The Ringer NBA Show - Why Aren't NBA Teams Tanking Anymore? | The Answer

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

Kyle and Seerat get together to discuss why teams around the league aren't choosing to dive to the bottom standings to improve their draft statuses lately, using the intricacies of the recent Lakers-Wizards trade as a conversational springboard. They start on the Lakers side of the deal and talk about whether new acquisition Rui Hachimura can help them in their playoff aspirations (9:54). After the break, they examine the Wizards' current state and the history of misses in both the draft and trade market that has led to their bleak predicament (34:05). They end the pod by doing a deep dive into the first episode of 'The Last of Us' (42:21). Hosts: J. Kyle Mann and Seerat Sohi Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Benjamin Cruz and Conor Nevins Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's popping, everybody? This is Logan Murdoch from Real On I have some big news to share. On Saturday, February 18th, the Ringer NBA show will be hitting the road for All-Star weekend for a live show in Salt Lake City. You heard that right. We are taping the pod in front of a live audience in Salt Lake next month and we want you to join us. Pull up on us at the stateroom in the heart of downtown Salt Lake. You can grab your tickets now at thestateroom.com. That's the stateroom.com. Doors open at 9 o'clock. Show is at 10. It's going to be a 21 and up event. come hang with the gang and chat midseason updates draft preview and even have a Q&A with us space is limited so grab your tickets while they last at the stateroom.com or click the link in the description of this show hope to see y'all in there. Hello ladies and gentlemen gays and days welcome to the answer we are brought to you by me of course and the lovely the lovely Kyle man who just can't stop laughing you can't stop laughing for some reason. You know, he wanted me to bring it today. He wanted me to bring it. He wanted me to do the intro. So you didn't get your typical folks, which I personally love. I love his soothing, sweet

voice and just the intelligent takes that come out of his mouth. Kyle, how are you doing today? Are you ready to bring, you know, just your regular sharp wooded itself? I'm not trying to laugh. I'm not trying to laugh. I just, what people should know is that I'm, we were talking about, I'm, more of a shameless kind of schmaltzy performer. I'll take it too far, frequently, try things, be a little extra. I think I'm, I'm not saying I'm an extra person in general. I can ID those people and judge them from afar, but I'm definitely more extra than you are. So like, you know, Syri is very cool and collected and things like that. And I was basically chiding her to do what I do. Yeah, Kyle is basically performing all the time. He's, he actually should be the one

living in L.A. I think he'd fit right in. Like you'd be mucking it up in West Hollywood with, you know, all the, all the wheelers and dealers and people who tell you got to play the game and all that stuff. Sure, sure. I feel like I should probably live in like Branson, Missouri, you know, somewhere that has like a just, just the, with the people who just need to perform, you know, whether they're famous or not. I'm totally kidding. I'm not like that. But I was, I was teasing Syrit and chiding her. And she delivered as usual. I also say this about Siritt, big speakerphone talker. You're a big, I wanted to kind of just. Want to call me out? My wife was like eavesdropping on our call and I was like, I'm on, I sounded like an 80 year

old man. I was like, am I on speakerphone right now? Because I could hear the reverb of your apartment. And Sir, it was like, yeah, Syrit was like a hundred feet away making food and talking to me. I don't know. I'm just kind of like. I was pretty close to my phone.

But the real mistake I made was I didn't, I didn't. I didn't send you a FaceTime audio call. I tried to regular call you, which never really works for me in Americans for some reason. Probably the American thing I still have. I'm still using my phone from Canada, so maybe that's part of it. There's parts of it that you just don't really let go of.

And my phone number, which I was about to say, but I realized that was a really bad idea. But I have, go check it out after Kyle. I have one of the best phone numbers that you could possibly have. I just can't,

and I can't give it up. I've never noticed, I've never really noticed or thought about. I guess I didn't have another friend that was international. I guess you're my only. What's unique about this seven? What's unique about these digits, I'll say in order. No, I'm not.

Chris is laughing. Let me just parrot your phone number over the pod and please call, see it. I don't see anything unique about this. I guess we can't really comment on it without sort of alluding to what your phone number is. So maybe we should just move on from that. I'll say this. A pizza place would love to buy it off of me. You know what I mean? Like you could just, you could just yeah, like you could do a great jingle based on my, based on my phone number. You personally, Kyle, actually, would do a great jingle based on my phone number. If I ever give it up, we'll give it, well, we'll give it a shot. I used to do jingles. I used to do stuff like that. A lot of that lame shit I used to do. We were talking about voiceovers and things like that. All that stuff is in me. But anyway, sorry to try to you about. intros and speakerphone and things like that, I'll lay off. I'll try to be nicer. Well, this makes sense. We clearly have a natural on our hands. You've been, you know, you're well practiced. Natural lamo, right? Yeah. No, wait, come on. Don't do that, Kyle. Before we get, before we get

started today, I got to say something about Kyle. Kyle is very bad at taking compliments. And he doesn't necessarily understand how entertaining and intelligent the stuff that he makes is. That's not an invitation for you to then compliment me. I'm not. just saying, I will admit I'm really bad at it. And it's an off-putting quality. Like, don't do it. It's not off-putting. See what you're doing again. Like, you're like, oh, I'm so, I'm such a shitty guy for not taking compliments. It's actually pretty, we're all, most people, I think, I think learning to take compliments is actually a learned behavior, uh, for most people. Uh, and, you know, maybe, like, maybe that's actually probably a good thing,

