The Ringer NBA Show - Why Did Steve Kerr Move Away From the Pick-and-Roll? Plus, Examining the Heat’s Truth Serum | The Answer

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Justin and Michael begin the podcast by sharing their reactions and insights from the Lakers' exciting win over the Warriors in Game 4 of their playoff series. They give big flowers to Lonnie Walker IV, question Steve Kerr’s coaching decisions down the stretch, and shine a light on LeBron James’s pacing and influence on the game. Next, they dive into the Heat’s impressive victory over the Knicks, dissect Julius Randle’s performance, and praise Erik Spoelstra’s defensive strategy (24:56). Hosts: Justin Verrier and Michael Pina Associate Producer: Chris Sutton Production Supervision: Ben Cruz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bill finally gave the ringers Philly crew a podcast. I'm Ben Solac. And I'm Shiel Capadia. That's right, just a couple of Philly guys with a new space to fire off some Eagles takes, get caught up in the Sixers, chaos, and more. We'll be coming to you twice a week on Sundays and Thursdays, plus bonus episodes whenever we get breaking news or Philly drama. Plus when Hardin and Embed somehow convince you suckers that this year's going to be different, our fellow Philly stands at the Ringer will have you covered on the Sixers and all your other favorite teams in town. It's Philly Sports, Shield. What could possibly go wrong? Join the fun and follow the ringers Philly special now on Spotify. Hello and welcome to The Answer. I am not Sirat Sohi.

I am Justin Verrier, just coming in out of nowhere, kind of like Lonnie Walker to the befuddlement of everybody listening to this podcast. But joining me, a mainstay, the Anthony Davis of this podcast, Michael Pina, what's up, buddy?

Was that a compliment? Or a backhanded compliment? I think it depends on what day we're recording, actually. Okay. I'll take it. Thank you so much. Justin, this is a pleasure. I don't even know what we just watched.

You said Lonnie Walker's name. He hit a lot of big shots tonight and the Lakers are up 3-1. I'm kind of stunned. Not going to lie. How are you feeling? Yeah, I didn't really expect to be doing this. There was at some point I just assumed that this would be the triumphant, Warriors go small, bringing it back to the Bay sort of podcast and we would see what we'd get in the next game.

We did get probably the game that I think we've been waiting for all series. It seems like we had two blowouts in a row. And this is what everybody wanted. We wanted Steph countering AD. But unfortunately at the end there, it ended up being Lonnie Walker and Steph kind of dueling. Maybe we should just jump in there. We're going to get to the heat and the Knicks game four.

But Lonnie Walker, are you as surprised as I'm assuming everybody who watched this game? Yeah, I did not expect in a game where LeBron played 43 minutes. AD played 43 minutes. Steph played 42 minutes and took 30 shots and ran 49 pick and rolls, which is five more than he has at any other game this season. Lonnie Walker hit, what, like five contested pull-up twos in the fourth quarter. Just madness. I'm a little curious because it seemed to me, as you said,

like the Warriors go small coming into this game, starting Gary Payton the second. And they bring him into every Steph pick and roll, drag. They have AD guarding Gary Payton the second. AD comes up to the screen. There's just a wave of four on threes, layups. They're getting everything at the rim. In the second half, Divenham to his credits, which is the matchup puts AD on Andrew Wiggins. And the Warriors go away from it.

And I don't really understand why. I think that I hope someone asked Steve Kerr, we're recording this right after the game ended. I hope someone asked Steve Kerr why they went away from Steph pick and rolls with 80s man until very late in the game. But I thought that was just really curious. They're having so much success. And it opened the door for Lonnie Walker, I guess, to take over.

Well, I do wonder if that circles back to the minutes these guys played. Because also Steph Curry played 42 in this game. And they were very, very hard minutes. As you referenced, he pretty much ran a pick and roll every goddamn time down the court. And so I think you saw in that last crucial possession there, not the Dramon one, but the one where Steph got two attempts where AD was draped all over. And one was basically a one footed long two that he kind of hoisted up. And the second one was a fall away from like 30 feet back just because that's the type of shot you're going to get against AD. And I do wonder if just like

the minutes of doing that over and over again kind of wore on them to the point where we're this is probably not the guy you want to see on a crucial bucket. And on the other side of this, I also wonder if that's why Lonnie Walker kind of popped off here in the fourth quarter, where we've seen over and over again, the Lakers are so methodical. You look at that starting lineup. There's not a lot of like dynamic athleticism still there, definitely for the position, but not necessarily just in general. And Walker was just like shot out of a cannon, man.

