The Sabrina Zohar Show - 111: Why Avoidants Push Away What They Want Most With Mark Manson

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

In a conversation with Sabrina, Mark Manson shares insights on navigating relationships from the perspective of an avoidantly attached individual. Drawing from his 12-year marriage, Mark emphasizes the importance of open communication and realistic expectations, especially in long-distance relationships. He advises having clear end goals and intentional conversations about logistics and contact frequency to maintain connection.  Diving into Mark’s own avoidant tendencies, he and Sabrina explain how avoidance often stems from fear rather than lack of care or feelings. Mark highlights the significance of allowing space in relationships and how his wife’s patience helped him transition from avoidant to secure attachment. For anxious partners, they stress the need to become comfortable with an avoidant partner’s need for space, noting that healing happens through gradual trust-building.  Sabrina and Mark agree that understanding different standards and managing expectations are crucial for relationship success. Mark also touches on societal pressures, self-improvement, and the importance of addressing negative self-talk through journaling and mindfulness. Ultimately, they emphasize that thriving in life and love is about embracing challenges and fostering meaningful connections through honesty and self-awareness. Get Mark's book: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck: A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free episodes HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, today we have such a special guest. We have Mark Manson here. Mark is fucking awesome. Like when I started my journey, I had been following Mark. So it was truly just magical to be able to sit with him and we did a pod swap. So you can hear me on his show too, the cell art of not giving a fuck. But today, you know, it's funny. When Mark came on at first I had this old topic I was going to hit and he said one thing was, you know I used to be a male dating coach and that just took. took this episode into one of the best directions I ever could have asked for, and we really debunk all things avoidant from a former avoidant man. So I came right from the horse's mouth, y'all, and I'm really, really excited. So guys, as always, if you need anything, link in show notes, you can join one of the courses, get some free guides, or as always, guys, you have the podcast. Please don't forget to read review the show. Subscribe wherever you're listening to. And don't forget to share it with a friend. It helps us grow. And guys, as well, they've changed the way that they do things on these platforms. Don't forget to auto-download the episodes.

That way you have them fresh in your inbox every morning when they come out and you don't have to go searching for it. Otherwise, these platforms like to take us off of your downloads list and then you lose us forever. Well, you don't lose us forever, but we want to be with you guys along the way. So don't forget, guys. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And babes, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Mark, welcome to the Sabrina Zohar show. It's good to be here.

I'm so excited. There's a lot of pink in the room. Well, for anyone who doesn't know, we're at Mark Studio. And it's now the Sabrina Zohar show. So I'm super excited. It's a takeover, yeah. Fuck yeah. Mark, if you could.

I've been a fan of yours for a long time. But if you could, I like to always just start with, who are you? And if you could just introduce yourself to the audience in your own words. I'm best known for being an author. I wrote The Sutterler and Not Giving a Fuck as well as three other books. But I've also just done this internet thing, quote unquote internet thing for 17 years. So originally a blogger, now podcaster, YouTuber. speaker, all the things.

Fuck yeah. All the things. Well, I really obviously, of course, love your content because you have the same mouth that I do. And we're not afraid as to former people who lived in New York to use the word fuck and not as sparingly. So I'm excited. But today, the really, like, the exciting part for me was to have you here

because I think you can really help our audience. And I think a lot of the stuff that you write about is very in line with what we're going to talk about. And it's really about, like, you know, how do you thrive in life and love when, you're not really feeling like you're thriving right now, you know? It feels really hard to fucking wake up. And I think, you know, for a lot of the predominant amount of the audience,

it's a lot of people that are single. And so there's different, you know, aspects to it. But you've been with your wife for 12 years. 12 years total. Can you share us? Because I know you were talking about it. It's like a fun story. I've been waiting for this story.

I'd love to know because I'm curious like, how did you guys meet? How did that evolve? And like, yeah, was it dais and roses off the bat? Or was it something that was a little bit different and not, you know, the beaten path that I think, people think that the relationship is going to be. Yeah, it's, well, first of all, I met her in a nightclub, the old-fashioned way. Bumping and gradient.

She's Brazilian. I was in, I was traveling in, in South Paulo. Met her in a nightclub at about midnight, and she actually shot me down initially. So I walked up to her, I saw her come in the club, we made eye contact. I was like, goddamn, she's gorgeous. Saw her go to the dance floor. She was with a bunch of friends or whatever. And a few minutes later, I walked up to her, started talking to her.

And she spoke, she speaks really good English now. At the time, she spoke decent English. But it was funny, like, she was doing the one-word answer thing that women do when, like, they don't really want to talk to you, but they're just, they want to be polite. They don't. What? That's so funny. You have no idea what I'm talking about.

Yeah. So she was doing the one-word answer thing, kind of looking around, like, being very distracted. And I was like, okay, she's clearly not. into this at all. And by that point, I was 27, 28. By that point, I was experienced enough and mature enough as a man to understand that if a woman's not initially interested, you're never going to convince her to be interested. Like, just let it go, right? It's fine. It's not personal. Just whatever. Move on. Go talk to the next one. So by that time, I developed a habit of in that situation, I just politely thank her for her time and wish her a good night and move on.

And so I did that. I said, you know, it looks like you want to hang out with your friends. So I hope you have a good night. It was great meeting you. And I like walked away. And she was incredibly impressed by that, especially in Brazil. Like the men are very aggressive and kind of disrespectful. So she was like, wow, I've never seen a guy do that before.

And jump ahead about four hours later. I literally bumped into her on the dance. floor, like was moving and somebody bumped into me and I turned around and it was her. And she was suddenly like way more friendly. It turned out that she had been, she was like being hit on by a creepy guy for like the past two hours. And so then when she saw me, she was like, wait, this guy was really cute. Why did I blow this one off?

What was I doing? Thanks, creepy guy? Yeah, exactly. Thanks, creepy guy. And so we started talking and at the time to, you know, first. For people listening to don't know, I actually started my career as a dating coach. So. You did?

You didn't know this? I didn't know that. I did. Oh, Mark. I was a dating coach for about five years. Oh, men specifically. Yeah. Okay.

