, but if you don't want him to do that,

if you'd rather him prioritize offense, he can do it, he can score and create in all these ways. That's a really exciting piece to have as part of your team. It gives you so much room to adapt when ultimately he's either a star or he's an incredibly overqualified supporting part. And you can modulate and figure out what makes sense for your team at this second in terms of what he should be doing.

Yeah. And the way the Blazers have constructed their team is that they have a lot of these two-way wing types and they're hoping for someone to activate them all. That's kind of the logic they used in order to bring Yang in. It's also like the spot open to anybody who could show that they're capable of doing the role. Like it could be Shaden, could be Scoot, could be Star X down the road there. And so, yeah, you're probably right. Denny probably slots into something like a 1B or like he is your one,

but your guy on the ball is someone else. But I think it's also to the benefit of the entire team because if the flow is what it was earlier in the season, I think this is the type of team that can like kind of do something significant as a result of that. I did a quick back of the envelope all-MBA ballot because we just hit the quarter mark here. I want you guys to stop me when Denny is better or has had a better season thus far than one of these guys. Okay. So you're going top down and we're going to insert Denny somewhere in this conversation. Yeah.

As soon as it feels like he would have surpassed that person, that's where you're going to hit the buzzer here. So first team, I think, is pretty solid. Yokic SGA, Luca, Janice, Wembe, easy. Mitchell, Maxie, Cade Cunningham, Aunt Edwards, Jalen Brown. Okay? No question so far. Reeves, Hardin, Brunson, Schengoon. Okay, I was hoping someone to stop me by now, but I'll keep going.

Did you, are you disqualifying anybody for, like, I didn't hear Steph. Did you say Steph in there? I didn't say Steph. I forgot Steph. Okay. That's my fault. So Steph would probably be here. So you put him at Shingoon is what we've discovered.

I mean, you would say there. Schengun's been bawling out. Like he's been really good for an elite team. And honestly, you can tell with the Rockets when he doesn't play, their offense looks totally different. And frankly, like a little bit lost without him. So that's three teams right there. So he probably wouldn't make all NBA because the next level is Denny, Booker,

Lowry, Durin, Katie, Cat. It's everyone to have written down. I mean, I think he's like knocking on the door of that sort of group. And like, you know, you could look at a team and say, does this team need a Denny Avdia or a Jalen Durran more? I think that's a reasonable conversation to have, which tells you there in like a similar class of player. He's going to have an interesting All-Star case.

If he were in the Eastern Conference, maybe he would make it. Or frankly, if he were in an American player, given the format of this year, maybe he would make it. I think it's tougher for the international guys, oddly enough. But he's been spectacular. And certainly it's taking exactly the kind of leap of blazers need to recontextualize everything that they're building. I also have the initials JJ written down. I don't know what that was I think.

Did you wake up in a fugue state writing about Denny and you don't remember what you wrote? I assume that's Jalen Johnson, no? Oh, Jalen Johnson. Yes, thank you. That's a good one. That's the one right there. Denny or Jalen Johnson? Okay. Where do you fall on that side?

I'm probably more of a Jalen Johnson type, but both of these guys appeal to my exact basketball sensibilities. Yeah. Yeah, like Jalen's just such a relentless bully. And it's like sort of a converted ball handler, whereas Denny was like a secondary guy who's just sort of like added the skills to shift over and be the lead guy. So they're just a little different.

I just, I was looking though. I mean, like the shooting stuff is just so crazy. Like if he's spotting up now, it's just it's cash like if it's up in the air i'm just like and that's that's a huge thing i just think that there's another there's another when you look at the way he plays there's another level i think a floor razor it's like what separates dynie from the guys that play pick and roll chess the way the other guys his size the the lucidantages or the those types of players it's like i don't know because he's got the free throws it's like does he have the crazy skip pass

stuff yet it's like it's probably not quite there he can do it sometimes but it's like on a possession to possession basis. I don't know. I'm just trying to think of what's going to help Justin be happy. And so he can just ascend up into that top 20, top 15, top 10. What will help Justin be happy is we've been going down that road for a long time, you know. Do you want to do that next? Yeah, please.

That's our next angle. How long is this pot? You know, Justin, what I do want to do next while we're talking Jalen Johnson, I want to talk Hawks with the two of you. I would like to take us down aside out of me, though. So if you want to squawk hawks, I fully support it. I had a moment in this weekend when I went to go check the Hawks Wizards box score as one does on a Saturday night. I saw that Nikiel Alexander Walker had 17 points.

And my first thought was, that's weird. He only had 17 points. And my second thought was, this is where we are now, where I just fully expect him to be 20 plus on a nightly basis. And 17 is pretty good, but he is just kind of shot past pretty good into a, a role of incredible importance for a competitive team in the East and ultimately transformed from a guy who just a few years ago, two teams basically left for dead and said, we don't really want to invest in this project any longer. He found himself with the Wolves.

He now has come to Atlanta and just like really had a chance to show what he can do. And I remain beyond impressed at who he has become as a score and everything he's been able to put together so far in Atlanta. So his points per game kind of trajectory is one of my favorite thing. like if you just go through the basketball reference. So starting from his first year with the Pelicans, 5.7, 11, 10.6, and now we're getting into the mix of

where he gets tossed around a little bit, 6.2, 5.9, 8, 9.4, 20.7. This is what I'm talking about. Like, more than doubled his scoring output. And this is where I put it to the two of you. Do you see what's going on with the keel as improvement? Is he taking a leap in terms of the quality of his play?

Or was this guy there and it's just, we're stretching out the minutes, we're giving him the ball, he's more than just a designated stopper for the Hawks? It's a leap of opportunity for sure. I mean, I think this is another team with Tray being out that falls into the, you know, it's this roster,

this Hawks roster build is so interesting when you look at them. Just seeing them against the Wizards was really amusing me because it's like, they're so sinewy and long, but they all kind of, I feel like Jalen is sort of the totem of the emblem of the way that roster is built. They want these very powerful big forward types. And I think when you watch, when you watch Nicky'll play, I don't see anything that is overly forcing the issue or anything like that. He picks his spots really well. I don't know.

