The Sabrina Zohar Show - 119: When to Walk Away: The Power of Boundaries and Self-Respect with Jillian Turecki

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Want to know if you should stay or walk away from a relationship? In this weeks episode, Sabrina Zohar welcomes relationship expert and author Jillian Turecki for a raw and honest conversation about love, relationships, and knowing when to stay or walk away. Jillian shares her personal journey through a difficult marriage and divorce, which ultimately led her to become obsessed with understanding what makes relationships truly work. Through her vulnerability, she reveals how her own experience of receiving a divorce text while having a miscarriage and losing her mother became the catalyst for her transformation and expertise in helping others navigate their relationship journeys. The episode dives deep into critical relationship topics including how to differentiate between gut feelings and anxiety, the truth about attachment styles, and the problematic nature of trending relationship theories like the "black cat theory." Sabrina and Jillian also explore the nuances of feeling safe in relationships, the importance of core values in long-term partnerships, and why potential shouldn't be the primary attraction to a partner. The conversation concludes with a rapid-fire segment addressing common relationship questions, making this episode a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand the complexities of modern relationships and how to navigate them authentically. Get Jillian's book, "It Begins with You: The 9 Hard Truths About Love That Will Change Your Life" Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen, these little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show.

My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You guys, I am so fucking excited for today's episode. I have been counting down the days. Oh, my favorite fucking Jillian Tarecki is on the show. I was on her podcast, Julian on Love like a couple months ago and her fucking book is out now. Guys go get it. The link is in bio. This book is amazing and she's amazing.

And our conversation today, it really filled me up. We talk about like, when do you stay? When do you go? How do you know when to walk away? How do you know when to stay? How do you really learn to trust yourself when we're in a relationship? And dating, right? It's not just when you're with somebody.

It's also even alone, right? Even when you're just dating and just getting to know somebody. So, guys, I'm so fucking excited. Jillian is so amazing. And I'm so grateful that we could grow our community and have such incredible people. Today's going to be a special one. Guys, as always, if you need anything, don't forget, you got the foundation course, you got the breakup course.

And you got the nervous system course, which really helps with all of those pain points like texting and what are we conversations and dating in the unknown. Everything will be in the show notes, whatever you guys need here to support. As you guys know, I'm taking pretty much less clients as I journey on writing my own fucking book. And I'm so excited. But just wanted to let you guys know if you need me. I'm always here. You got some free guides. You got some stuff that you can get. Go check out Gillian's book. And just thank you. Thank you guys for showing up as you and allowing me to show up as me. Don't forget, rate and review the show. Please speak with kindness when we do that.

Remember, we're a community here. But don't forget, share it with your friends. And please, please, guys, just keep doing what you're doing. I am so fucking proud of you. So, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Jillian, yes. Welcome to the Sabrina's Our Show. Oh, my God. I'm so excited to be here. I've been looking forward to this for so long. Me fucking two, to be honest, because we have been two ships passing and I'm so stoked when we finally got to intersect. And so I'm excited that both of us get to be here and just to share all the stuff we've been through. I know. So for anyone, not like anybody does, but for anyone who doesn't know who you are,

could you please just share a little bit about yourself and your own words and like, just how the fuck you got here? Born and raised in New York City and I taught yoga for about almost 20 years. No shit. Yeah, I did. And 12 years ago, I met the man who would become my husband and then my ex-husband at the yoga studio. Where else? Of course. And I always say that our relationship leading up to marriage was about 90% great and 10% extremely problematic. To the point where, I mean, I ignored very, very significant, quote unquote, red flags, if you will. Very, very important.

And then repressed that and suppressed that and didn't want to listen to that because all I wanted to do was get married and I didn't want to, like, lose him and that whole thing. Oh, yeah. And we got married. and the 10% became the 90% and the 90% became the 10% because people think that when you get married, your problems get better, but actually it magnifies.

It magnifies everything. And the marriage was extremely difficult and it ended terribly with like, ended over a text on the morning that was having a miscarriage and my mom had two months to live. So she was dying of cancer. So that was a little over 10 years ago. and I entered a very, very, very dark place and dark night of the soul.

And part of it was just how am I going to survive? Like, how am I going to feel better? How am I going to get up in the morning? Right. And then another part was I was absolutely, I could not believe that this relationship did not work. Like I had a blueprint of what a relationship should be going into a marriage or whatnot. It's like you love someone, you get married. Yeah.

Right? And I thought, well, you know, I married him later in life. I was 38 at the time when I married him. And I thought, okay, I'm a yogi. It's later in life. I've done work on myself. I'm mature. I know what I want, but I didn't really.

Yeah. And, boy, I was so, I was just so clueless. And I, you know, my parents had a horrific marriage. And so I was never modeled that. And even though my mom remarried and I loved my stepfather, it still, I still wasn't really merit. I wasn't modeled like what truly healthy like communication is. That was like, you know, the trauma bond to the max. And when we ended, I didn't know what I was going to do, but I became obsessed with the question. And the question that I became obsessed with is what really

truly makes a relationship work and thrive. I became obsessed with figuring that out. And And when I started to understand it and understand what happened between us and in that relationship, and I started to really get it, I really wanted to work with people in that capacity, not just working on their physiology. When we were together, we went to couples therapy and it was terrible. And we went to two, and it was absolutely horrible. And I don't, I'm not supposed to be together, so everything happens for a reason. But I thought there has to be another way. And then I started to learn more about it and to get training in it. And I thought I'm going to work with couples.

