The Sabrina Zohar Show - 101: Chasing Potential And Putting Them On A Pedestal With Silvy Khoucasian

Episode Date: October 11, 2024

Sabrina and Silvy sit down to discuss what can cause the tendency to chase potential in relationships and put partners on pedestals. They offer practical tips for managing these patterns. Silvy, a relationship coach, reflects on her own journey with fearful-avoidant attachment after a long-term relationship, explaining how unresolved childhood trauma led her to project insecurities and set unrealistic standards. She and her husband learned to recognize their vulnerabilities and communicate better, a skill crucial for those in anxious-avoidant dynamics. Sabrina and Silvy emphasize that placing someone on a pedestal, which is linked to attachment wounds, prevents true intimacy by idealizing a partner and avoiding vulnerability. They explain that this behavior can stem from childhood but becomes harmful in adult relationships, blocking authentic connection. To overcome this, look at relationships objectively, understanding your emotional needs, and communicating honestly, ensuring that your attachment style and role in the dynamic align with healthy, balanced intimacy. Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Welcome back Friday, friends. Whoopoop, new episode time. This week we have a very special guest. We have Sylvie, and I'm so excited because I've been a fan of hers for a while, and we talk about something that's very fucking important,

which is chasing potential and putting them on a pedestal, something that I know all of us have done, and it's totally okay because you are a human, and we're going to talk about the chase and what is happening in your body and how we can actually stop this behavior and really give you guys the tools that you need to make real fucking changes in your life. So guys, as always, thank you so much for everything. Thank you, thank you for reviewing this show and rating it. Please, please, guys, just share it with your friends. Let everybody know that you know about this show. That's all I could ask. And please don't forget to leave a rating,

leave a rating and a review. It means so, so much. And thank you guys for the kind words. I do read all of them. If you don't like the show that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion. Just please remember the way that we speak to each other is really fucking important. And I am here to help and to guide, and I'm just so grateful for you guys. Thank you for showing up as you and allowing me to show up as me. And guys, as always, if you need anything, link in the show notes. You can join the course. Me and Masha have a new course coming out for the nervous system in the early stages of dating,

which I'm so fucking amped for. But for now, we've got the foundation course. We've got the breakup course. And guys, anything you need, as always, is here for you because I want to make sure you feel as fucking supported as you need. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Well, hello, Sylvie. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show. I am so excited to have you. I'm so thrilled. I feel like we've just been waiting months and months to have this conversation. Thank you for having me. Right? Yeah. Of course. I am so, so excited. And we're both calling from the

same coast, which is really exciting, my fellow Californian. But for anybody, I always like to start and introduce, if you could introduce yourself, for anybody in our audience who might not be familiar with your amazing work and who you are, just to share a little bit about you and how you kind of came into what you do and all that fun stuff. Yes, so my name is Sylvie Hugasian. I'm Armenian immigrant, moved to the United States when I was four years old with my four family members. And I'm also a relationship coach and writer. And I'm absolutely just obsessed, as I know you are, with this relationship work and really getting that clarity of you know, why I did the things I did in relationships and why I was struggling so much in my

seven years of dating and not just being able to really feel like I could find someone to feel fulfillment with. And I went to, I got my master's degree in psychology, marriage, and family therapy. And I've just been digging away ever since and just learning and educating and working with coaching clients and continuously adding more tools to my tool to be able to really help people understand themselves just as I had to do with my own, my own experiences in dating as well. Oh, I love that. First of all, can I just say, I am so glad I did not try to say your last name. As you said it so beautifully, I was like, I was going to botch that. But I'm curious, like, I always kind of like to ask as well, like in your, of course, whatever you feel comfortable

sharing personally, but in your personal dating journey, you know, obviously like, we all go through it, right? Did you find yourself leaning more towards a bit of anxiety or a little bit more avoidance? Like, how did you see it within yourself manifesting to where you notice like, hey, I want to learn more about this? My tendencies were very much what's known as more fearful avoidant tendencies, which is a newer attachment style that came on the map. And so when I was dating, you know, I got out of a seven-year relationship that was very, very deep, very intense. And I think after that period was when my step really started to come up during dating. And so I would meet some really amazing men. and I just could not find myself being able to take that next step of committing.

And I think a lot of it was because I hadn't really taken the time to understand what I really needed, what would be a good match for me. And so I kept being drawn to partners that were, you know, the whole recreation of the cycle kept happening over and over again. But I also think my standards were unrealistic and it was my way of, I had a lot of avoidant patterns that were arising. And I was expecting. kind of, it's not even so much perfection, but anytime difficult emotions would arise in myself

in the relationship, I would project it as something was wrong with other person rather than being able to really look inward and figure out what the hell was going on in myself. So I had a lot of projection challenges. So I had a lot of anxiety, but also from, it, it manifested more of like my suitcase was always packed and ready, I was ready to bounce as soon as something difficult but arise. And so I didn't give a lot of people really a chance until I started digging into this stuff. Okay. I'm actually really happy that I asked that question that you answered it because we are so used to, though most of the women that we meet are super anxious. And then they always say the avoidant is the terrible person and they're the worst. And it's like they don't, I think a lot of people don't

understand that as first of all, as a woman, you could also be avoidant like it doesn't. But I am curious like to ask something a little bit vulnerable. Like when you were going through these experiences, because the common misconception that we see is like avoidance just don't feel. They don't care. Look, they can just discard me. But I'd be curious, like, can we debunk that for a second? Because I would imagine, like you just said, that you felt anxiety. And I really just want to normalize, I think, the experience that somebody is going through.