We'll get to that. Okay. We'll definitely talk about that. So one of my, whenever I, like, met a woman that was interested, kind of my go-to question at the beginning of the conversation was always, what's your favorite thing in the world? Because, obviously, everybody loves to talk about their favorite thing in the world. And then you immediately find out what they value and what they care about. And you can see if you align on it.

Oh, God. As you were saying, then I was like, dessert. I love ice cream. And then I see what you care about. I'm like, fuck. You shallow bitch. Okay, sorry, go on. And so I was living abroad at the, so I was living nomadic at the time.

I had an online business. I was traveling around the world. I was living in all these different countries. So I was spending three months in Brazil. And I asked her, we started talking in one of the first. first things I asked her, I said, what's your favorite thing in the world? And she immediately said travel. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I've actually been traveling the world the last four years. I've been to 55 countries. And then from there, it was, that was it. That was so rare.

We talked until probably five, six in the morning. Okay. And this is like, I mean, you obviously, dating apps were not in a thing, but obviously you're fucking communication. So you were living there. And then that was it, you guys just kept dating. And then when you were ready to leave, where you're like, hey. So we kept, we kept dating. And then probably like, it got, it was, intense pretty quickly. Okay. But we got like a month in and it was clear like I was

I was going to leave a few weeks later. And so there was kind of this awkward like what are we, what are we going to do? We talked about it. Neither of us had a whole lot of interest in doing some sort of long distance relationship thing. And so it was kind of clear that like

hey this is probably going to end in a couple months and that's sad and that's unfortunate it, but, you know, this was amazing and we really care about each other and everything. And so I left after a couple months and we kept in touch. And as the months went on after I left, I just found myself like talking to her all the time, you know, just messaging her and we would have these great conversations. And then we started having, you know, like Zoom conversations and FaceTimes. And And finally, I was in Columbia, maybe four or five months later, and she was like, you know, I'm going to come up and visit you.

And I was like, okay, great. And so she came up. We spent like maybe a three-day weekend together. And then it was just clear. It was like, okay, we're an idiot if we don't figure out, like, if we don't pursue this. So it was there, we kind of figured it out. She was like, you know, if I save up for a year, I can take a year-long sabbatical and I can travel with you. And I was like, okay, if you do that, I'll come live in Brazil for a year. And so we

agreed on that. And that, like, bought us two years of runway. And so we did that. And then she started traveling with me and then we never stopped. So what I love about this story is a couple of things, more than a couple, but specifically, is I think because we do get a lot of people, like, especially now with dating apps, it's so easy to meet someone that doesn't live there by you. And for me personally, I've never been a fan of long distance of like, oh, well, we met on an app. We talked for six weeks. We met each other once. And now we're going to pursue this.

And you're like, okay, is that realistic? Who has the money? Can you go back and forth? Like, there's a lot of nuance here. But what I love is that you didn't walk in being like, no, I have to make this work. And it has. You surrender. You kind of release control the outcome of like, let's see if this happens.

And if it doesn't, this was beautiful. Because I feel like, not correct me if I'm wrong, that also takes the pressure off so then you can genuinely fucking connect. Absolutely. And the lack of expectation, I think was really important. It's funny, too, because she and I had both been. through long-distance relationships previously. And so I think we had made,

we knew the mistakes that you could make. And we were both very determined to not make those mistakes again with each other. And so we communicated very clearly about that. Like she would tell me, she was like, you know, when I did long distance with this guy, this is all the things that went wrong and why it went wrong.

And I had similar stories, right? And so we shared those with each other and then we were able to kind of navigate. And honestly, just be really, realistic about, I think, again, at that point, I was 28, she was 30, we had both been in enough relationships at that point to kind of be adults and understand, like, just because you love somebody doesn't mean it's going to work out. And just because you're great together doesn't mean you necessarily should be together. And that there are other things that

you need to like make sure and check and before you jump in head first. 100%. Real quick. Yeah. Let's talk about those. things that you did in long distance that didn't work. Because I, like for me, okay, I've done the long distance thing. People ask every fucking day. Please do an episode on long distance. And I'm like, okay, I'm cynical. So I'm going to come at this of like, it doesn't work.

I don't like this. Because I've had negative experiences. But I would be curious as somebody who actually has had like experiences where like, I tried this. What did you see work? What didn't work? Like, I'm genuinely curious of like your experiences with that. The number one thing that I think about long distance relationships is there

has to be an end point. There has to be a plan to get out of the long distance, right? Like, what I have found is that if there's a couple and they're like, you know what, we're doing this for two years, but then he's going to finish school and then he's going to move back or I'm going to move over there and change jobs or whatever. As long as there's an end date, you can make it. Yeah. If there's no end date, if there's no game plan, if it's just like, well, he's two thousand miles away and we talk every night. It's going to go nowhere. And especially like one friend I had and she, she and her husband were long distance, I think, for on and off for 10 years. Like they were together for like 10 or 12 years.

And it was always like, a job would take one away and, you know, things like that. And the one thing she always said, she was like a couple of things. One, she was like, remember, it's not that it's his place or her place or your place, Bays, whoever we are. She was like, it's that you both have a place. You know, so like, let's say Brazil and let's say you were here in L.A. Okay, boo, you guys have a place in Brose. Brazil in LA. It's not I'm going to her place and she's coming to mine. Right. That the end game, have a fucking end game. There's no use and just this inevitable like I'll get the, you know, we both have three kids and we work a job and like we don't even have the time, but like I really

want to make this work. And it's like, I mean, anything short of growing another version of you. Yeah. So that you can then maintain your life, there isn't a reality here. But the other aspect that I thought was really important and I was curious to see if you guys had done this, where she was like, every time we left each other, we had plans to see each other again. And she was like, we were clear about not just the. like, can you see ya? Totally. Yeah, I mean, you really have to, there's a logistical side of it. That is actually hugely important. It's not romantic. It's not sexy. But you really do have to have these boring logistical conversations of like pulling out your calendars and being like, okay,

