The Ringer NBA Show - Why Has Russell Westbrook Been Such a Disaster for the Lakers? | Weekends With Wos

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

Wos is joined by The Washington Post's Ben Golliver to discuss Chet Holmgren's performance at the West Coast Conference championship and how his game will translate to the NBA (1:50). Then they get into Russell Westbrook's disastrous season with the Lakers (11:50), how Joel Embiid has adjusted to James Harden (21:42), and whether Giannis will bring the Bucks back to the Finals (26:48). Host: Wosny Lambre Guest: Ben Golliver Production: Carlos Chiriboga Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, long-time writer with the Atlantic Magazine on tech, culture, and politics. There is a lot of noise out there, and my goal is to cut through the headlines, loud tweets, and hot takes in my new podcast, plain English. I'll talk to some of the smartest people I know to give you clear viewpoints and memorable takeaways. Plain English starts November 16th. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Finally, y'all, I'm back here on weekends. with Waz, of course, I'm Big Waz, a K.A. Wazzy Lamb-Bray, and I'm joined

by a very special guest, a great friend of mine. One of the biggest beasts in NBA media out there, period. My man, National NBA writer for the Washington Post, Ben Gulliver was popping, bro.

Not too much, Waz. It's great to be here. I just want to say quickly, congratulations on your rise, your success here over the last couple years. It's been awesome to watch your pandemic superstar. And I also want to to just thank you for taking a break from all the kitty cat thirst traps on Instagram to actually have a conversation about basketball with me, bro. We're going to take the thirst traps off, Mike.

But thank you. I appreciate that. But, man, wanted to talk a little bit of Westbrook, because obviously you're local here to L.A., and I know you got a lot of Lakers' thoughts. Of course, you've been a big M.B. Guy for a minute, so I do want to talk to you about the season that M.B. is putting together and what's happening in Philly.

But, man, we got you here today at a perfect time because March Madness is starting up. And you just came back from the West Coast Conference Championship where you watched Chet Holmgren get busy. And from what I understand, Ben, you've become, you've been converted. You're now part of the church of Chet. So I was already in, but now I'm like head over heels. Let me just paint this picture for you. So we're talking about like an off-strip casino gym that sits like 5,000 people, right?

You've got R.C. Buford, San Antonio Spurs, architect shown up an hour early to watch this guy. You've got John Hammond, the guy who drafts Janus, sitting courtside, kind of salivating, right? You've got Bobby Webster, Masayu Jiri's right-hand man with the Toronto Raptors, taking him in in person. And this is the West Coast Conference tournament. I mean, this is not the ACC, right? This is not exactly what you would typically consider the biggest age in college basketball, but everybody wants to see this guy. Consider this.

He's listed at 7 feet, 195 pounds. So he's as tall as Joel Embed, but he weighs as much as Kyrie Irving. You know what I'm saying? This guy's in his own galaxy when it comes to the dimension. So that kind of is what gets everybody interested and intrigued off the top, right? But he's got this incredible motor, a great heart. he's about all the right things. He picks Gonzaga, which is sort of this very balanced, unselfish program.

So he's not even really featured there. I mean, they're not even unleashing this guy. And yet he's just all over the court blocking shots, throwing down dunks through traffic. I mean, he'll step out and shoot a three-point or no problem. And I don't know. It's just he's such a unique player. And then you throw on top of that, he could potentially be the first white American-born player to go number one since the mid-1970s.

I mean, almost 50 years that this hasn't happened, right? So I'm just telling you why it's like, imagine the best case scenario for this guy's career. It's absolutely mind-blowing on and off the court what this guy could do. So I want to get into what he's doing on the court first because I can't pretend that I've watched a bunch of Gonzaga games this year. I want to know what was the book on him coming in to the tournament and what you came away from as you watched him up close.

