The Ringer NBA Show - Who Is the Real MVP? With Kevin O'Connor (Ep. 96)

Episode Date: April 11, 2017

The Ringer's Chris Vernon and Kevin O'Connor discuss the end of the NBA regular season, the Heat's playoff push (6:00), the Bulls' best lineup (11:00), the best deal of the season (16:00), the underrated Clippers (22:00), LeBron's MVP argument (32:00), Westbrook vs. Harden (38:00), and the NBA awards banquet (48:00). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Download the Tunein app for free and start listening today. Welcome to The Ringer NBA show. I'm Chris Vernon. And joining me as he does every Tuesday is Kevin O'Connor from the ringer.com. Kevin! What's going on, Chris? We get a fun end of the season coming up. We do have a fun end of the season coming up.

because there is still a lot to be decided in the Eastern Conference, not much to be decided. In fact, only one thing to be decided in the Western Conference, and that's home court advantage between the Clippers and Utah. I'll get to that in a little bit, but first, it appears as if now, outside of something strange taking place, I think the Celtics are going to end up with that number one seed. The Celtics have the bucks.

Cleveland is at the Raptors. and so if Cleveland won and Boston lost, Cleveland could end up with the number one C. But you and I talked, we had a long discussion about this a few weeks ago of whether or not it matters. And I do think, I think it matters to Boston. I don't think it really matters to Cleveland.

Is that fair? That's totally fair, Chris. I'm with you on that. Yeah. And what about the two versus the four, I'm sorry, the two versus the one in terms of possible second round matchup. That's where it gets a little bit interesting. Because do you think it is a big difference if you are Cleveland to have to play Toronto instead of Washington?

Because that's who you'd draw if you're the one seed. You'd catch Washington in the second round. Which let me just go ahead and say, I am so in favor of Boston holding on to the one because you've got that, you know, we're so devoid of great rivalry. and it feels like the Boston-Washington thing could turn unbelievable in a second-round matchup. Totally. I think it definitely would be, especially with the Wizards doing their funeral thing earlier this season. Those teams have kind of bad blood between each other. And that's exciting for our first-round series matchup because early in the playoffs,

oftentimes I think, you know, especially in the West, a lot of the series really aren't that close. Like you kind of know who's going to win. whereas so you're looking for a sub-storylines. In the West we have Hardin versus Westbrook in the east. We're going to have potentially Celtics versus Wizards in the second round. And that's something to really look forward to depending on if the Wizards win that series and if the Celtics win too because those teams hate each other. And there's not a lot of hate out there in the NBA these days with so many friends on each other's teams.

So while I say we want that to take place, Cleveland, do you think there is, a radical difference between them having to play Toronto or them having to play Washington in terms of level of competition that they would get. I kind of feel like Toronto has the goods. Like if Toronto is playing a game seven in Cleveland, I think I would be less surprised than if Washington was playing a game seven in Cleveland. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think Toronto presents a more difficult matchup.

So when we say the one or two C doesn't make a difference for Cleveland, Cleveland, I think we mean in terms of home court advantage, right? Whereas for matchups, I think it does make a difference. And I do think Toronto presents a more difficult matchup, especially with the way their defense has been since the all-star break. PJ Tucker is unbelievable. I love watching that guy. How can you not love watching PJ Tucker shut down a guy for a full 24 seconds on a possession?

It's really fun to watch. Then with Lowry back, I think Lowry is starting to integrate himself, which is good that they got him back before the playoffs, so they wouldn't have to go through that transition. in the first round. So the fact is, you know, by the second round, the Raptors could be clicking on all cylinders, whereas by that point, will Cleveland have their defense sorted out? Maybe they could, but it's also possible that's something

that doesn't get sorted out at all throughout the playoffs. So they're just going to have to lean on their offense. And the big thing for Cleveland is last year, they kind of were able to cruise through the first two rounds. This year, it doesn't look like they're going to be able to. Maybe round one they can cruise a little bit, but starting in round two, They have to be clicking on top cylinders at that point.

I agree with you completely. And I'll say I watched that game last night because I'm rooting for the heat to get there. Obviously, they're going to need a loss by either the Bulls or Indiana. But just the story of somebody starting 10 and 31 and then ending up in the playoffs would just be, or 11. I'm sorry, they were 11 and 30. I don't want to skirt them. They were 11 and 30. And according to Elias,

unsurprisingly, they have the best record of any team that has ever been 19 games under 500 for a season. I mean, they're 29 and 11 in their last 40 games. That's not a small sample size, right? When you're 29 and 11 in their last 40 games. And I'm kind of rooting for them to get all the way there. And it took overtime last night and overcoming, I don't know if you saw this, friggin Darren Williams was like Utah Jazz Prime Darren William where did that come from? God bless.

That's hilarious. He was like, I was like. It was like a time machine. I know. And you know what? I love better time for Cleveland. And I love down the stretch too, right? So they appear to blow it does Miami by the four point play James Johnson with just a horrible foul against Darren.

William's. He gets a four-point play. But then there's like 35 seconds left. And they, I mean, everything about the way Miami played that out was perfect. They run the play and get Tyler Johnson streamlining to the basket to his left, hard drive to the basket, gets fouled, knocks down the free throws. And, I mean, it's the perfect two for one, too, right? Because now they end up with their, they end up with the two for one so they can get the two possessions out of those last 34 seconds. You know, after the totally goofy play down the stretch, I was glad they got it done and at least it gives us some serious drama.

You want to talk about pressure. You've got the Pacers. They can clinch at home with a win versus the Hawks. The Bulls can clinch at home against if they beat the nets. And you would typically just say, oh, well, they'll just beat the nets. But the nets have, like, somehow won four of six, including what? wins over the hawks and the bulls. So that like now doesn't look like a total gimme.