what weekend can you make work? And okay, what about November? What does that look like for you? And like, I can come for three days, but it's going to be weird. My mom's going to be it. And it's like, okay, well, we'll figure it out when that happens. It's not sexy or fun or romantic. You're not going to see it in any movie, but that's the nuts and bolts that's required. And I think the communication, I think communicating expectations as well is extremely important in terms of like, how often are you going to talk on the phone? How often, like if you text them and they don't respond for a day, is like, is that going to be a problem? Or, you know, how often do you want to be in contact? How often do you want to be checking in with each other? How often do you expect phone

for each other. If you're not clear about that as well, then you're just going to have a bunch of very preventable fights along the way. 100%. And same with like, even also knowing I would imagine like you, what are your threshold is that you're accepting? You know, I had some people right in saying, you know, oh, well, I want to like the person I'm dating, he's going out to dinner with a woman and I'm not okay with this. And it's like, yeah, if I were on the receiving end of that, I'd be like, I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to go out to dinner with a friend. Like that's two of like understanding as well that, Like you said, just because you might care about each other, just because you love each other,

doesn't necessarily mean you're right for each other. Yeah. But I think when it comes to long distance, especially, because, yeah, you do have an added, I mean, you have a fucking literal wedge in between. You can't just say, hey, I'm coming over. Oh, I'll see you in an hour. And I think especially those with like that high anxiety, I can't see this being a positive at the end. I think that's, it's a really good point.

Like, you can definitely survive jealousy in person, but in long distance, if one or both people are very jealous, you're not going to have a good time. It doesn't sound it. No, it's not going to go well. Did you ever have that? Yes. And it fucking sucked. Like it was, you know, this was back in the Facebook days.

Oh, the days. You know, so it would be something like, I don't know, like a friend of mine would post photos of me at a party and tag me and it's, you know, it's me drinking and there's like two or three girls next to me. Next thing I know, I'm getting messages, like, who's this girl? Who is she? How do you know her? How long were you there?

What time did you go home? You know, I'm like, I don't, I don't know. When you seem, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem so much more secure, right? Like, I don't get, and is that something that you would feel like you resonated or did you more so go lean a different way? I mean, over the years you've grown. I was very avoidant. Okay. For a long time, yeah. Interesting.

How did that manifest for you? Because if it's different slightly for everybody. I like literally got on planes and went to another country. I feel like, remember that nomadic thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That wasn't a coincidence. Okay, curious, though, when you met your wife, what shifted for you? Or were you at that point ready?

Because I think this is an important question we need to clarify for people listening. Like, he's avoided. I can change him. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. You can't. I mean, you can definitely influence. And if the person is aware of their insecurity and their issues and already working on it, you can contribute and help.

But if he's not, A, not aware of his insecurity. security issues and be not willing to work on it, there's nothing you can do. I mean, that's just true with everybody, like, no matter what issue is going on. But for me personally, I had a long history of avoidance was a very, in my previous relationships was, you know, in my teens and early 20s was just a very unavailable boyfriend. I would kind of freak out a lot and push away. I was unfaithful a number of times. And then when I became single in my 20s and I started this whole nomadic thing, I mean, at first it was just, it felt like the world was my playground.

I mean, I basically go to a new country every couple months, go out and party every other night, meet a bunch of local girls. I was having fun. It was great. You know, and then any time I start to like feel too close to somebody, it's like, oh, well, you know, my visa is expiring and time to go. The cab is here. The flight is going.

Yeah, have a nice life. Were you aware of it? Like, prior to that, were you cognizant of like, oh, I think I'm pushing your way because I'm going to use you for this second because it's interesting for me to understand inside the brain outside of my partner, who's the only other like avoidant and I can really pick, prior. It was somebody who has that avoidant tendency. Yeah.

I think the question we hear all the time is like, well, don't they know? I don't understand. How do they not see it? Why won't they let me in? And I'm curious from your perspective, that's all we really have right now. Were you really conscious? Like, were you seeing it in these relationships where you're like, hey, I'm shutting. down, I'm pushing this person away, or was it significantly more subtle than that?

I was definitely aware of it. What people have to understand is that an avoidant doesn't see it as a bad thing. It's neither too anxious. Yeah, because it's, it's, you know, yeah, anxious, anxious people suffer. Like, you're kind of constantly on this emotional roller coaster and you're constantly suffering. As an avoidant person, I like being alone. Like I enjoy being by myself and so to me there's like not there wasn't a whole lot of downside on top of that I'm having this fun exciting life I'm dating all these interesting people

I'm going all these different countries learning about their cultures I was having a great time and I think part of it you know I was vaguely aware of it at the time but I think I kind of justified it because I'm like, you know, I'm young. Yeah. I'm in my 20s. This is, if there's any time in my life to kind of just go wild and have all these experiences, this is the time to do it. There's always going to be time to settle down later. So I didn't feel particularly pressured or any incentive to like deal with it or address

with it. What changed is that after probably three or four years, of kind of doing the nomad bachelor lifestyle, it started to become unsatisfying. Yeah. Like what actually what started happening is I started meeting, there were probably two or three women that I met that I really liked and then I had to go. Yeah. And at that point it was like, you know, visas expiring.

Like it is, it was actual I have to go. Like legally I have to go or I have to like start paying taxes here. And that was really hard. And then, you know, in some of the places it was, it was difficult because it's like, yeah, you kind of keep in touch with them. But it, they have their own lives and then they go meet another guy, a local guy. And some of the countries, it's like, I'm probably never going to go back there. Right. So it, it started to become a little bit disappointing and dissatisfying.

And by the time I met my wife, I was already in that place a little bit where I was like, you know, this isn't sustainable. At some point, I need to be willing to compromise. And it's funny because I remember it, there was, the last time it happened was probably three or four months before I met my wife. I met a woman. And I remember after that experience, I, like, told myself, I'm like, the next time I'm going to be willing to compromise. Even if it, like, freaks me out, I'm at least going to give it a shot because, like, I can't keep doing this. This is killing me. And so by the time I met my wife, I was like, okay, why don't I max out my visa here in Brazil?

