The Ringer NBA Show - Will the Lakers Make a Panic Trade? Plus, Second-Guessing the Sabonis and McCollum Deals. | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 9, 2022

Verrier, Rob, and Wos debate what can (and should) be done to solve the Lakers' problems at the deadline (1:40), before breaking down the surprising trades for Domantas Sabonis and CJ McCollum and making final predictions (18:00). Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, Wosny Lambre Producer: Devon Manze Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Derek Thompson, the host of the podcast, Plain English. We tackle technology, politics, culture, history, everything that's happening in the world, and why it matters. New episodes of Plain English drop every Tuesday and Friday on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to group chat. I am Justin Barrier joining me, Big Wise, Rob Mahoney. Rob, did you know who was Waz's birthday the other day? I may have heard something about that, yes. because it's funny. I don't remember an invitation

to any sort of shindig this over the weekend. You would think your pod brother in arms would at least get the invite. It's a open invitation, Justin. It's come one, come all. It reminds me of my favorite part of Waz joining the ringer,

which was as soon as I heard he was about to join him like, oh my God, this is incredible. I text him. And then I scroll up to find like the most recent text before that was four years ago. And it was Wai,

being like, hey, my birthday, come to this spot, yada, I'll let you know when the time comes. Four years later. Hey, Wads, glad you. Oh, my God. Stop it. Stop it. But happy birthday, Waz. Thank you, my boys. Appreciate you guys. All right. And we're going to celebrate here on this deadline eve by going through some of the biggest trades that have already happened and potentially some that could happen between now and tomorrow's noon Pacific deadline.

Let's start first with the biggest news in the NBA now, the one that's burbling across the league, which is the Lakers might be lingering over that panic button. I guess they've been there for a while, but at the very least, I think LeBron has come to terms with how close they are to pushing that button. You have reports from David McMinn and ESPN and the athletic, but that basically they're thinking about actually doing something about the Russell Westbrook problem after last night's loss of the books. Was, do you think something actually happens? Do we get another LeBron settling all family business trade deadline here?

No, they can't because they've, all of their bullets have been fired already, right? The idea that the assets, quote unquote, that are left for Kendrick Nunn, who hasn't played a game this season? And Taylor Horton Tucker, who has underperformed his contract that he got in the off-season. Those are the two guys that they have as bait to bring in some actual contributing players. I don't see how this gets fixed this season. Maybe in the offseason, because I guess once the off season comes, Russ is an expiring deal, so it feels less onerous to take him on. And they can figure out some other things, right?

But until the off season, this thing is locked in and set in stone. It feels like we are scant hours away from the Lakers' kind of shrugging and throwing up their hands and trading for Terrence Ross and saying, okay, we'll deal with the Russ thing when we can deal with it because I don't see it right now. I don't see we can talk about the John Wall stuff. We can talk about every hairbrained possibility we can come up with. I don't see anybody trading for this version of Russell Westbrook right now. Well, we have talked about the wall scenario, wall for Westbrook and maybe a pick involved in there.

Yeah. After the most recent Russ catastrophe, are you guys at the point where you're ready to, to, well, Welcome John Wall to Los Angeles. Was? Wolf. No. I mean, the John Wall thing, I guess it sounds like, all right, let's just try some other random thing that has, there's no actual proof that this could work. Because, again, another guy who has not played in over a year damn there at this point. I don't see why John Wall is materially better than Russell Westbrook.

But, you know, the quotes coming out of last night's game were so freaking dire. And just everybody acknowledging that this thing has been a complete and unmitigated disaster. Four team before LeBron got hurt when he hurt his ankle last year, they were basically right there neck and neck for the number two spot. They were beating Phoenix in that series two to one before AD went down. the eventual Western Conference Championship and the number one seat in the West this year. Just last year, they were that freaking close

to now they're just getting smoked every single night that they play a real team. Well, as you mentioned the quotes, I think we need to refer to them explicitly. Yes, we do, we do. You know, Bill Orham had this from the Athletic from LeBron's press conference where LeBron said,

do I think we can reach the level where Milwaukee is right now? No. Is that what you wanted to hear? No. Well, I will also say that he was teed up with the question, do you think you could reach Milwaukee's level? But he also didn't have to say that.

But they asked him specifically, like, reference to the game that just happened. And he's like, but shit, I could have told you that before the game. That's pretty bad. That's what I wonder, though, if they're in such a dire straight right now that they might hit the eject button on Rust, no matter what. Just to get a new face in there,

even if it is, even if he hasn't played this entire season, that's better than whatever they've gotten from Russell Westbrook thus far. I just don't even think that would be fair to John Wall

to ask a guy who hasn't played this season to come save you when he's really not that different a player from Russell Westbro in terms of what his skill set is. Like his passes are a little cleaner, a little different bursts.

You know, maybe you don't give him as many wide open threes or in the case of last night's game, wide open six and eight footers as the bucks were giving Russell Westbrook. Maybe it's a little different, but it's a lot to ask of a guy to go from zero to trying to contend, especially a steep ramp up for a player with a pretty extensive injury history. I'm not even sure it's responsible to ask John Wall to be that guy for you. Haven't said that. The bar is very, very low. And John Wall is

just a healthy body. Like, I wonder if he is just fetid like a king in Los Angeles. And, and, you know, the thing that struck me watching some of last night's game, because I just, like, after the first quarter, I'm just like, this is just a bludgeoning. Like, they're just getting destroyed right now. And watching Russ is like, I was at that game when they first executed the Rockets deal to turn them into microball.

I was at that game at Staples against the Lakers. And the Lakers kind of didn't understand what to do against the team. And the Rockets ended up winning that. game. And Russ was actually pretty damn good in that game. And people like AD on switches were having trouble staying in front of them. Some of the Lakers' best defenders were having trouble dealing with Russ in the five out, completely spread out offense. Like he looked like a good player in that game. That dude no longer exists, period. There's basically not a single person

in the league who Russell Westbrook can beat off the dribble anymore. And because, because he knows this, he plays so tentatively. Like, back in the days, he could make, like, he had pick and roll chemistry with, you know, Stephen Adams, who, again, is a lot less dynamic to pick and roll partner than LeBron or AD is. He was able to have chemistry because he could, you know, puncture defenses. He could create cracks and openings against most set NBA defenses, right? If not the most elite ones, which, you know, his playoff woes showed that he wasn't that type of dude. But again, like, he could do that.