It's like what really were the things that caught? Because he left by choice from Minnesota, right? He was a free agent signing, right? Left by choice, but also like they couldn't afford by rule to pay him what his market value was. And so then it turned into something else. But ultimately, like, it's the best of both worlds for him here. He gets paid. He gets all of this opportunity. And that was, I think, going to be true, even if he was playing on a team that had Tray Young full time,

he was still going to be given a little bit more to do than he would with the wolves. This is a totally different thing, though. And as we've seen the Hawks sort of evolve into this more democratic model, yes, Jalen Johnson is the driver of it. He is the best player on that team. But it doesn't really work without Nikiel. And I think there's a couple of reasons why that's true. He gets them playing even faster.

And some of that is because of all the havoc he creates defensively and helps kind of the feeding frenzy between all of these ball hawking, like, steals heavy perimeter players. That is all going in his direction. He's also very, very quietly, have not heard a peep about this, just become one of the best three-point shooters at volume in basically the entire league. not just, you know, the guy coming off the bench to get a couple important shots for you.

He, over these last, like, so during this stretch where he's really, really popped off over this last six games, shooting 45% from three, overall still shooting a sterling percent for the season. He's not in the Steph class because nobody is in the Steph class, but in terms of shooting efficiency from three at volume,

he's in that next group with guys like Ant and Khan, guys like MPJ, guys like Grayson Allen, if you're that level of shooter and you're an all-around score and ball handler and you're a ball hawk on defense, you are just in a different echelon of player ultimately. And I think he has kind of introduced himself to that class. Yeah, the jump from last year to this season

just seems like more of an opportunity thing, as Kyle was saying, just stretching out the volume of what he was already doing because he was already pretty money on catch and shoot looks, 42, 43, and now 41 this year over the past three. And so he's just doing more. of that. I think the real jump is what he started as as a player to what he is now, just being like a slashing dynamic on ball score type. And I thought that's ultimately where he would net out to

being a three and D kind of like model for that and just really rationing it up to the point where it's like once Trey comes back, which I think is the big question for the Hawks, I think he fits in perfectly to the point where like I don't think Risha Shay should be starting anymore. Like I think Nikiel has pretty much cemented himself as a starter in that lineup. Yeah. Or if you want to, when everybody is healthy, play multiple bigs together, that's a decision that you could make in addition to Jalen Johnson. And in addition, but like, I ultimately, like, I just love the direction of the Hawks

with a Nikiel Alexander Walker tying it all together. And for him to like grab control of his career in that way and also grab control of kind of the like the thematic nature of a team in that way, the identity. and direction of a team. Just incredible work by him. An incredible trajectory, as you said, Justin, over like a three-year arc to become that sort of player you would invest in like this.

It's wild. His page is just so crazy for somebody that it's funny. It's funny whenever you talk to, like, you know, I try to talk to scouts about, you talk to people who make decisions about player acquisition and things like that. And you'll hear a lot of them say like, I like him. Or, you know, you'll hear people say they like them.

But then you'd be like, do you want them? Would you trade? No, no way. But I draft them? No. no way. And it's like, Nikiel had a very high baseline of like everybody liked him. It's just the, and it's crazy to see the line, the, the, the line, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the shooting. Um, I think something that is really

impressed me, you were talking with the shooting is just sort of the lateral side to side stuff has popped way more for me than in the past where he was doing a lot of more, the catch and shoot stuff like this. Um, you'll see them run those kind of flare screens with him where it's like 47, he's at 47.8% so that number matches the eyes, um, which is a great thing for a seem like this that could use the spacing and the cutting and the stuff that comes off of that. Because if you get one of these just massive long guys cutting off of the gravity that he's earning from hitting those shots, that's a boon for the. And in transition, this Hawks team is just, they're a pain, man. They are, you need some Advil after you play the Hawks for sure.

I think the big picture thing that I'm keeping an eye on, especially as the CBA starts to click in and people get used to it and some of the dynamics of it is how many other Nikiles are going to be out there from teams that are just, like they have so many guys that they can't pay them all. The Thunder are a prime example of this with some of their younger guys, but when Nikiel was squeezed out, not only because they couldn't pay him, but like because of the mechanics of the CBA and like where his contract fell in there, but also because they already are absolutely expensive, the wolves are. And so our teams that are good that can't afford like a seventh and eighth guy, are they going to be squeezed out? And are other teams going to seize upon guys that they can give.

more too because Nikiel really isn't making a ton of money for a free agent acquisition. It's $15 million, which is like starter level totally fine money. And so perhaps that's the advantage you get from cap space, not like going out and trying to procure the next superstar that hits the market. We'll see if that ends up happening. But are there guys out there that you could build into something else? Yeah. I mean, I think that number needs to be reiterated because it is striking to think about a 20 points per game score and the Hawks got him for 15 million on their cap sheet. Like it, that's really not happening in the league right now. That is not a common occurrence,

even with the scoring boom, that you're getting that kind of efficient, like that kind of production from somebody who's not on a rookie scale deal. And you're right. Ultimately, when the rubber meets the road with some of these competitive teams, they're going to have to choose

and they're going to have to prioritize certain guys over others. And there's completely a market for that. There's also a market, not just in terms of the guys they're drafting, but the Nikiel Alexander example is, who are the bargain bin fines, that then they can't afford to resign

because of those cap mechanisms, because they have the early bird rights, but not the full bird rights, because they send them to a minimum on a flyer, but ultimately can't afford to keep them on a longer term, more expensive deal. You could do pretty well in the league

just by writing in the wake of a pretty good GM and finding and investing in the picks that ultimately they can't afford to keep around. Yeah. All right. Why don't we take another break? And then we come back. We'll do our next round.