And there's a lot of pressure on both Indiana and the Bulls, whereas the heat would have to get a home win against the Wizards to put themselves in a position to get there. And it's going to be fascinating to see what happens because I'm with you, Chris, just with a story, it would be fun to see Miami make the playoffs. I think I don't know if they're really as strong of a team as Indiana or Chicago. I mean, maybe they're better than Chicago.

but at the same time the story's too good the story is too good man i just think it's too good of a feel-good story for them to miss the playoffs the way that the way they've been these past couple months the emergence of guys like james johnson deion waiters goren drudgeitch is having a great year son white side's having a great season that that team has a lot of fun players who have gotten better this year and i think it would be great for them to get into the playoffs because really you know i think in past years you could have made the argument that hey it would be better off to miss the playoffs so you can get a pick at the back end of the lottery. But this year, I think the drop off and the draft happens a little bit before that. So it's all about making

the playoffs. And that's all that matters. And I would love to see Miami get in. As for their chances, it's really hard to say. Like you said, Chris, going through the scenarios, I think the odds probably aren't in their favor. But at the same time, those Brooklyn Nets, man, they play hard. It wouldn't surprise me if they win against the Bulls. Okay. If you are a Celtics guy, and I was listening to our boss, Bill Simmons, his mailbag podcast that he just did. And he was talking about how the Celtics haven't played good in five or six weeks. And the only team he feels really good about being able to beat is the Pacers and kind of acted like the Bulls could be a nightmare. And maybe the heat could be a big problem.

Do you think that Bill's just chicken littling it? Or do you think that those teams really would be a problem for ball? Like, do you think Miami and or the Bulls could put the fear of God into Boston in the first round? I don't know about the fear of God. But I think there would be a little bit of fear because, you know, Bill's right that the Celtics haven't been, you know, quite as what you would hope at this point of the season. This is where you hope they really start to get hit a stride hitting into the playoffs and they've really sputtered. But at the same time, I mean, look, they have the better team. And usually over a seven-game series, the better team wins.

And I think, you know, even if Miami puts them in a six-game series or Indiana pushes them to five, I think Boston really has the advantage, no matter how long the series goes, just because they have the better team and the better talent. So, yeah, there's a little, there's reason to be nervous about an upset happening because of history with Isaiah Thomas getting contained in the playoffs. But look, they get the better team, and you're going to be feeling good in any of those matchups. Well, the nightmare, as he alluded to, would be A, Rondo's revenge, and B, Jimmy Butler, the guy that a lot of Boston fans think they should have traded for. So that's why it creates this total nightmare scenario if the Bulls were able to give the Celtics a problem and or knock them off.

I wonder if Rondo's going to come back. I know there was a report yesterday that he could be done for the regular season, but there was no definitive word if he's actually going to be done with the hand injury he has. And if it does come back, I wonder how much that would affect him. I think they're better when they don't have their top three alphas on the floor at the same time. Jimmy Butler, Dwayne Wade, and Rajan Rondo. I think they're better with just two of them. So I wonder if there would be a way for Fred Hoyberg to effectively, you know, tweak his rotations to have two of them on the floor the majority of the time,

rather than three. Can you imagine if the Bulls have one game to win to get into the playoffs and they lose to the friggin' nets? Oh, my God. That would be unbelievable. Those nuts are playing really hard, though, man. They've been not good, but they've been average. And that's saying a lot for the Brooklyn Nets.

They've been average. But Kevin, if I told you, all right, so maybe like, it is weird because their record is so dreadful that they can actually play hard the rest of the way and it doesn't matter. unlike some of these other teams like Phoenix that are, they'd be fine with losing 50 in a row at this point, if that's what it took. Tank, tank, tank. Yeah. Well, so here's the thing.

Brooklyn, their place is already solidified, so they are like kind of playing it out and playing hard. So, but of the teams, if you said, hey, we've got one game at home win and we're in the playoffs, Brooklyn still has to be very high on your list if you were choosing opponents. That's why I'm saying it would be totally devastating to drop that game. Yeah, they're definitely like, you know, if the Bulls could draft their last opponent, the Nets would probably be like the fourth or fifth pick. I think you would probably take Phoenix, the Lakers, the Magic,

maybe you'd even take the Nix, then probably the Nets. They're still in the bottom five or six of teams you would draft the face if you need to make the playoffs. But that team's playing well, dude. They have a great story. I mean, look, the end of the season doesn't matter quite as much for a bad team like them when they have no incentive to lose. But at the same time, with Jeremy Lynn back healthy, even before these last two months earlier in the year, they were better with Lynn. They

weren't quite like a 20 win team. They were more like a 25 win team, which isn't saying a lot, but every increment matters. And I think what we're seeing in the closest season does matter for them heading into the summer and their outlook for next season. All right, Kevin, I want to ask you about some of the stuff that has taken place in the Western conference over the course of the last week and what is left to still be decided. We also got to get into this MVP deal because you wrote about LeBron James this week. We'll do that after these words. Major League Baseball is finally back.

And as the new season gets underway, the Ringer podcast network has baseball fans covered with the Ringer MLB show playing for free on Tune's app for the month of April. Download the tune in app for free and listen to Ben Lindberg and Michael Bauman break down baseball's biggest. stories throughout the opening month of the season. And for a bonus for Ringer listeners, the Ringer podcast network has partnered with Tune In to give baseball fans a free 60-day trial of Tune-in Premium to listen to every live live home call of every MLB game around the league. Catch the Ringer MLB show only on Tune-in for the entire month for free. When you upgrade to Tune-in Premium, you can listen to live MLB games.