And, like, what did you feel? So I think that we can maybe normalize this for other people to know that, like, just because you're anxious outwards doesn't mean that somebody that turns inwards doesn't feel. My spectrum on the attachment map is definitely mostly secure now. But back then, I would say it was a, it was very much a 50-50 split between anxious tendencies and avoidant tendencies, which is the fearful avoidant. I grew up in a very traumatic childhood experience. Parents were descendants of Armenian genocide. So a lot of anxiety, a lot of trauma. And just the moving to America and witnessing my parents going through the losses and the grief that they didn't have the school. skills and tools to navigate. And I was a very sensitive, highly sensitive child, absorbed it all, but really had to shut a lot of it down. I got really repressed. And so during the dating experience, experiences, I had both of the anxiety and the, so the avoidance became a pattern because I had so much anxiety. Whereas, you know, some people when they feel anxiety, they latch on and that that's

more of the anxious attachment patterning. Other people, when the anxiety is really high, escape. So it's another fight, flight, flee response. You know, everyone has different protective mechanisms. And of course, it can be terrifying for anybody that's in a relationship. And, you know, my partner and I have gone through our own journey of how do we work through that. And I'll share more about that. But really, absolutely, there was so much happening internally that I just didn't have, I didn't have the skills. I didn't have the language. I didn't feel safe to, I didn't feel safe to have needs or to express boundaries. So I was like, okay, I guess difficult feelings, I have to leave now.

Rather than when I started to, you know, really work on this with my therapist, and she helped me. I remember I was in the early stage with my current husband. And again, my suitcase was always ready. I was so terrified of, you know, abuse replaying out, trauma replaying out, even though my partner was the kindness, most gentle man, but my brain associated him with all those things. And so I would make threats to leave in the early stages of our

relationship anytime we would get into a big fight. And that was horrible for him. Horrible, horrible for him. And he would, every time that would happen, the feelings of trust and safety would deteriorate slowly. And then I was like, why aren't you, you know, really fully here? And of course he's not. And so that was the first thing that our couple's therapist said is like, Sylvia, you are not allowed to make any more threats in this relationship. And I just gulped. And I just took, he's like instead I want you to really think about you know working through the feelings in this relationship when they arise that doesn't mean you're trapped that doesn't mean you can't leave if god forbid something really horrible happens but you don't make that decision during a conflict moment when your amygdala is completely activated right

it's interesting i used to do that in the same like i can't do this anymore that would be my saying of like i'm done i can't do this anymore and i had the same thing when i met my partner because he's more avoiding He'll just, if you ask him a question, he'll answer. He is, I see sometimes, he'll, like, his eyes will be tearing up and you're like, hey, are you okay? And he's like, all of a sudden, we'll express. And you're like, oh, yeah, you just, you didn't know how to do that. That's, that's okay, right?

Like, that's just being a human. But for me, like, I had that manifest in the same where, like, the second I would see any kind of conflict, I'd be like, that's my father. I'm out. I'm done. Exactly. I mean, I am curious to hear also your, like, how you guys have really been able to, like, come together because I think it is really important for people to know that an anxious

avoidant type dynamic, people with tendencies of it, right? We don't need to self-identify as I'm this, you or that, can still have a beautiful marriage. It just takes different tools to be able to have that. And at least for me, like I learned same thing. When I started dating my partner, well, Ryan and I first got together, it's now been almost two years, I had to tell myself, Sabrina, you're not allowed to say, I'm done, I can't do this, because it's true when you're disregulated and you're like, I just need safety. Of course, safety to me is get me the fuck out of here. but to your partner who's like, wait, and I had said that a couple of times, and he was honest with me, he was like, I don't know that I trust you now. Like, so when we just have something,

you're just going to bolt. And it's like, yeah, I'm still anxious. That was my anxiety manifesting in, oh, just remove myself. I can't handle this. But I am, I'm just, I'm glad you said it. I am curious. I love how I'm so off topic. I want to talk to you about, but this is so, this is so interesting to me. What tools were you able to implement, I guess, in your relationship that helped you with that, like, especially for you dealing as with more of that, like, you know, I want to run. My suitcase is packed. What are things or ways that you were able to like even just stop yourself or anything that we

can give that's tangible for anyone struggling in those moments to be like, I want to bolt, but that might not be the best decision. I think the first thing is really, like the recognition that you're doing in, the recognition and the empathy towards yourself, the compassion towards yourself to recognize that. All of these attachment patterns, they developed for a reason. You know, when I realized that, you know, I was doing that because I was trying to get out of a traumatic situation, which is what my mind thought was happening. You know, as soon as my partner starts to raise his voice even a little bit, my nervous system goes into like, oh my gosh, I'm something really bad is going to happen. And so over time, we've just, we've learned one another's sensitivities.

And, you know, when we're highly anxious or highly avoidantly patterned, I like say tendencies or patterned because like you said, we're not the type. It's very damaging to associate ourselves in that way because we have so many other beautiful parts. They can be very self-protective during conflict moment. So secure attachment functioning in couples is all about being collaborative, finding the win-win, being able to tend to the other exhibiting friendliness. So the skills that we both have developed, and my partner would share his version of this, which he shares publicly and would be fine with me sharing, when he would get, you know, triggered,

he would really lock up in his physicality. And I would see, like, the expression on his face would be gone. And I would, that would terrify me. I was like, oh, my God, he's left the building. And there's my emotional abandonment kicking it, right? And so we both had to just recognize what are the unique things that I, each of us does that is deeply threatening to the other person, but really is only about my self-protection.

So now, you know, when my husband gets activated, he knows to like unfold his arms, start to bring the blood flow back to his face. For me, I mean, I don't, I've never made that threat since that couple's therapy session. But what I'll say is, oh, I want to leave this room like so badly, but I'm not going to because I love you and I'm not going to leave. But I want you to know that I feel really scared.

Or we might sit on the other sides. of the room. Sometimes when we're really in it, he'll sit on the far end and I'll sit on the far end. And we'll have a conversation until we both feel, okay, there's friendliness coming back. You know, there's a willingness to see the other person's perspective and it's not just, we're not just each locked into our own universe because that's what we need to communicate is friendliness, non-threatening, signaling to the other person. And that might mean, you said, you know, that you and I have to take a break for half an hour to get there, right? How do you, How do you signal friendliness when you're feeling that?

