The Ringer NBA Show - Who Belongs in the NBA’s Top Tier With the Lakers? | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 9, 2021

Justin and Rob are joined by The Athletic’s John Hollinger to discuss which teams are contenders, kicking things off with the surging Utah Jazz (01:00). Later, they look at other top teams, including the Bucks, Clippers, and more (23:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Rob Mahoney Guest: John Hollinger Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to group chat, the ringer's weekly NBA group discussion where the game won't let me know it's time. Rob Mahoney will. I am Justin Verrier joining me today, the 38-year-old MVP candidate, Rob Mahoney. You know, I always had you peg as kind of a burnout, not fade away type of guy. So I'm the Jared Dudley, is what you're saying? No, no, you're going to burn real hot for a couple years, hit your prime and then, you know, bounce out of there. Yeah, there's a Phoenix Sun's joke in there, I'm sure, but I'll let that sit there. And our special guest today, a man who needs no introduction, but we'll give him one anyway, from the athletic. John Hollinger, what is that, my friend?

How are you guys doing? Doing great. So today, we are going to talk about some teams that are in the upper crust of the NBA, but we're going to debate whether or not they belong in the first tier with Los Angeles Lakers, Utah Jazz, a couple other teams. We will do that right after this. So in a bit of kismet, Rob and I have been trying to do this topic for a week or two now. And it just so happened that, John, you wrote about the jazz yesterday on the athletic.

So this is pretty convenient. So the big question we're debating here is whether or not they belong on the same tier with the Lakers. And within your piece, you say pretty definitively, they do. So for you, this is pretty clear. The jazz are contenders, Lakers-level contenders. Yeah. I mean, to me, it's very clear the evidence of their first, however many games it's been now, have been 24 games.

Yeah, I mean, they're in the top five in the league in both offense and defense. They have a clear, you know, their construction just makes it really hard to guard them because you have to deal with Gobert at the rim, but they surround them with 40% three-point shooters, and they have multiple on-ball shot creators. So it's just a conundrum for opposing defenses. And then at the other end, Gobert is able to almost. almost be the defense by himself. I mean, they're not that big or that imposing on the perimeter, but the fact is, once you get past those guys, you still have to deal with Rudy.

So they play the Celtics tonight in which should be a pretty big test of the recent run here. They've won 15 of 16, even with injuries to the likes of Ingalls, Donovan Mitchell, Conley, I believe, is still out tonight. He was out over the weekend. I suspect that's going to run a little longer. I mean, hamstring issues. It's usually not just the guy misses a game or two. When he hurts, do you hurt as well? Is this like a freaking twin situation where you feel it raining and some arthritis going there? A disturbance in the force.

Yes. Exactly. Well, this is fortunate, though, because now that John's here, now that we have a quorum, you know, the Mike Conley Appreciation Society can really commence its meeting. Yeah, yeah. You know, I was hoping this might be the year that we finally correct a horrible wrong and get him in the All-Star game. He should have made it in 2015. and they didn't take him, but bygones.

The hot start by the jazz and how well Mike was playing, I thought really might be able to push him in. Hopefully he doesn't miss too many games here, because I think that would potentially hurt him if he did. Yeah, where do you see the biggest differences for him this year relative to last year? To me, it's a completely different pick and roll partner is 90% of it. That you could see him, I mean, you think about it. He played a decade with Mark.

And that whole time there in Memphis, I mean, we'd never had a lob threat. We had, you know, Brandon Wright was probably the only true lob threat we had the whole time. And he was barely healthy the three years we had him. So the difference to me is that when he first got there, he was like trying to drop bounce pocket passes. And, you know, they were either going off Gobert's hands or he'd catch the ball and not be able to do anything with it because he's not at the rim. And now he's kind of figured it out the, you know, how to use Gobert in those situations that, you know, hang on to the ball a little longer, wait for him to get his role a little deeper, throw it up at the rim, or see the defense react to that and then take advantage of it. And then, I mean, there's an element of randomness, too. I mean, he started off last year.

He was like, oh for whatever on his right-handed floater, which you knew wasn't going to continue. And you could see toward the end of last year, he was starting to get the hang of it by. By the playoffs last year, he was good. And we're just seeing a continuation of that, I think, into this season. The ripple effects of that, I thought were interesting, too. And, you know, there was definitely some randomness with the floater, but I wonder if some of it, too, was him having to focus so much on how do I get the ball to Rudy in the right spots? How do I work out this new chemistry with a new partner that maybe the timing was off with the floater?

It's certainly seen that way in terms of reading the weak side, getting the ball to the corner, shooter on the other side of the floor. Well, yeah, I mean, just the fact having somebody who can actually shoot in the corner was probably a big difference versus playing with us. We had Mike Miller that one year, but otherwise, we didn't have a lot in that department. Yeah, Tony Allen wasn't exactly shooting 40% from three there. It's pretty wild watching the jazz now. Like, in some ways, maybe they're like a spiritual successor to the Rockets. Now the Rockets are like a completely different team.

