The Sabrina Zohar Show - 121: Why 'No Contact' Is So Important—and How to Finally Move On With Kendra Allen

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Why is it so damn hard to stop thinking about an ex? In this episode, Sabrina sits down with breakup coach Kendra Allen to get real about the obsessive thoughts, shame, and emotional spirals that keep you stuck. They break down why no contact isn’t just a rule—it’s a lifeline for breaking toxic thought loops and reducing anxiety. You’ll learn why missing someone doesn’t mean they’re right for you, how to process resentment when they move on first (without doom-scrolling their socials), and why some breakup questions will never be answered—but that’s okay. Plus, Kendra shares her go-to strategy for letting go of anger (hint: it involves a “screw you” letter). If you’re ready to stop waiting for time to heal you and actually move forward, hit play. 🚀 Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babes. We are almost a Valentine's Day and you know what that means. We are coming in hot and strong and I am going to give you the best of the best. And this week we have Kendra, the breakup bestie. I love Kendra. Such a fun episode. And in the vein of keeping the intro short, I'm not going to give away too much of what we talk about besides the fact that we're going to help you get over the breakup. Guys, you know as always, more support. There's the breakup course with me and Britt Frank. There's the foundation course. There's the nervous system course. Masha and I help you guys with the pain points of the nervous system, how to regulate.

Everything you need is going to be in the link in show notes. Thank you to our supporters. Please, please. Don't forget to show them some love. And as always, please, rate and review the show. With fucking kindness, please. It's the only thing I will say. You can say whatever you want, but there's a way to say it. And please just share it with a friend. It means the world, and it really is the only way we can grow. So you know what, without further ado, let's just get right on into it, shall we? Well, hello, Kendra. Hello. I'm so excited to have you in studio.

Welcome to the Sabrina's O-Harshow. Thank you for having me. Of course. Now, before we get started, because I'm super excited to have you. I know that you are the breakup bestie, right? It's in the handle. It's in the name. And it's like, we are going to take full advantage of that.

But the reason I wanted to really have you come today wasn't so that we could talk about the same shit, right? It's like, I think we all see out there of like, you know, we can either villainize our X or Doom, scroll or, you know, time heals all wounds. And it's like, it doesn't actually. It's like what you do with the time that actually matters. So today I'm really excited because I wanted us to talk about not just breakups, right? Because I think for anybody that's dealing with that right now, you're already done with it. So now we could talk about really what comes after it. And for anybody that is listening that may not be in a breakup right now, I also want to encourage everybody there. There's nothing to be scared about, right? Like, this isn't the end all be all. A lot of

the stuff that we're going to talk about today is really to help you whenever you get there in your journey. But before we do all that, Ms. Kendra, can you please introduce yourself, share a little bit more about you, your history, and just how you became who you are today. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always joke with the fact of I never thought I'd be a breakup person on the internet, you know? Oh, I do. So I started this Instagram account, your breakup, Bestie, which I was looking through my old notes. At one point, it was going to be breakup buddy. And I'm like, really glad we went with Bestie on that one. But I started the Instagram account in 2017, started my podcast in 2020, and I have a couple courses. But I really started this because I've always had a coaching background. I used to do wellness

coaching. And then I was in recovery coaching for a little bit for people with addiction. And I went through a breakup in 2015 and being in the 12-step community, I went through it kind of loudly or just out there. You know, I shared what was going on. with me. I shared my process of going through the breakup. And I kind of became the breakup bestie for my community. And I started being the person of, oh, you're going through a breakup. Why don't you call Kendra and ask what she's been going through? And I just started writing how I went through the breakup. And then as I was going through a career change, my now husband asked, what do you really enjoy doing? And I said, I really like talking about breakup. So I said, I'll start this Instagram and

see, you know, where it evolves. And what's interesting, I haven't been through a breakup in a really long time. But the gift that I have is I hear from thousands of people on a monthly basis of what they're going through with breakups. And so I've been able to see what are people struggling with, what are the big, you know, and being able to talk to so many experts now, it's been so cool to get such a more holistic view about breakups over the last seven years that I've had the account. I'm curious, totally off. No. But like, what is something that has been really interesting to you that you've learned along the way when it comes to breakups? I think the biggest thing has been the difference between men and women. I started this account really just, it used to be in my bio. I help women go

through breakups. And then I started getting messages from men. Why aren't you, why is it not for me? You know? And when I was doing coaching, I tell people the surprising thing was 50% of my coaching clients were men. Same. And it's because they don't have that same kind of community that women can have with their friends. So that's been the, I think that's been the biggest thing that I have seen throughout time is men struggle just as much, if not more, in certain ways, with their breakups. Oh, 100%. I could not agree more. I've tried to make all my content they, because it's like, none of this is unique to just one gender, unless we're talking very gender norms of like, who should text first after the date. You know, okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I've,

I've morphed so much of my content focusing on everyone, because everyone goes through this. I see this every day. I hear a couple of things more often than I don't. I hear there are more women than men on apps and men have all these options, right? And then I usually hear like, oh, well, women are the one that struggle after breakups. The guys just move right on. And those are such myths because the first one being a myth debunked is 30% of the apps are actually women. 70% are men. So it's actually you have a higher propensity.

The problem is those 30% of women are all going to the 0.001% guy, right? We all want the 65 blonde hair, blue-eyed finance guy. So they're not really giving because a good portion of the people on the apps are under 5-8, 5-9, 5-10-ish, that area. But the next aspect, which I'm glad you brought that up, is that men and women both struggle with dating. And I was curious because I don't necessarily want to bring this out in attachment styles, but what are the differences that you've seen or the similarities that you've really seen? Because it's like, sure, somebody avoided, blah, blah, blah, they just, eh. But if we put that stuff aside, if we're really looking at men and women and what they kind of deal with, I'd love to hear a little bit more from you as you've worked with them. if you've seen major differences or similarities.