For me, personally, I get the heat of wave, you know, where you're just like, whoosh, where you feel the, like, it's almost like the, your blood flow is just like, and we're on. And so I know for me, I have to breathe. And I'm like, okay, Sabrina, like you're, I instantly, the minute I feel the wave and I know myself so well, like my shoulders tense up, like I can feel that manic panic kind of mode. And I'll usually just, by the first thing I'll say is like, I feel really off. And like, I'll just bring it out to the forefront of like, hey, I'm sorry. like I'm feeling really off.

Or like, hey, I, I, for, that what I've learned to do with my partner is disarm him of like, hey, can I share something with you? And making sure that he's in a space. And now he's been doing that to me. Like, we just had like a very small snafu of just, I said something I shouldn't have said. And all he said was like, hey, can I share something with you? He expressed, this is what hurt me. And he did something similar to you.

He was like, this is really hard for me. I don't want to be talking about this right now. But. And then the but came where I was like, okay. And he was like, but I know that we need to do this for our relationship. so I'm really going to try. And so for me back, I said, wow, thank you for sharing that. I know this is really difficult and I want to make sure that I'm listening.

So, like, please tell me what's going on. And then I'll listen first and then I'll respond. And we've just found a balance of being able to like, like you said, to me, it's like there's no right or wrong, right? It's not like, oh, well, I'm right because I do this and you're wrong because you do this. What I've established is, okay, this is what we learned, right? I learned this. He took a minute to figure out where he learned his stuff.

I knew where I learned my things from. And then when you get into a relationship, I think we're so, especially nowadays, right? We see so much stuff on the internet of like, oh, just leave. Just be done, right? Just bolt out. And it's like, sure. I mean, yeah, you could do that. But like how we show up in conflict to me and then the repair is what's so important of do you have the long-terming sustainability.

Because I appreciate that you're being honest and vulnerable, that you're married. And you still have things like this because that's real life. Yes. It's not like there's this one coach I saw and it's like her rules, first of all, are asinine. But in her profile, it says married seven years, zero fights. And it's like, that's your claim to fame of, okay, but how do I, how is that encouraging to me in a relationship to say that you haven't had any conflict?

I just, I just have a really hard time understanding. I mean, there's, there's low intensity style conflicts. I mean, there's definitely different styles, but to not have any kind of arguments or disagreements and I mean it's it's very hard to imagine that there's a lot of authenticity happening in that relationship when that's being said you know couldn't agree more yeah so when you were going in this journey because again I think what I hear so often and especially because I have somebody that has those avoidant tendencies so I'm like ooh yeah yeah come to mama so because I want to learn more so I think the common misconception is that the person that's going

through the avoidant tendencies or the person that's exhibiting like kind of this that that they're just, like a lot of people look at it as like, well, why don't they just understand, like, why aren't they doing the work? Why aren't they understanding why they do this? Why won't they let me in? Why aren't they opening up to me? Like, I'm safe. And it's like, well, usually when I hear that, I'm like, that doesn't seem safe, right? Like, you're kind of like forcing yourself onto somebody. But I am curious, because you obviously knew you had trauma in your childhood. Like, you knew you had traumatic events that took place. But when you were dating and noticing that you were wanting to bolt in the soup picks, did you notice that correlation? Or was it not

until you really started to dive in that you're like, oh, shit, this is why I'm doing that. Yeah, so it's interesting. In my seven-year relationship, I definitely exhibited more anxious patterns. And so this is where it gets, you know, for people that are maybe new that are listening to your audience that are listening, for people that are new to attachment styles that are in your audience listening right now, you know, there's, there's, we have the secure patterning, which we know is people that grew up in more consistent, stable, you know, loving, nurturing, attuned environment.

people with more anxious patternings have that inconsistency, right? That I'm there, I'm not there. The lack of reliability is huge, right? And then the dismissive avoidant patterning is when there isn't emotional engagement or attunement or at least enough of it to really create that expression for the child, that vulnerability for the child, oftentimes were shamed for being vulnerable. But for fearful avoidant tendencies, those are the people that grew up in either traumatic environments, really high conflict,

environments, intergenerational trauma, and there's a lot of the ping ponging between anxious and avoided patterns. So I very much also want to acknowledge that I had a lot of anxious tendencies too. And even in my relationship with my husband, he would identify as having more avoidant patterns than me in a lot of ways. So it's a whole mixed bag that we all identify with. And so what I like to say to people, and I'm going to answer your question after this, is just recognize what are the patterns you have that cling or are intrusive to others in the way you're seeking love? And what are the patterns where you're really running away from intimacy? So the anxiety that's leaning in in these intrusive ways and the avoidance that's pulling away from connection intimacy.

I like to use that framing. It gives us a little bit of a wider map to understand where we we fit in that. And so I had a lot of intellectual awareness, Sabrina, a lot. I've been in therapy for 15 plus years on and off. Again, this was what my schooling was in. But then something happened. When I started dating, I noticed that I was very, very sensitive to the smallest things that would happen. And it was almost like my trauma was like right here now. It had elevated to the point where I couldn't escape it. So every relationship I would kind of get into, including some friendships, it was just right at the surface. And trauma doesn't want to be touched. So even when we have that awareness, it does not want to be touched. We want to avoid. I was diagnosed with PTSD. So avoiding scenarios that remind us of

the thing is one of the symptoms of PTSD. So it just took a lot of courage and nudging from my therapist. I remember she said to me once in a session, she's like, look, you can leave this relationship once you work through this stuff. I just don't recommend you leave before working through this stuff because it was showing up everywhere. And I was like, ah. And my partner, Brian, was again, an angel. in a lot of ways because I feel like his tolerance for my emotionality was really, he had a really high tolerance. He would not get upset by the big emotions or having needs. I remember a month into our relationship,

