The Ringer NBA Show - Wolves Wallop the Thunder. Plus, How a Pacers Finals Run Could Alter the East Long-Term. | Group Chat

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Justin, Rob, and Wos are here to react to another blowout in the Western Conference Finals. They discuss what went right for the Timberwolves and what happens next in this series. After that, they talk about the Pacers' 2-0 series lead over the Knicks. Then, they take a bigger picture look at what lessons teams can learn from the Pacers in terms of team building and they wonder who the contenders are in the East next season. Hosts: Justin Verrier, Rob Mahoney, and Wosny Lambre Producers: Isaiah Blakely and Ben Cruz Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and listen to the end of the episode for additional details must be 21 plus and present in select states gambling problem call 1 800 gambler or visit rg dash help dot com hello and welcome to group chat i am justin verrier and joining me rob mahoney big wads now i know a lot of our listeners are plugging in on spotify so they get the video of us now but for everybody at home I just want everybody to know that Rob is currently dressed in a black tank top and he has his hair spiked up in the air like he's the little kid from Jerry McGuire. Why are you pointing out? It's too old, baby. Why are you pointing out my visual reference points, Justin, when we've just been admiring your stash pre-show over here.

It's really coming in nicely. I would say it's resplendent. How would you describe it? It's summer summer stash season. You guys need to get on board. The other day, Waz has been on board for the record. He's been around here. He's not doing it for a bit.

That's just a way of life. Yesterday, on Friday, I drove to the hardware store to pick up fertilizer while listening to Bob Seeger with the windows down. And so I was just like, let's just lean all the way into the middle age. Oh, my God, dude. Just lifestyle and just go full board. And so here I am. So you were right to do it.

I never, I really never, never, would have anticipated this turn for you, but now that you've adopted it, it just fits like a glove, you know? You're where you were always meant to be. It really is the only thing I have going on in my life right now. So I'm here for it. Well,

more things are going on for the Minnesota Jimberwolves because they got back on board in a big old way. We'll talk about the Eastern Conference finals a little later, go a little bit bigger picture. But we have to start. We are contractually obligated because it was the game that happened tonight. With the lamb basting that just occurred in game three of the Western Conference

Finals, Wolfs 143, Thunder 101, dear Lord, Rob, do you want to start with the Terrence Shannon legacy game? That seems to be the most pertinent thing from this. Yeah, where else would you even begin with a game like this? I did genuinely enjoy the Terran Shannon minutes, but I think

it was a reminder to me this game that first and foremost, the best adjustment you can make in a lot of these playoffs series is play with a fuck ton more force than the last time you played. Play a lot better. And look, there's a lot things within that, you know, picking up higher on defense, more team rebounding, driving to force the rotation, even if you're not going to be able to score out of like, all those things are

important and we can go like super granular if we want to, but it's just hard to ignore the fact that Minnesota played a lot harder and a lot better because they brought that force in so many elements of their game. Yeah, just the turnover is in the first quarter alone. Oh, yeah. You kind of just knew that we were in for a different kind of game where they're ripping guys at half court for dunks. Rudy Gobert was ripping Shea at half court for ducks. And it's important because their offense

has been kind of stuck in the mud the two previous games. And so to get out for runouts and easy baskets set the tone, holding the thunder to 14 points in the first quarter, like it pretty much damn there ended this game by doing that. And, you know, defense can sometimes generate offense. And I think that was the case

tonight. And of course, you know, they actually made their threes, which is always sort of the weather vane for this team. Yeah, I have OKC with five turnovers in the first 10 minutes of this game. The crowd was on top of SGA the entire time chanting foul merchant at him. Do we blame Doris Burke for that one? Did she just enter that into the harassment from the road arena? I don't know. I mean, look, the Shay part of it is what it is.

Like, he looked pretty flummoxed for a lot of this game. I thought Minnesota did a good job of picking up higher, amping up the pressure, again, without fouling. The game was also just called differently in a way that suited Minnesota's physicality, did not suit Alex Caruso by comparison, who did not get the whistle he had been getting throughout these playoffs. And as a result, his effect was just completely neutered in this game. But ultimately, I think you guys are both right to point out the turnovers.

Like, OKC turned the ball over eight times in game two. They hit that mark in about 15 minutes of this game. And that, I mean, it just really gave you a sense of the control. that the wolf's defense was able to rest out of this entire affair through that defensive effort, through that pressure that they were able to bring. And then, yeah, you're getting all those easy baskets that you talked about was, you're getting Ant so much easier offense early on in this game. And so then he's hitting and hitting and hitting and starting to feel overwhelming.

When he is outscore, it's not just holding the Thunder offense to 14 points in the first quarter. It's Ant outscoring the Thunder 17, 14 in the first quarter. That's kind of game set match right there. And I like the idea of heavy ball pressure on this team because obviously Shea is one of the best handles in the NBA. But these other guys, man, they lunch me if you apply a certain kind of pressure, like force the ball out of Shea's hand and make these guys put it on the deck and show that they could like actually create against some lengthy, athletic, physical, you know, wing defenders. And so I thought that was a nice adjustment as well. Like obviously Shea, like, I think he's going to destroy anybody that's like trying to pressure him up like that. But J-dub, like Lou Dorr, forget about it.

Caruso, these guys aren't the best ball handlers in the league. So I thought that was a nice adjustment as well. Yeah. We got to talk about aunt 30 points in 30 minutes. Pretty good. Not bad. Two things that jumped out to me. I'm curious what you think, Rob.

First of them foremost, seemed like they were getting more off ball. and they were almost like running actions for him. Like he was Steph at a certain point for catching shoot opportunities. I was like, all right, he could do that considering like the success he had this season, one of the best pull of three point shooters we have in the game right now and just three point shooters overall. On top of that, just seemed like he was making decisions quicker. Like there were times where Kaysen Wallace was getting screened by Rudy. There's one play in particular where Rudy re-screened.

And by the time that Kaysen recovered, Ant was already in his motion going to the left in order to pull up, just seemed like things were just flowing better. Or was it, do you think like aggressiveness for him or do you think it was something more tactical that Chris Finch did? I think it's all the above. The off ball stuff, I think started stewing a little bit in game two. They started kind of experimenting with it,

trying to get him involved off ball a little bit more. And then you really saw it be a point of emphasis in this game, rightly so. The Thunder have such an overloading defense, right? Like, they are going to lean wherever the ball is. And so if you're going to just do ant high pick and roll after high pick and roll, it's going to have four defenders in his way every time he tries to drive. But if you start with Julius Randall or you start with Mike Connors, And then all of a sudden you're swinging to Ant to attack the defense while it's overextended.

You're just getting so much more of an advantage off of his initial thrust. And I thought you saw the benefits of that with his scoring, but also with the kickouts for threes where the thunders were, thunder were just scrambling in a totally different way to try to make it out to every shooter possible. And I think mostly failing in that regard. I also thought, I did think his decision making was CRISPR, as you mentioned, Justin. But also, there were some plays where the escape artistry from Ant was just unbelievable. like it looked like he was doubled.