He just seemed like he was so much quicker getting in and out of things. And obviously he hadn't played for most of the game. but I wonder how much of this is coming down to minutes and fatigue because the stars are getting ridden as hard as anyone in the playoffs right now. No, you made a really good point about just the mental fatigue factor of going up against Anthony Davis when he's in the paint as often as he is and they can't get anything. There was one play where Steph beat his man off the bounce and like Anthony Davis was pinching into the paint but wasn't there yet. and Austin Reeves was standing there, and Steph throws up this moonball floater that doesn't go in as if he thinks

Anthony Davis is creeping around the corner. With 139 left in the game, Clay Thompson took a three that was, I can't think of a worse shot that he's ever taken in his career, to be honest with you. And if you go back and watch the replay, Steve Kerr throws his hands up.

Like, Steve Kerr was an agony when Clay let go of that ball. And he looked at him afterwards, like, what are you doing? And I, You know, this was a really bad game for Clay on both ends. Steph didn't have his three ball falling. And those two shots that you referenced,

the stepback from the mid-range, which was like, I'm just, it's like, why aren't you going? Why aren't you blowing by this dude? It's like that's what he's been, I'm thinking about game seven against the Sacramento Kings.

I know the personnel is completely different. But Steph Curry was just like waltzing into the paint. And he had these legs and he had a spring to his step. And that it just wasn't there tonight. And it was just like the word I would have to use to describe it is just desperation. And you don't really associate that word with the Golden State Warriors, particularly in a close game like this, when they should be able to out-execute the Los Angeles Lakers. But you have to credit the Lakers for everything that they did in the defensive end, Lonnie Walker hitting those shots. I mean, Lonnie Walker had an air ball when he should have just given it to Anthony Davis.

the post. That's how like confident he was in the fourth quarter. So credit to him. But I mean, amazing defensive performance, I think, from the Los Angeles Lakers. And at the same time, bad luck shooting, I would say, also for the Golden State Warriors. Yeah, that's the one thing that if you're going to just look at this in a bigger picture, that really jumps out because there was a point in the game. And I think Stan Van Gundy even pointed toward this. And I think Stan Van has been pretty sharp these playoffs in particular in these game, where he's like, If the Warriors just hit a couple of these threes, it feels like they could just run away with it. And they just couldn't find an answer.

Steph, as you mentioned, was just almost historically bad for his high bar from the three-point line. But he's just looking around for anything to come here. And this is kind of the story of the Warriors, this playoffs, and maybe even recently here where it's like, yeah, Steph's going to hit the shots. And you can count on Clay to come up with something every couple of games, I guess, at this point. Andrew Wiggins hasn't been sharp from the three-point line. Gary Payton is probably a guy you don't want to look for those shots, but he did okay with them. Dremont, obviously, not a shooter.

Like, Moses Moody was, like, one of the, like, the most veteran hands or the steadiest pair of hands you can get from the perimeter. And he's, what, a second-year player. And so I feel like the Warriors have to be kicking themselves because it felt like if they could just make, like, one or two more of those, this would have been a different game. And Kerr is just, like, searching. I mean, he played 10 guys in this game. And I'm including Jamichael Green who played two minutes. But 10 guys in a game four down to one just it kind of boggles the mind honestly. I mean, he went to Jordan Poole.

I don't know how long we're going to spend talking about Jordan Poole. But he was like abysmal. I don't think he's going to see the floor at all in game five. Maybe for the rest of this series, maybe for the rest of this postseason, if the Golden State Warriors advance. I mean, that's how bad he was. They close with Moses Moody, a 20-year-old. And I don't think that that was necessarily the wrong decision.

You could go Dante DiVincenzo. You could go Gary Payton a second, but Gary Payton the second is a little smaller and does not space the floor whatsoever. And they just don't guard him. So I don't know. It's just, I go back to the word desperation again, Justin. It's just shocking to see the Golden State's,

Warriors kind of fall in a game like this where they're completely out of answers by the end of it. And they're throwing up these shots that just like don't have a prayer from some of the greatest shooters who've ever lived. The Moody stock is booming right now, I have to say. Like, I'm starting to wonder if Moody is going to be the sole survivor of the two-track plan for the Warriors. Because Cumminga is definitely way more athletic and has the potential. another D&P in this game for Jonathan.

I mean, I wouldn't blame, especially because you're getting so many good minutes out of Draymond and the small ball look. And if you're going to go small ball, you need extra wings. And what is Moses Moody? If not just like a plug and play 3 and D guy who clearly is shooting well enough to stick out there. And he has size. He's smart. He was catching, like he had that catch in the middle where he was on the transition and he got a bucket from Steph, I believe it was. And then he's just making the right passes.