I even made a request for, you know, I really need that consistency for us to communicate consistently. Would you be able to do like a phone check in, not a check in but a text in the morning? And he was very willing to hear my needs. And I think for me, that taking that risk to kind of start, I'm like, all right, everything else isn't working. Let me just try being open and direct about what I need and see what happens. Let me throw it on the

wall. And it started to show evidence that he was very willing to learn. And it took years. It took a handful of years to really work through those things. And just over time, we just got better and better at managing one another's vulnerabilities. And that's one of the things that I do you know, early on with my work with coaching clients and anyone that's listening is really identifying what your unique vulnerabilities are. Because we all have like two or three that will live with us probably for our entire lifetime and then knowing your partners as well. Understanding your partner has been, it's a struggle.

And I think we're, because it's like we have to understand first, yeah, we need you to understand yourself, right? Like that's a really good step. Obviously if you're single, like, yeah, take that step first. Like that's if you're here. But like you said, you're in a relationship and you're like, okay, so I need to find myself as well as my partner. And it's like, yeah, those are different. My partner and I are doing that. Like we have, we have grown together as a couple in more ways than just like, oh, yeah, you're great

together. It's like, no, we've grown as humans because you have a safe space in order to do that. But it took a minute. What I kind of hear quite often is a lot of people are chasing potential, right? Like, oh, chasing potential and putting people on the pedestal. Now, a lot of people, I was her, right? So like, let me first start off by saying, I was not understanding. the difference between the right potential to chase and the wrong. You know, I saw like, if anybody has watched the movie, Cry Baby. I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it was like, you know, 20 years old. It was like Johnny Depp's first movie.

And he's the gorgeous bad boy. Oh, God, he was like my wet dream as a kid. And he's the bad boy coming up on the motorcycle with the hair and everything. And then he sees the square. And oh, the goody two shoes girl. And of course, they go for each other. They go for each other. And oh, wow, they end up being together, right?

you know, whatever. And so I always thought, oh, potential, right? He could be the bad boy, but he has potential to be a good guy. And I think for me, that really came from a deep root of, like, wanting my dad to be like that, of like, you have the potential to be a great father, but then you're really fucking not. And so always hoping, hoping. And so for me, putting someone on a pedestal allowed me personally to then put myself down. Oh, well, you're better than me. I have my core beliefs. You're a piece of shit. You're fucking idiot. No, you're stupid. Nobody likes you. it's my father's narrative just like in my head on repeat. And so for me to understand the chasing of potential versus understanding like, wait a minute,

no, this person's amazing. They just might need a little bit of guidance or, you know, a little bit of like safety for them to really flourish. But I was curious talking about kind of the chase, right? Like I have personally never met anybody in my experience professionally and personally that has engaged in like this crazy chase of this person that's just nothing that you want them to be all of a sudden making all these changes. But I'm curious as to like what you've seen clinically and in your professional and maybe personal life as to like what really drives that

chase outside of maybe my personal experience. But what have you seen? Such a great question. And I think, you know, when I was doing my, I was prepping for today's interview and I was going through my recollection of the different attachment patternings. And you know, they all relate to the to the pedestal person very differently. And there's a different reason people that have more anxious patternings do it. And I think you said one of them, which is, you know, first of all, if we idealize somebody, then if they're this perfect person, then we're less likely to be hurt by them. You know, that's one. The second one is the way that the caregiver experience in childhood actually was, was they were unavailable, a significant amount

of the time, right? So they were literally like, come to me. I can't reach you. Like, you're not, I'm not feeling that attunement. So I'm constantly in that longing. You know, anxious attachment is all about that longing. And really, we can just live in it and just like put milk all over ourselves and just, you know what I mean? Take a milk bath of longing. And so here's this person who's like right there and they're amazing, right?

So we have no problem seeing the amazingness in them. But we associate that longing with love because that's, again, the familiar, which I know you're so familiar with that. And that dynamic is so difficult to break because we're all trying to create a unique ending. Like if I can just create a different ending with this person that I couldn't create with my dad or couldn't create with my mom, I will feel great. And it's an illusion because we have to get to the wound that lives in ourselves. You know, we have to really work at, let me let myself grieve those unfulfilled needs that I didn't experience as a child and just really surrender as much as I can to those feelings of grief and that that draw to that kind of

unattainable person starts to fade. I don't think it ever fully, fully goes away if I'm, you know, for my experience. There's still a little nudge that can kick in, but with with the awareness and the ability to be more objective and to make those connections and grieving, it's less of a, we know what it is. It's like that, that shiny star that well, okay, I can call it for what it is. But with more avoidant patterning, what's really interesting is their reasoning for doing it is because if I pedestal someone and put them on this high bar or really only idealize certain aspects of them and not the fullness of them, it keeps them at an arm's length distance. So I don't really ever have to be vulnerable. I remember when I was going through, when I wasn't

ready to commit to a relationship and I was dating and I would choose partners, not intentionally, but I would choose people that subconsciously I knew were not actual candidates to be in relationship with. And my God was able to be vulnerable with them. I was like, this feels amazing. I can go so deep. But it was so painful in the end because I'm like, we had to end the relationship. It just was never going to be a long-term match. But I will say that those relationships in many ways did help me because I was able to access parts of myself that I hadn't before. and then I was able to build a higher tolerance for somebody that I could be more committed with. So everything can also be a stepping stone if you utilize that, if you take that time to understand yourself more deeply. So with, you know, people that have more of those avoidant patternings, you know, that idealization and fantasy can be very addicting.