I'm watching them. And it's just like, it's bombs away. Like, it's Patinos, Bombino style. And all the shots are just gorgeous. Like, I'm just watching these just, like, brilliant shooters just, like, bomb it away from three. And in a lot of ways, it's a simple just equation that they have there, but it's been really effective. I guess the question is going forward, do we expect some of regression? And if the shooting isn't going to hit 40% for, what is it, five different shooters on their team right now,

now? Do we expect some drop off because of that? Well, possibly, although, I mean, the fact that they have so much offense on that team and their top eight players, I think makes it easier for each of those eight so that they're getting better shots than they have in the past. And that's part of the reason their percentages have been so good. We still might see some regression, sure. but I think like even with some regression, I mean, the Jazz are just murdering people in non-garbage time minutes this year. So even if those numbers come back,

like they're still an awesome team. Rob, you were about them just the other day. Is there something that you saw that's made a big difference this year? I think it's that balance that John's talking about where it's like even if you're in a case where your defense is getting a little exploited where Rudy's getting pulled out in space, whatever it is, you have the threes to then overwhelm teams.

And theoretically on the other side of that, if the threes aren't going down, you have this great structural defense with a lot of familiarity, with a lot of institutional knowledge to fall back on. And you can see that all across their game where it's not just that they're one of the best offensive rebounding teams in the league this season. They're one of the best overall rebounding teams in the league while playing small, while putting up all these threes. It's really a fascinating balancing act they've discovered here with this group of personnel. And that's why you really need Mike's hamstring to be in good shape going down the stretch into the playoffs. where, you know, even if that is the kind of injury that tends to linger, I think the jazz probably want to be even more conservative,

just to make sure that when it counts, he's going to be on the floor for them. And so the rebounding probably brings us to our guy, Rudy Gobert, who, when John categorized him as a potential MVP kin, I could just hear David Locke from Utah, just that the hymns were coming down. And it was just really Locke-Born there for a second. But in your opinion, he deserves to be up there with the Yokaches and the Embed's, considering what he's doing on both ends right now? Yeah, because the whole system is built around him, both offensively and defensively.

I mean, the whole idea of the three-point shooting is that the defense has to suck in to take away Gobert at the rim. And then at the defense of them, the whole reason they were able to build the team this way and play Bogdanovich at the four and, you know, play all these small guards is because basically they know they have Gobert as a backstop. And it's not just he's there as a rim protector. You watch him, he's actually really good on switches too. Like when they have to switch, he switches and he shuts it down.

So he's a problem at both ends. And I think, like, people don't think of him in that class because he's not the guy with the ball in his hands. But he impacts the game so heavily at both ends. How many screen assists? I feel like we can't get into the MVP conversation with Goberra unless there's the screen assist part. the thing that needs to happen, we need to get in a situation where somebody, on the last day of the season, needs like 50 screen assist to lead the lead and starts breaking the offense and like turning down layups to go set screens and stuff. Until that happens, until we get our

first screen assist chucker, it's not a real stat to me. Sure. Maybe he needs his own t-shirt. Get some branding help from Donovan Mitchell there. The thing the screen assist stat does actually underline is that he, Rudy Gobert has plays with a lot of energy off the ball because he runs into one screen after another after another and a lot of seven footers aren't doing that. Are we surprised that they've had such, you know, a quick start here in particular because in the past it's been the opposite, right? They've actually started slow and finished really strong and also because everything you heard over the off season was like potential chemistry concerns with the Gobert. They had the whole contract situation.

And so if I was to peg a team from the offseason POV, I wouldn't have said that they were the ones who were going to just go on a rocket ship right now. Yeah. You know, the one thing that always helps, when you look at teams that are overperforming expectations, health is almost always a factor. I mean, they've been very healthy, and I think that's really helped them. And the one sort of lingering potential weakness is that after you get through their top eight guys, this team isn't very good. And so you could see out a situation where multiple injuries at the same time could kind of erode them. But as long as they have six or seven of their top eight playing, I mean, it's hard to defend these guys and it's hard to score on them. That chemistry point, Justin, that you brought up with Donovan Mitchell and Rudy, though, I think, I mean, needs to be brought up again and again this season.

Just how quickly those guys were able to put all that to bed, especially when it's not like the Jazz are posting up. Rudy Gobert on the first possession of the game now to try to, you know, make him happy. Like, his usage is basically the same as it's been. His role is the same as it's been. He's just as good at doing those things as ever, you know, very handsomely paid for doing so. But they were really able to navigate all that really well in a dynamic that I think for a lot of teams could have caused him to solution. Yeah, you just talked to Mike. And it seemed like he spoke to that as well. It just seemed like things are just going really well there. I think he was really bullish on, as we've laid out, the time that they've had to build up these relationships, these individual bits of chemistry in terms of on court stuff.