I don't mean to make this the moody conversation here, but I think it's an interesting contrast to Jordan Poole, who we might talk about him longer than he played tonight because he's just so dreadful. And we were talking about this weekend on group chat. It's like the natural progression of the cur lineups was going to be to go small. And you're inclined to say,

oh, you go to pool because that's the guy they went to a lot last year, right? You want to add a little extra juice. You bring the pool party to the table, right? I didn't even give it really much of a look. And I don't blame him because he was so awful in this game. And it's also starting to clearly affect his confidence. Like, so it's just a trickle down effect. So to your point, like, I don't, I don't know who is you could put out there and really trust.

Actually, we saw who Kurt trusts. It's the six guys he put in the fourth quarter because I think he only made one sub. It was like the starters. And then he brought in Moody for Gary Payton second. No, I mean, they shifted the rotation for this game. They started the second quarter with the starting. five. They started the fourth quarter with the starting five, which you don't typically see. Partly because it seemed like Gary Payton had an issue. What was it that he was just like he had to run off the court and vomit? Was that what happened? I, yeah, I don't know if this was CGI if I was seeing a deep fake. But yeah, he had vomit in his mouth, it seemed on some of the clips I was looking at on Twitter. So I hope he's feeling better. I don't know what that was all about. But yeah, I just, I think that going small, the way that they did was absolutely necessary for a variety of reasons.

And I mean, they closed game one. It's so fascinating. They closed game one the last six minutes with the pool party. Jordan Poole, obviously he misses that deep shot with 11 seconds to go that would have put them ahead. And he's criticized for it. But I think they were plus eight with that lineup. and then in game three, Kurt did not go to it at all tonight.

I don't think he went to it at all. I don't think we're going to see it again. Maybe ever. Or the lineup. Well, both. But definitely the lineup. And it's just, it's really interesting because you need guys who can,

like one of the big things that, one of the reasons why I think that they started Gary Payton the second, obviously there's the offense with the short roles and all that. But he put the clamps on. DeAngelo Russell, who was just a total no-show in this game. And taking him out of it was a big factor, especially early. So, like, I think the Warriors are also at their best when they can get stops and run. And they did that a lot tonight, or way more than they did in game three at least.

But I don't know, man, like, going forward, what are you, like, what you're feeling here? They're down 3-1 is this series over? is, are the warrior, are you still, are you counting out Steph, Clay, Drayman? Just what's the, what are the vibes right now for you? It's definitely going to be tough. I mean, the odds are against them. But the crazy thing is, I think the small ball actually worked. And it kind of brings me back to the point about like if they had just made a couple

threes, this would have been a different game because you saw just like how the ball just pinged like so crisply and so quickly. Like there were so many possessions, it seems like they would run the pick and roll. And the ball wouldn't even hit the ground because. because it was just going between Dremont to pay in and then finishing it off with a Wiggins bucket or vice versa. And it's clearly like that's where they feel most comfortable. To the point where Dremont had that play where I don't know if it was a handoff or what,

I think it was a pick and roll where he went behind his back and then he had the scoop layup. Like all of a sudden Dremont- Yeah, the keeper nasty. He just starts looking like Magic Johnson out there. It's like you could tell that like this really clicks so much stuff into place. There obviously Clay didn't like go along with that, but you would assume that he's going to have one of those clay games. down the road there, especially at home where they're much better. And so, like, oddly enough,

I'm buoyed by what they got out of the small ball look that I think they can return to it again. The problem, as we were talking about before, is the minutes. And two, it's just like, it's, it's hard minutes against guys that are going to wear on you. I mean, we should probably talk about LeBron in this game. It also feels like LeBron is kind of the opposite, where LeBron is figuring out how to pace himself. He's allowing AD to kind of do his thing. And then he's just, like, he's jumping in in the right opportunities when they need them. When they need to start match a punting against Steph or whomever it is, LeBron's going to take the reins and he's probably going to get a good play out of it,

you know? So that is going to be something you really have to worry about, especially when they have the momentum and the advantage is in the series. Can I ask you a question? Is LeBron pacing himself or is he just not as good as he used to be? Well, if he pacing himself, I mean, like consciously because he knows that he's going to do it later on? I don't know, but it is working its way out that way.

and we all assume that LeBron is just like five years in the future. So I guess we'll just give it to him for this time. It's fair. They closed this game. So LeBron finishes 10 for 25, 40%, two for nine from by the three point line. He took that would be kill shot straightaway three that just had like no chance of going in because he can't buy a three. Like he takes now like 10 a game and he's not making any of them. But I guess that's just part of the process now.