And you can get really stuck being drawn to those people that will never be an actual match for you. And it also is very unfair to the other person because, you know, because we've repressed so many parts of ourselves, we don't want to acknowledge those parts of them because we've blocked those parts in ourselves. So really the work for everybody's integration, really how do I integrate and really embrace all the parts of myself so that I can also embrace all the parts of other people that I'm in a relationship with? Does that make sense? 100%. And as you were talking, I was like, and I'm glad you broke it down as well into like the different tendencies or like the patterns that they that manifest differently right because it's not nothing is just one person does everything i wish you kidding me i mean make life easier but one thing that i as you were

talking that i was noticing i was like okay interesting the anxious more with that anxious patterning put somebody on the pedestal almost in a way like at least for me it was like they can do no wrong so it must all be me and it's that perception of control of like everything is my fault to me actually that was the because my ex i i married my father like it was as textbook you know what i mean And like same dynamics. It was just replaying out. And I have never been more grateful. And this might sound wild that I went through that experience because that rock bottom is what

brought me back up to realize Zohar. No, no, no. You got to do something here. But so as the anxious patterner, by putting them off the pedestal, it allowed me to just attack myself consistently. And like we're all, we're very good at that. But then when I understand even like that avoidant tendencies, I would also imagine that by putting somebody on the pedestal and having them as no flaws, then the same.

second, they have something that makes them a human. You're like, got to go. See ya. You're no longer perfect. O'Revoderchi. Exactly. So well said. My heart goes out. I understand that confusion of, I don't understand. This person came on so strong and they were amazing and everything was great. But then, like, I had one person who wrote it and she's like, I literally said like one thing. It was just something that, yes, she admitted was very harsh. But let's be honest, you're a human. You, what, you say one thing and this person's out. And he was great, great, great. And then she said this thing. And then all of a sudden he said, this is too intense. I can't do this. and was gone.

And she was just so confused. And I was like, well, all I see is like, you were great until you weren't anymore. And you said one thing that challenged him. And based off what she said, I could see the insecurity, it probably nailed right there. So I guess to me, it's like,

it's not as shocking, right? When I see it from the outside, you're like when you understand these perspectives, but on the inside, I totally get how you're like, what the fuck just happened? Totally. Did you ever experience shit like that

when you were dating where you're just like? Well, I would say for me, I was so quickly the one to opt out to protect myself, that I don't have the abandonment wound. I have the intrusive wound. So I'm more afraid of being suffocated than somebody leaving. So if somebody leaves, yes, I will be upset, but that's not the wound that exists inside of me. My wound is more suffocation.

So it's usually, did you get too much or not enough? Too much or not enough? Not enough. Anxious, too much avoidance. And so, yeah, for me staying and really, really, I think the thing that you're really highlighting is really important is that when we have an unintegrated traumatic childhood experience and we are in relationship with someone that's amazing, and if they do something that reminds us of the trauma or the thing that we haven't integrated,

that's where we have the potential to leave if we are not really getting that immense amount of support. So, and that's why we know when I'm working with a lot of people, you know, on breakups And I know this might not be comforting to some people, but I hope it is. But it's like we never really know what's going on with the other person that's leaving. We don't know. It's likely so little. Sometimes it has to do with us. Sometimes it's just a mismatch.

And sometimes oftentimes it's really about their journey, their attachment patterns, their family of origin, you know, mismatch of value. So many things. And I just really encourage people to do their. I know it's so hard to not personalize what's often so not personal. it's so hard to do, you know? Oh, yeah. I was the queen of taking things personally. I actually, well, by the time this episode comes out,

it would have been a few episodes back of why you take things personally. And it was a guy, the story I shared was that this guy, I dated, like, dated, but you know what I mean? Like, we had a good time. We had, like, some fun. I was visiting. I left and he was pursuing it. And I kept being like, hey, you don't, like, you don't have to do this, right?

You don't have to keep up this game unless you really want to do it. But it's not. Like, that's okay. I figured this is what it was. and because I was in California, he was in New York, so it's like, come on, let's call it what it is. And no, no, he wanted to. And I was like, okay.

And so after like a couple of weeks or like three, four weeks of that, of not seeing the actions and the words really aligning, I sent him like, oh, just a vulnerable video. I was like, hey, I know you're at work right now. And like, I didn't know your schedule. So I was like, you watch this whenever you want. And I wanted you to hear my tonality and hear my vulnerability of like, I care about you.

I'd really like to pursue this. But if we're not actually going to be on the same page about it, it's okay, you could just let me know. And I never heard from him again. you know what at that time sure i could have been like what did i do wrong sabrina you were too much but i remember just saying all i said was one thing and that made him run okay so see you later fast forward to two weeks ago i get a text from him this long paragraph i have a sneaking suspicion he was making amends the way he kind of wrote it and i was like because he had some substance abuse

issues and that's totally fine i'm whatever your journey is and he admitted he was like there was you did absolutely nothing wrong he was like i was really immature he was like i got overwhelmed by your vulnerability because I didn't know how to tap into mine. And he was like, I just, I didn't know how to handle this. And I'm so sorry. And I just wanted to, he was like, you might not give a shit about this. And I thanked him. And I was like, thank you for, like, I really appreciate that. Because it is. It's so easy when we chase somebody and we chase somebody and you're like, what's wrong with me? And very rarely is it actually like, I've even framed this to some of my clients. I'm like, okay, you're saying that you're not worthy. You're not deserving.

Right. And then they'll go out on a date and say, oh, I just wasn't feeling it with him. And I'm like, okay, let's flip this, right? Imagine if you heard him say, was I not deserving you or worthy? And all of them are like, oh, my God, no, it had nothing to do with that. And it's like, exactly. Because I feel often when we chase, when we pursue when we want, when we want, when we want, it's just furthering, disconnecting us from ourselves. And we're going after that.