You know, I think that really helped them. And, you know, his season last year was certainly slow starting as we've discussed. It took him a long time to figure that out to, you know, find his place in everything. But now that they have that familiarity, I mean, you can see it baked into so many of their actions, to so much of the synergy. and especially in Quinn Snyder's offense, which is built on, how do we get this action to flow into that one, to flow into that one, to string all these things together, if one or two of those pieces is even a little off. And you have Mike in and out of the lineup with his injuries. You have Jordan Clarkson, who they added in season last year, you're trying to incorporate

Boyan Bogdanovich at the same time. It was just all a little bit off. And I think they figured out and ironed out a lot of that stuff as they've gone on. Well, this is an interesting question for you, John, just because you have the front of office experience. Is chemistry the type of thing that now you've seen it in action up close and personal in a locker room that you recognize like it more and maybe it's more of a factor than perhaps you realized before or is it the type of thing where you've seen these guys on a day to day level and they're just professionals and we maybe overrate chemistry or the jazz type of team that's benefiting from that or are we just like projecting that onto them because they are having success. No, I mean, I think I mean so there's chemistry on two levels right.

There's locker room chemistry and then there's on court chemistry because you can, I mean, You can have teams with like nice guys that all really like each other, but then on the court they don't really mesh. Or you can have teams that are a little bit the opposite where, you know, maybe it's, you know, maybe it's 15 players and 15 cabs, but on the court it just works. Now, ideally you'd like to have both of those things at the same time, obviously. But I think with Utah, because I think you pointed out correctly,

I think Rob you were mentioning that, you know, the way their offense works. and it just flows and goes one thing into the other, having that continuity now of everybody there was there last year except Derek Favors, who was there forever before he went to New Orleans. So they all know what they were getting. They were able to start from such an advanced starting line that I think that helped them in the first part of this season.

So if I were to poke a hole in their case here, it's the schedule. and it doesn't seem like they've had like a signature win thus far, if anything, they had the game. Well, they kick the crap out of Milwaukee on the road. Sure. Well, I guess we can get into that later about whether or not that's a signature win depending on when you're actually facing Milwaukee. But like, you know, Yoko's shot 47 on them in that big game the other day.

It seems like the schedule coming up is going to be brutal. And this is going to be when like the litmus test, so to speak. But I guess are we worried at all that like, what we're seeing now, maybe won't withstand, you know, a couple games against the Clippers here, against the Milwaukee's, the Miami's, et cetera. They already beat the Clippers, and everybody is beating Miami. So I'm not sure those are two worries. I mean, these next eight games they do have coming up are tough, no question.

They have two against the Clippers. They play the Lakers, play Milwaukee, play Boston. you know, Miami's starting to show a little more of a pulse. You got Philly in there. And then even Charlotte isn't exactly cake these days. So, I mean, that is definitely going to be a tough stretch at the same time. You know, okay, so what? If they go four and four, now we're going to say they're frauds because they're only 23 and nine.

Well, I do think perhaps we overrate certain situations because we have this nice, tidy run here, right? No, 15 of 16 is just like it jumps out on the page. But if they were 13 of 16 would be sitting here today and being like they are the team to be in the NBA, I don't know. Well, that's, I mean, that's me is why, I mean, their supporting numbers are so strong that to me it's not just that they've, that they, you know, that they've amassed this, this win loss. It's that in non-garbage time minutes, they're just crushing people. So that's the part that stands out to me. And even that Denver game, I mean, Denver was playing out of their minds that game. They were 15 of 17 on threes in the first half.

Like there was no team on the planet that was beating the Nuggets that day. Also the thing about the Bucks game too, which they shot 25 of 53, the Jazz did from three in that game. It's insane. I think is indicative to, I mean,

and some of that, you know, like the strategy against Milwaukee is what it is. That book is out. But there is an element of, for a team that needs to kind of prove its bona fides in terms of on-court problem solving,

in terms of navigating, high-level defenses and really good teams, those kinds of games are promising. That they come in, they have a very clear game plan of what they want to do. Their guards are able to get into all the stuff they want to get into,

and they just wreck a team like Milwaukee from the three-point line, basically doubling Milwaukee, a team that isn't shy about shooting threes itself in terms of three-point makes in that game. That's pretty huge. And then some of these recent wins, too, and we'll see how they do without Conley coming up,

but beating the Pacers without one of their lead guards. Really, I mean, I think arguably their best guard this season. I think Conley has had that over me. Mitchell that he's really been driving so much of what they do. So to get wins without some of their best players, that's going to be a telltale sign coming up, especially as John alluded to, the depth beyond eight, unless you're a real big George Nyang head. It can be a little grim. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So we'll see that get tested, I'm sure. But yeah, I mean, Denver's the one interesting thing as far as this jazz team. They did win at Denver their other game

there. But Yokic is a little bit the kryptonite for Rudy, I think, in the sense that Gobert has to go out to the three point line with him. And then that can potentially open some other things up if you have different mismatches against their size and whatnot. And he's really the only center where he's so good inside that Gobert has to be the one guarding him. But he's so good from outside that Gobert has to go all the way out to the three point line on him. So that's the one playoff matchup that you worry about a little, I think still if you're Utah as the Nuggets. I would love to see those teams get one more crack at each other in the playoffs. Just for that match, you know, put the guard stuff aside, you know, with how great they were last

