The Ringer NBA Show - Zion vs. LeBron, Bucks vs. Raptors, and the Ben Simmons Injury | Group Chat

Episode Date: February 26, 2020

Giannis Antetokounmpo and the Bucks walked away with a win over Toronto, but who deserves the credit? Zion Williamson faced off against LeBron James in their first matchup and gave us a glimpse into what we can anticipate for the rest of the season from this young Pelicans team. Plus, Ben Simmons's back injury and the tentative timeline for his return to the court. Hosts: Justin Verrier and Chris Ryan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Liz Kelly and welcome to the Ringer Podcast Network. For the next eight weeks, the rewatchables will be covering eight films that are incredibly rewatchable despite having one major flaw. So far, we've covered the movie Higher Learning, and this Wednesday, Bill Simmons, Chris Ryan, and Ryan Rusillo are talking about the 1985 wrestling classic Vision Quest. So make sure and check out the flawed rewatchables on the Rewatchables feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Basketball is very good. Hello and welcome to the Ringer NBA show. This is the group chat. I am Justin Verrier and joining me.

His nerve is never impingeable. It is Chris Ryan. What's up, buddy? I think I might have a better back than Ben Simmons, which is terrifying. That's great. We're definitely going to hit on that. We're definitely going to break our rule about not talking about the Sixers. So if we had some sort of like no workplace hazards in however many days,

calendar going, this would be, we would not have gotten past the day, I think. Yeah, we're shattering it. Yeah, that's great. That's great. So two big games tonight on TNT, first Bucks, Raptors. But we're going to start, I think, probably

with Zion LeBron, the matchup that's bringing us together on this 9 p.m. night at yeah, you and I decided to record this tonight because we were like, well, we could see something historic tonight. And I think I probably learned a little bit more

from the Bucks Raptors game than I did from the Pelicans Lakers game. Although my desire for a Pelicans Lakers playoff series is undeterred. Like I still really, really, really want to see that. No disrespect to the Memphis Grizzlies or the Portland Trail Blazers. Yeah, let's actually start there. Let's start big picture.

We're going to do a little bit differently this time. Chris, what did you learn about tonight? Is there one thing that stood out from you? from both of the games or just from the from the from the from both well i think after the last couple of days with the bucks beating the sixers the bucks now beating the raptors on the second game of a back to back watching the lakers beat the celtics and watching the lakers beat the pelicans albeit at home but doing it in the midst of this undoubtedly emotionally emotionally draining Kobe Bryant Memorial.

I think that we're seeing a little bit of separation at the top. A little bit of tiers of one in both conferences. And this is not to say that that can't change. This is not to say that those two teams don't have their flaws. But I think that I was somebody who was incredibly skeptical about a Mike Buttonholzer team coming down the stretch and what they could do in the postseason. And I was the idiot who was like the Lakers could start 5 and 15 and I wouldn't be surprised.

And clearly these are just the two best teams in the league right now. And tonight just confirmed that, I guess. Yeah, I thought there was a big win for the box. Definitely a big win for Boodenholzer specifically and the Boodenholzer system because I think as the Raptors were putting up threes there early on, I was starting to get a little wary about their whole system kind of allowing those opportunities.

But I think on the Lakers side of things, I thought this was a pretty big win. The Pelicans clearly aren't who they probably will be with a full season of Zion. You could definitely still see some of the seams there. You could definitely still see that team coming together. But they took it to them, especially in the second half. And I thought this was just like a classic LeBron performance where he was just like, no, I'm just going to take over here.

He ends up with 40 points. LeBron is doing a lot of like senior counselor at camp stuff this week. week where it was like the John Morant game, the Jason Tatum game, and now this. And essentially when LeBron was on the floor, the Lakers were probably double digits better than the Pelicans. And when he was off the floor, the Pelicans were right in the game, if not a little bit better than the Lakers. It was kind of like a muted Anthony Davis game, but I thought LeBron was astonishing

tonight. And I've definitely just been watching him this season and just been like, yeah, well, we'll see if he can keep it up. And, you know, I'm surprised he's going this hard. this, and you can kind of see the reason why he's pushing it this season is because I think he does see the window is cracked open

and certainly the flaws in the clippers and the flaws in these other teams have justified that exertion, you know? Chris, did they have red vines when you were in camp? So I think red vines, do you think red vines are a coastal thing? Do you think west coast is more red vines

and east coast is more Twizzlers? I don't know what it is, but I think red vines are trash. That's my take. They're just objectively worse. They taste like kind of bitter, don't they? And they're kind of like, I don't know.

I feel like they taste like socks. They're kind of like paper versions of Twizzler. And now I realize that I grew up in the suburbs. And so like my sugar intake was probably just like way higher than it ever should be because I was like eating gushers like for dinner at some points. But Twizzlers are just like light years better than anything. that red vines can come with, I think. Do you want to give our listeners any context as to why we just pivoted to candy? No, no. I just want to talk about candy. But no, as we were coming on here,

videos started to circulate of LeBron somehow got a hold of red vines on the bench after he's putting a cap to his 40-point night and was just nibbling away, you know? But who among us doesn't like to unwind with a little bit of candy? It's the double standard, man. Nerlins Noel got in so much trouble for eating a hot dog. But LeBron, it's celebrated. It's, it's, it's, it goes viral. Okay, I wanted to ask you a couple of things. One is, how good is this Pelicans team if Brandon Ingram is their best player?

And how good are they of Zion is their best player? And am I just trying to foist the anxiety about who a best player is onto another team besides the Sixers? That's a good question. I don't know of Brandon Ingram is ever going to be their best player anymore. And he had probably statistically a better game than Zion. but there are times where I kind of just like lost track of him. It was a very quiet 34 and 7, which is weird to say.

