The Sabrina Zohar Show - 146: Why Your Conversations Fail and How to Fix Them with Charles Duhigg

Episode Date: June 20, 2025

Join Sabrina Zohar and Charles Duhigg — a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, bestselling author of The Power of Habit and Supercommunicators, and current writer for The New Yorker — as they break down the communication skills vital for building better relationships. In this episode, they explore essential tools for effective communication, including how to listen actively and how to distinguish between emotional and practical conversations. Discover how mastering these skills can transform not just your romantic life, but also your friendships, family interactions, and professional relationships. What You’ll Learn in This Episode - Active Listening - Emotional vs. Practical Conversations - Building Trust and Resolving Conflict - Communication Beyond Romance Get Charles' book 'Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection' Follow The Science of Better SubStack Email Charles directly: [e-mail] Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or always chasing validation in dating or relationships, the Self Love Course gives you the tools to rebuild your worth from the inside out HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hey, Charles. Hey, how are you? I'm good. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me on. This is such a treat.

I'm so excited. I am super stoked just because, one, I love your work. I love everything you talk about. But I think for everyone, and we kind of talked about this little bit offline, we're evolving because I think I don't want to just focus on dating and relationships. Of course, we will talk about them because they're important. But I think communication and understanding, how do you properly communicate? How do you listen? What does active listening actually mean?

How can you start to understand? I want to be able to give our audience the tools to not only have. help them as they're dating, as they're going out, as they're vetting people and making sure that this is somebody that they could be with, but even friends, family. Absolutely. Themselves. Absolutely. And at its core, communication is about connection, right? It's about connecting with another person. And you're right, in relationships, connection is really important. But so is it at work, right? And with our family and with our friends and with the guy who lives next to us or the woman we see at the store. Connection is what sort of makes life meaningful.

I love that because I'm like, I'm all about connecting, not attaching. I'm like, I want to connect with somebody and I want to get over because so funny, I saw someone the other day posted because I was like, I get anxious when I go out and like new places and they're like, yeah, because you hate small talk. I was like, oh, I do. I was like, I'm not going to, you know, don't make me sit there like, so what do you do? I'm like, I just make stuff up. But, okay, before we get into the fun, could you share with the audience more about you, your history, your work, just how did you find yourself as a super community? Absolutely. So I, for a long time, I was a reporter at the New York Times. And then now I write for the New Yorker magazine.

And about 12 years ago, I wrote this book called The Power of Habit, about the science of habit formation. And I started getting all these letters from people saying, you know, thank you. This has helped me change my habits and it helped me stop eating so much and exercising more. But I want to change other people's habits. How do I do that? And of course, once I started thinking about that, it's really communication became this really important thing. And then this thing happened with my wife, which is I fell into this pattern, which I think everyone who's been in a relationship can understand, which is like I would come home from work some days. And I would start complaining about my day.

And my wife would give me advice. Like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch? And you guys can know each other, but she would solve my problem. And instead of being able to appreciate the solution, I would get more upset. Right. I would say, like, why aren't you supporting me? You're supposed to be outraged on my behalf. She would get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice.

This sounds so familiar. Yes. I think it probably anyone who's in a relationship, this happens, right? And so I just got curious. I wanted to understand why do I keep making this mistake again and again. I love that what led you, because I'm the same personal, experience led me to, wait a minute, because if I can understand myself, humans are, we are complex, but at the same time, I feel like we're all pretty, we have similarities. And so I wanted to know,

even to start off kind of, what do you see as far as the mistakes people make? Where are you, when you were doing this research, for yourself, for everything, how do you normally see the show up where you're like, okay, this is why we're having issues. So there's a couple of things. There's basically sort of three big things that people can do really well to become a super communicator. And if they don't do them well, sometimes things can go awry. First has to do with how language works in our brains. So when I talked to neuroscientists about why I was falling into this pattern with my wife, they would say, well, look, here's what's happening. When you're having a discussion, you think you know what that discussion is about, right? You're talking about your dating life,

or you're going to go to dinner. But actually, you're having multiple kinds of conversations at once. And in general, these conversations tend to fall into one or three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're solving problems or we're making plans. But then there's emotional conversations where I don't want you to solve my emotions. I want you to empathize. And then And then there's social conversations about who we are and the identities that are important to us, how we relate to other people. And what they said is what we've discovered is if people are having different kinds of conversations at the same moment, they can't really hear each other. So I was having an emotional conversation with my wife. She was having a practical conversation. We were like ships passing on the night. So this is the first big mistake is that oftentimes we go into a conversation, assuming we know what kind of conversation is.