And then let's see where it goes, right? Like, give it a chance at least. Like, be willing to work with her and then see what happens. To me, that's the epitome of, like, talk about proximity and timing, right? Because, like, my mom, since I was a kid, my mom would always say, like, sure, you can love somebody. But if you're not in the right place in your life or in the proximity, this ain't going to happen. Absolutely. And because you're very similar. You're my partner. Like he was very just like super avoid just like, well, I don't need that.

Traveling everywhere. And then when we met, he said the same thing. He was like, I was ready. Like I just kind of knew I was done with this like avoidance bachelor lifestyle. Yeah. Start doing the work. And to me, I was like, yeah, if we had met a year prior, like if you had met your wife prior to that. We'd talk about that all the time. Yeah. Would have just been on the next flight. Absolutely. And so I think it's just we have to put a pin of how important proximity and timing is in someone's life that if you meet somebody. Now, I am not a fan of right person among time. what makes them a right person is that they're there at the right time right sure yeah i could have met like i have so many people in the past they're like man that was amazing right what a connection just didn't didn't pan out that doesn't mean i don't love my partner that doesn't mean that i discredit that wasn't in a place in my life for this yeah so i think it's just i love to exemplify the importance

and i think your story is so fucking clear and critically understanding that it doesn't matter how amazing you or it doesn't matter how amazing they are if that person's not ready and willing being able to see you and receive you you could dance and star like i mean i would be curious how How many women try to change your mind? Uh-huh. I mean, some. But it's as an avoidant, anytime a woman starts trying to change my mind,

I'm like, oh, I'm out of here. Thanks for proving my point. Yeah, I'm like, I'm not even going to listen to this. My favorite part is I just can see, what we call a tech guy is my partner. I could see him in the corner just like laughing and shaking his head because I think it's important. Like people have heard me talk about it,

but it's important to hear it from somebody. You're not a bad person. There's nothing wrong with you. You're not doing this to be mean. And we have such a villainization of avoidance that it hurts me to see. Because I'm like, you guys are good people. You just handle things differently. Yeah, you have to understand too that avoidant, it's like a lot of the women I bailed on.

I actually really liked and cared about them. Like it wasn't even that I didn't like them. It wasn't that I wasn't attracted to them. It wasn't that I didn't care about them or that I didn't even have feelings for them. Like most of them I did. It's just two things. One is it, the more that those feelings arose, the more it would kind of freak me out. And then two, I was in that place in my life where I'm like, yeah, I'm not ready for this.

Like this isn't, I can't do this yet. Not quite. And it wasn't, so this is going to sound trite, but it wasn't personal. It really wasn't personal. I dated a lot of great women that, to your point, if I met, at another time of my life, very easily could have ended up with them. Right. But it wasn't, I wasn't personally, like, ready for that or mature enough to handle it.

Anytime I hear the, like, was I not enough for them? I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I'm like, okay, let's flip the script. Imagine you're dating, you're going to date with somebody and you're like, I'm not feeling it. And they're saying, but was I not good enough? You're like, what? That has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, yeah. Because anytime I hear that, because like, yeah, I definitely was in that day. like when I was really in my anxious brain, because that's my core belief, right? I don't think I'm enough. And so when I meet someone that's unavailable, you're like, see? It's like, well, yeah, because he was on a plane. Like, the writing was on the wall.

It really isn't about you. Now, it's not. Sometimes it can be, right? But that doesn't mean that that's that person's attachment style. That could just mean that you're not a match. Sure. But I think, I don't know, I was just really excited to jump on this bandwagon with you. And I'm curious because when I asked Ryan about his process to move on from,

because people ask all the time, like you talk about that. anxiety to secure, but what about going from avoidance to secure? And Ryan had a spreadsheet. He had like a whole thing. That's his tech brain. He had a process of like, you know, challenging. But what was yours in the moments? I'm genuinely curious. Like I would imagine when you first met your wife, you were triggered, you were feeling like you want to shut down or like this is uncomfortable. I don't want to do this. Was there anything specific that you like implemented or worked on or that really helped? Because I think for anybody also listening that's dating someone more avoidant, how can we support in that journey?

So I can think of two things. One is mostly on her, and then one was something I did. So she was great about it. I, she and I haven't talked about it in these terms, but I assume that some of the previous guys she dated, she's dated avoidance before me. So, because she just seemed to kind of intuitively know how to react and deal with it. But it's, you know, she and I had some very frank conversations.

And I was very open about, you know, my insecurities and my issues and all that. And she was very understanding. She was non-judgmental about it. And she just kind of understood that, like, if I started to get weirded out and needed space or needed to get away, she just let me have it. Yeah. Right? Because, and I guess this is probably an important thing to understand about an avoidant.

If an avoidant, like, feels a need to get away, let them get away. Because what will happen is if they really like you, they'll start missing you. And they'll be like, wait, why did I? Why did I get away? She's really cool. What am I doing over here? And then they'll come back on their own. You're like, but I liked her.

Yeah. But if you chase them, you're just reaffirming their insecurity. Yeah. You're just feeding into their anxiety further. And so they're just going to run even faster. So it's a little bit of a paradoxical thing. And she was very good about like if I needed space, she'd let me have it. She wouldn't judge.

She wouldn't be harsh or create drama or anything. So that was very much on her. The thing that I did, you know, I, by that point, I was able to look back at my previous relationships and realized that I had kind of blown them up for really stupid reasons and basically looking for an escape hatch. I was like trying to invent escape hatches. And by the time I got to my wife, I was like, you know what? This is really great.

Like she's very, very special. it's okay if it doesn't work, but if it doesn't work, it can't be for a dumb reason. It can't be because I like made, like I invented some drama in my head and got upset over something stupid or behaved in a very stupid and disrespectful way. Like if it doesn't work with her, it needs to be for a legit reason. And so in those first couple years, I definitely had bouts of anxiety and periods where I was like, oh my God, what am I doing here? I got to get out.

I got to go somewhere. I got to like bang other girls. You know, like start like, you know, scratching my neck. Like, oh. And I would just kind of remind myself like, all right, dude, it's okay. You're feeling this. Don't do anything stupid.