Now, all that to say, I do have a question for you. We know the obvious of like, okay, yeah, like childhood dynamics, yeah. But I'm sure you've heard this. and I hear it all the time of like, no, I had a perfect childhood. No, I don't know where this came from. I have no idea. What are ways or methods that we can help? If it's not so obvious of like, okay, I came from a trauma or some kind of abuse,

for the people that are like, I don't know, I had two loving parents. They're amazing, but I have all this anxiety and I struggle and I'm chasing these unavailable people. How do you normally kind of start to tap into that? When you're working with the Voided Map and not saying that this is everybody, there are some people that genuinely grew up with that, very happy, stable family systems, but a lot of times people that have more avoided patternings have a really hard time accessing their painful memories.

They have a really hard time accessing the difficult family times. Again, their journey is all about repression. Nobody was able to help them regulate their difficult emotions. So helping them to kind of get in touch with that, you know, no childhood is actually perfect. And even, you know, some seemingly small wounds can still show up. But then there's also, you know, In the dating pool, there's also, we talk about there's a lot of, there are a lot of people out there that have a strong avoidant patterns in the dating pool. You know, because there's a recycling of leaving relationship after relationship.

So there is a lot of that available as well. And also our adult experiences absolutely play a role. You know, I've worked with people that have gone through really traumatic divorces, you know, abusive relationships in their adulthood. And they've been in a cult. You know, they've been through all kinds of experiences where, They've lost, you know, a significant person has died in their adult life that they were so deeply close to. And everyone is processing their grief so differently. And I think people that are mysterious and unavailable, there's just something alluring about that.

I think just in the human journey, you know, there's something about capturing the attention to somebody that is this mystical. And I almost think about it. I know this is going to be an interesting analysis. But I also think, you know, from a spiritual, religious landscape, you know, we are now living in the era. And Esther Perel talks about this a lot where we are looking at relationship to experience that sense of enlightenment. And I also sometimes wonder if, you know, pursuing somebody that is always a little bit out there creates that kind of spiritual, otherworldly, mystical dynamic that allows us to access parts of ourselves that. that when we're up close, too close to something doesn't give us that ability to access. So there's just, there's so many possibilities, Sabrina.

I've seen so many different. I have many friends that have gone through. They're like, I don't understand. I've had the most perfect childhood. How did I not see this? And sometimes, you know, when we do grow up in difficult childhoods, we can become really alert to cruel behaviors and we can become really like we can be hyper aware of things. And sometimes when we grew up in those amazing.

child is we can assume other people are just as good, innately good as what we experienced. And it's not always the case. 100%. I've had, and I've definitely had it where like, even something as my new to like, okay, your child was amazing. And I'm like, it was not about villainizing your parents. Your parents are probably legendary and credible. But then when I start to say, okay, well, how did they attune to, you know, how were your parents together? And then usually what I hear is like, oh, they weren't very loving. No, my father would shut down a lot. And it's like, okay, so that's just that's where you learned it from. That's it. It's not about that they're bad people. It's just if I come from a household, which I did, where one of my caregivers is wildly unavailable, has zero

understanding of their emotions. Even my father wasn't a great father figure, but if he had been, right, let's say he was this amazing dad that was very present and very, very affectionate. But when you have an emotion, they're just like, okay, yeah, no, I don't know what to do with this. Yeah, then you're going to, as you get older, you're like, no one taught me how to process this. No one taught me how to man. So of course, that mystical unicorn in the sky, I get to fill in the blanks. I get to say, oh, and I had, like you said earlier, I don't think that it ever fully goes away. I think back on some of those unattainable mystery guys that I was, like, obsessed with when I was in my dating world.

And like, even when I see their photo now, like on Instagram or something, there's a slight part of you that's like, oh. And that's just that part of me that's like, hey, remember me? I still exist. And I'm like, yeah, you do. but the adult is in the room, we don't need to chase after that. You've seen enough to know that that ain't going to lead you

to the results that you would hope that it's going to be and being able to be able to just differentiate. Like, that's a part of me. That's not all of me that's chasing that. But somebody did ask,

and I'm so curious your thoughts on this because my initial was no, but I'm curious. Is it good or bad to idealize someone and put them on a pedestal? Oh my gosh, no. No, no. No, no.

I was like, my initial went no. And I was like, I'm just curious your thoughts. this. No. Idealizing someone doesn't allow us to see them for who they truly are, and it doesn't allow us to embrace all the parts, the parts that we like and the parts that we don't necessarily like, which every relationship is going to have, every person is going to have qualities that are amazing, and they're also going to have qualities that we find challenging and difficult. And, you know, the work with idealization and fantasy, the work, the work, the work

that we have to do is integration. So again, if we grew up in a childhood where we had to almost create this fantasy of a parent because it was difficult, we might be doing that now. And integrating means being able to see the good and the bad, everything. And good and bad, I really hate using those words. The difficult and the not difficult. The things we loved and the things that were and really I challenged you. Even if you grew up in a family system that was amazing, there's still going to be things that you struggled with. And to be honest with yourself, and to be willing to feel and grieve those experiences so that you can make space for the fullness of you,

therefore the fullness of others. Would the chasing also play into like the savior complex? Like can we tap in a little bit of that kind of component here? Because I think I hear that all the fucking time of like, but I can fix him. I can say, but I could be there for him. Why won't he let me in? And I'm like, no, there's something.

Listen, of course, on paper, you meet somebody, even me now, you meet somebody and you're like, you're the heart, right? you're like, oh, I'd love to help you. But I can't force that, right? You have to be open to that. But I think I'd love to learn a little bit more about that savior complex and like how it kind of manifests in this chasing of somebody

that's unattainable or needs quote unquote fixing, even though I don't like to use that word, but just for argument's sake, we'll use it. You said this really beautifully earlier. It's that if we are fixated on savings somebody else, sometimes that's a distraction from our own sense of self. Sometimes we choose someone that has these open wounds because we have open wounds. And we actually really want to work on them.