He could puncture defenses now. I watch him dribble, dribble, dribble against big men. Can't do anything without him. And he's doing shovel passes behind him to guys. Just like hot potato. This is, like, he's just not a useful player in any way, shape, or form. And so, can John Wall be better than not at all useful? I think so.

Yeah, it's really all he needs to do. And, like, no, we talked about the limited assets that the Lakers have. I do think they actually have one asset that might actually be one of the best on the entire market, which is their 2027 unprotected first round pick, which like on the one hand, maybe GMs will say, ah, I'm not going to be around that long. I'm never going to be able to read the benefits. On the other hand, the value of that could be traded again for something even more substantial down the road, especially if things keep going further downhill and maybe LeBron leaves to go play for the Minnesota Timberwolf so he could team up with Bronny James and whatever happens down the road.

So I do wonder if that could actually get them something. So maybe it's not John Wall for Russell Westbrook if it means that pick. I wouldn't do that. But what if it was, for instance, Wall plus Eric Gordon for Russ, the contracts needed to get to the number you would have to. It would probably be like Horton Tucker. It would have to be none and maybe something else plus the pick. If it's Gordon with Wall, Rob, do you like that a little bit better? I mean, look, I wish I could help you guys vet fake Lakers trades, but they're not letting me come into the game.

just going to put my hands tenderly on your shoulders and say, be good, do well. I wish you all the best as you try to trade Russell Westbrook away from the Lakers. I just don't see it. And part of the problem for me, if you're the Lakers, you are in a position now. Everyone is upset. Everyone is, you know, frustrated with the situation. You have to be very careful about trading away future unprotected first round picks. Because if this thing goes sour, if LeBron or Anthony Davis decides, you know what, it might just be easy.

to contend somewhere else. This could get ugly very quickly, and you don't want to be left without your own pick in the case that you bottom out swiftly and suddenly, and in the Lakers case, very violently, I'm sure. Are we sure that Polinka's going to be around in order to reap the benefits of that 2027 pick? I don't think he's going to last more than a couple of months

if this keeps going the way it is. Look, and the Rob Polinka thing, obviously, there's a way to satisfy LeBron and AD while also getting in the big picture while also getting some of the stuff on the margins

right? It's just that he never does get the stuff on the margins right and so it's hard for me to blame him though when LeBron and AD allegedly vetted this deal by talking to Westbrook at their

mansion and it was like oh yeah yeah no we talked to him it's going to be great so you get the okay from your most important people in the organization and you deliver for them how can you really be mad at Rob Palenca, right?

I think LeBron and AD got to look themselves in the mirror and be like maybe we don't know what the fuck we're doing when it comes to player evaluation and we need to chill the hell out on the other hand it's not like Palinca's been

this, you know, this savant since he's been there. Yeah, it's been a bad run for the player empowerment era because over the past couple weeks, it's Russell Westbrook going down in flames and James Harden wanting out after, what, less than a season in Brooklyn and wanting to go and play for the Philadelphia 76ers rather than KD, he's former friend on Oklahoma City Thunder. I don't know. Maybe at a certain point,

you should leave the GMing to the GMs. There's probably a reason they have those jobs. Well, another guy, too, who decided all things considered, maybe I don't want to play with Russell Westbrook and James Harden. And there's now a laundry list of those stars, because everyone wants to play with Westbrook until you play with Westbrook until you find out what that really means, especially if you have a team that's constructed the way this Lakers team is. And I think we can blame LeBron and AD for wanting Russ there in the first place, for having those meetings, for talking themselves into it. I think you have to hold the front office accountable, though, for the moves around the edges, for all that supplementary stuff that we've been talking about.

Those moves, they just haven't nailed enough of at nearly the level they would need to offset this giant elephant in the room. Buddy healed for the pick in contracts? Ugh. Ugh. Well, I'll say this. The Capkeeks are talking about Buddy Healed is negative value considering his contract. I don't necessarily believe that, considering he's been dogging it on defense for two years,

just like wanting to get out and talking to everybody after the game whispering in their ear, like, come and get me. But I do think that is what they need, no? Well, Zach Lowe reported shortly before we jumped on here that the Pacers are not planning to move him before the deadline. We'll see if that holds up. I'm sure, you know, if a 20-27 Lakers first comes in on the market, maybe they reconsider that pretty quickly. But because of the money, it's not even enough just to do Tht. It would have to be the Tht plus none, plus whatever role players you can fit in there, plus as much cash as you could

conceivably give the Pacers in that transaction to make it work. And even then, you're getting a version of Buddy Heald that's not just negative value because of his contract, as you were alluding to some of the commentary around him. The guy just has not been very good for the Kings this season, has not really been even valuable in the ways you would want him to be valuable. And so if he's that guy, the kind of unfocused, just not very plugged in, as you said, not only defensively,

but just really in the ways he would need to be offensively, too. If he's still that player, I don't know that you're really getting anything that's going to move the needle for you, especially to the point of giving up a pick that could be potentially that valuable. Yeah. Was, what do you think about Buddy Healed on the Lakers? Do you think he would solve enough of their issues?

No, he doesn't. Look, the issue with the Lakers is that, you know, it's like, look, we're not trying to wear LeBron out during the regular season. Let's get an innings eater, possessions eater type of guy in Westbrook. Turns out he's not good at that anymore, specifically with the pieces around him. So now you get buddy healed and the idea is like, all right, LeBron is basically our de facto point guard playmaker, our best 101 score, our. our center and our earth.

And sure, I guess if everybody's cool with that being the case, and basically this turns into Cleveland all over again, where you cobbled together a basically barely decent enough defense, and LeBron's just so good at initiating offense for you that you're good enough, think cool. But, like, the idea has been for a while that, like, LeBron doesn't want to do that anymore. So I don't know.

Maybe they admit defeat and be like, LeBron, look, you're the greatest player of all time. This is what we need you to do. Get over it. I have a question, too. Is there any evidence to suggest that Buddy Heald is better than Malik Munk right now? No. Right now, not so much, though, again, I do think Buddy has been coasting for a very long time.

