The Sabrina Zohar Show - 136: What To Do When You're Anxious In Dating and How To Regulate Your Nervous System With Jessica Maguire

Episode Date: April 25, 2025

Why do you keep spiraling after a date that seemed perfect? Why does your chest tighten when they don’t text back? It’s not just anxiety—it’s your nervous system sounding the alarm. In this eye-opening episode, Sabrina sits down with nervous system educator Jessica Maguire to explore the hidden physiological patterns driving anxious thoughts, emotional dysregulation, and the urge to chase emotionally unavailable partners. Whether you're constantly scanning for red flags or feel overwhelmed by connection, this conversation breaks down the difference between true intuition and trauma-informed reactions. Jessica shares actionable tools to reconnect with your body, regulate your responses in dating, and stop the cycle of self-abandonment. If you’re tired of your emotions hijacking your love life, this episode will help you get back into the driver's seat—grounded, clear, and calm. MERCH IS NOW AVAILABLE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home. From binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Well, hello, Jessica. Welcome. Hi, Sabrina. Thanks so much for having me. I am so excited. Again, you came all the way from Australia just to see me. I am just honored. Welcome. I'm super stoked to have you. And I think we have had a few conversations on the podcast about the nervous system. But I'm so excited to have a different thought process, a different perspective and different tools, different experiences.

But for anyone who doesn't know you, could you please share a little bit more about you, your work, what you do, and just everything about you? Yeah, sure. So I worked in private practice as a physiotherapist for a decade and was really at that point of like, hmm, people are coming in with all these symptoms, but I know there's more going on under the surface. And so I decided to close up my own clinic and take a year to really dive into all the neuroscience, the nervous system, the vagus nerve, and then came back to Australia after traveling around and was working with my patients in a new way, which evolved to doing workshops. And then I decided that education was really where I wanted to be and teaching people to do so much of this work themselves. So, you know, people might still enjoy working one-to-one with people, but at the same time, they can also do a lot

of this work themselves. So, yeah, I have helped now, I think it's over 20,000 students, which is really exciting. That's amazing. Yeah. And I'm curious, because I think there's so many misconceptions. Like, Today, for anyone who's listening, if you want to know what the episode's about, I'll just tell you, we're going to talk about, like, how to stop falling for emotionally unavailable people and to understand regulating your nervous system, right? Obviously, we're not going to, we can't cure cancer in one conversation. And that's why there is the nervous system course for you guys, if you need more. But I wanted to even just start, what misconceptions have you seen as you've been teaching especially about repairing the nervous system or understanding it, befriending it, like, what do you see? I think a lot of those disconnects that we see that people may not really get about the nervous system. Yeah, I love this question. What a great place to start. I think the biggest thing is that people think of nervous system regulation, that you're almost like going to flatline yourself to be calm all the time. And regulation really is about being able to tune in to listen through body awareness, also your thoughts, but then to make a decision or express that, whether that's through a conversation, whether that's through moving your body. So it's going in, but there's also a going out. as well. And to know that emotions like anger are really helpful. So we're not looking to be at this flat line with the nervous system. And then probably the other thing is people thinking the vagus nerve is something that we can just hack and then we're never going to have stress again. But, you know, the vagus nerve is really this series of systems that is really the communicator

of what's happening between the brain and body. But it's not that we can hack this. nerve and never feel stressed again. So there's a few interesting things that we see coming out now. But I think the main thing is around that we're going to be calm all the time and never have emotions. That's, I think, the biggest misconception I see as well is like, oh, if I regulate, then I'm just going to be fine. And it's like, no, no, no, regulating just brings me back to having a choice. And then I can understand what my choices might be because I'm in this present moment. But when I regulate, I still have the anxiety or I still have the fears or I still have them, but I might not be coming from the child that is experiencing them. I might be coming more from the

adult. And I think, because I see it like all the time. And I'm curious to see your thoughts on this. When you see those videos of like, just pull on your ear here. Right. And it's like, this is how you reset your nervous system or like pinch right here on your hand. That's how you reset it. And I'm curious, like, what is, what are those modalities? Like, how do they actually help? And are we giving them a little bit too much importance? Because when I see those videos and I'll do it, I'm like, I don't know. I still feel the same. It's so funny, isn't it? Because I did study acupuncture as well and treated patients with acupuncture, so there are those points that work. But it wasn't ever about just hit a point, put a needle in.