Like it's, and sometimes I would even have to go kind of through this thought process. Because one of the things that happens when you're avoiding as well is, I mean, we like to think that we're rational creatures, but like, really our brains just kind of justify whatever we're feeling, right? So as an avoidant, when you start just having this intense, unconscious need to get away from somebody, your brain starts inventing reasons to get away from them. You start, like, spotting. I even noticed it to a certain point where, like, women that I, like, who are objectively gorgeous, when I was, when my avoidance was triggered, I would, they would appear ugly to me. Oh yeah.

Like physically look ugly to me. And I was certain noticing every imperfection, like anything, any, anything in their behavior that was like just even slightly awkward or distasteful, like, it would just be magnified times 100. And when I was younger, I used to react to that. I used to think that that was real. And, but by the point, by the time I got to my wife, I realized I'm like, no, this is just my brain.

with me. This is just a fun house mirror that happens when I started getting freaked out. And so when those moments would come, I would just remind myself, I'm like, this isn't real. This isn't real. It's going to pass. Don't blow this up for a stupid reason. Make sure it's a good reason. And sometimes I would even journal and go through. I'm like, okay, why am I thinking about ending my relationship? And I would like list, like start listing out the reasons. And I'm like, okay, are these reasons a rational person would have. And I'm like, nope, nope, nope. Okay, never mind. Close the journal. I appreciate the challenging thoughts. It's so funny to hear you say that as someone who had more avoidance because on the anxious flip, notice how it's both of them are like secure people, right?

The person that you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this would be good for me, not the super anxious girl who's super avoiding guy. And it's the same thing, you're like, oh, his jeans are too tight. And it's like, you thought he was sexy. No, no, no, no. That hair. line is going and I can see I lost a hit it's gone. Yeah. And you'll find anything. And I think because a lot of people will ask, well, how do I know the difference? And it's like, you can tell the difference between saying, you know, when I'm with this person, I don't feel safe. I don't feel emotionally safe or the, you know, versus finding something of like, he has a Velcro wallet. And you're like, you guys, the icks are getting out of hand. Yeah. But I wanted to, I did want to ask you something else.

When you were coaching men specifically, because I didn't realize that you were like, like predominantly that. Were you noticing anything specific? Because we hear so many, like all of the, a lot of the content and things that we have, it's but a women perspective. Right. And then we'll get the red pill men of like, women belong in the kitchen and you're like next. Yeah. But from someone who's significantly more rational, like level-ended, I would be curious, what did you see from their perspective? I think this episode is really beautiful because we get to hear another perspective in a totally different thought process. That's not that different. It's just a male version of me and I'm fucking stoked about that. But I would, love to know when you were working with these men and you were in this world, like, what were you hearing that the frustrations and things that they were struggling with? And is there anything that we can offer the audience, especially if it's the female audience listening or male, if you're dating men, that would be able to help because I think we're still not understanding a lot of things. Yeah, from my perspective, I personally believe that men and women both have very legitimate frustrations in dating. The problem is, is that the things that are

frustrating the women and the things that are frustrating the men tend to be opposite of each other. Or like they tend to be things, like the things that are frustrating the men are things that women don't have to deal with. And the things that are frustrating the women are things that men don't have to deal with. So they kind of talk past each other. They don't realize that the other one is suffering as well. And on the male side, it's really simple. And it's the simple fact that men by and large are socially and culturally expected to initiate everything. And to initiate anything, you have to put your reputation on the line, put your emotions on the line, make yourself vulnerable, expose yourself to rejection, expose yourself to embarrassment in front of your

peers. And that's really fucking hard. And so most, I would say probably at least 50% of the clients I had when I was a dating coach, it was just pure anxiety. It was like, I don't know how to talk to a woman. I'm attracted. I get too nervous. Like I'm literally, I'm literally, really scared to talk to her. Because what if she says this? What if she makes fun of my hair? What if she likes my friend more than me? You know, like, it's all these things.

And so with men, it's a lot of the work is just courage. Yeah. It's just like, it doesn't fucking matter, dude. Like, just shoot your shot. If it misses, it misses. It happens to all of us, right? It's just kind of reassuring them that it's going to be okay. On the female side.

So to that point, a lot of those men, a lot of men who are very frustrated in their day in romantic lives, they look at women and they're like, well, every cute girl I know gets, can like be with any guy she wants. She gets approached all the time. Like, 50 guys swipe right on her all the time, right? Like, it must be so easy to be a woman. This is so unfair. Oh, my God, women are so spoiled and entitled. Like they do, you know, and so you can, I can see what leads down that path. Yeah.

Like, and I've seen, I've watched a lot of men go down that path. And I've tried to pull a lot of men back from that path. But it's, I also, I also sympathize with why they end up there. Because it does seem unfair. Like if you're the type of guy who is so anxious and scared to open your mouth in front of a woman that you're attracted to, and then you see that same woman get hit on by, you know, a dozen douchebags. who treat her like shit, and then watch her complain that every guy she meets treats her like shit. Like, of course you're going to be better.

Of course you're going to be better. So I understand that. What men don't understand is that the female frustration is that, yes, you are constantly exposed to men who are attracted to you. But you have no choice over the men you're exposed to. You don't get to decide which douchebag comes up to you at the bar. You don't get to decide. You don't get to decide the, you know. Six-five dude that comes up and corners you in a bar and you're like, fuck, okay, let me just be polite.

Right. Like, how do I get out of this? Am I going to be assaulted? Is he going to follow me? Like, is he, you know, what the fuck is going on here? Right? Like, men don't understand that aspect of it. And then I think women look at men.

They're like, wow, men never have to worry about them. Yeah. Men never have to worry about, like, a guy following him to his car. Like, men don't ever have to worry about, like, being physically overpowered. or, you know, being hit or, you know. Walking alone on the street at night. Exactly, right? Little things that I see my partner who are, you guys have similar stature.

And I look, I'm like, what does it feel like to just be able to leave the house and not have to worry about, is my chest showing, as my butt out, are my clothes too tight? Am I going to get hit on by this person? Shit, it's dark at night. I don't feel comfortable. Now this guy's following me. It's like, there's a lot of variables. Absolutely.