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All right. We talked to potential superstststile. before with Denny, but I think we have to talk about another one right now. Kyle, I want to do one of yours? This is just a funny story. I mean, it's been an interesting story for a while. I mean, if you're on the basketball internet at all, you're probably aware of Pat Spencer, this guy, his brother Cam Spencer plays for the Memphis Grizzlies. They both went to Loyola, Maryland. Cam played basketball. Pat played lacrosse. And if you listen to Pat's college coach, talk about him, play lacrosse. He said he was the Lamar Jackson.

of lacrosse, which made me wonder a couple things. Number one, what would Lamar Jackson look like playing lacrosse? What does that really mean? I don't know. Like, is it just that, you know, Pat was really flexing on the white guys with his balance in that environment? I don't know. I'm just, because if you look at the highlights, it's pretty, you know, but I just, it makes you wonder about some of these guys who go from cross sport, some of the mental kind of skill sets that they draw. He was a really good, it's not like he picked, but it's not like he picked up basketball all of a sudden. He was a good high school player.

And then he just decided to play high major division one basketball. He said that was always his plan at Northwestern for his fifth year, his COVID year. So gets in a league, kicks around. He wasn't a knockdown shooter. That was kind of the thing that was holding him back. And for people who were just getting familiar with him, it's like, where did this guy come from? He had been with the Warrior Summer League team for like two or three years now, I think,

or at least a couple years. but in this absence of Steph of, I don't you think, it gets the calves the other night, they go out and no, no Al Horford, yeah. The calves are at full strength. Well, ish.

Are the calves ever at full strength these days? Well, they didn't have Jarrett. They didn't have Jared. No backstruse on an ongoing basis. Darius Garland is, I don't know, a mummy. Still. Yeah. But they had their stars.

And they should have beaten this Warriors team. I guess there's a discussion. to be had about like did they just not show up or was it that this team did the Warriors uncover something I'll throw to you guys what's your all's first reaction to Pat Spencer before I say much more about it I mean to your point Kyle I think there was a point in time where he would crop up now and again and wreck a team and it would feel like this funny little thing and now it just feels like Thursday like it just feels like a thing that is in his power to do in this moment and I think what's been striking about this stretch of Warriors basketball is with Steph out with Jimmy

in and out with Draymond in and out to say nothing about the other supporting guys they're kind of like easing along or bringing back from injury like D'Anthony Melton he is the one player who has like really seized that opportunity you know like Jonathan Cuminga I mean honestly the less said about his week the better

just absolutely disastrous stuff from him Brandon Pajemski I would say some up some down some mids just kind of all across the board nothing super reliable and then there's Pat Spencer fucking dive bombing teams and just like it has turned into an incredibly fluid player. And I fully admit

in saying this, this is bait for sports writers and prognosticators and podcaster types, Kyle. But when a guy is a lacrosse player or a cross sport athlete, you naturally look at the way that like the kinetic movements of that sport feed into the others. And it's like the way Pat

Spencer moves on the floor and the way he reads the game is as this very interlocking, elaborate thing in which he is never dominating the ball. He's good in the pick and roll, but he's trying to get off of it. He feels like he is part of a lacrosse kind of flow in his way. Do you think that translates

to podcasting and that's why I'm so good at flowing in between segments? I do think I wasn't going to say this to your face, Justin, but you are the Lamar Jackson of podcasting. Oh, thank you. On a lacrosse team or on an NFL team? You're the Lamar Jackson of lacrosse of podcasting.

I don't know what that means exactly, but I'll leave you to parse it. I played defense for four years in high school, specifically because our team was very bad. And because when you're on defense, you have the longer poles. And thus, you don't actually need, like, skills. You don't need, like, the stick handling skills

and just fucking put people. How did we not know that you were a lax, bro? How did this escape us in all the years that we've been working with you? There's a lot of pods to mind the depths of my traumatic upbringing. I definitely had last year some lettuce going, too. Like, the only time I've had long hair was senior year of high school.

Used to rock the backwards baseball cap. Typically a Boston Red Sox hat. It's not surprised. And then had the flow going out from the hat or the helmet. You need to produce this photo. Now that you have introduced it on the pod, I need everyone. If you're out there listening,

we need you to bombard Justin on all forms of social media. Send a photo. Send a photo. I'm sure my mother is just watching this. episode and just ready to text it to me. I can't wait. I uncovered an interesting bit of trivia for all the bars out there that want to do the Spencer family trivia night. I'm sure that's a theme that's going to happen. Pat, because if you listen to these two dudes in interviews, and if you just watch their behavior, they are crazy. Like in a way that it's charming,

like the competitiveness. Justin knows this about camp. Cam was so crazy at Yukon that Dan Hurley would be like, dude, which is saying something. Like Dan Hurley was like, you should chill a little bit, which is, you know, that's, that's some wild stuff. Well, Kyle, when Pat hit that shot against the Sixers and just like blacked out yelling, I'm that motherfucker to the crowd, I mean, one, look like a guy who's meme stock just hit, but also completely disassociated from reality. He did it against the calves on the free throw line.

He waved. They're crazy in the best possible way. So I just got thinking, Kim has the Napoleon Con. complex going because he's a little bit smaller. Like past just, I think it's a full-blown psychopath. Yeah. He's got the solid complex going. You know, the mustache speaks volumes.

Yeah. I could see him on an episode of Blue Bloods. My in-laws would be the first to tell me if that happened. So I was just what these two brothers. Can you imagine like grown up in this house? That's where my mind went. And I was just like I was trying to just figure out where this was this like the O'Doyle family from Billy Manor?

what was going on. Their dad owns an auto service center. So I was like, okay. I was just trying, I don't know, I was just trying to figure out the psychology of the Spencer's. So they're intense. They have another brother,

so maybe he'll emerge. But let's talk about the basketball set of this. If there's anything that's going to stick, number one, I think there's the broader indictment on the Warriors. There's this balance of, these are feel good stories. Oh, this is so cool.