When you look at it, it's actually about this flow of what was called chi. But really, we can almost look at this as the same, you know, whether we want to call it energy, whether we want to call it how we have mobilization or immobilization. We do have this flow and movement through our brain body system. And so what we're looking at is what are these, repetitive ways that we're getting places light up in the brain or we're getting a loss of vagal tone and how is that moving through the whole body. But a lot of that comes to how we can connect to that experience. And the way that we might put a judgment on a way that we feel or

something that's happening that can make things worse. But the point, I think if we were to say, well, if we want to change our nervous system and create like neuroplasticity, we need to experience something different. And that's where these points might just fall a bit short because we can't tell our nervous system, oh, you've got to feel safe now. We have to show it that it is. And then it will change how it responds in the future. So it's really like that whole brain body system we're looking at. Oh, God, I used to try to think like, you're safe. And I was like, no, you're not. You know the dog meme of the house? Like, it's like, this is fine. And you're just the flames. And I'm insensitive with like the world on fire. But nonetheless, I feel like that dog more often because I want to be in the, it's like, that's also I hate that fucking saying if he wanted to, he would. Like, it's not about want. I want to be calm all the time. I want to handle things differently. I want to respond and not react. But I also understand that like as we'll get to, there are traumas. There are experiences. The body, to me, I believe it holds the score. Like I know that there are different aspects and ailments that can come up. And I'm curious, like, what was your experience working with your own nervous?

Like, did you have high anxiety or more avoidance? Like, where did you fall in the spectrum? Even just in life and how you handled things? And I know you were married, but like when you were dating, when you were in the courtship, when you had a partner, because I think a good portion of the audience is dating, but we do have people in relationships. We have people that are single. And I really want them to get something from this without feeling like, oh, I'm broken. There's something wrong with me. It's like, what was your, I'm curious for your experiences. Well, it was interesting. In 2017, I lost my brother. And it was a really difficult. time, it felt like a shock and I was like, I don't know where home is anymore. You know, he's like, he was always with me. We were so close. And then to lose that, it's like, well, how did this happen? And that sense of trust was gone for me. So when I got back into dating, it was probably, it took me a year to look at dating

after that. I met my husband and he is a very steady, grounded person. So when I first met him, there was, I could immediately know. notice this like settling that just would come with being around him. So that was great. But I had so much of a change in my nervous system that I would feel myself being like, it was almost like the flight energy. Like I was like, I need to get away. So that was a new pattern that hadn't been there before. And it took me a while. Like I remember I, because I went into therapy after losing my brother and I was explaining things about the situation, you know, that I was in with my husband,

and not a husband at the time. And she said, you can't just run away. Like, you know, this isn't something that's wrong. But it was definitely linked to my own anxiety or own hypervigilance. And what the story was was if I opened my heart back up, the other shoe's going to drop. You know, I'll just get this. The world did this to me before. So I'm going to get shocked again.

But the beauty is that the networks for regulation, are the same as the networks for attachment. So as we work on regulation, attachment can shift, you know, and that's really what happened. So he, for me, was what I would say, that whole experience allowed me to change so much from an attachment point of view, but also the regulation point of view as well.

And, you know, even now, he's so grounding for me when I do find that I'm like, well, there's so much to do. and now becoming a mother, it's like, whoa, work and that. And, you know, it's never perfect with anybody. But I am really grateful for the way that we can work together. And there's a lot of stories that people say about, oh, you can't, you know, have become a mother and still keep working, and it's going to get really, really hard. And it does have its challenges.

But with the right partner, it can definitely work so well. And now I get to see him with my daughter and give her that same grounding energy. And it's one of the most beautiful thing. No, I love that. And thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry about your brother. And I grief, no matter what form it is, whether it be a human, a pet, or just losing something, even a breakup, right? Like, when you're grieving and you're accepting and you're moving past it, like, no one's alone. Right. And like, I think we all understand that our nervous system as well, like doesn't really even have the time. No one had the fuck. Like, I remember when Klem passed away. I talk about, like, I never understood what shutting down looked like. I truly didn't. I thought I knew, right? When I would just go silent, I was a shell of a human. I was numb. I just couldn't make eye contact. I would just stare at the floor. I remember just like, I didn't even realize I was crying, and I would just stand there and would just be flowing down and be like, I'm sorry, what? I was here.

And it's interesting to see how I think the beautiful part about it is that we are flexible. We can experience literally feeling like your heart is broken. Like I felt like someone had just and ripped it out. And then you met your partner, I met mine. And all of a sudden you started to realize like, oh, so this is what safety feels like. This is what it feels like to really be loved unapologetically and to not feel like the other shoe is going to drop and to really be able to get. give of yourself. But I'll be honest, I'm curious your journey it for me, learning to regulate,

learning what that looked like and learning to receive it. Right. I was good at saying, oh, I don't want this. Oh, no, no, this doesn't work for me. Right. Look, got to go. But then to receive it, I'll never forget laying on his chest one night, maybe two months after we started to date. And we've been together now for over two years. So, like, we're moving through that. But I was very early on. And I remember feeling, like starting to understand that emotions were the cognitive, but I needed to feel my feelings. I needed to understand how they were in my body. And I remember just starting to notice like, oh, I think I have swimming my chest, right? For years, I never understood that. And in that moment, I remember just opening my eyes being like, what? Trailing it, trailing it. And I was like, oh, this is the first time I felt safety. This is the first time I've been in a man's arms where I was like, oh, my God, this person cares about me. Like, this person's not trying to hurt me or leave me. And I reciprocate that was fucking terrifying for me. For anybody that is listening, I think we're so used to you can run. Your body alerts you when it's not healthy. But then when it is, how can we actually start to tune in to like what is happening with us and understand the

