The Sabrina Zohar Show - 112: Why Emotional Unavailability Feels Safe: Understanding the 'Not Enough' Wound With Vanessa Bennett

Episode Date: December 10, 2024

Sabrina, alongside her guest Vanessa Bennett, dives deep into the complexities of the “not enough” wound and its impact on attachment styles, hyper-independence, and relationships. Vanessa, a Holistic Psychotherapist, shares insights from her professional and personal journey, highlighting how societal conditioning often instills feelings of unworthiness.  Sabrina and Vanessa explore how hyper-independence and codependency are two sides of the same coin, both rooted in attempts to soothe the worthiness wound in different ways. Sabrina draws from her own experiences, emphasizing the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and embracing discomfort as essential steps in healing.  The conversation touches on the interplay between emotional unavailability and intimacy, as well as the role of micro-moments in building a solid sense of self. They also discuss the nuances of conflict resolution, effective communication, and creating safe relationships that foster growth. Sabrina and Vanessa encourage listeners to navigate their healing journeys with intention and compassion. Get Vanessa's book, "It's Not Me, It's You: Break the Blame Cycle. Relationship Better." Get Masha and Sabrina's new course, the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknown in Early Dating HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Get Ad free episodes HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Okay, guys, we're getting closer and closer to the end of the year. It's crazy. It's crazy. But today, I'm so excited. We have a fellow New Yorker, Vanessa Bennett.

I am obsessed with her. She's fucking amazing. And today we talk about the not enough wound and really the hyper-independence. And I think a lot of people are like, I'm not hyper-independent. And it's like, no, no, no, no. It's the flip side of codependency, right? the more avoidant leaning people. And I think we want to have a conversation about different types of ways that attachment styles manifest. And I think this is a really great one to understand

that hyperindependence and that more avoidant side of things so that we can understand how other people operate, right? Because I think it's a beautiful place. So guys, I'm super excited. Thank you to everybody. As always, please don't forget, rate and review the show, share it with a friend, put in a Facebook group, send it to your mom, your cousins, your uncles, whoever. It means the world and it helps us grow the community. So I'm just so grateful. you guys can watch on YouTube or listen. And don't forget, send in screenshots, email us in the trenches at Sabrinazohar.com. The new series starts next year. We're going to have so much fun. It's an AMA every one Tuesday, every month for now. Maybe it will be two. And we're going to answer your questions. So if you don't

want to pay to have a question answered, great. Send us in the screenshots. Let us know what's going on. Again, in the trenches at Sabrinazohar.com, we are going to have episodes next year and we took them away from the bonus episodes because it felt like I was paygating and I didn't like that. So you can get ad free if That's what you want. And if not, great, the AMAs will be on the main show, but we need your help. We need you guys to write in. So please send us all that. If you need anything, as always, link in show notes.

You can, you know, shop the sponsors that are helping us keep the show alive, join any of the courses. As you guys know, I'm going to be taking less people next year, working one-on-one because I'm writing a book and doing so many fun new things. So the courses are there. They're self-guided and they have all the resources and you get unlimited access for life. So guys, thank you for everything. And as always, if you need anything, we are here and I love you guys.

So without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Miss Vanessa, hello. Hello. I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Of course.

Now, I always like to kick off the show if you could introduce yourself because I think in our own words is so much more fun. Who are you? What's your work? What do you do? And just tell us more a little bit about you. I love you say it's more fun. I'm like, oh, God, I hate introducing myself in my own words. My name is Vanessa Bennett.

I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist in L.A. now by way of New York. My background is in-depth psychology. So, you know, the psychology of the soul, if you will. I'm all the things, right? As we all are nowadays, I am content creator, author, podcaster, mom, partner. I mean, how many hats can I, you know, I could go on and on. I love it.

And I'm curious, like, in your work, because I know what we had to Neon, and so you guys both do the depth psychology, which is really unique for me because it's actually new for me. I didn't really understand that. But I'm curious, how did you get into that? Like, what attracted you to, I guess that? Is it a modality or school of thought? Like, what made you choose that and go, oh, no, I really love this? You know, it's interesting because I also didn't have any pre, like a background, if you will, with Young and Young's work, Carl Young.

And so when I decided I wanted to explore being a therapist, I was in New York still. And I was looking at a lot of different programs. I was already kind of at that stage in my life where I was tired and ready to leave New York. As a New Yorker again. As you know. And so I looked at a bunch of schools in New York, actually. I did a ton of tours, and I really resonated with a few of them. And then there were two schools in California.

And actually, my therapist at the time gave me the brochure for the school that I ended up going to. It was like, you need to look at this school. So I took a trip to California by myself. I was in a relationship that was not so hot by that point. So I was like, I'm going to go to California alone, do the road trip down the coast. to be by myself, all the things. And I stepped foot on the campus of where I ended up going. And I got like full body goosebumps. I weld up with tears. I was like, oh my God, I need to be here. And it wasn't that I had been like researching it and was so into it. It was just such a knowing. And then once I was

there, I was like, oh, this is exactly where I'm meant to be. I think as another New Yorker, growing up very linear, very left brain, very quick, very, this is what you do, pull yourself up by bootstraps. There's a lot of things about the Northeast, right? And our school and Jungian psychology in particular is the opposite of that. It's very feminine. It's very fluid. It's very that which cannot be named. And I think somewhere down, deep down inside, my soul knew that that's actually what I needed. It's so funny. I actually have a similar experience when I went to school. I went to acting school. And I remember I did a Reiki journey with my friend. I was 18 and he was like a Reiki master. And I saw a red door. And I remember just being like, okay. And then when I got there, it was this big

red door and I just had chills and I was like, this is my place. Yes, those knowings. Oh, I love it. And I was curious to do, like, while, once you did that work and then now that you're, you know, working with people and kind of seeing that was, because really what I wanted to, for us to hit on is like this feeling of not enough, right? Those core beliefs of like, I'm not worthy. I'm not good enough. I don't feel like I'm enough. And I was curious to know, just even your personal experience, like, did that manifest? Because I don't know, Lord knows I can manifest for me. But like, what was your experience with? learning about all these things, but then potentially feeling them. Like, how did you navigate all that?

Well, what's interesting about depth psychology, right, is that, like I said, it's the psychology of the soul. It tends to be more of a macro. So you don't just look at the individual person and a symptom. You really have to look at the person within the system, right? And so it's all about macro, micro, meaning, like, what is this serving you within the context of your relationships, within the context of your community, you know, global community, all the things. And so something like the Not Enough wound, had I gone to a school or focused in a different kind of program that was like,

oh, you have these negative beliefs. And so you have these thoughts. Let's teach you some thought-stopping techniques. Let's rewire your brain. I'm not knocking any of that. There's a time and a place for all of that work. And so often what I see, people come to me and they've done all of that. They've done the CBTs.