And I did. I worked with hundreds. I mean, I was a crazy person. I actually don't even recommend that to people. I was obsessive. Part of it is because my personality can be somewhat obsessive, but also because it was a way to channel my pain into something. And so, but then I was like, well, no,

I actually also want to work with people who are single because who you decide to spend your life with is the most important decision you'll ever make, and that decision is not something that people actually really understand. And so, and then I also, I learned how to completely reclaim my life after heartbreak and just that grieving. So I guess I just started expanding that to work with different people wherever they were in their relationship journeys. That's a little over 10, 10 a half years later, and here I am. That's fucking awesome. I'm curious, because this actually brings me right into like what I wanted. I'm curate twofold. What were the red flags? And then what part of you do you think didn't want to see those? Like there's a familiarity. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally. So there's a story that I'll share here. I go into much more detail in my book, but I'll tell a little bit because it's interesting story. So one thing was like there was just one day, one evening, and it was about six or seven months into our relationship. And we were, we went very fast, very quickly. We were immature. It was older, like later in life for us, but very,

very immature and went very fast. So six, seven months and you're going really fast. You're like, this is my person. I'm in love with this person, right? And you have a lot invested. And there was just one day we're in a car on our way to go see this show called Sleep No More. I don't know if you never see. Yeah, you know it? Oh, I might. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like super excited because it was being held at this old school club called Twiloh. And in my 20s, I used to go to Twiloh and like party until like seven in the morning. And so I'm like, I'm going to my old stomping ground. And like, now I'm an adult. Like blah, blah, blah. So I was very excited going over the Williamsburg Bridge. And he was very quiet. He was shut down and withdrawn. And I had no idea what was going on.

I kept on asking him, is everything okay? Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah, I'm fine. Totally like stonewalling me. The familiarity in that for me was that my father had was very mentally ill. And, and, and but also a very accomplished psychiatrist. And he would, when I was a child, like you never knew what mood he would be in when he came home. He had bipolar. And I'm also very sensitive and very attuned. So you have the combination of that.

And then you have the child who's the most sensitive child in the family. And so I never, I had to figure out how to survive in his presence and how I did was always being anticipating moods. that feeling inside your body of feeling so tense and uncomfortable and not really knowing. And that tension was so familiar to me and I hated it. But I did not have any clue how to later on that evening because it just got worse. I mean, he still involved me the whole night. And then it blew over by the next day.

But I had absolutely no confidence, knowledge, tools to pull. him over or like to speak to him later that evening and just say this is not okay yeah isn't it fucking insane how we real like how we become so attuned and accustomed to something so early on like you said even though your mom remarried and you loved those you know you thought he was a great guy but that doesn't mean that the bullshit blueprint that you have from being too yeah dealing with this doesn't change and i'm similar in the sense where like that i don't know about you because i i would be curious to hear your experience with understanding your body because For me, I was so disconnected.

Yeah. Like, for me, yoga was my first kind of like introduction into, oh, like, this is where my body feels this, right? Just that mind-to-body connection. And when I met my ex, I thought the same, it was like a whirlwind. And I was like, this is it. This is the one. Yeah.

Spoiler alert, here we are. It wasn't. And I remember that same thing, like our first fight. And he wrote, like, I wrote him an email because I, that should have been the first inclination we couldn't communicate. Right, right, right. Because I kept being like, well, he's a void in. shuts down. It's like, no, stop making excuses. He was narcissistic. Yeah. And I remember he wrote me

an email back and I read it to my mom and I was crying on the phone and I was like, see, mom, there is something wrong with me. And that was the first time my mom stopped and she goes, oh, no, I don't like this. Because in the end of the email, he wrote like those whole soliloquy. And then he said, it seems, it's very clear one of us loves you more than the other, meaning I don't love myself as the way that he loves me. And, you know, he was saying, you know, I'm trying to protect you. I'm trying to take care of you. Like that's when that. No, that's like deep manipulation. Exactly.

And your mom picked up on that. And it's, that's when that, but for me, I was so disconnected from my body. Yeah. Now, hindsight, six, seven years later, when I, with my dad, all of a sudden, I just realized it and I was like, that's like, that's, like, that's, like, that's, that's, you know, that's, exactly. I'm curious for you, what was your journey on really connecting things? through like, holy shit, he wasn't safe for me. Or like, this wasn't that. How long did that take?

And what really made you kind of see that? It's an interesting paradox because as someone who's been, I've been practicing yoga for 25 years, so I'm actually very connected to my body. But I could easily in the pursuit of love and then the pursuit of preventing abandonment, I can repress it. So it doesn't feel like there's a disconnect from it, but there's an avoidance of listening to it, right? It was only after the fact, and I also had to really look inward because it's too easy in at least this case, because I was in a relationship many years ago with

someone who was incredibly abusive, and so that's very clearly villain victim. In this relationship, I can say with confidence that he was probably more of the problem. However, I definitely brought problems too because I didn't speak up. And there were things that, you know, when he was upset about something, I immediately went to what does this mean for me as opposed to trying to understand his pain. Yeah. So, so yes, there were red flags. Yes, there were things that he did that were just very unsafe, like, you know, shutting down, you know, after I, you know, lost a pregnancy and there's just so many things where if I were to focus on, it's like, that is so wrong. But at the same time, I had to look within. So really understanding and really being able to like feel, see and know