But if we focus on them, it's like a sideways approach. It's less vulnerable. But we're still feeling the euphoria of working through those things with the other person. It's just not a direct and really helpful approach. Also, I invite people to think about the role they played in their family system. I played very much a caretaker role in my family system. Surprise, surprise. I'm doing the work that I do now.

Really a mystery there. And so I have to be really extra careful to not be hyper-fixated on helping my partner process and helping him make sense of his partner. I'm like, hold on, Sylvie, back the F-off. He's fine. He's told me he's fine. He doesn't need you to do this work. I am going into that role myself because it's so, it's so patterned in my brain.

So recognizing a role that you also played in in childhood. Sometimes a savior could be the caretaker in the family home, the mascot, the person that had to make everyone laugh and make everyone feel good. And other times it can be because if I fix them, save them, I finally get the parent that I never had and that I always wanted. Yeah, that was really beautifully said. It reminds me too of Gene Wilder. I don't know if you watched his documentary. And it was, and like even the therapist or the doctor that was talking saying when his doctor, when his mother's doctor came and told him, you cannot upset your mother. you have to make her laugh, otherwise she'll die.

And it's like, yeah, no wonder he was a bit of a tortured soul for so long, because it's like, that's how he knew. And what a stress, what a weight to carry. And it's like, and even people now are like, there's no doctor should ever have said that to like a 16-year-old boy, but that's where that does, even something minute like that of, okay, well, I can't hurt this person. Yeah, it'll manifest that way.

And isn't that wild? This was, it's fucking crazy. But I had the same similar family system as well of, oh, Sabrina takes care of everything. Let her take care of it. And even my sister used to say, like, I feel safer with Sabrina. Like I know that she can take care of me. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. But then who takes care of me, right?

So it's like, as that savior that I'm having to save everyone else, then my cup is empty. And I'm like, oh, I'm dying. And then realize at the end of the day, I was like, girl, you got to save yourself. Like, I had to go back and take little sab out of those memories and let her know that I'm here for her. that she is supported and loved and I approve of her and I accept her and I validate and I hear her and I'm listening to her and not shaming her or saying, God, here you go again. Jesus, you're always so fucking dramatic. God, you're crazy. Why are you thinking like this? Because then all I'm doing is just reaffirming to her like, see, you still need to be saved.

And like, I don't have the tools to do that. And that's really scary. So, okay, I'll just go save this person because then maybe I'll be okay. How can you tell if someone's doing this to you? How can you tell if someone's putting you on a pedestal? I don't know you've very ever had that I have. And for me, it was, at least personally, it was pretty palpable where I was like, I could do no wrong to you. Like everything I do you're okay with. But have you in your experience seen like how can someone identify if perhaps it's not necessarily like a healthy dynamic for them that's being projected onto them? You know, it's one of those things that I think can take time because the first few dates, the first two to three dates, a person is just super guarded. You know,

they're going to be guarded. Even if they're open and vulnerable, there's still a guard that's normal. You want there to be a guard when you're first getting to know someone. You trust takes time to develop. And so, you know, over time, I think you probably see that more so in like extreme people pleasing tendencies, maybe this inability to want to, you know, speak their truth. And after a while, it's just going to start to feel just really imbalanced. And there's a power dynamic that's just It's not going to feel good. It's not going to feel good. And you surely can call it out. You know, if you're the person that is being pedestal, you can say like, you know, I just want you, you know, you can bring some reassurance that I want you to know that. I got my flaws. I got my stuff going on. I don't want you to put me on. Like I sometimes I feel like, you know, you might think that I'm perfect or have it all together. That's so not the case. And I and you treat me like a normal person. You know, I can handle it. You can tell me if something's bothering you or if there's something going on. The challenge with that is we can't control how somebody is behaving, is coping with their own challenges, right? And all we can do is kind of communicate what we're noticing and see if there's enough change that develops to make the relationship feel fulfilling enough, balanced enough, good enough. And there's always going to be something. There's always going to be something happening in every fucking relationship, everyone. Everyone can have something. And are your nervous systems?

able to get to a point where you can have these open conversations. Can you handle one another's quirks? Can you get to a place where there is authentic, you know, vulnerable communication enough of the time? And we got to be the ones willing to go there first. You know, we have to be willing to be vulnerable and honest and call out the things. And I think that's one of the things I also really appreciate about you, Sabrina, from, you know, just witnessing your work. There's a bold self-expression that I think is so important in healthy relationships. You just, we have to. We have to. be willing to tell the truth about what's important to us, about what we need, about what works, what doesn't work. So then we can genuinely see, is this going to be a person that matches what

I need, right? And let go of everything else. 100% beautifully said. It's like, I hear this every day. Why won't I can't find anyone that accepts me? It's like, well, do you accept yourself? Because if you don't accept yourself, it's going to be really tough. I have to be unapologetically myself sometimes that you're like, hey, I know I'm tough. Like, I'm cognizant of these things. Thank you for staking on. but if I don't, and it's not the cheesy if you don't love yourself. Like, I don't love the saying if you don't love yourself, how the hell can anyone else love you? It's like, no, there's plenty of people that can still love you.

But my mama has always said, if you don't love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people, then you're, then that's when it's like, ooh, if I care more about your version of me than I care about my version of me and like what you see me as, you know, kind of somebody had asked like, what are some practical tools to like take someone off a pedestal? And I would love to hear your thoughts if you have any. and for me, at least for me, it was like, okay, you want to take them off the pedestal. You have to make them a real person. And we have to look at the language that's being used.