different sensations? This is such a juicy topic. I love it. So I think a lot of this comes down to how our brain, particularly the survival brain, learns and how it then will predict the future. And in relationships, how much we are running off predictions of the past. And in those early stages, it can feel like so much work because we can get triggered so quickly and easily. And every time we go deeper and deeper into that place of intimacy, it's like we need to show more of ourselves or we need to let more of somebody else in our life. You know, like when you first move in, when you then decide, oh, actually, maybe I do want to be married or, oh, I want to become a parent with this person.

Like it's that deeper layer. And so I think it's completely normal to say, I'm going to have some. responses to this. But if we look at that example that you so beautifully gave, and I can really relate to that, it's almost like where you go in your body, I've just gone deeper, and then there can almost be like a, hang on a minute, hang on. And so when we go into bodily signals and bodily memories, that paying attention is what we call interception. So it's our eighth sensory system. Oh, go on. Well, interception is. So fascinating. I think it's one of the most exciting topics. You know, we've got our five out-of-facing

senses. We've got proprioception or the position of our body in space. We've got our seventh sense, which is the vestibular system or how we move our head and our balance. But interception is, you know, the information coming from our body up to our brain, and some of it we're not aware of. Like, you know, we're not going to feel every time we're digesting food, which is great because it's completely overwhelm us. But those bodily signals that we do start to notice that can be physiological, like I'm thirsty, self-regulation, get a drink. So we're looking at this really from a physiological level, but the sensations in our bodies are also the foundation for our emotions. And so if you can notice, oh, my heart's beating fast, my shoulders are tight, my hands are clammy, and you can

tune into, okay, I recognize what this is. So what is it telling me? And then if you can almost sift between it and be like, is this actually from now? Like, is this the legitimate response from now or is this from the past? But what I think tends to happen is we stay stuck in the cognitive story of it without actually being able to get down into going, hang on what's here. And usually, like it's something from the past, right? And the amount of times I traced this back in my body and would go, oh, that's what you're believing. And then you're like, okay, I can now see the whole picture. But until we have this level of body awareness, you know, there's also, we want to look at

our thoughts, but it's really what's happening when we are triggered that's more important from the body because we're connecting to the place where the body is speaking to the lower centers in the brain, the survival brain. So if we can work in that place, then move into a bit more regulation. We'll see reality as it actually is rather than respond to past relationships. Which I think happens so often, especially in the dating landscape. And like, I understand. When I was dating, it's been a couple of years, right?

It's been a few years. But like, I still remember it. You know, it's not that long ago. I remember not understanding the body sensations. Like, you're with somebody and I'll never forget. Oh, God, I've said this story before. I'll say it again. I had had this first date with this guy.

He was like, I didn't think he was real when we matched because I was like, there is no way this six five till I'll drink of water. His six pack, I could have licked it off with my tongue. Like, I was like, and he was super successful and just a smile. I was like, there's no way he's real. And so when I showed up to the restaurant, I'm sweating. I am heart is palpitating. I'm sitting there and I'm like, I couldn't even function because I was like, my eyes were darting. Now I understand.

I was like wildly dysregulated in that moment. But I remember thinking, oh my God, this is chemistry. we have a spark. Holy shit, we're going to get married, right? Like the whole works. And we were supposed to go out again, and he left and spare anybody that's listened to the story a thousand time. Love you, but please just bear with me. And he left town.

And then he was like, you know, we should get together again. We were supposed to get to go. And he was one of those like in New York when I lived there. So many people love to be like, oh, I'm here all the time. And it's like, they're not. They come like once. And that was kind of it. And then years later, I met my appointment doing something.

And I'm telling this girl about this guy. And she said she used to live in San Francisco. And I was like, oh, my God. So did he. And I'm telling her of like, oh my God, it was kind of like, this was years later. So I was like, he's not the one that got away, but I was like, I always believed that he was. And I was like, no, we had this connection and all that. And I remember her just stopping and being like, huh, what was his name?

And I said it. And she just like, just froze. And I was like, are you okay? And she was like, that was my ex. And he was a raging narcissist. And he broke me into a thousand pieces. And I was like, oh, what? And I remember even calling my sister because she knew her.