He was a team worst minus eight. It's a one game plus minus whatever, like not a huge deal. But what was really interesting to me throughout the game and particularly in the second half was they just like he was like I'm going to be old LeBron slash young LeBron again. And I'm going to hunt Steph Curry repeatedly in pick and roll. I'm going to take him on the block. I'm going to post him up. And when he did that, they got some good stuff on it out of it.

They got some so-so stuff out of it. But like when he posted stuff up, the Warriors treated it like, we don't care. Like go ahead. And he didn't have a lot of success, like one-on-one in the post against Steph Curry. So like, look, they walk away with a win. We started this conversation talking about Lonnie Walker. And in a lot of ways, Lonnie Walker bailed LeBron and Eadie out offensively in the fourth quarter. I think Austin Reeves is kind of an unsung hero of this game.

He hit like countless pull-up twos from the elbow, just like they're going under the pick and roll. He's pulling up. He's hitting shots. They didn't seem like a big deal because a lot of them came with the Warriors up like seven, eight, nine points. But they were huge. And down the stretch, he was pretty big offensively.

And he's been okay, steady throughout this entire postseason. But like, I don't know, like, how to judge LeBron anymore at all. Like 27, 9 and 6. By the rings, Mike. By the rings. Sure. No, he's obviously amazing.

But just like within the context of comparing him against who he's competing against right now, as opposed to his former self, it's just really, it's really challenging, honestly. Like I don't know how good he is, how dominant he is, how much he's struggling. obviously they got it done tonight and it's a massive win. The NBA playoffs are in full swing and you can turn crossovers into cash with Fandul. Just visit fandul.com slash ringer NBA right now in place a $5 bet and you'll get an instant $150 in bonus bets win or lose. My favorite underdog bet is the Phoenix Suns getting five and a half points.

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Virginia, 1-800 next step, or text next step to 5333,000. 4-2, Arizona, 1-888-7-89-77-7-7. Or visit ccpg.org slash chat, Connecticut, 1-8009 with it, Indiana, 1-800-5-22-4700, or visit KS, Gamblinghelp.com, Kansas, 18777-770, stop, Louisiana, visit wwwbomblinghelp. dot org, Maryland, 1,800, 522 4, 4,700, Wyoming, or visit www.800 gambler.net, West Virginia. Do you feel like we've learned more about the Lakers in this game or the Warriors? That's a great question. I mean, probably the Lakers, if only because they were able to grind out a game in which, like, I kind of feel like the Warriors lost this more than the Lakers.

I hate doing praise pie here, but it did feel like the Warriors had this opportunity to take this game. And it felt like the Lakers just made enough plays, made enough adjustments in order to pull it out. Like, I'm also looking at the 20 free throws that the Lakers took in this game, which outside of the game two loss would have been their fewest. And you have to imagine that considering that the Lakers are one of the best paint offenses and foul drawing offenses, whether or not that's because of some referee shenanigans, who's to say? But like, it's clearly probably going to swing the other way where they're probably going to get a lot more than that in the next couple games. And so it feels like that's an opportunity that the Warriors

probably lost here. I mean, what do you think? Well, going 20 for 20 helps in like a one possession game. That's good for them. They did a really good job there. They hit a bunch of long twos. I don't know. I think that the war, I was expecting the Warriors to win this game by double digits. And I know my Twitter mentions are going to catch on fire tomorrow when people hear this and replay two weeks ago when I said that the Warriors were going to sweep the series. That prediction was obviously incorrect. I did not. Yeah, I was, I was okay. I was in the ballpark. But no, I mean, I just, I'm in the business of like not betting against Steph, Clay, and Dremont, and I'm still trying to process them losing a game like this. They just haven't

for 10 years lost basketball games like this. And it's just like everyone gets old and weird stuff happens. But when you put yourself in a position where, it's close in the fourth and all of a sudden you bring the guy you gave the mid-level exception to who was like completely absent for like four or five months off the bench and he's just got these like batteries in his legs and he's just jumping higher than everybody else and he draws a foul chasing clay around a pin down on draymond like a huge play late in the game just i don't know it's just anything can happen in one game and now the lakers are up three-one and i'm I still don't feel like the series is over.