year. But, you know, as competitive as Gobert is, as feisty as he can be and being frustrated by Yokic night after night in that way, I want to see, you know, seven more games or so of that. Definitely. That's the other component to this conversation, right? We could say, like, a team is just killing it in the regular season and thus they are elite level contenders, but we could also project ahead and start thinking about some of the playoff matchups, which is like, it's kind of really tough to stop yourself from doing so. And the one maybe sore spot you kind of target there is the Royce O'Neill wingstopper

spot. Are we concerned that that is going to catch up to them in the playoffs? Is that even a spot that they can upgrade on before the deadline, considering it seems like every other team in the league would like an upgrade at that situation? Yeah, I mean, they have a tough time making trades from this point. They don't have a lot to put in in terms of contracts. They just have like all minimum guys. And they don't have a lot asset wise because they used it to trade for Clarkson and Conley and dump some centers they didn't want and, you know, make the other moves they've done the last two years. So they're probably not going to be able to do much at this point. Maybe they get a buyout guy. You know, that's that's probably the type of thing they're

looking at. To me, Royce O'Neill on the defensive end is probably less of a concern than, I mean, I thought he got the yips during the playoffs last year. I thought that was the bigger issue that he was turning down shots and just kind of gumming things up in a way that you don't usually see with the jazz offense. I think that's definitely the point, especially like the difference between Royce O'Neill and, say, a Torrey Craig type player theoretically, is that he can handle the ball a little bit. He can give you a little bit of supplementary ball handling, but he needs to take those shots. He has to, when he's open, take those shots. In terms of defensively,

whatever you're giving up to, you know, especially since we're talking about this playoff conversation, a Kauai Leonard or a LeBron James or the kinds of guys he's going to have to guard, I think it's less about how do we upgrade that spot and more how do we overcome it? Like, how can we on the other side of the floor just hit enough shots, put up enough points that we're overcoming that deficit? Because as John laid out, the trade really is. isn't there in terms of what they can make this season, they have to learn to live what they have. And what they have is a perimeter rotation

that to start is 6-1, 6'1, 6-foot, and 6-4, and that's going to cause problems in the half court. It's going to cause problems in transition when the matchups are jumbled. And all of a sudden, one of those guys has to deal with, like, a stampeding LeBron down the lane in a playoff series or something like that. They have to learn to live with that stuff.

But I think it really does come down more to can their offense be so potent that it neutralizes some of that concern. So we're saying jazz on the first, here with the Lakers, all in agreement. I mean, as much as anyone is right now. John is all the way in. Yeah, yeah, I mean, on that, yeah, I mean, I think it's like jazz,

jazz Lakers, clippers, and possibly Milwaukee in that first group. Okay, so that's interesting. Do you distinguish between the Lakers and some of those other teams as being on another level? I mean, we're splitting hairs here, but this is what sports conversations are. So do you see the Lakers as above those guys? or at this point they all have about the same amount of chance to win the title.

Well, I mean, the distinguishing feature of the Lakers, obviously, is that they won last year and the other teams didn't, right? So there is a degree of respect for that. And, you know, you still wonder if they're coasting a little bit. I mean, certainly these last two games, even though they technically won, both of them,

were not impressive. But they don't need to amass regular season wins. Like, that's, you know, that's nice and all. But, I mean, we've seen LeBron do this before. It's like, oh, okay, I'll just, you know, win 49 games and be the fourth seat or whatever and then blow everyone away in the playoffs. So I think there's a level of respect for the Lakers for that, that they've done it and they've proven it. And the Clippers, jazz, bucks all have recent prominent failures in contrast to that.

I realize I'm asking you to pick between Mike and Mark, and I'm sorry for putting you that in the situation. Well, I mean, Mark has a ring and Mike doesn't. So at this point, I'm okay going with Mike on that one. So, all right, let's talk about some of these other contenders here. What do we want to start with first? Do you want to start with the box just because we left off on them? Let's. So as the season goes on, I was pretty dubious about them, if only because at this point,

I've talked about this on another podcast, I only see the flaws with them. And it's a product of the fact that they were so successful before, and then they'd flamed out in the playoffs, obviously. but all I could see earlier in the season was Janice just like really cranking it up from three the whole getting to the top of the roller coasters and then just like waiting to shoot it and inevitably it clanks off the side of the rim and all that but as the season has gone on you just are reminded of how dominant they could be especially in these past two games for Janice where against the Pacers he was just distributing and racked up a ton of assists and was playing just within the flow

the offense. And then last night against Denver, he was beasting in a way that, like, I hadn't seen in a little while. And it was just a nice reminder of just, like, how physically dominant he is. It's patently clear, but it was a nice reminder to see it. John, where are you just, like, in general on the bucks? Are you worried about them long term, or do you think that's a little overblown? I think they're, I think they're the best team in the East, but I think whatever they do in the regular season is borderline irrelevant at this point. Because we've all seen them, we've seen them truck the whole league. in the regular season, right? So that's almost like a non-event for us, right? The question is, when you get into a playoff situation, can what they do at both ends replicate in the playoffs, when teams have the real opportunity to game plan for Janus wall up against them with their best big defender, especially when it's somebody who's really fairly capable of doing it, you know, when it's a Kauai Leonard or a bam out of bio on him.