right? Like, what if you were the other way around? Anyway, I'm just trying to, or yeah, if I do the Han solo, I know, I'm just trying to make you, I'm just trying to make you see yourself from a different angle. But my point here is that everyone who's, to this who enjoys anything that Kyle does should tell him about it all the time. I'm good. Thank you. No, there's, I don't know. There's some, there's some kind of southern discomfort with that. Southern discomfort. There we go. Anyway, let's let's talk some basketball, Sir. Let's let's give the people what they came for. Let's talk some hoops. And then you'll, you'll, you'll say some really smart stuff and people will be like, wow,

that guy smart. At least that's, that's what I find myself thinking. And I'm sure I'll find myself thinking it today. Likewise, Sir, likewise. Thank you. Thank you. Today we're talking about, essentially we're talking about the fact that nobody wants to tank anymore. It just seems like nobody wants to tank anymore. And there are a number of reasons why that we're going to get into. But, you know, I think, I'd say like this was early November. We were watching a bunch of Victor Wenbenyama. We got to Scoot Henderson, Victor Wenbanyama matchups. And I think the entire league was, a incredibly excited, rightfully so. But both those guys, And also just they're the headliners in a stack draft. Like this is an incredibly strong draft. And I think around that time, people were thinking, all right, we're going to see some tanking this year. We're going to see some teams really just throwing in the towel. You know, do we even have a phrase for this?

Is there any like, you know, like W is not an easy word to work with here. But like, I don't know, like a. Bill did a good one. Trauma for Yama or something like that. That was good. That was probably the best one I've heard so far. Wobbly for Wimby, I think I've heard somebody say that one. I don't know. I think those two are pretty good. Trauma for Yama is pretty good, I think.

That is good. I mean, he's a generational talent. I think you're right. I mean, I think it's worth it to somebody, all of this kind of is going to be a cyclical. It's going to circle back to this theme that I think we've talked about before. I've heard other people say this too, that like the league isn't just a talent acquisition. proposition. It's a superstar acquisition. And I think that some of the things that we're going to talk about today are going to be about like deciding or being self-aware enough to know if you

have one of those people because of the status quo of the league can kind of factor into a lot of those decisions that you're going to make. But yeah, I think that sets the table pretty well for some of the stuff. Yeah, basically we were we were thinking that people would be tanking for Wembenyama, but we're in January now. The trade deadline is two weeks away. And right now, it seems like everyone is still a buyer. And the teams that were, you know, in the tank are still the same teams. Like you have, you have your Houston's, your Orlando's, your spurs, your hornets ended up being

a lot worse than they thought they would. And who am I missing? There's one more team that's in the... Houston, Detroit, Charlotte, San Antonio are the chief candidates. but Houston, Detroit, Charlotte have the flat odds at the top. Basically the same teams that we were looking at in November. Nothing has really changed. And there are a number of reasons why that is that we'll get into.

But just to give you guys a little bit of a primer, there is a lottery odds changing. There is just a level of parity that we haven't seen in the league. There's first round picks going a whole bunch of different directions. But we'll start with what I thought was a trade that we were going to talk about anyways, but what I think is actually kind of, you know,

it gets into a lot of the reasons why we might be seeing this. So yesterday, the Lakers and the Wizards basically opened up trade deadline action with, you know, a trade that was the Lakers sent Kendrick Nunn, three second rounders to the Wizards for Rehachamara.

And this deal essentially, I mean, I think it's a kind of buy on both sides. These are two teams that are in playing range right now. And the plane is another reason that this is happening as well. There are two teams that are in the playing range and are in a position where they don't necessarily, they're not really, they don't really have an opportunity to tank. And it's for completely opposite reason. So, Kyle, who do you want to get into first?

Should we do the Lakers of the Wizards? Let's start with the Lakers. Let's do that. So the Lakers do not have their own first round pick this year. We all know this. That pick belongs to New Orleans. And there was a moment where it looked like the Lakers were going to be so bad that Victor Wembe and Yama had a really, really good chance of ending up on the New Orleans Pelicans.

That's still in the cards. But the Lakers have been playing a lot better lately. Pretty much since Anthony Davis has been out, their effort on defense has been a lot better. In the month of January, they've been pretty good. They haven't strung together too many wins. but they've been playing a lot harder. And LeBron is having just, I mean, talk about just bringing it in the twilight of his career. I just, you know, I'm going to borrow from KOC.

Don't take LeBron James for granted. This man is playing some incredible basketball, 37 points two nights ago in a comeback win against the Blazers that is very indicative of how the Lakers are playing right now. They gritted out and their role players are finally kind of coming along. Thomas Bryant has been a revelation. Winnie and Gabriel has been really good. And then with the guards that they have, there's always someone that shows up now.

Like Dennis Schroeder's had a good stretch lately. Max Christie, who I know, Kyle, you're a big Max Christi guy. I think we're all, we could all, you know, by the end of the year, be big Max Christi guys. Like, you don't really know. But they are now in a position where earlier in the season, it looked like, while this team is really bad, there's no point in them giving up any assets to try to get better this year.