He definitely acquitted himself against his old team. But it just seems like every time Zion plays well, you know about it. Every time, I mean, it's pretty much a lob dunk. And it's usually he springs above someone for a rebound. Nothing that he does lacks a drama. And so, and I also think like just from a technical standpoint, point, a lot of things that Ingram was getting were coming from Zion and the attention he was, he was kind of drawing here. So for me, like the past couple games in which Zion and

Ingram have played together have really underlined that like anything going forward with this team, it's going to be Zion driven. No? They were seven and three coming into this game in their last 10. And I saw their point differential creeping towards zero, which is better than a bunch of the teams ahead of them, or it has the potential to be a bit better than a bunch of the teams ahead of them very shortly. but it was strange watching them tonight. First of all, just they're really bad defensively, which is it is what it is for a younger team.

And I think part of the reason why they're so bad defensively, though, is there's six or seven or eight different teams over the course of a night. Like, you don't really get the impression that Gentry knows what five he wants out there in any given time. And then there was like kind of, he was getting almost like false results from a line. that had like what was like the one that was Lonzo Reddick Zion, Melly, and I can't remember maybe heart for a little bit there,

but there was one backup unit out there that was killing it. But then as soon as LeBron came back, they were like, we got to break this up. But their crunch time or starting lineup of favors, Lonzo, Zion, Ingram, and Drew still feels like they're getting to know each other and that like that's not their best, the best version of them.

Would you agree with that? Yeah, I think the future is going to be Zion playing five or some version of Zion as the primary big surrounded by shooters, which is why even early on in the preseason, I was starting to say that the future seems to be Zion and Melly playing a lot together just because Mellie can space the floor and still provides another big body, especially against a team like the Lakers who want to go two bigs all the time. But I think you're right. I think they start with favors and they kind of want to stick with that, if only to protect. Zion, but it's clear that Zion is at his best when he's unleashed. I think something that's playing into what you're talking about there is that the pelicans, even though defensively, they're a little scattered at times. And even Drew wasn't much of a factor against LeBron. I mean, he was basically forced to guard Davis and LeBron all night for whatever reason. Right. But I guess the issue there is just who else is going to take that task. Like,

that's probably somewhere where you'd like to see Ingram being able to use his length of, like, a couple times that you be able to guard LeBron in a couple possessions, but Drew is probably the guy who's going to get that assignment, even though he was at a like a significant defensive disadvantage just because LeBron is basically a fucking linebacker at this point.

But I think the big thing for the Pelicans is their offense is so dynamic and they can get down the floor so quickly and they can score so much that they were able to close a gap when it seemed like the Lakers were going to take this away. And they have good passing from almost every position. I thought like

you know, you can, you can feel that, like, in the beginning of the game, it was like Princeton versus Princeton. There were so many backdoor cuts happening. And I thought that was a really aesthetically pleasing game in the beginning, especially coming off, even though I love the, I really enjoyed the Bucks Raptors game. Coming off that Bucks Raptors game that was all limbs and deflections and turnovers and, you know, guys jumping lanes, this was a little bit crisper in the beginning. I just realized something, though.

And I had thought about this when I was listening to Bill and Rosillo on Sunday, where the Lakers beat the Celtics and they talked about Jason Tatum for 20 minutes. We just started talking about Brandon Ingram and Drew Holiday for 10 minutes. Why can't we, are we not giving the Lakers their due? Like, what's our problem?

I guess because they're kind of a fixed commodity at this point, we know that they're good. Like, are they though? Like, aren't they an awesome basketball team? Or is it, I've been trying to figure out, like, is this because they seem to be replicating Cavs vibes? like where it's just like, yeah, sure, bring Dionne Waiters in, whatever, bring

Markief in, bring any veteran who can give them seven minutes while LeBron gets a blow. Like, is that, is that why we're bored by them? Or is it that we just still don't believe it? Like, they, I don't remember the last time I saw the Lakers lose. Well, what more do we need to learn about them in the regular season is probably the big question, right? Do we need to see them be better teams? Yeah, probably. That's probably the one last hurdle we need to see

because they did beat up a lot of bad teams and they are starting to rack up more significant wins. The Celtics one was probably their biggest one in a while. And then this Pelicans game, I think being able to stave off the Zion run was pretty big as well, especially if this is the team they're going to face in the first round. But like, I don't know, they're kind of are what they are. They're Zion, excuse me,

their LeBron and AD are going to be the driving forces. Then you have a lot of guys who are going to fill in around them, basically shooting kickouts, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think that, I mean, tonight was another example where it was Coosma and Boston against Boston. Tonight, Caruso had a real spark plug second half. Crusoe's good.

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that they're able to dial up. I believe it. Like, it's, it's one of those things where, where I feel like I've lived through a couple of L.A. Laker cult heroes, but it's, it's impressive that they are able to get something out of someone else on the team

on a nightly basis. Yeah, I think it's almost like it's diminished because people have turned him into a bit of a meme, but he's like significantly better than some of their bench options. And like, he should be getting a lot of those Rondo minutes. Rondo was over four tonight. It's at the point where I'm like ready to cut bait on Rondo's like all together

and just like put Caruso out there, especially with LeBron pairing those two together. The net ratings on the two of them are just incredible. Do you think that the Chris Haynes announcing that they're going to bring Dion in for an interview or whatever? Was that just like complete agent servicing or is that real? I don't know. I had heard it earlier in the day. It might have been just on a podcast or like somewhere on Twitter before. So I think it's been circulating for a little bit.

But I guess it can't hurt. The weird wrinkle there is I guess Rob Polinka used to be Dion's agent. And so I could see him giving a little bit more of a look than me. maybe other teams. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what Dion is at this point, but I guess if you just need a body just to figure out the regular season, that's fine.

But I can't imagine he'll be playing significant playoff minutes, although he probably thinks he will. So who knows? Yeah, I mean, I guess that would be the Caruso Rondo spot, right? Like, unless Dion is, is what Troy Daniels is right now. Like, I have no idea otherwise what they really need from him. They must think that, like,

getting him in and getting him in the program, like they'll be able to manage whatever off-court stuff there is with waiters that Miami wasn't able to manage. Maybe that's just like not adhering to the Miami Heat Diet or something like that. But I thought it was interesting

that I thought it was only interesting in so much as the Lakers obviously stood pretty much pat with the exception of Marquif at the trade deadline where the clippers added two bodies, the Rockets obviously added a couple of guys, you know,

Zion is, I mean, like, not that that the Pelicans are really in contention, but like, you know what I mean? Like other teams added some different pieces. The Lakers are obviously dealing with the death of Kobe Bryant, and there was like probably like a kind of pall over the front office. Like I didn't really expect them to be able to,

how do you trade somebody in the midst of all that? But, you know, if we're talking about taking advantage of a window being open, of taking advantage of what is shaping up to be a vintage LeBron season, I just wonder whether or not, DM waiters is the best they could have done. D.R. Waders and Markief Morris is the best they could have done.

