The Sabrina Zohar Show - 102: Navigating The Highs And Lows Of Dating And Relationships With Dr. Scott Lyons

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

Dr. Scott Lyons joins Sabrina to discuss the high highs and low lows of dating, focusing on the addiction to drama in relationships. He and Sabrina explore how unresolved trauma can lead to seeking emotionally unavailable partners or chaotic relationships, mirroring past experiences. They highlight how many people are drawn to emotional intensity, mistaking it for love, and how this creates a cycle of self-abandonment, as individuals chase someone else’s emotional rollercoaster instead of staying grounded in themselves. Trauma often causes people to confuse present and past experiences, making it difficult to separate healthy dynamics from old emotional patterns. Scott emphasizes that healing begins when the red flags of chaotic relationships no longer feel attractive. He also introduces the concept of "memory spread," where past emotional triggers amplify reactions in the present, causing unnecessary tension. Sabrina and Scott discuss the importance of co-regulating with a partner, articulating needs before stress builds, and learning to enjoy the calm and stability that healthy love brings. Scott notes that for some, calmness may feel unsafe, as they are habituated to chaos and seek it out to fill their anxiety. Ultimately, Sabrina and Scott both agree that true connection is built on curiosity and communication, and that chasing emotional intensity—like butterflies or drama—keeps individuals from experiencing the deeper, more stable intimacy of a healthy relationship. Get Dr. Scott's book! Addicted to Drama: Healing Dependency on Crisis and Chaos in Yourself and Others Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome, babes. We are in Bonus Tuesday. It's my favorite. I love a bonus episode. And this week we have Dr. Scott Lyons. He is probably one of my favorite humans.

I just, I love him so fucking much. And we're talking about something really, really, really important. And that is the high highs and low lows in dating when we have that push-pull dynamic, that, dare I say it, the drama. Right. We've all been there. And it's okay. But today, Scott and I are going to dissect everything and really, really give you guys the tools that you need. And guys, we hear you. I've listened to the feedback. You want shorter intros. So we're going to get to the fucking point here and get to it. So before we do that, don't forget, rate and review the show. I'll say this every fucking time because it's really, really important for me. It helps us grow. Please share it with a friend. And don't forget to leave a rating. Please be kind in the verbiage that you use. But I respect all of your opinions. And it really, really does mean the world to me. Guys, as always, if you need anything, link in show notes. You can work with me, join the courses. Whatever you do. need. There's some free guides. They are there to help you guys. And as always, thank you, thank you, everyone for showing up. We have another amazing week together, and I'm just so grateful for you guys. So, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we?

Hi, Scott. Hi, my love. I'm so, so, so fucking happy to be here. Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar show. I'm so excited to be here. We just filmed your episode, which was phenomenal. And anyways, before I spoiler alerted for the audience, could you please, for anyone who doesn't know who you are, which is absurd. Could you please introduce yourself and share a little bit about you? Sure. I'm Scott Lyons, also known as Dr. Scott Lyons. Most people don't know that I became a doctor because Scott Lyons.com was already used by a porn star, and I grew up with that battle of wanting to become someone, but that, you know, domain already used. So I went and got a couple degrees. And now I'm Dr. Scott Lyons.

Oh, God, that's incredible. You know. Just to that. Studied a lot of different types of healing modalities, specifically in somatics of body-oriented psychotherapy. Wrote a book called Addicted a Drama. And I'm a serial entrepreneur. I love creating.

I love designing. I love hanging out with you. All of the above. That's why I'm so excited to have you because, like, I think, well, one, I love you. But second of all, I think when I first saw and was talking to the audience of like, let's talk about being addicted to the drama. We started to realize like, wait a minute, I don't think anybody wants to identify with that. Oh, hell no. Right?

So it's like, that's okay. We'll reward this and we will rework this. But I think it's so important for us to really understand because I'm really excited about having your expertise in somatic work. Because I think when we are understanding like, let's talk in general, our audience is mostly daters, right? For anybody in a relationship, we see you. We love you. thank you for being here and you can still learn from anything. And fucking cheers.

Good on you. Good on you. But if not, that's okay. Like wherever you are on your journey. Yeah. Because you can be in a relationship and still be dealing with what we're going to talk about. Oh, yeah. With is like that intense push pull, the hot and cold, the inconsistency.

To me, that's how I see drama. Like when we think of that. Yeah. And I am curious, like, when you even just started to explore all this, was it from personal experience that you were? Oh, yeah. No, I come from a long lineage of those addicted to drama. those who, it was like unnecessary stress. It was like where the emotions and the stories and the voice and the language all was super disproportionate

and what needed to actually be there. It was like, you know, if I were to blow out a birthday candle with a fire hose, that would be my childhood. And then I became a phespian. No, you know, like, right? We became actors. Because what else do we find? do with that. Like I knew how from the beginning of the chaos of my childhood to the abuse to just seeing all of the addicts in my family, what I figured out how to do is how to change an environment.