They still haven't gotten, use the 2027, 2029 first rounders that everyone's been talking about. But they gave up three second round picks to essentially get Hachamora, who is a very interesting player at this juncture in his career, ninth pick that hasn't really panned out in Washington, although draft picks don't really tend to pan out in Washington. And, you know, he's a forward that's really athletic and just,

you know, he projects out to. to be kind of like the type of guy that should be really aggressive playing that four position as a 7-2 wingspan, athleticism, shot is improving. Doesn't necessarily play with enough aggressiveness, in my opinion, but is a reasonable prospect, but also someone that I look at, and I'm like, really, this is like the, the Lakers are going to eat into their own cap space this coming summer and extend him. Like that, they must be really, really high on him, which, I mean, hey, I don't know. What do you think about that part of it?

I mean, I could see why they would see him as somebody that could fit. I mean, he gives them a little bit more. I mean, they don't really have a player type of this variety on the roster right now, like a big, rangy, switchy four. Because Hachimura, as you said, is he's 6'8. He's a 7 foot 2 wingspan. The thing about him is we kind of expected him to be like a downhill for somebody that can give you a lot of room pressure and then be a spacer.

To this point in his career, he's not really a super dependable, like self-creator. So that's something that we haven't seen him efficiently do. But his availability has been kind of an issue, and I think that that's kind of added to some of the start-stoppiness of his career. Like, you know, he's evolved into a shooter.

11.6% of his points were from three in his rookie season, and last season that went all the way up to almost 35%. So he's been kind of gradually trying to, to become this stretch space guy, but he's a pretty good cutter. He's a decent spot-up player, and if you're playing with LeBron James, I kind of wonder if Hachamora and AD and LeBron can be on the floor at the same time. What do you think about that spacing-wise, if he's not going to be like a super-consistent shooter for the Lakers? Or is it a long play? What do you think?

I think it could be interesting. You know, Hachamora going to join a LeBron James team where he is going to get the perfect pocket passes thrown to him might see a little bit of an uptick in his in his percentages. And then on the other end, there's also just, you know, he's really athletic. He can run in transition. And that's how the Lakers thrive too. So I could see him being a guy that can fit now and also maybe be part of the long-term plans. But ultimately, it's still a big question mark just because we don't really know the type of

player that Hachamora can turn himself into yet. And so I think we just kind of got to put a pin in that until. you know, maybe a few months down the line or even years, you know, like, it depends. But it does sort of change what we think of, like, what the Lakers were going to be doing this season. Because now I'm starting to wonder, are they going to, is it more likely that they use those other, those first round picks and maybe try to put Westbrook in a deal? They could trade Patrick Beverly. But just to bring this back to the larger point here, this is a team that can't, for a number of reasons, get into the tank of Paloosa, which has not been a Paloosa.

It's not really been a party at all. No one's joining this party. The Lakers can't because they don't have their first round pick. And they are not the only team that doesn't have their first round pick. Now, I have a theory about this. Basically, I think every time you introduce a new rule, there are unintended consequences of it that, you know, you can't really, you can't really plan for.

I think like pretty much it's been like most of NBA history, especially when it comes to like CBA stuff. Like they try to, for example, control player movement with like the Supermax and things like that that just didn't really work out and created a whole bunch of unintended consequences. But here I think with the lottery rules changing, it created an unintended consequence that actually serves the purposes of changing the lottery rules. Like the NBA wanted less tanking, right? So when the lottery rules changed, I think that it lessen the value of first round draft picks. And now we see all of these draft picks get thrown around. We've done episodes on this just like the Gobert trade, the Dejante Murray trade, the Mitchell trade. Like first round picks are just going all over the place.

And that was also a feature in the Anthony Davis trade to the Lakers. is the reason that the Pelicans have the Lakers pick. And with all of this dealmaking, there are a lot of teams that just don't have their own picks this year. If you look at the league right now, there are, I think, 13 teams who are between 23 and 25 in the loss column that don't really know what they should be doing right now. But of them, Chicago, which is a big player in this,

or should be a big player in this, should kind of like the season that they've had would suggest that they should be tanking does not have their pick this year. And Portland is another team that, you know, they're in an interesting position too where their pick is protected 1 to 14. So they could be a team that ends up getting their pick if they just stay in the playing range. But Chicago is a really interesting one to me because they should be tanking and they're not because they can't. could get real bad, real fast. I mean, there are only four games out from the bottom three of the east. And if you look at the standings in the west, it looks like, well, I don't know, catching the spurs at this point. The spurs are basically like, if you imagine a bunch of people jumped out of a plane and they're trying to hit the ground first. I feel like the spurs are like in the diving position, you know, I feel like they're trying to be as, as like aerodynamic as possible to hit the bottom pretty much. It's kind of another way to just say tanking. But, you know, yeah, the rockets right now at like a 23 point. 4 win percentage. If you think about like how bad they can conceivably be after the after the trade deadline, it's possible. It is it is possible. I just don't know. I don't know that it's