They've done a lot of these more medical modalities, and they're like, and yet, I still feel unsatisfied. I still feel like I'm not enough. I still, I'm not happy in my relationships and my job, right? I don't have the same issues, maybe. Maybe I'm functioning more than I was. You know, I can get out of bed, but it doesn't feel like enough. And so what I started realizing very quickly is that a lot of the way that the medical model

of psychology works is it's just kind of very surface. Yeah. But it doesn't go deeper, right? And so so much of what I started realizing to go back to the not enough wound is again how much deeper, more spiritual and more connected it is to the society that we live in, the systems that were raised in. And I started realizing that it was all by design. Meaning we are, we live within a society that raises us to believe that we're not enough, right? So that we seek external validation. It's the only way that capitalism would exist. if you truly believe that you were enough, you wouldn't keep buying shit that you didn't need. Right. You don't need the external. Exactly. And so it's a wheel. Like it's feeding it, right? It's a beast, if you will. So it's like, understanding that, I think is really helpful for people because it takes a lot of the stigma out of it, a lot of the shame. They start to understand it a little bit differently. They can do the work internally to heal those wounds, but also say to themselves, like, I'm in a larger system. What does that look like? What does that mean? For me, the not enough, I always had that fun polarity of not enough. but too much, you know? I mean, same, same.

Okay, perfect. Yay. I feel so seen. And I feel it's something that's so common, but I am curious because I think a lot of people, a lot of people that listen in don't even know where to start, right? Like I've just, you know, when I had a perfect childhood or I just don't get it, like, where could I have learned that from? And I'm so curious in your experience, like, what is a place to even just be able to

begin to understand, one, what does that wound look like, right? How does that manifest inner relationships and our partnerships? But then, two, how can we identify it? For me, most of the work that I focus on is around codependency recovery, and it has been for years, right? Because at the end of the day, again, talking about systems, I thoroughly believe, and it's kind of a hill I'm willing to die in that we live in a codependent society. We are brought up to be codependent. We are brought up to believe that's what love should look like, does look like, right?

Meaning it's transactional, meaning I source my sense of self and goodness and value and worth from something outside of myself, right? in relationship, that means it's from you. And so number one, I do believe step one is to start to recognize again the systems, right? It's important. We have to see the systems and the history and the why. I thoroughly believe that. We've got to start there. And then I would say start to see where in your life you, when you don't feel okay, I'll just use the word okay. When you don't feel okay, where, when, how, why do you reach for something outside of yourself in order to feel okay, right? So the not enough wound, which is really just two sides of the same coin of the too much

wound. Okay, is it? I wasn't sure. It is. Okay, that makes sense. It is, is really based in the, I don't feel worthy in my skin as I am. And so I either need to reach outside of myself for somebody to tell me I'm okay. Yeah. Right? Or I'm too much because I've been taught that that's not, acceptable, right? And so I need to like minimize myself. It all comes in the same place. It's a worthiness wound. That's what we talk about. Yeah. Which like, duh. And I'm curious like, how does hyper independence play into that? Because I think we were talking offline about this. I think there is a misconception of like, no, I'm not hyper independent. Like I just, I'm fine. I could do things on my own. And I'm curious to see like how does this all. Because I think a lot of people wear that like a badge

of honor of like I don't need anybody else. I'm good. I'm on my own. I am worthy and deserving of love. but like, I'm not going to settle. And it's like, well, to me, that doesn't sound authentic. Well, it doesn't sound authentic. And it really feels like a great way to mask from vulnerability and intimacy, right? As somebody who tends to be on the hyper-independent scale, so weird, but another thing we talk about a lot is that hyper-independence and codependency are also two sides of the same coin. Oh, go on. So if you were to look at it almost as like a spectrum or a scale, you would say,

interdependence is in the middle, and we'll talk about that. We've got codependency on one side, and we've got hyperindependence on the other. Oh, go on, because I think that interdependence is very confusing for a lot of people of what that looks like. Yeah. So basically, both sides of that coin are one, the codependency side is the more anxious way of trying to soothe that wound that we were just talking about, right? I don't feel like them enough. There's a worthiness wound here. I don't know how to self-regulate. I don't know how to feel okay in the not okay. And so I need to kind of reach for something or someone outside of myself to make me feel okay. Hyper independence, same wound, but different strategy to so rather than cling on and reach for another person,

I'm going to shut people away or shut people out, right? And so they're both kind of filling the same hole or trying to just with different strategies, but the wounding is still the same. Can we flip between the two, right? Because I was going to say, I've definitely been codependent and then I've different hyper-independent. In the same interaction, I will flip from one to the other. I mean, it's really just a strategy, right? And it depends on the person. It depends on the way you're relating. It depends on the day. I mean, some days of my current partner, I can slide into more of the codependent tech, you know, codependency kind of things. And then the hyper-independent the next day. I don't need you. Yeah. I've got it. I'm fine.

I can't trust anybody. I can't rely on anybody. This is why I don't ask for help. Right. We all know those. Oh, God. I was like, no, I don't know what the is. I know that one. that I don't need anybody or like even receiving a compliment. We're like, oh, thanks. And someone says like, oh, that's pretty. And you're like, oh, I got it on sale. And I'm like, I don't have to defend it. I can just say thank you and receive it.

Oh, I am very like, I am really proud when I find things on saying. Oh, yeah. If it's good and I'm like, I was like, Target. Oh, yeah. I love to boast on that. But I am curious, well, then if we're looking at that interdependence, how can we, because I think, you know, the reality is I think most of the people listening myself and we're really on that anxious spectrum, right?

we understand what the hyper independence looks like. But I think when we're really in that world of like, I need you to tell me everything's okay. I need to know it's going to be okay. It's like how do we slide a little bit more so that the pendulum stops swinging both ways? Like what does that actually look like? Well, first off, interdependence is reciprocity. So we can't do it alone. Like we can't be interdependent unless we're being in interdependence with somebody else, right? And we have no control over anybody but ourselves. So really it comes down to starting to heal your own kind of codependent wounding, that like worthiness wound, right, the not enough wound that we're talking about, and starting to create and establish a feeling of trust in yourself that you're going to

be okay, no matter what, that you don't need anything from anyone else. Now, I'm not saying that in the hyper-independent way. Like, I don't need anybody. I just mean I don't need you to be anything other than who you are for me to be okay in my skin. And if I need you to act differently, how you're acting, you have all my power. Oh, I love that. Right. So Alan Watts, there was an image that he used forever ago that I listened to one of his podcasts. He was talking about how he used this image of the bee and the flower when he was talking about interdependence. And he was saying, the bee and the flower obviously need each other, but it's not like an expected need. It's like the bee has its purpose. It has its mission. It's doing its thing. Right. And it obviously needs.

the flower in order to survive, but it also has its own mission, its own purpose, its own reason for being here, and vice versa with the flower, right? And I loved that as a description of interdependence, because as beings, we do need other beings, right? We are social creatures, but I don't need you in order to survive. I don't need you in order to feel okay in my skin, in order to feel like I'm enough, in order to feel like I'm chosen, all of these things that we outsource. It's a lot of reparenting that we're outsourcing. I fucking love re-parenting. But that's kind of also I feel when people are like, they abandoned me.