I don't want to bury Steph Curry, Clay, and Draymond yet, but game six, I'm thinking game six is going to be a tough task for them, for sure. And this is always why I had some modicum of hope for the Lakers in this postseason. I think in that little like playoff roundup we did on the website, I suggested that they had a pathway to the West Finals, in part because one, the path was there, right? just the matchups lined up. So the grizzly, they had the Grizzlies,

and then the Kings and the Warriors, two teams that didn't have the interior half to go against AD and as we've seen, that's kind of borne out. But also because they just have options. And it seems like they're very good about cycling through them to the point where they get to a Lonnie Walker. As you mentioned,

a guy who was like playing significant minutes for them in the old Russell Westbrook era, which feels like now 10 years ago, all of a sudden, 27 minutes, 6 for 9. He's just like coming out of nowhere. We haven't even gotten. the Malik Beasley unearth him from out of nowhere to see if he could just hit seven threes in a row, probably because he also would give up 93s on the other end because he can't guard his own shadow.

But like, they just have enough guys here to keep like cycling through until one hits to find the combination. And it just, it just so happened that it works. And part of that, honestly, is just Austin Reeves, a circle back to your point about just Reeves being kind of an unsung hero here. Like he hit half of their threes in this game. And this is a team that desperately needs that extra juice from the perimeter because it's not coming from virtually anywhere else. It's not coming from LeBron here. And so I don't know. I wonder if like the Lakers and just like a bigger sense, just have the one thing.

A lot of these teams that are built more perimeter oriented don't have, which is like the ability to cram it down into the paint. Like the Warriors somehow ended up with more points in the paint in this one. I think they had 52 to the Lakers 46, but Lakers 46. like that's going to beat most teams on most nights. So it's pretty big one. We should mention, by the way, third career, triple double for Steph Curry. He had 14 assists in this one. I believe he hasn't had that many since game three of the 2015 first round against the Los Angeles Clippers.

So. Wow. Yeah. Which I believe is the series where maybe that was the one where David Lee did. didn't play. No, no, that would have been 2014 because 15 was when, when they won. But, uh, yeah. So it's been a while since he's been activated this much as, as a distributor. And clearly it's a role that like, they're going to leave these open shooters. He's going to be able to hit. Um, anything else from this game you want to touch on before we move on to the next

one. I just want to reiterate DeAngelo Russell 1 for 10, not a good player, but we can move on from there. Okay. It's good footnote this one. So the Heat 109, Knicks. 101 heater now up three to one here. I got to say, like, I think if you're being sympathetic to the Milwaukee Bucks, you could look back on that series and say, like, you know, at the end of the day, Jimmy Butler had one of the best individual performances in NBA playoff history. This is, like, he clearly just dominated this in a way that you cannot plan for, and nothing was going to stop them. With this series, I almost feel like the heat have proven pretty definitively that they're just the better team.

And we saw that play out in a variety of ways, just the defensive, just malfunctioning of the Knicks in various instances. It felt like the help defense was all over the place. And then also late in the game where it felt like they would crawl back within five or whatever it was. And then the heat would just hit five three pointers in a row or something. Or they would grab seven offensive rebounds as they did in the fourth quarter. The Knicks only had eight the entire game.

And so I just feel like, we're at Occam's Razor here and I just think the key are the better team and that's what's what's going to end up with the series. I would love slash hate to be a fly on the wall in J.B. Bickerstaff's living room

watching this game. It's like you just get pummeled on the offensive glass. You can't get a rebound to save your life in that series losing in such disappointing passion, overpowered, such a physical Knicks team.

And then you watch this game and like the 13 offensive rebounds, the nine extra shots that they got, the heat got over the Knicks. They were out hustling New York the entire game. Like winning a game like that, I didn't see Miami doing, frankly. It was like they sucked New York superpowers up and just adopted them as their own. Like it seemed like they hit every three and it seemed like that for two weeks now for the heat, but they were 13 for 39. Like, missed a lot of shots.

And it didn't seem to matter because Kyle Lowry or Caleb Martin or Max Struce was just going to grab the rebound and kick it out and then they'd take another one. But, yeah, like a quietly, like steadily brilliant performance again by Jimmy, who is, I don't know, is he like the third, second, third best player in this entire postseason? just definitely the most consistent, I would say, on both ends. And just touching every single area of basketball and impacting it in a positive way, he was amazing, always just gets to the line when he needs to. And to what you said a few minutes ago, it was like just consistently a five, six point game,

this whole way, yet the Knicks felt like they were down 30, because every single time it looked like they were going to go on a little mini run and tie it or potentially take the lead. like Jimmy Butler would just do something great or Kevin Love would hit a three Kevin Love was like in motion hitting threes and it's just like what I don't like was there a time machine that you stepped into

in the locker room like I don't I did not understand that at all that was amazing stuff but it does feel like Miami is the better team and I mean what part of the Knicks do you want to talk can we talk about Julius Randall for a second? Yeah I mean that's the crazy thing about this like Randall followed out which that'll happen with Julius Randall.