Totally no argument there. And I guess the case for trading for Buddy. Well, I'll just say this quickly. I think having Monk and Buddy is much different than. having one or the other. And maybe that's it. You know, if you can find a way to survive defensively with the perimeter that's Russell Westbrook, Buddy healed Malik Monk, and then Ad and LeBron trying to clean up everything else. God bless you. God bless. Keep Bench and Russ. Like, it's Monk, it's buddy, it's LeBron, AD, and it's Mela. And you just go,

is that any better? Is that any better? Three shooters plus pick and roll LeBron AD is like the success for every championship of the past 10 years. That's an amazing offense, 100%. But again, it's predicated on LeBron, basically being at his best all the time on that end. And playing. He's their second best defender. Okay, so you're being relied upon to be the second best defender on your team.

Second most important, we're talking about help side at the rim. We're talking about switching and guarding the league's best defensive players. We're talking to sometimes switching on big brutes and holding up in the post and you being the guy that's counted upon to make that happen. And then again, initiating every single damn near offensive possession. And then when those break down being the one-on-one killer at 50 years old, come on, man. Come on, man.

The Lakers are just trying to make the play in right now. I'm just trying to get to the playoff. That would be a lot to ask of a dude who was 27. Okay, like that would be a lot to ask our best players in the league in their prime, that's a lot to ask them to do that much work on defense and be that much of the fulcrum on offense.

Good luck getting that out of the brawn, man. And then doing it again in the playoffs. What I'm hearing is, do we think the Lakers can reach the level where the bucks are right now is a resounding, um, no. Well, Vogue Lovie. pregame was like, I love playing teams like defending chance. It gives us the chance to take

our temperature and see what we measure up against da da da da da. Da. Da post game they asked him and it was like, so you mentioned pregame about the tension. He laughed. Let's just get Jordan Clarkson back. You know, let's get Rodney Hood. I saw him on a bench the other day. Let's get Larry Nance over from the Pelicans. And we'll just roll back that Cleveland Cavaliers last run there. Actually, if they had all three of those players, I would love this team even more. like that those guys are on ID and LeBron is actually very good.

But let's flip to those trades that happened yesterday. Let's start in Sacramento though, because I think this one's a little bit more interesting. So basically, the Kings gets a bonus

and two other wing players and a second round pick. The Pacers get Tyre's Hallibur and our friend Buddy healed and Tristan Thompson. Rob, you wrote about this yesterday for the site.

What's kind of the headline for you on this one? I think the main takeaway is DeMana Subonis is a good player and my objection to trading someone as promising as Tyrese Halliburton for him is less about the talent swap or the potential swap of Halliburton for Sabonis

than it is why are you trading for Sabonis if you're this Sacramento Kings team? They traded for a guy who just doesn't literally no member of their core fits with him. So what are we doing? I realize that they're trying

they want to be better immediately they want more talented players. I've heard this described as a win now move, which is kind of a crazy thing when Subonis is 25 years old, but that's where we are. And it feels to me more like a win later move because you're going to have to tear this thing down to the studs to make room around him with the kinds of players who make sense with Sabonis. I think that it sets up the next logical domino now or in the offseason has to be trading Deerrin Fox. I just, I don't really see the long-term fit between those two guys. So you're telling me Sabonis doesn't fit with Rashon Holmes and the rest of that big man rotation that they got over there

That doesn't make any sense You're telling me You know Sabonis operating at the elbows And basically being the hub of your offense Doesn't fit with what Deerrin Fox wants to do Which is basically be on the ball Run, pick and roll on the all game Is that what you're trying to tell me, Rob?

Because I can't believe that Sabonis, he's a two-time All-Star You're adding a two-time All-Star 25-year-old to this group. Obviously, you're going to make the 10-seed. Duh. It's just, you know, look, on the one hand, because I've been somebody in the past who's like, look, I like when teams try to win, right? So it's nice that this team is respecting Adam Silver's experiment with this playing game stuff.

And they'd be like, we're going to battle for that 10th seed and that playing spot. So I get it. On the other hand, how could have a lot? Harry Barnes be part of some of your selling off of assets, but also you're trying to win now. It just, they don't know if they're coming or going over there in Sacramento. And this deal is just more of the same.

And then, you know, that goes beyond, like, what I think of Sabonis as a player. Again, he's a nice player. I don't know what having him does for your team. Like, is this core even a top nine Western Conference team now? I just don't get it. A few weeks ago, we ranked Sacramento as one of the worst team situations in the NBA.

Yes. Has anything changed, Justin? Do you see, look at them any differently at all with Sabonis versus with Halliburred? Guys, I regret to inform you, but I'm going to zag here. Oh, no. Oh, God, Jesus Christ.

I've been sitting on this one. I've been reading all the takes and I've really been marinating on this. I agree with what you guys are saying. I think they need to figure out the next couple moves here. And if they don't trade Harrison Barnes before Thursday, then I'm going to

look at this a lot differently. But I look at this and I say, why can't a Fox sub bonus core as your two pillars work? And I think it comes down to people are way too far down on Deer and Fox after this downseason that he's had and probably a little bit too high

on Tyre's Halliburton. Like, I really like Halliburton. It just seems like people talk about him as if he's Chris Paul at this point, as if he's going to be first team all-MBA. Like, I think he's more of a Andre Aguadala, if Iguado's value is more on offense. He's like a Lanzo ball connector who will do everything you want. And that's a very, very valuable player who I would want on my championship team, right? Yeah.

But I don't think he's going to be your one or two. I think he's more of like a three. I think he's a component to that. He's more Lanzo than Lamello. And so I asked myself, let's take the contracts out of this, because this is wild that the King's traded for a guy with two years left on his deal that makes so much more than Halliburn, right? But like just players, like one to one, is Sabone is better than Halliburton? Yes. Maybe.

Absolutely. So then I think that's something. It's a talent upgrade. And, you know, the Halliburton thing, when you go and look at his numbers, like, obviously, I think a lot of the Halliburton stuff is that like, the analytics people loved him pre-draft and he's kind of proven to be at a higher value than what he was taken, where he was taken at at 12 post-draft.