So men don't see that. And women suffer and struggle a lot with that. and they see that men don't deal with that and they're like, wow, it must be so easy to be a guy. They're so lucky. They have it so easy. Why are they complaining, right? So I just feel like the sexes like don't see where the other one is struggling.

But to answer your question of like what I, the biggest one was courage and anxiety. And then the other one, and this is like, this is kind of sad, but it's true. The other one was just social skills. Like a lot, I can't tell you how many guys I worked with who are like genuinely really good guys smart, successful, like went to a good school, have a good job. A lot of them even like a lot of them were good looking and never had a girlfriend, never had any sort of romantic experience, socially awkward, shy. A lot of them, I had a lot of like doctors and lawyers who were like, I was studying 80 hours a week for the last 15 years. So I just literally never went on. on a date because I didn't have time.

It's like a rest of development almost. Absolutely. You're like stuck at that. And so they're 30, but they have like the social skills of an 18 year old. And so it was kind of my job be like, okay, so, you know, here's socializing 101. God. And so it's wild. We haven't, like we don't think about that, right?

Especially us being social creatures that are like, yeah, people do struggle with that. Yeah. It's so interesting. To your point, 100%. I see so many similar things. And I think you put it so well that the sexes really don't. And, like, of course, obviously same sex. I hear you.

I get it. I got my gaze. I love my gaze. Don't get me wrong. I get it. It's hard. Two men? Okay.

Two women, like I understand. Two they, whatever pronoun, I don't give a shit. I respect you. Two humans coming together. It doesn't matter. You're going to have your shit. And so it's going to be a struggle. What I really see is like you're to your point is I see, I'll see the inside of the men, right?

Because I do have, I've quite a lot of male clients. And then I've got my females. And I'll see my females predominantly dealing with. with this like, they don't want, I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. Why don't they want me? But I'm trying and I'm doing everything. Why won't he just let me in?

And you're like, oh, okay. Let's work on that. Then I'll get the guys, and I try to explain this to the audience from like, you don't hear what they're telling somebody of this, just this confusion of like, you know, I don't want to, like, do Ikeana Reeves and just like not touch them? Because I don't want them to feel inappropriate. Do I pursue? Am I pursuing too much? Is she interested or is she playing a game? I don't really understand how to read this.

or then I'll get the like stage five clinger where they're like hey yeah I went on two dates with this girl and she's saying I was like physically like mentally abusive to her and you're like what? Yeah. And so it's it's a lot of I think what we really see is that like both parties are dealing with their own shit. Yeah. Same with anxious. Avoid and give a fuck. Everybody is dealing with their own stuff. And I feel like I was like that one quote of stuff like if you knew how often people project onto you, oh, you take things way less fucking personally.

Yeah. Absolutely. It is wild. Okay. I have a couple of questions that I'm going to get into a lightning round, but I wanted to take another couple at the avoidant aspect just because you're... I'd love your thoughts on this. Or even if you just have anything that you want to share. Because the number one thing that I get from, again, most of the audience is predominantly anxious. That's the people that come because, you know, when you're anxious, you're like, this hurts, I want to heal it. Yeah. The avoidant, like you said, the avoidant, people are like, I don't know, this feels pretty good.

I can just be alone, right? Just go play some video games. Yeah. Tills. So, and I think like, anytime, you know, Ryan and I'll be like, anyway, I mean, you know, even live. And it's like people are always asking questions of like, one, you know, can I get them to change? Well, we know that you can't. But I think what I'd be curious is there any last bit of feedback or tips or anything you'd like to give the audience of like, hey, okay, so if you're somebody that's going to date somebody more avoidant, you've got to understand outside of the space,

either it be like, have hobbies outside of this, like have your own life, be focused on you. What is there anything that we can kind of leave the audience with on dating people that are avoidant so that we can remove some of the stigma and just help a little bit more to have real relationships? Because if I listen to the clickbait on the internet, I wouldn't be with my partner. Yeah. If I had listened because we hooked up on the first date, we met on hand, I was like, I'm not going to see this guy again. And he was more avoidant. He wasn't texting every day, you know? And I think that maybe we can even just touch on that of like there's this, it's just one text.

And why don't they just text me? I don't understand. And it's like right off the bat, even hearing that. not about the text. Right. But I would be curious just what you've seen, especially in that world, anything we can offer on this? I think it's just important to be aware that your standards and expectations for things like communication, for intimacy, for doing things together. Like, everybody has a different standard around that stuff. And avoidant is generally going to be, their standard is going to be much lower. Right? So to an avoidant, a text a day feels like a lot.

Right? And it's not that they don't know it. Yeah, and it's not that they don't like you. It's not that they don't care. It's not that they're not thinking about you. It's just like that's a lot, right? And it's, it's, so it's, again, it's not personal. And then I, I just think that the most important thing you can do is learn to be comfortable. If somebody is pulling away from you, learn to be comfortable allowing them to do it. Because one of two things is going to happen. Either they're going to disappear, in which case they're doing you a favor, because it was never going to work anyway. Or two, they're going to come back and they're going to feel more comfortable and secure because they were able to have that space when they needed it. They felt comfortable having that space. They feel comfortable coming back. And that is the actual healing process for the avoidant. It's seeing that like, oh, okay, I can freak out when things get too close, but nothing goes wrong.

Like, there's no fire to put out. There's no drama. Airplane didn't fall from the sky. We're not going to fight about it. Like, it's okay. it's going to be fine and over time that becomes less and less like i don't i don't feel a need to get away from my wife anymore i haven't in a long time i don't i don't in fact now if i'm away from her for like more than a couple days i fucking miss her like crazy you know so like it's over

time that that need to get away that need for space that need for isolation or uh being alone like it becomes less and less and until it's just not there anymore we hurt in relationships we heal in relationships. I know when my partner and I first started dating, I shared the story before, but like it would literally be if I stayed over, which we didn't do sleepovers very often. I don't sleep well in someone else's bed. So for anyone who asks, I am the one who wants to sleep on my own bed. It's not because it's like a new thing. But I remember like it would be Saturday. I'm like, oh, I got a Saturday night. I get to sleep over on a Saturday night. Like, cool. We can just like lounge all day on Sunday. Do nothing. Nope. At 1159, it was like my bag was packed. The stuff was

