The Sabrina Zohar Show - 107: Are They Avoidant, Narcissistic, or Just An A*shole? With Joe Nucci

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

Sabrina welcomes Joe Nucci to discuss dating and relationship dynamics, starting with the misconception that location is the root of dating struggles. Joe notes that while cities like New York and Colorado have distinct dating cultures, true obstacles often stem from avoidance and unresolved personal issues.  They explore how self-acceptance bridges awareness and healing, stressing that dating is a skill, and choosing openness is key. They highlight the difference between connection and attachment, explaining that safety and validation deepen attraction. True growth, they agree, comes from intentional communication and addressing underlying issues in relationships. Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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of the Sabrina Zohar show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Hi, babes, welcome back to another week. I still can't believe that like we're in November now. I don't know where time is going, but here we are. And this week, we have a very special guest. We have Joe Nucci here. And he is a psychotherapist that I adore. And we talk about all different relationship dynamics. We start to debunk like, are they avoidant? Are they just an asshole? And we just had a really robust conversation that I'm really excited for you guys to hear. Because as you guys know, I'm evolving the content. Nothing's going to change about the show, but we're going to go deeper. We're going to have different conversations because I want to support you guys on your growth. I don't want it to just be a one-trick pony

where we just talk about the same shit all the time. So I'm really, really amped. And I'm amped for all the new things that are coming in the next year. So guys, as always, thank you. Thank you for supporting me. Thank you for being here. Please don't forget. If you guys need anything, there's the new course that Masha and I created to help with regulating your nervous system, especially in the first zero to three months. We identified all the pain points and really wanted to give you guys something that would be a tool. And of course, there's the foundation course, it's the breakup course. And as you guys know, some of you, I'm going to be taking less clients because I'll be writing a book next year. So really, if you need anything, the courses are there.

There's some free guides. And as always, there's the podcast. The podcast, is here to support you guys. And please don't forget to rate and review the show. Subscribe on YouTube. And please follow along the show on Spotify, Apple, wherever you're listening and have them auto download. They've decided to change things. So if you don't auto download, you just won't see when the new episodes are out. And I want to make sure I support you guys in every aspect in every way. And guys, again, thank you, thank you. Follow along on the socials. And if you need anything at all, leave a comment. Let us know what you guys think of the episodes. Let us know what you guys want to see more of and let us know how else I can support

you guys. And thank you so much for supporting me. So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Welcome to the Sabrina Zohar Show and welcome to the studio. I'm so excited to have you. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, all the way from New York. You came just for me. I basically did, yeah.

And to escape the disgusting summer of New York. Correct, yes. Yay. Well, for anybody who doesn't know you, could you please introduce yourself and share your wisdom with everybody? Yeah, sure. Hello, everyone. My name is Joe Nucci.

I am a licensed practicing psychotherapist. I have been in the field of human behavior coaching self-help for many years. I've been formally practicing. Let's see, I saw my first patient in grad school in 2018. And so it's been a minute. And I've only been doing like content creation and stuff for a little over a year, almost a year and a half now. So that's been very, very fun to be able to kind of like share knowledge and stories and wisdom and just work my brain in a different way. And but yeah, that's basically what I do all day. I wake up and I move my body, I get something to eat, and then I either give therapy or I think about content or I like

a work on writing or like some other kind of long-form project I'm up to. I love that. Well, and I love the emphasis on moving your body because it's so important to move and do something when you wake up, so I'm fucking here for that. But I'm also excited to have you because at first, when we first were talking about the episode, it was like, oh, let's talk about like avoidance. And it's like, sure, we could touch on it. But we have so many other interesting aspects to talk about.

So for me, I was like, fuck it. Let's just like dive on in because I know you're in the dating field as well, correct? Yeah. So you have some personal experience, professional experience. So like, we're going to be able to trickle that in. And it doesn't listen, I don't care who you date, right? Love is love. So for me, it'll all apply and I'm excited.

But I was curious, like, even just off the bat, what have you been noticing in dating that you're kind of seeing out there personally and professionally? Like, is it overlapping or are you feeling differences versus what other people are experiencing? Yeah. It can overlap, especially if the patient is there to talk about their dating or their relationships. They're not always, which is sometimes going to be a disconnect from what people see a lot of therapists talk about on social media because relationships are universally relatable. And it can be easier to kind of like boil it down to those different sound bites and stuff.

But a lot of the times when I have someone in therapy, it may be affecting their relationship. what is it that that's affecting the relationship? Is it like their anxiety, their depression? Is it, you know, a strain familial relations or whatever it might be? And so that's actually the conversation we're having. Now, having said that, I think that as someone who practices in both New York and Colorado, it is interesting for me to think about how like the different contexts or different cultures will kind of affect people differently in terms of the challenges they're having. So the best part about New York is the density of people, but that's also the worst part about New York. I think I actually saw it was on a piece of content or someone's podcast or something. They

were saying, you know, like the paradox of choice, like how people struggle with Tinder and dating apps. They're always saying New York always had that problem because, you know, you may check all the boxes, but there's someone just like YouTube bars down and why wouldn't I go, you know, see if they're a slightly better fit, right? Compared to Colorado, I know there's a lot of, I don't know if complaints is quite the right word, but people will, the culture just very different. Like people go to the mountains on the weekend. They're the way people socialize in small groups for skiing or hiking. It just kind of makes the dynamics of it all like very, very different. The different grievances. Yes. I actually do find it interesting. Like when I moved