I know it's all, I know it all comes down to Kuzma, and I know that they, they haven't punted on that yet, but it'll be really fascinating. I mean, everything I, when I, when you listen to NBA podcasts and we listen, if you, if you put yourself through the pain of listening to our own, all we talk about is what happens in the playoffs, quote unquote,

like, oh, in the playoffs, it's going to go like this. Rotations are going to get shorter. Guys are going to play more minutes. It's going to slow down. shots aren't going to be as open and free. But I was kind of thinking about this tonight when I was watching these teams play. And I was thinking about this a lot with the Bucks

because obviously this is the wrap on the Bucks is that their offense is great in a regular season when a team has no time to prepare for it. But that if you give somebody a bunch of looks at them, they can figure it out the way Nick Nurse did last year. But I kind of wonder whether or not when you get a bunch of teams, all of which are really perimeter oriented,

shot happy like that. And they're all kind of playing not the same way, but the kind of overall arc of the NBA is pointed in the same direction. Don't the playoffs have to change at a certain point? So is this an anti-3 argument? It's not even anti-anything argument. It's a maybe we should believe

what we're seeing in the regular season. It's a tough one because while I feel like in a lot, lot of ways Mike Boodenholzer's system kind of acquitted itself. So just to give a little backstory on that. So Bud is very stringent with how he approaches games. The Bucs do what they do and they rarely stray from that. And I think there were times even in last season's playoffs where you could have said, hey, maybe Bud should switch things up. But it seems to be something from the Greg Popovich learnings where you kind of just have this religious almost faith in what you've

established and the system that you've built and you don't really stray from it. And so the Buc's system allows three-pointers and which is why we saw the Raptors tonight in the Bucs win, take a lot of three-pointers and have success with them early on. And now as the game went on, kind of Budd kind of acquitted himself and that system kind of acquitted itself. Though at the same time, so on the one hand, this is a almost a clear example, perhaps one of the better examples of a team sticking to what they do and it working out. But having, said that, I look at the end result and I see the Raptors almost pulling close enough to get back in the game late. And because those three-pointers are available, you would imagine teams will be

able to get back into it easier because obviously, threes are more than two. And thus, teams could probably shoot themselves back into games. And so I'm almost split here where I feel very good about what the Bucks are doing in the regular season and how that carries into the playoffs, but I'm also a little wary that maybe that sort of thing might also still be there undoing. Does that make sense? It does,

and I do think that we are definitely going to see a game, maybe not in the first round against Orlando or whoever, but definitely in like the second round, maybe against a Philly or in Indiana, where early in a series, the bucks get lit on fire. And everybody says, oh, see, they didn't change. They didn't adjust.

He's not ready for the postseason. But I do think, you know, people were talking about it tonight in our Slack. It's like, you know, you don't have a chance to watch every team every night. And I think Graham, Zach Cramm was talking about like, oh, I hadn't gotten a chance really to see the bucks since the trade deadline. Marvin Williams is good. It's a really good pickup for them. and I felt that way watching them. I've watched, I don't know, like 10 bucks games this year,

but they're usually winning by 20, so I turn it off. I was kind of blown away by their depth. And I was not only blown away by their depth, like in a regular season sense, I was like, dude, they've got like way better players than they did last year. Yeah, they're more talented team. And I don't think that they're going to be overly reliant on hoping that they get like a miracle performance out of like a,

I don't know, like a Sterling, what was that kid's named Sterling Brown? Even like a Thon McCur. Like I don't, I don't even know if Thaam McHur played on their playoffs team last year. But like, no, he was on what I'm saying.

Like, yep. Like guys like like, like from last year where you were just like, like, oh, I don't, I don't really think that this dude should be taking a lot of

minutes. And I think we were all really skeptical about the absence of Brogden. But it does feel like they're getting really good stuff out of Devenzo. They're getting really good stuff out of George Hill. I, I feel like they've got. shooting all over the court, and they didn't really get rattled by Toronto's run in the first

half, not unlike the way the Lakers were able to keep their shit together until LeBron got back in the game. And the thing that should scare everybody who watched tonight's Bucks game is Janus was not that good tonight. Yeah, I think DeVincenzo is someone who really jumped off in this game for me. And he had a particularly bad game from the floor. He was only one for six, oh for four from three, but he just brings something that I don't think they had last year. He's just like, he's athletic. He was getting into it with Lowry a little bit after Lowry kind of gave him a hard follow. Villanova alumni meeting. I know. You must have loved that. But like, it was just, it was weird because he gives them some like secondary creation, which I think is important for this

team because they don't have a lot of guys who can create for themselves. This goes back to the original point about a team kind of believing in a team. the system versus perhaps having more talented guys who play isolation ball. So like a guy like Kauai who can break from the system and just hit a bunch of mid-range jumpers, I think the reason why we perhaps don't have as much faith in a team like the Bucks is one, they haven't proven it, right? Last we saw them in the playoffs, they lost. And it really, we had many months to think about how perhaps Yonis didn't have X, Y,

and Z in order to get over the hump. also though it feels like they have talent but they have a very specific type of talent they have guys who shoot threes guys like brick lopez who protect the rim but there aren't those really in between guys and so even still after this really incredible performance i look at the team like the lakers and i'm just like they have an ad in a lebron and the bucks have a yannas and as good as chris middleton has been and perhaps we don't give him his due just like i'm still not like totally sold about that guy just being able to create a shine and kind of pop it off. I was, I wanted to ask you for both of these games, like who you were most impressed by,

who you released impressed by. I was going to say I was most impressed in this Bucks Raptors game by the other two on the Bucks by Middleton and Bledsoe. So Middleton had 22, 8, and 3, Bledhead 17, 7, and 4. They both shot through some rough shooting patches and they both fought through the fact that Toronto can throw five, six live bodies at you. on the perimeter. But what I was thinking about is the exact thing that you're saying.