by the door and I'd be like, oh, you, you folded my laundry for me. And it was like he, 12 o'clock on the dot, like, I need you to go. Yeah. And at first, I could have totally taken that personally. And the first couple of times you're like, I kind of feel like a brothel. Like this is a little weird. Like it's a time up. But then I, like you said, I was just like, okay. And I let him have the space. And then inevitably, I think after like another couple of months when it was time to, hey, I want you to be my girlfriend. I brought it up. And I said, listen, you want me all of these things, but yet you push me away when I try to get close to you. And that was the conversation of, You're right. Yeah, okay. And so then 12 o'clock turned it to three o'clock. And then at three o'clock

it's time to go home. And then three o'clock turned into six. And then it turned into the next day. And then it turned into three days together. Because to your point, anytime he said, like, babe, I need the space or like, I need to be alone, you got it. I don't need to argue with you. The issue that I have with anybody, I don't care what your attachment style is if you don't communicate. Like, hey, I need a day. Right. I was curious. Like, when you would need the space, would you communicate like, I just need 24 hours alone? Because I get that a lot. Well, people right in and say like the guy said like he just needs a break and it's been like two weeks you're like two weeks and this person needs a break already and you haven't heard from them in four days yeah that's not a

break that's a breakup exactly it's like that's that yeah yeah because i was like to me any more than 24 hours you're like all right come on yeah just get a fucking pair let's let's talk yeah okay yeah i mean i mean i would always communicate that and it was fine i mean it was even still to this day i mean there are there are days where i'm like you know i just kind of want to like play video games and watch football I don't really want to talk to you. You know, I don't put it in those terms, but like she understands that it's not personal and it's, you know, it's whatever. So it's, I mean, I'm a huge proponent in general of just uncomfortable on, like when in doubt, uncomfortable honesty all the time for everything. And, and preferably if possible, try not to, like, try not to ever attach judgment or blame to any of the honesty.

I mean, back when I was a nomad, one of the things I learned pretty quickly. is when I went to a country and I meet a girl, I learned to just tell her immediately. Yeah. This is the deal. I'm here for six weeks. I'm probably never going to come back. If that's a deal breaker for you, I totally get it.

But if you want to have fun for six weeks, let's do it. There we are. And sure enough, about 50% of the women were like, yeah, I'm not on board with that. And I was like, cool, great meeting you, right? And ultimately, it saved me so much pain and heartache and fights and arguments and and drama, saved her so many, so much wasted time. Like, just be honest. Just say what you need and say it in a way that, like, you're not judging or blaming the other person. And like, that's like the 20 that solves 80% of the issues. And to your point, thank you for saying that

because what you exemplify is that like being avoidant, right, it's not an excuse for bad behavior. You can't, it's not an excuse to be like, well, they just don't communicate. It's like, again, that's not somebody who has avoidant attachment style because notice how you would want to leap when it would get. Intimacy was getting. to close. Like there was a trigger. It wasn't just, you know, I've had people right in where they're like, I asked for a hug and he called me clingy and told me that like I'm too needy. And it's like, that's not anxious. That's an asshole. That's an asshole. That's an asshole. That's just a dick. And it's like, we need to, I think also that's why I'm glad we're having this conversation because

avoidant detachment is when you're triggered, right? Like, it's not just out of nowhere being like, I don't want to talk to you right now. And you're like, what? Yeah. But I just asked you what table you want to sit at. So, okay. Lightning round. Welcome to speed dating. All right. You are kicking this off, by the way. Okay. Because normally, because normally, I just ask questions along and I'm like, no, we're going to go on a speed date. Okay. So I'm going to ask you, first thoughts, I'm curious. And these were, these were audience right-ins. So these are people that really wanted your thoughts on this about how to be okay being the single friend. All else in my life is great, but being single just seems to hurt. How do you handle being the

only single person, especially like friends and family, everybody is coupled up? I mean, I would ask why do you feel judged? Like, why do you feel like you're being measured by that metric. It's funny because I, again, as an avoidant, I never understood this because I always liked being single and by myself. But I've never understood like the, and again, I think there's a lot more cultural pressure on women to measure yourself by your relationship status, to measure yourself worth by your relationship status. I think there's a lot of cultural pressure for men to measure their self-worth by their sexual experience and women to measure their self-worth by their romantic situation.

And I think both are stupid. Like, I don't, neither one makes sense to me, right? So, and I think both are unhealthy in their own way. So if you're happy, I mean, the best way to find a good person is to be happy by yourself. So it's like just work on being happy by yourself. Spoiler alert to anybody who's listening. I was her. I was the one that everybody else was coupled.

And I was always the single one at the parties. And I was always the single one going. My sister had been married since she was 19. Like she met her husband. They've been together for 20 years. Everybody else. And I was always a single friend. Yes.

Was it shitty? Was it sad? Yeah. I have a partner now and I get to bring them along. It's not like all of a sudden you're like, oh my God. My life is perfect. Yeah. It's like don't get me wrong.

I love it. You're still battling your own shit. You're just now not going alone to a party. You just have a partner that you're going to a party with. Well, and guess what? Bringing your partner to a party introduces its own problems and frustrations as well. So you're kind of just trading one problem for another one. That's one way to look at it. Okay. So how do I remember what I truly want and love when work or love sucks?

I think we just have a lot of people like loneliness was the number one thing that people wrote in of like, how do I get past this? I feel so lonely. And I wanted to ask your thoughts on that because we've been there. Yeah. You know, when everything feels like it's shit. Yeah. How do you hold on? Yeah. What was this specific question? How do I remember what I truly want and love when everything sucks pretty much? I think there's a lot of value in thinking back to the things that you loved when you were young, when you were a kid or a teenager. Things that, like, if you think back to your childhood, like, what were the things that you would just do for hours? Not because anybody told you to do it.

Not because it was like for a school project or there was any sort of like validation or any, like, what did you just get lost in as a child? and try to remember that and maybe go back and revisit that. I think generally what happens, and this is particularly true, I think codependent people are more prone to this, is that there's so much social pressure and exposure to different social incentives, to be a certain person or to achieve a certain thing or to impress certain people.