It looked like he was pinned against the sideline. And then all of a sudden he's turning the corner and he's all the way to the basket. Like those are the kinds of explosive athletic plays that you need to puncture the Thunder defense period. And Ant played like a superstar, a god tier athlete, like everything that he needed to be for the wolves to be successful in the series. Yeah, it helps to not be predictable, right? Like this is a freak. This is the best defense in the NBA. you want to switch up the way that you're trying to set up your best player

instead of just having them bring the ball up the court and set the most obvious screen. Like, you know, make the defense have to think. And I thought obviously getting Ant off of the rock. Like, you have Mike Connolly for a reason. And Julius Randall throughout the playoffs has shown that he can be the sort of engine that gets the offense kind of moving. And so, yeah, that was a great adjustment by Finch.

and Aunt responded accordingly. Like the jumper was working. The drive game was working. Like Rob said, like driving to pass, I thought that was a big, big key. Julius Randall did a lot of that as well. But yeah, Ant looked like the man tonight. It motivates you to drive to pass to when these other guys are hitting their shots.

It's a tougher proposition when you're kicking out and they're shooting 28% from three or whatever. But you're getting almost 50% shooting from three overall for the team for the wolves. And I think even more importantly on a more singular level, when Nas and Nikiel Alexander Walker are good, the wolves are just a completely different team. And they were hitting shots. They were also making really good floor plays,

just like keeping the offense moving. Having that one passaway three be a reliable weapon against the thunder opens up a lot. Like there's just no question about it. Yeah, and I do think a big part of getting ant off the ball and all that kind of stuff trickling down from there is obviously Randall being a factor.

He didn't even close game two the other night. He basically had to wave his, family away so they wouldn't watch him just just like sitting on the bench which was tough he was just rotten there um he scored early and then i also thought from there he didn't press too hard he seemed like he was picking his mismatches and i was to be seen throughout this postseason it seems like he's at his best when he's picking his spots just like whenever he's able to play bully ball and case and walles unfortunately was kind of the recipient of this early and often and just spray from there it just seems like everything clicks into place for this team was.

And so I have to wonder, I think this is the big question coming out of this because basically three or maybe even two quarters of this didn't matter, like how much of this is repeatable going into a game four. Well, that's the thing about a long series. You start to get a certain understanding about where the actual help is coming from. He looked confused in many moments throughout the first two games. And then tonight it felt like he had a better grasp in a handle on, you know, what OKC would, how the defense would sort of respond,

depending on what type of move he did. And that's why I think he was better able to get the ball out on his drives and actually have the ball hit the hands of the intended target and not just be a pick six the other way, right? And so that's the thing about a long series, man. Like, you get to know the tendencies a lot better. And then, you know, the stuff that gets everybody gone. We'll see how OKC adjusts going forward.

That's kind of what's fun about this too is we don't really know how OKC is going to adjust, not just because you know, Mark Dagnall can throw a bunch of stuff out there. The Thunder are a really versatile defense. They just literally have never been in this position before. The Thunder are not used to being on the business end of this kind of dominance. Their biggest loss in these playoffs was a one single double digit loss by 12.

Their biggest loss in last postseason. One single double digit loss by 12. This does not happen to them. And I say that for two reasons. one, a win this big against a team this good is an achievement in and of itself for the Wolves. This is a phenomenal performance by Minnesota. And two, we just literally don't know tactically, psychologically otherwise, like how the Thunder bounced back from a game like this because they've never had to do it before. Yeah, I think we learned in the second round

that after the Thunder had the same sort of lopsided result against the Nuggets, like the carryover effect is pretty minimal because that was the dogfight throughout the rest of that series. It didn't seem like that was sustainable or repeatable going forward in the series. And so I don't know. Like on one hand, I almost wonder getting just your ass width so definitively was. It might actually work in the thunder's favor because now they want to go out and prove something different. A lot of this, I do think came down to effort. Just seemed like the wolves had been flat for two straight games. And now it just flip-flop. I don't know if that's home court advantage. I don't know if that it was just rubber me in the road with them being down too. But like a lot of it was just force

and just want to, essentially. I think there's something to, like, human nature is just like, yeah, we beat these guys two games. We got two games in hand. Yeah, it'd be nice to go up 3-0 and effectively end the series, but, like, they're in a great position even still because they had the two games in hand. So that's what I, that's what I mostly chalk up the blowout nature, too. I think Minnesota was going to win this game no matter what. But, like, this thing was, they were up by 30 at halftime, right? I think that speaks to OKC just being like, all right, man,

like we handled our business. They got their one game. We'll get them in game four. Once the wolves built like a 25 point leader so, you could just feel the thunder being on their heels the whole time. And especially defensively, they just don't function that way. They're just not going to win, win margins,

win quarters, win runs so long as that's the case. So it did feel like they kind of had the satisfaction of a 2O lead at a certain point. I have had to stop myself throughout this postseason and remind myself, that like this is still part of the ascent for the thunder. Like their core will only get better from here. And they do have a lot of options in order to supplement them with the right guys. But like this is probably the worst. They're going to be if these three are healthy going forward.

And they're playing like it right now. This seems like a very young team thing to do where it's like otherwise, maybe an older, more veteran team, the Warriors in past years would know that you have to step on the throat because if you let a team back in it, then it's a completely different series. Now it's just like, I don't know. I'm asking myself, like, how far are we going to go from here? Like, I don't know. Do you think this is more of like a OKC shuts the door from here?

Or are we talking six, seven at this point? No, I can see the wolves winning the next game and making this a super long series. Like, it's funny because it's every single playoffs, every series we do the same thing. Like, we'll just have wild swings of emotion about how we feel about a team. Yeah. Just giving the, like, what? what just recently happened. After game two, everybody on my internet was like,

it's over, let's fold up the playoffs. So, okay, he's the champion. Hand him the trophy right now. Like, that's literally what the discussion was. So, like, I don't think, like, they're now going to blow the series. But, you know, I didn't think that, like, everything was completely settled, done and dusted after game two either.

I think it's something closer to the middle, right? Like, I feel like they're in good position to ultimately win this series, but it's going to be a battle. It's also felt like the kind of series where home court advantage actually has mattered. Like the energy that the wolves have played with is amplifying energy they're getting from their home crowd. It's not a coincidence that guys like Nas and Nikiel Alexander Walker are playing better at home that tends to happen with guys of their caliber. So it makes sense that the wolves would win a game like this.

Honestly, game four is the tougher one in a lot of ways. Like to come down from the emotional high and the momentum of this kind of walloping and do it all over again. Start from scratch, have to come out with the same kind of energy for games. for the same kind of jump out of the outset. It is, it is tough. I also fully expect game four to be more of a dog fight, certainly than this one was. That's not a not a tough bar to clear. But I think we're going to get a more competitive game in what like shapes up to be a

pretty competitive series, certainly more so than the first two games will lead you to believe. Do you think that the Thunder had just heard all of my gardening talk and they were just like obsessed with the top of the arena terrarium or whatever they have at Target Center? They're just like marveling at the, the, I don't know, the marigolds? Yeah, there you go. The marigolds?

Yeah, like the flowers. Oh, yeah. I have gotten a lot of, I've gotten a lot of message personally about the audacity, Justin, of you planting two ears of corn. That's right. Yeah, you sent us that email from, was it hutch? No, we got some legit gardening tips, but then I'm getting a whole separate genre of just like, what is Justin doing only planting two ears of corn?