And she was like, what are you the odds? And I was like, I have no idea that I. that I came to San Diego some random appointment and this so happens to be this guy from seven years prior. And the reason I share is because at the time, I completely misunderstood what my body was trying to tell me, right? Because in theory, had this person not been so goddamn attractive, if he was just a troll that I saw on the street or someone that, like, made me uncomfortable, my body would have been telling me, girl, you need to run. And I think when we're dating, especially with like the emotionally unavailable and like we get so caught up into it. And I'm so curious to hear like, what can we do, right? When those types of things happen, like how do you or how can you process this or how can

you start to get curious about it? What are we looking for? What can we offer when you're just like, I don't actually know because sometimes you think it's excitement and you're like, oh, that person's going to ruin my life. And I want to be able to help folks understand how can we identify that unavailability and also within ourselves and our body, the whole works. Take it from here. There's so many ways we could go into this.

But one of the most useful resources that I've used over the years, when it came from my teacher, Tara Brach, who's US-based, she uses the acronym Rain to explain it. And it's just, it's so powerful because it's about coming into your body. Now, you can do this more afterwards. So I find this is like, rather than it in the heat of the moment, like say you're connecting with this guy and you're like, oh my God, my heart's pounding.

There's parts of it you can do where you recognize and allow and go, okay, my heart's pounding. I'm feeling really anxious or mobilized. But basically, you can later on, when you're a little bit more resourced, tune into your body whether you want to do some movement first, you know, discharge some of that activation. And then the process is tuning into where the sensations are. Now, this in itself can be hard for people,

especially if like what you were saying in that place where you were feeling numb and empty and you might not have a good thing. connection to your body. It's helpful to even place a hand where the sensations are. And in the heat of the moment, that for a lot of people can be like, oh, okay, there's a lot of activity here. I can feel this and I'm okay. But the process is allow is the next step. And for most, well, for a lot of people, there is already this, I don't want this here. I shouldn't feel like this, especially if we're talking about regulation and then you're like hating on yourself for not being regulated enough. So it's recognizing what's in the body and allowing.

And through the art, you can actually use like the mental whisper. Now, when we talked about interreception before, what the research has shown is that people who can be more specific and granular with what's in their body are going to be better at regulating their emotions. So if you imagine that you said to me, I want to paint this wall blue. And then I'm your interior designer. I'd be like, well, what color blue? Right. There could be 22 shades. It's the same with emotions and sensations.

So we might just say, I feel bad. I feel stressed. But when we sit with it and we can come through it, that's what allows us to get the specificity, which is what can allow us then to proactively manage our emotions better. But the second part is really tuning in to the sensations and using questions that would be like, okay, if you could take this microphone and pass it to the sensation,

what does it actually want to say? And so that expression part again is there. And then the N is really about nurture. Now, this is different for everybody. So for some people, it might be that they imagine that when they've got their hand on their sensations, a person, so I used to use my grandmother all the time, had her a hand over mine and was attuning to what was happening with me. But it could be for anybody, whatever it was that felt that sense of somebody was with them.

And through that practice, we can feel ourselves and go, okay, let's slow down. And we can keep using the questions into the body. Like, what am I believing? We can then use the second question. Well, is that actually true? But what is it that you need? And then sometimes what I've noticed and learned through the years is that the sensations don't go away.

And there's a message that's like, you need to pay attention. But what can happen, the more that we do this work on ourselves, and think that we need to regulate all the time, is that we might not actually listen when there is a warning. And I've made that mistake before and ended up being taken advantage of. And I think that I knew this was not right, but thought that I was being anxious. So I don't think we can ever get this perfect.

You know, it's one of the hardest things to listen to bodily signals and read them. But what is interesting is that following traumatic stress, the volume on sensations gets turned down. So it's like there's a part in the brain where the vagus nerve sends signals up called the insular. And it actually goes offline a bit for some people. But then on the other hand, for people who are really anxious, it's like the volume can be turned up too loud.

So we want to just look at, well, what's my pattern? And I reckon it can be different around different people as well. So really interesting stuff. But the overlap would be avoidance, probably find it harder. to tune into their body, and those who are more anxiously attached would be more overwhelmed by sensations. It's interesting because, especially with the emotional availability comments, right? We think so often, I hear it all the time, it's like, I'm emotionally available.

I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, go on. And I used to think that. Oh, no, I want a relationship and I want all these things. I was more avoidant than probably other people, because even though I was anxious, it was outward. Everything was no, but you tell me it's going to be okay. You tell me I'm fine. You tell me I'm assured.

You tell me I'm good, right? Yes. But I didn't know how to do that. for myself. And to your point about listening, right? Like, even this morning, by the time this comes out, there will be another issue, I'm sure that I'll have to share with you guys. Even this morning, like I woke up, talk about the wrong side of the bed. I woke up and an email I had gotten yesterday. It was just spiraling me. It was stewing. And it was the epitome of I was filling in the blanks, right? I had an email. I hadn't spoken to the people that had sent the

email. We had the call with them. And it was like a different team members. So it wasn't a direct like, oh, God. And I created every narrative. And what I noticed was, When I woke up, I started to cry. I was feeling I called my mom to co-regulate. That didn't really work. I literally came home and I just screamed. I had to get it out. And then I cried.