And I could be on stage in front of thousands of people like I did most nights in my early 20s and I could make them feel what I felt. I could evoke this emotion, this experience. from them, I could leak out of my own body. And what I didn't really recognize until later on is that's great as maybe an actor or performer. It's shit in a relationship. It's shit to be in a room with someone who's either pulling you into their chaos as a means to feel connected or leaking out all of their essence, all of their emotions without any boundary as another way to feel related to. That was really beautifully put. Because I think when we, I know for me, like when I would

think of, I don't have any drama. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't do that. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no. When my sister and I would talk and she would always say, like, I don't know anybody has this many issues in dating, right? And it's like, that's another way to look at it is like, is, are you seeing patterns of, wow, yeah, I date a lot of really amazing, consistent, secure people. It's like, and if not, that's okay. And I think a lot of people look at this as like, I don't know, I just can't find anybody. And it's just, these are all. the people I'm meeting. But I'd be curious if we can go a level deeper. Yeah. I don't think it's just, oh yeah, everybody on the dating app is garbage. It's like, why I'm at my partner? But if we're

seeing that kind of pattern where you're consistently finding yourself like, what is under the hood? Yeah, yeah. I think by the third meth addict I dated, I had to go to myself and go, hmm, what is the common denominator here? And that's me, y'all. That was me. And I had to do a hard left and go, I think this is not what I want in my life, and I'm the only one who gets to choose that. But I also have to recognize, well, I didn't bring them their trauma. I didn't have anything to do with the drugs they chose. I did keep seeking them, even though I purposely was like, I'm never going to do this again. There was something in me like a beacon, a magnetism, towards that other trauma, towards that drama, towards something that wouldn't find peace,

stillness, and ease. And I had to be the one who decide, I think I'm done being the instigator of my own suffering. That is a huge part. Like when we actually have to take accountability of like, I am a part in my own suffering. Yeah. I have been playing this because I have been playing the script in my head over and I've been committing to this part, if you will. Yeah.

That I think, like, I will not try to pretend like. I didn't date these types of things. Okay, right? But I think... We would have dated. Right. Oh, 100%. Oh, if we were on the same team. Yeah, we were on the same team. I remember that. I consistently went for the either being emotionally unavailable or, like, at the time, I didn't even know what that meant. I remember the first time finding out a guy I was dating was emotionally unavailable, calling my mom going, oh my God, this is it. Because everything I was reading, I'm like, that's him, that's him, that's him. But not knowing what to do with that, right? Okay, he's emotionally unavailable. Challenge accepted. Yeah. And I think for me,

growing up in a household where you never knew what was going to happen. Every day was a new adventure, not in a fun way, but in a, is, are we going to get hit? Are we going to be left? Is this person going to be sweet or are they not? So that type of just ingrained understanding that every day is a fight, right? Like I have to survive. Then as an adult, if it was healthy, it's, ew, you're boring. I don't want this. Right? You know, you're healing when boring is sexy. you know, I say that. Like, when the red flags are no longer attractive is when you're healing.

Like, and when you can move past a layer of like, I'm bored and this is okay, you actually get into the nuance and the flavors of relationship, which is so rich and so full of life. But you can't get to it if you're constantly in the cycle of drama, essentially, where it's fights and its intensity and it's story. and it's stories and narratives that you're creating. It's like, you know, I had someone I know who told me they were like, I woke up from a dream where my partner and I got into a fight and I couldn't stop being mad at him for the rest of the day. And I'm like, what? But we do that.

So many of us do that in our waking life too. And those addicted drama can't actually decipher between the narratives we make up around someone and the interpretations we default to. and what's actually here in the present moment. The past is the present for so many of us with trauma and we're enacting it out here and now in this relationship. A hundred percent.

I think my therapist the other day. I have somebody that I have two, of course, I'm very LA. You got to have a fucking team. You have to have multiple. I have five. I need multiple people to check me and tell me that what I'm... There's also a reality.

You know, as a therapist, like, I think there's also this weird fetishization of like, well, the therapist told me this. Oh my God, you cannot weaponize your fucking therapist. It's like, well, but they're not God, right? Like, this person doesn't know everything. They're just, they're coming with their own shit. And they only hear your story and you're part of it.

And if a good therapist is reading between the line, shell, they are there for you, but they're also going, what am I not hearing? Right. And it's like, I, for me, like, so many times where I was like, talk to my therapist of just always, always, always of like, I don't understand. Why is this happening? What's going on? And it's like, yeah, I had a therapist for a minute that, like, never called me out on

anything and would just say, yeah, no, I totally get how tough that is. until I started to have therapists that, like, even with this guy that I was dating, like I remember, he came on so strong. Yeah. Oh my God. It was like, we met at a workout class, and it was just instant, like,

at the minute, I was like, he's the only straight guy in this class, and he was, like, quite a looker to be in. It was a very, like, it was like a sculpt class, so, we're not a lot of guys in there, except, like, the gaze that would come, and so here for that. So instantly, I was on the prize with this guy,

and I went right up to him, and, like, I don't know where this came from. I just went, I was like, oh, the only straight guy in a sculpt class, huh? and he turned around, he's like, so you saw me fucking struggling. And it was just, that was it. It was the minute we connected, chatting, chatting, chatting. And then we were FaceTiming that night because he was in town.

And then we had this incredible date. Oh, my God. And I was calling my mom. I spent three days with this guy and he's leaving town. But like, we want to keep seeing each other. And then, of course, that was the one. And then the minute he left, the behavior started to change and the flip-flop and the hot and cold and the this and the this. And now in my past life, like early 20s, oh, I would have kept that train going until you live.

literally ran me over with it and I had no pulse. But then as I started to kind of go along, I really was tapping into like, well, this doesn't feel good. Like one night being so connected, he was very disorganized. Like one night he would be all over me. And then in the morning it was like he was a different person.

Wow. And it was two days of that. It were three days, three nights, four days. So like it was a weekend of it. And I left in the next morning, I ended it with him. And everyone was shocked because they're like, he's so gorgeous.