Because it's such a bold new shredding. or... It really is. You know, you're one of the greatest and most creative gardening minds of your generation. You know,

like you're really just throwing stuff out there. You're trying it in a ways that no one's ever done it before. Singular ears of corn grown in the backyard. You wanting to bring up flowers from the Minnesota arena

on this podcast. It's just, you are leaning into this Portland man thing. It's crazy. Well, they do have, what is it on the roof? It's like, is it a living garden?

Is it a living garden? Is that what you're talking? about on the top of Target Center. You've referenced, we talked about this before. I don't think we've talked about this before. Oh, yeah. Even when they used to have one of those two Barclays, used to have like a grass patch on the top

of the arena. I don't know if they still got that anymore, but when they first opened it, they definitely did. We're sure that the Target Center does. We have talked about this explicitly. And I'm Googling it as we're talking. Yeah, there's definitely, if you look at the overhead, there's some sort of.

If you look at the overhead. check the drone footage paying for those drone shots, you know? They're getting their money's worth here. Do you want to do 20 on Terrence Shannon? Because you called this going into the postseason. I was like, whose legacy is on the line here? And you said, Karen Shannon.

I told you it was. And he proved it. He stepped up in his moment. Here's the thing. The Terran Shannon arrival in the series was awesome. Like him coming in, five straight points. I think he had scored six in the entire postseason. to date and had nine in that first stint alone.

In four minutes. Just an amazing turnout from him and gave them like really good energy. I thought really good defensive energy as well. Just was playing exactly the way you want your young role players to enter a series and play. There's also the part of this that as we've been talking about and I'm sure we will talk about with the Eastern Conference finals, they didn't trade someone out of the rotation to bring in Terrence Shannon. It was just we did play eight and now we're going to play nine.

He's their Ben Shepard. He is their Ben Shepard. stepping into this particular role, sopping up these minutes in a way that has been like actually helpful to the team. And you would hope then trades off a little less burn,

a little less tired for some of these other guys, these other more veteran guys in the rotation. So if they can get that from him, I mean, look, he's not going to score that well. Every stint he plays in this series. This may have been an exception more than it is the rule. But in a game like this,

it's hugely welcome. As soon as AJ Mitchell got into the game, I was like, let's fucking go for O.K. Unfortunately, I think that was as much of a white flag as anything or a sign that Mark Dagnall was searching for something, anything at that point. All you need to know about this game is that Terrence Shannon after his initial stand, he got a standing ovation in the second quarter. As he damn well should. Right. 15 points.

Will he get 15 points the rest of the postseason? No. Probably not. Hard to see it. But also, also as far as, you know, telling factors in this game go, the fact that the Thunder started Isaiah Joe for the third quarter, a guy who just like has not hit shots in these playoffs for the most part, did not hit shots in this game,

but just the theoretical possibility of we got to put points on the board. Like we got to we got to shave this like 40 something point deficit down somehow. And it didn't do it. Let me, spoiler alert, Isaiah Joe did not work. Vandals turning your bets into bigger wins with a parley profit boost. That's right. Build a same game parlay or parlay. and you can boost your winnings by 30% with a profit boost.

You pick the teams, player stats, all of it. Vanduel just adds a little fuel to the fire. All right. So we're looking at Eastern Conference Finals, game three. We're going back to the field house in Indiana. Line is only two points. God, I really want to pick the Pacers here. They just seem like the better team,

but I can't imagine that they're going to go up 3-0 against a Knicks team that has every reason to play like their life is on the line. So just give me the Nix plus two. Let's just not talk about it anymore. I don't love it, but I think I'm going to lean in that direction, Knicks plus two.

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Gamble and problem, call 1800 gambler or visit rg dash help.com. All right. Now let's flip to the actual corn boys here because Indiana is doing something special here in the Eastern Conference finals. I think after game one, We recorded a pot, I believe, after that game won. And the feeling was basically like, wow, Indiana really showed up in the final minutes of regulation then into overtime. And this game was, I think that my feeling was like, wow, they really just showed up the entire game. And they might just be the better team at this point.

I mean, watching game two, like the team that was more crisp, the team that just played with like a laser precision was Indiana. the next defense was so freaking sloppy, particularly in that fourth quarter where they just no communication on screens on the back line, like just giving up layups and wide open. They looked lost. They looked as if they'd never heard of the Pacers before, never seen this team play,

has no idea what their game plan is. And Indiana is the opposite of that, man. They are executing at an insanely high level. And, you know, we talk about, man, I forget who I was talking to about this, but the word that he used to describe the Pacers play is freedom. They play with a sense of freedom, man. Like, when T.J. McConnell comes in the game,

he has an ultimate green light, as if he's a freaking star. And, like, that sort of energy infuses everything that they do, man. And it's just a beautiful brand of basketball to watch because it is very, like, everybody's involved, everybody's doing their part. Yes, Halliburton has to be great in moments, but then, you know, Pascal Seacom could just show up and be Charles Barkley for a night.

Like, it's freaking crazy, honestly. Like, I just thought they just looked like the more better prepared team and just the team that's just like the synergy is on another level. Yeah, I don't think the execution in terms of that precision you're talking about, was it was even comparable for the Knicks and the Pacers. I think the Knicks had great moments, great performances. Like, they scored well. overall, which is why ultimately it was a competitive game.

But it never really felt crisp in that way. You didn't see the same depth of defensive breakdown that the Pacers were able to create. They're really tough team to guard Indiana is like in the Knicks defense. Like it's a lot of action. It's a lot you have to talk through. It's a lot you have to work through. The Knicks did not seem super up for it.

And I think a lot of that started with the fact that once the Pacers started really pointing and picking on Jalen Brunson and Kat to glaring weaknesses that are there every game, part of the reason why the Knicks starting lineup has not really worked in these playoffs on balance. Like it just has not performed very well on balance in part because of those two guys defensively. You could just see the whole thing unravel. Once they were trying to like overprotect Brunson

to prevent like to protect him, prevent him from having to switch or, you know, Kat would get stuck on the island against Tyre's Halliburton and just like give up easy drives, give up shots, give up kickouts. I don't think they ever really came up with a good answer for those things. And that's just Indiana's base offense. Like it doesn't even have to be Tyreys Halliburton.

Sometimes it's just like their role players going through actions, creating problems for Nicks across the board. Yeah, the approach late in the game, I think was pretty telling yet again, where it's just still a lot of Brunson pounding the air out of the ball, getting what he can, basically playing hero ball for the Knicks because that is their option. I guess he's the clutch player of the year. And if you're going to be that guy and Tibbs is going to be your coach, he's going to go to him every single time. On the other end, though, it was like such an orchestrated, like, well-thought-out approach to each possession to where on one player, it was like Brunson guarding Halliburton so we're going to take him we're going to drive against him we're going to get Mitch to try to collapse and he does from the corner Miles Turner wide open three it's just like the precision as you guys are talking about so just like so stark the difference there

and I also thought it was like some of the tactical things were also interesting because first you had Tibbs playing Mitchell Robinson into the ground early on almost like unable to like combat his impulse control of like if a guy is just winning each individual possession, he just can't take him out and basically ran him into the ground. And then late in the game, you saw Carlisle be like almost prudent about when he would go hackamitch. Like I think he only did it once if memory serves. And that one time was when Mitchell Robinson was clearly gasped late in the game. And he did so specifically to put him on the line. He did, I think he missed at least one of them. And then immediately they had to pull him for towns because the free throws were going to be an issue. And so it's just like,

He's pushing the buttons. And it's just like a lot of it could just be makeup of teams. I want to talk about that. But a lot of it could also just be the guys pulling the strings. I think it is part of it. I think the cat and Mitchell Robinson part of that dance is particularly fascinating. Carl Anthony Towns is a hugely important part of the Knicks. And he was off the floor for eight-ish minutes of the fourth quarter.