from New York to L.A., I remember when I first got to L.A. like visiting and stuff, you know, I was on the apps and stuff and being like, oh my God, dating is so much better here. And going back and like, going home and packing up and telling my friends that. And everyone's like, are you sure? I've heard it's kind of a fucking shit show over there. And I was like, no, I swear, it's so much better than New York until I moved there. And then I was there full time. And it wasn't just fantasy. It wasn't just, oh, I'm visiting and having this. That's when you start to realize you're like, same, same, but different. Totally. Well, do you agree or disagree with this? Because I find that people will be like, oh, like, my city is the worst for dating. So when I was in Denver, people would be like,

oh, the city's the worst for dating. Like, people here are Peter Pan's. They just want to be, like, you know, mountain men or mountain women and they don't want like anything serious. And then I go to New York and everyone's like, oh, this is the worst. When I lived in D.C., they said, this is the worst. People say L.A. is the worst. I think that dating and the journey of love and all of its complexities is just difficult, you know. It's just fucking hard. It is. And like the old adage of like, you know, an AA, they say, like, choose your hard. And I've really started to adapt that because like, yes, 100%. I don't think that there's any one place that's better than the other. People ask all the time, like, where do I go to find these people? And it's like, it's not really,

There's no like island that we can just send you to be like, this is where all the available straight men are and here's where the gay men are and here's where the lesbians are and here's where the women are, right? Like that's just that ecosystem doesn't work. But I am curious your thoughts because like I hear this all the time of just like to me dating has changed and it's not like it used to be. And like I think for every positive there's a negative. But I am curious your perspective on that.

I was just talking to a friend about this. Have you ever read or learned about the book, The Art of Loving by Eric Fromm? No, but go on. Okay. So Eric Fromm was. one of those old school psychoanalysts, kind of like with Freud and with Beck and all those different people. But one of the things that separates him from a lot of those kind of OG theorists is that he wasn't trained like a medical doctor. He's actually trained as a sociologist.

And so when you read his writings about the human psyche or the human mind or psychology, it's often contextualized in commentary about capitalism or consumerism or that paradigm in history. And this book, I believe it was published in the 50s. It may have been published a little bit earlier, actually. But it's called The Art of Loving. And you read the first chapter, and he talks about all these problems people have, you know, on this journey of love, as I like to call it. And they are so parallel to today.

It's spooky. And I like to bring that up because for me, one of the biggest, and there are many takeaways from the book, and I can talk more about it. But my biggest takeaway from reading it, and I've reread it because it's just so wise and so insightful. is that, oh, all these things that we want to blame on like hookup culture or, you know, dating apps or the internet or this or like whatever. I'm kind of like, I'm not too sure. I'm not I'm not super convinced that we can actually blame those things as much as we want to. I couldn't agree more.

I was just telling Ryan, I'm like, I could all but guarantee if we didn't have the internet, then what we would hear is like, there's not enough people in my place. Like, how am I going to meet them? It's like, we have to think about the problems that were solved were a problem to begin with. So like I look at it as look at our parents generation, right? Like we're, you know, I'm 34. So like if we're all talking in the 20s, 30s, 40s, right? Even prior to that. When I talked to my mom and I had her on the show, the first thing she said was like,

Sabrina, who talked about any of this? Like no one talked about narcissism. What would the good housekeeping magazines were how to keep your husband satisfied? But she was like, no one was discussing this. So what did that mean to me was like a lot of people, proximity and timing. Oh, you're here. Okay, you're my age. You're my demographic.

You're my religion race. Whatever. Cool. Let's get married. Yeah. But then they're fucking miserable and divorce rates are through the roof. So now it's like, sure, like anything else, if they're pros and cons to dating apps, yeah, no shit. But like, actually, Ryan said something really great yesterday.

We were going live and someone said, well, I don't want to do dating apps. They're too difficult for me. I don't like it. I don't like what they do. And Ryan stopped and he goes, okay, I actually challenge you, then do it. He was like, stop avoiding things that are hard. Stop avoiding things that you're like, well, I just don't like it. It's like, cool.

There's this weird perspective. now that I've been hearing a lot of like I'd rather meet someone in person as if meeting someone in person and out in the wild system just automatically means like better than meeting somebody on the internet. Oh, meeting them on the internet, I'm not thirsty. I don't, I don't online date. But then the other side of that is like, I would never have met my partner if it wasn't for a dating app. Totally. I would never have my career if it wasn't for the internet. So it's like, sure, the casinos are there to win, right? It's a business. But at the end of the day, I look at it as like maybe be a better buyer as opposed to like be a better buyer and work on the

anxiety and what's causing that discomfort? Totally. Versus it being like, no, it's the internet's the problem. Right. 100%. So something that Eric Fromm talks about in the book is he says that people think that what we call love, whether it's like sexual and passionate love or like really like deep intimacy and partnership, whatever your version of love is, he says it is because we live in a

consumeristic society that we think it is a thing that we can go out and find or fall into. And that's why people get so twisted up about finding it and keeping it and maintaining it. And, you know, they don't want it to go. And in a certain sense, that is how it works. You do have to go out and market yourself in that sense. But what his thesis is, that's the wrong way to think about love. Love is actually a craft. It's actually something that's in you.

And it's a capacity. And you can almost like open up this window to give, to receive all the different kinds of love. Or you can close it. And I think that everyone understands this intuitively to be true. Because right after a breakup, what do most people say? They're like, I'm not letting anyone near my heart again. That wasn't fun. And then one day you meet someone, maybe on an app, maybe in person, and it's something

about how they look or their personality or their smell or whatever it is. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, no. Don't you care. And so I think that the, you know, you can blame the marketplace of it all you want. But at the end of the day, I really like how you put it. It's like, be a better buyer, be a better consumer. It's what I actually told people with, like, finding a therapist. You know, there's these companies like better health.

as an example that are trying to like solve the marketplace, like the patient therapist fit problem. It's like, or maybe be a better, more informed consumer, you know, like, what are you looking for in a therapist or a doctor or like whatever it is that you're looking for in terms of a relationship? You know, know, know yourself and actually then go and then at that point is just a process of elimination. Something that I actually did want to talk about, but serendipitously, this like weird fetacization that like, no, no, no, if a therapist says it, it's automatically right, right? Like I had one video where I was talking about medication. my personal experience.