So many similarities, definitely some differences, but I think it's, I don't know if it's, the differences are necessarily men versus women. I think when we look at attachment styles, there are definitely some differences, but that's, you know, gender universal. I'd say the biggest similarities that I see people deal with is the obsession and the innate need to reconnect with their ex in some way. I think everyone experiences that and everyone also feels shame around the fact that they feel that and they don't recognize that that is a universal thing that we're all going to go through.

I think shame is so, that's a big thing that I've learned. Shame is so connected with breakups and it's such a obstacle that we need to go through to get through a breakup is letting go of the shame and how much we beat ourselves up and how much we say it was my fault, I wasn't good enough, all of this stuff. And then feeling shame for the feelings that you're having. having about the breakup and we just layer it on top of each other and just make it so much worse. It's like this vicious cycle. Yeah. It's interesting now being out of it. Like I'm sure you get what I mean. When you're

out of it and you see it and you're like, how could you think that? Totally. Okay, how can you think that as being a human? Like I remember going through every major breakup, you know, like the biggies. And I think the longer I was with them, the easier the breakups become, right? Because I know who you are. I've seen every part of you. I don't have fantasy or limerence. I'm not idealizing you. I'm not fantasizing you. It's like, I'm not, I've seen how shitty you can be and I've seen how terrible you treat me. But what I really see kind of on the flip side, and I'd love to hear even your thoughts on like how to actually move through this is this fantasy, this ideization, this projection of like,

but you know what, no, I'm, everything's wrong with me and there's nothing wrong with them. And to your point, this shame of like, well, no, if I don't have them, I have no one else and this was my shot and all of those moments. And I'm just curious to hear a little bit more from you, like, how do you help people move through that because it is crippling. Yeah. It's absolutely crippling. And I think the biggest thing that I tell people is if your best friend came to you and went through a breakup, you would never think you're done. Sorry, that was your last chance. Like I do think so many of us believe that we only get a certain number of chances to have a loving relationship in our lives. And any breakup we go through,

it's like, well, that's gone. Now I only have one chance left or no chances left. And you would never look at your best friend and say, you're never going to find someone again. You would say, oh my gosh, what a shame that that person couldn't see that in you. I can't wait to see who you can be with in the future. So it's, we're so hard on ourselves. And I think look around for friends that you've, I like the, like the term expanders of looking to your friends who have gone through breakups and then have found partners. Like, look how much it exists. And it's really self-centered in some ways, I think, to believe that we're not, like, it's going to happen for everyone else except us. Right. You know, and it's, it's self-centered, even though we're beating

ourselves up about it, it is this self-centered thing that we think were the exception to the rule. It's very like Miocopina. Like, oh, wo is me. Let me get the smallest violin in the world. Yes. And again, it's not shame or blame. It's about being realistic that it's like when I fucking hear, and I'm sure you hear this every day of like, I'm scared of this because I don't want to get hurt. And it's like, first of all, every person on the entire planet has been hurt. I don't know anyone that's never had their heartbroken, that's never been sad, that's never been devastated, that's never been ghosted, except no, even my sister who's been with her husband for 20 years has been hurt before the guys she met before my husband. Yeah, and if it's, you've

met that person, they're boring. Exactly. And so at the end of the day, it's like every single person is going through the same struggles, but yet here we are on this fucking island thinking, nope, it's just me and there's no one else. And like you're to your point, it is very egocentric to say, well, I'm never going to find anybody and I'm never going to do this. And it's like, you know what that sounds like you sound like a kid. Totally. Right? And it's like, that's okay. It sounds like dysregulation. Yeah. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa, whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one.

For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk. Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. I took the questions from the audience, right? Like, we're really, we're listening to you guys. We want to help you in the ways that you need. So let's start to tackle some of this shit and start to understand and like undo

breakups so that we can help everybody kind of come back together. So the first one was, how do you once and for all walk away from a toxic on again, off again relationship when you truly love them? This is an interesting thing. Going back to what we were just saying about the kind of I'm the only person, almost everyone who's going through a breakup still loves the person. So that's not a reason to go back to the person or missing them doesn't mean you're meant to be with them. Still loving them doesn't mean you're supposed to be back in the relationship with them. So kind of casting

that part aside. But I think the biggest thing that the biggest mistake I see people make with going back to X's is they keep talking to them. You know, like you do, this is where I relate so much to sobriety, which that's a big part of my story. when I got sober, I could not keep a bottle of wine in my kitchen. I couldn't have that in front of me. There was a certain period of time where I could not be around alcohol. Now it's different. For me, it's different. Now I have no problem doing it. But at the beginning, I couldn't because it would be so hard to go back to that. So when you're still texting with your toxic ex, even if it's just friends or you just want to keep that, you know, I still care about them. So I'm going to keep in touch with them. You have to all that aside, you have to go for, I believe you have to go.

with abstinence of walking away from that person, getting rid of their photos off your phone, not having reminders of them around your house. We're already going to be so triggered by thinking about an ex after a breakup. Get rid of anything that is within your control of, okay, I'm going to get rid of this. Don't listen to certain songs for a period of time. Don't put yourself in situations where you're going to think about them even more than you already are. So I think having a really hard black and white line of I'm not talking to them again. I'm not going to see them. And then focusing on yourself. It's so hard to do any of the work when you're still talking to them because you're going to try to take your healing journey in a way that's going to bring you back

to them. Oh, 100%. And a big thing that to me is like, when you're struggling to walk away from an on again, off again, because the excuse is, well, I truly love them. This is where two things. One, I have to say, well, what about holding two conflicting truths, right? I can love somebody and think that you're an amazing person and also know that you're not right for me. But then, too, I would start to challenge and say, what loop are we on? Because it's the, but I love them loop. And it's like, so where did you learn that loving someone means that they can treat you however they want? Or that loving someone means that they can treat you however it is, but you always have to show up and put your needs aside in order to keep that love. Yes. And I'm curious, too,

because it's like, have you ever had that? Have you ever been where you're like just so, because you've been with your partner for so long. Yeah. But I will say I start, I feel like, I started in the toxic relationship realm early, which I'm, you know, I'm grateful for in some ways, but I was in a horrific relationship when I was 18, was with a guy who was 30. Like, just, it was so bad. And thinking back to the thought loops I was in of, I'm going to let them treat me however they want to because I don't deserve any better. They're telling me they love them, so I must, you know, keep going back to them.