Okay, so the Lakers, it doesn't matter because it's LeBron and AD and then you can have every bad news bear out there with those guys and you can bring in the Dion Waders' Reclamation projects

and the Ghost of Rondo and Marquif and Dwight Howard can look okay and Caruso can look serviceable. Everybody looks decent with those top two. So they're top heavy. I think that the guys

beneath Bledso and Middleton in the pecking order actually bolster them. So that this year, it's not all going to be on Bledsoe. And you know what? Honestly, if Bledso starts fucking up

in the postseason, like there are a couple of other ball handling options. They're not going to live and die by that. Yeah, right. I think ultimately always comes back down to Janus. And so kind of a mini debate

broke out in the midst of this game, I think because Stan Van Gundy made a point about mid-range jumpers, right? Yes, he, He basically, analytics are to Stan Van Gundy as refs are to Jeff Van Gundy. Although I must say,

I thought Stan Van Gundy was quite good tonight and I really learned a lot, like watching the game. He's already... He's already probably the best color guy in the league. He's very good. He and I Eagle are probably one of my favorite boots already. But I think it's a particularly interesting conversation

in regard to Janus, because while the Bucks play this very specific system, they want to get to the rim, they want to shoot threes, they want to protect the rim over protecting against three-pointers. We all know this at this point. I thought it was interesting that going into the second half, Janus was pretty up front. There's a quote circulating from him now basically saying,

yeah, I want to work on my mid-range jumper just in case I need it in the playoffs. And I think that's a really big acknowledgement that like things break down, things aren't going to go as according to plan. And Janus in particular is going to be the type of guy. and take those shots. And I thought this game, it almost felt like he was using that this as like a test run, like a dry run for that because he was putting up a lot of mid-range shots. And I'm kind of like, that doesn't seem like the type of thing Janus would do. And maybe it was like frustration because he did take a couple frustration shots. And he definitely like went after the ball on defense

when he probably shouldn't have. And the Raptors got an easy bucket as a result of it. But it does seem like that's in his head. And I wonder how that's going to play out. Because on the one hand, yeah, maybe it's better long term for his development and for their success in the playoffs. But it does break away from what they do, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think that the honest thing is going to be fascinating.

It's like, is he, I don't want to say this. And I know that what is going to sound like because it, is he going to feel like a Steve Nash type MVP or is he going to be a LeBron MVP? Does that make sense? It's like, is he going to be somebody where it's like, oh, God, man, that's so exciting. And it was so exciting for those couple of years there

before it's ceilinged out with this team. And then we're kind of gambling on where he winds up on his second team. I know Milwaukee fans, that doesn't sound good to hear. I'm just saying, like, hypothetically. Like, you know, there are lots of players to come through our lives and dominate for a couple of years, but then they just can't get over the hump to win a ring.

I mean, any Charles Barkley fan will tell you that. Right. But I do think that this team is just, like, I want to emphasize how much I was just like, this looks like a different Bucks team. You know, you've brought up the, basically, them surrendering the arc a couple of times. And they do, you know, I do know that they surrender a lot of threes. They surrender the most per game in the league. But one thing I was noticing tonight was they really take the drive out of the drive and kick. So the Raptors were getting a little bit of penetration.

But once they would try and do those, okay, I'm going to jump up in the air and try and find the open guy, or I'm going to wrap my body around a defender and try and find the guy in the corner, that's where all those turnovers were coming, man. It was the kickouts. And they got 19 points off those kickouts.

So I think that their defense can be a little bit deceptive because by looking at the numbers sometimes are like, oh yeah, they're basically saying, we're going to take away layups and free throws. Stan Van Van Gogh was talking about this. We're taking away layups and free throws and we'll live and die by the three. But I actually thought they were making it,

pretty difficult for Toronto to get really good looks up from three. Yeah, I mean, the Raptors ended up taking 52 three-pointers. And while it's probably the way you're going to beat the bucks, I think the only way a team is going to beat the bucks probably now and even in the postseason is to get hot from three. Like the Raptors aren't really built for that. They have three-point shooters. They're good at that and like their system works and all that. But like they were throwing out Matt Thomas, a guy who doesn't play a lot of minutes specifically

to rack up the three-pointers. take advantage of those open opportunities. And it's funny because, like, yeah, they, they hung in the game and I thought the Raptors acquitted themselves as well. But the thing that I come away thinking about them from this game is, like, where's their Kauai? Because although Siakum played, I think Siakum played really well, but at times I was like, like, where are you? You probably need to step up in the situation. And I also look at Lowry, who ended up like, I believe two for 12 for the game. And I'm just like, you need a big Lowry game.

You need someone in order to make something happen because otherwise you're just kind of, you're going to just going to rely on just shooting them from three. I don't know. They didn't have a Janus type of guy to turn to in that situation. My thing I was least impressed by in the Toronto Milwaukee game was the absence of a go-to star on Toronto. And I'm super into Pascal.

I think he's great. He's actually leveled down a little bit after a dip around the holidays, I think. And into the beginning of the new year. And he's had some really good games. It wasn't even that. Didn't it feel like they played 32 guys tonight? Yeah, I mean, they pretty much unloaded their bench.

Right. And I thought that was, you know, it was very exciting. And like, I think Nick Nurse and Mike Buttonholzer really know how to manage minutes and get really creative with lots of different combinations using the entirety of their team, which I bet keeps their locker. room super engaged with the regular season and every night. It's like people are engaged because they know they might get a chance to play even in a national TV game against the second best team in the conference.