I don't think he had a particularly poor game, especially in comparison to some of the rest of the games he's had this series. And so, like, I almost feel like this was about as good as it can get for the Knicks, and yet it still didn't get all that good, you know? This was the first playoff game of Julius Randall's career, where he finished above 50% shooting from the field. Is that true? Oh, my God.

Yeah, he fouled out, as you said, with three minutes to go, down seven. Not ideal. Committed six turnovers. Had one close out on Caleb Martin where I don't think his knees bent at all. And Caleb Martin just blew by him for a dunk. You just know you're in a bad spot when that happens. So I don't know. Like Randall, sometimes he just plays basketball like it's not a team sport. And this was one of those nights.

Like his isolations are just so gross. He's isolating against Bam at a bio who's like the greatest isolation defender of his generation. and it's just like, this is the game plan? Like, what are we, what is going on here? So I'm, I, numbers wise, he, he produced, I suppose, was relatively efficient. I suppose, yeah. I just am not a, not a Randall person when it comes to, and I spend like the whole regular season defending this guy, but like when it comes to games that matter, he just does not,

it's just like his brain malfunctions in ways that are really, really damaging to his basketball team. So that was rough. But the Knicks had a really good season. Wow. That's it. I think I'm ready to bury the Knicks. Yeah.

The thing with Randall is, I feel like he constantly is playing a completely different game than everyone else on his team, where he constantly gets like roped into these one-on-one mono-mono battles against players he shouldn't, like Bam out of bio, for instance. And he'll just like all the. sudden break off the offense and just take a step back or he'll try to muscle his way to the rim. Having said that, like, it was as good as it was going to get, even with those caveats there

and it didn't work. I just feel like the heat have like truth serum for these other team where they kind of reveal all of the underlying issues with your team in the first round, the bucks obviously being a little bit too programmatic and just like not realizing what a badass, I guess Jimmy is was, was another one. But also just like, the, the Knicks inability to guard anyone. It is just like wildly clear in this one. It just felt like even like simple actions were causing a lot of issues with the help defense.

I guess Randall is a part of that because he's not going to help you there. But to me, like, I don't think this was on Randall, this loss, but I could see if you want to take a bigger picture. Like I do feel like the Knicks have probably hit their head on the ceiling that I think people have been waiting for for a while with this team. Whereas just, yes, the first round was cute. You kind of acquitted yourself. And more importantly to, not only to just the public at large, but probably some of the players you're going to need in order to take a next step, there's a foundation in place, which we should say is like not something that the New York

Knickerbockers have had for decades. So that is something. Very fair. But it is coming at the cost of probably a lot of these players have got you to that point, which one, Julius Randall is probably the most representative of that and most responsible for where they are right now. I think that the three-point shooting is the one, like, yeah, I'm being critical of Randall, but like as a team going up against a Miami heat defense that is just like so locked in on their game plan and just never beat themselves on any possession and they scrap and they claw, they'll go zone, they'll blitch you, they'll, have Kevin Love in a drop and for some reason it works.

Like they just, whatever Spoe wants them to do, they do it and they do it really well. And against the Knicks, their game plan is clearly we're going to pack the pain and force you to hit threes. And nine for 28 tonight, haven't been able to hit the three ball all series. I thought Tom Thibodeau did a really good job starting Quentin Grimes, who's one of their best three-point shooters. And he finished, he win three for seven tonight. So that was a step in the right direction over Josh Hart, which added some, punch to the bench, but they just don't have shooting. And I think that the kind of break in case of emergency player you have on your bench is Evan

Fornier and are we going to see Evan Fornier in game five, maybe? It's bleak. But that's kind of what they need. It's extremely bleak because if you play him, I mean, Spowe's just like licking his lips in that case. Like it's like, we're going to just destroy this dude. So I think both of these teams honestly are like flawed in their construction. I mean, I didn't anticipate the Knicks getting this far. I certainly didn't anticipate the heat getting this far,

particularly after watching them in the play-in and after watching them for five months in the regular season. But here they are. They're one went away from the Western Conference, or I'm sorry, the Eastern Conference finals. And what a world, honestly. It's amazing. Just an amazing job by everyone in that organization.