Just go to Tune-in.com slash Ringer and subscribe. Download the Tune-in app for free and start listening to the Ler. Bringer NBA show also brought to you by Seat Geek. The NBA playoff chase is heating up, and Seat Geek is the smartest, easiest way to get tickets to your favorite team's games. With Seat Geek's seamless mobile experience, you can buy and sell tickets in just two tabs. Seatgeek helps you find the best seats at the best price is fully guaranteed. There's nothing like being in the stadium for the biggest plays of the year,

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Best of all, our listeners get a $20 rebate off their Seatkeek purchase, their first one. To get your $20 rebate off tickets, download the Seatgeek app, go to $1,000. go to the settings tab and click add promo code. Enter the promo code Ringer NBA. Seekek will send you $20 once you've made your first ticket purchase. Download the Seekek app and enter the promo code Ringer NBA today. All right, Kevin, so the thing that has been decided in the Western Conference over the course of the past couple of weeks, or rather the last week, is Portland solidified themselves as the number eight seed in the Western Conference.

They're in the playoffs. They obviously are looking down the barrel of a gun having to play Golden State, but it's still an achievement to make the playoffs. And I think we've got to give credit to the GM there, Neil O'Shea, because there's no doubt that that NERCITS deal is, it's got to be the deal of the season in terms of in-season change performance, actually drastically improve your team. He nailed that one.

for whatever reason. And we've talked a lot about, you know, Nurkich and Yokic. And it's one of those weird things that Yokic got, you know, the space that he needed and performed like an unbelievable, like, All-Star level player. But the Nerkich thing, it worked out great for the player. It worked out great for the city. And I think, you know, that's what you want. Like in season, when things aren't going your way, your GM to be able to pull off a deal

that really improves you. The guy did it. I think that's got to be the award for the best end season move, right? Definitely, you know, in terms of how Nurkich has performed since it's being traded to the Blazers. I think a lot of credit needs to go to him, too. He really turned it on. I mean, I loved him as a prospect coming out of the draft in 2014, and he has totally failed to meet my expectations, and I think a lot of that's on him.

I don't think his effort has been there the past two and a half years of the Nuggets. But with Portland, he's really playing his ass off. He is playing so hard on the floor in both ends, and he's doing everything that he did playing overseas that made him such an enticing prospect on the first place. So big ups to Nurkich for, you know, playing hard and a lot of credit to the Blazers front office for taking a chance on the guy that they viewed as undervalued in Denver, who only needed a new change of scenery and a new opportunity to really flourish as a player. I hope he sustains the success and comes back healthy. And that one gets a little bit lost because we obviously talk so much about everything that happens at the actual deadline. line, right? That's where all the attention goes. All the articles are written. And so anything that doesn't happen on that exact day doesn't get many times as much attention. But a lot of

these GMs, I thought, made really good moves. Clearly, you know, Toronto improved their stock for the playoffs with getting Abacca and with getting PJ Tucker and Oklahoma City with getting Doug McDermott and with getting Todd Gibson. Like the only one that, I think you would say the one that it, I'm sorry, who was the other one that you were going to mention? I just love Dougie Fresh's nickname. Oh, Dougie Fresh. I think it's fair to say. If we're doing the whole, and I think there were a lot of good deals made that improved teams that needed slight improvement or at least gave them a better chance when it comes to playoff time.

But if we're doing the whole Nirkits was the best one, what do we do with the Pelicans grade? Listen, we both, and I think a lot of people thought they acquired boogie, they're going to be the eighth seed. You know what I mean? This is kind of crazy because Portland, they attained the big guy that pushed them into being a playoff team, whereas the Pelicans got one of the top five scores in the NBA. Listen, if the whole idea was we're trying to make the playoffs, that thing is clearly a big bust, at least for this season. Yeah, definitely. I wrote about that last week on the ringer for like bad team power rankings. And it alluded to how, you know, that deal has completely fallen short of expectations. And at the same time, though, I mean, it's hard to integrate a superstar during the middle of the season. I mean, that's kind of rare, right? There's not a lot of instances where you see a star level player changed teams during the year. So look, I think I think Elvin Gentry, the coach of the Pelicans has really started to integrate Boogie more so over the last few weeks. we're seeing more of those unique four or five pick and rolls with cousins handling the ball

and Davis setting the screen and cousins is able to pass the lob to Davis or he can drive and score or he can kick it out to Davis who's able to pop for a deep midrange two or three. I think, look, give these guys a summer, give Gentry a whole summer to really work with his coaching staff and find the best ways to use those guys together. And I think next season, the outlook looks pretty good for them. It's hard not to look at a situation with two of the best big men in basketball and not feel pretty good about the possibilities. That doesn't mean it no work. We talked about this before how there was a possibility that this could be disastrous.

It still could be heading into next year. But at the same time, there's plenty of reasons to feel hope for those two, even though the Pelicans have completely fallen short of meeting the great expectations. We and almost everybody set for them at the trade deadline. Yeah, I think it's just a lesson in us giving trade grades immediately. Right? Because the idea... You can't do them. No, if you would have told anybody, which deal do you think is better for their team?

The Pelicans acquiring Boogie Cousins or Portland acquiring Yousef Nerkich. Everybody would... I mean, you get laughed off. Right? But it's still too early, for that matter. I mean, like two years from now, we might look back and say, oh, my God, that was the trade that changed the course of history for the Pelicans. The greatest trade we've ever seen.

That's what we might say two years from now. Or we could be saying, oh, God, Boogie left and free agency. Anthony Davis is going to be traded soon. We might be saying that, too. Buddy Hill is emerging into a star. Why would they do that trade? That's the way it could go. And I always think back to the article Bill Simmons wrote in December, I think it was,

the sliding doors of DeMarcus cousins. It was written through the lens of the Celtics. Like if the Celtics trade for boogie, they win all these championships. If they do trade for boogie, everybody gets fired and the team's a disaster. read that article through the lens of the pelicans, and it's still completely relevant, because it can go either way. We don't know how this is going to go.

And I'm really curious to see which way it does go, and a lot of it could have to do with the other moves that they make to put around those guys. Right. All right, I do want to ask you about the one other thing in the Western Congress before we get into the MVP deal, and that is I think, and this pains me to say it because I can't stand them,

I think the team that is the most, underrated amongst the general NBA thought consensus is the Clippers. I was reading yesterday. They are Kevin in games in which Chris Paul has played this year, okay, they have played 60 games. They have won 42 of them. They are 42 and 18 with Chris Paul in their lineup. They have won eight of their last 10.