And so the analytics people love it and they're like, look at this shit. We knew what the fuck we was talking about with Tyrese Halliburton, which I get. But if his value is supposed to be on offense as a guard, why is his usage only 18%? You know, like, how can he be that valuable

if he's never really taking that many shots and he's never really dominating the ball that much. You know, like, I don't understand how he can be this huge value if he's never doing this stuff that makes those kinds of players valuable, right? And so whatever, I think Halliburton's a nice player. I think Indiana made out great in this trade. At the same time, I just don't see how the kings are positioned to be even a lower level.

playoff team with just doing this deal. I don't see it. Well, I want to thread the needle here because I think, Justin, you're spot on as far as the public opinion and the approval rate for Halliburton is a little out of whack. It's just a little high right now because I think he's one of these guys who appeals to a lot of different types of fans and analysts. Like, he could appeal to a lot of different teams for that matter, which is part of why he's valuable. It's easy to talk yourself into him. But as for the usage question that you bring up, Waz, I think the answer is he plays for, at least has played for, a pretty dysfunctional team

alongside another lead guard with a lot of different guys who are chugging for shots. Like, Buddy Healed, even Harrison Barnes at this stage of his career is a catch and shoot, is a I'm going to get points up kind of player. Your usage is not going to be sky high in that context. I think where the optimism comes for Halliburton long term, I think he can be probably more of a second best player

on a really good team versus a third, as you were laying out, Justin, is this time that he spent limited as it is without Fox in the lineup. Running the show, lead guard stuff, racking up assists, great pick and roll chemistry, great ability to read and manage the floor. I think that's what gives you the optimism

that he could be more than just a connector. Yeah, and I don't know if the Pacers in the broad sense aren't doing anything dissimilar from the Kings. It seems like they're resetting their entire team around Halliburton and Turner, especially when you hear reports that like maybe they keep healed, but that doesn't seem like it works, especially if they don't

get another three or four in there to actually play the forward positions, like sticking heel that the three did not work in Sacramento. I don't think it's going to work in Indiana again. And it sounds like, I mean, the scuttle butt recently is that maybe Malcolm Brognan could be the next guy out of Indiana. I don't know why they would do that. I actually like Halliburton and Brogden. They can actually complement each other in a lot of ways. But like they are rebuilding around a guard and a big. I guess the main difference is that, and right, Rob, you alluded to this in your article. Like, the Pacers just seem more in touch with reality.

And while, like, the Kings are the most likely canon in the entire NBA to just think wildly that they can make a run for a playoffs. Like, the Pacers are historically an organization that will always aspire toward them, not aspire toward the middle, but end up in the middle because they don't want to completely bottom out. I think it's like, if there's any major takeaway from this, you have to give the Pacers credit for Trade and Whale Lavert, Anna Sabonis, and a bonus. in order to look at the bigger picture and think,

like, we actually might be better next year and the year after if we just take the younger guy in this move. Yeah, make the swing for Halliburton. Get your top five or six pick, and I think that's the crucial element on both sides of the steel, is what these two teams do with their 2022 pick is going to be instrumental to the future of their franchise. They're both at, like, really crucial pivot points

where they need to nail what they choose. The Kings, they are going to need spacing a guy who can really shoot in the worst way, whether they draft him, whether they get him in free agency, whether they trade someone like Fox for him, they need someone who can shoot. A guy like Buddy Hill? Well, a guy who wants to play for them

and can also shoot. Okay, got you, got you. Yeah, I got to say, like the Fox Mitchell backcourt doesn't inspire much more confidence than the Halliburton Fox backcourt. Mitchell was already pretty old when he got to Sacramento,

but I think, you know, the last few games, he's showing signs, as my man, Marv Albert would say, And, you know, I think he's one of those defensive-minded kind of guys, but he's shown some on-ball juice lately. And the thought might be like, yo, both of those guys can and will show improvement as shooters, meaning him and Fox.

So I get the idea if you're optimistic. And we know teams always fall in love with the guys that they themselves drafted. Right. So I could see them being very optimistic about his potential to improve upon what's already there. So I, you know, I guess I kind of get that. I definitely get the Mitchell part of it, especially over the last few weeks. He's been really impressive, just not

necessarily impressive in ways that make you think, oh, I want to pair this guy with a hub, like elbow, handoff kind of big man alongside another point guard who also doesn't shoot that well. That's where I get hung up. And that's where I think, when you're looking in the big picture what these teams did, the

Pacer's ability to kind of double-dip getting Halliburton and a top potential top-five out of this season versus the Kings getting Subonis and a top five pick which is going to have to reset their whole team in a lot of ways whether they trade Barnes or not. And frankly

Harrison Barnes is the guy who fits best with the sub bonus thing messes up their chances of getting a better pick but it's like again what do they want? Do they want a better pick or do they want this playing game? I mean they want to be the Pacers. They want to be the Pacers is what they want.

That's true. The irony. Yeah, I don't know. I definitely think that the odds favor the pacer for winning this deal, but I think there is a chance if the kings follow this up correctly, which it's going to take a lot here. I don't think it's as bad as I think

a lot of the commentary actually believes. It's not a disaster. It's just the kind of move that is going to require lots of other stuff to follow it to make it and make sense. And so that's not what you want to hear if you're the kings, but they're also, given their position,

there was not a one move, instant fix kind of solution here. This was going to be a long process to untangle this stuff. I'm sure if you were a Kings fan, we're hoping Halliburton was going to be a part of that. Well, speaking of teams looking for one move to fix everything, let's talk about the New Orleans Pelicans,

who made the other big deal of yesterday, getting C.J. McCollum, Larry Nance, Tony Snell, from the Portland Trailblazers in four, Josh Hart, Nikiel Alexander Walker, Didi Luzada, Tomah, Satteransky, a first round pick that's, uh, it is five to 14 this year. They would get it.

Uh, and then it would convey to a future first round pick and two second round picks. Uh, I want to like this trade. Like, I want to say that like, you know what? The price wasn't that much. And you get a CJ McCollum. It wasn't. Although I think we'll, we'll table that. Um, and like, CJ like juices your team enough to where you could probably make the play in this year and then you go forward with the CJ Zion Ingram Corps, which defensively, I don't know how they stop anyone. They're going to give up 150 points a game, but there's a possibility that they might score 151 with that sort of juice. I don't know, though. Like, I think a lot of it comes down to that CJ has come, unfortunately, to represent a team aspiring to the middle, right?