I get it every day. Everything was perfect. They're amazing. They're all this. And you're like, whoa, wait, go on, tell the story. And then as I read, I'm like, so they're so perfect, they ignored your text for like three weeks. They're so perfect that they dismissed you and walked out

when you said how you felt. They're so perfect that they said they don't want a relationship. There's a disconnect. It's like, no, no, no, no. So then they're not perfect. Oh, no, no, they were super. consistent. Okay, so they're, okay, consistent means reliable and durable, durable, reliable, and your words and actions aligning, right? Okay, so you're consistent. Well, yeah, they were consistent for two

weeks and then it's like, so then they weren't consistent, right? But I'd love to know if you have any practical tools or anything that can help the audience and the listeners of whether you're in the relationship or in dating, right, of what can you do to take someone off the pedestal? It's a really great question. I think it's very twofold because some people like being put on a, some people like being on a pedestal. Let's just call that for what it is. There are some people that are very arrogant and contemptuous and belittling and actually are very one-upping in the way they approach us, right? So it's like, wait a minute, they've kind of put themselves on the pedestal and now we're kind of relating to that version of them, right? So it's a tricky dance. We can look at it from our

angle and how we tend to pedestal people and also how we get hooked into these patterns. And is there a person in our family system that's familiar to that one upping was that a familiar person. So I think the most important thing, and this is what I think you do really well, and I also do this when I'm working with my coaching clients, is to look at the facts objectively, to look at the situation objectively. So go back to yourself. And this is where, you know, when I'm working with someone in the beginning, helping them to get really clear on what are you really looking for in a relationship? Understand your attachment wounds so that you can understand. understand your attachment needs. So somebody that has more anxious attachment is going to need

more consistency, reliability, warm, open communication, somebody that has more avoiding patterns is going to need someone that's more engaging but in very gentle, non-shaming ways, curiosity, non-blaming, and really looking for what are the qualities you really want to experience in relationships? What's your relationship vision? Really get clear on that because we get hooked into being drawn to people that aren't necessarily even what we want. And I think taking that time to really get clear on what your intention is for being in a romantic relationship and friendship relationship and then doing that objective work. Okay. Yes, this person is on that pedestal. Why am I putting them up there? And do they actually have what I want? Do they have what I am looking for? How do they make

me feel. Not that they're responsible for my feelings, but how do I feel when I'm in relationship with them? How do their behaviors make me feel? And I'm not talking about the kinds, you know, you did an episode with Britt that it was really beautiful. And I listened to that yesterday, where you said, you know, our triggers are our, our responsibility and how somebody behaves. If we look at that objectively, we can, we can just do more digging into. Is this the kind of person I want to be in relationship with? 100%. And 100%. Because at the end of the day,

it's like, when I have my partner, I look and I'm like, how do you handle it when I'm triggered? How do you handle when these things happen? Is it an understanding or are you belittling me or you berating me? And it's like, yeah, the trigger is on me, right? Like, oh, wow, you slammed the door shut. Ooh, that may, or he said no once.

That was like a big trigger for me. There's nothing wrong. He didn't do anything wrong. He just said, no. You're allowed to say no. And I'm running me and my dad. And then when I explained it to him and he was like, wow, thank you so much for sharing that.

Like, that made me understand you a little bit more. what would make you feel better? And I was like, you know, if you say regulate or this versus calm down, and what world does a man tell a woman to calm down and she does it? But just things like that of understanding each other and really being able to get down to like, yeah, is this actually, is it what I want or what I need? Right? Like those are big aspects of a conversation.

Like, I want a lot of things. Yeah. But do I need all of those things? It's so interesting when I was prepping for our podcast last night, there's one thing I circled. And that was it. which is so interesting. I said at the core of it, we're going to want a lot of things, but what do you actually need? What is your nervous system really need? And it's such a counterintuitive experience, you know, for those of us who struggle with insecure attachment patterns,

our self-worth takes a hit, you know, our worthiness takes a hit. And we are, it's kind of natural to pedestal just from that alone. Younger siblings tend to pedestal because, hello, they were always a little behind. I was a younger sibling. My sister was older. So it is also, there's, there's so many contextual things that shape it, good to know, but also always coming back to, is this a person that I feel is respectful towards me? Are they considerate of my feelings? When I share things that are vulnerable for me, are they caring? Are they mindful? Are they consistent enough? Are they warm? Are they curious? And are my of those things? You know, how am I also showing up to balance out if there is any kind of an imbalance. Like, how can I show up in a way that's

more powerful? I think I experienced a little bit of this now that I'm thinking about it with my current husband because I'm a younger sibling. I kind of put him and his work on a pedestal and I felt a little smaller. And I remember at a couple of events, I remember just feeling like really insecure. I'm like, my God, I'm invisible and all the things. And I just let myself feel it. I let myself feel the sadness of it and he also being in a relationship with someone who can be reassuring. Like, that's not, that's not at all the case. I see you as an amazing person. You're my partner. You're my equal. I think also being a woman, you know, we've often in generationally been seen as second class fucking citizens. And we've been treated as that. And women are reclaiming

their power, their, their voices. Men used to take credit for women's work. Of course we felt this imbalance of. So we can go on. on and on Sabrina. There's just, there's just so many contextual things to be aware of to know that it's not, it's not you. There's something that happened that's creating this, this, this, experience for you. And let's get back to the objective, um, experience of what's happening. That was a beautiful note for us to be like, and let's put a pin in this episode. Because we'll do another when we're, we're, when I'm in L.A. too. Yay. Next year. But us, Sylvie, Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your vulnerability and your wisdom.

It has been such a pleasure. And if you could, please plug away. What do you got going on? Where can people find you? It'll all be linked in the show notes, but take it away. Thank you so much, Sabrina. This was so much fun. I would say the first place if anyone is interested in really doing some digging work on themselves

and really learning some solid relationship skills based on their attachment patterns. I'm definitely taking on a few more clients in the next couple of months. And then my Instagram page is where you can find little tidbits and my posts and my writings and all the juicy stuff that I love to keep digging into the relationship space. So those are the two places I would suggest finding me. Perfect. I'll link those both so everybody can. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you again so much for being on. My pleasure. Thank you so much, Sabrina. You're amazing.