They have won six in a row. So they are 42 and 18 with Paul in the lineup in those 60 games. They're 8 and 13 without him in the lineup. That would be good enough. With just him playing this year, they have won 70% of their games. Now, obviously, the Warriors have won 81%. The Spurs have won 75%. The Clippers would be third, and they would be ahead of Houston,

and they would be ahead of Boston and Cleveland. who are the respective one and two seeds in the Eastern Conference. And so is it fair for me to think, the Clippers aren't getting nearly enough attention because they're going into this playoffs with Chris Paul in their lineup. And if we're just talking about what they've looked like with him in their lineup, they've been the third best team in the NBA with him in their lineup. Why are we not talking about the Clippers being dangerous?

Is it just years gone by, fatigue, they've had their chances and haven't come, you know, they haven't been winning, they haven't won a lot of playoff series or what? I think that's exactly what it is, Chris. I really do. And I'm glad you brought them up for that particular reason because I think, you know, heading into the playoffs, we do need to talk about the Clippers and how they're performing as they head into this postseason.

Chris Paul's outstanding, right? I mean, I think the record, the record alone, it's like a simple stat, but that says it all. I think he's the most valuable player on that team. And this has been something I wrote about. before in terms of he's the guy that really makes that team go. You can live without Blake, but you cannot live without Chris Paul. And the fact he's playing at such a high level, it gives them a chance. And this year, as of now, they're healthy heading to the playoffs.

And hopefully for their sake, this year, they actually stay healthy throughout the playoffs because I think they have a chance. I think Utah's got an underrated team as well. I'm super intrigued by that four or five matchup between those two. I think that could easily go seven games and really be close. all the way through. And beyond that, though, if the Clippers did win, and if they're healthy heading into the second round,

I don't think they're going to beat Golden State. But at the same time, I would not rule them out making it a really, really close series because of the way they're playing. Blake Griffin this past month is really starting to hit threes at a high level. And look, it's a small sample size, just like 20 games or so over a month. But he's looking really good, man.

And when that three-point shot is going for him, it spreads the floor for the clippers and the half-course. And that's going to be super important come playoff time. They need spacing in the half court. They need to be able to play with space. And Blake Griffin being able to hit threes is a big part of that. And you would also have to have DeAndre just go crazy. Like I'm talking like 18 rebounds a night, 20, like just destroy Javall McGee or Pachulia or whoever they throw in there.

Yeah, exactly. In that first round series, DJ versus Ruego Bear, that will be fun too. Well, you know, you and I talked about this. I think I asked you last week, would it change your opinion dependent upon who got home court advantage in a Clippers, Utah series? And the Clippers have the Kings left. They're tied right now, but the Clippers have the Kings left and Utah has the Spurs left. And the Clippers have the tiebreaker. So I'm going to imagine that they take care of business against Sacramento, which enables them to, there's nothing Utah can do.

If the clippers beat the Kings, they're getting home court advantage. According to the basketball power index, that BPI thing, and plugging it in, it says home court advantage makes a big, big difference. Because if the clippers have home court advantage, or I'm sorry, if Utah has home court advantage against the clippers, it would give them a 52% chance of winning that series. If they don't, that number goes down to 42. So they go from being the slight, slight favorite to being the underdog simply based upon whether they would have to play that series at home or on the road. I think it does stand to reason, right? Have you ever been to Utah? I mean, damn, man, I couldn't even breathe for 24 hours.

I was like, I was chugging water and dehydrated and my body. I mean, it's not, like, that's real. That whole altitude thing is real. And so I wouldn't want to have to play extra games there. But what do you make of that? Do you buy the numbers? Because that's clearly just an objective, right, number that's being put it out there. That if Utah got home court advantage, they'd be favored to win.

And if they don't, they'd be favored to lose. I have a feeling the clippers are going to be favored either way, honestly. I think home court does matter a little bit, Chris. I don't know about 52% to 42%. but I do think, if we consider this a 50% series, like on neutral site, every game's played in like, I don't know, Texas, right? I think neutral site, 50, 50, 50 shot, maybe you give a slight edge to the clippers that they have home court, like 53% to 47%.

And maybe that flips the other way. And it's always kind of difficult to project on all of these different teams. Like, yeah, because what you can say is, all right, if I just took the, the clippers with Chris Paul, they'd be the third best team in the NBA. I mean, it's hard to, you got to kind of do that and delve into everybody. It's not like Utah has been without injury this year, right? They went through tons of injury. So, like, what is, if everybody was healthy for all of these teams, what's the best they could have

possibly been? And that's the hard thing to do, right? It's not totally fair for me to act like the clippers, if they had Chris Paul all year, would have been way better than the jazz because what if the jazz had everybody healthy, right? They're both really good teams. I mean, I actually think that's a super fun series and clearly total contrast of styles.

And nobody is going to be rooting for the frigging clippers. Right? Like, the jazz are going to be... Utah's a lovable team, Chris. Well, they're going to be the darling. Yeah, they have likable players. They have likable players, and they hadn't been in the playoffs since 2012. and I would say

29 fan bases resent the clippers. I would say that's probably true. I would say they're easily the most hated team in the NBA, wouldn't you? I don't know about most hated. Oh, sure. But they're up there.

They're up there. Let's say a team isn't picking their rival, like their art rival. Maybe then it's the clippers. But they're definitely in like the top three most hate. for sure. So I think people are going to be rooting for Utah and polling for them because they're the underdog story. They're the team that's gotten incrementally better each season and it's hard not to root for that team. All right. So let's get into this MVP thing.

I was reading your article on LeBron James that you put out on the ringer this week. The Cavs are the biggest burden on LeBron James' latest championship quest. And you'd really talked about their ability to be able to make it to the NBA finals or win another title. But it couldn't help but view a lot of the stuff. that you wrote through the prism of the MVP race. And the first thing that stood out to me, as I'm reading through it, I'm going through all the numbers. And you're talking about you had like how they outscore teams by almost eight points per 100 possessions when he's on the court. And they get outscored by 8.5 when he's off.