possible enough, I guess is how I would say it. But you think that they should just full on swan like you think that they should embrace the dive to the bottom since they're in no man's land, which I agree with you. But yeah. Well, now they're in a weird position because I think if they had embraced this a little bit earlier. So they're in a really weird place right now because their pick, which goes to Orlando, is only protected from one to four. And right now that one to five looks pretty, it looks pretty solid, right? And now the lottery odds have changed. So like, you're only going to have a 14% at the number one pick if you're the, if you're the worst team the NBA. So things can move a little bit from there. But the thing is, they've, they've also been

winning some games now. So it's like they don't necessarily, they're not in a position now to be fully tanking the season. For them, I think it could end up landing them in no man's land. And then they would have to give up their pick anyways. I think the time to do it was really, really early in the season. Now it's almost too late for them to tank. So they have no choice, but to essentially try to compete this season. And I think the other thing that's going on there is that they're very, they're still very early into this experiment. Like it got bad fast. And also it could just be middle of the road, right? Like they have won some games as of late. Maybe Lonzo comes back and they still look like, you know, the team that we kind of thought that they could be. And I think that

they're going to be incentivized to keep things that way just because I think it's really difficult for a new front office to come in and make all these splashing moves and then like, you know, not even two years into the experiment, say, hey, we, actually screwed up. We need to do a fire sale on everybody that we signed two years ago. Yeah, that's not a good look. Even though I do think it would be like the right nimble move to make here, but a lot of teams aren't very nimble, which is how I'm going to transition this to the Washington Wizards and the trade that they, like their end of this trade essentially. Do you have, do you have more to say about Chicago? No, I was going to, I was going to ask you if they're going to, if they were going to do that.

I don't think this year they would be able to ascend into the actual competitive, like, we have a chance, like we're a contender range, basically. I was going to say if there was like one player type that they could go after, wouldn't it be like a high-level room protector? Do you think that there's one out there that's undervalued that they could steal from somebody? Like, I don't know. The magic have a couple of those guys. Like I feel like Bamba and Jonathan Isaac are two guys.

Isaac's been coming back and playing better later. I'm trying to trade Jonathan Isaac all the time. But just because I think he's undervalued, he's one of the best defensive players, like, young defensive players in the league and everybody's just like, he's weird. We're out. Like, that's kind of been the vibe I've gotten from him. But do you think that there's like a player type that could like accelerate them if they're not going to go towards the bottom? Yeah, I think you're definitely on the right track. And that is a good question. I think it would be interesting to see if they're buyers.

I just don't know that they have, and they went so all in with the guys that they signed that they just don't really have a lot of assets to give back. but I think Bamba would make a lot of sense on a lot of teams. I think he'd be great on the Raptors. Yacup Pertil is another guy that could be interesting in Chicago. I actually thought that you were going to try to bring this into like a Miles Turner Love Fest discussion. We're just going to do like our weekly segment on Miles Turner. But I commend you for going in a different direction. And that's kind of what's happening, right?

Like we have teams that are actually trying to make moves that are going to, you know, maybe move the needle a little bit. towards competing. And that's another aspect of this that I think is interesting. I think because of the play-in, the definition of being competitive has become so wide.

What does competing even mean anymore? My theory on this is just that I think that we have kind of lost track of sometimes when you're too close to the canvas, you can lose perspective. I was joking with somebody the other day. I hope with a group of guys on Thursday night who are all, we've been aging together for like 15 years now.

And it'll give me this false sense sometimes of like, I can still move. I can still go. But the reality is I've been playing with these dudes. And then like when I get up against people who are actually fast, I'm like, oh, I'm not fast anymore. You know, but anyway, I still kick ass. But it makes me think about like, you're competitive, you're competitive, you're competitive, You think you're competitive. Like the definition of competitiveness, you have those big home wins.

And the regular season's so fucking different from the playoffs. Anyways, schematically, it's different. Players sit. We've seen this over and over and over again. You get into the playoffs and it's a different animal. Like suddenly when those teams think they're competitive from their big wins and the vibes are good. And then they get up against an actual team that is well put together and is schematically pliable. And they have all these different ways they can play.

And you realize, oh, we're not. actually in the conversation. And I think that's kind of what we're talking about. It's there's my grand theory. My grand theory is, I think the talent level in basketball at large is so high now that there are so many teams. We talk all the time about like how many guys are averaging 20 points. How many teams like they're just, are more good players than ever. I think so. Yeah, on a given ninth, team X can beat team Y. That's always been true. But I think maybe it's more true now and it's created a false sense a little bit of competitiveness. Is that

wild? Is that crazy? No, I think that makes it that makes a ton of sense actually. I was actually, I asked the Grizzlies were just in town on Friday and I was asking Desmond Bain a question about you know, the general sort of state of small market teams

in the NBA and the whole like big market versus small market thing now that, you know, like the Grizzies are the number two seed. The nuggets are the number one seed. Like, you know, the bucks won a championship. It's just we kind of live in a different world. And he actually said that too. He said that the talent level around the league is so high that, you know, it just flattened everything out a little bit. And that makes, that makes a ton of sense. Like, it used to be that everybody would want to go to the Lakers. And, or like, you know, there are only so

many superstars. And now it's like, there are, there are a lot of players, I think, in the NBA that you could talk about and say, like, they're a superstar. Like, take it back to like your pickup thing, right? Like, maybe the Lakers after like an amazing comeback win against the Trailblazers who have the same 22 and 25 record as them shouldn't be so confident about that. Not to say that's why they made the deal, but like,

I mean, maybe I'm like, I feel more confident in the Lakers after watching a game like that, but we kind of need to recalibur what we look at as a competitive team. Like the places are a team that has Damian Lillard and Jeremy Grant and Anthony Simons.