I didn't ever, I would never sway. You do you. And someone commented saying, I don't think this is appropriate for you to even talk about this. We should be leaving this just therapist and psychologists who are studied in this,

not you. And it's like, well, so I'm not allowed to have an opinion. I'm not allowed to. And there's this weird like, well, if a therapist says it, it's gold. And it's like,

they're also humans. Totally. Well, and not all therapists are equally competent. You know, like this comes up. Sometimes people talk to me. It's like,

oh, it's like coaching versus therapy. I'm not. anti-coach even a little bit. I've worked with coaches who've been life-changing. I've worked with therapists who are not good at their job. And the inverse, right? You know, like I'll meet, you know, a coach or like a talking head and I'll be like, you have no idea what you're talking about. And then lots of therapists are really, really great. And so I think that like, I don't know, people, at a certain point, they're not even attacking the argument or whatever you're saying. They're just saying something about you. And that's not productive. I know the comment sections are full of that.

But the ad hominem stuff is just so annoying to me. It really. Yeah. Especially that like let's leave this to that. And it's like so only one person's allowed to have this conversation. It's going to be a really one way of thinking of it. It's like it's a very biased conversation. If I would never advise somebody, like somebody had actually asked like, what are your thoughts when people use like my avoidant?

And like that's a struggle for me as well. Like anything of just like, well, I know best and this is mine and I'm this expert. And it's like you might be. It might not be. but we have to be able to hold space for another perspective as well to be able to challenge ourselves. Right. Yeah. And my question is always, you know, is it working?

Like, is it working for you to not be on traditional medication? Or is it not working? Right. You know? And if it is working, then I don't know. Maybe we don't have to think too deeply about it. 100%. To me, I'm like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Right? If it's working, working. But then when it's not, it's like, it's okay to be like, hey, I'm the person that doesn't help. 100%. You had to something earlier when we were offline that I wanted to really talk about, like, this difference between self-awareness versus self-acceptance. Because I think in the dating landscape, I think we have a lot of people that are like, I'm self-aware. I understand why I do these things. But yet, here I am.

I keep doing them. And so I'm curious kind of what you've seen between the two. Because we were talking about different cognitive dissonances and different, like, there's a difference between the reality and what's happening for us. So I'm curious your thoughts and that, but just between self-awareness and self-acceptance. Yeah, I'll answer it in two parts. I'll speak kind of more generally, and then I'll tell a personal example. Perfect. So self-awareness versus self-acceptance, there's so much great information out there on social media,

people learning all these different distinctions, getting insight. I think that's wonderful. But then what I often see, and I see it a lot in therapy. In fact, it probably comes up with almost every single patient is they'll say, well, now I feel worse because I know why I'm doing these things. But I'm not, you know, I'm not changing. I'm not getting better. You know, like, Joe, what gives?

And usually the conversation I have with them is I say, well, that insight, that awareness isn't worth anything if you can't apply it to practicing a different ways of being or changing the pattern, whatever it might be. Now, that's easier said than done. And so I want to kind of get in the middle there. And that part in the middle that that stepping stone between the self-awareness and the change I often find is the self-acceptance. So for an example, I have ADHD. I'm very open about that. And one of the things that I know about me, in my experience, the ADHD, is I'm a very, like, sensation and stimulation-seeking person.

I think it makes perfect sense, right? I give therapy and I interact on social media all day. That's a very stimulating day. God, I feel so seen. Totally, right? And one of the things that I learned in my dating journey is sometimes the people that turn me on, the people that excite me, the people I feel drawn to. emotionally can be very stimulating, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was healthy or safe.

Right. Now, part of my self-acceptance journey has been actually figuring out, okay, but this is actually something that I need. Because if I don't get that stimulation, I go find it somewhere else. Not in like, even like in an infidelity way, just my gaze gets averted, you know, and then the dating process doesn't continue. And so by accepting that, I've been able to get really curious about, okay, well, what does it mean to feel stimulated and safe and secure? Or what does it mean to have passion and excitement

and maybe even a little bit of danger, but have it be sustainable? That has been like my self-acceptance. Some people, I have a buddy. He's a real peacekeeper in his temperament. The last thing you want to do with this guy is tell him to pick where to go for dinner. You know what I mean? He wants you to pick. He really, really does. And he's actually just got married. And one of the things that's great to see about his partnership choice is he had so much self-acceptance about this. You know, his wife, like, that woman will pick where dinner is. Like, she will, you know what I mean? And that's where the fit comes in, right?

You're not going to be a fit for everyone. People, like, someone who's really introverted or really easily overstimulated, probably shouldn't date me. You know, I will probably run them ragged. And that doesn't mean that they're not great or that I'm not attracted to them or I don't like wish we could be together. And if we are together, we got to strategize about this. we have to have that self-acceptance piece.

The self-acceptance piece, and like, let me clarify as well for a lot of people listening. It's like, it's not just like I had a client this morning. And I was like, okay, talk to me, like, what part of you? Like, we were talking about the part of her that she doesn't feel could be accepted by other people. And so it brought her back to like an earlier child. And I said, okay, what would you say to that kid? I love you, you're fine. And I stopped and I was like, okay, does that sound like you actually love her and that she's fine?