And I'm like, okay. Well, that can be a parent. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, no, here's the thing. By definition, because I looked into it. And I was like, can I educate myself? Abandonment means that my life could potentially end if you leave me. So hunter gatherers, that makes total sense, right?

We're in a pack right now. If I woke up tomorrow and all of you guys left me and I'm like, holy fuck there's wolves. Right. Caput. But I think we see that. And I'm like, to me, I hear the like, that's a little kid, right? of like you're abandoning me, you're going to leave me. But I'm, to me, like, I'd be curious, even your perspective on that abandonment wound of like, is there validity to that or is it really

just like a feeling that comes from the past and becomes the present? I mean, I think it's a yes, Anne. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, it is valid because it does come from somewhere. Right. Right. And so we don't want to dismiss the feeling and say that it's not real. But the point is, is exactly what you said. That is that inner child version of us that that, that sensation, if we were still in a hunter-gatherer society, would be very real, right? And also, as a baby, it's very real, right? If your caregivers weren't there, you would die. That's where that existential anxiety comes from, right? But a little bit of this idea of reparenting is like, I am now not that child. I'm not that baby. And I need to come in with my kind of adult self and I need to be with that feeling of anxiety, feel those feelings of anxiety, ride that wave. recognize that I don't need somebody to soothe that for me. I can sue that on my own. And that is that adult version of me, right? That's saying to that child, it's okay, girl, like, I got you. We're okay. They, you know, they told you that you weren't enough or they, you know, made you feel some

sort of way or they, quote unquote, abandoned you, which is really just, you know, they left. But that is not about you. That's not about your worth. That's not about your value as a person. And I can talk myself through that, but I have to feel those feelings. 100%. I remember my sister and I were walking and we were to one day and I said something and I was like, I just always felt too much. And she just looked at me and she goes, I don't get it. Where'd you learn that from? And I just snapped her and I was like, dad. I was like, dad. I was like, how did we not? I was like, anytime you went to him with emotion, he would hit you, he would walk out. He would get dismissive. He was upset if you showed an emotion. And then he would be upset if you didn't write. There was no winning with him. And I was like, so of course I didn't feel like I was enough. But then I felt like I was too much. And the harsh reality that like, I'm going to say this with a lot of love. if you're dating and you don't think that that can be picked up on, you're literally kidding yourself. Because I hear this every day of like, what am I not enough? What's wrong with me? Am I not worthy? Am I not good enough? And it's like, here's the thing. I can't answer that because only you can tell me if you genuinely believe because I can say you're worthy and deserving. But if you don't believe it, what the fuck is it matter if I say that to you? Right. And here's the thing. So long as you're trying to get somebody else to tell you whether or not that's true or not, you're never going to trust and learn in yourself. that that's not accurate. Like, I'm constantly looking to you to tell me, am I worthy,

am I lovable, will you choose me? I'm constantly outsourcing that, right? And so until we actually come in and we sit with, I'm asking another person to answer a question or to plug a hole that only I can do an answer, we're never going to actually build that feeling of trust in self. Right. Because like you said, if I don't know that no matter what I'll be okay. Right. And that's, I had one of my clients, I asked her and I said, have you survived every bad day? And she just kind of chuckled. And I was like, no, no, I'm being honest. And she's like, well, yeah, I'm here, right?

And I was like, so that's the point. Because I get, I'm scared of the future. How the fuck's going to happen? This world is weird, right? Like, I have no idea. But if I focus so heavily on what everybody else is doing, I'm completely self-abandoning because I'm not actually taking care of myself to say, okay, well, they might be doing that, but I'm taking care of my side of the street.

And I was curious because do you notice that this is different between genders or is this? I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I'm just. curious, do we see it manifest differently between, especially heterosexual normatives? Because I think I can understand, especially in the LGBT community, that could be a really triggering thing, especially when you're dealing with same sex. But just in general, do we see this differentiate between genders? Or is this really just, you're a human, you're a fucking human and you could have this. Yeah. I mean, you know, when I first started doing this work, especially with groups, I started to notice that it felt like there was a bit of like a leaning

from the women towards more of the codependency, the anxious, right, and a leading from the men towards the opposite. And the more work I did, though, the more, first of all, I'm the opposite of that, as is Dene, right? Both of us are pretty actually avoidant and hyperdependent. And so I started realizing, yeah, I would say that maybe if we're like talking numbers, there's more women that tend to be more on that anxious codependent side, but it's not a guarantee, right, by any means. And also there's polarity at play here. So it doesn't even, we're talking about same-sex relationships. If I come in with a more anxious energy, you kind of by nature of that law of polarity are

going to get pushed into more of an avoidant space. And vice versa. If I come in with a more avoidant, you're going to kind of lean into more of an anxious. Or we could talk about this in a ton of ways. You know, it could be disencer pursuer. It could be, again, hyper-dependent, codependent. I mean, there's lots of ways to kind of talk about these different opposite yin-yang kind of energies, you know. But what I appreciate is at least that we're calling it to be able to

clarify that like they're not different, right? Like, it is very similar. Yes. Because to your point, like, sometimes I've noticed it when I get really clinging, but like very like, me, you know, give me love for my partner. I can see the like, you know, taking the deep breaths and they're like, okay. And then when I'm more in my like, or he'll say something that pisses me off because he's a human, right? He did something that annoyed me in my way. I used to act out. Everything was, let me go external. You, we need to talk about it. Right. This second and you need to tell me I'm okay until I learned like no you can you can sit in some discomfort and now when something happens unless it's something where you're like hey that was disrespectful

or rude right I will stop and just tell him like I might not even say anything but he knows when I just sit for a minute and I'm just quiet right maybe I'm just watching TV and I'm just not talking to him because for me I'm in that moment of I want to process I want to understand what's bothering me do I want to say something to him do I not but what I noticed is when I removed myself a little and not even physically just not from the like not just engaging as much I start to see him come really. Like he'll grab me and he'll start to come. And it's so interesting to see because I think the importance of it is like, one,

we got to stop with this like, well, they're avoidant and they're this and I'm anxious. And it's like, one, yourself identifying. Two, you can change that. Three, you've got to be, one, attached and triggered to feel that, not just this person being an asshole, just ignoring you all the time. But for me, what I see, and I'd be curious your thoughts, it's just the same side of the coin of emotional unavailability as well. Well, it's all strategies, like we were saying. At the end of the day, you guys are both enacting

strategies. I don't care what side of the coin you're on, right? And the strategy is to self-soothe. The strategy is to like, I feel anxious. I want to not feel anxious. And I'm going to use something outside of myself to not feel anxious. So it's still like a manipulation of a situation or a manipulation of a person as a strategy to make myself feel less anxious. Because both of them come from anxiety. Dine and I had Stan Tacken on the podcast forever ago. Love Stan. And he was at my house and we're sitting there and he made a comment where I like his attachment work a lot.

And he said something about, well, you know that the avoidant tends to actually register is far more anxious than the anxious. And I was like, you bite your tongue. Get out of my house. You're not welcome here anymore. Like, how dare you say I'm more anxious than the anxious? You know, so offended. Offended by that.