It's, I can be very sympathetic to people who are stuck in that cycle because it is so hard to break free. And I really think you need actual physical space because for me to break that cycle, I went on vacation with my family. I was away from the person for a week. And that was like the spell was broken. And I still had a long way to go healing wise. But I needed that space because it's so hard to break free when you're in it. Oh, 100%. That's why. So Britt Frank and I, we have the breakup course. Yeah. Britt's very similar to you. Like a lot of these principles come from the addiction world because it's an addiction. It is. You're. You're, brain literally responds to it like it would to heroin, opiates, alcohol, anything like that. It's the same

physiological mechanisms that are going on. 100% of the first thing she said, one, was this is going to suck and you need to know that, right? Like, yeah, I know even when I'm withdrawing to a mold detox, the shit is fucking brutal. And even when I started, the first thing she said to me was like, don't expect this to be easy, right? And it's like, thank you for setting that stage for me. And I knew going into it, it's like, was it harder than I thought? Of course. But what did that do? That built my confidence. Because then I was like, look, I did it. I stayed. I stayed the course. Yeah.

And the first thing I remember when when Britt and I were doing this, she was like, when I say no, no, no, this doesn't just mean you're not texting them. She's like, papal places and things. You got to change your environment. You've got to change your surroundings. You've got to also really start to acknowledge, for me, this was a big game changer, was the narrative. It was really understanding like, wait a minute.

This entire time, like for two months after my ex and I broke up, this was the big ex. on a loop of everything's my fault. I fucked this up. There's something wrong with me. I'm a piece of shit. Nobody wants me. This is why he didn't want to be with me. See, I messed everything up. And thank God I had a really strong therapist at the time who challenged that. And it was the first time that I started to realize like, well, it can't all have been my fault. And even just having that thought that broke the loop allowed me to start to go, I need to take the shine off this person. He's not that amazing. Because if he were that amazing, we'd still be together.

He's not that thoughtful. Because if he were, I wouldn't be upset with him for treating me like a piece of fucking trash. But I think for me, I'm curious your thoughts, I find a huge red flag, like massive internal red flag when I'm scared to actually articulate and verbalize what I don't like about somebody, right? Like when I'm dating people, you know, you get that sense of relief when the breakup happens almost so that you're shocked that you're so relieved. But prior to the relief, and I'm, of course, nobody wants to be with me. After the narrative, though, or before the narrative, what I've really noticed is I find myself, like, if I can't admit and say, oh, I don't like that they do this, that is a huge indication that I'm not actually seeing the situation for what it is.

Yeah? The breakup I went through in 2015 was exactly that. The guy kept saying he doesn't know if he wants to get married. He doesn't know if he wants to have kids. And there was this, and he was like, maybe that'll change. And so anytime I tried to bring it up of, where are you at with this? I wouldn't because I would think, well, what if this leads to the breakup? And then, But in that moment, I think that if I can avoid the breakup for long enough, it'll change. But looking back, that's wild of, yes, if I want to get married and I want to have kids and they don't, the breakup has to happen. So if we can think about what would life look like if you had to continuously mold yourself

into the person that this person needs to be with, if that makes sense of like, okay, I would need to change my future goals. I would need to change this. If you can't bring that stuff up, then what's the relationship? What's the relationship? And then you're going to end up resentful. They're going to end up resentful. It's not going to work in the long term.

And now being, I have three kids, like relationships hard. You know, it's hard right now. And to think of all the things that I could have potentially put up with with other partners in this same space, it would not have worked. So it's, you know, I think you have to play the tape through of if you can't bring this up now because you're trying to avoid a breakup. What is that going to do 10 years from now? And spoiler alert, Kendra's husband is not this person, right?

Well, current husband. Yep. It is him? Mm-hmm. Shut the fuck up. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Unpack that for me. Because on paper, that would never talk to me.

Okay. So this is, I always bring this up when people start asking, like, can you go back to an ex? And I have a lot of disclaimers when it comes to this. But yes, my current husband is my last breakup in 2015. We broke up and we did not. We had no contact for 18 months. No, I was dating someone else. We did not talk. We unfollowed on social media. I deleted his number from my phone. All the photos were gone. I did the thing. And we saw each other at a wedding,

18 months later. I was with another person, full-blown, had a boyfriend. And three weeks after the wedding, I got an email saying, I really need to talk to you about some things in person. Would you be open to getting coffee with me? And we're in AA. A men's are kind of a thing. that we do. So I assumed that's what it would be. And we sat down and he had this long letter that he had written me of all the things he had done in the last 18 months. Therapy, stayed single, all the things. And basically said, I realized during this time independently that I wanted to get married. I want to have kids. And when I saw you, I realized I think I want it to be with you. And I left the coffee. I didn't say one way or another. And four days later, I called him and realized I wanted to give it another chance.