How could you do this? And it's like, because I don't like this. dynamic anymore, the up, the down, the high, the low. Oh, they're going to pick me and then you come crashing down. It can. And you can be in a relationship of that. This doesn't mean that you have to be dating, but it's also about being cognizant of like, I don't know that this feels good for me.

And that's a really great fucking place to start. And I am curious because I know you have a somatic practice that is. But can you explain, I think, just a little bit more of like how that one can help us move through these traumas, but really to understand, like, if we have this propensity for the highs and lows and that push-pull, where do you even start with that? Yeah. Well, often, if we're on someone else's roller coaster or even on our own, we have likely self-abandoned ourselves, right? That sort of we are chasing them or we are on their ride.

Can I really quick? Can you explain a little bit further self-abandoning? Because I talk about it all the time, but I would love, like, your perspective clinical for the people listening. Yeah, maybe I'll give an example. This is the way that I'm not. I feel it in my body. So we'll come back to what somatics is, which is like body-oriented psychotherapy. But if you sit on the end of a chair and you reach your hand out, and then you keep extending

your arm out, reaching for someone, and to the point where you no longer can feel the support of the chair underneath you, that's that anxious self-abandonment that's happening. And we do it often for those of us who have an anxious attachment style. That is the somatic experience inside, that you're constantly reaching out past yourself. so self-abandoning, being present, anchored, grounded in yourself in the pursuit. And what that leaves you with is no one is home to even be met or meeting the other person. And so like if you're on someone else's roller coaster, you have likely are not in your body. You're likely not present.

You're not feeling your experience. And the moment you turn around and you go, what am I feeling? Oh shit, I hate this ride. Oh shit. I don't like fucking roller coasters. I don't like amusement parks. And you go, that's the moment. You're back in yourself and you have more power and agency again.

But if we're so used to believing that the only way we will be loved is if we chase it or if we pursue it, then there is no one home to receive that love. And if they leave, then we truly are alone because we're not even hearing ourselves. Oh, that was beautifully fun. I like the chair. I like that analogy of like consistently reaching that you don't even have yourself anymore. No. I used to self-abandon like it was nobody's business. Oh, I'm certified in it. Is that the other? I have so many certificates. That's one of them for sure. That's the doctor. And it was it was like palpable to the point where I like, I just never stopped to be like, hey, this doesn't work for you, Sabrina.

And if you said, let's go out at 10 o'clock at night, okay. Instead of being like, well, wait, but I don't want to go out at 10. That's too late for me. Like, I'm old. I'm in bed by 9. Sorry. The senior citizens have it right. right? Eat early, eat early, dinner, take care of your plans and go to bed early. But that self-abandonment piece, I think, I'm curious to your perspective, because I think a lot of people are scared of, like, how do we differentiate between, like, self-abandonment versus the pendulum swinging and then being too selfish? Yeah. How can we find a balance, I think, between those two, because it is important, right? You want to have, I need to be selfless for my partner to a certain extent,

but then I also need to make sure that my side of the street is clean and taking care of. Yeah. I mean, to me, again, it's an easy, semantic experience. It's like, if I am here and, myself and I'm attuned to myself, it likely means I can also be attuned to you. If I can, if there's a wall and a barrier there where I can't actually feel you, your presence, your breath, your energy, anything, that means that sends a bidirectional connection, which is the essence of relationship where we have literally a fucking bridge between us, where we both can cross,

and where we don't, like, abandon ourselves and where we don't lock up the castle, you know? Yeah. And so if the drawbridge is down from the castle, I can feel you. Like we're in the same room right now, right? Little simple practice. Can we just feel where the breath is moving in our own bodies? Yeah. I appreciate things like that because it even just makes me for a second come back to me.

And I feel you more coming back into yourself. And it makes me more easy to come back into myself because I'm like, okay, there's nothing else we have to do at this moment, but be here in ourselves. And then we might just say, can we share the air? Can we both recognize that we're breathing the same air even as we feel the air moving in ourselves? Okay. It's powerful. Great.

Now we're in some relational connection and we're still in ourself. When we're self-abending or the walls are up, neither of those things are happening. It's interesting. You said something earlier that I had in my head. I'm surprised my brain. I've told Ryan the other day,

I was like, I wish I could have you see my brain. He was like, no. I was like, that's true, valid. his OCD, he would not be able to handle it. But one thing that, like, it was something small, you know, like I was frustrated by something from somebody else. And it was like, he was yesterday. We were at the hotel and it was like the AC was making a noise. And I kept saying it was making a noise. And I was being a little discrediting. You know, it was a little like, I don't hear what you're saying. Ah, you think, you come on. Kind of being like, I think

you're being dramatic. And it's like, he didn't say that, but he was just very like, I don't hear it. I don't hear it. Sure enough, guess who had an impact on their sleep? Yeah. Wasn't just me. But I knew it in my gut. I was like, no, there was something off with this. Like, I'm not going to, I'm not. And at first, it was one of those moments where, like, I shut down, right? When he was saying that, I went into the bathroom and I was like, and I was huffing and pop, you kept hearing all around the room every two seconds. And you can know, he's like, you're regulating over and over.

But what I noticed was in that space that I gave, I created an entire narrative. I'm like, fuck this guy. Right, I started to progress. And I was like, why, don't you fucking discredit me? Don't you dig? And I started to build, build, build. And it was like, but I was cognizant. And I was like, Sabrina, you are villainizing your partner right now.