And it felt clear that Tom Tibito stylistically liked the way the team was playing with Mitchell Robinson out there better. I would imagine in part because the defense, obviously the rebounding is a part of it too. But offensively, other than the rebounds, Mitchell Robinson gives you extremely little. Like you've seen him on his attempts to catch on the role and do anything with the ball. He tried to do a poster.

Oh, my God. That was pathetic. Oh, my God. Threw that thing off the glass, like a shot put. Like from the free throw line. It was such a terrible sequence for the Knicks. And that gives you a sense of like for some of these guys, their roles are extremely limited

in terms of what they give you offensively. I thought McHale Bridges did a good job selectively targeting guys like Tyrese Halliburton in this game to put himself on the board in a meaningful way. But other than that, it's like sometimes OG is just kind of in the corner. Sometimes Kat is just kind of pick and roll,

pop on the perimeter. And then, yeah, you get into Jaylen Brunson Hero Ball because there's not a lot else that's moving. Yeah, I mean, to me, the Knicks offense is going to be what is going to be. They're not going to turn into the freaking Warriors overnight. Like, it just is what it is.

But making Indiana less comfortable on offense, I think they have an ability to be better than they've shown. I'm not saying they should be shutting the Pacers down, but they should they just, game two was a disgrace. I'm sorry, man.

Like, to be in the fourth quarter and you basically playing for your season and that effort, Indiana carved these dudes up like some turkeys, some jobs. some jive turkeys. In front of Jerry Ferrara, no less. Yeah.

Jesus. And so, yeah, I thought that was pathetic. They're going to have to do much better in Indiana if they want to keep this series going. Everything just seems so hard for the Knicks. And I guess that is the Tibbs way, that is the Jalen Brunson way. But it's particularly like a disadvantage

when everything is so goddamn easy for the Pacers to the point where it's like, I really want the nerds out there to start tracking what I want to call deflations, which is when something miraculous happens for the Knicks in this situation. And then the pacer score on the other end within three seconds. Like their ability to punch back so quickly, it has become such an advantage to the point where there was that huge dramatic play where they get the turnover where Brunson saves it

from out of bounds. And then I think Hart scores on the other end, I think literally with under three seconds, the pacer scored the other way. And the air just completely just dissipated from MSG. It's just like that happened over and over again to where like you can't even build momentum on them because they're just kind of like they're jabbing back so quickly. The one that got me was I think it was like inside the last three minutes of the game.

Tyrese Halliburton pulled down a contested defensive rebound. And again, this is like crunch time, right? It's a single digit game. Incredibly competitive. A guard pulls down a rebound. I don't know how many guards even look up the floor in that moment to really look to press their luck in terms of a long transition outlet. But Pascal Seaccom knows who Tyrese Alliburton is.

He's pushing out. And then all of a sudden this like hard fought, as you're saying, JV, like a possession that the Knicks are like trying to dig out the mud to even get it to work. And then it just is a seamless, easy, free, breezy to go in the other way for Pascal Seacom. I think there's the things that the Pacers make look easy. Like they're kind of movement and the decisions that they trust the role players to make. Those things are not actually that easy. They're just practiced.

And so they get into a rhythm and they know how to do it. But if the Knicks tried to. do it, campaign would be tripping over his own shoelaces. Like, not everyone can play that style. Indiana makes that stuff look easy and then they supplement with plays that like that, that are actually easy if you dare to look for them. Side swipe at campaign. Come on.

He didn't deserve that. I think he did. I think we all know he did. Do we need to give you like two minutes or three minutes here just to talk about Pascal Seacom? I mean, fucking rules. Like, this is a great Seacom game in a very pointed kind of attack, right? is a guy who can, because of his versatility,

get in where he fits in in some of these games, like find his place in a game as it goes. I thought it's really telling that the pace was, like, going right to him out of the gate over and over and over every opportunity. And it looks like Siakum is ready to seize all those opportunities. Just the variety of ways he can score on you is dazzling. And it's something that's very easy to take for granted. And very easy to take for granted when you compare him with someone like Kat, for example,

an immensely talented and skilled big, but doesn't have a lot of kind of do-it-all offensive breadth that he will showcase in like a six-minute span in the way that Siakum can. Because Towns will, in the midst of that, turn the ball over or commit a dumb foul or do something that kind of offsets the value of what someone like Seacom gives to you,

which is heady transition play, great turnaround game in the post. And his ability to, I thought, like, punish the wings and punish the smalls was a critical part of this game for the Pacers. His ability to score on the move, to screen, to hit spot-up shots. Like, he really does do,

everything. And when your best player is Tyreys Halliburton, someone whose best skill is not on ball shot creation like on a whim, ISO, having guys like Siakum, having guys like Andrew Demhard, that's how you get to this position. Like, it's just perfect, complimentary play from your

second best player and then wherever you consider Nemhard, like third or fourth or fifth best player. Yeah, I mean, when that trade was made last year, I think one of the concerns that you might have had is like, oh, Seacom is 30, probably going to be aging into like the tail end of his prime, like how much more is there to tap into his game? He's definitely added at an extra level.

Like, the fact that he's a consistent three-point shooter is just kind of miraculous. It's just like his career starting from defensive, like, wrench you throw into a game just to see a full stick to the guy now who's like swinging the Eastern Conference Finals is pretty remarkable. And so he deserves a lot of love there for that. So what do you do if you're the next now? Like, are you just hoping and praying that Tony Bradley plays 15 minutes in this game? Honestly, he wasn't that bad.

He was better than Thomas Bryant. Which I guess is the bar we're setting here. You just got to hope that Pacers run into some bad shooting luck. And, you know, you're able to steal a couple in Indy because, like, going down 3-1, you're cooked. You're done. You're not beating indie three games in a row. And so, yeah, man, they're going into Indianapolis with their season on the line after having giving away game one and just getting outclassing game two.

A lot of it, I think, has to be that defensive execution. Like the number of breakdowns, the number of miscommunications, unacceptable for this level of competition. Like, you're just not going to compete against a team that's as good as the Pacers. If that's the way you're communicating and that's how badly every defensive exchange seems to be going. Do you want to see more double big at this point? I think the pluses and minuses are like on the one hand,

It seems to be a strength for the Knicks. It seems like controlling the boards has been probably one of their only main advantages to tilt things in their direction. On the other end, does it leave you susceptible to another Seacom game if you're asking more of towns guarding like someone like him? Well, somewhat. But I think Seacom was eating against guys like Josh Hart, guys like Deuce McBride. You know, it's like against the smalls as much as anything. I was actually wondering down that closing stretch when Cat is on the bench and Mitchell Robinson is the only big out there, I get wanting to ride Mitch

He had a positive impact on the game Has had a positive impact on the series I think it was a little bit too long I do think it was probably a little too long I also wonder like Are you married to the idea That Josh Hart has to be on the floor In those moments?