How dare you? But he's right. I mean, at the end of the day, these are just strategies that we use to so sue their anxiety. And so it doesn't matter what side of the coin you're on, as long as you're not doing that work to learn how to soothe the anxiety without something outside of yourself, which, by the way, whether we're talking people, whether we're talking drugs, alcohol, social media, porn, sex, I don't care what we're talking about.

They're all the same thing. They're all a strategy that I use to stop feeling uncomfortable. You know, I want to, let's touch on the corn, right? It will say it because if we say the actual war, fucking porn. But I am curious for that because I hear that all the time, especially between the porn stuff and the social media of like, well, he's following all those social media girls, right? Yeah.

For me, I've always had a healthy relationship with porn, right? Yeah, same. It's been something where it's like, I can get my rocks off, but I can also leave this and not expect my partner to fucking gangbing me. Like, that's ridiculous, right? But I would be curious to hear your thoughts on like, one, first of all, how the fuck do you navigate that? But have you ever?

I mean, I'm sure you have. I actually don't know how to help people when they'll come to me and say, like, oh, he follows all those girls on social media and, like, they're half naked. I look at this as like, well, you can't really control what your partner does, right? But I am curious your thoughts on even just using porn in that social media compartment. Like, when does it become not acceptable anymore or like, hey, this is a problem versus, hey, that's healthy and normal. You have fantasies outside of the relationship. Well, I would say that in and of itself is healthy and normal. And a lot of us need to kind of reckon with that reality.

But we don't want to because, again, it makes us uncomfortable and we don't want to feel uncomfortable. But what I will say, because I get this same. I get this all the time. A lot of questions around this. Again, we have zero control over anybody else but ourselves. Right. So if this person is, and by the way, you're entitled to your opinions. You're entitled to your level of okay around porn and social media.

Everybody's entitled to it, right? But here's the thing. What you can't do is make someone else back. and wrong forever and ever because they're not acting the way that you think they should act. You have a decision that you can make. If this person, whether you love them or not, is not really the question. If this person is engaging in behavior that you don't agree with or doesn't align with you, that's okay. It doesn't make them bad. It doesn't make them wrong. It doesn't make you bad or wrong. It just makes you potentially incompatible. And so now you get to

decide, is this a person I want to be in partnership with or not? Or am I going to stay in my righteousness forever and ever and attempt to keep making this person bad and I want to control and change them so that I can somehow feel better about things? Again, manipulation. It's the way we do this. Because here's the thing, if I can get this person to stop looking at porn. If I can get this person to stop following women on Instagram, it says something about me. I was going to say, it's so funny. I personally, I've never, Like, that just has never been an issue for me. Yeah, me either.

I look at it as like, when are we seeing progress? Like, I've had somebody write in of like, well, yeah, okay, so, like, he unfollowed, like, 80% of the girls. And it's like, yeah, that's a lot. Like, that's somebody who's saying what you say matters. And it was funny because Ryan the other day, he was like, oh, babe, look at this recipe I found. And he, like, shows me the video and it's a comedian. No, don't give me wrong.

The recipe was fantastic. Like, they looked phenomenal. And her video was, I'm single and cooking, so everything was her, the boobs were out. And it was, like, comically too much. Right. It was, like, everything was that. very obvious what was happening. And I, and like I did, at first I didn't even like notice it.

Like I was looking at the food. And then when I saw it, I was like, oh, that's hilarious. And even Ryan looked at me and he was like, oh, this doesn't, like, you don't care about this. And I was like, this does nothing to me. You're right. I don't have that rack. And I'm okay with that.

I actually got rid of that at 16. I had a breast reduction. So two to fucking loo. But I looked at that because I was like, that would say something more about me than it would about my partner. You're allowed to look at this. You're allowed to. And the irony was he did the recipe and it was phenomenal.

And I was like, there is. there is a time and a place. And the same with like, I have guys with six packs on my Instagram because they're trainers and I'm inspired by them or maybe I know them or maybe they're just good looking. And I think they're attractive. Right. But to me, I find again like that control, that external, I'm going to say it. Like this was to your point. What Stan said to you was when I saw the first time someone saying, by the way, if you have anxious attachment, you're emotionally unavailable as well. And I was like, don't you ever say that to me? We have to look in the mirror. Yeah, I was like, this is my house, until I realized and I was like, oh, my God, you're right, because if I'm emotionally unavailable, right, what does that actually mean?

like I'm not tapping into my emotions and feelings. I don't know what's coming up for me. I'm, I'm so disconnected from my own body. And it's like, well, that's also the anxious attacher, right? You, you make me feel better. And then I'm good versus, oh, wait a minute, how is that impacting me? It's the same with someone more avoidant leaning saying, I don't want to deal with it. I'm out. And I think that is where I'm like, ooh, I'd love more of your thoughts on how emotional unavailability shows up with these, because it sounds like all these are like little protectors, right, of like the hyper independence and the codependence. But to me, I feel like at the root of it is really like, and I get this a question every day

of like, how the fuck do I work on emotional and availability? Like, what do I do? Oh, that's a big one. I mean, look, I tend to talk about this stuff in terms of what I call micro moments, right? So when I talk about codependency recovery and really quickly, I'll birdwalk a little bit to go back to what you were saying about somebody saying, well, they unfollowed 80%, right? my question would be really around like it's not necessarily are they just stopping the the behavior and I'll air quote that because whether we're talking again about following Instagram models or drinking,

it doesn't matter, right? It's not necessarily just are they stopping the behavior, but it's are they doing and are they willing and wanting to do the work around understanding? Do they actually even see it as a problem? Right. Number one. Because again, it can't be a problem just because you say it's a problem. They need to really believe that. And are they doing the work, right? There's a reason why in 12th step they they have that term dry drunk. Just because somebody stops drinking booze doesn't mean that they've understood and healed and figured out why they've been relying on booze to begin with. They've just stopped the thing.

And most likely they've probably just channeled it into something else. Yeah. Right? It happens. I like to talk about this stuff in terms of micro moments. And the reason why I say that is because it's, it's, I like to say that codependency recovery is actually identity work. Oh, go on.

So they go hand in hand. So the more that I'm doing the work around. establishing a solid sense of self and a solid sense of identity, the less control, those kind of codependent ways of relating, which, by the way, it's an addictive tendency, just like any other, like I've named, it's going to have over me, right? It doesn't have as much control over me. But they go hand in hand. So what do these micromomomomens do?