that that was not safe and not good came after. It came through the processing of that heartbreak. And I was able to and through that processing also being able to look at the circumstances a little bit more objectively, not just emotionally. And that's when I really kind of understood. And then because when I was processing and at the same time learning about relationships, I was educating myself and being educated by others on what it really means to have safety in a relationship, what it means to actually bring safety to a relationship. The thing that I think that a lot of people get wrong is, you know, let's just take in this case of women who really, you know, we're kind of programmed. Everyone wants to feel safe in a relationship regardless,

but women are kind of programmed towards it. There's two things. You can't expect safety from someone who's not in their body. You know, like someone has to be landed in their body, at least most of the time, in order to be a container of safety for you. And you can't rely 100% on someone else for your safety. Right? So it's this delicate balance of, do I feel safe enough inside my body?

Do I feel safe enough to have to have? have my own back in a relationship? Do I feel safe enough inside me to be able to give safety to someone else? Or the moment that I feel unsafe, am I completely going into panic mode and anxious attachment bullshit that I'm not even aware of this other person's experience? And am I just like wanting safety from someone? Like am I not seeing the person for who they actually are and what they're capable of and what they're absolutely not capable of?

100%. A lot of nuance there. 100%. Yeah. And that I appreciate us having the nuance conversation because I think you know as well as I do. You see the internet. Yeah. There's just so much out there that's just black and white. And there's, we need to have space for the nuance because that's where the beauty happens. And I like, at least for me, because I, you and I have very similar stories in the sense that like we both had like a really traumatic breakup and an ending. It was just, for me, it was like my ex lived with me for three months after he walked out on me. And like I was just such a shell of a human. I let him back in. And I, he was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was. He was He almost hit me one night. Like, that was the last. And I said, like, get out of my house.

I never spoke to him again. And I didn't understand what feeling safe meant. And I appreciate that, like you said, it's not that you're saying he's to blame, I'm to blame. But what it really is is you're like, I'm going to take accountability for my part. Yeah. For my part, with my ex, at least it was like, I didn't speak up. I didn't set a boundary.

If I did, I was scared of what I was going to get. Hi, that's a great indication. But really important to look. For me, I was like, oh, that's my dad, right? He made me feel just like my father. and although like I'm not going to blame everything on my parents, what I am going to say is I learned that there. Yeah. You know, I learned from my mother that when my father makes a rude comment, just shut down.

Just shut up and sit there and take it or disassociate because that's the man of the house. Yeah. And I really wanted to change that game. But to your point, the only way that you can be in a healthy and secure relationship and safety is to understand what that feels like for you to feel safe. Do I validate myself? Yeah. Right. Do I have compassion for myself?

How do I speak to myself? Yeah. Yeah. How do I present myself? I never just had, like, I think we've been sold a false bill of goods when it comes to like, here's what a healthy relationship looks like. And it's either like, no problems, right? Everything's amazing. Everything's great. But really, what I think they forget to mention is that, like, being in a safe and secure relationship can also feel really fucking uncomfortable at first. When I first met Ryan, I was like, what's wrong with you? Like, this, you know, because you're like, why are you so accommodating? Why are you holding so much space for me. Not that there was something wrong with him, but I had never received that. What do

you see more often when you're, you know, in the landscape of the red flags or the things that people are really not seeing? Generally speaking, I see that people stay too long, particularly women. Yeah. And I think that when someone has had enough relationship pain, then the walls go up. And then it's like, no, I don't like this, or I got the ache from that, or this or that. And it's all, that's really all your fear speaking. It's I don't want to get hurt again. And so it's an interesting thing because if someone can then say, oh, I, I'm vulnerable. I'm vulnerable.

Like I feel vulnerable. This is scary. Like, are these actually walls? And that's why I think it's so important to understand like what it actually means to be discerning if you are looking for sort of longtime partnership. And I don't know about you, but I really believe that core value. I think that that's sort of the glue. Whereas people in like very unhealthy relationships, typically it's their sex that's the glue that keeps the relationship together. When really if you

want something to last like over many years, possibly decades and more, the glue must be your value system with this person. 100%. Or morals, ethos ethics. Yeah, morals ethos ethics. Yeah, I talk, because Ryan and I talk in rings and okay, are we going to do this? And it's like, it's a scary conversation. You're like, oh, okay, here we go. And of course, for me, I'm like, first of all, we're going to go to couples therapy because I want to make sure that, like, we can communicate and we're great at that. And second of all, I'm like, I want to make sure that we align long term. Because, I mean, how many times we see, oh, yeah, we got married. And then I found out that, like, they don't want kids.