And I remember she was on with me and she was like, it's okay. Like, I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. And that's news for me. That's a new sensation with my mom because we didn't have that relationship for years. And at first, you know, I kept thinking, no, no, no, I just need to make more money. Right. Like that was the quick thing.

Like, no, no, just get that. Until I started to say, no, you need to listen. What are you trying to be told? And it was a few things like, hey, you're burning yourself. out. Like, this isn't sustainable. You cannot keep going like this. And the other one that I did not want to admit, but it was so real, was my little telling me like, you're working me too hard. You want me to perform for you with like a monkey at a circus and you're whipping me. And then the minute it didn't go our way, now you hate me. And I had to tune in to listen because then I was able to be like,

okay, what does she need? What can I do for myself? What control do I have in this moment? And I knew, okay, I can't control them. I can't control the outcome of the situation, but I can't control how I speak to them, how I show up, and allow them. And I even said, you know what, I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to let them talk. And it ended up being totally fine. And then after I sat and, you know, I remember Ryan kind of looked at me and I just, I was like, you don't need to say it. You don't need to say it. But I think the catastrophizing, like, it's very normal. It's very human. And especially like, let's even talk in the dating realm, right? The, we fill in the blanks. I had a great date last night. Wait, I didn't hear from this person. But like I didn't hear. And then

all of a sudden we started to incorporate like, what did I do wrong? What did they not think I'm pretty enough? Did they not, nah, nah, and we. And we. And we, start to go off on this trail. And I'm curious because when we talk about repairing the nervous system, right, when we really think about for anybody that's struggling with those components, what can they do? Obviously, like, I've been doing this for so long. I can sit within seconds and be like, oh, this is what's going on. I know what's happening. But if you're not even aware, I've had people that say, I don't know where I'm feeling. I don't know where it is in my body. What are little things that they can even do in those moments to be able to come back to now or to even remember that they do have agency and choice? And it doesn't have to mean that there's

something wrong with you, maybe that person just wasn't picking up what you're putting down. Or maybe they'll call you later, right? Exactly. It could be so many different things. I love that you shared that so openly and honestly. It's really refreshing to hear people be able to say that was exactly what it's like because I relate on lots of levels with this. But I think what you said, there's some really good parts to it, like the first part around

waking up and being like, I've just got to take action. I've just got to do something. I've got to do something. Now this is like that mobilizing energy of our nervous system. People probably are familiar with fight or flight, but I like looking at this more as am I mobilized rather than am I stressed. Because like stress isn't always wrong or bad. Like I can be stressed before an event and it's great for me.

But what we're looking at is right, okay, so here's this mobilization. And what tends to happen is that the story will come from that state. Like we think, here's the story and we're in it. our whole sense of self gets hijacked by that story and then our mind will try and fill in the blanks of what's going on. So we hear those exactly what you said. Like someone thinks I'm working them too hard. Someone isn't going to call me back. They don't like me. Whatever that might be. So to recognize that mobilization has those stories like something's wrong, I need to fix it, I need to do the urgency, I've got to take action. And what happens is, and I've learned this so many times,

hard way. It's like you start going here and you're like, I'm not even taking action in the direction of what's important. And then you got to circle back and come all the way back. So, you know, if you actually spent the time in the first place, just going what is really here, the interesting part is mobilization often sits over the top of something else, which can be feeling of inadequacy. And then if we look at money, money and the nervous system are like this. So it's like, I'm not making enough money. If I just make more money, then I'll be safe. These aren't conscious things that we decide to do.

Like, this is happening under, you know, the surface of the water. But if we can also see immobilization, which I think is just, it's there just as much. But it's probably those times when we crash and we're on the couch and we're like, I can't get up. I'm so devastated. But in dating, I couldn't remember, you know, it didn't work out. And then you're like, oh my God, I'm good. and be like down the spiral, which can be just such a hard place to get out of.

And a lot of people who, as students of ours, will say it's like a few days they can get stuck there. So the first thing is being able to recognize this in an embodied way and seeing the bodily signals, they can, like being able to see the emotions, the actions that we're taking and then the story, like and saying, okay. And once we can see this as a nervous system state, rather than, our sense of self and who we are, that in itself is regulating. So interception, that those bodily signals, that is a huge part of how we see ourselves because there is no fixed sense of self.