Oh, we're going to talk about the budget for this month. And like, this is a practical conversation. It's all numbers, right? But it turns out that for you, this is an emotional conversation because you're worried about having to lay some folks off. If I'm having a practical conversation and you're having emotional conversation, we're not going to connect with each other. It's going to be hard to really hear and understand each other. So that's the first big one. That makes it almost so much sense. And now, is that something that was that one of the first things that you noticed when you were doing all of this of like, oh, shit, that's the divide? Absolutely.

Absolutely. And once you know to look for it, you see it all the time, right? So a good example is, you know, oftentimes you're sitting in a meeting and you're waiting for the meeting to start. And this happened to me just a couple of weeks ago. I turned to the guy next to me. I'm like, hey, how's your weekend? And he said, oh, I went to my kid's graduation. It was great.

Like, it was so amazing to watch him walk across the stage. Now, the easiest thing for me to do would be like, oh, we're in a work meeting. Like, okay, so here's the agenda. Let's get done to business. But what he said, he used an emotional work, right? It was so amazing. And so what I did is I just asked, how did it feel to watch your kid graduate? And for the next five minutes, he tells me about, like, how proud he was because it made him think of his own dad,

but also like he's it means his kid is leaving the nest and in we sort of connected and then the rest of the meeting went great so i try and look for those clues now i love getting curious with people and i think that's the biggest thing because you know it's funny this is going to be a total sidebar we're going for it with communication i hear this every fucking day of especially the biggie of like i'm going on dates why don't people ask me questions i don't understand and i was curious like what do you see with that because i hear it all the time and i'll see it and there's There's a few ways it plays out. I've had that where you're like, Jesus, God, man, like, I was just pulling teeth. Like, you just, you're looking to be like a deer in headlights.

You're not actually engaging. And whether that be dating a relationship or you could be in a relationship with somebody, you can have a friend that does things like that. But I think, what do you see in that regard? Because, of course, we could start to understand of like attachment styles, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when we see that, like, I think for a lot of the folks, especially that listen to the show and me, I would see that as challenge accepted. Oh, let me try harder. Let me show up more with this person. Well, what do you actually do in that moment, especially when you're across on this person, you're like, do you want me to, like, sing and dance for you to maybe get a reaction? Yeah, no, it drives me crazy. And I will say, there's only so much

time you have to give people who don't know how to ask you questions, right? But let's say that you are enthusiastic about the date, you want to like, or the relationship, you really want to get to know this person. You want to connect with them. So this is actually the second big mistake that people often make, and the second thing that super communicators do. When researchers have looked at super communicators, people who are best of the communication, they find that they ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. That makes sense. Yeah, but they ask specific kinds of questions, right? So some of the questions that they ask are what are known as deep questions. They're questions that ask about your values or your beliefs or your experiences. And that can seem overwhelming and intimidating,

but it's as simple as if you're on a date with someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, what what hospital do you work at saying, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right. Right. Because that second question is the one that's really going to draw out who they are, what they believe in, what their experiences were. Now, in that situation where I'm asking you question after question and you're not returning the favor, there's two things I can do.

The first is the nice thing about a deep question is it's very natural for me to answer my own question. Oh, you became a doctor because you saw your dad get sick. I became a lawyer because I saw my uncle get arrested when I was a kid, right? And now it feels more like a conversation less like an interview. The second thing, and I use this all the time, is that if I've asked three or four questions and the other person hasn't asked any questions back, I usually say, I'm sorry I'm asking you so many questions. You probably have some questions for me. Let me give you a chance to ask.

Oh, I love that. And what happens, though, is that you realize they actually do have questions. It's just that they're not practiced at asking them. It feels awkward to them to ask questions because maybe they're little introverted. Maybe they're someone who spends a lot of time on the computer or not with people. And when you invite that opportunity to ask a question, what you're really doing is you're giving them a gift. Yeah. So I use that a lot and I think it works really well.

I, God, I remember in my hey days. I've had guys where I just sat there and they look at me and I'm like, but you're not asking any questions and I just asked you eight. And I'm like, because after a while, and then that's when you're like that, that person might not be for me. But as you were talking, that's kind of how Ryan and I set up. When we first started dating, he is more, I mean, he's a tech guy, right?