And then you had the numbers that were post-all-Star break, which were even more incredible, his on-and-off court. And so you got the on-off court numbers. And then I just look and you say, he's ever. averaging 26 points, 8.7 assist, 8.6 rebounds. Kevin, he's going to get fourth in the MVP voting. Should he? Should he get fourth? I mean, that's what... Seems kind of insane to me.

No, that's what I was struck with as I'm reading your article. I'm reading the article and I'm going, oh, my God. This guy is seriously going to get fourth. Like, he'll finish behind... I think it's going to go Westbrook Harden, Kauai, LeBron. I think that's how it's going to go, one through four. I think Westbrook will win. And I think, I just think, I can't get over the fact that LeBron is getting so overlooked in this discussion.

People are getting so distracted just by the two-man race between James Harden and Russell Westbrook that they're ignoring the fact that there are two really, really viable candidates in Kauai Leonard and LeBron James, just right out there who are arguably just as deserving or more deserving. I have not seen anybody throw a cape on. for LeBron. Like even yesterday I saw Tom Haberstrope from ESPN throw a cape on for Kauai Leonard. I have not seen anybody. Neil Payne did too for Kauai. I have not, have you seen anybody throw a cape on for LeBron? Say, this is all goofy. Like, what are we talking about here? This guy is the best player in the world. And he should be the MVP. Like, he should be every year. Like, I just haven't seen that. I haven't seen anybody really

stumped for him this year. And I don't know if they should. I don't know. Listen, LeBron James is the best basketball player in the world, but it is a season award, right? Were you most valuable for that particular season? And I think it speaks to the strength of, I mean, the best players, if LeBron James is fourth in the MVP voting, I think that speaks to how unbelievable the players are in the NBA and what kind of seasons are being had, more so than everybody's a dumb ass, LeBron shouldn't be fourth. If that article was posted tomorrow on Wednesday or on Thursday or on Friday instead of it on Monday, I think I might have stumped a little bit harder for LeBron because, you know, the last 24 hours or so,

I've really spent a lot of time looking into it. And, man, I have a hard time not thinking that I'm going to vote for LeBron. I think it's LeBron. And really? I just, yeah, I do. I think it's LeBron. I'm not sure that's where I'm going to go, man. but right now on Tuesday at 12.50 p.m. Eastern kind of leaning towards LeBron.

Are you going to be able to do that if Boston is the number one seed? It's irrelevant. It doesn't matter to me. Really? It doesn't matter. Look, okay. Here's the thing. Like, I've seen wins and losses cited a lot, you know, for an argument of Hardin over Westbrook. People say Harden won more games. And look, wins and losses are team metrics. They're not player metrics. And I always think back to my favorite baseball example and why I wish wins and losses were just scraped from the face of the earth in baseball.

Roger Clemens winning the 2004 Cy Young over Randy Johnson simply because he hit a better record of 18 and 4 over Johnson 16 and 14 still pisses me off. Yeah, but I don't think that that's not better in every stat. Everything. That's not comparable because we know that wins and losses. I'm talking strictly as the wins the wins argument, right? Like people saying Hardin should get it because of wins. Like, look, the fact that's entered the discussion in basketball blows my mind. We have like even Daryl Morey who runs an analytics conference tweeting about how the players who have won MVP have only come from teams of the top floor record since like the mid-1990s.

And that argument works against Westbrook, but I think it's irrelevant to the discussion. And I'm sure as how Darryl Murray knows that. But he knows wins that will be digested more so than like advanced stats would be. I could not disagree with you more. I couldn't. Basketball, because in basketball it is different. You do. There's only five guys on the court.

And you do directly affect winning and losing much, much, much, much, much, much, much more. Right? You are not totally dependent on everybody else. And if we are going to do that, then so if Anthony Davis next year, averages 35 points and 20 rebounds a game, and the team wins 28 games. You think he should be up for MVP? You think that, I mean, at some point you've got to draw the line. Winning does matter, Kevin.

Yeah, look, winning matters, right? But my point is, is that that win, that win number 55, whatever the number ends up being, that's not just a product of James Harden. It's a product of the system that Mike Dan Tony has installed that enhances each individual player that Darry perfectly blended together. I think they have built the right roster around James Harden. I think the wins argument is a better argument for Darrell Mori as executive of the year.

It's a better argument for Mike Dan Tony in the way they've enhanced that team. And also like another side of that is I've seen people cite those Vegas statistics like the Rockets weren't over under a 41 wins. That was way too low in the first place. James Hardin was my MVP pick before the season. I had Rockets like as the second third best record in the West. So like I don't want to say, oh, I was right. But it's like that was just way too low.

It was based solely off the fact that they stunk last year, not off the fact that their core was a 55 win team two years ago before they blew up last year and they fired Kevin McHale early in the season. This team was really good two years ago and three years ago. It was not this core. It was not this core that was a 55 win team, right? They had James Harden. They had James Harden.

Yeah, they had James Harden. But you were, listen, for them to have the season they're having, you were banking on a couple of things. I think it's fair because you were banking on a couple of things taking place that were maybe a little far-fetched. and that was getting a healthy Eric Gordon and a healthy Ryan Anderson for the amount of time that you did this year. Those were two of their big offseason acquisitions, and those guys have been plagued by injury and missing games over the years. And they went through the Capella thing for a while. They didn't lose Hardin for any amount of games. I mean, you do have to factor in all of that when you're doing.