The image I use is like the image of a house. Let's say, for example, one of the struggles you come to me with is boundaries, right? Which a lot of us struggle with. I say yes when I want to say no. I'm constantly overgiving. I constantly feel like a dormant. I'm constantly resentful, right? Yeah, I never tell them how they make me feel, right? Exactly. And so that's what we're talking about. And I say, cool, we start working on boundaries, we start giving examples, we start working through it in your relationships. It's in that moment where, for example, your sister for the million time last minute says, hey, I need you to go over and take care of mom today

because I've got a nail appointment. I don't know. I'm pulling this out of nowhere. right? And you're pissed off because she does this to you all the time. And you say, you know what? No, I actually can't do that today. You know, I've got X, Y, and Z. It doesn't work for me. I can do it tomorrow, but I can't do it today. And you sit with that feeling of discomfort. You sit with that feeling of she's going to be pissed. She's going to stop talking about me. It's going to turn it into a fight, blah, blah, blah, whatever you're telling yourself. That is a micro moment, which, by the way, in the moment it doesn't feel micro. No. In the moment of doing the thing, let's be real. It feels like you're going to rip your skin off. Yeah. That's how intense.

it feels. End of the world. Let's just call it what it is, right? But when you do that thing, that micro moment is a literal brick on the house of the foundation of sense of self that we're trying to build. But think about a foundation. It takes a lot of bricks to create a solid foundation for a house, right? So every time you do the thing that feels so hard you want to die that you know you need

to do, you know, you're practicing, you know, that is, look at that as an establishment of that sense of self. Right. Now, when I have that solid sense of self, I'm a lot less likely to be emotionally unavailable. So this is my roundabout way to bringing it back to emotional unavailability. How do I do that? How do I heal it? Well, you work on building a solid sense of self. Yes. And to your point on all of that, like so beautifully said, I think we have this misconception that in therapy or in your sessions, I had the kumbaya moment. I had the big boo! And then that's what changes it. And it's like, No, no, no, no.

What changes it is those moments. What changes it, I'll never fucking forget. The first time I ever told my dad, like, fine, I'm done. It was 22 in January, and he called me with his same bullshit, his narcissistic rage, started exploding on me because I said no to him that I didn't want to do something. And he said, you know, your fucking piece of shit, don't ever call me again, hung up. Lovely. And I just remember sitting there and I, like, I called my mom and I was, like, shaking.

And I was with my best friend at the time. And she was there. And even she was like, what the fuck was that? And I was like, that's my dad. to me it was so normal and my mom was like what are you going to do and I was like I'm done I'm done I'm I owed him a couple of bucks for my business and I was like I'll pay him back and I like I remember sending it and I was like I thinking in that moment going I don't even have enough money for food like I literally gave him back every penny I had and even like I'm still even carrying some guilt of like by doing that I actually couldn't get my dog the

medicine that he needed that like ultimately led to his demise but like we will leave that for another fucking day. But in that moment, I made the decision for myself of like, I'm done with this. And then I started dating this guy after. And I'll call him the conventionally handsome guy because he was very like conventionally good looking, but I could just read right through it. It was the first time I started being like, something's up. And my best friend at the time, he met her because he like dropped me off at home. It was like an innocent type thing. And, you know, he was talking to her. And I remember she looked to me when she left and she goes, either that's the love of your life or we're getting played. And I was like, I think we're getting played. Like it just in my gut. And so

long story medium was we like he lived in Florida. I lived in California at the time. And you know, does the whole I come here all the time. Yeah, yeah. So we started doing the long distance thing. And it was very quickly seeing how like he couldn't handle even direct conversation. He couldn't handle me being like, hey, you're really inconsistent. Like yesterday you text me all day, all day, how excited you are for me to come. But then when I asked you if we could book my ticket, all of a sudden I even heard for you for two days. And so we, I remember that that time just being like, okay, explore this, sit in this discomfort. Like when I wanted to text him, I wouldn't.

And I remember even just thinking, like, this is for your growth. Like, this might not work out. And he came back and he was in New York or in California. And the minute I saw him, it was just off. Like, the minute, it was like all that passion and fucking intensity. It was just gone. Yeah. And it was like, he was just nagging about everything and, like, fine.

And then the next morning we go to Clay. He was just made a big deal out of everything. And it was like the whole day went by. He was fucking asshole to me. And I went to bed that night just being like, I'm not doing this. Because he didn't even stay. He was supposed to stay and he stayed at hotel. And then the morning he calls me and says,

okay babe I'm gonna come back like let's do this and I was like oh the fuck you are yeah and I started talking and I was like you know it was inappropriate what you did and he says can I come back can we talk and I said you can come back because all this stuff was there and he came back and I opened the door and he like tried to come in and I was like and I handed him his suitcase and he just looks at me and he goes I don't understand and I was like what don't you understand he goes but you know I'm emotionally unavailable babe and I just looked him and I said oh I know that's your fucking problem now get off my porch that micro moment.

I remember just like, you're on that high. You're like, yeah. I did it. And then he walked, and I watched him walk off. And all of a sudden, the little girl in me was like, you see dad walk away. And she was like, oh, my God, what did you just do? And I didn't call him. I didn't text him.

I didn't reach out. And that changed the way I dated because then the next guy that pulled bullshit, I was like, I said goodbye to my father. I said goodbye to the conventionally handsome guy. Who the fuck are you? And it was a brick by brick. So by the time I met my partner, I was like, oh, what else? do I have to lose, right?

Yeah. And here's who I am. Do you like it or do you not? I'm not going to change it. I'm not going to beg. No. That's what it is. Yeah.

And to me, what really moved to the needle was like that self-compassion, right? Like that helped me to take away, like I think of it as like Tetris, right? All those ones that don't fit is all the stuff we learned. And then I tried to, the self-compassion allowed me to fill those gaps to create a solid foundation so that I could start to then grow on top of that. And sorry, that was just my long-winded fucking story of sharing. I have to say really quick, there's this guy, I always forget his last name. I think it's Tien.

Patrick Tihun, he's on Instagram as well. He's a trauma therapist. But he, there's this one little quote from him that I think resonates with this story where he said, somebody asked him, what's the number one indicator of childhood trauma? And he said, trying to get difficult people to love us. Yeah, let's let that one exactly. I was like, let's sit on that one for a second. Holy shit, the number of difficult people in my life, starting from childhood, that I have tried to get to love me. And when I stopped doing that, it was a real moment of, oh, there's healing happening here.

Yep. Right? I'm not hustling for that belonging and that love anymore. There is such a power in deleting the paragraph and just being like, okay. Right. I even had my cousin who's been attacking me recently because she's just like jealous of what I've been doing and she couldn't achieve the same success and she's just throwing. It's so inappropriate if you saw those texts. And of course, I wanted to slap back and all I remember just like deleting it and just pressing the block button. And I was like, see, I get to send up.

It doesn't matter if you're my family. You don't get to use that as a manipulation tactic of like, well, we're family. It's like, get fucked. Then speak to me with some fucking respect if you're my family. Same as your dad, right? It's like, I don't care who you are. You are not entitled to my relationship. You're not entitled to my love.

You're not entitled to my energy. Right. And when we start to really act from that place, again, this is not the like hyper-independent. I don't need people. It's not that because I get that a lot. Oh, so what you're saying is like cut off all relationships that are hard. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we build those muscles of self-respect to the point where we say people

are not owed my time. Right? And if this is not going to be a reciprocal healthy relationship, I get to choose, and I'm not a victim to this. I get to choose if this person is going to be my life or not. I feel about the texting stuff. I'm like, I'm sorry. We all have our phone in our hands every day. Like it takes 10 seconds to send a text.