So he was, I see her computers. I don't like he works with people in tech. So it's a very different way of communication. communicating, which is what I want to get to of, like, the differences of how you can communicate. Like you said with the earlier, the story of, like, this is a work meeting. Right. Right. And so understanding, like, there are boundaries, right?

There are limitation. Like, you don't want to be talking to your boss about getting sloppy drunk last night. Absolutely. And then worrying of, like, they're going to remember those things. But when we first started dating, when we first went on a date, hi, I talk. Weird. I don't know where that came from. Very charmingly.

And we were talking, and I remember just thinking I was asking kind of question after question and probing deeper. And I'm the same. don't just ask, like, tell me about your ex. It's like, oh, I don't give a shit about your your ex. But what I care about is how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? Right. Right. Because I want to see, do you take accountability? How do you speak of people from your past? Absolutely. And it's just fascinating, right? To sort of understand who someone is through the story that they tell about themselves. Exactly. Because if I'd listen to my ex called all of his ex is crazy, probably wouldn't have

been here by now. Yes, it's a good warning size. For a different day. But I remember thinking after the date, I was like, he doesn't ask a lot of questions. And then it wasn't until, like we talked about it a couple of dates later and he was like, oh, no, it's just that I take a little longer to process and then to respond. He was like, and because you're just such a fast talker, he's like, you'll fill in the space. You fill in the space. You fill in the space. And he's like, by the time I get to like go and ask. Things have moved on. Exactly. He's like you're already going under the next question. And so for me, and like, I think it's interesting. I like that we have both sides of the conversation because I think we see this all the time. And like, of course, right, if you use what you just said, right, if you use both of those tips that you gave on a date on an app and this person is still not giving you anything.

Bye-bye, right? Then it sounds like they're limited. Not for you. We don't need to create any more of a narrative. But I'm big on the curiosity piece because I remember even asking Ryan, like I said, I miss you once. And he wrote, thank you so much. And he said, and he probably meant it, right?

It probably didn't occur to him to say like, oh, I miss you too. No. But I was appreciative because I texted him. I said, was that not well received? And he said, oh, no, it absolutely was. I just, it takes me a little longer to get there, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, okay. Now, had I not asked that question?

Oh. Yeah. No, what I love about this is what you're engaging in is called meta-conversation. Oh, tell me more. So you're having a conversation about how you guys have conversations. And this is incredibly important. And oftentimes we shy away from it. And we shy away from it because first of all, we're like, oh, my gosh, that's so, like, weird and formal. Like, I don't want to seem like super needy by asking this person, like, hey, like, why didn't you respond to my text? Or we do it because we're worried that admitting that something is hard.

we'll make the other person see us as weak. But both of those are absolutely wrong. What the studies tell us again and again is when we engage in metaccommunication, when you turn to Ryan and you say, hey, I said you this text and the way you responded was a little bit surprising to me. Like what was going on? He appreciates it so much, right? Because it never occurred to him that he might have given you the wrong response.

It's super interesting to him to be like, oh, when she says, I miss you, like she's looking for me to say, I miss you back, right? So this meta communication, this conversation about how we have conversations is incredibly important, particularly in romantic relationships, because everyone has a slightly different set of habits that they've built around communication. Welcome aboard via rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and sip.

Play. Post. Taste. View. And enjoy. Via Rail, love the way. I see as often especially, you hit on that nail earlier a moment ago, the needy, right? And I see that all the time.

And I mean, I understand we, especially depending on your childhood, like, I think somebody asked the other day of like, I don't get it. Don't these guys know they're bad communicators? And I was like, who taught them that? Who showed anybody? How did I learn to communicate personally? Uh, shout out to Yuri was scream, yell, get irate, get knee-jerk reaction, right? Like, if you say something I don't like, I'm coming for you, jugular.

Right. Or my mom, shut down, don't say anything. Play nice. Be a good girl. Don't you dare rock the boat. Shut your mouth. And so for me along the way, I had to learn, okay, what makes me feel good? Yeah.

And so for me, I enjoy getting clarity. And so, like, a big thing I have is when people start to pull away or you start to notice someone's shift in dynamic, we hear all of this content of, like, block them, walk away, move on. And I'm like, here's what I would suggest. Maybe let them know, hey, I've noticed a shift in our dynamic. Am I picking up on that correctly? I think that's really smart and really important.