See, what I love about this, though, and I love, I love a new story, right? Yeah. Like, I'm such a fan of perspective shifts because it's like me. I fuck my partner on the first date. When people hear that, I'm like, you know, you could still. Yeah. You could still be happy. Yes.

But it's, I'm always so cautious to share the story because I don't want anyone, like when I share that story and someone says, that gives me hope. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want it to give you hope. If anything, it should give you hope that if you follow the path to healing and if you take care of yourself, the right person will come into the picture because I know if it wasn't Luke, it would have been someone else. Well, here's a thing. And I will say, what you described beautifully is not this false sense of bullshit of like, oh, we just got back together. It's like my mama always

said, what you're getting back together, but what you didn't even work, right? So you're not getting back together. What you did so beautifully was, I moved on with my life. I surrendered. I didn't have any expectations. And he, on his own, did work on himself, came back. We had a conversation and we realized that we could almost two years later, 18 months later. That to me is enough time for growth. There's enough time of self-awareness of all those. Had you come and told me, oh, a month later, I'd have been like, bullshit. If I got back with him a month later and had a breakup podcast, I would not be able to sleep at night seriously. I honestly, I remember calling a friend and she said, what if he tells you he's in love with you? And I said, there's no,

I honestly, I thought he was going to tell me he was sick or that like he was gay or, you know, there was so many things that I thought he was going to tell me aside from I want to get back together and I would propose tomorrow. You know, there's so many different, there's so many different things that I would have expected. It was so out of left field. And what I like to is like, you didn't walk into this being like, right person, wrong time. It's like, no, this person wasn't for me at that moment. If they come back, great. And if they don't, they don't. Because I have sure as fuck had that. Like I remember I broke up this guy before, like early 2022. So this was a year before I met Ryan. And it was the first time I ever set a boundary.

Like, it was the first time, like, I really stood up for myself and said, like, I'm not going to allow your emotional and availability to continue to impact me. Like, that was, you know, you have like a six-month thing that was shortened down to a month. So I was really proud of myself for the progress. Again, progress and not perfection. And I remember about like nine months later, I kind of reached out to the like, hey, you know, just like I've been thinking about you, wanted to see. And I'll never forget.

It was one text. It was one simple fucking text. And, well, first he said, let me take you to do. dinner. And at first I was like, wait a minute, you're in L.A. Oh, wait, and that was like that first spidey sense that came up where I was like, because he didn't live there. And I'm like, wait, you're here and you didn't contact me. I had to contact you and you've been here the whole fucking time. But it was one little thing that he said, it was like, he texted me later that like I said, okay, fine. And even my mom was like, are you sure you want to do this? And I said,

well, I need to see if anything's changed. And I'll never forget. He texts me like the next day, like, hey, babe, totally forgot about dinner tonight. Can we do nine o'clock? And I remember just writing, no, thank you, not interested. And that was never spoke to him again. Because I gave the benefit of the doubt. I gave the space. I worked on myself. I realized the issues. The second I saw, though, this is bullshit. You're still the same fucking person. That is when I said, no, thank you. And I ended up meeting Ryan three months later. Because when we actually say no, when you create space, right? And for you, it was creating space for you to allow yourself to evolve, to grow, and him as well. But hypothetically, like you said, if it wasn't him, it would have been

someone else. When you release control the outcome, like when I broke up with the guy right before Ryan, And I cried because more just being sad, right? I'm a human. And I was like, but I wasn't crying about him. I was frustrated within myself that, you know what I mean? Like, God damn it. But I'll never forget. And I met Ryan three days later.

Like, again, gives you hope, but please don't think that this is going to be everyone's norm. The reason being is when you actually make space for what's for you, you allow those things to actually come into your fucking life. The more you hold on to this. Like, someone asks, how to go no contact when your ex breadcrumbs you. And it's like, baby, this is bullshit. Like, I'm sorry.

But the fact that you are even. considering your ex is breadcrumming you, meaning he's not giving you enough, you're not satisfied, you're not satiated, you know that they're an ex for a fucking reason. But yet still, we're still sitting here saying, but I'm struggling to go no contact. And what I hear personally is like, I'm not choosing myself. I'm waiting for the other person to choose me. And maybe my heart goes out to you. You know this is said with love. But that's where I have to go and say, is that what you think you deserve? Well, we're talking about cycles here. And when I hear that question of how do I go no contact when my ex is breadcrumming me, I hear a lot of anxiety, which I can 100% sympathize with.

my God, yeah. I'm feeling a lot of anxiety. You're going to continue. If you think about being breadcrumbed, I've been there. It's so anxiety producing because you're like, when am I going to hear from them? How long should I wait to text them back? What should I say? I don't want to go too overboard. I don't want to be the one that initiates it. Just all of those, oh my gosh, it's, it's maddening, you know? And the number one thing I hear from people who go no contact, that's a big thing I talk about on my platform is no contact. It's the number one thing I think helps with breakups. Anxiety goes down.

That's the number one thing because if you're just constantly waiting for something to happen to you, but if you take control and say, no, I'm turning this off, I'm done. Yes, you're sad. And it's going to be hard, but you won't be anxious because you're not going to be waiting for something to happen or not. And you're not going to be trying to formulate the perfect response to them. You're going to be able to just focus and be, you know? Yeah.

because what's anxiety it's fear of the future? So, of course, if you're like constantly, and we have to think it's an addiction loop, right? Like that's, again, what Britt talks about all the time of this fucking breakup course that I love, join it if you guys want, but is really just the addiction loop, right? Like every single time, and she described it, she was like, imagine when you're going to go, you get the drug, right, and you're setting it up. And she's like, that's that dopamine. It's the reward, the anticipation, the anticipation.

I don't know about you. Maybe, maybe this is a personal thing. I know for me every single time. Like, don't get me wrong. Drugs, alcohol, like, they all have a place. They're all fun for what they have. But it's never as fucking fun as the anticipation of it. No.