And at the defensive end, is playing a drop enough, you know, or can they do other things and play other ways to take away some things from opposing offenses? Yeah, so this is really interesting because I feel like this is kind of the conversation around them now. They are only seventh in defense last year, past two seasons. They've been absolutely dominant. how much do we think, Rob, this is like a change in personnel versus the league catching up to drop coverage and basically just three point percentages,

if anything, catching up to the style of defense? Well, it's definitely both. And it's not just the change in personnel in terms of who the bucks brought in. You know, those are not good defensive players, generally the DJ Augustine's and the Bobby Portis and whatnot, but also just the extent of the rotation changes. Like this is a team that is relearning itself in a lot of ways.

defensively, trying to figure out if they even can play the same style of defense as competently as they did in the past with this new personnel. But at the same time, I think Mike Booneholtzer has shown some flexibility. I think the keyword here is some in terms of going to switches a little earlier in games, trying some different things a little earlier in these regular season games, which is the promising sign. Because as John laid out, we know that this can be a dominant, at least the Bucks as they were previously constructed, could be a dominant regular season team, could just destroy people

with their defense. But how do they get to the point where they can be more comfortable in a playoff setting, where they can feel like a team like the heat last year wouldn't just pick them apart with dribble handoffs and threes

and really stretching out what they do so effectively? So how do they get to that point? And I think that's kind of the ongoing philosophical discussion with the Bucks all year and it's going to be, and that applies to the offense as well

in terms of making some of those tradeoffs with are we okay with being the seventh to tenth best or defense in the regular season? And if that means we have more shooting and playmaking on the floor for the possessions that really count. John, where are you on the drop overall? Is this like a sign of like the end of that style of defense being like a pathway to something dominant? Or is this the case where like, I don't know, it's Bryn Forbes chasing guys over screens as opposed to George Hill?

The guy who was really good in that drop chasing behind people was Bledso. I thought Bledsoe was really good at it. I thought Conitin and DeVicenzo were both really good at. And those two guys are still there. Drew Holiday is really good in other ways. He might not be as good chasing around that drop as Bledso was. But at the same time, no matter how good the guy is, I mean, you're just asking a lot of him to chase a guy around that screen and then contest a shot from behind him in a way that puts pressure

on the shooter. And if the guy doesn't take the bait and go inside the three point line, in other words, if he moves parallel to the line, which Miami kept doing a lot, rather than trying to go inside it, then I think the Bucks end up at a real disadvantage with that drop coverage. And that's why you just need other things in your bag. You can't just play one way against everyone. And part of what the regular season should be, especially for a team like the Bucks that knows before any games have been played that they're going to be a top two seed in the

East, that you use it as a lab to experiment with some things and figure out what your team can do in the playoffs and what they can't. And rather than the Bucks, I think, tried to play one system and optimize it and played as well as they could. And that really helped them amass regular season wins. But in critical moments, the last two playoffs, they weren't adaptable. I have another question for you, John, on the Bucks three-point defense specifically. You know, we talked about Utah who is a team who takes a lot of threes and fittingly

defends the three point line really aggressively because they have Rudy. What do you make of teams that philosophically are a little more imbalanced? Like Milwaukee has been where they want to take lots of threes because they value that shot, but they've also given up lots of threes, which shows a different kind of value system, I think, for their defense. Yeah, I mean, I think Milwaukee is a little, tries to be a little picky about who they give up the threes to and how they happen. In other words, they're okay with above the break threes.

I think the ones from the corners are really the ones they're trying to take away. And they're okay if your big man launches as many as he wants. They want to take away open threes from the guards. At the same time, I mean, they just end up giving up a ton, and you only have so much control over who's taking them. And so it is interesting philosophically to see teams play that way, where they're like, want to get up lots of threes, but then at the defensive end, they're like,

no middle, no middle. It's like, okay, like, what do we, what's, what's our value system here exactly? So it does, it does feel a little inconsistent, right? Well, I guess the question is, if they were to move away from that, if they were to play perhaps more switching, what does that lead Brooke Lopez? And in particular, like, if it's not Brooke Lopez, then who is it? Yeah. And that, that's one of the things that I think stops them a little bit from, from going further down that road. I mean, they had Marvin Williams last year and maybe could have done a little more switching with him. Because having him in a drop was kind of like, what are we doing here? And because he's not protecting the rim anyway. So it's like, you know, why? You know, if they could get somebody like

like that again, because I think Bobby Portis in that same scheme is going to be even more vulnerable than Lopez. Or you play Janus at five. And then the issue with Janus at five, is that they probably need one more guy that you can really trust as a perimeter player at the end of games. You're really turning the, you know, Pat Conaton, Dante DiVincenzo, either or into now a both conversation,

which, I mean, I've been kind of bullish on DeVincenzo and what he's shown. We just saw him against the Nuggets, for example, come up with a huge crunch time steal. Like, he just makes those heady, intuitive plays, I think, that works with that starting group, or now finishing group, as it were. But playing both those guys at once,

you know, if it's not working, it would really, really be not working. Yeah, and in the playoffs, teams are going to dare both those guys to shoot, so it could end up even be in Forbes. Right. And I guess the question there is like, so if we're saying they don't have that wing guy on their roster now, how do they get it considering the price they paid for holiday? And like, the natural assumption would be DeVincenzo.