Like that must be pretty cool for guys like Davis and Thomas to be able to get in these games. But there was a certain, there were certain times where I was like, dude, play your best five. Like go after these guys and give the ball to see Akum. Yeah. I mean, for all we can say about Janus, perhaps struggling in this one, you look at like the rest of his line and he had 19 rebounds and eight assists and that's just not the type of thing that you're getting from Lowry or someone to just fill in around what everyone else was doing. So let me ask you this. Like we did you, do you feel after this week after,

or after, you know, like since the Sixers game, they survive like a, you know, a weird OT win against Washington, then they beat Toronto on the second night of a back-to-back. in Toronto, with more or less a full-string Toronto minus-Kasol, which I know changes things

and could give Yonna some fits inside or whatever. But ultimately, do you, what would it take for you to say, like, yeah,

I could see the bucks getting beaten the playoffs. Like, what team is there that you think is the challenge? Is it the Celtics? Maybe the Celtics are the most threatening

at this point because if we're saying that the only way to beat the bucks is to beat them from the three-point line, I think the Celtics considering,

they're just like cadre of wings and three-point shooters. I think they're built for that. On the other hand... I can assure you it's not the Sixers. Maybe we should save that one for later. But like, yeah. Well, at least they're not the team that's going to beat them from the three-point line.

I'll tell you that much. Yeah, I have less confidence in the Sixers than perhaps I ever had, which is already pretty low. So that's saying something. No, I think in the East, I think I would be surprised if the box repeat at this point. Yeah.

Because the Raptors, I think the Raptors are going to be able to take a few games off of them just because of the defense, one, and the fact that they just grind on opponents, and I could definitely see them taking off two games where they manage to shut off Janus enough and, you know, it ends up being a closer series than you think. But I just think talent-wise,

I just don't know anyone who has the right type of guys in order to knock them off. And so I think it's the Lakers and maybe the Clippers if they ever get their shit together. Does anyone stand out for you? Yeah, I mean, do you want to talk about the Clippers? Do you want to talk about the way nobody seems to want to challenge the Lakers in the West? Because I'm getting pretty confused about it entirely.

That middle of the conference, the 3, 4, 5, 6, that's really exciting. It's really exciting. Thunder 1 again tonight. You know, I think that like we've seen, I don't like watching them, but I know that the Rockets are really clicking right now. the bottom of that playoff standings, like you're kind of, I think we're all willing

New Orleans into the eighth seed, but it is, you know, I don't know, Brandon Clark going out, Memphis has a tougher schedule. I think that they're going to probably fade a little bit. It's really between Portland and New Orleans. Portland lost tonight.

They really bift it. Can I throw something else out there? Sure. What about the Spurs? What about the zombie spurs just taking advantage of a softer schedule and just like, having the institutional knowledge in order to waltz pass.

So you're rebutting Simmons and Rissillo being like, read a prayer over the spurs. You know, I don't know if I would put it in those terms. Uh-huh. But no, I think there is a chance that the pelicans who still have a lot to figure out. They have so much talent. But I think as you kind of alluded to there, like, they're still throwing out lineups where it's like four guards in Zion Williams.

And I'm just kind of like, all right, cool. maybe that will work. But there's still a lot to be determined where the Spurs, even though talent-wise, they're nowhere close to the Pelicans at this point. And you're kind of relying on Lamarcus Aldrich to just find the fountain of youth like every game he goes out there.

It's just, I don't know, there's just enough there. And I think they're going to be in it more than I think people realize. Are we disrespecting Portland? Probably. I'm sure Blazers Edge will let us know about it. Well, should we bet on the best player

in this race and that best player would probably be Dame, right? Or would you say that the best player is Zion already? I know, I was going to say Zion. I think the best player on Memphis, Portland, San Antonio, New Orleans is Zion already. Probably not. Probably healthy Dame. I mean, he just came off that run where he was putting up like 40 or 50 every game. I'm sure he could just like shoot them past a bunch of different teams. I don't know.

I mean, definitely the combination of a number one guy plus enough around him in support because there are a lot of games where Dame is still looking around. It's like, Mello, save us with this this like this 30 second turnaround jumper that you spend all game trying to accomplish. I don't know. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think that I so desperately want to see Lakers, Pelicans, I so desperately want to see, you know, I would see, I would love to see Clippers Thunder. I really think that that would be absolute fireworks. There's a lot of really tasting matchups. I'm just not sure who's going to get that id seed, man.

I just really can't tell. Yeah, I mean, all the projection systems seem to favor the Pelicans, including 538, which I think factors in individual talents, which is probably why. I mean, the Pelicans roster, as I just said, is just loaded with young guys. It's just a matter of whether they could figure it out. Right.

I mean, I think we need Zion in the playoffs. I think this game showed that. more than anything. This NBA season definitely needs Zion in the playoffs. This NBA season has been weird. It's been, it seems to be, have been consumed with like, meta conversations about the state

of the game from the almost the second the season started. We started talking about whether the regular season is too long, whether we should have a tournament in the middle of the season. The, the rookie class has been Zion and Jav, but after that, like, not that exciting. Right.

I think some of the teams that we were kind of excited about have fizzled out a little bit. There have been some pleasant surprises like the thunder, but I think everything along with Kobe's death, like, you know, the China stuff in the beginning of the year, like these guys, like the NBA could probably

really use like a, hey, we've got at least four games of Zion Williamson versus LeBron James on national television. Yeah, I mean, you could definitely tell how Zion is still adapting to being the guy in the limelight. I think, so Paulo O'Geddy who's going to write about this for

The Ringer tomorrow was telling us, basically, Zion was almost like shy talking about LeBron in shoot around this morning. He kind of like demurred about it and didn't really want to get into it. But it's also like, I think this game in Los Angeles when you're about to play LeBron James for the first time, you're getting spotlight and media attention more than you probably ever have. I mean, he's only playing in what is like 11th, 12th game, I believe it is. And like the, as I could attest to, the media scene in New Orleans isn't like all-consumper.

You're not getting just like requests left and right. You're probably dealing with a couple beatwriters on a day-to-day basis. And I think it's interesting, I think the most interesting wrinkle from this game and perhaps in a playoff series isn't going to be the LeBron and Zion matchup because they didn't really clash a lot in this one, which was disappointing in one hand, but kind of made sense. On another hand, it really came down to Zion versus AD. And now this could be my Pelican slip talking here, though. But I just like I found that completely fascinating because you saw earlier in the game how AD really wanted to take it to him.