Quentin Post. They pulled this guy out and he's going to be, he's playing for him. How nice. Will Richard. Wow, he's a good. And I'm not trying to discredit those guys, but it just kind of, it's a huge indictment on their guys that should be performing that we're even in this position where these feel good stories can bubble up to the surface. I know they have guys out, but it's just embarrassing for Kaminka. Like you watched him in that Cavs game. And it was like, he just wanted to assert himself, didn't know how to do it. But then you would watch somebody like Pat, like you spoke to it. Like, Rob, the geometry of getting off the ball quickly. The thing that I think is going to keep him on the floor is he's a great connective passer. And I think that is something that. that carries over, cliche, as it might be in the sports writer term, I do think that that's something

that carries over from a sport like soccer or lacrosse is that he gets off the ball really effectively. If he's going to make open shots, I think that that's something that is going to serve them when they get back, you know, defensively and things like that, we'll see. But yeah, I think it's like Nimhart. I think it's something that maybe isn't going to be a primary element of what they do. But I think he's, I mean, what do you all think? I don't know what to make of the shot, honestly. Like, Justin, he's hitting them right now, but incredibly low volume. Most of them are quite wide open, as honestly, they will be if you play with Steph and Jimmy when all those guys are back in the lineup full time. But is he a shooter? I don't know. Is he a ball mover and a

warrior's E connector? That I completely buy. You know, I didn't take a single three tonight in a win, and not even just a win, they're absolutely walloping the Bulls, which is a completely separate conversation. And you're still a plus 30. So still makes it work. Um, I think the problem, not problem per se, but I think this is ultimately a Steve Kerr conversation and as good as Kerr has been as a coach, like he's so dogmatic, like he really is going to default to his system and the flow and the energy overall things. And so he does remind me of like a Nebraska football coach in like the 90s where it's just like, yeah, we're going to run the power option until the power option is the only thing that we could do. And so I just like,

I would wish that at this point with the available guys that he has, he would be a little bit more amenable to finding ways to get Jonathan Kaminga on the court, let alone, like, to things to his preference. But he's just running out the same old ball finds energy sort of thing. But this is the Kaminga problem. I think what propels Pat Spencer and what makes him any kind of NBA player is his like give a shit factor is through the roof. Like he is investing on every possession basis in a way. way you want a role guy to do it. Everything about the way Jonathan Coominga has handled himself and carried himself, he came out, played like four games trying to participate in how the Warriors play. And other than that, just like has not had the requisite energy level or rebounding focus or defensive intensity. That's the word.

Just the fact that you chose that word is so damning. All you have to do is participate. And so, yes, like, I'm not saying Steve Kerr is blameless in this. And frankly, there's also probably a bigger conversation to be had about the synergy between the people that Bob Myers and now Mike Dunleavy have put on this team and given to Steve Kerr, because if you do have a dogmatic coach, maybe you just don't bring in anybody who isn't going to play the way that they want to play. Maybe if you have Joe Missoula, you bring in other players who are going to fit Missoula ball. Maybe if you have Eric Spolstra, you find guys who

are going to fit the heat standards. And if you have Steve Kerr as your coach, why are you wasting time with Jonathan Kaminka? Like, why would you invest in him in the first place? And especially once you get to that initial roadblock of, oh, maybe the way we play just isn't compatible with the way he experiences the game and his skill set. Why are you just holding on and holding on and hoping that, I guess, a trade will materialize because nothing in the way he's playing right now suggests this is going to work out well for him and them. Yeah, you almost wish they just kind of parted ways over the off season and looked at the bigger picture, found that like this was never going to work out to begin with because we got here probably quicker than we even imagined,

considering it started so well this season. And we're at the the point where he's not playing tonight. It was a coach's decision. He didn't deserve, like, more minutes down the stretch the other night against the Cavs, but, like, got to have the bigger picture of mind here. Like, how are you going to trade him if he's not playing or participating in big moments? So, yeah. This is the same conversation we've been having got the Warriors and Cominga for three years

at this point. And that's a game we should say that Draymond and Al Horford did not play in. And so in theory, front court size and front court athleticism and production would be at a premium in a game like this. Apparently, the Gold State did not need. it to, as you said, just it just completely waxed the Bulls. But it would have been nice for Cumminga's, like,

sake if he could have had this kind of game to get himself together. It's just, it's not happening for him right now. 91 points from the Bulls. It looks like everybody played. That's sick. Weren't they up like 14-2?

And with like a minute into the kid, it was something insane. They just jumped on them. The Bulls looked depressed, man. I mean, you watch them walk back to the bench. It's, I was on a lot of losing basketball teams growing up. I can identify. I can identify that.

Depression. A lot of despondent eyes. Before we go to another bad basketball team, one way we change up the vibe here and go with something a little bit more cheery, Rob? I'm happy to. Pat Spencer's cheery? Pat Spencer is a cheery story. And this is another story where we're clutching something cheery

out of what could have been a disaster scenario. I want to talk to you both about the Spurs without Victor Webb and Yama. Every team's worst nightmare in a way. How do you get by without your best player? We talk endlessly about the, about the on-off splits with somebody like Wemby, right? How does this team cope without him? He's such a singular talent, especially on defense.

What do you do? How do you survive? How could this team possibly go on without him? They played 10 games without him and they're 7 and 3. Pretty good. Pretty incredible. Overall for the season, even if you want to just like, let's widen the sample, it's not just the games where he's out,

but when he's been off the court in general, they've been a winning team this season. Slightly better than that during this stretch where they know he's going to be out and have been even more locked in in their style. I think it's been like an incredible ensemble effort in terms of what the Spurs have been putting together. Like Steph Castle missed nine of those 10 games

that Wembe has been out. Dylan Harper missed like half of those games when he's been out. And yet you're just getting excellent play from Dearon Fox, which is this is kind of why you bring a guy like him in in the first place. Maybe the best stretch of Devin Fiselle's entire career in terms of actually productive minutes that are meaningful and important and competitive for a team that's winning. It's been a celebration of,

of Kelden Johnson, who I think is honestly like very, very quietly been one of the great stories of the season. Kelden Johnson, a guy who just felt like an accessory, an appendage that would be cut off for the future of this Spurs organization, has found a role in an evolving capacity and been really important for them. Harrison Barnes has been killing it. I feel irrationally invested in David Jones Garcia in a way that I don't really know how to explain other than the fact that there are times when you watch him play and for two

minutes, he will look like the best basketball player on earth. All that stuff is happening. Victor Weniam isn't there. The Spurs continue to win. Please discuss amongst yourselves. I mean, you kind of hit it there where there's just so many recent first round draft picks and just talent still trying to find their footing in the league that like it's spilling over into their second unit.