And then you're just like stealing from Peter to pay Paul if you wanted to use him to get someone else there. So it's really kind of a complex situation. but the one thing I thought was interesting. Pat Conantin was saying this the other day. He was just basically like the losing and the struggles they're having earlier in this season are actually going to benefit them in the long term in ways that it didn't last year because they didn't have to have faced adversity. And now that's the whole like just sports conversation of like do you really need to lose in the regular season in order to turn on the playoffs to really just like to face like that adversity. On the other hand, I kind of,

buy it because it does feel like they're searching for stuff a little bit earlier than before. Like even last night against Denver, it seems like Middleton is just kind of excelling as a playmaker. He had 12 assists on three turnovers. It just seems like the chemistry he's building with Janus late in games has been particularly impressive. There's one just like alley-up to Janus in order to basically win the game or just go up by 10, I think it was. And so I do wonder if what they're going through now will ultimately have the long-term effects

that we're hoping for. Do you think Pat Connotton just been like reading a lot of Joseph Campbell or something this season? I mean, he's the emotional center for this team. I am glad you brought up Middleton, though, because, Justin, when you were saying earlier, you were starting to feel more optimistic about the Bucks. I feel like it's okay to admit that you were radicalized by Chris Middleton being a walking supernova. I mean, it's true. He's already shooting 52, 45, 94 with better playmaking.

It just seems like he actually has another level that if they really want to, they can tap into. And it seems like they're starting to kind of do it. I thought Holiday would kind of be the guy there toward the end of games. But it seems like maybe it's just Middleton acting as the de facto closer with Yana setting screens and just being a giant, like, physically gifted big man, which is like still pretty amazing. And that's one of the things. I mean, if you play Yonnas at 5 and now you're using him as a screener, I mean, that's tough for defenses deal with. Well, especially, I mean, we should note on Drew Holiday, too, it appears, at least based on what Chris Middleton said, that Drew may have tested positive for COVID. We have no idea what the long-term implications of that are going to be, when he's going to be back, how healthy he's going to be.

They're going to have an interesting period here to navigate without him. The initial returns, just because Chris and Janus were so good in this first game, we're promising. But it's a different thing when you're talking going potentially weeks without one of your best players. We'll see. You know, it's kind of an undone. It's not like a broken finger where you're like, yep, three weeks. You know, so we'll see how long they're without him. But yeah, that's going to be another test for sure.

Yeah, this is actually the litmus test. Conantin was referring to. So what do we think about the buck's big picture here on the same tier with the Lakers? No. They are first in net rating, first in offense, I should mention. Yeah, I know. I mean, I think they're so far ahead of everyone else in the east that you almost have to say, Like, okay, maybe I wouldn't pick them over these three teams in the West in a head-to-head

finals matchup, but their chances of getting to the finals are probably better because they don't have to run the same gauntlet. 100%. I'm in on those lines, too. I would stop short if only because I want to see them prove it. And it's like they can't really do anything about that. It really comes down to the playoffs. But I am more optimistic than I was, but I'm still dubious enough to not put them on the same

tier with the Lakers and the Jazz. Who in the East has proven it, though? I would say that they haven't proven it, but just the sheer talent that the Nets have is unavoidable. It's like if they could just figure out a couple of things, I just feel like they could just be incredible. If all those guys actually play more than two games together, I feel like they'd be incredible.

It would help. It's really hard to avoid that. The offensive talent is just brilliant. Well, I guess another team kind of similar as the Bucks, just in terms of maybe the regular season, not giving as much info. as we'd probably like, the clippers here.

A little bit of a rough spot here following a road trip. I believe they lost two in a row. Yeah. No Paul George in either game, but yes. Yeah, George has this toe injury. Beverly has been out for, what, eight games, two weeks or something like that.

I think my biggest concern is it seems like Kauai is starting to slow down a little bit. I don't know if it was just the road trip or the fact that George wasn't there. It just seems like he started. starting to show signs of fatigue and even Ty Lou, I believe, after the game the other day, spoke to that. And I wonder if George is out for a prolonged period, how much that affects

that whole situation. And then it gets back to the whole conversation about the Clippers. Are they all on the same page? Do they have enough time to get on the same page? John, where are you just generally on the Clippers this year? The way I felt coming into the year was that on paper, they were the best team. and they just needed to prove it on the court. And I think that's where I still am with them. They're shooting like crazy. That may calm down a little bit.