Yeah, it's good work. We are doing that. And I said, but it's okay, you can take a minute to be quiet, figure out how you'd like to articulate this. He beat me to it. He came in and he was like, I can feel you're really upset right now what's going on. And I said, I feel that I'm being discredited. Beautiful. I feel like this.

I feel like, and we were able to talk. And he said, you know what? I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. That wasn't my intention. I was actually trying to alleviate this. What would make you feel supported? And I said, if you are on my side that when the engineer comes up, you can also say that you hear what I'm talking about, even though you think it's normal. but you hear it.

And he was like, okay, you got it. So when the guy came up, he was like, listen, she hears it, it's happening. Yeah. Things like that of it's okay. Because then after I villainized him and I was like, he wasn't trying to hurt me. Yeah. And oftentimes in the villainization, in the narrative, in the story creation, we are self-abandoning. Because I bet in that moment, it brought you so far from looking underneath the hood of what you're feeling and recognizing that you deserve to have that feeling and to be present with it.

And that's what that sort of drama cycle does. It keeps us from the vulnerability of our own pain that's typically underneath what we can, underneath what's actually here. And oftentimes when we were bent in from other people or no one really met us or saw us, that we don't believe that we deserve to be attended to and attuned to by ourselves, let alone someone else. We think, oh, they didn't see me, they didn't see me. But how much are we even seen ourselves?

and how much can we receive or absorb being seen? I said to you a while ago, I was like, I gave you a compliment and you said, thank you. And I said, I feel you receiving that compliment. That's huge. Like, that's not easy to do, whether it's a compliment or just like love. It's not easy to take and absorb that. And when we can't, we often go, the wall is up and we're not able to absorb it, but I blame the other person for not giving it enough. Yes.

And that's all part of this like drama cycle. You know, another part of the drama cycle is fighting for sensation. You know, drama doesn't make sense because it's about making sensation. And so it's like I had lots of couples I worked with, especially when I was doing my research, that was like, hey, I actually fight because it makes me feel alive in the relationship. I feel like I see the biggest part of their emotions and then I know they love me. And it's like, oh, fuck, hon. And, you know, like, that's not, that's not what we're aiming for here. What if something on a decibel of two, the music we play at a decibel of two,

is something you can dance to, as opposed to cranking it up at a decibel of 10 and going, this is how we can dance. Oh, I love that. Do you watch 90-day fiancé? Okay, that's my track. I'm just not good with reality television. Oh, I love it. Oh, my God, because I love being able to distance myself in it and be like, well, I am.

Not that. Yeah. And there was one couple, and I've, like, mentioned him in the past, but there was this one guy, and it was, it was so obvious that these two were not compatible. Yeah. All he was Italian, all he kept saying was, was, I want threesomes. I want threesomes. And the girl he was dating was like, I don't want those. Now, the issue was when they first started dating, she said, okay to it.

She said it was fine, it was fine. And then, like, a year-in, she was like, I feel like you're disrespecting me, and I want that. And it's like, whoa, whoa, wait, but you, that was the contract you signed that. It's not being disrespectful. He's saying, this is what I want. You said okay to it. And at one point, I think the interview, like they were interviewing him and they said, oh, you know, do you guys think this is working? There's a lot of volatility. You guys are always

fighting to make up. And he smiled and he goes, well, what's the point of being in a relationship if it doesn't keep you alive? I want that. I want to fight. I want because otherwise, well, it'll be boring. What do I want? So that I just know that she's there. Yeah. And it hit me and I was like, oh, there's your trauma showing, bum. Yeah. Because for me, like, to your point earlier, receiving a compliment was really tough for me for so long because as a child that came with my love, my father, you look so beautiful. Seconds later, you're fucking idiot. What the fuck are you do? And you're like, well, wait, but you just said I was, you were proud of me. And now you're calling me all these names. And I was like, so for me, I didn't trust it. Why are you saying

something nice to me? It's only going to come with something else. Which is where it's like, yeah, you want that. I need that. High, high. And this is what I'm used to. I'm used to having to earn love because for me to have to say, wait, I don't have to do anything like you love me as I am. Is that a wild experience? Oh, my God. Holy shit. I, and I, you know where I learned that from? Where?

My mother. Because the other day, I said something to her. And this is now. This is, I've been working with her at helping her for years. And I said, mom, I want you to come visit, blah, blah. And I said, okay, well, I can do this and this. And I said, well, I can do this and this. But Sabrina, I'm useless to you otherwise.

And I said, Mama, why do you need to have a use for me? I said, but you being here is just what I want. And she even stopped and she's like, I'm sorry, that's just the conditioning. She's like, I'm just so used to, I have to provide in order to be useful. Because that's what she learned for my father. Right, narcissism. You completely, he brought her in. And then my father, I will never forget.

He told my mother this to her face when I was there. He said, you don't do anything for me anymore. What the fuck do I need you around for? Oh, my God. That is where, then we wonder why you date people that are like, I have to prove my worth. I have challenge accepted. Let me go further. Let me come closer.

Let me work harder. Well, that's just the dynamic that you knew. Because correct me from wrong, you said you worked with children. When I first started my practice, I used to work with kids. Did you see, like, could you tell especially? Because I can see, sometimes you see the parents and your kid, you're like, oh, that's obvious. But were you able, because especially working with such a young age, were you able to see where they were starting to really, like, create these narratives? A bit, but I also worked with neonates, like freshly out of the womb.