And a lot of these guys have carved out what seems to be their role in the NBA being pushed to the second unit and just being more role player minded. I think Kelton Johnson is a prime example of that where he was their go-to score like two years ago, three years ago, or whatever it was. But he's best suited to play a little like skilled wingy bully ball. And he does that very effectively on a second year. Sohan kind of reborn as like a second unit like dirty man. And like so there's just like a lot to figure out here still.

And to that point like there's only five non-rooky scale non-minum contracts on this entire team. And some of the adult contracts consist of guys. not just like Kelton Johnson and Barnes, but like Kelly Olinick. And so like there's just like a wellspring of talent. And so it's no surprise, especially when like one of the fallback options is Deer and Fox who had like so many years and experience just like lifting up a worst cast of characters where it's just like that's obviously a boon to have. But there's also just a lot here to work with even when Wembe, even with Castle's not out there. I don't want to step on our secret Santa, Justin, but I will be getting you a shirt that says second unit dirty man. it and that was that was a bar you can do with that what you will but I think you'll be able to pull it off

oh is that a backhanded compliment is that not a compliment whatsoever I think it's absolutely a compliment in in the same way that you just complimented jeremy sohan okay just I think overall they've just the hit the hit rate on the on the talent has just been incredible I mean you rattled a lot of them off but the misses are guys that are popping up around the like malacob brain up for the wizard's the other night I was like what the hell is going on I mean, Blake Wesley, another one, obviously the Primo situation was not so Primo. But other than that, I mean, you go through and, yeah, they've just hit in their philosophy. We wrote a lot about this.

I know when we were in the rookie thing was just the roles that these guys were in while they were figuring it out. And that's kind of, I mean, that kind of added into my philosophy of the atrophy leading to straining the muscle to failure. And then it's going to grow in most cases. If you have a player that's mentally strong enough to handle it, you got a Sohan who was just overburdened. And the Spurs, I guess a player development staff is key in that. But if the plan goes according to plan, you end up with a superstar like a Dylan Harper, like a Victor Wimn Miamma. And those things when they recede and fall back into their secondary, tertiary places, you suddenly have these guys that are experienced and ready to play so long as they don't get greedy for more, you know? Yeah, I think that's happening on a team level with the Spurs too in terms of that like strain in order to rebuild.

When you look at the stretch of play, the spurs are not holding up their. and defensively. Like they're getting scored on pretty regularly. Luke Hornet's been kind of in and out. It's been like Bismack, Beambo has been a prominent part of some of these basketball games. Like it's all quite complicated in terms of actually getting stops, but they're just running it up on teams.

And they've been incredibly energetic in terms of their offense and getting into their pace and all of that stuff. And it's like, for me, one of the first real hurdles for a young team is finding different ways to win. And so when you, you know, it's not enough to like have an identity. It's not enough to like play to that identity. Sometimes you have to veer in a totally different direction to survive a playoff game or to survive a series or a matchup.

I feel like that's what this is. And this is why this feels real to me is the spurs are not doing the thing that we know them to do when Victor Wehman Yama is on the floor, which is to be a game-changing defense, straight about scoring teams. And if they have that in their back pocket and in a second quarter in a crucial game, they can play a different lineup that goes all offense and it just works, then we have to start thinking about them in a different way as far as like a real challenger in the Western conference.

The Fox bar of this, I think, is the more interesting thing as we ripple into these guys kind of coming back here. And it sounds like they're days away. I think Castle is going to play in the next one in Wemby, at the very least, is practicing again. Because on the one hand, like Foxes looked pretty good in this 10 game stretch without Wemby. But as I mentioned, this is kind of a little bit more of what he's used to. The big challenge is going to be can he take what he does and apply it to a context when everybody's there? Because even when he came back briefly, like Harper was out, I think that's going to be an overlap there. Castle in particular. We talked about this so much already. It's like, how did these guys all stack together? Who can play with whom? Like, how does all the pieces 50? Like, the hard work

almost begins now. It's good that there's a floor of a seven and three team in here. And honestly, it's kind of the old school, like you build a big three, a big two, because when one of your superstars is out, you know you have another superstar to carry you in the offing. But now, like, let's see everybody together. There's a lot to work with, but like the work kind of begins now. Rob, have you studied about, you were talking about the defensive thing, and we talked about earlier in the year how their uphill pressure was just off the charts because of, you know, they wanted to get in transition.

They obviously have, you know, the best room protector in the world behind them at this point. Yeah. Is it a case of them being aggressive, but he's just not back there anymore? Is that what it is? You can see some of that. I would say it's a little less of it just because, for one, Castle's been out. And he's one of their most aggressive defenders in terms of really hounding people.

some of it is guys just getting blown by some of it is some of that pressure that's then, you know, backhanded without any support. Ultimately, they just don't feel very cohesive defensively. They feel like they don't, for a team that kind of knows where to be when Victor Webbenyama is out there, it's not just the pressure.

I think it's the positioning, too, to be honest with you. All right, why don't we wrap it up here by talking about the second best room protector in the world right now? I'm talking about Noah Clowny. Hell yeah, brother. So a classic two, years away from being two years away sort of guy. And now we're in year three. Looks like he's

kind of on the precipice of something. Just one of the oddest combination of skills because he's like a bouncy, like, just destroy the rim on both ends, big man, but also has developed into like a pretty steady three point shooter to the point where like he's stroking in a volume and he's looking pretty good. And so I can't even think of like an adequate comp here because he's almost like, what if Rob Williams shot threes and was healthy and played. I was thinking, what if Ryan Anderson was also Javelle McGee? You know, like, there's something in there that makes sense, but doesn't make sense. And so we're getting to the point where the Claxton, clowny Michael Porter Jr.