I was like, if I said that to you like that, like, you're fine. Okay, thank you. Would you feel seen heard and understood? would you feel safe with me? Or would you just be like, wow, that felt like you dismissed me, right? And like, oh, here we go. And so that is where it's like, it's not just about saying the words. It's not just about being like, yeah, okay, fine.

I love myself. Like, sure, when I was a kid, it did this. It's like, I had the same thing. I always felt too much. I'm big. My brother has, my brother, Joe, his ADHD is like palpable. Like, you just look at him and you're like, you're just, he's bouncing off the walls. And you're like, oh, okay.

You can't even keep a sentence, right, before he's on to the next. Whereas me and my sister, it's very, I. talk a lot. Like I have different mannerisms and hers shows up differently. And so for a long time, like we like I would go into this. I'm too much and I'm too much and trying to hide those parts and then shame the like, oh, see, I fucking knew it. I told you you're too much. Versus when I met Ryan, I was like, hey, I accept those parts of me like, yeah, I get it. I am a big personality. A curse. I speak fast. I talk a lot. Like if you like that, door is wide open. Come on in. Because then at least when you're creating safety, it's an authentic safety. It's a real safety. You have a solid

foundation as opposed to. And like I think it kind of loops us into this like kind of dissonance that I've seen between the reality versus what we seem to think it is. You know, like we have people writing every day of like, but we had this great date. I don't understand. It was amazing. Everything was fantastic. But yet they don't want to see me again. And I have this as a pattern. And it's like, okay. So my first thing is like, all right, well, if this is a pattern, can we look at like, what's the pattern about it, right? Are you not being vulnerable? Or you're not sharing things with these people?

Are you feeling closed off? Right? Whatever. But then I think we go a little further because it's like, just because you perceive it to be a great day does not actually mean that this person wants a relationship with you. And so I think that part of like accepting those aspects, like I could think you're amazing and be like, oh my God, Joe is so handsome. He's so lovely.

Wow. Like we had the best time. Wow. We just spent three hours together. That was amazing. And I can still go home and be like, doesn't mean I want to marry this person. That just means I had a really good time and they're a good human. Right.

And I think if we take everything as like, oh, my God, it's me and what did I do and it's a me, me, me, me, after a while, it's just like, what's the disconnect here? Well, I like a lot about what you're saying. The first thing, and let's actually normalize this. Like, let's normalize having a great first date. And doesn't mean there needs to be a second one. No. Particularly if you are self-aware and self-accepting of what you need in a partner.

while being flexible in whatever that criteria is, of course, but I think that that's number one. And then number two, you know, I'm a very enthusiastic, kind of optimistic person. Most of my first meetings with people are just pretty great. And it's just, that's just kind of like the baseline, you know? And I mean, people, maybe the other person disagrees. But that's my subjective experience of it, you know. And so I'm also kind of getting curious, the people that are frustrated, that they keep having these first dates, they're not translating into second or third dates.

You know, is it because of that? You know, it's kind of like whenever I meet someone who's very charismatic and I, you, whenever you interact with someone is very charismatic, there's kind of like, you just feel turned on. Yeah. You know, by life, they do that to every single person they meet. I learned not the hardware. Totally. I learned that with like a couple of summers ago.

No, a couple of summers ago. I forget that how old I am. COVID. Oh. This was during COVID. And he was this guy and like, it was one of those. Like, I was scared to say anything. So like we had mutual friends and we like connected on social and then we like met up and hung out.

And I was just like, oh my God, he's like really attractive. And like, no mind you, he's a lovely guy, but he was a vegan DJ that lived at home with his parents like in the basement. You know what you're like? By no means is this like, oh my God, he's this like 10 at a 10. It was like, no, he was a very sweet guy, very lovely but very charismatic, very outgoing, knew how to create. So we were spending all this time together and we were going out all the time. And I was going to, we were going to, we went away together to, I was about to Joshua Tree. No, that's the New York version is upstate New York and going to like Woodstock and stuff.

And so we had that great. I remember when we came back, it was like maybe two months after. And I was like, hey, like I feel so connected to you. We have like the best sex. We're having such an amazing time. I'm seeing you like two or three times a week. You know, is this a connection you want to pursue? And he just stops.

And he's like, oh, it's not you. And I was like, I just connect with everybody. Like that's my personality. And I was like. What a dick. But also like weirdly helpful. to hear. And so, of course, I think of instantly, I was like, oh, I'm humbled, right?

Like, you're just like, oh, okay. But what that really taught me was like, like, to your point, like, a lot of people have met me and they think I'm flirting with them and I'm like, I'm just being an outgoing, I'm creating a fucking conversation with you because I don't know how else to do it because you're a goddamn brick that's sitting in front of me on a date trying to have a drink. But that doesn't mean that I'm interested in pursuing something. That just means I'm going to make the best out of the time and try to connect. A real connection to me is like, it goes beyond.

that. But I am curious. I say this all the time. How do you perceive the difference between people connecting versus attaching? In this moment, we are connected. We're having a great conversation. We're doing a great show. If, you know, the show goes live, I don't hear from you for a while. Like, that would bum me out because I like our chats. But I don't feel particularly at this stage in our friendship, like attached. We haven't known each other long enough. We haven't gone deep. enough on or off camera, you know, that is actually just the truth. I would throw in another distinction. There's also the distinction between like committed and attached, you know, in commitment, it's like I am committed to, and this is true, I'm committed to being your friend,

you know, and doing great stuff. On air, off air, you're great. Am I attached? I hope not. If it didn't, you know, have it like, no, because like I said earlier, it's just, it hasn't, it just hasn't been, you know, long or substantive enough. You know, that's actually the truth. So that's how I think about it. This comes up a lot when people use attachment styles to try to understand dating. I sometimes see with my patients, they'll use the framework of attachment styles, which is very helpful. But they often use it in the very, very early stages of dating. And that's when I actually will often say, well, but an attachment style is it's the style of attachment. It means they are attached to you, you know, via intimacy. And this is how they're navigating it. I'm not totally

sure that, you know, feeling anxious because someone hasn't texted you back yet is evidence of anything. I don't see any evidence. Potentially. I mean, it could be, you know, and you can't get attached quickly. That happens in love. But people will be like, oh, well, they're not getting back to me because they're avoidantly attached.