It's like this dynamic process of the body and the brain communicating with each other that we go, that's who I am. So in a different state, I am this person, I'm a terrible boss, I'm a terrible partner or we go down to this state and I'm going to be alone and no one will ever want to be with me. So that in itself can help. But the mobilising energy, now you said you just had to scream, but for some people that can be like the movement. I just need to move. I need to get this out. And this is where like, you know, we talk so much about meditation for regulation. And I'm like, well, it can be good. But also it's not where we'd want to start with everybody. Not where. Particularly those people who have a trauma history where they don't feel

safe connect into their body yet, don't start with meditation if it's not the right fit. So it can be movement, but lots of things that will allow you to feel those bodily sensations in a way that brings stability and support. So if you were to tune into this feeling of like it could be movement and then tuning into like feet on the ground or connecting to your chair. And this one in the moment for dating is so goal because you can be feeling yourself, leaning forward and just go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, connect back to the back of my body. Feel this. And like, if I sit and push the back of my body into the chair, it's like immediately,

oh, there I am, there's my body, this is back to me. But I think noticing that urgency and energy in the front and leaning into merge, which more ties in with fawn is so like going, oh, hang on, I just need to come back inside of me. That is really helpful. But the challenge for people who tend to fall into that anxious and mobilized pattern is being able to go, I can find this in myself, this safety in myself. I don't need to purely rely on what that person's doing out there to have my sense of safety. So that's a learning. And then for people who feel more into the flatness and are typically probably more isolating, it actually might be reaching out is the thing to do. Like if you feel alone, helpless. And reaching out to other people beyond just who you're dating,

right, like having a bigger network so that you feel, oh, I've got this sense of being supported and belonging. They're huge things. Oh, community is, that's why we're not meant to be alone. We're not meant to. One of my favorite modalities, I think, whenever I'm feeling like I have to move, like, move that energy. When I'm down, sometimes I'm like, what do I need? I'm like, not my phone, right? I don't need that. That's actually not. Sometimes I'm like, I need to hug the dog or be with my partner or put a sweater on and feel supported. But other times, sometimes I'll get a troll that it'll tack you on the internet. And like, I've had my friends just like punch the air. Like fight it. Let your body know that like I just needed to get it out. And I'm like,

oh, God, that feels so good. Or my therapist years ago did the like, you know, tense, right? Like, tense up your hand. Release it. And it just helped. It just personally helped me. And sometimes like when I'm going through a regulation or I need to do something for myself, sometimes I'll use a multiple of them of like, well, this didn't work. Right. And I need to, you know, you feel like a a gerbil on a hamster on a wheel. Yes. And I think it's so important to figure out what works. And then I think so many people want tools.

They want to have this massive arsenal. And you actually only need a few. What are your favorites? I'm curious. I love what you said about the anger. So if I recognize it's fire energy, in the past, I used to turn it into an internal fight of like, I shouldn't be feeling like this. I'm such a bad person.

And, you know, I'd been doing lots of spiritual practice. So I was like, oh, you know, I'm supposed to be, have done this spiritual work and here I'm getting all angry at people. So now it's like that's that's totally different. I just don't have this should or shouldn't anymore. But the biggest one is in line with what you're saying. So I love going, okay, first of all, move the head side to side and get the environment and get some cues of safety. Like if you're particularly going through something really challenging, taking in the messages to the brain of like, where is safety? Let's find it. But then if that fight energy, it would be like, okay, imagine how you would like to express this.

It could be screaming. It could be like the silent screams a really good one. You know, you bring your arms up like this. You hold your hands in the fist and you just go, oh, I like that. Yeah. So it's actually like, see, it's like you've just let that move. But what happens, and I think women, it's, we do this a little bit for, well, our society does this to women, that anger's bad, anger's right.

Anger's wrong. And naturally men have more of that mobilizing sympathetic energy at rest. Like women have higher heart rate variability up until they hit menopause. So through our hormonal setup, through our nervous system, which work hand in hand, we tend to be more towards internalized, blame, shame, shut down. So if we don't learn to hold this greater capacity for anger, when things go wrong and we start to go, I'm angry, then it can go like, oh my gosh, I'm such a bad person, this is my fault. So part of that is building that capacity for anger. But the silence scream,

I just think he's so good. I love that. Okay, I wanted to read the definition for emotional availability because I think a lot of people are so confused by it. And I'm like, we're going to loop this back. Emotional availability means the ability and willingness to openly connect with and engage in meaningful emotional exchanges with others, including expressions of one's own feelings, actively listening to and understand the emotions of others and being receptive to vulnerability and empathy and relationships. Essentially, being present and open to sharing emotions authentically. Now, the reason I brought that up is because I think in dating, we can find ourselves so drawn to the emotionally unavailable. And it's like, oh, because it's mysterious and it's

sexy and oh my God, they're not saying anything. But I would like to also talk about what does that do to us, right? How does that impact, whether it be fight, flight, freeze, fawn? Like, we didn't really go into like really what they each mean. But I'd be curious about how does the nervous system play into our wanting these. We're so drawn to somebody that's not giving us way. Like I always say, I'm like, we only obsess over people that don't make us feel safe. And it's like because I get to fill in the blanks. But I'm curious to hear kind of like this illusion between chemistry and resolve trauma. Like let's talk about emotionally unavailability and what the fuck is happening in our nervous system while this is going on. Yes. I really love these. So we come in born for a