The actual of it, you're like, oh, this is it? Okay, well, I want another. Now I want something heavier. Now I want to do more. Because the anticipation of it is where we have hope and then where we have disappointment. So in your work, I know you talk about this a lot. Do you have tips? Do you have aspects?

What are things that you really love to talk about when it comes to no contact that might help folks besides just like just don't talk to them anymore? Right. Yeah. Just turn off your desire to want to talk to them. Right. Playing the tape through, exactly what you just said. This is my favorite story to share. is when Luke broke up with me, it was like two weeks before his birthday.

And this is so funny, one of the number one questions I'm asked, do I text my ex happy birthday on their birthday? Yes. Such a big question. So this is how I learned the answer to this. I wanted to text him so bad on his birthday. And I did that thing where you asked like 15 of your friends because you're just hoping one person says like, yeah, it's fine.

Go ahead and do it. And I asked one of my guy friends and I said, should I text? I really want to text him. Do you think it's a good idea? And he said, Kendra, I want you to picture texting him. And then thinking, what's the only response you would feel happy with receiving back? What's the only response? And I thought, and it was, I miss you so much.

I made a mistake. Thank you so much for texting me. You just made me think about you and realize I want to be back together with you. And what do you think he would say back? Thank you. Thanks. Or nothing. Or nothing at all.

Yeah. Or heart. How would you feel with that? Devastated, you know, way more devastated than if I just didn't send the text at all. So playing the tape through, what would you be happy with? And what are you likely to receive back? And are you okay with that? You know?

And most of the time it's you're going to be severely let down and you're going to feel way worse. So I tell people write down what you want to say to them. You should get it out of your body, get it out of your psyche, write it down, wait 24 hours, read it again tomorrow. How would you have felt if you sent that text? What you're describing beautifully is thinking of future you. Yeah, exactly.

I do that all the time of like, okay, if I, I want to say this, like, how am I going to feel if this goes this way? And you're like, oh, I'm going to be gutted. I'll be devastated. I'm like, cool, this isn't worth it then. And to your point, I loved, I'm a big queen of. Instead of texting them, I'm texting you. Yes. And I would send that to my friends. I would have specific, especially like when you're going through a breakup. Like I had one of my best friends. She was going through a pretty gnarly breakup over the beginning of the year. I already told her, I'm anticipating if I get random texts from you that don't make sense. And if it's anger and it's like a lot. I'm like,

that's okay, send it to me. Get it out of your head, especially writing, right? Literally, pen to paper activates a different part of your brain. Write them the letter. Have this whole, like my ex to this day, which I don't know if anyone ever actually knew this, my big ex, like the biggie, right? Yeah. The bad ones. Because for the most part, like in my history, especially like when I used to be so anxious to the point where like I remember I sent, this is a famous story of mine, but I sent a 193 text to somebody or 173 because he broke it up with me after like four dates, right? Just this manic, like, please don't leave me. It was that abandonment and that anxiety. It wasn't me, right? It It was the scared little girl inside that didn't know any fucking better.

And then the pendulum swung. After that, it was, I used to tell guys, like, be careful. If you end it, that's it. Like, I don't go back. We're not doing after him because he was my second chance person. When he and I broke up, like, I kicked him out of the house. And that was the last time we ever spoke. Like, even to the point where he came to pick his shit up.

And I was with my, like, I was on FaceTime with my best friend. And she was like, I'm going to be with you until he walks out the fucking door. You're not saying a word. Yeah. And I remember, like, the strength that it took for him. him to walk out that door and for me, because every time I'd grab my phone and every time, and people always think like, no, did you guys beg? I've never spoken to him since. Literally, that is the last conversation we ever had. But what really helped me move on was every time I wanted

to be like, I was about to say his name, like, blank, like I miss you. You know, we are meant to be together. Like, I'm sorry, maybe I fucked up. Like, what can I do to make this better? I constantly reminded myself, wait a minute, he reminds you or your father. How would your dad respond? And I was like, oh, that's not going to make me feel very good. And in. I wrote it and I journaled and I would meditate. I would have these inner child meditations where I'd be crying with him and I would be holding him. But I did that privately and I burned the papers.

Like I did all that stuff because it allowed me to finally accept and acknowledge. And like I remember seeing him for the first time, right? Like this is a big fear I hear a lot of people have as like, oh my God, but what if I see my ex online? What if I see that in person? Let me just share. I'll never forget walking in New York City and I saw that motherfucker with another girlfriend, a thrift store version of me.

Like she was just, I was just like, really? Like that's the next girl. And I remember I was like listening to a song And it was just like that song that got me the deal do a Lepa one That breakup song and I whipped in front of them I like walked around them and I skirt it off And I remember I like felt really empowered and then I went home and cried And then I saw him on hinge and I did all that and I was like wait a minute

Here's the thing By facing it by doing it it made it a lot less scary I was no longer scared anymore because I was like I already saw him on there I didn't call him come to pieces I found a hotter fucking guy I had a better date I ended up seeing it and I was like I saw my ex and every time we saw each other he got better and better to the point where now, what is it, six years later, almost seven years, you came up on my insta the other day and he didn't even know what was him. Like, you know, when at first you're like, I know that, oh. Oh, yeah. That is what I mean by like, I know that in the

moments it might feel awful and you feel like you're going to die. But I promise you, no one dies of a broken heart. It feels like you will, but you're not actually going to die from that. You'll die from probably complications of it. No, and here's the thing. I think so many people have it backwards where they think once they feel confident in themselves, they can stop talking to their ex. Yeah. But what they don't understand is every time they don't send the text, you're gaining confidence. Yep. That's where you're getting your strength.