He's like, wow, this is a little bit more than even that thought. Well, the book is always, God, this guy is skinny. You've never seen a guy this skinny. I mean, you look at his thighs. He has the smallest thighs of any top prospect I think I've ever seen in my entire life, right? So if you're talking about lower body strength, core strength, it's just not there. I mean, he's 7 foot, 195 pounds, right? But what I think people need to differentiate is that just because he's light, it doesn't

mean he's necessarily gangly with how tall he is, right? Like, I think people think bowl, bowl, right? or they think Chris Stapp's Porzingis when they hear these measurements. And that's not it. I mean, this guy is super fluid. He's a hooper. I mean, he was Minnesota's Mr. Basketball

as a high school player won four straight titles there. And he's very, very competitive. And so while he gets kind of picked up and displaced in the paint, you know, pretty regularly by college guys, like he goes down there and they're just going to wrap them up, try to wrestle with them, you know, get them off the block, and they're going to have success doing that. He's super comfortable with the ball in his hands.

He can grab a defense. rebound, go up the court, walk into a three-pointer. And so I guess I view him, he's a little bit more KD than KP, right? Like, he moves more like a Kevin Durant than he does like a Chris Stap's Porzingis. And that's not to say he has that level of ceiling, because I think what I saw from Durant, even at a very early age, it's the killer instinct, right? It's the sniper part of easy money sniper. And that's what we're waiting to see from Chet. He's very competitive. Like, he will not back down. If you go into his chest, he's going to try to block your shot. He's not weak. piqued in any way. But he's also not necessarily the takeover guy yet because he's a freshman

on a team where everybody basically averages double figures. They share the ball. They've got this amazing number one ranked offense. They don't need him to be the guy. And so when you're looking forward kind of like for NBA fits, that's where it gets so interesting because you can imagine a team like the Thunder or the Spurs where they have kind of like that collective approach. You could imagine them salivating at dropping him into their system, right? But if you put him out there with Kevin Porter Jr. and Jalen Green, and those guys are just dribbling all day long and chucking all day long, like, he might get lost. Like, it's very possible, right? And so, you know, one other interesting, you know, landing spot for him would be like with Cade Cunningham in Detroit,

right? You've got this amazing, you know, pick and pop, pick and roll type, you know, combination, check and handle the interior defense. Kate can handle the lead playmaking. That could be absolutely sweet, right? So I guess, you know, for me, you know, to long story short, the book is just body, body, body. Like, he's got this weird frame. We've never seen anything like it. And there's just so many more layers to who he is as a player than just the body. So, man, it's interesting because I used to be somebody who was skeptical whenever people would be

like, oh, such and such needs to put on weight. I'm like, all right, the kid's 19. By the time he's my age, he's going to have a beer belly. He's going to feel out. Like, that's just the natural progression of life. Right. But then, honestly, and you bring up KP, because. I think KP is instructive.

And when you talk to people around the MAVs, it's like it's not that he didn't work on getting stronger. The guy has a really high center of gravity and it's kind of nothing he could do about that. Do we think Chet will be able to develop that core strength that's necessary to move guys and actually take advantage of his height and his length and his size? Well, he can only get stronger.

I guess I would put it that way. I mean, look, even his coach is just honest about it. He's like, look, there's times where this guy just gets thrown around like a ragdoll. He's struggled at times during his freshman year. So it's definitely an issue. But what I love about Chet as a 22 prospect is that I think it's less damaging than it would have been 10 years ago or especially compared to like 20 years ago. I mean, like he's not going to hold up against like the Charles Oakley's and the Davis brothers of the world, right? But if you're playing him as a power forward on offense where he's floating

around the perimeter and able to cut and drive and doing a lot of similar stuff to a player like Brandon Ingram on offense, right? And just getting into mid-range jump. and creating like that. And then, of course, finishing lob plays over the top. Like, I don't know if you have to be some super, you know, he-man-type strength guy to get that kind of stuff done. And defensively, what's interesting about him, he blocks a lot of shots sort of like Rudy Gobert does.

It's like the sneak blocks that people aren't expecting. Well, he's just longer than guys with the ball, ball handlers expect. So he'll just come flying across the paint and snatch a shot that, you know, a guy puts up as a runner who thinks he's going to be able to kind of tear drop over the top of him, he'll just snatch that thing and go the other way. And so I think he, even though he's listed at 7 feet 195, I think he looks taller, lighter, and longer than those measurements. And he's got a 7-6 wing span, right? So, I mean, he's got some real ability to impact the game defensively without, you know, really adding a ton of weight just because of his length. And I do think