In the end, you were right about Houston, but I don't think it's outrageous that they're, their season win total wasn't extremely high, given what took place last year. Defense stunk, and now you're hiring Mike Dantone, who doesn't really, you know, right? You're thinking they're probably going to play a lot of 115 to 118 games and they're going to win their share of them and lose their share of them. I mean, he's done a great job, and those guys stayed healthy, but I don't know. Listen, I just going back to, there has to be a threshold where winning matters. If you want to tell me there's not a big difference, as long as you're on.

a winning team or as long as you're on a 50 win team or as long as you're on a whatever. Because obviously, you know, the fact that Westbrook's team didn't win 40 or 50 games, people are holding that against him. But I don't think, but in baseball we say, that's not Westbrook's fault. Yeah, but in baseball we say, it doesn't matter if the angels are shitty. Mike Trout can be the MVP or whatever, right? And I don't, I don't think we should go that far in basketball. They are separate sports.

And I don't think that you can. I don't think it is a lot easier to be a great pitcher on a shitty baseball team. It's hard to be a great, great player on a shitty basketball team. Like, I think it is an indictment of your greatness if your team sucks. And why though? But why? Why? Like, okay, let's say.

Because how good are you? Because how good are you? If we're picking between Hardin and Westbrook, I'm picking Hardin. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the rockets have eight wins more than the thunder. It has to do with the fact that I think Hardin has been a better player who makes his teammates better within the situation that he's in. And he can't choose the situation. He's not part of it. That's not his choice.

That's up to Darryl Morey and Mike Danton. But within his situation, he's been the more efficient player. He's been the better playmaker. He's been the guy who makes his teammates better. So if I'm choosing between only those two, my pick is Hardin. but it doesn't have to do the wins or the end result for their teams. But let me go back. That's all my argument is.

No, you asked me why, because there is a limit to how good you are if your team sucks. In the NBA, there's only five guys on the court. And if you have a guy that is super awesome on your team, it's hard to be bad. It's hard. Unless they're really young, right? Like a town situation and a Wiggins. but if we look up and in three years Carl Towns is still on losing teams, it is an indictment on him.

I'm sorry. It just is. I think it's more than, it would be more of an indictment on Tom Thidvido for potentially, you know, in the future, failing to make the right transactions, failing to make the right additions to the team through the draft or free agency. It could be because of making poor trades. I don't, I, Carl, that's out of Carl Town's control. All right, David, let me ask you this.

Name me the great player that's not in the playoffs this year. Anthony Davis Okay, and now you don't think and you don't think Carl Towns you don't think we use You don't think we use this as a great

demerit of Anthony Davis, of course we do a great demerit of the market He's not the general manager Oh for goodness sakes Come on Look, okay look

Here's the thing Chris I just think When it comes to the wins argument There are much better data points people can look at other than wins. And not only that, the thing that I think is being just totally overlooked in this is the stuff that we can't measure.

We are so obsessed by numbers and stats that we're looking over things like intangibles. I'm talking about the stuff that we can't measure. There's no number for it. It's just a sense. It's something that you watch and observe. I'm talking about the stuff like who is the guy these players want to play with? Who is the guy who automatically makes his teammates better when he's on the floor? And I'm not talking by a number.

numbers standpoint. I'm saying in terms of skill, who's the guy who puts his guys in more advantageous situations as a passer? Whose scoring ability is so supreme that his guys are automatically getting better looks because the scoring enhances his playmaking. And that's where I always go back to LeBron James. I can't, I can't not overlook the fact that he is the guy who he makes everybody better on the court. And that's also another reason why I favor James Harden over Russell Westbrook, because I just think he's a better playmaker. Here's my intangible. Russell Westbrook is the best fucking player in the NBA this year.

And if you're down by 12... Because he's hunting assists and he's poaching rebounds away from his big men. I love this. I love this hunting and poaching stuff. That is so... It's undeniable. And it's okay. I don't think it's bad.

I'm not knocking it. I just think it's there. No, you're bringing it up to knock it. You're 100% bringing it up to... who knock it. Here's the deal. If they weren't like 40 and 9 or whatever the hell it is, 40 or, you know, 39 and 6 when he has a triple double,

then I'll listen to all this hunting and poaching. And you say that, oh, it's nothing against him. But that's exactly what all these nerds are using these terms. Like, oh, he's grabbing rebounds off of free throws. And he's hunting for assist. He's doing all I care about in the end, his triple doubles add up to them winning like 75% of their games when he gets a triple double. So if he was doing this in losing efforts, then I would listen to that argument.

But that is the biggest ones of bullshit I have ever heard in my life that Russell Westbrook is stealing rebounds from teammates and hunting for his sins. Oh, stop it already. He is. He is. You're allowed to use those, hey, you're allowed to use those derogatory terms for him acquiring his stats if it does not add up to winning, but it adds up to winning, so stop it already. That's preposterous.

Here's a thought with Westbrook, okay? Okay, this was something I wrote about before the season, and I don't know if it's true. I'm not sure. But the question I posed in the article was, you know, if Russell Westbrook gets to do what he wants and turns into this Terminator, Trump's triple double machine, which he has, would his team be better off with that or would they be better off if he took on a little bit more of a minimized role and allowed the team to really run like billy dunnivins motion offense if he played within the system would he would he benefit from becoming a more efficient player instead of

running more isolation possessions would he benefit from playing a little bit more off ball i think the answer might not be yes but i think there's a chance there is a chance that the thunder will be better off because a lot of people talk about how bad their team is and how bad the core is. I don't think their team is that bad. I think they don't have a great team. It's not as good as Houston. They don't have nearly as much talent. But they have some good players in that team.

Stephen Adams is a great center. Roberson arguably deserves to be first team all defense. Oladipo's had a really good year. Sabonis is one of the strongest rookies this season turned into a good shooter for that. Cantor, a great backup center. They have talent on that team. And I just wonder, an alternate universe if Russell Westbrook is averaging like 28, 8 and 8 instead of 30, 11, and 10

or whatever he's averaging, would they be better, a little bit better off if he took slightly less of a role on the ball and played a little bit more off the ball and played off other guys? Is that possible? Or am I crazy? You're crazy. That's what I would say. You're crazy. Not the first I've heard that.