Because at the end of the day, when we communicate with someone, what we're really trying to do is we're trying to understand them. And that doesn't mean understand them on our terms. That means understand them on their terms. And so the best gift that I can give someone is to say, this is how I heard something you said, but I want to make sure that that's what you intended, because you might have meant something completely different. And when we do that, what we find again and again is that people's intentions are actually great, right? People want relationships to work. They want to get to know you. They might be a little bit clumsy at it. They might not know exactly how to do it. But when we ask those deep questions, when we say,

here's what I heard you say, am I getting that right? That at that moment, what we're doing is we're giving them the gift of saying, I want to actually understand what you're saying to me. And that feels amazing. You feel seen. Yeah. And I know for so many of us, like I don't feel like anyone hears me. That's my wound, right?

Of like, yeah, let me, why aren't you listening to me? So when someone comes back and says that, it's funny when you were talking earlier about, the different types of conversations, right, when you're having one being emotional, more practical, things like that. Now, in that moment, I'm curious, because we're, We have, Ryan and I've had that. And I'll share my personal experience, but I'm curious, like, from the actual, what do you do, right?

Yeah. What I do. But I had the same thing. Ryan kept trying to fix things. If I would go and say something and I get it, that's very like, I'm a man, let me try to fix. Let me make sure everything's okay. And I was the same as you being like, could you please not trying to fix this?

Like, could you just let me vent for a second and just instead of being like, oh, just get off social. You're like, shut the fuck up. So in that moment, I had to say, hey, the way that you were trying to support me doesn't work for me. What I actually need is if you could give me the space to, vent and cry and maybe just sit next to me and allow me to know that you're there and you're listening. And over time, I remember the last time we had a conversation, he sat there and he asked me after,

he said, can I ask you for feedback? And I said, of course. And he said, I want to know. Did you feel supported? He was like, did I support you in the way that you needed just now? And I said, yeah, actually, you really did. He's like, you didn't feel like I tried to fix it. That's a good guy. He's the best guy. And I remember just sitting there and I was like, oh, shit. And my reason I share a lot of these stories isn't because I'm like, my relationship is perfect. It's not. We have our shit. But we didn't walk out like this. We didn't show up meeting like this and going, oh, that's it. But every time I brought something to him, he would listen and vice versa, hey, I don't appreciate the way you said that. Like, sometimes I'll be like, I need you to take it down. You're really

bringing it up a level that doesn't feel comfortable right now. And I'll stop and be like, okay, thank you for letting me know. But I'm curious, right? Outside of that way of doing things, especially when you're in it, how do you handle it when like emotions are high? I think a lot of us react, Yeah. So, and what I love about what you just said is that what I heard and tell me if I'm getting this wrong is that you guys have gotten into the habit of telling the other person what you want and need from this conversation. Right. And we're used to doing that in all kinds of settings. Like if you read anything about like sex advice, it's like tell them what you're looking for, which makes a lot of sense. But then as soon as we get out of bed, we think that like, oh, you should be able to intuit exactly what I want out of this conversation. You should be able to read my mind. But when you just sit down and say, here's what I need from you. And then they say, did I do a good job of it? You say, yes, you did a wonderful job. That's how you build new habits. That's how you inculcate these behaviors. Now, you asked about the emotionality, and I'm curious.

I have some questions about your relationship with Ryan, because I imagine this comes up with you guys. But you're exactly right that when something hits a trigger for us, it's very easy to become reactive to sort of go fly off the handle. In fact, in marriage therapy, they have found that the single worst habit a couple can get into, this almost always leads to real problems is what's known as a kitchen. sinking. And that means if we start fighting about one thing, we start fighting about everything. Right. Now, like, I don't want to go to your moms for vacation. Well, that's because you don't earn enough money and you hate my mom. And right, and like the kids don't. So all of a sudden, you've got this huge number of things. What's really important in those moments when we feel emotionally under attack is to find something we can control. Now, our first incentive is to control

the other person. No, of course. Right? To say, like, you can't ask me about that or like, I'm not even talk about that. Oh, that you were worried about that? That's a dumb thing to be worried about. I'm trying to control your emotions. And I have that instinct for control. We all have that incident for control. It's very natural. But if we can find things to control together, then that's much, much more positive, right? If I can say to you, look, let's talk about Thanksgiving. Let's not talk about money or our moms. Like, that's another conversation. But let's just, let's control the boundaries of this conversation together. I like that. Let's control the timing of it, right? Instead of having this fight at two o'clock in the morning, Let's wait until we're like 10 tomorrow morning.