And sometimes I wonder, like, are they? You know? Or are they still getting to know you? People move at different paces. I mean, me, like, you know, I'm Italian. I have some Hispanic heritage. Like, we're passionate. We like to move fast.

I talk to my little brother about this all. the time. Like, I will fall in and out of love on a first date. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that is just like the passion part of it. But that's not how it works, you know? I see the differentiation. Like, for me, the connection versus attachment. It's like it want versus need, right? Like, I want you in my life. I'm connecting with you. This is so fun. I really want you to come versus I need you. And now for me, if I'm going to talk in heterosexual norms because I date men, I don't know anything else. I have been told many at times by men like they can feel that. Like, I can feel when you're, and actually same with me.

Like, I can feel when a dude, when I'm dating somebody when you're like, are you only okay if I respond? Like, are you going to be okay if I say no or if I don't answer? And it's like, it's a lot of pressure when you've literally had two dates with somebody. Totally. And so I think for anybody listening, it's like if you find yourself, like, I attach quickly. It's like, to me, I am actually curious what you would suggest for those folks, especially from like a clinical perspective. before I even answer, what is your, how do you view that? My answer is to get curious as to why, why are you moving quickly?

I think a lot of people will, you know, maybe attribute it to something childhood, something trauma-related, that can be the case. But it is also the case that not all, but many people, when they're young, when they're more immature, I know I was certainly like this in my past. You just, in a lot of ways, you just don't know any better. So you rush and you get attached, and then you don't actually know the person well enough yet. And so when they reveal their flaws, which are certainly there, when they don't text you back, when they're when they overt their gaze, then understandably, you know, anxieties and everything's will come up. So it could be an immaturity thing. Like I said, it could be a childhood. It could be a trauma thing.

It could also be an ADHD thing, you know, be the hyperfocus, right? The hyperfocusing on a new crush. You know, are you attached? Are you just hyperfocusing? there are so many other possibilities. This comes up sometimes when people talk about love bombing. It's like, well, it could be manipulative what they're doing, but it's like, or are they immature?

Is it puppy love? Right. Is it the hyper focus? Is it I'm actually from a place of like wound or trauma, you know? So I know that sometimes people, you know, want that more kind of clean cut answer, but how I work with people and what has been helpful for me personally is to get curious in terms of where it's coming from. And then you can decide to go with it, you know, or not. Curious is the word of the goddamn millennium. Like, get curious. Because I know for me when I

used to attach to people, like, it was really just because there was a little wounded girl that was like, yay, come save me. I don't have to do this anymore. Yeah, you accept me. When it's like, well, but no, because by attaching to them, then all I ended up doing was remicking those same attachment. So you didn't text me. Okay, I get really anxious. I tried to get your attention. And And then I try to go outwards and then I start to shame myself when it doesn't work. And it's like, that was a loop I knew all too well. Versus connecting with somebody is having the faith that when you leave, you're like, if this was real, if what I felt was felt by you, we're going to see each other again.

We're going to pursue this. And it's like this un, it's hard. I'm not saying this is easy. I am learning how to surrender in my business right now. And so, you know, listen, I'm past. I have a relationship, but I have a single for 15 years on and off. Like, it says nothing new for me. I know that anxiety, oh, so well.

And there's a very big difference between genuinely connecting with someone and being like, damn, this was really fucking great. And then attaching to them where you're like, that's where I see that dissonance between, oh, it was an amazing date. And then you're like, okay, can you tell me like three things that made it amazing? And usually you're like, oh, you don't really have much besides it felt good. And it's like, feelings aren't facts though. Totally. Feelings are not facts. You know, and I think as I reflect on my own experience, I'm also.

present to how, you know, the first time I was, whether it was lust or love, like we can debate on like what it was. But the first time I felt that thing, it was like, I will never find that again until I did. You know what I mean? And that's not to discount how special that connection was with that person. Because it's not like you can have it with every single person you meet. It's not like you can just open up that window at Will that I was talking about. It's a little bit more complicated than that.

but there's this, what is the saying? It's like love is as perennial as the grass. And like, yeah, sometimes the grass will brown a little bit. It comes back. I love that. Well, and it's like there has to be. To me, the only way that I've ever been evil and I've to like get through my days

is to believe that there's something out there. Like Brit Frank lover, my friend, she's a neuropsychotherapist, her stame, she always tells me, this or better, this or better. And I'm like, okay, well, I don't want this. I want better. It's true. once I was, it was actually in a therapy session where I was receiving the therapy and I was processing a breakup and I was, oh, I was so heartbroken.