threesome in the front court for the Nets is actually looking pretty good. And they've now won three of their past four. They've only won six games on the season, so let's not go too far. But we might be in a situation where we are last year where it's like, they're two good to be putrid. And so where does that really leave them? Clownie is too good. The nets need to be broken up. I think they've been very good together. I mean, we could talk about Michael Porter Jr. in the mix of here too. Who's just like absolutely on fire. He's been really great. That stuff has

been wild. Yeah. I mean, to the point where I'm like, I don't have his contract in front of me. I'm like somebody made a run at him. But so they can get back to where they were at. The shooting's interesting because, well, to me, it was a little inverted because when I would watch him, you know, he played at Alabama in a really high, you know, uptempo offense, NATO would shoot a lot of threes. And he was always somebody that looked like he was just sort of convinced that he could shoot threes and he believed it just enough to be effective in that way. But it was sort of a, he was a sometime shooter, strigley no movement, spot up at things. The thing that's really jumped out to me with Clownie is his handle improvement. You can just watch him. He's getting to the

basket a whole lot more. It just seems like there's more method. to the madness where, you know, when guys drive, you'll see players when they're developing their handle, there's a sort of mindless dancing that can go on with the ball. When really in reality, it's just like simple utilitarian, like the guy's hips are like this, I make this move. They're like this, I make this move. When I'm watching him play now, I'm just like Clowny has really started to get a better feel for that to go beyond. Because we knew we could run and jump and dunk and things like that. It's like going and attacking a one-on-one match up on his own. I feel like he's really expanded in that way in a way that's made me take

him a whole lot more seriously. He's definitely expanded it. I would say his work off the dribble is almost a thing, but maybe not quite a thing. It's yeah, it's it's it's jolopy plane landing, but it's the plane's landing. It's just, you know, a crash is a landing, you know. Yeah, because Claxon tries this too. And Clowny's a little bit smaller and thus more compact and fluid and more successful at the actual wing guard sorts of stuff that he tries. Yes. He's like an inch shorter though, right? I mean, Cloudy 610 and Claxton just looks bigger because we think of him as a center at this point.

It is funny seeing them in like pregame too because they're both like 150 pounds. And they were doing this thing in the layup lines before they get introduced and they were like bouncing off each other. And it looked like Connie had to steal himself from whoever was trying to like hit him. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know long term how that pairing. susses out for like an actually competitive Nets team. They might be like a little too similar in terms of body type alone.

But I think honestly they kind of have weird interplay on the court too. I saw a play where Noah Clowny tried to run like a dribble handoff from Claxton and then drive it and then hook a pass like over his head through the defense and I would say it went about as well as you would expect.

So like it can get really messy sometimes when he works off the dribble and then he'll have plays where he drives into contact creates through somebody and manages to finish. Or as he's getting more and more like mobile out of those scenarios or attacking closeouts or whatever, you're just seeing him like rack up free throws in some of these games too, like really stress people with his mobility, which is something that like for a guy who came in with more of a defensive reputation is always great to see, you know, translating from, you know,

he's going to be a mobile rangey defender to now all of a sudden he's stretching the floor as a legitimate shooting option. And I'll say Kyle too, I'm curious about your take on this. I know you mentioned his his kind of shooting confidence in college. But for a guy who is coming along and shooting more and more as a pro, has an incredibly fluid quick release, I would say, for a stretch four. Yeah, it's definitely gotten more fluid since he's been in the league. Like it was, it was very steampunky. Like you could see all the pieces moving independently of each other.

Like he was, he, he, it went in a lot. I mean, those were some great teams that he was on. But yeah, when you were talking about him driving and the, there's a whole of wing of things that we'll talk about someday. Let's take it one step at a time. But when he drives, it's to score right now. But I mean, yeah, if he's, if he's taking threes, it's, uh, when they're getting up and down, he tends to shoot a little bit better than when they're in the half court. But I don't know, maybe he's just one of those like gets in a latherer and does better when he's moving rather than if he's stagnant, which stands to reason since he's such a, you know,

rangy long athlete. It could be. And I think as far as his developmental curve, Justin, over the last two years, he has kind of tilted that balance to where he just takes more threes than anything else. I would not be surprised if his ultimate trajectory is to then swing back, right? It's like create the threat of the three. And then all of a sudden he becomes this really impactful driver, this guy who's like playing within the flow of an offense in a way that I think could really open things up for him. So he started the past 17 games in large part because they tried to put Michael Porter Jr. at the four and the defense was just not even passable at that point. And so this has given them something of a backstop with Clownie and Clackson, like both protecting the rim.

but in that 17 game sample, it's taken over seven threes a game and almost five free throws a game. And honestly, like, this feels like sort of a nice balance, especially for a team that's going to want to put him up from three. Like, I ultimately think his future lies as being the ultimate player you want to stitch together to front court talents like this.

We talk so much about the skeleton key guys who unlock the front court stores, basically the Miles Turner types, especially with next to Janus or some of these unicorns that we have. Like, Klauny seems like, a legit type of guy who could be that one. I don't know if he has star potential or anything beyond that, but if he embraces like this lane for him,

like he could do this for 10 more years. Yeah, I don't see him as a star. I see him as a guy who's just going to be in the NBA for a long time. Like all the component parts are there. And if he is this kind of score and offensive presence, in addition to the defensive prospect he already was and is, that just makes him that much easier to play. Like you're right, Justin,

he's kind of tethering together players that otherwise might not make a lot of sense because he has a pretty unique skill set. So that's incredibly valuable to any team, but I would say especially to a team like the Nets that frankly does not have any idea of what the next best version of their team is going to be. Can I say something wild? This is the place to do it.

Okay. Well, I actually have a funny, like a fun takeaway and also a potentially serious takeaway. So a regular one and a silly one? Yeah, there you go. Like one of the two pieces of theater. We're taking family pictures here. Yeah, exactly.