attachment, but we also come in born looking for safety. So we want both. And we have to look at it for kids, right? They are going to sometimes look outside of them and go, okay, mom is a firecracker and sometimes she blows up and, you know, I know that she can be moody. So I've got to keep an eye on her to know that I'm safe, but I also want to attach with her. So how do I do that? We learn this at such a young age and it stays ingrained. So what feels familiar for some people can be the role, you know, like recognizing, oh, I've got to go fix, oh, I've got to go save, or I've got to rescue. Health professionals, you know, I mentor health professionals, the number of health professionals that are fixes and rescuers is huge because that's what they've learned is how to find relational

safety. So if you imagine, right, two circles and they overlap in the middle, part of that is, where we connect with others, and then part where it's separate is like, you know, this is us staying in relationship to ourselves. So the question then becomes, do we tend to go overlap? And so what can happen there is for the people that their sense of relational safety is when they are fixing, rescuing. Oh, but I'm helping you, but I'm doing this. Therefore, it's like a safety. But then what happens is then there can be the resentment and then the no connection at all. So we talk a lot about boundaries, right, but I think this is where, if we're talking relational safety, our ability to stay in relationship with ourselves. So when it comes to the nervous system

and relationships, we want to look at when we are connecting with somebody and we're trying to create this space of relational safety or a connection, you know, whether that's dating or whatever that might be. It could also be the clients we're helping. But what? What is it that helps me stay connected enough to myself to give this overlap part, but still stay connected to me? But I think if we are seeing this play out from when we grew up and we were so used to being hypervigilant and looking outside of us, we, well, there's actually research on this, right?

We will have our own networks light up in our brain, depending on what other people are experiencing and then our fear circuitry will light up as well. And so this is actually empathetic distress. So it's not empathy. It's like I'm getting distressed alongside you. And for a lot of people, they don't know the difference in I can just sit back and watch. And I think this is my own personal story. I wasn't emotionally available for others because I was going into that emotional distress and because I felt so uncomfortable with it, I then was trying to go, oh, well, this is what you should do. This is what you need to, this is the action you need to take. Here's the tissues. Like, I just couldn't be present for others with that. And so that took a long time to

learn to sit in the discomfort that somebody else was experienced and learn the difference of compassion, which was about connecting back to me, connecting back to my own body and that difference of what belongs to me, what doesn't. So with emphasis, distressed, the research shows we lose the distinction between self and other. Which I hear all the time of like, I'm just super empathetic. I'm just very empathetic. I'm an empath. I hear that all the time. Like, oh, I'm just an empath. And I'm like, I get it. But am I like totally off base to be like, but I kind of call bullshit? Like there's because then at that point it's like, where is the rubber remit the road? Because if you're such an owa, like I have one, I'm not even

call her a friend anymore. She's just not. And everything would just be, well, you know, I'm just an empath. And I was like, I kind of have to say like, but are you? Because you. just also seem super emotionally unavailable. Like you feel what everybody else is going through, but what about you? What's happening within you? And so I'm curious, what is that? Is that what you're talking about that empathy distress? Exactly. So then the person, it could be your friend, has lost connection to their own inner world. And it's like their networks are lighting up, their own pain networks are lighting up in their brain and that fear circuitry, which drives them into either fight, flight or freeze. But the thing is, it's not like, this is again comes back

to that sense of self. That's a, state she's moving into. It's not who she is. And so if we use the label of I'm an empaths, then we're saying, I just go into that state. But this is something we can retrain because that interception piece again comes back in. If she learned to do the whole thing of like, what's my body doing? What do I need? What do I feel? And like, separate that. So there's still connection with others, but it's like what's happening for me. So let's say I was telling you something difficult. and you started to notice like far out, I'm getting really overwhelmed by this. That's okay.

And you can even say that to somebody like, wow, this is hard. I feel overwhelmed for you. And you could even say that's, you know, maybe two hours as long as you can hang out with that person. But in that two hours, you are available as opposed to running away and later on being like avoiding people because you feel like it's too messy or too hard. Or I don't want a friend who's got all those problems. And I think in dating, it's really about looking at how can I be available for somebody in a way to listen to them, respond to them? And I think that really has to be that we're in touch with our own body, our own states, our own needs to be available for them. 100%.