I was crying and I remember the therapist that, you know, what about this is so particularly painful? And I think the narrative that I was marinating in was something like, I will never get that feeling again. Like I blew it, you know, and this is actually, I don't know for certain, but I'm guessing she was at least indirectly informed by Eric Fromm, who I brought up earlier. she said, that is one version of love. This love where it's, you know, there's the one, and it's like the prince and the princess, and you know, you ride off into the sunset. There's this other version where it's a capacity

that you can open inside you. And this person that you just met, they opened your capacity for love to give and receive wider than you thought was possible. And it's shutting down now. But in the next one, not only will you be able to open it just as much, but what if you can open it more? You know, and I remember thinking

that was such a, it was so helpful for me to hear in that moment. And it's, and it's so wise. And it was true when Eric Fromm wrote about it. You know, like, I mean, at this point, we're approaching, what, 75, 100 years ago? Pre-internet? And it's true today. That goes back to like, it's not any different. Like, humans have not really changed. We've evolved. But we haven't really, like, my brother was used to say this. He was like, the one bet I'll make is that people will be people. And he was like, that's the one, I'll put my money on that. All day. And he was like, I will put my money on that and you're like man it's true but i do i do want to kind of hit a little bit more on like that capacity right like to me i see i get it every day of like this was a mistake it was a regret

i wish it didn't happen and it's like sure listen nobody wants to do i'm not volunteering like did i want to cease and desist no like i wasn't like i was excited about this but what it does is it expands her window of tolerance because then by going through that realizing you didn't die you're okay mentally, you know, the jury's still out, but like you're okay, you're here, you're functioning and you're working through. To me, what I see this as is like, great, I use these as let this be, I remember like my biggest heartbreak. My mama looked at me in the eyes and she said, let this be the day you make the change. Remember this in your head of when people, like, what had changed? And you're like, I was crying on the floor and I was hyperventilating and I

couldn't fucking breathe. And that was when I promised myself that I would make a change moving forward to me that's so much more powerful than just being like oh woe is me everything just keeps happening to me it's like no hype happening for you it is not happening to you and if you can reframe and start to understand hey if i consistently get the same fucking dating experiences over and over what am i missing where is the disconnect for me my sister used to say you're the common denominator and i get so mad yeah you don't understand and you don't know and it's like no she was right i am the common denominator in the sense that those experiences were all the same because i allowed them to be all the same. I didn't change the dance steps. I didn't include boundaries. I didn't share

what I was feeling. I didn't say how I was feeling. I didn't express those things. I used my body to connect. Ooh, fuck me. And then you'll like me. And it's like, yeah. Disney lied to us. Right. Yeah, I know. I always think my body is going to get them to like me more. Hasn't worked yet. Not yet. But I will say on the flip side, like, when Ryan and I hooked up, I was in a headspace of, I can't eat my dog. It just passed away. And I was like, I lost my best friend. like I'm struggling to find who I am. I don't have the space for this other person. But by being intimate, we both realize like, oh, there's a little bit more to you.

That was, but it wasn't that that did it. It was the fact that that allowed me to be like, well, we got that other way, right? Like, I don't really care. But I just, to me, I'm like, it really goes down to intentions as well. Yeah. Well, I also really, and let's also normalize this, which is you can shift from like the hookup or something more transactional or superficial into the deeper thing if the intention is there. You know, I feel like a lot of people want to separate them.

It's like, oh, like we met that way so it can't be this way. And like, I think, I don't know. I feel like I'm so over that. I'm so over it. And the biggest thing, what you just said is the differentiation is the communication and the intentionality. I've had friends that are like, yeah, we started off as a hookup buddy. Neither one of us really had expectations.

And then one day we realized we like each other and we were together. And you're like, okay, cool. That's not the norm. Right? Like, it's like, that's like some people who I met my partner at the grocery store. You should try the grocery store. And you're like, okay. Right.

But can it happen? Absolutely. But you got to learn to communicate. Yeah. I had this friend once. She told me that, you know, she loves having a moment of passion or lust. She obviously loves the feeling that potential of like falling for someone. But it was very interesting.

She goes, but I don't look for it, you know? Kind of like you just said. I thought that the language is. really, really important. So I want to double-click on it. Your friends who started Sookup Buddies, then got together, they were like, well, one day we just kind of realized, you know, it wasn't a, in a way there was almost like a lack of intention, which is kind of interesting to me. But it's not right or wrong. It's just another way to, to play the game, go on the journey, whatever metaphor you want to use. And I think it's, I think it's cool.

If you could do it authentically, 100%. Like, that's the biggest thing. It's like, don't, if you're listening right now being like, oh, I'm hooking up with this person and neither one of us have had a conversation, but deep down, all you want is a partnership. Then I would even start to ask like, okay, my qualifying questions, especially when it's like they, they clearly you can tell that this other person doesn't, but like, I do. My then is of like, how do you know you want a relationship with this person if you're not seeing any parts of them besides just the physicality aspect, right? Oh, well, we go over, we hook up, we have a great time, but I want to be with them. Yeah. What part of them do you want to be with? Their emotional unavailability, the fact that

they shut down, that they don't want to have a conversation with you, that they kick you out after you hook up. Like, well, the, the, the, the psychoanalytic interpretation is the part of them that you want to be with. It's the part that you projected onto them. That was one of the most helpful things I ever heard in my training was the, and I mean, there's different kind of ways to describe the experience of like the falling in love with someone, but I think my favorite way is like you projected your ideal onto them.

And your ideal is informed by your past, by your past relationships, by relation with your parents and family, whatever it might be. because we all do that. I mean, even you and I coming together for the first time, there's probably sequeniletically an amount of projection because you can't, you have to fill in the gaps somehow and you're going to use what you know and what you know is from your past.

You know what I mean? So it makes complete sense to me. 100%. It's like, oh, it makes total sense. And then it's like, and then what do we do with it, right? Like if you and I had met and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm going on and on how amazing you are. And Ryan's looking being like, he just told you you're an idiot.