Like why not play Kat and Mitch together During that stretch Because Josh Hart Pacers were not really respecting him They haven't respected his three really all series They've been able to kind of walk the line Because they've put guys like Nemhart on him Who were able to close really well

And force him to put the ball on the floor but I think there's a lot of room to go double big. And frankly, I think we're probably past the point where the Knicks should start that way or change up their starting lineup in some meaningful way. That can be a lost cause with Tibbs sometimes. But they need to at least play it more. I agree. If only because it also perhaps puts heart back into a position where he's more of like a six-man type,

which might ultimately be his best role, not only in this series, but maybe just overall for this team. It's just like there's too much time where it's like the three of him, OG bridges and there's just not enough offensive pop. Yeah. And if you're going with somebody else there, you're sacrificing something else. Obviously, Mitchell Robinson gives you help defensively on the board, but he isn't going to be much of a factor offensively, Deuce a little bit more of a target, although he's held up

pretty well on both ends in the series. And so, yeah, I think double big would be my approach there. But then you're also wondering, how are you balancing the minutes? Like, at that point, are you going six-man rotation? No, I mean, do we still want Deuce in there? Yeah, Deuce is playing, I think, pretty well overall. I'm not mad at the deuce minutes so much as I just think in those situations, if you're making these like big, big to big and offense defense tradeoffs, I still like

what I'm getting from Kat offensively more than I get from Josh Hart's all around game in a game like that where he's not having a profound impact on the pace of play. He's not feeling disruptive to the point that he's taking over the game. He's just a good role player out there. And in that situation, I don't think that's enough. I think you might need more firepower than that. To the point about Hart and just the starting lineup, overall, in the playoffs, the Knicks starters are minus 50 in total plus minus.

In this series, minus 29. So the advantage was supposed to be that the Knicks have that lock solid top five. Unfortunately, not even that has been an advantage. Hasn't really worked out that way. I think, you know, the Pacers 5 play really well together. Their depth has also had a bigger impact on this series than whatever you're getting from the Knicks bench Mitchell Robinson aside in some of these stretches. I think the Ben Shepard thing is mystifying and awesome to see.

Like Ben Shepard has not been very good this season. He's a closer now. He got played out of the rotation. Like for good reason. He just like was not delivering on anything he was supposed to be doing, including defensively. And then Rick Carlisle's like, yeah, so you're going to guard Jalen Brunson now during some critical stretches at these games. You're going to close for us and play crucial fourth quarter minutes. you're going to play 20 minutes over these last two games

and be a plus 22. What the fuck? And I say this is someone who likes Ben Shepard on balance and has liked him previously. He has not been this player over the last couple months and just at the perfect time, the Pacers are calling up Ben Shepard to the front of the line, giving him huge important minutes

and he's delivering beyond any reasonable expectation. We're Carlisle deserve his flowers. He's killing it. Yep. Pushing all the right buttons. Yeah. I'm a little worried, though, that he's going a little bit too deep in his bag.

because I didn't even know that Tony Bradley was on this roster. I thought they had to play Thomas Bryant because he was literally the only center on this team left because of the James Wiseman injury. Obviously, they went out and got him during the season from the heat. But man, Ben Shepard, like, would we be like totally shocked if James Johnson like dusts off whatever skills he's like had dormant for the past five years and all of a sudden just like is thrown haymakers out there? I mean, I think him getting into this series is like if the Pacers closed it out at him, G James Johnson is getting them to the bus. You know, like he's putting his body on the line to protect the team. I want to say this in Tony Bradley's defense.

The sequence in my notes, he's a large man. He is big and like, look, he's not the best like space defender, but he can block some shots. He can be somewhat of an impact player on the glass. Like he has a big body to throw out their opposite Mitchell Robinson. The sequence in my notes was, you simply cannot play Thomas Brian anymore in this series. And then they took Thomas Brian off the floor. And went with Siakum and Obie Toppin as the dual bigs, as they prefer to do. But it was with Mitchell Robinson out there.

And Mitchell Robinson immediately grabbed like four straight offensive rebounds. Like it was just like at the second they took a big body off the floor. He was feasting. And so yeah, then in comes Tony Bradley, a guy who can be picked on certainly more than he was in this game. Offensively, you just like should not guard him whatsoever. Like does not have a threatening ounce of offensive game to him other than maybe the occasional like just straight drop off done. but he made his minutes work. And they need to plug that hole in the dam

so that the rotation can be watertight. And in this game, it was watertight. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not saying it's going to continue to happen. I'm saying if you can steal eight Tony Bradley minutes in a win, we salute you. That's true. Are you upset that you haven't seen Juris Walker yet?

You know, well, he has an X factor. So you got to keep him for just the right moment. That's right. when Ben Shepard can't get it done his 10 minutes just all in the fourth quarter you got to dial up. I like to think Ben Shepard is the honorary

Juris Walker. Like he's taken the mantle of the random Pacers X Factor in the series. Ben Shepard played a lot in last year's playoffs too. He was very important for last year's run up the regular season but like he was like one of their best

shooters, most reliable shooters in last year's playoffs. And if I'm not mistaken, was I think one of our selections for the expansion draft. Facts. You know? We're thriving.

You know, our expansion team here in the playoffs. How many rounds after we took AJ Mitchell, who was like our second pick off the board? In our flavor violation of the fact that you can't draft multiple Thunder players, but you know, who's counting? That's fine. That's fine. It's all for fun, guys. Ben Shepard also indulging in summer stash season.

So he's my brother. I mean, per life. We love to see it. Well, I bring up the starters minutes because I think one of the big questions here is like, how much to believe in this Pacers just come up. There's been a lot of instances on the broadcast where it's like, they've been so good over the second half. And I'm like, first of all,

I don't think you watch a single fucking game of the Pacers in the second half, but someone fed you the staff that they were pretty good in the second half. It's like, but come on me. And they were good. They were good. Although I think the counter would be, so they were 34 and 14 since January 1st,

sixth in that rating. Pretty good, but not like so good that it was like overwhelming. also like there was that jazz team a couple years ago where they were like 26 and nine like the net ratings were off the charts and they I believe they like ended up losing in the first round and so there's like there was evidence but also there was evidence to the counter to suggest that like maybe another Eastern Conference finals run would have been a little over their heads I'm starting to rethink all of this now I'm starting to wonder like how much was this the Pacers hiding in plain sight? versus something a little bit more broader, a little bit more structural that's allowed them to get this far yet again. But what do you mean by the broader structural elements? Well, I think on the one hand, it could just be what I've said in the past,

that they managed to build a well-rounded team and just maximize their potential in the moment in order to just get as far as possible. And things just broke their way where that was enough to get over the top. I think for a long time we were saying, this is a two-team conference, right? All of a sudden, Garland isn't playing for the calves. And it's like, oh, the margins are a little slimmer.