And you're like, wait, you didn't have this conversation before. I know it's, yeah. It's like, if this isn't love is blind, I want to know what the reason is, you know. But I'm very guilty of having not had those very important, I mean, we had some conversations. There weren't none, but I'm also guilty of not having it. But yes, it's quite. shocking. It's very important. I was just being interviewed before this and I think there's interesting. I'm not religious, but you know, in a lot of religious circles and institutions,

people getting married, they will speak with their rabbi or their priest and do counseling before to prepare for the marriage. And I think that that's actually one ritual that is quite, that many people would benefit from before they tie the knot. I'm curious. When you had mentioned that your ex, and mind you, for everyone, and we're going to do a plug, get Gillian's book, because her book goes through a lot of this as well. But, okay, back to the show. So when you were saying that you guys had a couple's therapy

and you were like, it did not work, what did you start to notice? Because I had that same thing. I went to one session and I was like, oh, he's a narcissist. Okay, got it. What did you see in that that you were like, what's happening here? All I knew is that in the time that it was happening, that I didn't feel any better afterwards and nor did he.

And what I came to realize is that it's very important, in my view, as a couples coach or counselor or therapist, that you hold people accountable. And that if you have to take sides, you take sides. Now, it doesn't mean that you're not compassionate, but I have no interest in being a mediator and, like, translating. I want to get really deep into stuff. And I want to hold people incredibly accountable for things. You know, the blame game is not going to work with me. And if I think someone is actually really messed up, I will have a conversation with them separately and the other person. But yeah, there wasn't any, no, it wasn't tough enough.

Right. And that's one thing is like, listen, don't get me wrong. I love therapy. I mean, I'm a slut for it. I think go talk to someone, right? But I think we also have to be cognizant that therapists are also limited, right? They can't say certain things or they can't do certain things. And also some of them don't work in the ways to dating.

Yeah. You know, it takes a minute. So I totally understand how you're like, yeah, that didn't make me feel challenged. But I'm curious as well, like, when you look back now on that relationship? Because I think the really what I want anyone to get out of this is like, when do I know when to stay and when do I know when to go. How long, how many times along the way did you have the thought of like, I can't do this anymore? I'm done because like my anxious ass, I used to say that all the fucking time. Yeah.

But I never did anything about it. I just do this. And you're like, but here you are. I thought about it a lot, and I remember having a conversation with my mom, and I was very upset. And she said, do you think you made a mistake in marrying him? And she's like, because it would be okay. You know, it's just like, it's just a mistake. And I would say, no, I don't know.

I mean, it baffles me just how incredibly shut down I was to it and how afraid I was. But yeah, I definitely had moments where I was like, I want out. I think, and this is a really important thing, if you're someone who leans towards fearing abandonment and you're in a very challenging relationship. It's just very hard. It's not working out. And then that person does the thing that you've been fearing all along. They leave you. And then you go into this whole, you know, especially for people who lean towards fear of abandonment, there's like a devastation that lands on them that's really intense. And then it reinforces the story of I'm not lovable. No one ever loves me. I'm not good enough. What's wrong with me?

And what I feel so committed to helping people, especially those who lean towards the fear of abandonment to understand is, no, is to value freedom. And to value freedom so much that the fear of abandonment lessons. Because when you're out of a relationship like that, you're free. And I think that people don't, that's a very, no, no, this is something that I've been sort of like contemplating and pondering lately. unconsciously you wanted this. Like your soul or whatever you believe in, like you wanted this. But what you just didn't want is the pain and the loss and everything that comes with it. Part of my healing was understanding like I really, there was a part of me that really

want, I didn't want to continue because it just was too hard. So knowing when to stay or to go is one of the hardest things ever. And I get asked that all the time. I'm sure you do too. And my answer is, well, there's certain things. I think of any physical violence, it has to be over. 100%. Outside of it, well, just abuse is, there's no place for it.

There's no place for it. Nope. And so, you know, I've had people write to me often and say, you know, he hit me. Sometimes it's she hit me. You know, just this one time and they're in therapy and they're getting help. I don't care. I don't think the therapy's going to work. That's my thought.

I'm with you. I don't think the therapy is going to work. And if it does, it's going to take so long and get out if you can, you know, like do the best that you can to get out. While you can. Yeah. And then when to stay or go, it depends. You know, I do think that if you are in a very committed partnership like a marriage and you have kids and the two of you are having a hard time and there's no abuse or anything like that, but you're unhappy, I think you do everything that you possibly can before you exit so that when you do make the decision or, If you do make the decision to leave, at least you can say, you know what, I did everything I could.

I worked on myself. I worked on my communication skills because people don't really understand what it is to love someone. You know, I regard myself as a very nurturing, loving person. I think people in my life would say the same. But when pushed to the edge of my insecurity, I didn't really understand that love is not just about meeting needs. Yeah. So you have to sometimes, you have to transcend your fear, do you have to transcend your ego? Like truly loving someone in my view is learning how to do the act of love even when it's highly inconvenient. And so I think that before you leave, unless it's like you're so miserable, then, you know, consider these things. Consider, consider not only what you're not getting,

but consider perhaps of what they're not getting to. And, because everything is filled with nuance and paradox. I also believe that getting a divorce and breaking up is a human right. So if you're miserable, like, you know, let's, and your pattern is to stay too long, then it might be time to reevaluate things and get out. It's a very hard question to answer. Because like you said, there is no one, right? There's no one. Do this than this. Yeah. And the reality is no one's in your relationship, but hopefully, but you're on your burner. Yeah. But I mean, at least for me, when I was thinking, like, do I stay, do I go? What I really, I remember like that, last, you know, that last fight, right? We always look back at like the last one. It just,

the realization came where I was like, there's no progress. After everything we went through, we haven't progressed. You don't hear me. You don't get me still. And now it's escalating. Now we're going, the pendulum is swinging so severely to the left instead of the right or whichever. It's the point of no return. And you're miserable. And you're miserable. You're walking on eggshells. You're not eating. You're just regulated. I was a shell. I was like 30 pounds lighter than I am now, which is like scary. That is scary. And but when you're so, you're so. in it, like you were saying, when you're so in your shit and you're so pushed to the edge, and like at least, you know, do you know Britt Frank?