Can we just put it on ice until we wake up tomorrow and we're better rested? Now we're controlling the environment together. When we feel that instinct, when we feel attacked, our instinct is fight or flight. And the way that we overcome that is by identifying something we can control and then controlling it with the person that we're talking to. I love that because it's really such an exemplification of like it's teamwork. Right. You guys are a team. And I think, I mean, I know when Ryan and I first started dating, I saw him as against me, right?

because you're so used to when you're like, my guard is up, like, I'm not letting you in. And now actually something that we've done one thing that has changed the game for us. Because I love Ryan, but he's more avoidant leaning, right? So he's very fine with like, why talk about it? Let me just stuff this down and we just don't have to deal with it. And then me, I'm like, the fuck we are. And so what we've done now is when something comes up, when it arises in the moment, either of us will do this.

To avoid resentment, can I share? And when I hear, to avoid resentment, can I share instantly, we both know, turn to the person, body language. Like, we've talked about that. And we have keywords. That or he says, I'm offline. I know when he says offline, he's too overwhelmed. He is not with me right now.

I can back off because at least I'm getting something and I'm not sitting there being like, knock, knock. Right. Where are you? Right. Feeling like he's ignoring you. Like he's making a choice to ignore you. So, and I love this. And one of the things I'm hearing you say is that you guys have done a really good job of creating little phrases that are suitcases for whole ideas and conversations you've had before.

Tell me more about this. Well, I think. When he says, I'm offline, what he's really saying to you is, remember the three other times that this has happened and that you were worried that I was ignoring you. And I explained, I'm not ignoring you. I'm just feeling overwhelmed. It's this whole conversation that I've packed into just one little word. I'm offline. And the more we do that, that is what a relationship is, right? It's about building these little phrases, these little habits, these little things, heuristics that we return to that help us communicate with the other person without having to go through all the details of that communication.

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Plan started just $12 a month. Learn more at tellus.com slash online security. No one can prevent all cybercrime or identity theft. Conditions apply. So when you and Ryan have fights, because we all have fights, right, as a natural part of relationships, how do those fights go well and how do they get poorly? They get poorly when both of us go into our dysregulation. So that's why we're even now, like we had a fight like maybe a couple of months ago. And I haven't told him, I was like, I'm going to go for a walk.

I don't want to talk for an hour. I was like, I think it's best if you'd probably do the same. I was like, we'd do whatever you want. I said, but I need to remove myself. I have to process this. I was like, I am too angry. That's when I realize that we lose each other because I will get irate. I'll get really emotional.

I'll shut down in my own way. Like, I might have anxiety. I also shut down. I could just go stow. I can just sit there. And then he'll just go right into like, nothing I do is right. Like, I'm a failure. Or just like going into the fawning of like, oh, fuck, I did something wrong.

Right. So that's when I know we've lost each other. When it goes well, isn't because we have a kumbaya at the end. It's usually because I at the end feel like yesterday we had a talk where I was like, hey, you know, I asked you to do something. And I felt like you gave me an attitude with it. And it was for work. I'm like, you work for the company. Like, we do need to be on the same page about this.

and he just stopped and he looked at me and he was like, okay, could you tell me more about like, what did I do? He got curious to understand my perspective. And then when we have something, I get curious about his of like, oh, okay, so when I said that, like, to your point, what you said earlier of like, what was coming up for you? Like, where did you go in that moment? Or where do you shut down? When you shut down, like, what was the thought that comes up for you? And then I start to understand him more because I'm like, oh, you're scared I'm going to leave you?

Oh, that's never been, right? And then we're able to have a real conversation because we focus on what it actually is and not the noise around it. Because when we're bringing in like, well, you did this. Right. That's why we have those code works. We don't get to that point unless it's something where it's like, hey, this has been a pattern. I've been trying to be okay with it. And usually what the result is, both of us going, okay, I will talk to my therapist or coach about this.