Like, we should look at them and be like, wow. And there's a lot, there's a number of teams that fit this sort of mold. Like the Hawks have a superstar and a whole bunch of really like super, super high level role players around Trey

and they can't really manage to figure anything out either. Like there's, I almost want to go down the list right now of teams that have superstars on them. Like is this really interesting. Like the Blazers, Damian Lillard's superstar? Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I think he's still, I mean, he's on the verge. He's firing off, I think, one of his probably last couple great years. Fair enough. Yeah. Fair enough.

Lakers, AD, LeBron, superstar. Thunder, SGA, superstar? I think he's kind of arrived. Like honestly, I really do. Okay. I think he's there. Yeah. Okay.

I think he's on the cusp, right? Like, he's pretty much like he's knocking at the door at this point. And the Warriors obviously a step, superstar. Yes. The Timberwolves. I think Ant is kind of in the process of cementing himself still. I mean, he's done a lot to prove that. Do you think, I mean, Cat?

Yes. I think he is. I mean, yeah, I think Cat is. I think it's a big. begrudging yes, right? Yeah, well, you can kind of hear that, I mean, you can hear all the kind of like malaise of experience in the tone of my voice when I'm saying some of this stuff. But I think as we go down this list, it's going to prove your point that like it's kind of it's kind of the thing from the Incredibles when buddies, like when everybody's special.

Nobody is. I'm not saying nobody's special. I'm just saying that like once we have, it's the unicorn thing too. Once we start calling everybody a unicorn, at some point the temperature has raised to the temperature of the water has raised where we have to redefine what what a superstar is. I'm like mixing a million metaphors right now. But I kind of feel like we're reaching that point in the league. That's kind of where I think we're headed. We're there, really, honestly. Like Suns, Clippers, Mabs, all have superstars.

Yeah. And I'm picking these teams for a reason. Wizards, Bradley Beal, Superstar. Superstar? I kind of don't. A really good player. I don't know that I would like, I don't know that I would say this. Yeah. Sorry.

Do you, what do you think? I don't know. It's a semantic thing. When he's at the top of this game. When he's at the top of this game. Probably the same with the Raptors. The Raptors have stars. The Bulls have stars.

They have stars. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Tip off the New Year with Fandul, America's number one sports book. New customers get $150 in bonus bets guaranteed. When you place your first $5 bet,

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You texted me the other night and said that you got to witness up close. Well, the Desmond Main story. I want to get back to it. But you get to witness the big unc energy in person from Shannon Sharp. Do you have anything to add to that? I was looking at the pictures trying to see if I could see you. What could you add to the story of the drama? I don't have much to add, honestly.

I was right in front of it. I was right in front of where most of the videos are. So I had the video view of it. I didn't notice it until pretty much it was right in the, like I didn't even know. notice any chirping going on until there was like this huge scrum developing in the corner of the court. And you had, you had T. Morant, you had Shannon Sharp, you had Stephen Adams in there. But it's basically, I saw what everybody else saw on camera. I heard what I heard about what Shannon Sharp said, but I don't really, like, I only heard it from one person. So I'll tell you

off of, I'll tell you when we're done recording. But let's just say that like, I think it would be like incredibly fair for anybody to be pissed off. Sure. What he said is true. Wait, you'd be fair to be pissed off at Shannon Sharp from what he said. Okay. Interesting that he got to stay in the game. That's kind of unfathomable. I was going to say something I've noticed, and this is a minor aggression, but like something I've noticed about LeBron is I feel like 99% of the LeBron shit talk that we find out about is always him being like calm down, not yet.

Like, you know, it's always like, you know, who are you? like you you don't have he's always just trying to like wet blanket someone and downplay like you haven't earned the right to be speaking like this to me yet it always seems like it's that's always the nature of lebrons it's settle down kind of i don't know there's like is it a little boomer is a little boomer energy in his shit talk it's kind of you know pipe down i think there is i think there's a little bit of i i think the grisies are bringing me out boomer energy in a lot of the NBA like they're the young upstart that won't shut up and like it's funny how these things happen, right? Like, we've gone from seeing them as, as, as, as confident to arrogant. And I think that has

nothing to do with them. I think they've just been the same team this whole time. They kick ass. They take names. They trash talk. They trash talk where they're losing, whether they're winning. And I think that's actually kind of a respectable thing. They keep the same energy all the time. And I kind of think that in the last year, almost a year exactly, like that's one of the original Desmond Bain LeBron James incident happened that you're referencing where LeBron's just like, this is the last time y'all going to talk shit to me. He was wrong, by the way. But that sort of thing started last year. And I think it happened right around the time that the Grizzlies went from like this cute young upstart small market. Look at them go like chug a chugga chug a choochoochoochoochoochooch. So,

so awesome. What a great story for the league. type of stuff to then like, oh, these guys could actually be genuine contenders and oh, like, they actually have some stuff that like our roster doesn't know how to deal with. And oh, John Moran is actually low-key, like, unstoppable in a way that matters in the postseason.