you're going to want to play him as a four defensively if you can too, right? So, you know, you imagine him like in Orlando. Well, you would have Wendell Carter Jr. playing center. Chet's playing four, right? I mean, maybe in Detroit, it would be Isaiah Stewart's playing center. Chet's taller and longer, but he's playing power for it. That's how I would do it personally. And, you know, in the NBA, how often do we see guys get isolated and picked on as post-up mismatches, right? Like, you know, people go out Steph Curry or, you know, some of these smaller guards, you don't usually see fours and fives, like everybody just break in the office to try to go attack them. So it could happened once in a while, he's going to struggle against players like Embed and Yokach who are just

going to muscle him all over the court. But they muscle everybody. Right, right. Exactly. And I think you can kind of get by in most of those matchups, right? So I'm way higher on his, you know, his positives than I'm concerned about his negatives. I put it that way. Man, I got to say you kind of got me sold. Because to me, once a big guy has it in his mind that he's going to make his bones on defense and actually, you know, dedicates his energy to being great. on that. And that, to me, that says a lot about a guy's mentality and his willingness to do the requisite amount of work to become a special player. So you're on the check train. You think he's the number one prospect in this draft. You like him better than Paolo. You like him better than the

Auburn kid. I like him as the number one prospect. I mean, obviously, it's going to depend on context and who else you have around him and everything else. The other thing I like about him, and this is like, you know, really old school. This is like 75-year-old man stuff. But It's the emotional quotient. So I'm going to give you two scenes from the end of the game. Okay, first, they're celebrating their West Coast Conference title. And one of his teammates, like, takes an elbow to the nose and is like all shook up, right? The first person to check on him is Chet, who stops dead in his tracks, looks at him and it's like,

are you okay? I thought he was about to give him mouth to mouth, was. I'm dead serious. Like, he was that concerned about his fellow man, right? So then fast forward five minutes and they're trying to cut down the nets. and one of his teammates can't get the scissors to work. Who's the first person to volunteer to be like, hey, let me help you out, bro.

I'm going to help you with the scissors. It's Chet. Everybody else was standing around waiting for this guy taking three minutes to cut the net, and Chet's the first person to volunteer. He's just a nice kid. And I think, you know, you see that with guys like Janice and Tim Duncan, where you're talking about leadership personalities.

Maybe they're not going to be the loudest guys in the room. And Chet does strike me as a very even-keeled, quiet type of guy. But he's also the person, I think you could build an organization culture that's positive around him, especially if you're in one of these small markets where, you know, you just need to have somebody who's going to stay, right? And somebody who really is going to buy into your environment, I think Chet really checks those boxes as well. Man, I love it. Great, great, great, great stuff. You went to the West Coast Championship and actually enjoyed your experience. That's, that's, that's one of you. Here's a thing. If my choices are Westbrook yet again,

or let's hop on this train. Come on, man. The crypto, I mean, crypt has been toxic, has it not? I mean, these games are tough to go to, boss. Oh, God, let's get into it, man. I don't know where you were when the trade went down last offseason, but I remember being extremely down on it, then stupidly and foolishly talking myself into,

well, not that Russ has ever demonstrated that he's willing to change his game and do different things and try another. way to be a successful NBA player. But who knows? Maybe, you know, the LeBron effect to have him changing his game, scaling it down, being a smarter player through osmosis, I talked myself into LeBron making this thing work. Yeah. Because I've seen him make so much shit work in the past.

And I stupidly talked myself into it. What were you thinking when the trade went down? And how has it been to see this whole thing come full circle to the complete and utter unmitigated disaster that it's become. Now, I'll be honest, I've been out on Westbrook since Katie left him. I mean, ever since he was doing the photographer vests and the cupcake stuff, I've just been 100% out. And that has just ramped up at every stop.

So coming into this season, after watching it, just not work with Hardin, not work with Bradley Beale, I was like, look, you know, LeBron could carry this team to a three or four seed by himself, right? But I don't see Westbrook being a central part of their championship. formula. The first game of the season, my column was you have to play Westbrook less. You cannot be this dependent on this guy. It's just too many mistakes, especially in late game scenarios. And so that has just not unfolded, right? Frank Vogel has not really cut his role. He's one of the leading minutes guys in the entire league, which is just astonishing to me. And he's earned all the

booze that he's received in Los Angeles. I mean, he doesn't have the shot selection understanding. He doesn't have the self-awareness of his limitations. He's made so many critical turnovers in late game situations. And then defensively, man, if teammates could boo each other, LeBron would boo Westbrook on the defensive end almost every single night, man. The looks and the glars that these guys exchanged when they don't make the right rotations defensively is wild to see in person, right? And I don't blame LeBron for it. They're sticking him out there as a center and, you know, Westbrook's breaking down all over the place. So I, It's just been a nightmare.