So there's this expression I love if you're feeling furious, get curious. Yeah, I love that. Which is great. And what's happening there is exactly what communication and conversations are supposed to do. When you get curious or you say something to Ryan says, tell me more about that. What he's signaling to you is, I want to understand how you see the world. And at the core, we think of conversations as many, many things, but there's only one goal of a conversation. And that is to understand how you see the world and to speak in such a way that you understand how I see the world.

If we walk away from a conversation and we disagree with each other, we disagree about politics, you think that we should go to Tahiti and I think we should go to Paris. But we feel like we genuinely understand what the other person was saying and we both feel listened to, then that disagreement. is not actually going to be that big a deal, right? The understanding is the goal. And when we signal that you are so important to me, that even though I disagree with what you're saying, even though I think you acted like this crazy way when I was bringing up this thing before,

but I want to understand what's going on. That is when the other person says, oh, this is a relationship. I feel connected to you. We don't have to agree with each other to connect. I've had people literally asked me, someone asked me today, how do you share things with Ryan and not trigger him?

And I was like, that's not my responsibility. My responsibility is not to make sure, that he can handle what I say. Obviously, I can choose the language that I'm speaking. But I think that's where we get conflated of like, well, I don't want a same thing to upset them. What do you do? I guess how could we help somebody?

If that's their thought process, or more of that people pleasing of like, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to be too much. I don't want to go there. So a lot of what we know about communication is that we do violence and communication sometimes when we push other people without intending to into a corner. Right?

If I say, oh, you know, as a woman, you must have had a lot of experiences like working with men. I'm just wondering, like, do you find, like, is it hard to be in an unfair workplace? Here's what I've done, right? It is true. And that might be an interesting question. But here's what I've done. I've said, instead of saying you're a podcast host, you are a girlfriend, you are a influencer.

I've said, you're just a woman. You're just a woman. I've told you who you are. If I say, every time, like, we talk about this, you always bring up this thing and it drives me crazy. I'm pushing you. I'm telling you who you are. That feels aggressive, right? A much better way to do it is to say, let me tell you about me.

Here's how I feel. When you say that thing, and you probably have legitimate reasons for saying it, but let me tell you how it makes me feel because I want you to understand, and I want to understand if that's your intent. At that moment, I'm not attacking you. I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm just talking about myself. So particularly for people who are people pleasers, the best thing you can do is you can just

talk about yourself. You don't have to talk about other people. You don't have to tell them what they're doing right or wrong, but you can say, here's the authentic experience that I am having. And it's not an attack. It's just something that shares. And the other person inevitably is going to say, oh, I had no idea. Right.

The impact that I had. And I see, that's why I hate you, never, or like anything with you, or never always, right, the sweeping generalizations. Why not have had that? I'll even look. I'll stop and go, that's not fair. You're right. Right. I really misappropriated a word.

I statements, right? I didn't love that. I didn't feel this. Because what are you going to argue with me about my feelings? great, then I don't know that I want to be with you. Right, exactly. You're the expert on your feelings. Everyone is the expert on themselves. And the more that we invest in that expertise, and we say, like, look, I don't know what the right thing for you to do is, but let me just tell you how I'm feeling. That feels really like someone's sharing. Now the pendulum to the other side. So we have that, the people

please are, but I'm not going to do anything. But then we go to the other side and I hear it all the time. I'm like, I'm a great communicator. I am a good. But really what I see is I'm like, that's trauma dumping. Like, it's just the point where it's like, it's a thousand texts in a row. It's manic, it's every thought process you have is being shared with this person. Now, where is that balance? Because that's really overwhelming to receive. Absolutely. And I think these people are like, hey, get it. I think with that anxiety, you genuinely believe, because I hear this all the time of like, well, the anxious person shuts down. At least I communicate. And I'm like, no, no, no, you constantly talk. Right. That doesn't mean you're communicating because you're not necessarily making points

that land. You're throwing pasta wondering what's going to stick. That's exactly right. That's what I'm curious about, one, how can we help those people? But two, how do you start to really understand the difference, especially when either you were that person or you were talking to that person. Yeah. So a conversation is a dialogue. There's lots of discussions we have that are not conversations. Right? When I say to my kids, I have two kids and I say to them, I want to have a conversation about your rooms. I don't actually want to have a conversation about their rooms. I want them to go clean their damn rooms. But there are times that we want to actually have a conversation. And at those moments, it's really important that we pay attention to how often we're both speaking. Because one of the things that happens is that when people have what's known as a quality and conversational turn taking, they feel safe.