We get so wrapped up in those things and we do them for such a long time that we actually forget who we are ourselves, that like what we actually like when nobody else is around. And oftentimes, like, I run into people who have like literally gone decades without actually doing something for themselves.

And so for somebody like that, it is a very difficult challenge to get back and find that. And I think the step one is to perhaps cut off some of that social exposure and maybe not expose yourself to so much stimulation or validation. And in step two is just like really try to remember who you were when you were young and

experiment with some things. I'll tell you this. You think all this pink is an accident? No, this is, as you're saying, I was like, oh, yeah, you mean all that? Because that's how I found myself was like, what did I love that people made fun of me for when I was a kid? What did I have to hide as myself, right? Like, my siblings all made fun of me being like, you're preppy and you like all this pink.

And, you know, they're all like grungy kids and everybody wore black. And then there was me and I was like color and bright. Yeah, I hid that part of myself for all. while and it's like, let your freak flag fly. When you got an adult and I can buy all this shit. Okay, another couple. Okay, how this I think would, I think you'll be honest this. Yeah.

How to stop negative self-talk when it's become a habit. Mm-hmm. Those loops are fucking gnarly. Yeah. I think this is what I've personally found. I think, you know, mileage may vary for different people. But I think for negative self-talk, journaling is, is anytime I think you need to challenge. your basic assumptions or like preconceived notions, I find journaling to be the best tool to do that.

Because what you can do is you can write out your assumption and then you can go back and be like, okay, in what ways could this be wrong? What would it mean if this was wrong? What am I missing here? What would what would have to be true for the opposite, you know, to be the case? And you can you can do all those mental exercises and write them out and see what that looks like. And what I personally find is that often the act of doing that of writing it out, you start to realize how just absurd and ridiculous it is. And so then the next time those thoughts come up, you're like, oh, it's these thoughts again. Why are these thoughts here, right?

You gain a little bit of separation from them. And it's until you have that separation from them that you're not just buying into them every time they pop up, you're not really going to be able to eliminate them. Totally. For me, it was hard. Like, journaling love it because that. activates a different part of the brain. If I'm thinking it, I'm going into a thought. But if I'm writing it, you're like, oh, I'm putting pencil to pen or pencil to paper or whatever the fuck it is.

But also, like, even just acknowledging, like, yeah, I'm having a negative thought right now. Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing, too. I mean, meditation is really good for this is, like, developing the ability to observe thoughts without necessarily believing them. Yeah. I mean, spoiler alert, like half the shit you think is just nonsense, right? And so it's... I'm going to go 90% for me, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, a lot of thoughts arise in your brain that are completely irrational and untrue and ridiculous. So I personally found meditation very useful for developing the ability to spot those thoughts as they go by and be like, oh, look, it's that nonsense negative thought again.

Like a cloud. Yeah, and you let it go. Okay. Last question. This is a therapist who was a fan of yours and she wrote in. And she said, a lot of people, I've been talking about this a lot with my clients and a lot of people confused thriving as life is great. There are no problems. How can the two work in tandem? And she really wanted your thoughts on this of like, how can we bridge the gap? Because it's true. I think we see it as like, oh, it's either there's no issues or life sucks. And you're like, there's a Venn diagram.

Yeah, yeah. In the subtle art, I write something like improving your life isn't about getting rid of your problems. Improving your life is about replacing problems you don't like having with problems you do like having, right? An easy example, right? Is like, I don't know what you did. Oh, you did fashion before this, right? I'm assuming this is an upgrade. Oh yeah. Yeah. So having a podcast, plenty of fucking problems, plenty of stress, plenty of anxiety, plenty of issues to sort through and deal with, right?

But you would much rather have those stresses, anxieties, and problems than the previous stress is anxieties and problems. So you haven't actually gotten rid of your stress and anxiety and problems. You've just found better ones, right? And that, like, that is essentially what self-improvement is. You take shitty problems that you don't enjoy having and you replace them with problems you're happy to have and that you actually thrive and enjoy having. Another thing that I've often asked people at my events is,

what sort of masochist are you? Like, what sort of pain do you like secretly enjoy that you're like, yeah. Yeah, fuck me up. Yeah. Hurt me, daddy. Yeah. And like for me, it took me a long time to realize,

but, you know, most, well, you're writing a book right now, right? And it's like fucking excruciating. I have, like, there's kind of a sick pleasure that, like, I get with just sitting there and rewriting a paragraph like eight different times. I'm like, yeah, this is so horrible, but I kind of like it. That's me with podcasting. It's make me harder. Exactly.

Here I'm like, I'm so anxious. I'm like, oh, this is sad. Let's go. And what people need to understand too, and this is a real, real danger in the realm of relationships because I think people tend to idealize relationships more than most other things in life. Like, people tend to ideal, they're like, if I could just meet the right person and have the right relationship and find the one, everything's going to be great. And that's not the case. It's meeting the right person and finding the quote unquote one, it's basically finding somebody that you fight very

productively with. Like you still fight. You still like, you know, they still hog the covers and and they still fart more often than you'd like them to. And they still like have these weird idiosyncrasies that drive you crazy and you still have dumb arguments about who takes, out the trash and the right way to load a dishwasher. And but you just fight productively. And you like, and it just, it's not as hard as it is with other people. And I found that that is actually what makes a relationship, the right relationship. It's like having a car.

It's like, if you get the older one that's out of warranty, you're like, fuck, there's a, it's above my pay grade. But if you get a car and you're like, there's issues. But I can manage them. It's within my window of tolerance. It's like, okay. Yeah. I love that. Mark.

What a fucking awesome conversation. Thank you for bestowing so much wisdom. My pleasure. Where can people find you? Mark Manson on pretty much every social platform. Mark Manson.net. The books are everywhere. We'll link it in the show notes too.

Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, yeah, just read my shit. Yeah, perfect. And listen to your podcast because I'll be on it too. Listen to the podcast. Podcast is called The Cellar, Not Giving Me Fuck, podcast. And you can probably get it on this platform. Yeah, sweet.

Thanks, Mark. Cool. Thank you.