You can't wait for the strength to come. You have to do the hard things. And they might be the little hard things of, okay, I'm not going to text them. I'm not going to look at their social media. I'm not going to do this. And after you do that enough times, you're like, oh, shit, I feel calm. I feel confident. I did the hard thing and now I don't want to do it anymore. To be able to stop and say, I do get to choose. I do have power. Now, you might not like the choice.

Yeah. Right. You might not love the choice. But I remember Case Kenny, he always told me you'll get what you want, which is them or you get what you need, which is clarity. It truly is a win-win. And you're like, oh, fuck, that's good. How do you deal with the rage and resentment when they start doing everything you begged them to do just with someone else? Yeah. That's a very common question. And here's the thing. So it's two parts. The first part is remembering that the thing that you're seeing them do for someone else is only a very small sliver of reality.

You're seeing – because what? You're either seeing it on social media. You're hearing about it like secondhand. So that's just not reality. It's also probably the beginning part that you're seeing. And you have to like play the tape through. Play the tape through. It's going to change.

The way I picture it is specifically. the question of they couldn't commit to me, why can they commit to someone else? That's a big thing. If you get broken up with because the person couldn't commit and then you see them committing to someone else, what does that mean about me? The way I picture it is sometimes we require more. Like I might require more to be in a relationship and that's a good thing. Maybe they found someone who was okay with the bare minimum when it came to commitment. So you just have to remember like if they're giving that to someone else, maybe it's because that person requires less. And I don't want to be the person that requires the least in a relationship. You know what I mean? So it's like,

one, you're probably not getting the full picture. And two, like, that means you want more, you want more out of a person. And there are some people that don't require less. Maybe they feel insecure. So they're like the littlest thing they're so excited about because they're just used to receiving the bare minimum. And you don't want the bare minimum. And you know what? What I hear from that question and I get it. It's such a human question. When I used to ask that, it was the same thing I'd ask my dad. Why are you choosing that family over us? Like, are they better than us? And it was like, yeah, because that's where that comes from, right? It's like, because as the adult, now, when you said it, the first thing that came to my mind and chose you how much fucking work I

to do to get here was, well, they're just not my match. Like, they're not my person, right? That was the, but prior to that, where did I go, there's something wrong with me? I'm not enough. What is I not enough? And it's like, to your point, like, I had one of my friends. And she went through. And then this guy was like pretty textbook narcissist. You know, like, I'm not going to diagnose him. But when you're like, it looks like a duck and it looks like a duck and it looks like a duck and it's a fucking piece of shit. Like there was nothing redeeming about him. And every time my friend, like she was months, this was last year, months hung up on him. And I really had to like help her through this. And of course what happens like two months later after he ends up with her, he sees him at the

gym with a new girl. And it's the whole thing. And you know, the girls come posting on Instagram, how it's the love of her. life and this and I kept reminding my friend. I was like, it's only been two months. I'm telling something doesn't make sense here. Sure enough, what happened? Fast forward to this year when we found out the girl had a mental breakdown because the guy was so abusive to her and gaslighting her. She went fucking insane. And we found out through the grapevine from friends that we knew that she was like in an mental institute because she was going so crazy by this guy. And the first thing I looked to my friend and I was like, that could have been you. But you got

out of that. You know why you got out of that? Because you had boundaries and he didn't like. that. You said no and he didn't like that. You had self-worth and he didn't like that. So we have to stop looking at the highlight real of, but they're so happy. And it's like, yeah, I thought that about my ex-2. That was six exes ago. And I'm still with the same fucking person that I'm with now. Zebras don't change their stripes. They just fucking sometimes morph into a different direction. Yeah. And remember, I mean, we all know this. Social media is not real. I tend, I mean, my personal belief is the more you have to brag about your relationship on social media, Yeah, probably not the best.

Totally. Like, that's when you go to like, who you're trying to impress, who are you? Yes, exactly. Also, I think when it comes to anger, right? I think we're so quick to say, don't do it, right? Oh, well, you're angry. No, and it's like, how about, like, can we find a way to process this so it doesn't consume you?

Right? Like, I don't know about you, but, like, I've been angry. I've been angry a lot. And you know what I'll do? I'll punch something. Yeah. I'll take a pillow and I'll beat the fucking shit out of it. Or I'll punch the air.

I get trolls, right? Like, we have, there's always something. anger is not a bad thing. Anger is a primary emotion. When it becomes an issue is because no one ever taught us how to process it. I grew up in a family that anger was bad. Not a good emotion. Not good to be angry. You always have to give people the benefit of the doubt. So I remember the first time I got really angry was about my super abusive ex. And I went apeshit. Like I broke a painting over my knee. I tore stuff up. And I just had never experienced that before. Anger is such a good part of a breakup. It's good to be angry. Like, if you get angry, I think that means you are moving

forward because it means that you can see the person or you can see the relationship for not being, for not being perfect. Like, that's your ex coming off the pedestal. And I'm a huge fan of fuck you letters. Yeah. Write the fuck you letter. Read it to your friend. Tear it up, burn it. My AA sponsor would tell me to write the person's name on a piece of duct tape and stick it to the bottom of my shoe and just walk on them all day. Like doing that kind of stuff. It's not, doesn't make you a bad person. It's getting something out that you don't want, you don't want that in you permanently. It's individualized. Exactly. I did the rage rooms. I went and I remember I read the letter and I was like, fuck you. And I remember just hitting a keyboard over and over. And I was like,