And this is true in meetings. This is true in gatherings with friends. If you're in a meeting and there's one person who's talking all the time and there's two people who are sort of wallflowers and are not talking, they're not going to feel like that's a real team. They're not going to feel like it's not going to feel good. But if you have a leader who says, hey, Susie, I haven't heard from you a little bit. Let me tell, like, what's going on with? Like, what do you think of that idea, inviting her into the conversation? then we get that equality and conversational turn taking.

And what it means is if I've sent you three texts and you haven't replied yet, let me go ahead and just wait for you to reply. Let me give you the opportunity of conversational turn taking. Because from my perspective, I'm thinking, the more I tell you, the better you'll understand me. And I want you to really understand me because I like you so much. And the other side is saying, this person's nuts. Like I don't understand why my phone is blowing up. The problem there is this turn taking.

And if the person who sends the three texts just says, Now I'm going to wait. Three texts. I wish. Try. 173 was my heyday, Charles. I swear. Yes, that is factual.

Because it was manic. It was just, I need to get it out. To your point, kind of a trauma response. If I over-explain, if I tell you that this is why I'm bleeding, you'll understand that that's why I'm in pain. But at that point, the thing to realize is this is not me trying to understand you. No. This is me trying to force you to understand me.

Now I love that. Right. And the point of a conversation is mutual understanding. So I said before. The goal of a conversation is for me to understand how you see the world and for me to speak in a way that you can understand how I see the world. Now, if I send you 173 texts, I am not speaking in a way that you can understand how I see the world. I might believe that I'm sharing with you, but when I communicate with you, I have to pay attention to what kind of communication seems to land for you. 100%.

I'm curious because we've talked about a lot of the communicating, but all listening, right? I think we should really talk about looping. I know that you have techniques that you teach of like how do you actually. listen because I think, you know, even a question I'd written down because Ryan had a really question of like, how can you tell someone is actively listening and not just waiting for their turn to speak? Right. Because that's a huge thing, right?

I see it even with clients where I'm like, you're busting at the seams because you're waiting for me to be done and I can tell you didn't, nothing I've said, has landed, whether that be dysregulation or not. But I think now, how can we become better listeners and how can we gauge to see that people are listening? Because I don't know about you, I've said it sometimes or I'll look at Ryan. I'm like, did you hear? I told you that's four times already.

And he's like, oh, I didn't remember that. And you're like, do I have to record this next time? It doesn't breed trust. Yeah, no, absolutely. So this is the third big thing that super communicators do that we can learn from, which is they listen really well. And what that means is that they understand that listening is not a passive activity, right? We tend to think of listening, meaning I open my ears and I close my mouth.

That's the first step of listening. But if I'm simply absorbing what you're saying to me, and I'm not proving to you that I'm hearing what you're saying, I'm not asking follow-up questions, I'm not engaging in what's on this loop in for understanding, then you don't believe that I'm listening to you. And that means that the listening loop isn't happening. So what's this looping for understanding? This is a very formal way of doing it,

but when you're in a conflict conversation, when you're talking about something really important, where you disagree with each other, where emotions are running high, this is a very powerful tool. It has three steps. The first step is, I'm going to ask you a question, preferably a deep question, right?

And I'm going to listen to what you have to say. That's the passive part. Step two is, I'm going to repeat back what I heard you say in my own words. And the goal here is, is to prove to you that I was paying attention, to prove to you that I'm actually thinking about what you're saying.

And if I do this right, I've actually repeated what you said in such a way that you're like, you actually said it better than I did, right? I feel understood. Now, many of us do step one and step two sort of intuitively, step three that I always forget, which is once I've done that,

ask if I've got it right. Say, oh, did I understand you? Am I getting it right? Because at that moment, what I'm doing is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge that I'm listening, you become much more likely to listen to me in return. It's social reciprocity. It's hardwired into our brains by evolution.