Right? Like, then you're like, there's a dissonance here. Like I cannot overlook. look if you were to be blatantly disrespectful or rude or something, I mean like, but he's so amazing. It's like, what part, his dick or his face? Like, which where are we at? The sex brain will skew your perception like nothing else. You know, I don't know if that's a clinical term, but it should be. I'm so here for that. I dignitized is such a thing. I have one client and it's all she ever talks about. She's like, but the sex, I'm like, I get it. Toxic sex is so fucking

hot because your body, your neurochemicals, but it's funny. I don't know if you've ever experienced this. I did personally, and that's what changed it for me. I was enamored with this guy. I always look at him. I call him the conventionally handsome guy because I insulted him by calling him conventionally handsome because I was like, you're like objectively a good looking person, but I was like, I'm not falling to my knees, though, because of you. Like, I can kind of see right through it. So like, called him the conventionally handsome guy. And so anyways, he was lovely. And like, we went on probably like five or six dates in, like, the time span of like a week and a half while he was in L.A.

and it was to the point where like when he touched me I was like oh my god like I could not keep it to myself but I was like I'm not going to sleep with him I'm going to play that I'm not doing this and I'm actually like hindsight happy that I didn't because I'm sure it would have been even more fucked up at that time and then he left he moved he was he lived in another state and so then we did long distance for like a month and a half before he came back and that's when I started to see who he was right the like I'll never forget I sent him like he was supposed to come he's staying with me and I was like I haven't spoken to you in three days like you're literally supposed to come and stay in my house this Wednesday. It's Saturday. I haven't spoken to

in three days. What are we doing here? And I'll never forget he left me a voice note going, baby girl, relax. You're like, go live your light. And it was just so, like, I remember just my friend and I being like, what? Ew. Very much. And so then he, like, we had a conversation. He called me the next day. Or like two days. I didn't talk to him for a couple days. I was like, I need to process this. And it was just such a passive voice note. And then we spoke a few days later, right? The day before he was supposed to come. And I clarify, blah, blah. And then he shows up and it's like, I felt nothing.

I felt nothing. Like, I remember we finally did hook up and I was like, eh, mediocre at best. Like when he touched me, I was just like, because I saw who he was. Isn't that funny how that happens? I, that's when I, that was the first time I really saw the like, dude, you weren't that into him. It was just the unattainability in this game that you were playing. But once you really got to know him and I, that's when I started changing the way

I dated. I was like, I'm done. I kicked him out of my house and it's like, the fuck out. completely different experience, but it would have been the same had I not actually been able to see the difference between my body was just longing for him. Yeah, but is it just wild how it's like when I've had experiences like that, to me, the most wild thing is it's like, it's like, I remember you looking different, you know? And it's not that it's like, oh, like you had a completely different like face shape or like whatever,

it's never, but it's noticeable enough where than like how I feel, you know, what I see you is, different and it's um and but the good news and how like our mind can play that trick on us is it works in the other direction does you know someone that maybe you weren't over the moon physically attracted to let's say you get to know them and their their personality is just amazing and it's like wow that person's hot right right right so and when we first met i was like he's not really my type you know whatever sex was great though and i was like okay but then as we got to know each other i was like oh my god he's so fucking sexy And it's like, okay, objectively, people might be looking being like, all right, like, he's not Ryan Reynolds.

And it's like, oh, God, that man. I love Ryan Reynolds. Sorry. I just had to have a little shameless plug. But, like, I find Ryan very attractive. It wasn't, but it wasn't like, oh, my God, my clothes, like, take them off of me. Right. Until he created a safe spate.

And then I was like, oh, my God, rip my clothes off of me. Because it's, it's true. Like, when you start to really do the work, don't come after me on a trademark infringement, when you start to really do the work and, like, understand who you are and what you're genuine needs are versus I just want, want, want, you get turned on by things that you're like, I'm sorry, did you just validate my experience and tell me that I'm allowed, that I'm allowed to feel like that? I'm like, it's hot in here?

Is it just me? Yeah. Totally. I really love the way you put it. It's also very, and I mean, like, I really adore the psychotherapist, but it's actually like a, I think a really great complimentary perspective, what Esther Perel puts out a lot because it's kind of like, well, intimacy and desire butt heads. There is truth in what she's saying.

Like I get where she's coming from. And it is within intimacy. It is within safety that you can actually like let your desire rip. Could not agree more. Could not agree more. Within that safe space with somebody, you are able to explore yourself. You're able to understand yourself. Like I've grown so much.

And I've said this before on a show, but I'll say it again. I used to think dating someone and, you know, oh, he changed me. Used to think that it was like the movies of like, oh, the bad boy. I remember Cry Baby? Did you ever see Cry Baby? I don't think so. Johnny Depp. Oh, was he the bad boy?

Yes. Oh, my God. We'll watch it later. Yes. It is like my childhood. I had, I just gave up the T-shirt. I had it for like 15 years and it was so gross. I was like, it's time.

But Johnny Depp's character and he's like, he's the bad boy. He's the motorcycle. He comes up with the cry baby tear and he's just, oh, God. Jesus, crazy. He's so fucking out. And he goes for the square, right? Oh, my God. She's the good girl and she's like the pre, you know, the child, like the daughter of the priest type thing, you know, very like goody two shoes.

And of course, like they didn't, you know, they have this little thing. And it's like, oh, he changed for her. That's what I used to think it was. Oh, I'm going to get the bad boy and I'm going to make him into the guy that can commit. That's not how this works. What I realized, how you actually become a better version of yourself when you hear it in marriage vows, like, you made me a better person. Oh, for me, the reason I've grown so heavily in my relationship and vice for it is the safety that was created between the two people to then explore other avenues of who I am as a person and who they are as a person. Yeah.