And then, like, the Knicks, it just didn't seem like they were ever able to draw the balance between offense events if they needed, the Celtics lose Jason Tatum. And so, like, there's enough to suggest that, like, oh, maybe the gap between great and just very good is slimmer that we think. And then a team like the Pacers just can take advantage just because things happen and they're there to take advantage. Or we could say, like, oh, this is the start of. a next thing like this they're on the come up they're going to be on the level of the thunder

in the east going forward rob where do you fall in terms of like maybe that i'm not a binary but at the very least like you know like one or the other i mean i think the evidence has been there not just like the big picture record plus net rating type of stuff but just in the pacer's performance over the last few months that this is a very very good team maybe not one that we thought would perform at, you know, a level comparable to say the best of the Cavs in the regular season. Like that high watermark may not have quite been exactly the same, but they presented as a really, really good team that was going to be a tough out for, I think a lot of opponents, the Celtics included.

Like the Pacers would have been a tough out for a lot of different reasons, most of which are stylistic, but also the talent, also the way they can kind of press very specific buttons in terms of how they stress out your defense. All that stuff was going to be there. But I think you're right that some things were offsetting, whether you want to think about in terms of the calves injuries. Then again, the Pacers just kind of waxed those guys over the back part of the series.

They beat the brakes off for the cabs, man. I don't want to hear about injuries. The Cavs got worked. I think the... I don't think a fully healthy Cavs team wins that series. I agree with you. I think the reason the Cavs lost is because the Pacers straight up beat them.

Like, they beat those guys and embarrass them in some contexts. And part of the reason that the margins were what they were because of some of the injuries and because of some of the complications. But I do think Indiana wins that series if they played it back over again healthy. I think that the problems they presented would have been there regardless.

And yeah, maybe you get a better Darius Garland series. Maybe they're a little less reliant on Donovan Mitchell. Ultimately, the Pacers are really good. And I think there's a lot to take away from that success. But as far as models go, being a very good team, believing in that and trying to give yourself a chance, that's basically what every NBA team should be doing as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, like we don't look at their guys as like the top end of the talent distribution in the league. but, you know, they have a bunch of guys who can play,

who, you know, can pass dribble and shoot and actually guard somebody. Like, they play a ton of dudes who do that. And I think there's something to be said for having an identity, actually having a distinct style that is separate from how pretty much every other team in the NBA, they're not some crazy, heavy, oh, let's just do high pick and roll you to death all day long. Like, they have a unique way of playing.

And I think that balances the perception anyway that they're not at the top end talent-wise. And so to me, like, I don't know how you argue with the results. Like the Cavs were the East best team. They looked incredible all year, and the Pacers made those dudes look ordinary. Yep. You know, they made Evan Moby look ordinary.

Donovan Mitchell had his moments or whatever. But Darius Garland was ordinary. Like, the Pacers did that to those guys. Yeah, he did that to those guys. definitely was hurt. The toe thing is definitely like one of those injuries that really hobbles a guy, but I think the cabs

should have shown more than what they did, man. And I don't know. I look at these guys as a contender. I don't know. Like, I'm tired of doubting these guys at a certain point. Yeah, you're kind of circling the other part of this that I wanted to talk about as well, because I think

we're looking bigger picture more about the way teams are built. And I do wonder, as talent starts to rise on some of the more ancillary spots in the roster. If talent is better and more widely distributed, is it actually better to be rock solid and very good at every position, as opposed to making sacrifices at certain positions, like for instance with the Knicks, like you wouldn't say, like the fact that they can't go offense defense with their starting five is that is having just a supercharged, superstar laden offense actually not as potent as

what the pacer's have constructed, which is just well-roundedness across the board. There's kind of this theory kind of floating around there with the NBA nerds of like the weak link era, right? So we base, which is like a good branding of kind of the evolution we've seen of some of the like other spots on the court next to the superstars. I think the warriors were maybe the inflection point where it's like, oh, you actually need to have offensive players at all five positions. That gave way to more of the bum hunting sort of era where Luca and other like ball handlers

were able to pick on the weak link defensively. Now it might be just more widely distributed where it's like you got to play both ways and you actually can't sacrifice a single spot. And so did the Pacers actually stumble upon that quicker than other teams? The Thunder would be probably another team kind of mirroring this idea where it's like, yeah, it's Shea. And he's better than Halliburne,

where everyone would identify on the Pacers. But the fact that they go five deep, seven deep, is actually more an advantage now than it has been in the past. Is there anything to that you think? Absolutely. And the team that immediately comes to mind, an extreme version of this is the first year of the Miami Hedles, where it's Carlos Arroyo, Mike Bibby, Eric Dampier, Dexter Pittman.

Like, I mean, we're talking about the dregs of the NBA at that point. They won 58 games and went to the finals. That shit cannot happen anymore. That's not your roster has to be more well balanced than that. that. And yeah, you could have a superstar. That's nice, but you better have guys at other positions who can contribute because your superstar is just not going to be enough to carry you to dominance, man. And the Pacers just straight up, like you said, doesn't have no weak links. A bunch of guys, again, pass dribbling shoot and guarding people. Even Halliburton, that was

one of the biggest knocks on him that he was a defensive sieve. He stepped up his level of play on that end. I mean, like, you can't argue with, you know, actually having guys that can meaningfully contribute, man. Like, knee Smith's drained six threes in the fourth quarter of game one. Like, bro, the roster up and down has people that can kill you. Nemhard and OT had like an incredible drive, just creating a shot by his freaking self, you know, and we would say he's like the fourth or fifth best play on that team, you know. And so, yeah, I think there is something to having a well-balanced roster. I think there is for sure. I mean, you guys have laid it out really well.

I also think as far as like the Halliburton part of that with his defense, you're right. Like if there is going to be a weak link to attack, it would be Tyreys Halliburton's defense, but he has stepped up in exactly the way you described was. There's also an element of this with guys like Halliburton or guys like Brunson. If you're going to have a weak link, you better be really fucking good at the other stuff. Like you better make it worth our time as a team to cover for you. Because if you're a role player who can't guard or can't. hit a shot, it's just not worth the trouble.

Like, you're not worth the 12 minutes for us to completely reorient the way we rotate or reorient the way we run our offense. Like, you're not worth it. But if you're a Tyrese Halliburton, or I want to give credit to Jalen Brunson in the Celtic series where I thought he really stepped up defensively in that series. And he was not like a pushover one-on-one. He was holding his spot. He was really competitive.

Those guys, if you can have that kind of moment or that kind of series where teams think they can pick on you, but when they try, they have one more turnover than they might like. You force some difficult misses. You make them live with the three point variance on like a step back three where otherwise they might get like a decent shot out of something else. That stuff can ward teams off of that stuff really quickly. Mismatch hunting is very reliant on early success to keep everyone on board with doing it.

Because no one wants to see even if it is your best player, just going one on one every time down the floor. Like it saps all the energy out of a team when you do that and it's not successful. Yeah, I think it's telling that when we're talking about them, even in this conversation before, we're talking team identity, coaching, execution, which is not typically what we would say even last year with the Boston Celtics. There was something just baked into the ideology of how they played. It was more just like big picture thinking like, we'll push the math with three pointers.