And AD has this habit of when he feels like he needs to prove something, especially on national TV. He really goes for it. Carl Anthony Towns is the prime example. Carl Towns used to talk shit to him. And he was billed as kind of like the next successor of the unicorns to AD. And AD took every advantage in order to prove to him that that was not the case. and he was still the top dog. It seemed like Adi really wanted to make a point here

where he's like, yeah, Zion, you're good, but like, I'm still the guy. And while he had success early on, you saw Zion adapt on the fly, which I thought was fascinating. It was basically like AI adapting to the situation. He was like really on some terminator shit. Artificial intelligence, not Alan Iverson.

Right. Well, you never know. But he basically, like, he let a few things by in the first quarter, and then he was only really using his body and his quick feet to get in the way to force Anthony Davis into these like pull up mid-range jumpers, which historically AD is like, that's a shot he can make. But he just got completely off his game and he never really kind of rebounded. And I'm like, I'm just fascinated to see that play out over a couple of the game series. Yeah. Did you have any flashes or do you think David Griffin had any flashes watching this game thinking about he's basically looking at David Robinson and Tim

Duncan out there if Davis had stayed. That would have been nice. So you're saying that Nico Melly isn't going to be the next David Robinson? No, I mean, obviously, like, the Pelicans are set up for 10 years of being a really exciting basketball team, or at least five or whatever. And I think that I actually do think Ingram and Zion complement each other in a lot of ways. And I was very impressed with Lonzo tonight. I thought, I think they have like the makings of just like one of the most exciting.

teams in the league and they're already showing flashes of it. But I was just watching, watching Davis go coast to coast, block a shot, go coast to coast, dribble around three guys and do like a reverse layup. And then watching Zion do very similar type stuff. I was just like, can you imagine these two guys in the same team?

Oh my God. I mean, like, they're probably two of the like five to 10 most talented players like to come into the draft in the past like decade. Yeah. It would be, it's funny that like you never even consider the fact they could have played together.

and like how dynamic that would have been. And you know, it works together too, especially in what Alvin wants to do because like AD is not some plotter. Like he wants to get out on the run. And you could definitely see how he's, he isn't like an accomplished three point shooter,

but you could definitely see how more, he's much more comfortable shooting from three and especially from the corner off kickoffs from LeBron. Having said that, I almost feel like not only is AD better off with LeBron, a guy who can activate him in a way that like, not even Drew Holiday was ever able to do. Watching Zion,

especially in those smaller lineups, get out on the floor with all of these guards and the floor spread, it's like, it's fascinating. And in particular, the way that Zion is able to cover ground on the move in transition

with like a dribble or two is one of the more incredible things I've seen because even he's, he almost like, as you're watching him, he kind of looks like a guard. because he's just so squat and lower the ground. Dude, he looks like John Wall if he hit the Super Mario mushroom.

You know what I mean? Right. It's like two John Walls running down the court. I mean, pre-Achileas John Wall. I always go to John Wall because that was one of the first times when I saw him live really up close. And it would literally be like if you blinked, he was on the other end of the floor with the ball.

And you could see there, like all the guys in, transition were just like, no, no, no, nobody's supposed to get down the floor that fast. And I'm sure people are saying that was Zion, but they're also saying no one who's six, seven, and two 80 is supposed to move down the floor that fast. Right. Yeah, it's just like it, it's the most surprising feats of athleticism because they come almost as if out of nowhere. Like, the one that everything, everyone always talks about is just like how his jump is almost like a double jump. And you saw that when he just like skyed over. over Dwight Howard, who like, yeah, he's in his old age at this point.

The guys on the pelicans weren't ready for him to get that rebound. Right. I think they were all like, okay, I'll start with going back in transition. And then Zion jumps 45 inches in the air, grabs a rebound over Dwight Howard and kicks it back out to Mellie, who was like, how is this ball on our, we still have possession of this ball? The kickout, I think, is the most crazy thing about that. Because, yes, at this point, we know about the athleticism and just the way he kind of

moves people just with his brick body. But then he made like the perfect kickout past the Melly. And it didn't really seem like he broke rhythm. It was very much in step with everything when he's doing. That whole part of his game, he really hasn't even explored yet. And I mean, Jonathan Charks wrote about this before he even got to the NBA when he was at Duke about how his future could be as some sort of point center. And you see it in flashes when he hits guys like that.

But there's a point where like he's going to not only do that, but he's also. probably going to step out and be able to hit some threes, which like... And he's also probably going to be at a point where he's comfortable enough with his body and his game that he's just going to yam on Dwight Howard. Yes. Because he's got that double jump. Like he's got that I came down and as you're coming down, I'm already going back up again. And that's the thing where he does things physically that Donchich does with his court

vision where you're like, oh, like I've never seen anybody sort of see that angle. Zion does that, but like with a bounce. And I just, it's kind of like, you really have to pay attention to it because it will seem like he's, oh, he's going up for rebound. It's like, no, that's the second time he's jumped. He already jumped once.

And now he's jumping again. It's just nuts, man. So great to watch. So let's go game by game here real quick before we transition to Simmons, because I know you're dying to get there. Are you most, from the first game, or excuse me, in the second game,

are you most impressed by Zion? I was most impressed by LeBron. And I'm not trying to be corny. I just think he just scored 40 points on one of the hotter teams in the league. And yeah, I think that his sort of, there are times where you feel like, you know, an older player is kind of passing the torch. He's like lighting dudes on fire with the torch this week. Yeah.

At this point, it's really a two horse race for MVP, which I didn't expect, just considering how well Luca was playing. how well Hardin was or very least he was racking up points. But I think you could make a very hipster take right now that LeBron could even be leading that race. I think the one thing I keep going back to is just the Lakers net rating with only Anthony Davis on the floor, which shows how much LeBron does in order to get Davis in position to how well he's played.

Dude, watch it tonight. Yes. Watch the net rating today when LeBron was off the floor. I think you're right. I think it's, I guess you could throw Luca in there. I think you could make, you know, I'm sure that there's got people out there who have like a binder full of statistics about why Hardin should be considered. But I think you're right. I think it's a two-player race right now.