Like for so long that the Lillard McCollum backcourt has just been the shining example of we're good, but we're not going to be great. And it's tough to really get excited about that if I'm a New Orleans fan, that we just trade for a guy who really capped a star in Portland. And now I have Zion potentially, if he's ever healthy, the next best superstar in the NBA. And we just got that guy on our team. No? Was, what do you think? I think when you say it's hard to get excited, it's hard to get excited for the Pelicans

when we don't know when Zion is coming back and we don't know what he's going to look like going forward. That's what makes all of this, like, all this is moot if Zion isn't right. And we don't know when or if that will ever be the case. So that's why everything is hard to be excited for. That's the first of all. But, you know, to New Orleans credit, I will say in the off season, when they put the space together, and then it was Devante Graham, and we were just like, what?

Like, when they put the space together, it was CJ, we would all be like, okay? Yeah, okay. I get that. I completely understand that. He's a mid-range assassin. He's got a little bit of pick-and-roll juice. Obviously, he's up his three-point volume and percentage in the past two years. Like, he used to be strictly mid-range now.

He's got a three-point game to speak of. And you start to kind of see how it made sense. But, like, for me, it's also just like, bro, you know, I remember when they were looked at as freaking geniuses and all the hall for AD. Josh Hart is just gone out the door for the fuck of it. Lanzo, the same thing. he was part of that deal. And, you know, we'll see about those Laker picks. But, like, man, this roster just seems again so freaking strange.

But if Zion comes back, I think there can be good. I worry about their playmaking because, let's face it, CJ's not a playmaker. He's basically a gunner at this point. Zion obviously hasn't really been able to show that he's that. Their best playmaker, right? right now is probably Brandon Ingram, which is crazy. Because Ingram, look, he's made a lot of strides in that direction over the past few years. I think it's been understated how good he's gotten at that kind of stuff,

operating as a pick and roll ball handler, finding open shooters when he drives, you know, on the driving kick. I think he's gotten better at a lot of that stuff. But for him to be the be all and end all of that, like, I don't know, man. I just don't, I never know what the hell is going off in the world. Well, join me, was, because the level of Zen, have found is in why the fuck not. Sure, sure.

Like, let's throw CJ McCollum in there. And as you said, the idea, you know, Zion, I think his optimal usage, the fully unlocked, best case scenario Zion is a guy with the ball in his hands, is a guy who's creating off the dribble. Brandon Ingram, as we've seen this season, is taking steps forward, as you mentioned was, as a point forward, as a distributor. We have these two point forwards on our team, basically. What would you want to put with them?

how about one of the best shooting guards in the league a guy who can create off the catch who can be a great second side guy for you who can be a better version of whatever thought you were getting from Devante Graham? I'm totally fine with that. I'm totally fine with a team that is in 10th place right now in the West

saying let's just be a little bit better than we are and see if we can make this thing interesting. I have no problem with that under these circumstances for a team that needs a little bit of a pick-me-up. Yeah, I'm not concerned about the offense, Although I do wonder if there's a lot of competition for the ball there. If we were already saying Ingram and Zion, but it had a little bit, enough that it was noticeable

in order to be the dominant ball handler on team. Like putting CJ in there is just another guy to get fed there. I'm much more concerned about a core of those three and what you can do defensively. Because Stan Van Gundy already went horse and then eventually got fired, basically yelling at them to play some semblance of defense. It had to come down to those two guys.

actually setting the tone on defense. He said this for an entire year and it didn't work out. And now we're saying like, what parts are we going to throw in there in order to compliment them in the ways where they could actually get stops? I think Larry Nance could help another internet sensation along with Tyreys Halliburton getting traded on the same day. Like, what a time for us on the podcast. But like, like, yeah, that could help in a small ball lineup. Herb Jones, another internet sensation like future defensive player of the year, Herb Jones. Right. But I don't know.

Like, that's three poor defenders at this point as part of your core. And it's going to be tough to get around that. And the other big concern here is just like the long-term money implications. I know that we don't want to get super nerdy on this podcast. But like, CJ makes his maximum. Brandon Ingram is making a max contract. Zion will presumably this offseason start a maximum extension. Like that is a lot of money.

And you're already dealing with tax concerns just with those three. And so, and New Orleans is never going to be willing to pay the tax unless they are absolute finals bulletproof contenders. And so then you're starting to wonder like, well, how are they going to side step that while still maintaining what they've already built? And it gets pretty dicey pretty quickly, especially because they keep trading their own draft picks, which is like, this wasn't a huge price. I agree with what Rob was saying. But I think it's telling that they've had to give up their own draft picks or at least move back in this year's draft and then trade their own first round pick this coming year in order to make this deal rather than the bounty of picks from the Lakers and the bucks, which signals

to me that like maybe those picks don't actually have much value and that maybe actually this is their team. And so I'm wondering, tax concerns, defense, the pick situation. Like, this is probably the team that Zion plays with for the next couple of years. And that's like, there's a glass ceiling there and that doesn't feel great. When you have Zion, though, like your offense could be so great. I'm compelled to say, we'll worry about the defense later. And this is a team

that frankly, has actually been playing pretty well on defense lately. Well, how much of that is hard? Well, they haven't had CJ McCollum in their lineup. They haven't had Zion, who has looked lost and out of shape for a lot of the time he's been in the NBA, especially on defense. But I think you establish

yourself as, we're going to be an elite offensive team, you pay the money, you get another talented guy in the door. I think where we disagree, Justin, is on the financial implications of bringing in McCollum, because to me, what it does, getting another score of that caliber with Zion frees you up that if you do need to trade Brandon Ingram, it's an easier runway out of that. It's easier to transition to a slightly different fit in which all the pieces could just cobble together a little more easily.

And I don't think, you know, as far as they move some of their own picks, sure, but they still got a bunch of Lakers picks left, Lakers swaps, et cetera. They got some of those bucks picks, which obviously won't be very good because Zion is a monster. But, you know, still, I think they have enough stuff left that when they want to make tinkers or if they want to do something drastic, like moving to Brandon Ingram, who, you know, I still am pretty high on, they can do it. And I think another thing that I always try to mention here is, like, you got to think about the GM's standing

with the organization and how much of that informs some of the moves that are being made because shit if I'm New Orleans owner I'm looking at the Memphis Grizzlies a comparable fucking franchise to mine they picked job the same year we picked

Zion why the hell are they 20 million times better than us they don't have any obvious advantages to us as far as resources city location all of this other stuff they don't have that many more advantages, but they seem to be way ahead as far as where they are organizationally on the court than the New Orleans Pelicans are.