Superstar? Superstar, I would say. Superstar. Definite superstar, definite superstar. And that is kind of what separates them, I think, from some of the other really, like, cute stories in the NBA that everybody really, like, it's like, oh, look at you go. It's not cute when you're threatened by them anymore, right? Like, after that, they're, like, now

Memphis, Memphis should print some shirts that say chug a chugga, chit-a-choo, I feel like you just coined a whole. Grit and grind's good, but I think chug-a-chuga-chut-chut-choo has some marketability there. They've got some good. They're pretty good at capitalizing on their, on their local slogans and stuff. Sick jerseys. The yellow, the yellow pops. I mean, they've really leaned into the yellow pops in their uniforms.

That one thing. I do, I do appreciate a nice, a nice color scheme. That was, that was, I had to, I just had to get the story about the big unc energy in person. And I just thought that was, I thought that was interesting. LeBron did have one pretty good answer there where he dunked on. Was it triple J that he dunked on? I think, I think it was. Yeah.

Yeah, that matchup was really interesting. Yeah, it was. They were both playing the four. That was pretty fascinating. He had a great quote after the game about how Shannon Sharp can talk with the best of them. And I have to just like shout out Shannon Sharp for doing all of this in a light blue cardigan. There was something about that that I just really loved. Oh, yeah.

Like he had the most dad by a fireplace outfit on the whole time. What a cardigan, man. That was something. I'm sure it costs more than my mortgage. But yeah, he was rocking that card. He was. He definitely had the old guy. I definitely wouldn't screw with them.

Not that I didn't mess with anybody, but he was, he was terrifying for sure. Yeah, all right. We're meandering a little bit. So let's take a break. And then when we're back, we'll talk about the Wizards. All right.

Well, speaking of teams that can convince themselves are competitive, we do have to talk about the Washington Wizards, who their side of this deal is just, particularly depressing in a lot of ways. Starting with the fact that, so they didn't want to pay Hachamora, it's fine. Things didn't really pan out there, but this suggests that they are getting ready

to dole out a contract to Kyle Kuzma, which also suggests that Kyle Kuzma is ready to commit to the Washington Wizards. And it looks like they just want to buy in on this, this Kate, this Christopps-Prasignis, Kyle Kuzma, Bradley Biel-Corp. And, you know, I don't know who they're trying, are they trying to convince you and I? Are they trying to convince their fans?

Are they trying to convince Brad? Are they trying to convince themselves that this is an appropriate way to try to compete in the year of our Lord, 2023? We have, by the way, Christopps Prisengis, who has never really inspired much, I don't know, inspiration when you watch him on the court, is having a career season going into a contract year. an outlier season for a guy who has not really seemed to, you know, care most of the time. So I don't know. I don't like to assume that players are doing things because of contract incentives. I think sometimes that's just not true. I would say in this case, it just looks like a shoe in for that being what's going on here.

It has the markings, right? It has all of the markings. It has all of the markings. Kyle Kuzma is having a career year on what I think is a mix of him finding his role and also some unsustainable shot making. But I just for me and personally for my taste, probably for your taste, I like a core that has a little bit more defense, a little bit more playmaking, a little bit more basketball IQ. And we just don't really have that with this with this wizard's core that they seem to be buying themselves into. they are a team that is, they are 20 and 26,

which is what passes these days in the age of the plan for convincing yourself that you should be buying into anything and not tanking, but they are also in an interesting situation right now, too, where I don't think that Tommy Shepard, their GM, has a lot of cachet or just the, you know, the gravitas to initiate a tank, even though unlike the Chicago situation,

this is a situation that Tommy Shepard essentially inherited and has been trying to make the best of. Bradley Beale does not seem to want to trade and until Bradley Beale wants to trade, this is going to be the sort of like rolling situation for the Wizards, right? Like if unless he demands one, I don't think that they can like fully strip things down. That said, this is, there's never been a better time for the Wizards to think because no one, no one is going to think that they are. I don't think you're ever going to get more value for Kyle Kuzma other than in this moment where he is just like, you know, shooting the lights out and also you just traded

a player suggesting that you are going to be paying him. You're never going to, you are never going to get more for Christops Prisengis. It's just never going to happen. This is the moment. This is the absolute moment to do it. But they the reason that it would be a really great time for them to tank is because

they're not going to. So they are going to just lock into this team. And it just kind of, I don't know, it makes me think a little bit about the nimble thing. Right? Like there are certain teams that look at the scenario and the front office has the cachet to be able to change direction and they do it. I think the Raptors, the Tapa Tank is a good example of this.

Things were not going well that season. Messiah Jerry has all the job security in the world. He can take the team in whichever direction he wants to, with the exception of like, I don't think they are going to, you know, pay a pony up a lot of salary cap for a team that's not a winner. Other than that, I think that's a team that can do what they want. The Wizards are different. You know, I think the Wizards aren't a team that necessarily wants to say.

spend unless they are in a situation where they feel like they can make a real splash. They can make a deep playoff run. Then I think they will actually spend a little bit more. But I don't think that they will in this case. So they can't do the whole thing of like taking on some tough contracts. And they also aren't going to tank. So they just don't really have a chance to make themselves better in any way. And I don't know, Kyle.