They have to trade them. I would have tried to trade them at the deadline if I could. And I would have considered, you know, giving up the pick and whatever else just to move forward. I understand why they didn't. But this summer, they have to work out a resolution. They cannot bring this guy back next year. I'm glad you brought up LeBron because, look, let's face it, AD is the second best player on the team.

But AD is nobody's version of a leader, right? I don't think AD couldn't lead a whore to bet. Let's put it like that, right? He's not a leader. That's just not what he does. He shows up. He hoops. He plays hard most of the time.

But he's not some galvanizing figure. He's not going to spearhead any culture in any organization that he's at, which is why LeBron's kind of the perfect teammate for him. And so I bring up LeBron because, you know, you're around the team a decent amount, even with the limited access, thanks for nothing, Adam Silver, that guys are getting these days. You're around the team a lot. What's your sense of LeBron's sort of? feelings around what's happening because he seemed pretty optimistic about it coming into the season.

And he was like, yeah, we're going to make this thing work. And Russ is All the Famer and blah, blah, blah, blah. But you can tell some of the confidence has just been just sucked out of him. Well, I mean, last summer he tweeted haters keep the same energy right. The haters kept the energy was. The haters had no problem with the energy and the stamina. They've been there every single night and they've been proven right. and I think he's actually kind of shrinked away from some of it, right?

I don't, I think it was a little bit of hubris on LeBron's part, believing he could make it work with anyone like you've described because he's had so many different success stories. And, you know, I think he put in a good faith effort and it just really never came together. It's kind of oil and water. When I look back at this last couple weeks, so here's what I think is so fascinating about the dynamic between Russ and LeBron. So Westbrook comes out and makes this entire stand about don't call me West Brick. it's disrespectful to my family and everything else. How many people with the Lakers or around the Lakers really came loudly to Westbrook's defense? I saw one tweet for Magic Johnson.

And this guy will tweet about like, I have a speech at like, you know, Epson, you know, printer festival and like he'll do about anything, right? So I don't think getting one tweet for Magic is, you know, really a sign of major support. And then you look at how LeBron has handled things since, you know, that statement. it's like 250 balls. He's going out there and just basically doing it all by himself. And then in the media, what did he say? He said, look, the Lakers fans have the right to be as upset as they want to be, right?

We've got to give them a reason to watch basketball. That's like the exact opposite of what I think Westbrook was probably expecting when he took this stand, right? Like, don't you think when he's coming out there and saying, oh, it's all about my family, he thinks everyone's going to kind of rally and support? And I just think, you know, the way he handled that whole thing, it was one of the worst decisions in a season of. terrible decisions because how can you guarantee everyone calls you Westbrook for the rest of your life? Tell them that it really bothers you, right? Like just let everyone know, this really, really

upsets me. And that's everyone's going to call you that forever now, you know, it's just going to ramp up. And, you know, look, I feel bad. And there's no reason to feel bad for us. He's making 40-something million dollars this year. He's going to make another 50 next year. He's very handsomely paid to be mediocre. And there's nothing, we don't need to cry for these guys. But by all accounts, he's a quality dude. And like people like outside of the, you know, the scowling and the ridiculousness on the court, off the court he's known as a really affable and great dude. So I do feel bad that it's gone so horribly for him.