You know, I don't know if Paul George is going to be 48% from three all year. But I think Kauai's taking another step as a playmaker. They're not being as careful with him in terms of the load management. So there's a chance that catches up to them. the year goes on. It's interesting you say he's looked a little sluggish the last couple games from that perspective. Still probably some areas where they could get more. You know, Marcus Morris has kind of gotten off to his slow start. Luke Kinnard hasn't really gotten going yet. So you still think to yourself that maybe this team could actually get to another level

even from here. I think Batum's fit in really nicely. I think they're one of those teams that you get in a playoff series, they can match up big, they can match up small, they can play different arrangements on you. And so they're not a team that's going to get sort of caught out the way the bucks did where they have their one alignment. And if they can't match up against you in that one alignment, they're screwed. So I think from that perspective, they're in a good spot. I mean, I just think they're a really good team top to bottom, maybe not like super dominant, but I still think on you you line teams up on paper and you ask yourself, why wouldn't the Clippers win?

Well, especially that combination of being that successful shooting so far and also being a really low turnover team. To me, that's always such a successful playoff combination. I mean, you know, depending on the variance of the shooting, of course. What I'm wondering about, especially after just seeing Deere and Fox really picked them apart the other night, and it's a little different with Reggie Jackson out there. as opposed to Pat Beverly. But if that's a potential concern point,

we know the wing defense is really strong, we know who Sir Jabaka, who is fit in so beautifully with them, can be as a help defender, obviously they're giving up little sides inside, but is the speedy point guard archetype a problem for them? Because even Pad Bev, honestly, in the playoffs of late, can be a really foul prone player, can pick up two and three fouls in the first half really easily,

and doesn't have the lateral foot speed of some of these guys. I don't know who that imperils them against out west. you know, Mike Conley even might be one of the better point guards of this group. I guess Dennis Schrooter could be pretty dangerous. He's like a blow-by guy against the wrong kind of matchup. But I'm watching kind of the point guard matchups for the clippers and how they want to deal with those. If it's just a point guard that's giving them trouble, I think they would probably switch Paul George on them in a playoff game.

The issue is more if you're playing against a team with multiple threats and Paul George and Kauai Leonard have to be on other people. and then you play a team like Utah is a good example where the scoring talent is so distributed that okay now what we're going to put our worst perimeter defender on Jordan Clarkson right and then now you might have a problem right so that that could be a potential issue yeah perhaps my pause is a product of having to watch Reggie Jackson so much over the Fads couple of days because after Beverly is gone, it gets pretty bleak there. And I guess that's a concern long term. I mean, Bev has had some injuries over the past two years. And so I wonder if they're

a little bit more shaky than you would like in that situation. And I also wonder like, does it mean more Lou Williams? And then that gets into the dicey conversation of like, we're back into the playoffs and wondering how much Lou can actually play. It's funny. He's developing this chemistry with Zubach that he kind of had with Harold. And it's almost like a guy trying to like recreate the past. Like I could picture him wearing like his Chicago band t-shirt, you know, just just wanting to relive the good old days. And it just seems like he's a little out of place there.

And I wonder if the playoffs expose whether or not like he can be an integral part of what they want to be in the playoffs. Well, I mean, if they make a trade, he's the most logical piece to be in it too because he's, you know, expiring decent money and whatnot. So that's going to be interesting to see if the clippers decide to get one more sort of robust perimeter defender in their mix. That would be one thing they could probably accomplish at the trade deadline. I mean, they're kind of shorn of assets, but they might be able to pull that off.

Are there any obvious names here? Because we keep talking about the same player. And I do wonder if there's going to be a bit of a competition there. Is there some obvious guy out there who's going to shake loose and be able to fill some of these roles? I think there's going to be less of it than usual because of the play in tournament. And so that's going to make a lot of these teams that otherwise would be more inclined to sell, think about Standing Pat. So, you know, I think the two teams that will probably be selling would be Oklahoma City, certainly, you know, George Hill, Al Horford.

And then Minnesota, if they had anything, people wanted to buy. And Detroit, as we saw already, with, we saw it with Derek Rose. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something with Wayne Ellington closer to the trade deadline, maybe one or two other guys. I think the one where you wonder if the shoe is going to drop at some point is Orlando. Because they have so many injuries now. You know, do they do sort of the soft tank at this point? You know, kind of unload everyone except Vouch.

keep the, you know, try to get a high pick this year and then reload in the summer and then really try to make a bigger run when Foltz is back and they have some of these other pieces. Yeah, one name I've seen come up, and I don't know the plausibility of this, especially now that the Raptors have started to put something together a little bit, at least offensively, is Kyle Lowry. John, do you think we see a Kyle Lowry move this season? I seem connected to the Clippers just because they're basically Raptors West at this point. Yeah, I mean, he'd be perfect there. Now, how the Clippers are doing a salary match on a $35 million deal, I don't really see. Doesn't really make sense.

That's an interesting one to monitor because Toronto has some tough decisions coming up this offseason. Obviously, they set themselves up for cap room expecting a better free agent market than the one that's there. So unless they can persuade Kauai to return, I don't know what they're going to do with that cap space. So at that point, do you just resign Kyle Lowry for another year? or do you try to cash in your chips, some of your chips now, and know that you're just going to be a blah sort of first round and out playoff team this year either way, and then try to go for it a little more next year with those younger guys you have there and then whatever pieces you can get

from a Lowry deal and free agency? Yeah, I wonder if New Orleans also playing a little bit better of late. It also kind of complicates things. You assumed like Reddick and maybe even Lonzo would appear on the market, but I don't know. They've kind of turned it around a little bit or at least enough where they can convince themselves that they're still in the race.