I talk about Brett all the fucking time. I love her. She's a neuropsychotherapist. Oh, okay. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So she, I remember we were talking in it. This changed the game for me. And I remember telling her one day, like, I'm feeling anxious.

I'm determined. And she looked at me and she was like, okay, you want to know what to tell your little? And I was like, no. And she goes, you already lost it. And I was like, what do you mean? I already lost it. And she was like, because your littles are scared of losing your mom and dad. She was like, your little doesn't care about who is this person.

You don't know who this person is. And you change it. And I was like, oh, because it's true. When you face your fears, like you said, when you face the, I'm so scared of that abandonment. Well, they did it, right? They left me. They're gone. Yes.

And I'm here. I'm alive. It's still intact. I'm totally fine. Not only in my life. You're thriving. So let's call it what it is. Yeah.

Then you start to realize like, oh, I am okay alone. Yeah. I can do this. And when you fall in love, of course, we don't want it to be like, I'm only okay single. You're like, no, no, no, we need to be triggered. Yeah. But I think that do I stay or do I go? Also, I wanted to talk to you about, because I think this plays into it, the gut, right?

The gut versus the anxiety. Yeah. And I wanted to get your take on like, how do you really, I have my own thoughts, but I want to hear yours, of the differentiation between, is this my anxiety talking? Is this my gut? How do I know when to leave? Yeah. Intuition and your gut really does come to you more or is revealed to you in quieter moments. when your nervous system is a little bit calmer, maybe after a long walk or a long conversation

with a friend, you can't hear anything that's going on, any messages from the inside when you're in a frenetic state. So you have to get a little bit calm. And honestly, you know, I find it, and I'd be curious to know your thoughts, I find it very beneficial to speak to some trusted counsel, whether it's a friend, a therapist or not. Someone who's objected. who you can say, you know, I struggle with this, I have some anxiety. What do you think about what I'm experiencing? And I think that's very helpful for people. 100%.

Yeah, you can't do it by yourself. No. When it comes to, at least for me personally, and like I'm sure most people, the learning to trust my gut wasn't something I was going to do without the help, right? Because I'm like, I don't know how to listen to it to begin with. How am I going to learn how to do it? You have to practice it. Exactly.

It's like going to the gym. You're like, you have to do this all the time. Yeah, yeah. What I really found for me the difference was, like you said, the intuition it's calming and it's for your highest good, right? Like, this doesn't feel right, I should go to safety, right? Versus that anxiety, it's like, it comes with a narrative. Yeah.

It comes with a body reaction. You start to feel the sensations and you're like, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. But then it also really starts to attack you. So it's not actually for your highest good. Yeah. Yeah. How could being, I'm not enough and I'm not good enough be in a benefit for you? Yeah.

Except to say, oh, that's how I see about myself. Yeah. Yeah. And so I, how long did it take you to, like, learn to listen to your gut? Was that one of the first thing you started to work on after or what does it take you a minute? I mean, I think that I was learning to listen to my gut about other things. But I would say, I would say really the healing journey of after all of that was really deciding to like listen. I may always have a meditation practice, a yoga practice.

But really, it's almost like stopping and being like, what do I feel right now? What's coming to me? And paying attention to really those moments, especially in the early morning. Yes. It's the early morning before you're fully awake, I find is like when a lot of things come. And so, again, it was also the practice of let me take a moment and pause and take a deep breath. What do I feel in my body right now? Yeah.

What feels right right now? And also, something that I find really interesting is that so much of the rumination or the, oh, I'm going to do that thing or I want to be chosen, so much of it is habitual. It's very habitual. And I think that there's not always, but sometimes there's like a trauma and a childhood explanation. But I have found it to be very helpful

to also see that we are creatures of habit. And sometimes you're doing things and it is literally because of a programming, you're habituated towards it. And sometimes when you can just say, oh, I'm doing that thing that I always do, that's a habit. That becomes a pattern

interrupt in that moment and that's when you can listen inside, I think. I love that. What's helped me a lot as well is when I hear a narrative, I'll be like, whose voice is that? Yeah. You know, because I'm like, oh, that's my dad. Call me a piece of shit. Like, that's not me. And then I'm like, what is my voice? Oh, she's just hurting right now. Yeah. And like, I can, I can look at her and like I can, I can hold space and compassion and ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma. And all those beautiful things when I can quiet the noise. And I think what a common misconception, and I'm glad you said this was like, it doesn't need to be that, my dad said this, that's why this person triggers me. It's like, I've had moments where I'll be like, I'm so triggered, I'm crying, and I'll be

like, oh, I feel emo. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm 15. And it's like, something totally different. Like, that was a friend that hurt me. And I've held on to that. And I've done it and I've done it and I've done it to the point where my brain loves familiarity. Shortcut. Exactly.