Yeah. I would probably go with LeBron or Zion for all the mentioned reasons that we mentioned before. I would also maybe throw in Caruso there. Sure. Caruso MVP? Well, you know, most impressed. I'm looking at both. I'm looking at the plus minus

from the game, which we know is fraught, but for our purposes, we'll just go with it. Number one, Alex Caruso, plus 20. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Plus minus is like the caucus voting of NBA stats. Yeah, so I think I was most in the, in the Bucks, like I said, Bucks Raps game, I was most impressed

by Middleton and Bloods so least impressed by the missing Toronto superstar. And in Lakers, Pelicans, I was most impressed by LeBron. Least impressed, I don't know, I guess I would say least impressed by Alvin Gentry's

lack of confidence in like a five or a group of guys that he wants to rely on and just throwing out like, you know, nine dudes, ten dudes, throwing out there for minutes being like, you know, you should, why don't, you know, play Zion an extra six minutes, man, let it rock. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.

I think the two guys I would pinpoint for least impressive from that game, probably AD to a certain extent. He finished six for 21, which is pretty dreadful for him. He ended up with six blocks, but I just thought he got- Why is every AD injury, like, did he just shatter his elbow? Like, you and I have joked about this, or not even joked, but like AD, every time he hits the deck, the announcers are like, oh, and AD is down.

I'm like, what happened? And it's like, he bumped his hand against the backboard. He'll be okay. You know, but his body is such that you're just like, oh, no, oh, no, the whole, the whole house is coming down. Yeah, I don't think I did much that I'm, like, particularly proud of in my short tenure as New Orleans Pelicans Beat Rider. But the one thing I can hang my hat on is I did draw attention to the fact that Anthony Davis has some of the most ridiculous bumps and bruises that he, like, just milks for all of 10 minutes. and then we completely forget about it. That is the story of Anthony Davis.

Right. Yeah, so you were most impressed by AD maybe, and you were least impressed by what in the Lakers, the Lakers Pelicans game? So least impressed by probably AD. So most impressed by Zion and LeBron, least impressed by AD. Okay.

I would throw in Kuzma. Only played 12 minutes here, which is a bit curious. Well, they flipped it. They played him a bunch against Boston, and then Danny Green got his minutes tonight, right? yeah, there's a reason why Danny Green is getting those minutes. And Danny Green is like the perfect compliment to both of those guys, to both LeBron and AD.

But I mean, yeah, I guess they were playing smaller, so you don't want to throw Kuzma out there. I don't know. I just wonder if that's the type of decision to not trade Kuzma at the deadline. Dude, that'll be the thing. I think that no matter what happens, if they go into the playoffs healthy and they get maximum performances out of A.D. and LeBron, but they lose in the playoffs, especially if they lose before they get to the finals,

they will look back and wonder if there was anything they could have done with Kuzma to improve their team at the trade deadline. And, you know, there were a lot mitigating circumstances going on there. But the amount that we've been talking about Kuzma for this as a trade piece this year to not do anything with him and bet on him. And then, you know, there are some games where I'm like, this dude could score 30. And there are some games where I'm like, I don't know. if you can play him in a playoff series.

So that's a pretty high variance. Yeah, I mean, like, the Lakers could ultimately be right here. They don't have many pathways to getting guys like Kuzma into their program in the future unless they want to start trading guys like Danny Green just because as we've talked at Nazim at this point, just like the way their contracts are structured

is just going to be difficult. But I don't know, I just look at them in games like this, I'm just like, I really need more out of you. They won the game. And so maybe this is just like nitpicking at this point. And he played well. against the Celtics, it's just like,

that guy should be among your top five every game out there. Yeah, I would love to have a problem like this as a Sixers fan. I think most teams would love to have a problem like this. Okay. Do you want to just talk about the Sixers?

Um, so, yeah, I mean, I guess so. I, I get really scared about back injuries for these guys.

That's, uh, that's not something that really goes away. I still don't, I think with every Sixers injury, there's a lot of skepticism and questions about when did he get injured? Was he being treated properly?

Because there was like this whole thing with him going in, with Ben Simmons going in and out of the game against the bucks. He didn't play against Brooklyn because he had back stiffness. I'm not sure if he practiced. there was like a Kyle Neubeck wrote a piece that was kind of breaking this down, but he came in, he started against the bucks and he was getting treatment in the time, like when he came off the court, he would come out, get treatment, go back in and then obviously aggravated it against the bucks. They're calling it a nerve impingement. They say that like they'll talk, they'll reevaluate it in two weeks. I'm prepared for him to miss at least the rest of the regular season. I think it's this point I have what would be the equivalent of like a medical degree from the University

of Phoenix considering all the like the more like obscure things that the people just kind of throw out there. Yeah. It's at the point where I think people just make it particularly confusing in order to just like obfuscate what is actually happening. But you're right. So Simmons has a nerve and pinchment in his lower back. He's out for a quote period of time according to the Adrian Wojernowski newser here. He's supposed to be reevaluated in two weeks. He's supposed to be re-evalued in two weeks. But it sounded like in one of the more Wojian, uh, phrasings out there, just like that this isn't going to happen in two weeks. It's just very doubtful. Yeah. I mean, if you saw Zach Lowe in the jump, it was pretty, he was pretty solid about it. You know what I mean? And it's not,

it's not like Ben Simmons like went off to war. I mean, like, we're like, he, we're talking about a guy with a back injury, but I think like, if you watch basketball for a long enough time, like, like you start thinking about guys who have back problems. Like, you just get lots of visions of T-Mack rolling on a pillow on the on the sideline for them for most of his career and I you know I'm not trying to be hysterical but as a Sixers fan I've been taught to be hysterical about injuries so I also have been taught to be pretty pugnacious when it comes to if this guy had a stiff back against Brooklyn did he have to play against Milwaukee you know and this is the same thing you see look on Sixers Twitter there

They're like, if Tobias Harris had a tweaked knee against Milwaukee, why is he playing a February game against Atlanta two nights later? Like, they just, I know they don't want to lose home court advantage. I know, I know they don't want to have like a shitty record and be the sixth seed when they said they were going to the finals. But there is just like, you watched like Janice just playing 29-minute games and he's going to win the MVP. And you're just like, I don't understand why Joel Embed's out there with his finger dangling off his hand. Like, for what, for what reason?