But all this is of his own doing. Like there's been no adjustment. There's been no just self-awareness or recognition that things have to change in order for success to be maintained over there. And it's just been so fucking terrible to watch. Well, imagine if he had come out instead of done this whole Westbrook thing, if he had come out and done exactly what your advising was, if he had said, hey, look, man, like, I'm not having a good year. The fit hasn't been right. I'm not shooting the ball well. It's all on my shoulders. I'm not the same guy I was two years ago. I'm trying to make it work. Like if he had kind of opened himself up and that way made himself vulnerable and sort of appeal to people like, hey, man, look, I know I'm not playing well this year. Please stop booing me. I think people might have stopped booing. him, right? But when you're just like, don't call me this, you know, it's like off limits to have nicknames, that's like one of the most central aspects of sports commentary and sports fandom is having nicknames for your favorite players and your least favorite players. Like, how did he

expect that really to go? Like, Adam Silver was going to ban the name Westbrook for the next three years? I mean, what did he think was going to come from? And so I don't know. I understand what you're saying, especially on the things like, you know, death threats or comments about his family or any of that stuff. Like, that's all out of bounds. Everybody knows that. But he He's got to be a little bit more nuanced in his understanding of how this relationship works. I don't think he understands exactly how bad his season has gone from an outside perspective at all. Yeah. And so, you know, Ben's here in Los Angeles with us.

The Lakers season has been a disaster. Of course, the Clippers, two superstars are riddled with injuries. It was only two short years ago, Ben, when it felt like the basketball universe revolved around Los Angeles between those two teams. and now they're just so irrelevant in afterthoughts. It's just crazy how that goes. You're not excited for like a 9-10 playing round mix or 8-9 playing game between Clippers and Lakers? What if everybody comes back healthy for one night?

Wouldn't that be amazing? Yo, the Luke Canard stands have been in my mentions lately, Ben, because I pointed out that he was getting coaches, D&Ps in the playoffs last year. So somehow that makes me some huge shithead. I'm like, yo, fan, his own coach didn't play him. That's not me. Well, I've been hearing the same thing from Reggie Jackson fans because I used to call him Route Canal Reggie in Detroit because I thought it was more painful to watch him run the offense

than go to a dental appointment. He's having a great comeback year. Like, there are good stories with the Clippers, but the problem is like the cute story, eight seed clippers is not what Steve Balmer put out, you know, however many hundreds of millions of dollars for, right? He wanted a championship contender. Imagine if that team was healthy this year, though. I think they'd be the two seed right now.

Probably maybe even fighting with three. Phoenix and then it would be this huge conversation of like, well, who matches up better with whom, right? Like you have all that winged talent for the Clippers. That's a lot of problems they pose for Phoenix. Maybe they're going to win the Western Conference this year. But saying like if the Clippers are healthy is like saying if Pigs fly, you know? I mean, like Paul George, he gave us one great month.

It's been a long time since we've seen him. Kauai Leonard, I almost don't even remember what he looks like because, I mean, this guy hasn't played for, you know, very much over these last couple of years. So hopefully they can get it back together next year and make the run that Balmer was a expecting to make. But, you know, I do worry a little bit, like when those contracts start ballooning a little bit more and more and they're having trouble adding players around the edges, you know, what's the end game for the clippers? I worry about that too. It's a shame they shit the bed in the bubble and we didn't get that Lakers series.

Moving on, I want to end the show on the Eastern Conference. I want to talk about Joe L. Embed who basically on a permanent basis has been neck and neck with Yokic, with Janice, as the best player in the NBA this season. Of course, they make a blockbuster trade. They got pantsed by Brooklyn in their home stadium the other night. I went on Bill's podcast and talked about that. I didn't want to dance on the graves. It's just one game.

But look, man, there was a lot of freaking belly aching and backpacking back patting. from Sixers fans of, you know, victory labs, we got James, we're going to the championship, all of that. What have you seen so far from MB, because he's still the most crucial player on the team, despite James Arden being MVP candidate, MVP winner, Hall of Fame, all of that? What have you seen so far since Hardin has come on board? Well, I think you nailed it on the head. I mean, he's been one of the best players in the league this year, right? I think he's been re-energized, reinvigorated by Hardin's arrival.

His life has gotten a lot easier since Hardin showed up. but here's my question to you. After that Brooklyn game, why does James Harden get all of the criticism, but Joel Embed doesn't get hardly any fraction of the criticism, right? Like, I look at Hardin, obviously, three for 17. That's a terrible game. Like, that's an F game.

He did not show up. It's his former team. Katie took it personal. Katie punked them, and it was over pretty quick, right? But the track record that I've seen from Joel Embed in some different moments, whether it was certain times of that, you know, Toronto Raptor series, was in the bubble without Simmons and other points.