Yeah, like me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But there, you know, there were instances when there was a, like, you know, there was a, kids that would come in and they were so like two and they were so locked down so closed off and um you know other people wanted to just diagnose them like this is this is what is wrong with them and to me it was like they don't yet feel the consistent safety to open up like a flower that was me yeah and consistency the absence of consistency is chaos and we start to look and predict for the next absence of consistency.

And so, like, that's for so many of us when we have, like, one of the examples I actually love to give is, like, I'm going to snap for those who can't see the video. So when we, I start to offer a sound like a snap. And there's a point where it becomes habituation, meaning that it becomes the new normal. Yeah. And then you take the new normal away.

And I just saw you, like, startle. It's because you look for it. Now, if that snap was chaos, that snap was something that isn't love, but it was the consistent for so long and then it's taken away, we build the consistency of it, meaning that we start to look for that snap. That snap is something that's a red flag. Then we start to look for it unintentionally. That is a narcissistic partner. Then we start to look for that because it feels like home. It fills in the gap of that anxiety.

the absence of that snap. It's like the devil you know is better than the w don't. Absolutely. It's like I kind of compared of like, okay, if you're driving down the same dirt road, you're going to know the track.

But then if you have to go down a new one and you're like, I don't know, I don't know what's behind the door? It's like, but what if I told you there was an oasis behind there? Oh, but how long is it going to take me to get there? It's totally normal. Like I love that because it's like,

is it like a cognitive bias, right? When you're like, if you're looking for a car, right? And you're like, I want a red car. Then all of a sudden you see a red car. Yeah. Everywhere you look, because it's like if I'm looking for it, and I think this is part of my, like, where sometimes we seek it or create it. Creating it.

You know, and like, you know, as someone who's self-identified as an addicted drama, it's like, if the chaos wasn't there, I would start to feel bored or anxious because I would go, oh, I mean, in the ideal world, we would all just calm down and settle and regulate. But for so many of us, calm, settled, ease, peace, is actually dangerous because you're not prepared for the next potential threat or chaos. And so you go seek it or you go create it to satisfy that anxiety and go, aha, here it is. There it is. That's why I should always be on the alert and protected and ready. I remember one of my first clients. Like when I first started helping anybody with dating.

And bless her. Bless her. I hope she's often to greener pastors. But it was very much that. I'm healed and I've done all this and I've done all this. And I was like, very clear as we started to work where I was like, okay, there's a lot of work to be done, right? And she was, she, to her credit, such a trooper, like always took the feedback, never tried to too far. But I remember she was dating this guy. They dated for probably like, maybe two months total. Yeah.

And it was like, within a week they were in a relationship. And you're like, Jesus fucking Christ. Like, I could already tell. And it was literally like every, talk about hypervigilant. Every other day I'd be getting a message of like, no, he did this and he did this. And I'm telling you. And I'd stop and be like, yo, dude, are you one going to take any account? for your part in this. And it was something so minute of like, well, I told him I wanted to come after,

like, he got home from work at five, and I had been home all day, and I told him I want to come by that night. And he told me, maybe, and like, what the fuck I wanted to come by that night? Like, why the fuck didn't you? And she started creating this whole thing. And I was like, okay, so let me ask you a question. He's not allowed to say no. He's not allowed to say, I'm exhausted from work. I don't want to see you tonight. I've seen you three other nights this week. And I kept stopping. And she was like, oh, you're right. I guess I'm not respecting his needs. And I was like, no, you're creating issues. And then sure enough, the month and a half go by. And he finally came to him was like, I can't do like nothing I do is enough. It's exhausting. And then sure enough

right after, this guy fucked me over and he lied to me. And I was like, you're in your bubble of I haven't done anything wrong. It's all everybody else that's doing it to me. And like, hey, that's okay. I'll meet you where you're at. But that to me is the creation of the Tasmanian devil. That's starting the. Yes. The drama, the chaos, the crisis, the issues. Yeah. The shit flying everywhere. It's fine, yeah. And then, like, when I brought her that, she would always say, you're right, and you're right, and you're right. And it's like, that's okay. I'm not trying to be right.

It has nothing to do with validating that. It's like, but maybe we can look internally and say, yeah, what happens in my body when this person's inconsistent? Okay, have I felt that before? Yeah. Oh, yeah, when my father used to do that. Yeah. Tada. But I'm curious to learn more about the semantic practices that you've created.

Yeah. How does that play in? Like, when do you use them? and if we can teach, because like I'm all about tools, if we can give something to folks that are helping, because I know a lot of people are like, you know, we hear all that, I don't want drama. Yeah.

Right? I don't do that. It's not me. It's never me. But if we're having somebody that's like, oh, shit, maybe I do have a lot of chaos in my life. Yeah. Where do they start?

Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite practices is, so it has to do with understanding memory spread or associated memory spread. So basically it's like, if I'm in a relationship with someone and I, they're late for five minutes. Okay. maybe it's not a big deal.