I think I got it. They're great, right? Like just taking bottles and throwing it. It's like, your body has to safely release this emotion and this anger. It festeres. And that's what I think when we say like when you hold it in, when you hate somebody and you have that, it's not hurting anybody but you. It doesn't, the other person doesn't give a shit. Because someone asked how to move on without closure. And I think we're kind of like teeing it up right here is like you give yourself closure. The person that hurt you isn't going to be the person that heals you, right? Like the person that broke your heart isn't going to now come and go, you know what? You're right. You were so good to me and I did because for them my mom always used to say, you keep going on the what ifs,

but if that was what it was, then it would have been what is. And she keeps you keep harping on, but why couldn't he have apologized? She goes, but then you wouldn't have been in the issues you had to begin with if this person apologized for what made you hurt. Totally. And I was like, oh. Oh. So I am curious. What do you? you normally advise, right? Fuck you letters. You know, is there anything else when it comes specifically to closure that you think is beneficial for us creating our own goodbye? I interviewed Guy Winch on my podcast and I loved what he said, make it up. Okay. Make up the reason. If you need it, if you that badly need a reason why the breakup happened, make it up. That's one way to do it.

Also, even if you knew exactly why the breakup happened, you would still be sad. I think if we see closure as a distraction from sadness, which I believe that's what it is. Agreed. You are distracting yourself from feeling sad. And it's this thing that you chase and you think once I figure that out, the sadness will go away. It won't. You're just kicking the can down the road and you're going to have to deal with the sadness in four months from now when you realize I'm not getting the closure.

Or even if I did, even if you track down your ex and say, I need to sit with you and I need to ask you 15 different questions, you'll still feel the same way. 100% the questions you'll have 30 more exactly because you're intellectualizing you're not actually allowing saying I'm hurt this really feels sad I feel you know whatever it could be I feel used I feel taken advantage of and that's okay right like we're allowed because I hear this all the time of like this breakup blindsided me and it's like of course have I have I been shocked by a breakup before sure but I wouldn't say blindsided would ever be a word for me personally because it's like what were you paying attention were you looking yeah right were you actually looking at this because it's like it's so blindsided, it's like, well, wait a minute, go on. It's like, so he was, they were future

planning and doing all this. How long did you know this person for? You didn't think that was the red flag, but this is, I'm so shocked that they met someone else. And it's like, you weren't reading between the lines. Yeah. Or you were avoiding, like we talked about earlier, you were avoiding saying certain things or asking for certain things and it turns out you're not a match. So I think, the closure thing, yes, it's something that you're going to chase. And we also have to remember sometimes if you could sit face to face with your ex and ask them the question, they might not know the answer. More often than not, they probably won't know the answer. They don't know the answer. Because that would require processing and them getting introspective. And I'll never forget this

one guy had called me. And we had gone on a few dates. We hooked up. And we had been hooking up. It's not like it was the first time. And he was doing the future faking, you know, some of the planning. And I remember just kept being like, hey, why don't we just like take it day by day? So when he called me, I wasn't surprised. I remember just getting frustrated. But I wasn't mad at him. Like he wasn't to match. And the sex was mediocre at best. But he was one of the first people that called me with like an actual understanding of like, hey, he was like, I, my wife died a few years ago. And like, I knew I had known that. He was young. So it's like that was really, he had a newborn. It was like, it's a lot, you know? And he was honest. He was like, I really liked you. And when I started to make

all these future plans, I realized she was being replaced. And it was like, this poor guy had a very human reaction. And what did I say to him? Thank you for letting me know. I truly wish you all the best. I wasn't mad. I wasn't angry. I wasn't pissed. I had so much respect that this person just fucking told me. Because if I had kept going, but why did you say that? It's like, because in the moment he genuinely thought that. He really believed the two nights before when I had seen him that he was excited about all this. Then he went home. Then he processed. Then reality hit. Then he saw his daughter. He saw photos. And he realized he couldn't do it. There's nothing wrong with it not working out. And I feel like it's just something I wanted to highlight is like you can handle things with grace.

It doesn't have to mean that they're bad so I could be good. It could mean they're going through some shit. This ain't a match. And I think the additional pain people put themselves through after a breakup by thinking that everything they went through was a lie. Yeah. The relationship was a lie. What they said was a lie. And because I think sometimes that's easier to think than, oh, someone could love me and not want to, you know, and then change their mind.

But the thing is your relationship was real. If it felt real, it was real, you know? And then you can, I don't know, then you can deal with, yes, people change their mind and that sucks. But don't invalidate your entire experience. because you're afraid of the hurt of when someone changes their mind. If you're going through that and the narrative is consistently about how terrible you are and how awful you are and how you're the problem, it's like, then what I have to say

is you're not saying this clearly. And that's okay. That's the good news. But you're not seeing it clearly because when the dust settles, right? When the water's not as murky, you'll be able to understand and go, oh, they're emotionally unavailable. That's why this always felt like there was something wrong with me. And again, it's not.

I've had people right in going, thank you for that. So what you're saying is, I'm not the problem. I didn't do anything. And I was like, I didn't say that. Yeah. What I said was you didn't do anything for this person to walk away from you because of your worth. But what I am saying is that you allowed it. And remembering that you're not going to see it clearly right after the breakup.

That's why I tell people, don't try to process it right away. Just survive. Just survive. Be around your friends. Like, do whatever you can to distract yourself. The dust will settle. Don't try to rush it because if you try to process it early, you're going to see it all as your fault. Or all the other person's fault, which neither are true.

Right. So this was actually somebody. Let's get into the rapid fire. Okay. Talk about timing. So the first one I'm going to ask you is staying friends with an ex stopping me from finding someone new. Yes. Being friends with your ex, my hope is that everyone has great friendships outside of their relationship where after the relationship ends, you don't need a friend who could potentially break your heart again.