And another thing that's habitual is the meaning that one habitually assigns to certain things. Yeah. You have a habit. And I would call this one of the bad habits. It's one of the nasty habits. It's like you might have a habit of always assigning a negative meeting to certain things. And then assigning that meaning, then you have a really, it's very comfortable to be upset. What I've really seen now, because I was talking, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday,

and we were just saying, like, I don't encourage anyone to get hurt. I'm not asking, like, go date bad people. Yeah. But I am encouraging people to embrace the pain that they're in if they're in it. Yeah. And what I mean by that specifically is like, we are just getting further and further away from actually working through issues, and we're now just going to like, I don't like this, so I'm just not going to do it. I'm just going to avoid this.

I don't want to deal with it. Yeah. Nope, just get it out of my face. Cool. I can just block this thing and I don't ever have to look at it. Yeah, yeah. As opposed to like, well, but how am I going to grow if I'm not uncomfortable? Yeah.

How, I know for me I wouldn't be here. I feel like you too. If you didn't have all that, we may not be in these positions right now. Absolutely not. And that's the beauty of like, even, you know, right now I'm going to the fucking name change. And at first you're like, yeah, yeah, it's for the best. And it's like, and it's okay in moments to be like, I don't see it right now. Yeah, yeah.

Give me a year. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But I want us to like even just totally normalize like anyone that's listening. If you're hurting, that's okay. Go through it. Yeah.

Because if your story and my story aren't true testaments that you can fucking eat shit and still make it out the other side, like thriving? Yeah. I don't know what else. Yeah. So you are going to be our second person to kick off my new aspect of the show. It's not that new. I'm just calling it something new. Okay.

Amazing. We're speed dating. So, thoughts on the black cat theory. That's a good one. I'm very curious your thoughts. I have my own as we know. Who wants to be with a golden retriever? Right, because isn't the black cat theory is that's what a woman should be?

The man's supposed to be the golden retriever. But a golden retriever would get very boring after a while. I would argue to say so with a black cat. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I want to be either. Listen, that's an interesting conversation that is very much hyper-focused on the dance and the art of seduction that happens in the beginning. And so I think that people assign this meaning to the black cat of just sort of being aloof and whatnot. No, you just want to know your worth. But you don't, I mean, I love dogs.

I'm obsessed with dogs. And a golden retriever is a great dog. But you actually don't want that as a partner. You want someone who has their own mind and who can somewhat challenge you. This kind of reminds me of this whole speech about high value man, high value woman. And no, but I know, and it's, I can see you getting triggered and I get triggered by it too. But this, I think this is very interesting because to me, I've given this a lot of thought. I'm so curious what you think.

Because I think it's, don't you think it's sort of tied into the whole black cat sort of conversation? Same mentality. mentality. Same mentality of like, you know, how am I, how am I actually really projecting this image or being this person that actually is considered high value and kind of like, you know, whatnot. Certainly it's not good. You don't want to have love me, lovely, love me, love me, love me energy. But no one should be doing that. Everyone should be knowing their worth. To me, someone who is quote unquote, truly like high value is someone who lives more in their heart than they do in their head. And I have to really work on being more of that person as well. Someone who's like truly, truly high. Like, first of all, everyone has value no matter what. So it's the most ridiculous thing ever. That's, I think, my issue with it.

It's a huge issue with that. It's like, oh, because this person has this job or whatever, their high value because it's the most ridiculous thing. But if you were to quantify it, to me, the way to quantify is that someone is truly high value when they are live more in their hearts and they know how to communicate. And there's an emotional availability there. And I think that many of us have to be honest with ourselves. It's like if you want to be more high value, live more in your heart and less in your head and in fear.

And then, to me, you are extraordinary. I could not agree more. The reason I don't like these conversations, black and white. Yeah. Are you with this or you this? And it's like, are you a black cat or you this? I know, it's ridiculous. I'm neither, right?

I don't know about you. Absolutely neither. I don't get that vibe. I don't get the cat energy, but I also don't get the golden retriever energy. It's like I'm also just, maybe I'm just myself. But what I will say is this, if I were still very insecure

and my only objective was to reign in a man and seduce him, I would go for the, I might get seduced by the concept of the black cat energy, but everything that's fucking fueling that is insecurity. 100%. I was just, God, we were just like,

I was talking about this with Brian yesterday, and it was kind of that same thing where I was like, I just, for me, what this reads is like, you don't trust yourself. Because if you have to enter acting like something that's, oh, well, I want, ah, that's what it was. A woman had made a video. She's the same woman, of course it is. And she made another video, the woman who came up with the black cat theory of,

here's how to get someone obsessed with them and using their dopamine. And I was like, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. I'm done. Stop fucking manipulating people to try. Yeah, it's all insecurity to me. It's all fear. It's all the fear of abandonment. It's all, all of that is manifestation of fear, in my view. Feels like anxious and voiding, right?

A hundred percent. One person coming closer. Yeah. Because it's funny, my mom called me. And she was like, I don't know, mom, you tell me. And she's like, I don't want to be a black cat. They're feral. They're on the street.

I know. They're cold. I don't want that. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, yeah, it's true. And I don't want the golden retriever. What I hear is it's like you're trying to play the cool girl or the nice guy. Yeah, absolutely.

It's too one dimensional. It's too one dimensional. and it's, I think it just completely reinforces all the things that we're actually supposed to be moving away from if we want to be more conscious. God forbid. Yeah, exactly. All right. What are signs that somebody only wants you around when it's convenient for them? Oh, well, booty call.