He doesn't necessarily always rise to the moment either. Game seven against Atlanta, another great example where there's turnovers, there's some low-focused plays on his behalf. He doesn't necessarily always have that huge defensive impact when the going gets tough. And I thought he didn't show up at all against Brooklyn. And I look at the, you know, he's not ready to go.

As you mentioned, he's their best player. So it's his team, right? were the Sixers ready to go. If they're not ready to go, you blame that on Embed. You don't blame that on Hardin, right? And then how do you adjust when it's clear Hardin's not playing well? As the best player, you need to have some sort of a backup plan involved. And I just thought, you know, basically by the second half of that game, Mbite had quit.

He's throwing the ball all over the floor. He's not really working that hard. And he got locked up by Andre Drummond. How is that happening? Like, come on, man. That's not supposed to happen in a big game, right? Yeah. So I just think he's got this amazing dynamic in Philly.

where everybody gets in line like it's a Destiny's Child video, their information, man, to protect Embed at all costs from any type of criticism. And it's been this smooth transition from Ben Simmons' escapego to James Hardin the scapegoat. And, you know, Tobias Harris probably, you know, he's so happy because he's off the hook now. He doesn't have to be the scapegoat now that James Hart is there. But when do we start saying, hey, come on, Joel, it's time to show up in some of these big games and play better? You know, Ben, you know what? that's interesting because over the years, I've had a lot of spicy talk for Ben Simmons,

because I've been off for that for like three years now. Yeah, well, understandably. A lot of spicy talk for Tobias Harris. A lot of spicy talk for Brett Brown. You're right. Like, it's been everybody else's fault all along the way. And Joelle has definitely escaped so much criticism in the past. I like that you coming on weekends with Was to give the spiciest Joelle takes that I've ever

heard. I'm into this, Ben. Well, here's the thing. He's obviously so much cooler than every other person you just named. So it's completely natural that you're going to, like if you're picking sides, who you're going to defend? Joel or Brett Brown? Joel or Tobias. Joel or Ben Simmons. It's obvious, right?

But I just think that they've been a situation, like they've been building and spending money around him for multiple years now, right? Like, there's been some moments where he had pivotal opportunities to take the next step in his career. I look at Game 7 against Atlanta as a perfect example of that. Everybody focuses on Ben Simmons missing the

dunk or not taking the dunk, right? How many turnovers that Embed have in that fourth quarter? How many points is he scoring down the stretch? Why is he fatigued? Why is he not playing 45 minutes in that game? Is his body right in those particular situations? I'm not saying he's a bum by any stretch. I mean, don't get a twisted. He's obviously a very, very talented player. But I do think even a guy like Janus, when they were going through their stuff before they won the title, took a lot more heat than even a guy like MB does. That's fair. And if he's only ducking this stuff because he's funny on Twitter

and like he's a good guy, that's not a good enough reason. You know what I mean? He has to show up and be the best player on the court. And if you're picking up sides from that Net Sixers game, man, it's KD1, and you're going a long way before you get to MBD at 2. Yeah. I love it.

Ben Colliver on weekends with Waz holding the superstars accountable. You're not going to get this shit nowhere else, people. Lastly, man, I'm always excited to talk to you about Janus because the truth of the matter is you were the first Janus stand in my life. And you have been waving the Janus flag for so long and so proudly, even after, you know, the botched series against Toronto. The debacle that was the Miami Heat series and the bubble, you held steadfast. You were rewarded for your loyalty last year with the championship. And not only did the Bucks win the championship, Janice was fucking sublime.

He was incredible. What are you seeing from Yonis this year? Do you think the Bucs are going back to the finals? Well, I mean, Janus has had a spectacular season. I do think what gets lost with him is that, you know, Coach Bud sort of treats Yonis' on-court time, like one of those game shows where they put people inside the glass box and they drop the money, and it's like you have 30 seconds to get as much money as you can get.

It's like, Yonis, you get 32 minutes a night. Go out there and put up whatever crazy stats you can in 32, and then we're taking you back out. And so I think what people forget, you know, when they look at Yonis, and they've been dropping a lot of games this year. I mean, you know, in some cases, like kind of bad losses that they wouldn't typically do. And I think the number one factor to keep in mind is he's going to be playing a lot more in the playoffs. But I finally figured that out last year of like, don't, you know, take off the restrict the plates.