The only way that Oklahoma City has won the amount of games they have is by his individual brilliance. And I know there are others. I even heard Bill do this on his mailbag thing where they pump up the supporting cast of Oklahoma City and act like it's not that shitty. Bull crap. If Russell Westbrook would have gone down for 30 games, that team would have won 10 at best. Yeah.

They'd go 10 and 20. I'm not saying that. No, I'm with you there, man. What I'm saying is like if he didn't have like the all-time highest usage rate, I don't know what his usage is up the top of my head. but let's just say it's 38. I think it's a hundred. I'm saying it appears to be 100%.

It does appear to be 100. But let's just say instead of, let's say instead of 100, it's 80. That's my point. If instead of 100, it's 80. If it's 80%, 85% of what it is and the role is distributed it a little bit more. Because I think Billy Donovan's a good coach. And in many respects, I'm not sure like he's getting to show that as much. because they run so much isolation with Russell Westbrook, and it works.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing for that team, but I can't help but think that if Dunovan was allowed to install the same system, he ran at Florida, like a lot of teams are running their motion offense these days, I just, I can't help but wonder that Westbrook would be an even more efficient player the season. He might not be scoring over 30 a game. He might not be racking up those triple doubles, but I can't help but think that he'd be more efficient as a player. Maybe not even James Hardin's level, but a whole lot closer as an efficient score than

what he is right now. I just can't help to think that, Chris. That might be crazy. I think that, hey, I think that would be possible with a different roster. But I don't look around that roster and go, this should be, you know what I mean? There should be less of Russell Westbrook. I just don't. I don't look at that roster and go, you know what?

It was behooed them to have less Russell Westbrook. And in fact, whatever his usage rate is, it's too low. It should be able to if it's less Russell Westbrook. It's just like a change in role, I guess. And I don't listen, his usage. Everybody loves Stephen Adams. I ain't crazy about Adams. And I'm a big oliglo-a-dipo fan.

The rest of them, you can have them. I mean, you know, I just think we pump up these other guys. I mean, Todd is a nice role player. Adams is a role-playing center. Can't there, you can't, you couldn't even have him on the court in the playoffs last year. Because he can't defend anybody. And then what? Roberson?

I mean, come on. Fine. If you want to talk about he's an all at the defensive. I mean, you just go down that roster. There ain't a lot I want on that roster. And I think it gets pumped up a little bit because they're playing with Russ. Because if he was, if he's the one, if he wasn't there and you saw them without him, I think it would shine a big light on what they actually got on that team.

Is he your MVP? I'm guessing he is, right? Yes. Yes. Russell Westbrook. Yes. Now, I'm going to cop to this. You are always a prisoner to what you have witnessed, okay?

And as you know, I watch every single Grizzlies game. I have watched this guy score 15 straight points to end a game. To end the game, go on a 15-0 run individually. And I was like, I'll never see anything like that again. Until last week, he came into the forum and single-handedly won them the game, dropped 45 points, and pulled a three in Tony Allen's face from like 30 feet away, up one, just a dagger. And that night he was eight of

13 from three. I was like, I've never seen anything like this guy. Like it's just, he's just on a different level this year, man. Different level. He is. He is, man. He is. No denying that. And I think that we're going to

look back and it's also the other thing that kind of, and I know, the whole round numbers thing, and triple doubles didn't become a big deal until magic and all this, whatever. Dude, I've been covering the NBA for 16 years, Kevin. I've seen, I could probably count on my hand.

I've probably been to, I don't know, 500 at least, no, more than that. I've been to over 500 NBA games. I could give you both my hands and I could count the number of triple doubles I've seen in person. This dude is about to average it for a season. 16 years of going to games, I can probably count. I bet I've seen less than 10 in person. And this dude is about to average one for an entire season. That does.

That's when the whole, yeah, it does matter that it's called a triple double. Because I'm telling you how rare that is as somebody that covers the NBA to see it. The idea that somebody could average that over the course of the season is asinine to me. I would have never suspected it be possible. So if he pulls that off, I do think. Especially while averaging 31 points a game. Yeah, I don't think it, listen, I don't think it's the end-all, be-all. I don't think he should just win because he did that.

But when you take all the other things, and I also think that team would be trash without him. Like absolute trash. I do. So that's where I probably, like, that would be one of my arguments. I don't think Cleveland is trash without LeBron. I don't think they'd be trash. and Hardin's team That Houston team

I mean they're no They're not Obviously what's a step up from trash Like what's like if trash is the lowest level What's one step up from that Recycle bin Okay recycle bin So they're recyclable

Okay They're like an old They'd be like an old pair of shoes That aren't quite ready to be thrown away And you're still wearing them When you don't want to get your nice new shoes dirty They're that if without LeBron James Let me speak to one other

thing. And this is the most disappointing thing that I've heard in a long time. So I did not realize this until that mailbag podcast that Simmons did. And for those of you that haven't listened to it, he got all kinds of different questions. But he talked a lot about the MVP on it, right? Kevin, I did not, I don't know how I missed this, but, and I don't know if you've heard this podcast says, did you realize that they're doing like an NBB? awards thing this year. And so... Stupid.

None of it's going to be given out until after the finals. I was devastated when I heard that. Like, I love that they get announced during the course of the playoffs. It's the best, right? And especially this year, more than any other, either Hardin or Westbrook or LeBron or whoever getting snubbed and giving them that. that extra motivation is the absolute best. Or if it's John Wall doesn't end up in the top five in MVP voting or whatever.

Giving those awards out way after the season, that is the worst. I hate it. I would rather them do it like on Friday. Everybody has to submit their votes by the end of Thursday and then on Friday it's announced. Like a day before the playoffs, I don't get waiting until after the draft. The draft happens before the award ceremony. Why are they doing this? I don't, there's no reason that's going to be good enough to make me rethink this.