Well, I want to talk about the Knicks just a little bit more big picture here, because I think the three-point thing is really interesting because it could also come down to the construction of the team because they have a lot of these more grinder types, the more physical Julius Randall, RJ Barrett types. And they kind of doubled down on that identity

by getting Josh Hart at the trade deadline. A deal that I feel like was a pretty big win for them. I assume they'll bring them back this off season. It worked for them in the first round. They clearly out-muscled the calves. how much that's due to J.B. Bicker staff is up for interpretation, I think. In Mike's interpretation, it was a pretty big deal in that whole rebounding disadvantage. But like I, so on the one hand, they knew they need more shooters.

On the other hand, is there any impulse and tibs that says, like, can we try small ball out? Like a couple minutes. Maybe like garbage time in one of these losses. We're just to see if it can work. like if we're saying we need more shooters on the court and we're saying that Randall and Brunson and Barrett have to be there because there are our most important players, can we like maybe like shoe in like a fifth shooter into the spot instead of Mitchell Robinson who's clearly not providing that rebounding advantage that we're saying was there in the first round and isn't in the second round? So at what point is this also a Tibbs issue? It's interesting because Julius Randall was in the three point contest at All-Star weekend.

And so, you know, maybe we're overstating things. No, you make a really good point with just the construction of the team. And like in this day and age, obviously you need outside shooting. If you can get guys who, I think Jalen Brunson is perfectly capable of hitting pull-up threes at a pretty good clip, a pretty decent volume. Just also, he played really well, I thought, in this game. has been sensational in a lot of ways, despite the ankle injury in this postseason. But, yeah, you draft Quentin Grimes,

and he's kind of the ideal 3-N-D player that you want on a roster like this, and maybe just play in more minutes. I know he had some health issues a few weeks ago. But, yeah, I mean, that's what you're going to do heading into this off-season. You're definitely going to look for as much shooting as you can, particularly in the front court.

it's going to be really interesting to see what they do with Julius Randall if they look to keep him, if they look to move on. I know this team is obviously going to be star hunting, just like this roster could look a lot different next season. Who knows? But if you do keep Randall, like having a big who can protect the rim is really important. And having a big who can protect the rim and shoot threes is really hard to find. So it's easier said than done, I would say. I just like, I guess, how they've kind of functioned on both ends with kind of what they have. And I think Hart gave them a lot in the hustle department and a lot of his like coast to coast pushes for layups off defensive rebounds.

That stuff evaporates in the playoffs against teams that are scouting and looking for it. And the Miami Heat are probably the best team in the league at scouting. what you do good and taking it away. So yeah, I don't know. It's going to be interesting offseason for the Knicks. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I really think the series is over for them, unfortunately.

Good season, though. Well, you brought up the heats just like ability to expose the Knicks. I think this is a good opportunity to flip to our sponsored segment here from our friends from State Farm. So today's episode is brought to you by State Farm. State Farm is here. give you a fresh take on insurance, one where you worry a lot less about those what-ifs. Like, what if our home floods?

What if I get into an accident? State Farm is like your best defensive string. When the other team comes charging down the court, you've got peace of mind that you won't be caught off guard. And I feel like the heat really exemplify this. Our friend Cooper Moorhead from heat.com tweeted this out during the game. The heat special power is making the other team. team look bad more so than making themselves look great?

I thought that was a really good way of putting it. What in this game, Mike, do you think, like kind of led into that? What were the, what was Spow doing at the controls here to really take advantage of what the Knicks lacked? Yeah, I mean, you squeeze the ball out of Jalen Brunson's hands. You blitz them in the pick and roll.

You hunt Jalen Brunson on the other end. They got a lot of really good stuff out of that. You put him in actions. That's something that the Cavaliers started to do and then stop doing as that series went along for some reason. But you have Jimmy Butler at your disposal. You bring whoever Jalen Brunson's hiding out on into the action and you go at him. On the other end, when he's Mitchell Robinson sets a screen or whoever it is, you blitz and you are able to kind of take advantage of the fact that they don't have a lot of great passers on their roster. like when Julius Randall gets the ball in a four on three, he usually holds it, waits for the defense to reset, and then wants to go one on one. And it's just like not efficient basketball. So I thought that was a really smart and obvious decision by Spoh throughout this game. And the other thing is just like they keep catching them sleeping in these transition buckets, like these great outlet passes by Kevin Love. They continue to take advantage of that. So, so yeah,

suppose brilliant and I don't know what adjustments you can make honestly because of your personnel and just kind of the disadvantages you have that we just talked about with the three-point shooting. Yep. And there's a reason why adaptable defense is a must have in basketball, Mike. You get all the coverage you need throughout the court without putting all your resources by the basket with state farm agents give you hybrid coverage in person and over the phone plus digitally so you can get reassurance for those what ifs exactly when and how you need it. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Call or go to StateFarm.com today to create your State Farm personal price plan.