And who's that question being posed to? The GM, David Griffin, who we all love as media members. It's like our jobs to love David Griffin. But like, if your ownership, you got to be asking him like, bro, why is what? And then it's not even just that they're way better right now and that they're, threatening a second seed and they're in the third spot right now. John Moran missed mad games. That team kept on trucking.

Zion Williamson missed all these games and we're a disaster. You got to be comparing yourself to New Orleans as a small market, excuse me, to Memphis as a small market team. Who drafted phenoms in the exact same year? And, you know, ostensibly means you're on the exact same timeline. Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the major difference right there. the grizzlies drafted their way to success. Whereas the Pelicans, I think this trade, like, one of the sneaky, like, other storylines here

is just, like, how poorly New Orleans has drafted after Zion, because here they are giving away Nikiel Alexander Walker in a trade basically is flotsam as like kind of a flyer that you guys can just have. I mean, pretty much since Zion, the guys they've drafted in the first round are Jackson Hayes. Who's been good lately? the Jackson Hayes at the Four experiment has been kind of promising. Kind of promising.

Okay. I'm not convinced, but also he's like destined to be a backup, especially as you, as long as you have Jonas Valenzhenius. Nikila Alexander Walker, who they just traded, Kira Lewis, who tore an ACL, so I don't know how much you could hold that against him, but like, that's not great. Trey Murphy, who has not been very good, that's part of the tradeback that they had with the Memphis Grizzlies.

And while they have Herb Jones in the second round, and that has been a revelation, and they deserve all the praise for that. Like, this is a very, very bad track record. And if you don't kneel your draft picks, you have to trade for a CJ McCollum in order to save your season to make the play in, to live to fight another day. And like, that's how they're getting into this mess.

And that's why I think we were so hard on them when they made the trade for Jonas and Stephen Adams and the tradeback and all that because they weren't valuing the prime draft assets that every small market team needs in order to build something to move forward with. Like, I think this team is going to be fine. But, like, CJ's already, what, 30, 31 years old?

He's probably going to start declining very soon if he hasn't already, especially considering his injuries over the past couple of years. And I just look back on it. And I'm like, why did you trade back in order to get Jackson Hayes and Akiel Alexander Walker instead of just staying at four or five or whatever it was from that Lakers pick the year that they made the Anthony Davis trade and just taken Darius Garland? I know we can get into like, oh, you should have just taken this guy. Everyone should have just drafted Janus, right?

But like, there was a clear, like, shot at just taking another swing at a player who could grow into something with Zion. And now you're not saying, like, well, we have this window of two to three years. Actually, Garland and Zion and Ingram can grow to five to six to seven years together. And we have one of the best young teams in the NBA. And that is the difference between the Grizzlies and the Pelicans. Yeah, and also, you know, I think the logic is always, well, if I got two late lottery picks, right, that's always two assets, right? Like, to go out and get a veteran, it's like, yo, I'm throwing this incredible asset at you. And you can call those guys former number 10 picks, former number 12 picks when you try to package them for players that are already established, right?

trade present for future. My problem with asset talk is always the same. These dudes are no longer assets as soon as they dribble the basketball on an NBA court. Like when teams get to watch Jackson Hayes flail for three years, except for the past few weeks, as Rob just mentioned, that doesn't make this dude an asset. You know, but I think that's always the thinking, Justin is like, well, no, I can turn it into two assets.

I think, you know, that was the Hawks, Although the hawk shit has worked out pretty nicely, all things considering. But they were like, no, no, no. I can get Trey Young right now and an asset like the guy they just traded to the Knicks for a bag of peanuts. Exactly. That's always the thinking, though. It's like, I can pretend to return one asset into two assets. And then they just look like assets.

It's the bites at the Apple thing, right? Like, oh, you have more lottery tickets, et cetera. Like, you're not going to hit them all, but you will hit one or two. But I don't know, I'd rather have first choice of a better asset than multiple guys. Well, and that's where the Grizzlies comparison is unfavorable and maybe in some ways unfair. I'm kind of of the mind that most of the draft is a total crapshoot. It's within a range of randomness between the lottery, the picks, and then just your scouting on a year-to-your basis. Justin, the draft results you laid out, to me, read like an average NBA team.

They nailed the number one pick when they had it, at least based on talent. Zion is an unbelievable talent. The health thing is kind of its own question mark. But otherwise, this is kind of what you expect for picking in the late teens, picking in the latter half of the top 10. This is kind of what you get unless you're the Memphis Grizzlies, unless you're the Toronto Raptors. I think there are maybe like three or four teams in the NBA that consistently nail their draft stuff.

similarly how there's like three or four coaches in the NBA who really transform what you do. Otherwise, it's like the guy from number five to number 20. It's all kind of in the same range as far as draft histories, as far as coaching, as far as a lot of this stuff goes. There's just, there's so much randomness in it. I think that's a very good point. Like maybe the Grizzlies are the outlier and nobody else can really touch that. On the other hand, I would just counter drafting is the most important thing for a small market franchise.

Absolutely. If you are not uniquely good at that, you need to. to reevaluate who's running your franchise, and how much better would this ledger look if it was Zion and Hunter or Zion and Garland, as opposed to Zion in the mismatch that I just laid out? Well, the difference between having to trade

for C.J. McCollum on his current contract and drafting Desmond Bain is transformational to what you can do as far as putting your roster together. That is a transformational difference, and that's why the Grizzlies are headed one way, and the Pelicans are just kind of clawing to hold on to 10th century.

They're on their way, Rob. They're on their way to the party. Don't worry. They just got out to shower. They're getting dressed. Just threw some deodorant on. They're good to go. We got the spray kind.

That's always in the NBA locker room. Should we talk about the Portland side of this at all? Yes. Let's talk about it briefly. They have a completely new team around Damien Liller. In fact, they might not even have much of a team around Liller. The team might come via the draft. Or maybe they're just like weird scuttle buck happening as we're recording this

podcast about like Jeremy Grant chases in the summer and Ben Simmons and maybe they just like, these are just a bunch of assets where we just bring in the next guy over the off season. I don't know, but they have completely hit reboot. Rob, what do you think so far as of right now the job that the Blazers have done in order to completely reshape their franchise? Well, you said, you know, maybe these are all just a bunch of assets. So we're going to package them together for a future move. What are the assets?

because as far as I can see so they made these two trades they traded Robert Covington and Norman Powell to the Clippers they made this big trade with McCollum out of both of those deals they traded away four of their best players including Larry Nance in that group two

they got one first round pick and Josh Hart is the best player they got back and they got their own pick which is guaranteed to be trash and you know you can say I mean they're guaranteed to be trashed

in regular season So their pick is going to be good. I know people were talking about the like cap space aspect of this, that that was a bit overblown. Like they would have to renounce a bunch of dudes. And like they got Josh Hart. No one's going to Portland. Like, yeah, that part of it doesn't make any sense.