And I'm like, I'm sorry, who said that you are owed my time, my energy? And that just because I have a piece of technology in my hand that I want to engage with you. Because one, that means I need bandwidth. Yeah, that means I need the attention span. It's never just one fucking text. And I think we all know that because then. I get the follow-up. He only texts me once today. And it's like because at the end of the day, that's not the issue. The issue is that you don't feel like you're enough and that that

little dopamine hit is rewarming. Yes, I am enough. See, he does like me because he text me. And here's what. If you're somebody who needs consistent connection and communication throughout the day, there is nothing wrong with that. But stop trying to get it from somebody who is clearly telling you that's not what they provide. They don't have the capacity or the desire for that kind of consistent communication. Neither of you are bad or wrong. It's just an incompatibility. And the more we realize that we're trying to make somebody love us, right, to heal that wound,

the more we realize, like, we're outsourcing all of our power. You are now the person outside of myself that tells me if I'm lovable. And especially in the early stages, right? Once we're in a relationship, I'm like, listen, have the conversation, right? Like, my partner fucking hates texting like it's nobody's business. Right. He'll do it when it's like when we're traveling. But if you've gone on one or two dates and I'm already hearing this like, well, they don't text me every day.

It's like, this has nothing to do with them anymore. This has nothing to do with your connection. This is nothing to do with who they are because let me get real. Hey, hope you have a good day. What is that doing to get to know this person any deeper. What it is, it's reaffirming that I'm okay. Yes. Look, see, see, but he texts me.

I have confirmation. He chooses me. Exactly. And that's where I would have to say, like, it's we are, you're more, you have no problem saying when I'm in a relationship. I want daily communication, of course. But the key word is like be in a relationship before we get there. And that, to me, just kind of starts to revolve around these core beliefs and really going them to that worth.

Right. But have a conversation. Like, I don't care if you're on the second day, say to the guy, hey, let me ask you a question. It's really important to me to have consistent communication in my days, right? And if somebody says, I have to tell you, I fucking hate text messaging, well, then don't go into this relationship thinking you're going to change this person. And they've told you clearly what they want or who they are.

I had that on a second date. Yeah. I told the guy, he goes, you know, talk to me. Like, we were, we were all up together at that point. We were, like, hanging out. And he goes, you know, talk to me, like, what's been your difficulty in dating? And I went, oh, well, if I'm dating somebody, they need to text me every day. And he even stopped.

He goes, oh. They need to? Yeah. And he goes, oh, that's not going to work for me. Yeah. And this was, this was, you know, when I was before a lot of this had happened. And I was like, oh, okay, like, what do you mean? And he was like, I want to live separately from my partner.

He was like, I don't even want to move in the same house as this person. And I remember just sitting there and being like, okay, that doesn't make you bad, right? And like, this guy is such a good human. Like, that's why we never ended negatively. It doesn't have to. And he tried. He tried that a whole week. He would send me a text.

And I knew it was not authentic to him. I could tell by the text. I was like, you don't want to do this. And then eventually I just told him. And he was like, I'm a filmmaker. I travel a lot. And I was like, listen, I said, I wish you truly nothing but the best. He's in a happy relationship now.

It works for them. But to your point, I didn't expect, like at that point, That was unrealistic of me. I need you to text me every day. No, I don't. I'd like you too. And if you don't, that's okay. It's a desire that I have. And you know what Ryan and I did? He said, instead of that, I'll never forget, he set that boundary going, pretty much saying no. He was like, I'm not going to text you every day. I stare at my screen all day, but I'll call you, I'll face time you, and I'll make consistent plans. And I was like, okay. I'll fuck with that. Perfect. I had a client, it was actually a client recently that said to me, she was talking about how in the dating apps, she has a thing right on her

profile that says, I don't want to text forever. Like, I want to basically, like, let's get right to the meeting because she was like, I find that sometimes that level, that kind of communication is false intimacy. A false sense of intimacy. And I was like, ooh, I like that. I'm going to use that. Every day. In this world that we're in, we're all so freaking overconnected all the time. But am I truly being like vulnerable and deeply connected with people? No. Nine out of ten times. I'm not, right? And it's like, so what is that giving you again? What is that giving you for this person to be texting you all day every day. Is it truly connection or is it a sense of false intimacy? I don't know. I love that when she said that. Oh, I've been saying that for the last two.

Like that's what, that was the hill that got me. That's actually what started my career. I would come on and say, texting is a false sense of intimacy. There's no tone. You have no tonality when you read a text. I could tell you how I would read this, how I would perceive you to say it or how I would say it. I haven't the slightest idea. How many times I've read a message and gone, oh my God, they hate me? That's why I'm laughing. Yeah. And then they'll call me and everything's great. And I'm like, oh or vice versa where I'm like everything's fine and then they're mad at me today just the other day and I was like um do you want me to go like it seems like you don't me she's like what are you talking about of course I did I was like well that period felt very aggressive she goes okay I put a period at the end of my sentence I was like yeah it felt like a lot it was really aggressive

And what I love about that is it also showcases how this shows up in friendships and work. It's not just romantic. That's why when people are like, no, no, I don't show up like this in my friendships. Oh, yeah, you do. Really? Oh, yeah. So when you text your friend and they didn't answer you and you're like, did I do something wrong? Wait, did I say once a codependent?

Always a codependent. It goes in, it shows up in every relationship we have. It might show up a little bit differently in behavior. Right. But again, that root source is still the same. We're still hoping the other person's going to tell us that we're enough, we're worthy and we're chosen. Yeah. And like I said, that could be picked up on.

I remember Ryan always saying he's like, to all of the girls that are anxious, he's like, if you don't think we can tell, we can tell. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero, more like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. Okay, let's get to speed dating, which is just lightning round questions. I know. I, of course,

like, had to make it something. I was like, oh my God, am I dating somebody? Let's do this. Sorry, John. Okay. So some of these, I feel like we probably answer this. How can I actually heal the not enough wound with someone safe and emotionally available? Maybe we didn't. Okay, so from a lightning perspective, I would say that's a tricky question. question because there is an inherent like expectation that I need to have somebody outside of myself to heal that wound. And I would say again, you actually don't. You have an opportunity in every relationship kind of piggying on what you just said, like piggybacking on the thing that it's not just romantic relationships, whether it's work, whether it's family, whether it's friends,

right? We really need to put more focus into creating solid, safe relationships across the board and stop focusing so much on the romantic relationship, right? I'm a big proponent of this decentering romantic relationships. 100%. And so you have an opportunity to put it into practice. You just have to open your eyes and look. But the work, really, again, has to come back to you. The mirror's going to be there.

It's just, are you going to look at it or not? Best tips for healing this wound while dating or should I stay single until I do so? That's what I want. Yeah. This, the, such a thing of like, do I stay single? Do I not? I love your thoughts on that. So I don't think there's really a right answer to this. Again, I think it really has to do with the person. Something that Denae says a lot that I have said many times to clients is this idea of moving away from dating as a baseline, partnership as a baseline, and instead moving into partnered when it's justified.