Prices vary by state, options selected by customer availability and eligibility may vary. Anything else from this one? I do have Jimmy Butler's line written down here, 2710, 6.2. It's the second time he's had double-digit assists this postseason. he did it twice in the regular season. It does feel like, and it's probably because of the ankle injury, but it feels like he's almost like taking a cue from LeBron, not putting up a field goal attempt for,

what was it, a quarter and a couple extra minutes there, where he is more laying back in distributor mode, and it's probably just a fault of the Knicks defense that they're allowing him to do so and still pick him apart because it's not really his forte. But on the other hand, it does feel like, we constantly see this evolution of wing scorers where they're able to do this. It brings them up to a next level.

Kauai famously did it a couple years ago. I don't know. It just feels like as if the first round scoring barrage wasn't enough. It feels like Jimmy's also like transitioning to this other aspect of his game. Yeah, he's a complete two-way player. I mean, he can get everybody involved. He can create shots for himself. I think he opened the game with a set shot three-pointer,

which is just hilarious every time he takes one of those, it seems to go in. It's like, why don't you take more of them? I don't understand that at all. But he was very workmanlike in this game, and the nine free throws kind of bear that out. But yeah, he just is so smart in reading defenses, and he's so selfless, and he just always makes the right play except when he doesn't want to. And he has Drew Holiday on him, and he wants to just bully the crap out of something. somebody. But yeah, just a fantastic game from him. Also, when you know, you have Gabe Vincent on

your team, just like throw the ball to Gabe Vincent, have him run a pick and roll. He's going to pull up from 35 feet, knock it down every single time. Apparently, that's a thing that's happening in these playoffs. But, no, Jimmy's great. I will say, like, I also didn't really see this surge from Kyle Lowry coming. Like, he's been amazing off the bench for them. basically these whole playoffs. And like it's a really logical role for him where he just comes into the game with like Caleb Martin and whoever else, Duncan Robinson, whoever else they're going to bring off the bench. And it's just a completely different look. And this dude's still a gamer, still a winner, still just makes amazing play, sacrifices his body.

I thought he was close to being, dare I say, washed up. a few months ago and he's been amazing. He's been giving them incredible minutes in this series and in the first round. Just hitting shots,

like snaking pick and rolls, pull-up threes in transition, just vintage Kyle Lowry stuff. It's just, it adds this totally different dimension to their team and makes them, I don't know if they're going to win

the conference finals. I wouldn't pick them, regardless of who comes out of it in the Sixers Celtic series. But he makes them dangerous in a way that, they thought he would when they traded for him. Yeah, he's probably better suited at this stage of his career,

being the caretaker of a second unit. And Gabe Vincent is probably better being anointed in the first starting lineup. And then also being the found money sort of offense when you need it, right? I saw someone tweet, I forgot. And so I can't give him credit for this, but they said that Kyle Lowry's ass print is all over the series, which I feel like is pretty appropriate. If you're the heat though, are you hoping for the Celtics or the Sixers?

Well, not to jump too far ahead. That's a really interesting question, to be honest with you, because I think the Celtics are better than the Sixers. Celtics have the best offense in the postseason so far by a significant margin, basically getting whatever shot they want in this series against Philly. And that series could have easily been a sweep, if not for amazing plays by James Hardin. And then on the other end, it's like, do you want the revenge factor of what happened last year? And just kind of avenging how you lost in game seven, never leading in that game at home.

They obviously would not have home court in this series. But I feel like, like, Jimmy would just relish that opportunity to go up against Jalen and Tatum and Marcus Smart. And all the bodies they would throw at him and all the schemes. I think, like, he would just. I don't think he would sleep a wink for like a week and a half, however long that series was, would be. On the other end, it's like the Sixers aren't as good. Joel and B. isn't healthy.

And I know I said two seconds ago that I wouldn't pick the heat regardless of who came out, but now I'm thinking about it. And I might pick the heat against the Sixers. Is that a crazy take? Is that a crazy? Okay. Who guards Embed in Bid? Bama at a bio baby. Cody Zell.

Kyle Lowry's ass. This is where he puts in the work. Yeah. Dwayne Deadman Revenge Game as well. I assume that's the revenge game you were talking about. Absolutely, yes. Why don't we wrap it there? Thank you to Chris Sutton on production.

Thank you to Ben Cruz for filling in here. Next week, so we will be back. She was just sick tonight, so I'm just filling in. But until then, we'll see you next time.