I think it's just, you know, the breakup with, oh, she, man. This is like, this isn't like, yo, we break up and you give the person all this stuff back. This is like, no, this person once bought me a shirt. I'm sending that shirt to Goodwill. We're burning all the photos at this day. Like, every single thing Neil Olshea has done in the last two years has been completely undone. It's like, get all these shit out of here, which is, which I find to just be hilarious

as like the messages sent to Olshe and what they thought about the job that he did. And I think it gives him the opportunity to sort of have their feet in both lanes, right? as far as all right, they've completely gotten rid of all of the stuff that was around Dame. And as my man Nate Jones, who again is very close to Dame Lillard, put on Twitter,

he's like, now they can try to build a balanced roster for the first time, probably ever in the Dame era, or which Nate didn't mention, if they figure out that they have to move on from Nate, they're very, excuse me, name, from Dave,

they're very well, for both of them. They're very well positioned to do that, right? And I think this is what they needed to do after firing the GM early in the season, after all of the injuries and just after banging your head against the wall with the Dame and CJ thing, three years longer than was necessary. This is what they needed to do. And you got to give them props for doing it relatively cleanly.

Do we? For doing it two, three years, two. late. And again, I will advocate on almost every case to wait, to wait, to hold on, to see if these guys can figure it out, because we've seen it. We've seen teams figure it out if given enough time. That was one of those cases where between that and Simmons, I mean, it's just, it's just chickens coming home to roost all across the NBA as far as the guys who people have been saying they need to be broken up and waiting too long. And then you get Josh Hart back as the centerpiece of your return for C.G. McCollum, which I cannot imagine

is what the Blazers envisioned if they were going to split those guys up with they would get in return. It's not Josh Hart. It's flexibility. It's Josh Hart and the flexibility to give Anthony Simons a new contract. Yeah, essentially. Yeah, I do think like the Capkeek and me likes what they've done because they had so many bad contracts on that book.

I do not want to be paying Norm Powell four years from now. And I think people were like, yo, Norm Powell is like a valuable piece. How come they didn't get more from? Was he? You know, especially. And especially when you're dealing from. the case like, Norman Powell's 6.3. C.J.

McCollum is 6-2 on a good day. And then the game is what he is and it's like, teams is like, really? You're just going to keep doing that? Really? Yeah. Really? Now it's going to be Hart McCollum in Simons. Yeah. Teams aren't dumb. They're like, bro, you can't do anything with those dudes.

So those assets were distressed in their current context. I think the problem with that deal was not, oh, that they made this trade because if you're reading the T leaves and the Blazers are going to tear this thing down. Those guys are going to have to move on. Rob Covington, Norm Powell, they're going to move on.

You couldn't wait a few days, see if the Sixers get desperate and say, oh, we would really love another shooter on the perimeter like Norm Powell. See, you can get a little something more than they got for him in Covington. I think that's the argument more so than don't trade those guys. It's, did the clippers really have so much going on that they were going to jump on some alternative offer? And if you yank the rug on this one? probably just speaks to how bad the contracts are, which is like, now I can understand why you

needed to get out from under them. So, like, they do have kind of a blank canvas here. I'm actually higher on heart than it seems like you guys are. I think he's a defensive tone setter. He's good, good player. Yeah, on a very good contract. Um, like, which is exactly what they need. Is he a small forward? Well, that's the problem. Like, he's probably a shooting guard who can't shoot, but he's also the type of player, I think, is much more valuable than the stats suggests. And like, he's also the type of player who two years down the road, the, the, the blaze, will get tired of the fact that he can't shoot. But for now, like, he's a good player to have,

especially when you're trying to rebuild your culture. My question is just like, yeah, they have all these assets and maybe they turn into something. Maybe they build this young core around Dame. My question, we've talked about this in the past, and I think it's way more relevant now, is like, can you reboot around a 31-year-old Damien Lillard in time in order to take advantage

of his prime years? And does this mean that you're going to give Damien Lillard the extension, the very, very, very, very pricey extension that he reportedly wanted in order to commit to such a rebuild. So, like, now you face even bigger questions, I think. I feel like the only time I've ever seen this happen is Dirk in Dallas. I can't think of a single other time.

It was like, all right, we rebuilt and rebooted this roster in such a way that finally we got all the pieces to fit around the most important guy in our team. Are you talking about Dallas when the... they won the title or Dallas when Dirk faded into it? They won the title, right? Like that was the how many is iteration of the Dallas Mavericks built around Dirk Novitsky, right? Like that was like version 4.0 of built around Dirk.

And look, they nailed it. They got it exactly right. You know, they had the right type of center around him. They had the right type of pieces around him to make it work. And of course, that's a different MBA. and we're talking about two different plays. But I'm just saying like the last time I seen the team do their fourth, fifth reboot of their roster around this superstar franchise player. And it like worked was Dirk.

So again, it's possible. Although I don't, I certainly don't think it's probable. Yeah, there's not a great track record for it. I think it's Dirk and maybe like the, the Lakers reboot for Kobe's last two championships. POW. That would be the equivalent. But you're coming from a very different place if you're the Lakers and you're coming with a very different kind of player in Kobe versus

Damien Lillard coming off of a major injury and the worst season of his career with almost nothing around him. Very, very little in terms of supporting cast right now. The Blazers are going to have to flesh out their entire roster again. This reminds me a little bit of and in a way that makes me a little bit nervous of what the Rockets went through with James Harden

after they traded for John Wall, where it's like, is this guy going to come back or not? I think Dame is expressing in every way he can that he wants to be a Blazor for life. This is what he wants. He wants to stay in Portland. That's great. But the Blazers have to build in a way right now,

as Was alluded to, on a dual-track model where every move they make makes sense with Dame and without Dame in a future in which he's no longer a part of their team. I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. It's good to have flexibility. It's good to have different options,

but there's no question. hard. It's hard to find players who fit both of those timelines and models at once. And that's how if you're the Rockets, you end up with, hey, we have Christian Wood all of a sudden. And maybe we're perpetually trying to trade Christian Wood. Who knows? You know who the biggest winner of this trade is?