I love that. Right? So I'm not dating and trying to be in partnership because I need that to make me feel whole and okay and all the things we've talked about. I'm doing it from a place of this person that I met, there's a connection, and it feels like we jive and it feels great and there's something here to build. Cool. But it's not like I'm trying to force this thing to make myself feel okay. So I think it's more about questioning why. Like why am I dating? Yeah.

Why am I trying to partner? Well, I'm lonely. Okay. Well, everybody feels lonely sometimes. How about if we sit with the feeling of loneliness for a little while and do some work around that, right? I want to share my life with somebody. Okay, cool, valid. But your life's going to go on whether or not you partner with somebody. So are you also pouring the same amount of energy and time into making sure that your life is vibrant and filled and, you know, sustainable? All these beautiful things, even if you're not partnered. Right. So again, it's like the questioning. Like, well, what's the motivation for wanting to be partnered? So I don't think that you have to be single or be in a relationship to do this work. I think it's doable no matter what. But I also, at the end of the day, we are relational creatures, which is why I said, bouncing it off of family, friends, coworkers, it doesn't matter. There's still going to be

opportunities to look in the mirror. A hundred percent. Because to me, I always would say, if the only reason I would say, you know, hey, stay single is it's like, if you're literally like, I can't get through one date without trauma dumping or have a high, I have a panic attack after. It's like, okay, I think we need to baseline. Right. So that we're entering in with a little bit more confidence, because otherwise, this is going to be really shitty. But to your point, when I focused on pouring my, like when my dog debt passed away, that was it for me. Like I, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, He was my object permanence. He was my everything.

I'm a single girl. It's a dog I had for 10 years. I moved from New York to him to California. And I remember when he passed, I was like, I'm not going to let you die in vain. And that's when I met my partner, I was so very like, you're great. You're in addition to my life, though. You're not instead of. That's right.

And I really was building this life of like, I have these new communities. And he found that really attractive that I was like, hey, sorry, I can't make it tonight. I have something else to do. And it wasn't a game. It was genuine because I'm good with, good without. I want to be good with you. but I also need to be good with that. I always say it's cherry on the Sunday, right?

Sundays are delicious, even if you don't have a cherry on it. A cherry makes it better. It could add to it, but it's not the Sunday. The Sunday is the Sunday regardless of the cherry. And I think that's how we need to start looking at romantic relationships a little bit more. Love that. What's the Sunday? Yeah.

Okay. I think this is a good one. How can you tell the difference between independent standards and self-sabotage? I guess I would answer that by saying, again, like, questioning the motivation for the behavior. I think is really important. I'm a big proponent of this. I'm also, you know, I've been told many times, I've been called the Cold Water and the Face Therapist often by my groups

because as the New Yorker, I tend to be like, like, listen, own your shit. Yeah, what are we doing here? You're being manipulative. It's a control tactic. You know, people are like, oh, God. I'm like, well, I mean, listen, with love. I'm not saying you're doing it with malicious intent. It's coming from somewhere.

Let's talk about it. But until we can really look at our shit and say, like, oh, that was hell of manipulative. Right. We're never going to really be able to get into that work. So I think, again, I think it's about questioning the motivation. I think it's about looking at these tools that we were talking about in the beginning of the conversation around self-soothing and soothing anxiety, right?

Like, why am I doing this? Am I doing this because it makes me feel okay? And so this idea of hyperdependence, like, am I keeping this person away because it makes me feel and I need that in order to feel like in control? and okay in my skin. Or am I doing it because, again, I have this idea of self-respect, right? Where, like, no, I actually know how I deserve to be treated or I know what kind of relationship I want, like the porn thing.

Hey, nothing wrong with you. You're not a bad person. We're just not aligned. That, to me, feels very different. It feels like one is coming from a solid sense of self and one is coming from the opposite of a solid sense of self. Right. And to me, it's like what I hear is, you know, like one of my friends, she always reframe.

she's like self-protection, not self-sabotage. Like, you're not doing this and to hurt yourself on purpose. And so I'm like, okay, what are I trying to protect myself? Is there a core belief, a narrative of like, I can't trust anyone. Men are trash, right? That versus for my highest good of, no, I deserve better than that. I don't want someone to talk to me like that. Those are my standards.

I love that. Any tips for accepting criticism in a constructive way without feeling like I'm not good enough or spiraling and getting defensive? This is a very common, very common wound. I myself still do, but not a, much anymore, struggle with this. And it wasn't until I was in my current relationship, actually. I remember maybe six months in, we were, you know, he came to me with something like, you hurt my feelings, you said this thing, or whatever that thing was. And I spiraled into like,

well, apparently I'm not good enough. Like, clearly, I'm a piece of shit and I'm a horrible person and blah, blah, blah. And there was something in the way in that moment where he was like, you know that, like, this is what we do, right? Like, we've got to be able to give feedback to each other and it doesn't mean anything about you as a person that I started going, oh, shit, I do that a lot, right? So I started talking about it in terms of like separating out this, this I've done something bad, which I'm air quoting for people who are listening. I've done something bad with I am bad. They're very coupled beliefs, and that starts in childhood. Usually that comes from a shame-based childhood, which, listen, even if your parent was an amazing

parent. They were raised in a shame-based way. Guarantee it because that was, especially the generation before, that was how they parented. Especially faith-based. A lot of shame. A lot of shame. But, you know, the generations prior, I mean, they didn't know any better. It was very shame-based. So shame-based parenting really does create this sense of identity that's kind of based in shame, right? And so this, I've done something bad means I am bad. Once I started looking at those two things as like coupled beliefs that I needed to be able to separate out, it gave me, not only like a cognitive understanding of what I was doing, but then I started implementing tools to stay in my body during the moments when I was getting feedback or criticism.

Could you share a few? Yeah. So for me, it's not the same for everybody, but I'll tell you what happens to me when I am in that state of I've done something bad means I am bad, I start to dissociate. Okay. So when there's conflict, I'm like, I'm shut down. I'm gone. I shut down, right?

I do tend to be more avoidant. My partner's the opposite. He talks, talks, talks, talks, talks, talks. And I'm like, do-to-do, I've left my body, right? God, I feel so easy. Our ways of, you know, relating to anxiety. I leave my body and he doesn't shut up, right? This is what we do. I get that. So when I started noticing, oh, and again, this is through a lot of just watching yourself, paying attention, noticing what happens. I say, like, become the anthropologist of yourself. You're just noticing. You've got a little field journal. Oh, interesting. I notice that when this happens, this happens. This is what it feels like in my body. So after a lot of that, I started going, okay, shit, I leave my body. I totally dissociate. When there's conflict, I'm fucking out of here, right? So what's the kind of alternative to that?

Well, I got to stay in my fucking body is what I got to do, right? Because that's my way of not feeling. No, I'm in it to feel it, so I'm going to fucking stay in my body. So what I started doing was little things. Like when there's conflict now and I still do this, I will pinch the underside of my legs with my nails. Oh, smart. Okay. Like just enough where it kind of hurts a little bit, right?

but it keeps me in my body. Or I actually will repeat a mantra in my head and I actually stole it from him. I don't know if this is my ADHD brain where I can do five things at once, but I can repeat a mantra and also listen to what you're saying at the same time. But he always says this thing, try to understand before trying to be understood. Oh, I love that. I love that. And so when somebody comes at me with what feels like criticism, right, what do we want to do?