Well, the line between 14th in the West and 10th in the West is so thin right now. I could see any of those teams talking themselves into pretty much anything in terms of the play-in possibilities. Yeah, exactly. It's going to take a little longer for this to shake out. And, I mean, it always does, but the problem is the bar is at 10

instead of at 8 now. So the team that's in 12th is, feeling a lot better about themselves than they were a year ago. And so that's going to take some teams out of the out of the buyout situation and out of the trade situation. Okay. So where were we on the Clippers just to wrap that up? We're saying same tiers Lakers? I'm a believer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm the Clippers, Lakers, Jazz Bucks are my tier one. and, you know, Brooklyn's like conditionally 1A. Okay.

Are there any other teams that would be in this conversation? I guess it would be Philly? I think Philly and possibly Boston are like your next, you're next to. And I'm sure Denver will, you know, say what about us, I guess. But, you know, Philly's been good enough, especially in the games Embedit is played. And it just looks so much more sound in terms of having actual shooting. so I think there's more reason to believe in them. Boston, obviously they have the two stars on the wing.

They're just so shaky after those guys. I mean, Kemba has some good games in some games where he doesn't really look like he has it. The depth at the backcourt spots, oh my goodness. They got to do something about that. Not really getting a lot from their center spot either. I don't really understand the Tristan Thompson contract. So they got some work to do in Boston. Now, they have the ability to trade themselves out of it a little bit.

bit. So it could still get interesting there. And then obviously Brooklyn, I think everyone knows a deal. I mean, just amazing offense and will they ever stop anybody? With Philly, I wondered to, you know, we were talking about Milwaukee's defense, potentially taking a little step back this season overall. And, you know, the heat aren't where they were defensively. A lot of these other, even the Celtics, these other Eastern Conference teams have taken a little bit of a step down on defense. Does that release some of the pressure on Philly to be a great offensive team if some of the defenses they're running up against,

for one, have no matchup for Joel Embed to begin with. And then if they can just kind of be competent and, you know, Philly can let their defense win games. I wonder if that's enough of an edge in a playoff setting. Yeah, it's still going to be interesting, I think, with Philly with the non-embied minutes, because I still don't think he's a guy even in the playoffs that's going to be playing 45 minutes a game.

You know, is having Dwight in those minutes going to be enough on a team that already doesn't have a lot of, facing. That's the one you wonder about a little, if those minutes are just going to kill him. Dwight isn't a terrible backup center at this point, but the Dwight Ben Simmons combination. That's the problem. You're playing it with Simmons and Tybal and, you know, like you're playing it with other guys who also don't shoot.

Yeah. I also wonder if in the playoffs we're going to start wondering about Seth Curry on defense. Like I was watching them against the nets the other day and Hardin. I mean, of course he's going to do this, but he was just hunting for those switches. Oh, yeah. they will definitely be hunting him. Yeah. And so all of a sudden, if they need to take him off the court, where is the

spacing going to come from? So maybe they need an extra shooter with a little bit more size and defense. And maybe they would be a little bit more of a force there. But I just want to circle back quickly before we go, just on Boston, because that's a curious one. I wouldn't naturally just pick them. Is that just purely because of their two stars are just so out of this world good right now? Yeah, basically.

I mean, it's not the rest of the team. I mean, and I think there's, you know, there's a little respect, too, for the fact. I mean, they've been to, what, three of the last four Eastern Conference Finals. So there's enough there, I think, in the playoffs when you can play Brown Tatum and smart 40-plus minutes. And, you know, there's less playing time going to the, you know, Teagues and Thompsons and whatever of the world that they could ramp up a little at that point. Well, and mechanically speaking, I think they have a little more capacity. to make a move than some of these other teams too. Yeah, they do, because they haven't burned through their trade assets either, so definitely.

Well, okay, just quickly because this is, I think, in a weird way, becoming one of the more defining moves or non-moves that affected this season. Where were you on the Miles Turner to Boston stuff? Because I feel like at that point, I've talked about this a lot. So, like, it almost became a referendum on not only Miles, but just like the center position in general. And now it looks like it was a bad move to not accept him. I was pretty surprised they didn't want to do that.

Because my understanding, it was Turner and McDermott, and they were going to get a first out of it. I'd kind of surprised they didn't want to do that. It seemed like everyone was overreacting the playoffs situation and just worried about like, you know, he wasn't tough enough, yada, yada, yada, but like, God, he's a stretch five, three-ndy guy, and obviously he's now up there.

Same age profile as their other guys, too. I know. It's not like he's 30. So to get a young big of that caliber, like, you know, I think they let the great be the enemy of the good a little bit, you know? And then to turn around and sign Tristan Thompson for $9 million, just I don't get it. I don't get it. All right.

That's a good place to stop here. John, thank you so much for joining us today. All right. Thanks for having me. All right. We will be back next week. Until then. I'll see you then.