It's awful. I hate it. And this is a major mistake that baseball makes. Baseball makes 100 million mistakes, right? One of which, and this is minor as compared to many of their others, but one of which is I don't even know who wins the friggin' award. at the end of the year. I don't. I just miss it. There's already other stuff going on that I'm paying attention to. Like, you know how they announce everything like way later? Like, I don't even,

and I'm a, I am a baseball fan in the sense that now I have a fantasy baseball team and I keep up with one team that I care about, right? I don't follow everything on a regular basis. It's kind of like what I do for fun, right, is I keep up with my favorite baseball team and my fantasy baseball team, but I don't really keep up with everything going on in baseball. But I couldn't tell you who won the, like, I couldn't tell you who won the Cy Young most years, the last couple of years of the MVP or anything like that. Like, I hate that.

I hate that those awards seem to be announced, like, way after it. And it's not even on my radar anymore by the time that stuff gets announced. They do it like two weeks after the World Series is over. It's awful. Which is just so silly. And the NBA is kind of doing it. the same exact thing essentially, like a week after instead of two weeks. It's so dumb, I think.

They should just make it a big deal, right? Like, everybody should at least have a chance at knowing who the National League rookie of the year was last year. You know what I mean? Whereas, you know, like, it would make sense if playoff performance was factored in, but it's not. It's only a regular season award. That's why I don't get why we wait two months to announce it.

I mean, look, the season ends tomorrow on Wednesday. We haven't did it. We have to wait three months and a week for it. Well, no, that's why I'm fighting this is because we haven't in the past. Remember Durant with the whole, you know, you're the real MVP and all. It's always happened, you know, during the playoffs, usually in the second round. Yep. I think, I bet you, I have no idea.

Like, I'm just speculating here, but it kind of went like under the radar that the NBA made this change in the first place. Maybe after this happens and they realized how. disastrous it is, maybe then they'll go back to doing it the old way. You can still have like a ceremony. You can still have your NFL honors. You can have your NBA honors type of show after the season, right? And maybe it won't have the same impact when the awards aren't announced yet. But even with the NFL honors show, all that stuff is leaked.

I mean, like, you know, you sure as hell know that awards are going to be leaked ahead of that show. On the morning of the show, stuff is going to start trickling out. hours before the show, we're going to find out who the MVP is. And it's going to lose the impact of who the winner is instead of being announced live on stage, which is probably what they're aiming for. But we're not going to get that. We're not going to get that shock.

Oh, Russell Westbrook, one over James Harden. The other thing is it's hot right now. It's what everybody's talking. People care. They're not going to care in June after the draft. People are going to be looking towards free agency. No, we only have one hope. We have one hope.

And he's going to have to be like our Batman. And that is we need the greatest of all woge bombs. That's what we need. And we need it like, because the votes, they're all going to be tabulated, right? They're all going to be tabulated and then they're going to sit on them for like a month and a half. So everybody's votes are going to have to be in, right? Like, do you have a vote? Yeah, you have to vote by sometime on Friday.

I forget the time exactly. The votes are in on Friday. And then they're going to sit on them for like a month and a half. That's what we need. This is his peace de resissance. This is the ultimate of all Wojbombs. Because he's got all the credibility in the world. So if next Wednesday, Wojianowski says sources,

the NBA will name Russell Westbrook MVP in a month and a half. It's going to be the greatest of all Wojbombs. That's what we need. I'm going to beg him. I know Adrian. I love to see him drop like a Google doc, right? Like a Google doc of everybody's vote? Yes.

Like every award vote in a Google document for people to see like on next Wednesday. And it's all announced via Woj. Oh, it's great. I know Adrian. In fact, I'm going to hit him up this week. And I'm going to put a little bug in his ear. And I'm going to be like, you want to go down in history as the greatest NBA report? Like you're probably already the greatest NBA report.

there is or ever, this, this would be the greatest because everybody's pissed off. We're not going to find out the MVP for a month. If you could break a story a month and a half in advance, oh, it'd be the, we got one chance, Kevin, in Woj, I trust. Can you imagine? I just got to, this is kind of an aside, but I just want to say this, you know, Adrian Wardenowski, you know, he's kind of looked at as like a mythical creature because of, you know, how he reports everything and how he's connected to everybody.

But I highly recommend, you know, watching the panel with him, Adam Schaefter, Ken Rosenthal from the Sloan Sports Analytics Conference. Just plug that into YouTube and watch that. And Woge, you know, knowing him personally, he's a great person and a great guy. And you'll get to see that side of him in this conference from Sloan. You'll learn a lot from him. And I highly recommend listening to that. You'll learn from Schefter, too.

but Woage in particular, you know, gives great insight into what he does and how he's really developed into the incredible reporter that he is. And I would love to see him break the awards as well, but definitely watch that. It's on YouTube now? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. All the Sloan panels are, I believe, free to watch on YouTube now. Just, you know, put in like Sloan Sports Analytics Conference and type in Woj or whatever, and it should pop up. Awesome. Yeah, no, I'm going to check those out for sure.

Hey, are you going to go? Did you go? That was in your backyard. Yeah, yeah. It was really good. It was my second year in a row going. And I think the panels are interesting from what I've heard is like there was more stuff you would learn, you know, seven to eight years ago when it was more of a smaller

conference in terms of new basketball information. But it's still fun. And I think, you know, the panels, you can learn a lot from people up there. Like Michael Lombardi from the ringer, I watched his panel in the NFL. and just the insight that these guys who provide that have been in the industry for years. There's a lot to pull. You know, if you do draft evaluation or, like, journalism is something you want to get into. There's a lot of value in that.

So if you didn't get to go to the conference, watch the videos. It's important. Awesome, man. Kevin, by the time we speak next, we will be right in the middle of the playoffs. I can't wait. Thanks, brother. I'm excited, man. Have it going to go on, Chris.

All right. That's going to do it for another Ringer NBA show. If you dig what you're here and go give us a rating and review on iTunes. and we will talk to you on Thursday.