Maybe I have values around time. But every time someone has been late in my life activates. It's like all the light bulbs of those memories start to turn on. And so not only you filled with the emotion of the past, but you're actually flooded with it. And so one of the things to recognize is in any given moment is like if you're at a decibel of seven, an emotional response. and or like and you hear the narrative and you feel the giant activation one of the things to do is to go how many other light bulbs are turned on right now how many other memories are being activated in my body that I'm not aware of and just take a guess you don't actually have to know and just imagine dimming the lights of the of the light bulbs behind you so that you can be with what's actually here in front of you

And that usually deescalates it enough to be like, I'm back in my body. Okay, it's just five minutes. Or I get to say, you know, five minutes makes me a little anxious. And I'm going to share that with them without like making them at fault. Right. Say, hey, I know you're working hard to get here on time. There's probably traffic. And I just wanted to share with you because I trust you to hear me and know that you don't have to do anything.

is like sometimes I feel anxious around time. And that's a part of something I'm really exploring right now. And all of a sudden you're in relationship with each other, which doesn't happen when you're flooded from the past. 100%. And like I hear that. And like Ryan kind of said something to me earlier. He was like, you waste a piece.

Like when we first were dating, he was like you waste someone's light or you waste someone's time, you waste a part of their life. And so he's very like, and I learned that of like he feels disrespected. If I might have wait 10 minutes, you know, even if it's like, hey, on my way. It doesn't matter. It's like this person's there on time. And it's true. It's like, it didn't have to mean that I was wrong. It wasn't like, I'm a bad person. But it's, okay,

well, there's an action that I'm doing that is causing a reaction to you. And if I care and I want to work through this with you, then it's important for me to put my shit aside and my ego and say, okay, I'm listening. Tell me more. Or how did this impact you? Or what did it make you feel? Or, okay, what do you need for me? Yeah. Yes. And that's the responsible partner. But we also have to do our own work of going in any given moment, 99% chance that you are being flooded from the past into the present. Every time you see the color green, in this moment right now, look around the room. If you see the color green, every other moment in your light that you have seen green is flooding this moment and affecting your perception of how you're seeing it and experiencing it in this moment.

Take a pause. Turn out the lights behind you. Come into this present moment with this green. It's not easy to do necessarily at first, but with practice, you stop escalating your own self unintentionally. Oh, I love that. Because it's important. I think the end of the day, when it comes to healing, what you're saying, what I'm saying, it's like it's repetition. Yeah. Right? Like, it's repetition.

You have to do it something a million times. Actually, I think when my friend said she was reading a study and it's 300 times for your body to remember something. So, like, 300 of the same thing, 3,000 for you to embody a new mindset. So I gotta say, I have to believe it 3,000 times. And it's like, yeah, okay, so it's gonna take me a minute. Yeah. Right? But I wanted to ask you a couple of questions from that we got on the Sosh.

Okay. I'm not going to give my feedback on. But I love your feedback. Oh, it'll come after, just not first. Because I want your thoughts first before I. Okay. Okay. So again, this kind of goes big on what we were just talking about.

It's like, someone to ask, what do you expect from someone when you're stressed? What do I expect from what do you expect from someone? So here's the delio. Is stress is not universal. Despite what you have been told, that's fucking clickbait. Stress is, and this is also what's really interesting, stress is not something negative. Stress and our stress response in our body is how we actually adapt in the world.

It's the release of energy in our body to make a mobilization or adapt to this stimulus. and then navigate it in the dance of life. That's what stress and stress response is. Stress is the stimulus. Stress response is our body getting ready and actioning adaptation. So now, based on a lot of modeling, based on a lot of different ways we had to compensate as kiddos, we have different reactions of avoiding stress response or avoiding the expression that can come with that.

or difference were locked in a trauma response so we feel like there's only one option. When actually in a healthy, you know, healthy enough being, we have lots of choice. So it's more about how do I expect someone to respond in stress is I expect someone to have a lot of choices. When they don't have a lot of agency, the ability to recognize, okay, I could do this,

I could do that, I could do that. that tells me they're actually flooded. And that is a totally different way of navigating. It's like, then it's all about how I'm going to co-regulate with you. I see you're flooded, boo. I love you. I'm going to be here. We can take some breaths together.

We can go take a walk. We can go process. We can take a bath. We can go have sex. Whatever you need. Let's co-regulate as a team. Right. And I think the key here is like the word, what I always have an issue with is like,

because I think she was saying like, what should Ike's from my partner? Like how. To me, it's like, well, Have you expressed clearly your expectations? Yep. Because if I'm stressed, I don't expect my partner to just automatically attuned to my needs. I don't expect him to just know what I'm going to need. We've been together two years.

So we have an understanding of like, you said, when I see my partner stress, or he wants to get laid, right? Or like, let's go for a walk, right? Like, let's do something. And I remember once, I forget, I hope he was my sharing. When we first started dating, we, okay, I like THC. I love, I love edible, like products like that. Yeah.

I took too much. And I was so anxious. I couldn't sit still. And I'd never forget, Ryan was like, he'd just like grab me and we had sex. And I remember after being like, wow, God, that helped me so much. I could release all that. I was like, how'd you know? And he was like, oh, I didn't.

I was just really hoping that that was what was going to do it. I was like, well, as a man, thank you. I was like, thank you for going for the automatic. And it worked. And like, it doesn't always. Yeah. And like, he's tried since. And I'm like, not this time.

Yeah. And it's like, but as a partner, I've also said, hey, when I'm really stressed, you know what I need from you. I would love if you just fucking sit there and let me talk. Yes. Got it. Then moving forward, yeah, I'd expect that you would. But I have to clearly articulate.

You have to clearly articulate what the needs are to support your co-regulation. To support your regulation. Right. And that's a big deal that you typically should articulate before you're flooded or before you're in the overwhelm. So when I get stressed, I'll see my headphones on the table. And he's like, do you want? I'm like, thank you. Yeah.