I don't need a friend that. No. Right? Like, I don't need that, especially like here. When my ex and I broke up and we did the friends thing, like I helped him adopt a dog from a guy that I was dating and the guy needed to get it up. And it's like, we were friends like that. We're like, if I ever needed anything, I could call him. The minute I got with the big X that I referred to, even he came to me and was like, this doesn't make me feel comfortable.

You guys live together. I don't see why you're hanging out alone. And I totally respected him. He wasn't, there wasn't a you're not allowed to. He was expressing and saying, I don't feel comfortable. And I said, you're right. I, the only time I think, right, if you have kids, right, please. That's a very different thing. Co-parent. The dog thing, get over it. Okay. If you have it, if you're sharing a dog, like, move the fuck on. Decide who's getting the dog. Go get your own dog. Like, you can do this. And that's coming from two dog owners. But I think at the end of the day, you. You could be cordial, right? We don't – I have tons of, like, guys I dated or whatever on Instagram. It's like, I don't talk to them. I will like a photo or I'll support them. But it's totally okay to say you don't need to be friends with the next. And if you need a test, pretend you're getting an invite to their wedding and how does that make you feel?

Love that. Exactly. Yeah. The only time I think friendship makes sense is when both people literally say, I don't have feelings. Like, I've seen it. It's very few and far between. Yeah. Because there's usually one person that ends up getting feelings.

And then you find out they're dating somebody and then you get jealous. and you're like, oh, I'm a human. Totally. Yeah. That's the thing. You're a human. And if you have feelings for someone, I think it's very hard to walk that back. Okay.

Next question. Do I need to forgive them to move on? I don't think so. I think sometimes forgiveness comes much later on. I mean, I didn't forgive my toxic X until like four years after it ended. And I had moved on. I think the biggest part is you need to forgive yourself to move on. 100%.

As I say, forgiveness, yes. Yes. You need to accept it. That's to me is. It's like, but no, I don't think, yeah. Like, I don't forget. My ex never apologized. So what am I forgiving him for?

But I forgive myself for allowing it. Exactly. I think that's the biggest part. And accepting does not mean approving. 100%. Okay. Can you work on codependency while in a relationship? This is a hard one.

I'd say yes and no. I think you have to have a baseline on your own before you can work on it within a relationship. But I think if you can have a baseline beforehand, being in a relationship and working on it is great practice. Okay. How can you get over the shame of what you lacked in the relationship? hip. Back to the shame. Back to the shame. Yeah. Of knowing that you don't lack anything. What you guys had wasn't a match, but you didn't lack anything. Everything that you have is going to be perfect for the right person. You were learning. You were learning, exactly. And it's, you were learning with not the

right person anyway. So it's, it's practical. It was a trial run. But I remember the guy that I dated right before Ryan, like, right before he was that guy. He had erectile dysfunction. He, like, that's why I fucked Ryan on the first date. Truth be told. I was like, God, it's been so long. I need to get late. I was like, it's been months. He had all of these things. Like, and every time I'd bring up conversation of like, I want to check in, how are you feeling? It would always be like, it's like an eye roll. And it's like, I could have done the I'm too much and what's wrong with me. And it's like, no, because then I met a man right after and none of those were issues. And he has more like, we've never found out of that problem in the bedroom. I'll tell you that.

He's come tenfold. And he's communicative. And he's open and he loves my check-ins. And even though he's more avoidant. Like, I think really at the end of the day, we have to look at this as there's nothing wrong with you. It's just not the right person. Yes. It releases so much fucking pressure and stress. Yeah. I love the quote of, I'm going to butcher it now. I'm like blanking on it. But you're like you just, you're not too much of a package. You just arrived at the wrong address. Exactly. Like I just love that because it's, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just not the right person. And you're not going to realize that right after a breakup. So if you're just going through a breakup and you're hearing this, it's like, come on. I'm not, I'm not feeling

that way. Yeah, that's normal. Totally normal. It's like, we're a spectrum. of emotions and a human, but again, no one told us that that was okay. So we were shamed for a long time. But I think both of us are saying here, like, take up the space, cry, feel. Time doesn't heal all wounds. It's what you do with the time. Right. So if you're going through a breakup or you're hurting or you're in pain right now or the situation ship that you wanted didn't work out, allow yourself to feel like shit and stop forcing yourself to suddenly feel better. That's toxic positivity and that's not actually going to get you where you want to go. Totally. Instead, it's okay. I'm allowed to be sad. I'm a human. I'm going to validate my

own emotions. Otherwise, I then ended up gaslighting myself and now we defeated the purpose. Exactly. Find new happiness, right? Like go for me, it was like starting new workout routines or going to new, you know, I'm big into fitness. So it was like starting a new workout class or cooking class or hiking club. I interjected myself into newness. Not because I was trying to erase what happened, but because I was trying to get excited about what was to come. Because sure, I can harp and I can cry and there's no one, there's no one, there's no one. And it's like, but when you're standing at a door banging and you're trying to get it back open, you don't realize the doors and the windows around you that are opening up and you're trying so hard to get into something that's a dead fucking road.

It's like it's okay to allow that and just say, what's for me? I won't pass me. This isn't the right person. Even if it fucking hurts, you're allowed. And remembering that getting over a breakup is not unloving your ex or forgetting your ex. It's learning how to love your life without your ex in it. Love that. Oh, Kendra.

Thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom. Where can people find you? How can they get in touch with you? Listen to the podcast, all that stuff. Yeah. So my Instagram is at your breakup bestie. And my podcast is heal your heartbreak. anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Yay. Guys, if you need anything, as always, connect with Kendra, listen to the podcast. I'll be on your podcast, do, which will be really fun. So you guys will have more of both of us. And if you guys need anything, as always, everything is the link in show notes. Don't forget, rate, review the show. If you need anything, as always, it's there.

And guys, thank you so much. And Kendra, thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me.