What if they didn't trade anybody and what the spot that is now going to Terrence Mann, if they get a high draft pick, they just slotted him in? Is the context for the future of the Brooklyn Nets, Geoman, Clowny, MPJ and Claxton? Could you be at the very least feisty as soon as next year, if not in two years with AJ DeBonsa, for instance, plus those four? I can't tell if this is the silly one. well that's smart the fun here I think that makes sense to me like a lot of the guys that they have

profile as more role player types you know MPJ and Cam Thomas excluded and again it's hard to judge what this team is when fully healthy and when all the pieces are integrated but they need someone who is an actual star and MPJ is like knocking on the door of something right now and that's something may be interesting but it's not as the primary option on a playoff team

like that's just not who he is but could he be a really good secondary performing in this way around someone, like who's an actual driver of offense? Like seemingly, Kyle, the like three or four different guys in this upcoming draft class who might fit that brief, I think that's a pretty reasonable claim to make. I was going to ask you all if there was sort of a so-and-so-shaped hole based on the conversation we're having here about the type of player. Granted, I just don't think the nets are in the position to do anything but take

if the best player were a player that played MPJ's position, they should just take him. Just take the best player. But I do think the stars are aligning in a way where, I mean, Darren Peterson would be really incredible. Like he would stir this into a cocktail that would be very, very interesting because he leans scoring. I don't know how much you all gotten to watch him, but he's super explosive. And then you start to talk about the connective rookies that I made a bet on in our,

you know, bet on a low stock thing. Those guys, their skill sets and they've been playing better. You know, Wolf's been playing better. The omen's been playing better. I just think it would make sense. think for you all is like who's the who's the interesting team at the bottom that they are vying for that they could like run down i mean i think we're talking about like the w it'd be like the whiz the hornets are we talking about they could get more interesting than them like because i don't think

they're sniffing that play in area anytime soon it's just like could they could they get more feisty than those teams as currently constructed no i think like their destiny is to be just better than the pelicans and they wax the pelicans the other night and so there's like that clear division in the tears there. But like, are they better than the Hornets? Probably not. Not as constructed. I think I'm thinking more long term like, is this an easier flip than we've been led to believe? Because I think part of this is also like some of these rookies. We'll see. It's only been 20 some odd games, but they're already starting to show a little bit more. Danny Wolf, we should talk about like he's fun as hell, especially when now, whenever he scores a bucket, they play

a big old like wolf like, oh, ooh, like it's Twilight or something. I'm, That was my fun takeaway. Like I think they're a league pass team now. I feel like Justin, you were a team Jacob guy, I feel like. I forgot who's who, man. He's the, he's the wolf.

Yeah, he's the wolf. I've only seen the first one. I mean, I was, you're better off. I think. 15 minutes into that movie. Yeah. You miss the CGI baby.

So like maybe don't go too far into that series. Oh shit. Is that the second one? Oh my God. No, it's like the eighth one. It's like one of the last, one of the last in. Oh my God.

This, guys, this shit plays on T&T all the time. If I'm at a hotel. room, you bet I will watch Breaking Dawn Part 2. You bet your ass I will. Wow, we're learning a whole lot here. Just because it's on T&T doesn't mean you have to watch it. We know that. Disagree. Unless it's, unless it's Animal Kingdom, RIP. What a falling skies. God, shots fired up falling skies. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Wolf is, I have a lot of stock in Wolf. He's one of those that you check your phone, your stocks. They need to invent an app that has like a stock market thing so that I can check my e-vowls so I can be like,

car I way off on that one. My fear is doing terrible right now. But the wolf the wolf one is one that I'm pretty invested in because he's just got so much skill, man. I think he's toolsy and I think he could really be a connector for whatever it is they choose to do. So the Nets, potentially interesting

if they get a star, which became more difficult because they've been more competitive than we expected. I don't think they're that competitive yet. I'm really not worried about this. Okay. Well, you've got Greg Popovich, George Fernandez over there. Everybody says he's the best coach in the league, you know?

Why are we taking shots at Jordy Fernandez? What did Jordy Fernandez do to you? No, I don't, we'll let people in on this. Over text, I was just joking with them about, it's like, everybody loves Jordy Fernandez. And I was just like, it must be, I was trying to just triangulate where it was coming from. I was like, it must have been just person to person sort of things because I was like, well, the game of the team didn't play well. I was just, I don't have anything against him. I was just scrutinizing for the sake of it. Wait, Justin, did we hear the silly take? Silly take was the whole Danny Wolf's stuff.

I kind of just wove it in there. That's real, though. That's more real than your real take. It was more just like I had way too much fun watching Nets, Pelicans the other night. Like, I'm going to dial these guys up like this week, which I wasn't saying before because it was a really difficult watch related on. I will say the truly bad teams in the league have kind of all had that moment so far. You know, like no one has been purely unwatchable. from start to now.

They've all had like a week or two stretch. Yes, Pacers have yet to really hit their stride, but I'm sure there will be an incendiary Andrew Nemhard stretch ahead of us somehow. But other than that, like the wizards, the pelicans,

the nets, like they have had these stretches like pretty fun, watchable basketball, and then they fall back into the abyss somehow. So we will enjoy the nets while they last. Caitlin Cooper's Twitter account has read like that journal

from The Last of Us where the guy realizes that he's trapped in the bunker and the zombies are coming, in he's like oh there's no hope like just like heard tweets it's extremely tough scenes out there from yeah four Pacers um

all right before we go we got to talk cup because the cup is upon us uh four matchups this week I believe Tuesday and Wednesday um any any general cup talk you guys want to want to talk through

I do think this is an awesome cup field if we want to run through the matchups really quickly Thunder versus Suns, Lakers versus Spurs, Magic versus Heat, Raptors versus Knicks. There's like a couple of teams missing that like would I love if the rockets were in there somewhere, sure. But of in terms of like a random draw out of group play into now,

this is a pretty nice field. And I feel like a pretty good mix of kind of like everything you would want from a cup environment. So other people may not care about the cup. I choose to. I choose to be invested to a certain degree in the outcome of the cup. And in particular of the outcome of the cup. of the outcome of these particular teams, which I do quite like.