Yeah. They don't actually want to spend quality time with you, but they are very happy to sleep with you. They're always busy, so then they, you know, I would say it's not. Not even when it's convenient for them. It's when they're bored. Yeah. And, you know, they're calling, like, you don't hear from them for a while. And it's like, then they hit you up and they're just like, hey, it's been so long.

Hey, you. Hey, you. They're bored. They're bored. It's a convenience. Someone who is invested actually really wants to get to know you. And they are like, they're all in. I haven't said.

If you even, if we're even asking the question of like, am I only there? It's like, then the answer is probably the question. Then the answer is probably, yeah. Yeah. Because I don't know about you. When I met Ryan, like. It was very clear that this person was trying to be. And it wasn't because he was over.

Like, it would, we didn't talk every day. We didn't text every single day. But there was clear plans, clear communication. Consistency. I want to see you. Consistency and reciprocity. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, to your point, if someone's always busy, like there is nobody

busier than someone that's not interested. Oh, 100%. And it's like, you know, and this is like, you know, and this is where nuance comes in where people are like, but you say it's okay to not text. And it's like, that's not talking about. Yeah, I know. What we're talking about here is. I know, it's hard to convey the nuance.

Yeah. Are you an option or a choice? Yeah, are you an option or a choice? Yeah. You're a priority because if not. And I think people make someone who they don't know a priority too quickly. And so I think in the beginning it's important that you actually have other things that are a priority other than this person. 100%.

As long as that night I'm your priority, right? Yeah, exactly. If you make the plan with me, that's your plan. Your plan. Absolutely. Okay. How to not feel guilty when you walk away? Well, again, every circumstance is different.

but who's to say that you're not actually doing the right thing for that person. That's true. And a lot of times, too, guilt is so deeply ingrained in us that for me, like, I know at least, I felt guilty sometimes walking away from people because you're like, who am I, right? I don't deserve to do that. I don't stand up for myself. And it's like, and I also think you're like maybe making yourself a little bit more important than you need to.

That's a good point. You're overconflate. You're overplaying your hand. Yeah, yeah, a little bit. appropriate expectations with clear timelines after first date around communication. I'm going to go ahead and say you can get off the wagon of very clear timelines because it's one date. One date. My issue is the word expectations.

Yeah, my issues with the word expectations as well. It's like after first date, go home and figure out what you feel about this person as opposed to what you're expecting from them. First date is just to see. They owe you nothing. I have no expectations. Yeah, first date to see if you want to have a second date. Yeah, that's it. That's it. That's it. Why is someone's a potential so attractive? I am so glad we asked this question because I think it's important. I think it's important because I think loving someone is loving them for who they are and loving them for who you believe that they can evolve into as well. So it's not that potential is always bad. Why do we love potential? Because we want to be the inspiration for their change. We don't. don't want to see who's really in front of us because that means that we're going to be still single and we're afraid that we're going to be single forever and we really want to get married and have kids and have a family.

We think that if I can really work on their potential, then I will be the person who helps them, then I'm very needed. And if I'm very needed, they will never leave me. There's a lot there going on. I also think stage of life is relevant. Yes. It's one thing to really see the potential in someone as a 20-something-year-old, and you're like, I'm about, you know, I love this person. They make no money. They can't provide. They can't whatever.

But I see the, I know who they're going to become. Versus in your like 30s, 40s, 40s, or 50s, 60s, and you're just like, okay, I don't think, you know, especially when it comes to work stuff, you know, it's stage of life. Yeah. Stage of life. And we do that. We project our ideals onto people all the time. That's the whole beginning lust phase.

It's not like, it's not I'm going to see you for who you are. I'm seeing you as I need you to be. Yeah. That's a really good distinction. Yeah. Okay. Last couple. Is lifestyle and spending habits a factor for deciding to stay or leave?

I'm just going to add that in. Absolutely. Yeah. That's to your point. Morals, ethos, ethics. Yeah, I think lifestyle is very important. Huge. Huge.

I think you have to agree on what a life well lived is. I'll never forget. One of my clients who I love. And now she's in a relationship, but she had hired a matchmaker. And the matchmaker put her on a date with this guy. She was like, I told him, like, you know, he asked me where I'd want to live. And so she was telling him, like, certain cities and states and things like that she would really like, okay, she would really like. Then the matchmaker calls her and she says, well, we need to have a talk. And my client's like, okay, what's going on? And she's like, you really, your rigidity on where you want to live is really turned off. It's just an off-putting turn-off to men. So I really think we need to adjust how you're. communicating that. And she was like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah, interesting. And I looked at her and I said, what did you say? She was like, I was just saying that I want to live in certain states that I don't want to live in certain states. She was like, I just know that like, I'm not probably going to want to live in humidity or in things. She's like, but I'm open. And that's where we have to say it's like that, that talk about projection. Yeah, no, that's serious projection. Obviously, you know, in a relationship, flexibility, I think flexibility is actually one of the most underrated relationship

skills. 100%. 100%. You know, and I think, and I actually think it's an underrated life skill. I think it's very important. You know, you have, one thing that yoga taught me is the balance of, like, where you need the stability and where do you need the movement. And that's always trying to figure it out. But I digress. Yeah, I think agreeing on what a life well lived is is very freaking important. Especially, like, I don't want someone that's like, oh, I have 200K in debt because I just go and spend a lot and like, whatever. And you're like, yeah, but you live with like six roommates. Like, what are we doing here? No, no, no, no, no, no. It's huge. Yeah. Huge. Okay. How do I know if I should blame my attachment style or actually leave?