Yeah. And then we'll have two A guys in order to dominate. That's identity, you know? To me, that's more structural, whereas I feel like the identity shows up for the Pacers more on individual possessions. It's more like execution in the way that like Denver did two years ago, as opposed to the Celtics, which are just like the, it's more of like a play style, whereas like I feel like maybe pace would be the Pacers thing.

But like a lot of what they're doing is just executing on a high level. And I do think that might play into this whole idea of like having more depth of talent where it's like if also if the math is going to push things so dramatically. I remember at one point last round. Jaylon Williams remarked after they came back. I think it was like in game five, he was just in the walkoff interview. He was like,

oh, a typical swing is 12 points. Like, it was just like a matter of fact. And if that's like just the average swing, the fact that you can execute at a high level actually might matter more than being able to punch your way back into a game. And so I don't know.

Does any of that? I'm kind of just rambling at this point. Does that make sense? It does make sense. I think the death part of this is hard to parse. Because, yeah, one of the great takeaways from these playoffs that a lot of people are talking about right now.

is how much depth is mattering in the contemporary NBA. The fact that you're seeing teams like the Pacers and NICS in such contrast, in terms of Indiana, like, I think there have been nine different guys for the Pacers who have made a real positive impact at some point in these playoffs. 10, if you want to include Tony Bradley.

I leave that to your discretion. And that's keeping in mind, two of their guys that were supposed to be rotation bigs for them are out for the season. Isaiah Jackson, James Wiseman, like maybe James Wiseman never would have worked out for them. James Wise, man. You really just said James Wise. I'm not saying I believe in him.

I'm saying they built their team with the expectation he was going to be a backup big. He would play minutes. Isaiah Jackson we saw in last year's postseason could be a good energy big for them. I like Isaiah Jackson. I do too. But both those guys are out right now. And yet you're still getting nine or 10 guys making real actual impact on these games. That's a scouting success.

That's a developmental success. That's a coaching success. It's hard as fuck to do all of those three things. the same time. Like, you may draft really well, but, you know, your coach doesn't put in the Ben Shepard when it matters. You may draft really well, but you don't give the Andrew Nemhard time to become Andrew Nemhard. Like, you need a uniform approach and a lot of buy-in from a lot of different people to become the Indiana Pacers. And, you know, the Siakum deal, man, like, they deserve their props because I think a lot of people kind of pooed that deal where it's like, all right, he's on the last year of his contract.

you're going to have to give this guy $200-something million. Like, is this dude even worth all of that? But, like, to them, it's like, well, he perfectly suits how and what we want to be. Yeah. And so, yeah, for us, he's absolutely a max player. He's absolutely the type of all-star that we can bet on because he just fits like a glove, man, on both sides of the floor. And so I think that matters, too, like being able to take the kind of risk or gamble on a guy

and being like, look, yeah, we didn't make a Janus trade or Anthony Davis trade or something like that. You know, some of the myriad of blockbuster deals that we've seen back in the days, but we got a guy that's perfect for us. This is the big takeaway for me about the Pacers run and kind of like if we're thinking about what could other teams look at the Pacers and say,

how could we be more like them in some way as far as how we do our business that can make our team better. First round picks are really valuable. And I think in the era, like this apron era, teams are very wary about trading them and just giving them away. They want the salary protection that comes with, you know, young drafted players. Do not let late firsts stand in the way of the trade you need to make. Like there are so many teams who are hanging on to picks that are going to be in the 20s,

that are going to be in the late teens. Trading for Pascal Seacom cost the Pacers, Bruce Brown, Jordan Warra, and three firsts. And you may say, oh, my God, three firsts. When you actually check the label on those three firsts, it was Indies pick in 20204. one of those like worst of multi-conditional picks in 24 so that ended up as the 19th pick in the draft Jacoby Walter the 29th pick

in the draft Isaiah Collier totally fine prospects not changing anybody's world and then Indies pick in 2026 that's top four protected that's all it took to get Pascal Seaccombe and that was a unique situation with Toronto like kind of holding on to Seaccom for too long

ultimately having to settle for that kind of deal they flipped stuff into Brandon Ingram it's a whole thing from a pacer perspective, that is a very reasonable gamble to make with assets that Isaiah Collier, Jacobi Walter, those guys are not changing anything about Indiana's team. But Pascal Seacom changes a lot. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned this because I also wanted to talk more about timelines. Because the one thing that jumps out to me is like a lot of teams that we're talking about have such definitive windows. Like when Tatum goes down, it's like an extreme example, but we're like,

this window's over, right? It just feels like teams are more targeted to one or two years than ever before. This is going to be, what, the seventh team, a new title winner, which is historic. And so I almost wonder if the Pacers, by not necessarily being so precise about when they're going to push the button, because, like, yeah, the Seacom trade was substantial, but it didn't necessarily, like, upend them in a way that, like, they had to win now. Right. They could win two to three years from now when Seacom's still going to be in his early 30s. It just feels like maybe the move is just, like, leave the door open as long as possible. And then, like, if things happen, we could just take advantage of it in the way that Indiana has.

I also wonder how much that trickles into the way teams in the east are going to look at this off season because it does seem like the conference is pretty wide open at this point. We'll see what happens with the cabs. I assume they'll roll things back, just considering some of the injuries that they got it in the postseason. But Celtics are going to be hobbled at the very least. We'll see what, like, version they take on. And after that, I don't know, a couple teams on the come up, maybe. We'll see if Yana sticks with the bucks at least for half a season.

But like, it seems wide open. So why not just be as good as possible in the now? Because it just seems like you could win this whenever the opportunity presents itself. I think also it's important when you have a guy who you make the Halliburton trade. You're like, okay, we got an all-star on our team. Let's lean into his gifts. you know, like, let's take that approach. Instead of being like, oh, hopefully some superstar goes on the market.

Oh, like, we need the number one pick or the number two pick or whatever. It's like, no, like this kid plays a certain kind of way. We need to surround him with people that can elevate that, which I think is also important. I think, you know, even similar to the wolves getting rid of Carl Towns and being like, it don't matter, we're an aunt team. You know what I mean? Like, this is a guy who's made multiple All-Stars, Max contract. It's like, no, we got a young guy.

We're going to lean into Anthony Edwards being the fulcrum of what we do around here. And I think Indy did that in a different, you know, sort of fashion. And so I think they were smart, obviously. They've shown themselves to be smart for doing so. I think there's a lot of ways that other teams in the East right now we're going to be looking at those sorts of propositions with the open field that Justin described. Like the Celtics are not going to be where. they were. We'll see how competitive they are, if at all, how much they want to

tease apart their roster, trade people for picks. I have no idea what they're going to do. We're going to find out. I do think Cleveland has all the more reason now to run it back, more or less with the core of their team. They did not show it against the Pacers, but that Cavs team is good. They're solid. They're talented. I think there's still enough upward mobility with the young players that are within that core to keep pushing forward. So the Cavs you would expect to more or less be there. Obviously, both of these teams, the Knicks and the Pacers are going to be hugely competitive next year. Other than that, it's kind of anybody's game.