That is how I've changed as a person. and he has changed for the best. And I want to just normalize that. It's not about muscling your way through of like, oh, he's the guy that has a thousand women or the girl that I can have any girl, I can get her. That's not changing somebody. Right.

The real change is they're growing and evolving into a better version of themselves. And to me, that comes in that intimacy. And it occurs within this container of commitment. Yes. You know, which I'm not sure is possible to have the kind of transformation relationship that you're referring to,

with a situation ship or something more casual because what you're really saying is that in it went by safe by committed what we mean is you're not going to run when this gets hard exactly and when I'm deconstructing and disintegrating you know which she has imperfect oh yeah oh yeah those and and back to what we talked about earlier is like and you have to accept those parts right like because if I can't why would my partner be like oh I love those parts to you and I'm like they're fucking terrible. It's like, well, how did you want this to work if you don't genuinely love yourself? And they're so often connected to the parts of you that you probably do love about yourself and that are great. You know, I was talking about, you know, being very optimistic and enthusiastic

and outgoing earlier. I also know that in my past relationships that I have been inadvertently, and it doesn't even matter that it was inadvertently because I was still this way, insensitive, you know um like like looking at like the next thing like not slowing down like there were all these ways big ways and little ways that I hurt the person I was with but I have to own that if I also want to own some of those good good parts as well you know they're all connected and kind of in a weird tangled sort of way no I'm glad you brought that up because it's really important it's like people look they'll see me like oh wow you're so great on camera and you're like well but that's also like a negative too because it's like oh yeah you could be so bubbly and big and

And it's like, yeah, but not that, but in my personal life, that might not always translate. Right. So the pluses that we have could also be minuses. Totally. But I'm glad you brought that up. It's like, it's accepting both sides of the coin. Totally. Can't always be good, good, good.

I'm like, are you kidding me? If everything was just good in life, you get real fucking bored. Yeah, one, you wouldn't. Did you ever see, or the new Netflix show, DeCamp the Manor? I keep doing this. It's not called DeCant. It's like DeManner or something. I don't know.

No. And it was a great show. It's based in 1380 or something, or 13, something like 1,300. That's a fun time period. And so what it's like all of these wealthy nobles and their servants come to this house to try to like celebrate it. And then it's like everything goes awry, of course. But the point being is like these are people have everything. Everything at their beckoning call.

And it's never enough. Because if everything is just handed to you, well, what's the excitement of working towards something? Totally. And that's the, I believe that's the neuropsychology of it too is right. Like having that point B and the feeling of moving from point A to point B is what gives you the dopamine. You know, it is what makes you feel vitalized and alive. And so for some people, the point B is, you know, maybe that next paycheck, you know, or that getting to a place where they feel stable.

But then for other people, if those material circumstances are more stable already, it's like, well, like, I really have to like leave a legacy. I really have to build something. I have to be an entrepreneur. That's why so many people, you know, with money, it's not just about growing the assets in a smart way. It's also like psychologically, this is my understanding of it anyways. But they need another point B.

you know, maybe there's a minority of people that just want to like, you know, lounge around on on yachts and party. But my observation has been the people that have access to that has always been that they end up giving themselves a problem to fix. Money can't buy you happiness, but I mean, it wasn't. It can make your life a little bit easier and the basic needs, right? Like, knowing I don't have to worry about my survival is great. But it's like, and kind of looping it back to dating is like,

and kind of putting a pin in it is like, I had one. client and she rushed a week after they met already in a relationship. And I just kept being like, oh, Jesus, here we go again. Like I saw it and I was like, okay, listen, I can't tell you what to do. Like, choose you're an adventure. And every day after it was a complaint and he's not doing this and he's, and I'm like, no, no, no, but that's the thing. You wanted to rush to relationship land. Yeah. You over, you completely skipped over courtship land, dating land. Do I can, like you were not land? Do I want this? Exclusive. That's so good. Went right to relationship land. And it's like, cool. You go right to relationship. And then she would be upset. Why is me taking me out to

dinner. Well, but you bypassed dating land. Because the reality is it's not about I just need this, then I'll be okay. If then, then this is the most dangerous place you could be. When this, then this. When I get this person, then I'll be happy. Yeah. It ain't going to have them like that. You could get that person all day and your needs still won't be met because it might not have anything to do with them. Yeah. As someone that used to move faster than he currently does in the dating game, one of the things that I've learned a helpful reframe for myself has been when things do move along, and they often do, when you like each other, when they do move along and there's conflict, ask yourself, would this be a big deal if I've been with them for three years?

You know, if they're really focused on work right now and don't have enough time for me, you know, but you've been together for three years, then like, you focus on work, babe. You know, if it's been three weeks, it's like, well, do you even like me anymore? 100%. And so I always find that very helpful, but it's also the argument. against rushing. Which is, I didn't even realize that you do that, because I'll do that inadvertently. I'll be like, okay, so they didn't text me today.

And I'm like, okay, so you're together for two years and you live together. Yeah. You're going to be upset that they didn't text you for that day. It's like, what is it under? Usually when we start to like pull the thread, it's like, I don't feel like a priority. You're like, uh-huh, keep going. It has nothing to do with that inaction or action. It's not about the fucking text.

It's what's under the hood. God, Joe, I could talk to you all goddamn day. My gosh. I wish, too. Thank you for being on. Where can people find you and listen to more? I know you have a podcast and Definitely. Joe Nucci Therapy.com. Those are also my handles on all the socials. I'm most engaged with my Instagram community, but you can find me on TikTok and all the other places as well. And yeah, come check it out. I'm excited. Everything will be linked in the show notes so they won't have to worry about finding you. Perfect. I'm so excited.