We want to defend ourselves. The ego cannot believe that it's bad. And so the ego will start to defend itself against being bad. No, in that moment, I will literally, in my head, I'm looking him in the eyes as he's talking, and I'm like in my head going, try to understand before being understood, try to understand before being understood as I'm pinching the underside of my legs. And he's like, get me like, this bitch is crazy, right? But it's like these little strategies that I'm like, oh, this works for me.

I'm present. I'm in my body. I'm not dissociating. I'm hearing him. It's not perfect every time. But start to learn and tweak and play with tools to keep. to keep you present, to keep you in the moment, to keep you from doing whatever that thing is that you do, you know?

Oh, totally. And I love that. For me, on the anxious side, right? Yeah. The fucking other side of the coin, literally. For me, it was something, it's like same, same, but different of I had to, my, I can think of 12 things at the same time and they'd be like, wait, what? Yeah.

For me, what really helped was, one, I would repeat back and be like, so what I heard you say was this, just so that I could. And then if he was like, no, no, that's not what I said. I'd be like, okay, like, what I heard you say was, like, I fucked up because there's something wrong with me. No, Sabrina, that's not what I said. And I'd be like, okay. And then I would just even sometimes take a second and be like, okay, what facts do I have

to back that up, right? Like, did I do anything? No, I can't. Okay. Then for me, I'm like, sensations in my body of like, wow, okay. So like when my partner said, calm down to me, which I don't know what man ever thinks that's ever going to work for a woman, I wanted to lash out and scream. Murder?

Fucking bludgeon him to death with whatever sharp object was an area. And instead I stopped and I was like, okay, what's happening to me? And I was like, my heart is pounding right now. And I was like, when do I remember this? I'm like, this is how you feel when your dad says that. I was like, it's okay. He's not yet. And for me, I'm like, Sabrina, listen.

And that's the irony of my dad would always go, stop, listen. And I was like, you fucking dickhead. But he wasn't wrong in that one fucking thing because it's right. I would never. I would just defend and attack. And I have to, you know, I have to tell you that like I didn't do anything. And instead now, one, I'll be like, that's okay if you misunderstand me, right? Like, I don't need to defend myself.

But secondly, it's also validating to myself of like, well, I don't think I'm a bad person for this. So if you're telling me that you think I'm the worst person, do I genuinely believe that? No. And so I think it's just, like you said, everybody has a different thing that works for that. And sometimes, you know what really fucking works for me? I need five minutes. I was just going to say, also ask for what you need.

I need five minutes. When I get flooded, I'm like, you know what? I got a tap out. Yeah. I need a minute. I'll come back to this. Because also, to be fair, people have different processing times. And that's been really important for me to understand my relationship too. Like John, John is a very fast processor. And I take a bit. I need to like sit with myself. I need to journal. I need to work through it. I'm not really good on the fly when it comes to that stuff. Like when I'm flooded and I'm

activated, fucking forget it. My processing is like gone. Right. And so understanding that about myself, it's been nice to be like, I'm going to have to get back to you on this. You know? With a time. Even like, that's what I'm doing. Give a time frame. Can you give me till tomorrow? Yeah. Give me tomorrow. I need to just process.

Right. Versus the like, I can't do this. And you're like, and you storm out. No, that's the avoidant being the avoidant. But in my avoidance, I will say, like I need an hour or two to kind of walk away. I will say one of the most healing moments. Not that I expect this from him. And that's probably why it was healing.

We were in an argument. And he actually, and like I said, he's a talker. When he gets, he's like da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. He stopped himself and actually looked at me and was like, you look flooded right now. We need to take a break. And I was like, oh my God, you see me. It was like, he came out of his own anxious bubble. Yeah. And like looked across the room was like, oh, shit, I'm talking to air right now because she's not here. Right. Healthy for both of us. Like nothing's happening right now. But I remember in that moment being like, oh, shit, there's something here. Yeah. You're willing to look

outside of yourself sometimes. Yeah. And see me. And not like put me first, but be like, oh, shit. Like, if this is a partnership, we've both got to be online. And I'll be honest, when I hear that, when Ryan will be like, hey, babe, regulate. Like, that's our code. It's our calm down. He'll just say, he was like, what word feels okay to you? And I was like, you can say regulate. Just so I know, like, I'm not seeing things clearly.

When he says it, it instantly snaps out. And I'm like, you're not here. I love code words. You're not here, right? And it's just, ooh, okay. And that's when I'm like, I'm going to go for a walk. I'm going to listen to my meditation or I'm going to do a walking one or I'm just going to call my mom. I'm going to do something to take me out of this bubble.

And it's even sometimes what I'll suggest of like, oh, you want to send that text? I'm like, write in your notepad. Go for a walk. Go for 20 minutes. And then come back and tell me you still want to say that. If you do, you choose your own adventure. But maybe just putting a little bit of space will allow us to stop going from feeling to fucked of just like, I'm not enough. Because then it just reaffirms those core beliefs of like, see, I knew I wasn't enough because you keep leaving me.

And it's like, actually, they probably just left because you weren't willing to have a conversation with them and you're projecting onto them what it is. Or you were talking at them for 20 minutes and they were flooded. which is what happens with me. And it's like, oh, I'm the bad guy now because I'm flooded and I need to leave. Like, well, first of all, neither of us are bad guy. But I will say, I mean, maybe I'm just speaking from personal experience. But the avoidance do tend to get flack more in my opinion. And there's a villainization and it's so much villainization. It's a hill all die on because I love my partner, but he has, same thing. I can see when he's flooded and I'll say, you know what, I'm going to give you 20 minutes. Why don't we talk later?

Or, hey, do you want to go talk to someone? You want to call your friend, whatever you need? And it's like sometimes it helps because when I know I would love to receive that, so I'm going to give that to my partner. Love that. Oh, Vanessa. We could talk for fucking ever. But I'm just so excited. Thank you so much for coming on.

Could you please share more about your book and you and where people can find you and all that fun shit? Yeah. So I'm on the grams, as we all are at Vanessa Bennett. My book that came out last year with my partner is, It's Not Me, It's You. Really good way to see these two different dynamics at play. We talk about this a lot. And yes, I am also married to a therapist. And yes, there is a lot of talking that happens. It's exhausting sometimes. It's one giant conversation. Oh, God. For the avoidant. Oh, God. Well, we had John on exactly last year. Oh, that's right. I forgot. It was exactly a year ago. That's right. So we wrote a book together last year. I have a new book coming out. this year called the motherhood myth. That'll be coming out actually in the summer of 25, which is going to be a big, a big hefty read for all my people out there that are struggling with parenting under patriarchy. Oh, God. That's why I don't have a kid yet.

I mean, listen, you and I can talk about it. We started. Oh, God. All right. Well, on the next episode, we will. Perfect. Thanks, Vanessa.