Our friend Darry because all of a sudden, it seems like every star is wanting out. Like, seems like the hardened thing may or may not happen, but at the very least he's disgruntled there. Bradley Beale is out for the season now with wrist surgery, so he's off the table.

But, like, that only puts more doubt in whether or not he is willing to stay and whether the wizards want him to stay long term, want to pay him all that money. And now we have Damien Lillard, who is staring at Anthony Simons being his number two. And I would have to ask myself, if I'm Dame, like, wouldn't it be better to just, like, run with Joel and Bede into the wild and just, like, try to put together a title contender there? we talked about the opportunity cost of Daryl making a deal earlier as opposed to waiting to see if any of these guys shake loose. I mean, at the very least, they have options now. I'll just say that.

Well, Daryl is the big winner. Do you know who the big loser of this trade is? Us, because we're losing podcast fodder by the day. I mean, that's definitely true. But I think it's Nikiel Alexander Walker who, because he now plays with Anthony Simons, is not even the best version of himself on his own team anymore.

It's just been totally supplanted in his lane and it's brutal to see. Maybe the solution for that guy's career is less running and gunning and more like, yo, maybe guard a guy, maybe pick your spots. What a side swipe on our guy gnaw here? I'm just saying.

I'm just saying. I mean, we've gone so far around the bend. Waz is advocating restraint. I never thought I would be the day, but here we are. Also, also, I've been in a closet Anthony Simon's guy for a few years now. It was looking bleak last year

and I was like, oh, maybe this is never going to happen. But this year, he's shown himself to be a player, so my patience has been rewarded. Maybe the brightest spot in Portland season, Anthony Simons. He's been tremendous for them. I have some breaking and relevant news to share with you from our guy, Adrian

Wozranowski. The Utah Jazz are acquiring guard, Nikiel Alexander Walker. And the Spurs is Wancho, Hernam Gomez in a three-way trade. The Spurs get Thomas Satteransky in a second round pick, and the Blazers get Joe Ingalls, Elijah Hughes, RIP,

Joe Ingalls, and a second round pick. So the Jazz who need defense are definitely going to need Nikola Alexander Walker to play some defense. Yeah, they need, at the very least, like, athleticism

on the wing, like, or the threat of, athleticism on the wing because they're just so sorely lacking in that right now. So good for them that they're trying something here. My takeaway from that deal is good for the Cavs for jumping

on the Lavert deal when they did for a guy who's out with a contract and a pick basically because Joe Engel's contract seemed like the only way at least one of the primary ways the jazz we're going to try to get better. Attaching something to that to get something in return. And correct me if I'm right, Justin, but you said

it's Nikiel Alexander Walker and Wancho Herman Gomez that are the primary returns for them in that. Yep. I mean, it's not what you want if you're Utah. Yeah, it's not what you want. Like, yeah, this seems like filling out the reserve unit with some high upside guys, which nice, nice to have. Like, if you're a believer in Alexander Walker, you know, I don't know how the jazz are

getting that type of player otherwise. I am not a big Nikola Alexander Walker guy at this point, but, you know, the Alexander family has produced some talent. So maybe something works out there. I just got to say, just like throwing Joe Ingalls into the wild here. Like, he's going to the Blazers. Clearly his salary flots him. It seemed like it was going to happen anyway, even if he was healthy.

But, like, they just had him on the broadcast, do, like, an entire quarter's worth of, like, reflection on his career. And we probably should have known then. Jesus. Yeah. We'll see how that all works out. Briefly here, before we go here, a couple predictions was, do you think Hardin becomes a or by 12-0-1 tomorrow.

I think so. I think because I think Darrell's just going to have to realize that it's do or die. It's now and never. His conference is wide open. You know, and, like, Joelle and Bede is playing at a level

we've never seen him play before. This is all-time great big man, Hall of Fame stuff. If it costs you at Maxie or Thuyah bull, two guys who are good players who we like, who, again, Internet might be over, in them as far as their importance in a playoff setting.

I think ultimately he's going to have to blink and face reality. He's just to be like, all right, I'm going to do what I got to do to get hardened into this building. I now have hardened and Embed. I'm ready to rock and roll. Let's see what I got against the bucks. Let's see what I got against Brooklyn. And like, oh, I just love the idea of Brooklyn and Ben Simmons playing the Sixers in the playoffs. a freaking Sixers home game against the Nets.

I'm just, oh my God, my head wants to explode at just the thought of that happening this season in the playoffs. I also think it's going to happen almost for the opposite reason. I think if you're the Nets, you just have zero confidence in Hardin being back on your team after this season.

Yeah, and by the way, by the way, fuck off. Get out of here, James Hart. Like, like, the Jain, the Hardin thing is hilarious because, again, like, you're one million teammates that are not

up to snuff for you and again you're a guy who's never done a single thing in the playoffs. Nothing. You have no track record of being excellent in the playoffs and now you're bitching and griping about people not being at your level

and not up to your expectations. Get out of here. I still have KD. Therefore, I'm good baby. Yeah. I don't know. If I were the next, I would say to Hardin, where else are you going? Like, who has cap space over the summer in order to sign you? You know this is inevitability. And I wonder if Daryl, our friend, is going to try to

push too hard in order to keep a maxi or a thibble. And this actually just extends out into the offseason for that reason. There's going to be a staring contest about the minute details, which is actually why Hardin wasn't there straight from the rockets, right? Like Daryl drew a hardline reportedly over including a maxi or additional stuff including in addition to Simmons. And so I wonder if that happens again. I don't know if I'm ready for a full-on prediction with this, but I think the deal is going to happen. I think neither Maxi or Thibel are going to be in it.

I think it's going to be primarily Ben Simmons and maybe picks based for Hardin. It's just a gut feeling based on where we are right now. All right. We will wait and see what happens there. We'll have a ton of stuff on the ringer NBA. show feed and on the Bill Simmons podcast feed for the deadline. So check those out Thursday and Friday. But that is it for us. We'll be back next week as a trio. Thank you to Devin Manzi for filling out in production. If you have a birthday party, please invite Robin and I, but not why. We'll see you next time.