Yes, my cup take is if you feel strongly one way or another, you're probably a weirdo. But knockout basketball, knockout NBA basketball is something we don't get. And so this part, I think makes sense. I still think they need to figure something out with the prelude games, just finding some sort of stakes or something beyond just the weird courts in order to get people interested. But this part is pretty sick. And it has been sick the past two years. They've tried it. Yeah.

for me i alluded to this before on another episode but the cup is most interesting for me not for the teams that are gonna like the older teams who are chasing it trying to get their shit together not as interested in that i'm more interested in the teams that have something to prove in terms of like we're going to be taken seriously and i feel like the the rafters are the team that i'm keeping an eye on in that sense because i just feel like the larger the larger narrative i know we got grief for not expecting a ton from them early on in the in the year but

what's been going on with them lately Kyle well that's the team that's the team that I think if they have a really good showing and if they won I just I just feel like that they have a lot to they have a lot of capital to gain I do agree I mean we we had discussed should the three of us

latch on individually to have a rooting stake in the cup is that something we should do are you guys interested in that? Yeah I think we should all pick a team and I actually just did a little generator here to come up with the order of who gets first pick. And Kyle, you're first up. And so which team of the eight currently on the docket do you want to ride for this cup season?

Well, first of all, asterisk. The thunder we got to throw out. Yeah, nobody can pick. You cannot pick the thunder. Here's the thing with the thunder. Are they the most liable to lay down in order to get out of the cup? Like to play nobody's or are there nobody's just so good that they're going to compete? anyway. That's the problem I'm concerned with.

Like they their version of laying down is somehow still in fighting shape. So I think the thunder are ineligible. Okay. I think I just said it. Let's let's go crazy. Let's do it. Let's do the rafters. That's my pick. All right. Rob, you're up next. Wow, look at that. Okay. See,

not only do I think the thunder should be ineligible, I don't want to choose any team that I'm going to be rooting for that's on their side of the bracket. So I will also be going east. I got to go Orlando magic. I got to go, you know, We're reintegrating Paolo into the lineup. We are hurling basketballs at anyone who aggravates us.

I just think there's a lot of fighting spirit in the mighty, mighty magic. So I look forward to Orlando supremacy. So the last time we saw the magic right before we recorded this, Franz Wagner had unfortunately fallen and was grasping at his knee, and it looked like he may have suffered a pretty significant injury. I don't know if you caught that. I'm going to give you one chance to double back on your pick here. Does that change anything for you?

No, I'm committed. It's fine. Okay. Serious stuff. We do hope Franz gets well soon. We do hope Franz gets well soon. But look, this is why Paolo just made his way back. So in theory, you can weather such storms.

He's not at the MRI yet, right? They haven't, they, do they know the extent of it? He's just gone to take the MRI? As we're recording this, nothing official has come out. It just looked bad. We hope for the best. That's unfortunate. So obviously I have to take a West team.

And I think the smart pick would be the Spurs, because as we mentioned, everyone's coming back soon. So it's very possible that they have the full death star against the Lakers and potentially against the thunder of Sons. But that's not where my heart lies these days. I'm going with the Dylan Brooks led Phoenix Sons who will probably not have Devin Bucker, if only because this is all about the underdog and the Sons are the ultimate underdog. I mean, if the Sons even make the final, it would be such a spectacular cup run.

And I say that as if there's been spectacular cup runs before. It would be the first spectacular cup run. Indiana, right? I mean, but it was close, yeah. I mean, there have been fun Cub games. There's been interesting charges, but like has anything been historically notable in any cup previously

in terms of the actual trajectory of the thing? The Camerettish Revival, right? Didn't he have a big cut? I can promise you that Cameretish revival was not historically notable. All of which is to say, Justin, I think you've made the right kind of pick, which is if it pays off,

it will be immensely satisfying. I think the cup was the only thing. thing the Dame Janus duo produced to the point where still, I remember when they gave Dame like a, like a hello when he went into Milwaukee and that was like one of the primary images was him holding the cup. I mean, they produced a lot of content. Yeah.

They gave us a lot of pod fodder, you know? That's right. And hopefully they do that again. But, all right. So Sons, Kyle's Raptors, Rob is magic. I expect you all to buy foam fingers before the next pod. and we'll take it from there. I mean, I would love some Orlando pinstripes.

You know, maybe we just need to fully invest and deck out for this thing. I had a, they really capitalized on the Jurassic Park momentum because when I was a kid, I remember when the expansion stuff came out, my grandmother worked at Lazarus, now Macy's, and she got me, and it was an Isaiah Thomas Raptors jersey because he was an executive. They didn't even have Stodomier yet. So, yeah, I was way into the Raptors as a kid. Nice. So there was a department store called Lazarus?

Yeah, you all didn't have Lazarus? Definitely did not. It was a bacon for that. No, it was, I think Macy's bought them eventually, but it was called Lazarus. Yeah, I would love the pitch meeting on like, yeah, we got our snazzi new department store. We're trying to hit this sweet spot in between, you know, J.C. Pennings and Sears, Lazarus, that is the vision. Like, what is the metaphor that they are reaching for by naming a store Lazarus?

Maybe they, well, no, honestly, it's. It's so in my childhood and my memory that it doesn't strike me as odd. So I can't even get where you are. When you were saying that just now, I was just like, it's not weird at all. What are you talking about? Sounds like something on the righteous gemstones like compound. So I have go see Lazarus. I have good news and bad news.

The good news is I can confirm it is an actual thing and Kyle is not losing his mind. The bad news is it was just founded by a guy named Simon Lazarus. So maybe the most boring possible outcome. the Bobcats of department store. Straight up. We just named our team after a guy. Name Bob. Don't name your teams after guys.

Name them the Raptors instead. Like, have a little imagination. I feel like we need to end every pod with words of wisdom from Rob. That'll be the first one. You know what? I'm game for it. We had to put a pin in.

I say we had to as if there was some like big struggle over our like introspective questions that we open the season with. Maybe this is our follow up to that. We really get deep at the end of pods instead. I like it. I also like this pod, but unfortunately, it's come to a conclusion. We'll catch you next time. Thank you to Isaiah Blakely. Thank you to Victoria Valencia. We'll see you soon. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in D.C, Kentucky, or Wyoming.

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