Because it's totally okay. Okay. So this is a question I actually asked. But I predicted. Sneaky. Okay. I see this. I used to see this all the time.

Okay. Your thoughts on, I don't want any drama on a profile or like on a dating. Because I see it religious. I'm not, I don't want any drama. And I'm like, okay, what are your thoughts on that? Okay. It's two things. A, they have experienced someone who has exaggerated and intensified.

emotions, narratives, stories that are disproportionate to what was needed to be in relationship. Or they're an asshole. They want no accountability. And no accountability. And they might have grown up in a environment where the expression of emotions was so minimized that any expression of emotion feels big. And so for them, it's the Alice in Wonderland situation where just as like, oh, you're sharing your sadness at a two.

well, I can only tolerate it at a 0.5. And so your two seems so big. In reality, they need to stretch their capacity. Okay, does drama create a full sense of intimacy or connection? Yes. Oh, my God. Great question. Yeah, I mean, it's so funny. When I've had clients come in, they're like, oh, my God, our best sex is makeup sex.

And I was like, no. No, no, no, no. Or the toxic is the best sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, okay, why? Why? It's because we had this big rupture and we were really able to repair during, you know, during sex. And I was like, okay, that layer of intimacy that you're saying feels really good, does it always require high intensity? If so, we're seeing a pattern of roller coaster here.

And that means that you will not feel that level of intimacy that you're desiring unless you have a big activation, a big, stress response. And is that how you want to live the rest of your fucking life? I don't. You know what else? I'll be fucking honest with you. I say intimacy when I refer to this because on Instagram people are like, it's just sex. I'm like, you're not allowed to say that word on Instagram because you'll get blocked. So I'm like sex, intimacy and just being an adult in and out is always sexier with somebody that's unattainable. It's like, yeah, because you feel like you're being chosen in that moment. I used to. Oh my God, the best sex of my life was with an ex. And it's at the time before I met my partner. And it was, yeah, because,

Because I was just, that was my validation. You chose me. You're here. You're picking me. Maybe more can come of this. Because it is a very intimate act. You're both, you know, it doesn't be. You can have someone in your fucking body, but you can't talk about your emotions. Like, hello?

And, you know, because somebody else had asked, and this kind of goes in of like, can you, can you change, like, can you go from it being high highs and change it to a healthy love? Of course. Of course. It's like, I can win the lottery tomorrow and do all of these things. It's like, well, what's required of that? is you have to be willing to enjoy boringness or what you perceive as boringness. Like if you were diabetic or you got a notification, you were pre-diabetic notification, whatever that means.

Like a little buzzer on your phone. Hey, you're pre-diabetic. Check your insulin asshole. I'm pre-diabetic. So I can say this. It's like you would start to make lifestyle changes, especially around nutrition, right? So like, I'm not going to eat that donut anymore. And if sugar was my spice of life, where if drama was my spice of life and I start to diet, take a diet of it, all of a sudden food or like I'm taking out salt and sugar. All of a sudden, even the vegetables I have, I'm like, ew, oh my God, they're so fucking boring, they're bland. I don't care how much nutrients is in those motherfuckers.

I am grossed out until there's a space in which you're like, oh, I can actually start to taste the flavors of the vegetables. I taste the flavors of my food, the natural flavors, which are actually amazing, but I've been spicing them with drama and fights and all these other things. I've never actually tasted the purity of love, or in this example, the vegetables. And when you do, it's like so many flavors and nuances and deliciousness that you can never get to in the high highs. beautifully said. I like the spice, right? Like thinking of it's like it's like you add it because you can take it away.

And I, I could definitely relate to that. Like I used to think if it were like healthy, why, but why do I have to, what do you mean you like me? But I have to fight for this. Yeah. I have to, I have to go through hell and back. Yeah. To see if you're going to leave me. I have to chase you. Or you have to chase me whatever the fuck it is. So much of self-abandonment. So much. I, what I hear with the drama is a lot of self-abandonment. It is. because that's how it all started. I mean, any addiction starts with the need to abandon oneself as a preservation, a survival mechanism. You know, what we know from addiction now, like before it was like, oh, addiction is just a chemical reaction in your brain. Now we know it's a biopsychosocial model, which means like your environment can change your chemistry, your gene expression. Your relationships can change all that. So it is a biological piece, but it's not just. People playes and things.

All of those things. And what we know about addiction is the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety. It's human connection. It is the void to which many of us feel. It's like I had to dissociate a shit ton as a kid in order to survive what I went through. As did you. Like all the beatings. Like I had to get the fuck out of there.

But there was such a pain that, you know, then pain is the signal that something is wrong, right, in your body. that in the pain and the signal was there was an absence of me of where I needed and should belong. And I filled or masked that pain with various addictions, including drama. And until I could start to feel safe enough in my own body to come back and know that I belong here, that I belong in my own body,

then that was the point where I was like, oh, I don't need any of this other shit. I don't need the fights. I don't need to be chasing someone. I don't need someone to chase me. I'm actually enough. That's why I'm such a proponent of like when I was in my hot mess phase.

Yeah. I didn't have a routine. I didn't. And it's like, no, no, no, no. You've got regiment yourself. You do. Like I every day I get, this is hard. It's like, choose you fucking hard.

You know what's really hard getting up every day? Yeah. Right? I think of my skincare routine, I'm like, girl, you commit, right? Like I, there's a lot of things and it's like working is hard, living is hard, functioning is hard. Yeah. But we choose our hard.