It's like the very soft, the very soft middle of an already soft Eastern conference is just like ripe for the taking. If you are the Detroit Pistons, if you're the Orlando Magic, if you are the Chicago Bulls. Well, I was going to maybe, I was going to reach to an even darker place, which is like, I'm not going to tell you, I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Sixers have it all figured out, but like, they might be in the middle by default with the rest of group. I thought you were going to say the Hawks because I have my my short hand of like the power

rankings for the teams that might be able to convince themselves that they have a chance next year. And I kind of think like the Hawks are the prime example of this. What do you do with Tray Young? He's good enough that he gives us an opportunity, but he isn't perfect. And if anything, he maybe just like grates on you. And so like you're constantly looking to trade this type of guy. And yet you can't. And so you almost have to resign yourself to the fact that like, we're pretty good with them. We might as well do the best that we can.

And so, like, could the hawks just, like, add one to two pieces and just actually be pretty spicy next year? Maybe. Depends on how to press the top of. Yes. How spicy is spicy. Jeline Johnson has to play, first of all. Get back.

Get healthy. Yeah. You really just think about, like, outside of those 14 that you talk, that you mentioned, like, like, somebody has. has to be the five through eight seed in this damn conference. Yeah. Like Milwaukee is presumably not going to be there if the stuff with Yannis goes the way it seems to have been going.

I think this is like a huge Orlando moment. They have been waiting for their time. And ostensibly their time was going to be like waiting for the right guy to come available on the trade market. It's a big off season for them. Huge off season for them. And it turns out that like the perfect star or whatever has not necessarily come available yet.

But the east is just thinner and more vulnerable in the middle than it's been. in a long time. And so they really do have an opportunity there to seize if they would care to do it. I think on like the concerning side of these things, like, I almost wonder, like, are you worried that Milwaukee convinces themselves because the East is so wide open? Like they don't trade Janus. If he's not like pushing them to do so. Yeah. But they at the very least going to give this half a season until the trade deadline to like see what we have with the Kevin border generation. By the way, I'm in the record like, I don't know why Janus should be so thirsty to go to a team that has to give up five first round picks or whatever to get them.

Like, is it going to be awesome where if he goes somewhere else? I'm not that convinced about that. Like, I don't, I don't really think there's like some huge downside to just chilling in Milwaukee and trying to figure something out there. I think it is always tough when the teams have to trade a Yannis size pool of stuff

and usually players to get someone like Yannis in the first place. I think there is. fair reason for Janus to look around. I see this as someone who has loved the Janus Milwaukee experience, that relationship, what he's been able to build there. But you look around in an environment where Damian Lillard is going to be out for the foreseeable future. And I just think we'll probably never be the same player ever again, given his injury in his age.

And so, yeah, even a team that has to give up a bunch of first round picks is not Kyle Kuzma, Kevin Porter Jr., Bobby Portis, A.J. Green, Gary Trent, Jr. Those were the starters around Janus in the final game of his season. You're probably right about that. And yet, I can see a path where that team at the very least convinces himself. Yeah, and you know, you never know how much he loves brats and Milwaukee's best. Like, you might actually like being in Milwaukee. Ice cream is pretty good there.

I've had it before. The custard. Let's be real about it. Plus, look, Milwaukee in the summer, the Midwest in the summer, absolutely undefeated. Undefeited. Maybe the six miles here and there. I don't know. The two teams I do want to mention that we kind of breeze past here,

high and low end, Detroit, primed to make just one move in order to like really accelerate things. I do wonder if they're also in position to take advantage of the teams that are so capstrap that they need to dump somebody. I just want to put it out there that Drew Holiday, at least according to the off-brand trade machine that I used before this podcast, Drew Holiday for Toby Harris straight up works. And so like you throw a pick in there and like, okay.

Can I say something insane? Yeah. Does that make the pistons better? Now you're talking my language, Rob Mahoney. I'm just saying like Tobias Harris was pretty important to them and his size is pretty important to them. They need the stretch. They need the stretch.

They need like a combo three four in that spot. And like Drew Holiday has not exactly been covering himself in glory lately. shooting wise and look defensively is what he is and is great no qualms with any of that it's just I'm not sure that transforms their team by the way this conversation is talking me into the east Orlando Detroit

Indy East is back New York Yep Um There's a two week lull and the east is back No I'm saying like Boston can be good next year See that's what I'm thinking

If they get enough like not championship good, but they can be good. And Jalen Brown averaged like 28 points a game and all of that. Like they can be a good team. We will see. Pritchard, Derek White, Jalen Brown, Toby Harris. Come on now. And I guess Kada would probably have to start at center.

is going to be sick next year. We did it. We solved it. Morta, unfortunately. I mean, here's the thing about the Celtics. We're talking a lot about, okay, they could be competitive. Like, what are they going to do with Drew Holiday? for example, there's some parts of that equation

that are out of their control. Like Luke Cornett, who's a very important part of their team, could just be gone. Like, he could just walk out the door. And I believe Al Horford's a free agent too as well, right? He's going to die there. He's going to die on the court. I wouldn't blame him, like a beloved Celtic,

but if another contending team... He's going to die there with his red hat on, man. Oh, whoa. Jesus Christ. Last team I didn't want to mention, this would be the opposite side of things. Toronto, as we kind of mentioned in contrast to what the Pacers did, as clearly just aspired to the middle. Like, will that actually pay off?

Could they ultimately be a toxic succeed because they're just fine? There's just enough okayness packed into this one team that the doors open for them to walk through it. Could they be a sixth seed? I guess it's a possibility. But like, Brandon Ingram is prominently involved in this six seed plan. we're hatching for them right now. Yeah. Can't say I'm into it, guys.

Brandon Ingram and Scotty Barnes trying to make an offense work off of one another? Well, they desperately need offense, period. Like, they need shot making, period. And so I understand some, some of the logic. This is going to be the muddiest offense that you've ever seen in your life, bro. I don't like it.

I don't think it's going to work particularly well. To the extent that they are, firing to the middle, Justin, I think they're probably going to win somewhere in the ballpark of like 35 games. And in the east, maybe that makes you the fourth seat. I don't know. I was going to say, you get home court advantage. So from that perspective, sure. But it depends on, yeah, what your bulls do, what these other teams in the middle do, do the net swing and hit on anybody? Do they wind up with the honest? I don't know. It's, there's a lot to play for, for sure. I think what we've kind of gotten here in our conclusion is to be great. Just be great as soon as

possible. Try hard. Be great. Develop young players. Yep. Trade for Pascal Seaccom. Yes. Or trade him away and then just bring back a bunch of middling.

That's a crazy replacement. I don't see it. I don't see it. I agree with you guys. Insane. Scotty Barnes is good though. Like Scottie Barnes a lot. What he needs is not Brandon Ingram.

We'll see. That's what it's. everybody's mind right now. Will the Toronto Raptors be okay next year? Find out. Squarely in the middle of the zeitgeist of the NBA right now with this Raptors chat. Well you know what? Teams lose by 50 and we have to find things to talk about. We got to do what we got

to do. It is what it is. On a Memorial Day weekend Saturday. Seriously. If you're listening to Raptors talk on a Memorial weekend we simply have no choice but to salute you. Turn this off. Turn on the Seeger. Just going to your garden and just let it rip, baby. Oh, yeah. Crack a logger. Yeah. All right. We'll wrap it there. We'll be back on Wednesday night as per usual.

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