It's just kind of depressing. That's that's what I got. It is. The talent acquisition for them has been a real issue. you were talking about like, I know Troy Brown is a guy that's playing for the Lakers now. He was a guy that they drafted. If you, I wanted to just rattle back over this. You were talking about inheriting things from Ernie Grunfield.

Erna, they, if you go back over their draft history, past five seasons. In 2018, they picked Troy Brown. They could have had Devinchenzo, Herder, Simons, Robert Williams, Jalen Brunson. This is brutal. Mitchell Robertson, Gary Trent Jr. in 2019, they took Hashimura. they could have had Cam Johnson, PJ Washington, Tyler Hero, Brandon Clark, Grant Williams, or Kelton Johnson. In 2020, they took Denny, who was a guy that I liked,

but they could have had Halliburton, they could have had Devin Missell, Tyrese Maxie, Desmond Bain. There's kind of a pattern among the types of players that they've missed on. Kisbert's been okay. They could have Shingoon, Trey Murphy, Quentin Grimes, and Bones. I feel like these like combo, shot creator, playmaker types, they have, like, whiffed and fell face first into the dirt, missing on those guys over and over and over again.

And that's brutal. If you want to continue a run, if you want to continue, if you want to be good and like without sacrificing like the developmental time, like if you want to have the two timeline thing that we've talked about, like with the Grizzlies, they've drafted well and they've done that. The Wizards, another thing that's just sort of like exacerbating the bleakness of this is that. Like one of their main modes of getting guys, of getting talent. You know, I'm not going to say that they've completely missed,

but I mean, Johnny Davis has been, doesn't, has not looked like an NBA player at times. That's a brutal whiff. I just feel like they, they really left a lot on the table on that front. And it's, it's killing them, honestly. It's really killing. You can lean in, man.

Like, they've completely missed. That was really bleak. I do think Kisperd, and I do think that like, like, Denean, Hashimura, and Troy Brown, they could be serviceable players. But I just think if you look at what they missed out on. Yeah, but not for the, not for the wizard. It's like, that's a big part of it, too, right?

like Denny's still there, but other than that. Those guys aren't going to be your foundation. Yeah, I mean, like, they missed out on like foundational talent. Like those guys in a situation where they're supplementing foundational talent, great, but it's just not there. And you're leaning on them to be something they're not. And so you end up importing these guys and feeling okay, like you were talking about when it's sort of a delusion's really mean word.

I was going to say misleading. I think delusion is maybe okay. Delusion might be the word that sums this. all up for the Wizards. I wonder if their fans would disagree. I mean, my buddy who's like a big, my buddy Kendall who's a big Wizards fan, he's just mad all the time.

He's just always mad. So that's the vibe I get from them through him. My cousin is a big Wizards fan, and he's kind of in the boat of they should have traded Beale a couple years ago. And it's like, sure, it's great that he wants to stay. But it's not really like a Damien Lillard situation where like the city and the,

and the player have this incredible relationship that, you know, will, has intrinsic reasons beyond sports for having value, right? Like, you can understand it from the Blazers perspective, right? But from the Wizards perspective, the team itself is so depressing. And they also, they're not, like, really a basketball city either. So if the Wizards aren't good, it's not like, you know, everyone's going to be talking about Bradley Beale all the time. Like, they have the capitals.

They have their football team. And, like, that's just, it's just a different sort of situation there. And I think that it's weird. I think the fans themselves feel like they want to be done with this experiment. Like I would be pretty tired of watching this like Wizards team play at this point if I was them. Like I wouldn't really blame them for that

because it's not like this magical sort of like, like I love Bradley Beale. I think he's a great player. It's not like Dirk and Dallas. It just isn't. It's not. Yeah. So I was going to say this might be a nice segue to to an end point for us.

But I was going to say, would you say that they are like wandering and when they're lost in the darkness, maybe kind of looking for the light, a. Oh, my God. What'd you think? You watched it, though. If you told me to look for the light,

I'm going to punch you in the face. You're going to break my jaw? Did you, did you watch the, you finished the first episode? I watched the first episode. Of the last of us, right? We don't know what we're talking about.

Did I badger you into watching it, or were you already interested? I was planning on watching it. I probably wouldn't have watched it last night, But I was planning on watching it because it's shot in Edmonton. Yeah, you said that. I thought that was really interesting. I mean, your dad is a political figure there.

Still is correct. Yeah, he is. Did he have awareness of that? No, he was, yeah. No, I didn't know if he had any kind of, any kind of adjacent awareness of it. They invited, well, he was actually here a couple weeks ago helping me move into my new place. Seems beneath a politician. Like, I would think she would do.

Yeah, do you imagine just like being a dad at the same time. It's crazy. Yeah Pesent Yeah But he He was here helping me move in And the premiere of Last of Us

Was actually taking place at the same time So he did go and see it with I think there were some people from Calgary Also in town So I don't know if they I don't know if they shot anything in Calgary as well But Yeah

It's actually It's pretty fun to As I'm not used to this experience I lived in Toronto for a few years So like I got used to kind of like Everything that was shot in like that was set in New York was shot in Toronto. So I'd see like, oh, no, that's my subway station.