Don't take out the beast. Who does everything for your team for no reason? Yeah, he figured that out. Yeah, it took a while. It took a couple extra years, but he did figure it out, right? So they're going to have a natural jump that I think some of these other stars who are playing, you know, big minutes in the playoffs maybe aren't going to make, right? But what's also funny to me about the evolution here, how many years did we all spend as,

you know, basketball Twitter dork saying, you got to get Janus and four shooters, you got to get Janus and small ball lineups? We got to see what this looks like, you know. And that has played out all well and good. I mean, he's basically a defensive player of the year candidate this year. I have him number two on my MVP ballot behind Yokic right now. He's been amazing, right? But the guy they miss this year is Brooke Lopez.

They miss going big. And it's like the opposite of what we were all expecting for years and years. And so when you look at their team defense going from ultra elite down to just kind of average, it's because they don't have that big guy in there who, you know, you can just line up, you know, huge front line, control the boards, you know, every defensive possessions, one shot and done. And so I do worry just a little bit about, okay, what's their playoff defense going to look like without him? Because Lopez had a bunch of big moments last year. When he's there, it puts Portis into a more effective role as well.

So I expect, you know, Janus, you know, you're going to have to rip the title out of his hands, right? I mean, he's not going to go down easily. But if they don't have Lopez, I think they're a little bit of a shakier ship than they were last year. Yeah, you know what? I didn't even actually put that together when you think about the deficiencies that they've had on. because you said two important things. Like, Janus is only playing 32 minutes, and one of the best defensive bigs in the league

isn't playing for you. So, like, yeah, there's a lot of available minutes for the bucks to get completely sliced and diced. I was going to say, on that point, real quick, I mean, look what happens when LeBron has to play the five full-time, right? The defense is just one of the worst than the league. Look what happens when even KD has to play five, right? The Nets, their defense comes back to Earth.

So the fact that Milwaukee's even been able to do that, be average on defense without their starting center and asking Janus to play that role. It's just a testament to how good he is defensively. But also, it's not championship worthy. They have to be better on defense if they're going to win a title this year. So I didn't mean to cut you off. No, it's all good. I was just going to say I'm really looking forward to watching the stretch running this MVP thing.

I'm super locked into what's happening in Philly. Who's your pick? I think the bucks are going to go to the championship. I really do. I think they're going to. I meant for MVP, though. For MVP is Yokic. Again, that team is so bad, but for the grace of Nicola Yokic, man.

Like, they have no business being competent, but for the fact that that guy is so great. He's so insanely good, so unselfish. He puts so much just confidence in the dudes around him who are just dudes. Like, Moni Morris should not be hooping like he's Rod Strickland out here. It's just that Yolki. puts that confidence in his dudes, and that's what I love about him the most. He empowers the dudes around him. And obviously he's got the raw stats to go with that.

But like when you see what he does to the dudes around him, have no business being competent, NBA type of starters, heavy minute getters, and they're, you know, they just keep on chugging. He's my MVP. I'm with you. I think the most important question to ask about any player when you're evaluating them is does he make his teammates better? And I don't think anybody in the NBA right now, including LeBron, including Chris Paul.

And Chris Paul has been way high on that list for 15 years, right? I still think Yokic is number one on that with a bullet. And I'm right there with you, man. He's going to get a lot of these guys paid too, right? I mean, that's the other thing about it is like you just got to, you know, go to Denver, put in your two years sort of like a study abroad program for some of these guys, right? Just put in your two years, you know, sit in his, in his halo and then cash out a big check like Jeremy Graham. Man, or like Tristan Thompson back in Cleveland days, Lord have mercy.

Hey, Ben Goliver, National Writer for the Washington Post, author. The man has a book, too. Go pick up his book. What's the name of the book again, Ben? Bubble ball. Pick up his book. Bubble ball. He was in the bubble, entrenched with everybody.

Obviously, one of the best reporters we got there. Obviously, one of the best minds in the game on the media side. Ben, thank you for coming on. so they tell the people where they can find you. At Ben Golfer on Twitter and check out my podcast, greatest of all talk.com. I do that with Andrew Sharp. You'll probably remember him from the old days as well.

OG basketball guy. We have a good time twice a week. All right. We'll see you guys next week. Peace.