For what reason? This is not about, oh, we want the one seat. Like, it's just mismanagement. And I don't get it. And I've had such a great time watching Simmons this year. I really hope this is not like a big deal. But it's the Sixers, so it probably is. Are you saying that the Sixers have had some medical issues in the past?

Yes. Yes. Now, yeah, no, I'm kind of aligned with you here. I can understand considering how drastic their home road split is that they want to ensure that they'll be on their home court for four of the seven games against, let's say, the Miami Heat, for instance. That's a big deal. Even though I will say just as a caveat to that, like, apparently analytics suggests like your home record isn't indicative who you are in the same way. Your road record isn't indicative of like your true talent in quotations, baseball term, etc. But I get why they would want to push for it.

But like everything you've been saying since the preseason was that we were just so close to making the finals. We almost beat the Raptors. Probably could have beat the box, et cetera, et cetera. And you're really just kind of pushing it in the regular season just for seating. That just seems like completely ridiculous. Yeah, well, part of the reason why they push it in the regular season

is because they can't hold a lead. I mean, this is... you know, during some of those warrior seasons when they were killing everybody on a nightly basis, Steph didn't have to play a lot of fourth quarters. You know, like Clay didn't have to play a lot of fourth quarters. Durant didn't have to play a lot of fourth quarters.

Janus is not having to play a ton of fourth quarters when they're absolutely annihilating teams on a regular basis. Sixers... He's playing fewer minutes than last year, yeah. What? Yeah. He's playing fewer minutes last year.

And the Sixers can't hold a lead against anybody. So it forces Brett to play to play his best players for probably more than he would want. It's not really a load management conversation. It's like, is he injured or not? If he's injured, why is he playing? If it's a back problem and he's Ben Simmons, why are you risking it in 2020?

So if we're looking to dole out the blame here, can I throw out on brand as well? Because I kind of feel like the original sin could perhaps be just devoting so much of your cap to a guy like Al Horford and putting in measures to protect Joel and Bede who, yeah, I get why you would do that

but wouldn't have been a lot better to just like fill out the depth of your lineup and thus ensure like you aren't running Ben Simmons your prize possession into the ground and waiting to watch tonight's Raptors box game. I think the answer is apparently. Yes. Apparently that works.

Apparently it's pretty useful to have like a bunch of like really crafty playmaking, ball handling shooters on your team? Who knew? Sure. It's also like a cruel twist of fate

if this is like it goes back to brand because now Horford has been injected back into the starting lineup and now has to toil away next to Embed even more right after which almost like limits whether or not Embed can have like his Ben Simmons-esque renaissance that Simmons had when Embed was out with his hand injury.

It's like I almost wonder whether or not the necessity to play Horford because they're short, another star, is going to actually mute Embed. But look, I mean, this is like, now I guess we'll get to watch Embed try to, like, be the best player in the world on a nightly basis. So we have that to look forward to.

Is that fun? Do you have fun watching that? Nothing about this Sixers season has been particularly fun. You feel no joy anymore. No, I mean, I do. I enjoy watching them play from time to time. But watching them blow leads. watching them brick threes,

watching Al Horford not nowhere to be, watching him look a step slower than he did last season, which was probably a step slower than he did the season before, as for as much as I respect his game. And watching Tobias and Richardson kind of struggle to find their roles in the team. And also, like, we just don't have Pat Connetton. We don't have Fred Van Vleet. We don't have any of the guys that, like, really matter

during a regular season at least. All those, all those, like, we've been trying to patch together. I don't, I don't like to do the, like,

we thing, but the Sixers have been trying to patch together the Bellanelli, Ily-Iliosova thing year after year after year, to, like, to fill out that bench.

And watching these other teams so smartly put together deep, 10-man depth charts is galling. You're right. You're right. It is on brand. So,

Embed in the three games that he's played since playing for Team LeBron and the All-Star game. 41 minutes in an overtime game. They won. 29 against the bucks, which is nice that they got blown out and he could sit down for a little bit.

36 against the Hawks. The Hawks. That's what you want to see. 24 shots that's got to be close to his season high. I think 26 is a season high. So, yeah, you're going to get a lot of NBeed, and I'm sure Embed loves that. I'm sure he's just like,

he can't wait to put up all these, like, hilarious Instagram, post with these tags that I'm just like fucking just so tired of at this point. You're putting me in such a bad mood before I have to go to bed. I think, okay, the only other thing I want to mention here is I don't think anyone could be in a worse mood than Brett Brown. I think he's kind of lost it. I think he's going off the reserve.

Yeah, man, this is it. This is it. I mean, like, he gave so much to the Sixers franchise. He went through one of the more like scrutinized rebuilding process. that you can go through. And this team is going to get beaten the playoffs and he will lose his job. And that sucks, you know, but look, I mean,

they can't, they really can't sell. Like, they're not going to trade one of Embeder Simmons. So they're going to have to find somebody who says, like, I can fix this. Like, we did an entire podcast about this. We don't have to relitigate it. I feel bad for Brett, but, you know, NBA history is littered with teams that were almost there. Wow, we're already at that point.

This is bleak. I just want to ask Scott Brooks about that. You know what he mean? Yeah, I don't think he's doing much better these days now in Washington. I'm just going to leave us here and then we can get out of here. Brett Brown before I think the Simmons news was confirmed when Simmons was just out and we were still trying to figure out what happens. He was asked how long Ben Simmons would be out.

His response, it's really like how long is a piece of string? Who knows? Great. Chris, who knows? Who knows anything? Brett Brown becoming Russ Cole before our eyes. This is incredible. I can't wait for the rest of this Sixers season. Yeah, we're going to end it there. Thank you for joining us for this edition of group chat after dark for Chris. I hope you enjoyed me bending the knee, Bucks fans. We will see you next time. Thanks for listening.

Basketball is very good. Basketball is very good.