That's not New York. But it's not my city, right? So it's a little bit different. But basically, like, my Instagram stories for, like, the last few days have just been basically, like people pointing out little Edmonton landmarks in The Last of Us, like the Leo pointing at the TV screen meme. That was me the entire time watching The Last of Us. Just, you know, White Ave was in there a bunch.

And this is just going to get Edmonton Corr now. I saw it. I don't even know what that is. And there was a point where they moved it to Boston. So it's like, oh, I wonder how they're going to do this. And I was like, oh, no, it's all the bricklight buildings like, you know, on 104th. And yeah, like that, it just like a lot of it actually made a ton of sense. But I did.

I love the idea that the showrunners were like, okay, so it's going to be Austin 20 years ago and also an apocalypse. Edmonton. Edmonton. That's perfect. Yeah, that's logical. Like, I could see how they got there. It's very linear. Yeah.

It's cool to watch your own place in a thing. Like, even like when they were getting stuck in. when they were trying to escape and they were stuck in traffic and I was like, oh, I've been stuck in traffic on that. Like, it's usually winter when things get that piled up and bad. But yeah, that's a hen day right there. That's cool. So, yeah, that was honestly, I will let you take the floor because that was probably the part

of it that I enjoyed the most. I'm not sure I'm in love with the show itself. Oh, Jesus. I'm really disappointed. Hornet Leg, have you been watching The Last of Us? You like that show? You know what I'm talking about? You down?

I know what you're talking about, but I haven't watched it yet. I'm alone. I'm in a wheel. I'm lost in the darkness with, just a bunch of people with bad taste, what it feels like, frankly, if it was os mutantes, he would have watched.

I'm just saying, that's all, you know. If they're on that show, I would have watched it already. But I'm still catching up on Lotus, you. Oh, okay. What episode are you on? Oh, I'm just starting season two. Oh, okay.

Okay. All right. We'll talk about that. We'll talk about that when you're done. That's what people want to hear from us 100%. I think so. Yeah, I'm kidding. I love it.

I love the game. I think it's awesome. I've been one of those people that was a diehard for the game. I've played it multiple times. They're nailing it. I think it's good. It's well acted.

I love the changes they're making and the vibe's right. And I'm excited to see. I mean, I know where it's going to go because I've played it. But I'm sure my wife has really enjoyed me, you know, every five seconds being like, oh,

that's exactly like the game. That's exactly like the game. So she finally was like mocking me. Like, don't say that again. What does she think about it? I think she likes it. I haven't heard her say otherwise. But yeah,

Gotcha. Good show. HBO. Yeah, it's got some cool, cool explosions, stuff like that. I can definitely see that it's like. There's a little more to it than that. Yeah. Is there?

No, seriously. Seriously. If you can sell me on like a reason that I should be invested in one of these characters other than like his daughter died, like I'm here. Like seriously. Like give it to me. You must just be really cold if you can't relate to some of these characters. They've suffered such excruciating loss.

This is about, it's a story about people trying to preserve. their humanity and find hope when there is none and you know what's worth what's worth how do you grieving and uh there's all kinds of stuff going on here the parental instincts and yeah i think that's the undertone that they're trying to give to us and like sure i can buy in to like convince myself why i should care about these action scenes but we're not actually getting a lot of that at least in the first episode which was by the way the size of two episodes so i mean i feel like they could had done a little bit of both. But, you know, I think

I saw this out. I just watched, I just watched the worst person in the world. It was, it's about me. Thank you for watching that. I appreciate that. It's a movie that came out in, have you seen it?

Either you guys seen it? No, no. It came out in 2021 and it's just, it's an incredible movie. Everyone should go watch it. But I was watching this, like, YouTube video essay about it after. And it talks about how stories

aren't about like what they're about they're about how they're about it so like I can I can get into what the last of us is about but like the how of it is just it's not it just hasn't been that interesting to me yet like I get it I get what they're telling me

but they're telling me in a way that I'm not particularly that interested in but a lot of people other people like it so hey more power to them more power to you know like like the things that you like watch the second episode and get back to me see if you like it well We'll maybe do a little check-in to see if... Let's do it.

You know what? I'm going to watch the next episode, and I'm going to, like, specifically point out different places in Edmonton and just come, like, come with a list next time. Because this time, I was a little disorganized this time. I'm going to be more organized with it. Well, I'll get all the references since I know so much about Edmondon's. Exactly. It'll be perfect. Yeah.

And everyone, I know most NBA fans are from Edmonton, too. So, like, we're just, you know, I like to give the people what they want. You got to. You got to give them what they want. Give them what they need. Exactly. Exactly. What they didn't know they needed, you know, which is, by the way, the worst person in world.

Everyone should watch it. You guys should watch it. We should talk about it. It came out in 2021. So I think it's like super timely right now to be discussing it. Yeah, I think it's a great movie. That's like, that's my recommendation of the week. Okay.

All right. I'll make time for it. Thank you. Thank you, Kyle. Appreciate that. Well, thank you for making time for this podcast today. Always. Thank you to everyone who made it to the.

this point for making making the time for us we appreciate you thank you chris for producing as always and we will talk to you guys next week over and out