Yeah. And family relationships, these are all those dynamics. Of course, they're going to feel extra tender. Yeah. And they're going to feel really. But I think, okay, I want to end with one question that somebody had asked that I think is a good one. Is when, how do you differentiate between, is it boring? Like, am I bored with this person?

Yeah. Or am I trying to get the drama? Oh. I've got my own personal experience, but I want to know your thoughts on this. Because it's a huge, it's a biggie. Yeah. I remember as a kid often saying it was bored. And my mom said only boring people are bored.

Or something like that. And I was like, oh, I don't want to be a boring person. And I truly was not. But here's the thing that I find is if I'm in myself and I can get curious with another person and they can get curious with me, there's an endless amount of information, of stimulus, of activities that we can do and talk about. And if I need the high highs that sort of, you know, when you're stressed out, we all know that feeling in our body. If you're finding that and that you need that to be in relationship, then the boredom that we're talking about, the discernment is like when you don't have that, you're going to

have a long time of what you perceive as boredom and then mixed with anxiety. And underneath that, if you can ride it will be like an amazing array of experiences. And I don't know, I've never gotten bored in a relationship. I, so I think. Have you? Yeah, I did. Well, because I was dating the people. I was bored in the relationship because these weren't for me.

I looked at, oh, I have a boyfriend. They couldn't meet you. Like, they weren't interacting and engaging and asking, like, questions and stuff like that. You're just like, they weren't compatible for me. It was like my ex is such an amazing human being. Yeah. Like, just totally different world than me. Okay.

And we just, we weren't really wanting the same future. We weren't really, you know, things like that, that you're like, this isn't for me anymore. Well, that's essential. If you don't respect each other, if you don't have a shared vision of the future and you don't, like, where you're going? Just where we going. Whereas when I met Ryan, I was interested in learning more about him. Yes. That was to me the different.

I'm like, listen, I've gone on dates where you're like, somebody gouged my eyes out so I don't have to. Like, how quickly can I get out of here? Because some people really don't have a personality to back that up. Sure, sure. And you can tell. you're like, oh, you don't ask me any questions, you just give me one word answers. It's like, there's a difference between, oh, is this just super healthy? It's like, no, that person's not actually even giving you anything to work with versus.

But I don't find that a relationship. Right. So that, just to like interrupt you for a moment and say like, if it's not bidirectional, it's not a relationship. I have never found a bidirectional actual relationship boring because there is the exchange. That's true. The guys that I'm referring to were like, they had drinking problems. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Like we weren't. Yeah, there's no sharing the space. Yeah, there was like two single people trying to navigate the world together and you're like, that's not working. There's nothing about that. That's relational. No. And it's like, I think for me, if you're completely right, if you're with somebody that you're like, I'm not interested in this person, okay, then don't be with this person. Right.

Like, thank you. But if you're with someone and you're like, no, they're awesome. Like, they're funny and I enjoy being around them. But, you know, I hear all the time. Like, the spark is missing. A.k.a. the trauma tingles. Thank you. We should start with this. How did I not start with this in the episode? Because I think this spark is such a dangerous. I'm like, you're chasing a feeling,

eventually that's going to go away. And, you know, I've had people say to me, because I talk about the trauma tingles. And the trauma tingles is the unconscious, you know, magnetism towards someone that is the familiar. Or it is something that is familiar enough that reactivates the familiar in you. however we want to say it. Essentially, like I've had people say like, oh, so no one should have feelings on that first date. No, we're not talking about that.

But if you're chasing that alone and you're not meeting the actual person, you're not actually in relationship. You're chasing the sensation. Do you want a feeling? Remember when I talked about drama doesn't make sense? It's just about making sensation. Well, here we are. Trauma Tingles is about being in purely the sensation and not in the relationship.

It's just like pedestaling. Oh, because I hear it all that. They're perfect. They check all my boxes, but I'm not feeling the spark. And I'm like, so you're chasing a feeling. Yeah. That's it. Which, like anything, like a firework, like a light.

And that will burn out. It's not Hanukkah, all right? That one light ain't lasinated, right? Like, it's, you have to, you bought a ticket ride the ride. It's like, if you're getting where after, oh, well, they're just boring me. It's like, well, but that's not sustainable. And you're, this is what we mean by that high, high, low, low of like, I need this excitement. And it's like, well, but what goes up also has to come down.

Yeah. And if, again, I just want to really clarify, if you're chasing the sensation, you're not in relationship. And that can be such a hard distinction because we're like, oh, my God, I just feel so much. So feeling so much in myself equals. Equals. It does not. And that's such an important discernment that, whoof, took me fucking 30, 40 years to figure out. Hello, here we are.

Oh, here we are. Still figuring it out. Oh, Scott. We could literally fucking talk all day. But to wrap this up for just our episode now, where can people find you? How can they, you have a book? I have a book. How can they connect with you, listen to the podcast, all the fun stuff?

Yeah. Dr.ScottLions.com, so it's DR. Scott Lyons. Don't go to the porn star's website. You can follow me on socials, Dr. Scott Lyons as well. My book is addicted to drama, healing the dependency on crisis and chaos and yourself and others. And it's kind of everywhere. And you can listen to you and I talking about my podcast, legitimately used. humans. And all of this will be linked so everybody can buy the book and be part of the family.

And I'm just so grateful. Thank you for being on the show. Oh, I love you. Love you too.