The dating's not the hard part. The relationship is when it starts to get real because what we also remember is even another person in there that has a nervous system, that has their own stuff, that has. And like that's why I think the conversations around like the anxious, especially on the internet, everything is so heavily skewed on like, well, I'm anxious, but they're avoiding. I avoid the avoidance. They're the bad people. They're the ones that we stay away from them. And I think what people on misunderstanding is like both of those are really tough. Highly avoidant people are maddening, right? Like it will literally send you spiraling of like, God, Jesus Christ, you shut down again. I didn't say anything. I just said hi. Versus the pendulum swinging with those severely anxious where you're like, whoa, you just spent me 30. 37 text messages in two minutes, man, like, let me breathe. I don't even know your thought. Your thought process is lost. And I think a lot of people, and like, I don't want to just like end on this of like, what does dysregulation look like, right? I think a lot of people misunderstand that like, oh, that hyperfixation on why they haven't text you, like, you're dysregulated or you're catastrophizing right now or you're like on this loop. Like, that means that you're not here right now. And I'm curious, like, what do you see typically of like, what are dysregulation cues? I think that people can look for when they're in these processes to be like, oh, fuck. Because I think that awareness, sometimes you just don't have it. Exactly. Oh, this is such a good topic. So if we look at the vagus nerves connection that runs from the heart up to the face,

we'll call it the social engagement system. You notice if somebody's in a state of regulation or not because their voice will have prosody or change in rhythm and pitch. So, you know, the talking in a calm whispery voice is not actually saying that you're regulated. It's more to do with like the up and down. Like when I see my daughter, I immediately, I'm like, oh, I'm so excited to see me. Or people do it to their dog, you know, who's a good boy, that kind of thing. It's all related to that.

And that ability to listen is we can only really do that from regulation. So when we move up into that mobilized final flight, we might start to hear our own voice change. So it can be like the, yep, I'm really having a nice time and things are great. Or the monotone, angry kind of thing. Like the voice is such a portal to the nervous system. Oh, yeah, that's hit. And even once I had my therapist, I said something and we were talking about my cadence. And I was saying, I'm trying to accept myself.

And she's like a parts work therapist. I really like her. And she just stopped and she's like, your tonation changed. And I was like, at first when we were talking about the way that you were feeling insecure, she's like, you were speaking a lot faster. And she's like, and then when I called out those parts and we let them know that they were safe, she's like, you changed your cadence. You slowed down a little bit.

She's like, I could feel your comfort. Yes. Even something like that, I was like, oh, fuck, I didn't know. I had no idea. It's massive. The voice is so great. And I was talking about the Chinese medicine part before. A big part of that is listening to the voice to work out the constitution.

And you do. You start to hear it. But our own voice, if we notice that, we can be like, oh, I'm seeing this. And then, you know, the mobilization will start to see the criticism, the blame, the storming off, the slamming doors. But I think it's more where we're so busy and so moving and doing that it's really hard for us to be still and present and hence available. On the flip side of that, for people who tend to be more on the immobilized flat, you know, the voice itself will just have that drop and that slowness. Flat facial effect as well, but also hard to listen. And, you know, people who are in a freeze state, what's interesting there is,

that the part of our brain that has to do with taking what we feel and expressing it with words, it actually goes offline. So that's not even a fair expectation on ourselves. But yeah, the change in the voice and the body in that moment. So, you know, immobilization is going to look like a bit of a collapse and a shrinking. So those are like cues where you might also notice, I don't want to text back people. I don't want to go out. I don't want to see people. And as we spiral down, it can really feel like that disconnect and sense of not belonging, which is where, although we don't feel like it, like just going out and getting a coffee and talking to your barista can be enough to completely turn it around. So when we look at the nervous system and being dysregulated,

it doesn't mean that we're dysregulated if we get a bit anxious when things are wrong or that we feel a bit hopeless when things aren't working out. It's when we live in those states and we don't get the time to come home to regulation. And I think dating is a beautiful opportunity to relearn some of this work. And it might bring a lot of these patterns to the surface, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it because this is where we really get to see ourselves, learn from ourselves, and like we've both experienced, learn something new again to really help us spend more time in regulation. And so it's being able to see if we're chronically mobilized or chronically immobilized, that there can be something with the nervous system

at play there. The nervous system changed the game for me. That I knew it all. Because I was very heady, right? It was very cognitive, very, oh, DBT, CBT, EMD, or like, let's just stay in our brain. And it wasn't until my friend who's just all of her, the Masha, that's like her thing is the nervous system. And it just even being something of like, put your hand on your chest, like, what's happening? And I'm like, what? Oh, okay. Oh, we're going to stop and talk about this. I didn't understand even the difference between how I used to be around my dad. And then I hadn't seen him for a year. And then I came back and I was like, whoa, that's where I'm feeling it. Like, my, I would be sweating. My chest would be tight. I would be like on this loop. I'm like,

holy shit. I was in survival for years living in that dynamic. No wonder now you might be a little tired. Right. Oh, Jessica, I could talk to you all fucking day. I am so, thank you so much for coming here and just being able to share just your wisdom and different perspectives and different experiences, tools, modalities. And I'm just grateful. Where can people find you, work with you, work and get training. Tell us more. Everything's on my website, jessica maguire.com. Perfect. That'll be linked on the show notes. Thank you.

Of course. Thank you so much for coming on in. Thank you so much for having me. It's been so fun. My God.