Your one's attachment style, it could never take the blame of everything. And that what goes on in a relationship between two people is more complex and more layered. And it's never just an attachment style that is 100% to blame. Attachment style is woven into the tapestry of what is your relationship. But it's never just like, oh, was my attachment style that is the problem. Yeah. There's so much more to what goes wrong in a relationship that goes beyond. And one's attachment style is part of the conversation. It's not the whole conversation. In my view, in my humble opinion. And as I mentioned, too, it's like your attachment style might not be the reason that the relationship is going on, but it might be the reason you're with that person. Very good point.

So it's like, cool. But, and that's, you know, Ryan and I were talking. So I went to school for psychology. So it's fun to be able to pick his brain of like, oh, okay, so like you studied this. Yeah. And we were like reading a lot. People kept saying, oh, well, he's avoided. And Ryan finally stopped.

And he, like, we were live together. And he was like, can I clarify something? There's a very big difference between avoidant attachment and avoiding personality disorder. Yeah. And he was like, I think we're over conflating that, like, anxious attachment and avoidant attachment. It's like, that comes out in a trigger. Yeah. But that's not just like, oh, I was out to dinner and they were like super dismissive and cold.

And you're like, that person's. That's a, that's someone, that's a character defect. Exactly. That's not an attachment style. I mean, it's like an asshole too. You're like, yeah, yeah. Versus, yeah, the attachment. And so for me, what I would look here is like, are you having issues just when you're triggered?

Right. Okay, if that's the problem where you're in a figure of partner saying like, hey, whoa, like the pinch doesn't match the out. All I said was this. Like, did I upset you? Yeah. That's when we can then go, hey, I think it's my attachment. I'm projecting onto you. This is my core wound.

Yes. But I think I just, I try to stay away from the attachments in a lot because, yes, it's important. And I know I've seen your work on like, it might not be that you're anxious attachment. You might have somebody that's also just like really not being clear and communicative. Yeah. Where I see the attachment. is like, how are you showing up? And that's how we'll be able to see, is it my attachment?

Or are you just being an asshole? Yeah, I agree. I think that, you know, there's the attachment style, but then sometimes it's, we have to really bring into the conversation character defects. Some people have very strong character defects. And it's, and their attachment style is just part of it, but it's actually them and their character. And it's not just avoidance. It's like that avoidance who's like a complete nightmare.

No, it's, yes, maybe they have some avoidance in them, but what makes them a complete nightmare to be in a relationship with has to do with actually their character. It's like, they're a narcissist. What makes them a narcissist? Well, they're super self-centered. You're like, that's not what that means. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And we're just willy-nilly throwing this. And I think it's because it's been TikTok University has done a great job.

Oh, my God. But it's really, I think it's really, it's taken away. It's a double-edged sword. Our voices get to get amplified, but other people's get to get amplified. Correct. And it was like, there's one creator. I don't say, I don't ever talk negatively specific about their name, but I will talk about their content. Yeah.

And he made a video saying, to all my anxious attachment, like, a secure man will heal your anxious attachment. And I was like, are you like, this talk about a selling a false villa goods. One, good luck. Go find someone who's just all secure. Yeah, exactly. They don't heal shit for you. You do the work, but they create a space for you to do that. Yes, yes.

Okay, I'm glad we're both on this. No, we're totally on the same page. I mean, of course, you know, if you've been with a bunch of people who don't give you love and then you're with someone who actually gives you love, that is very, very healing. And you'll still have to confront yourself inside of the relationship. I've had so many amazing guys when I was in my anxious days and it's like, I said no. You know, what you're like? I'm not into them.

Yeah, 100%. Just because you're anxious and you have a secure person doesn't mean you'll be able to receive that. And they're not going to heal that because you also have to be ready to do that. Yeah. And you know, my ex-husband was avoidant leading, but he didn't have the pattern of let me find a flaw so I can get out of this. It was more in the beginning. It was more like once like he was triggered inside of the relationship where it started to come out. So, you know, there's, again, it's such a spectrum. It is such a spectrum. It's, and that's, I'm like glad that we were able to like talk about different aspects of it and have your expertise and have your personal experience because I, great, you can have all the clinical, you know, studies and, you know, studies and, you know, the world, but without the life aspect of it as well, I call you full of shit. You don't know what I feel like. Yes, you do.

Yes. Oh, Jillian, I am just so grateful, honored. Thank you for being here. Thank you for restoring your wisdom. Everybody go get the book. Please, can you plug the book a little bit? Yes. It's called It Begins with You, the Nine Hard Truths About Love that will change your life.

I'm so excited, Jillian. Gillian, turecki.com slash book. I was about to say, yeah, where can people find you? Jillianarecki.com slash book or, you know, anywhere on social media. and my podcast, Jillian on Love. Perfect. And we're going to link everything. We'll link the book so everybody can go buy it. Amazing. And I'm excited. Did you guys leave comments and let us know what you think?

Yes. Thank you for having me. Of course.