As you're talking and thinking about earlier when we had to call with our lawyer who's been dicking us around, everything is always something. And he said something. And I literally went back and I said, let me get this right. You didn't tell us this. He said, I didn't say that. And I said, no, no, no, you literally just said it. No, I said that they were thinking of doing that. And I said verbatim, I have someone here literally nodding their head. You said word for word, this. And that's why I said, I think we're done with this conversation if you're not going to take accountability and ownership of what you literally just said. And he said, you know, you kept interrupting me. And I said, and you're also not letting me speak. I said, you spoke for three and a half minute straight. And it's been 90 seconds. I can't get a sentence out because you keep trying to come in. And then he finally said, he said, okay, fine. I'm listening. And I said, but you're

not. And that's when I said, I said, I'm going to hang up right now because we're no longer having a conversation. Now, that might not always be the way to do it. But like, let's say, you're talking to a boss or a friend, right? Again, this isn't always just romantic. What do you do when someone's fucking just straight up gaslighting you? Or pretty much that, I didn't say that. And you're like, but I feel like I'm going insane. You just did. So at that point, you have an opportunity. And the opportunity is to say, I think I must have misunderstood or maybe you misspoke. Let's reset. Tell me what you meant to say. Like, help me understand what you're really trying to communicate. Now, if they're trying to gaslight you, if they're

trying to like just like be a jerk or a dick then that's not going to work right these are all assuming that people genuinely want to connect with each other they genuinely want to have a conversation but in that moment and i do this all the time i will say things to my wife and i say it the wrong way and she gets upset and it's not her fault it's my fault right because i said something that was like kind of clunky and she took some inference from it and what i meant was something else but if we stop and we say look i just want to let you know like what you just said it kind of hurts my feelings here's what I heard you say, did I get it right? Oftentimes I'm like, oh, no, no, no, I did not mean that at all.

I'm so sorry. Like, I understand that I said, like, oh, that woman, she's really pretty. And that you heard me saying that, like, that means that I think she's really pretty as opposed to something. Like, what I meant was that, like, she just seems nice. And like, yeah, I do this all the time. It's so innocent, right? It's so innocent. And yet, the way that we get around that is this meta-communication.

Here's what I heard you say. This is how it made me feel. Did I get that right? Yeah. And that gives me a chance to say, I'm sorry, that was not my intent. And let me ask you this. You've been married, right? You've two kids.

So you've got years of experience. Does that ever end where you have these conversations? Because for me, I'm finding it doesn't where you're, Ryan always says a relationship is one giant conversation. Yeah. I think that's right. I think a good relationship is one giant conversation, right? It goes on for years and years and years. And I find, I mean, honestly, I think my wife and I love each other because of our conversations, right?

It's how we connect. It's how we experience the world. Now, that doesn't mean that all conversations are easier, that all conversations are fun, and they can definitely get easier. As you learn, and one of the reasons I wrote super communicators is because there's all these principles of like, here's how you have this kind of conversation. Here's how I have that kind of conversation. Understanding the skills makes it easier. But what's most important is wanting to have the conversation, wanting to connect with this person, wanting to share with them how you see the world in a way that they can absorb it and you understand how they see the world. when we send that back and forth in a relationship,

that's how we say I love you, right? At least for me. Yeah, the words are cheap, but saying like, I want to understand you, I want you to understand me. That is love. It's also healing because I never had anybody that did that.

I didn't personally have a caregiver that stopped to be like, hey, what's going on with you? Are you okay? No. It was just, man, be a strong girl, go, come on, be a good girl, get over it. My dad is, stop crying. I'm done with this.

And so you learn very young, oh my God, I'm too much. There's something wrong with me. I don't know how. And he's trying to control you, right? He's trying to say stop crying. It feels, it feels a little threatening when someone tries to control you, whereas if he had said, let's talk about why you're crying. Like, is this the appropriate response? Right. Because when I see you cry, it makes me really worried, like that something's going on. When he says that, he's showing you, like,

I love you. Like, I see you. I want to understand you. If only, I was three. You know, you're a kid. And I get my dad, he has no patient. He would hit us if you cry. Like, he just don't make me feel anything. I don't want to feel because he has to take accountability for what he did. And, And that is never an excuse. I understand he has his stuff, right? I can hold those two conflicting thoughts. But I think something I really want to exemplify and I think we are sold such a false bill of good

on social media especially is that like a relationship should be easy. It should just work. And it just flows. And it's like, who the fuck sold you on that? No, it's a job. It's a job. Nobody would be like, I definitely deserve to earn a million dollars this year

because I'm going to do something easy. Right? When you get paid for doing something, it's because it was hard and it was work. And a relationship is work. Now, that doesn't mean that it's not fun work. It doesn't mean it's not the kind of work that makes you feel exhilarated, but it's still work. I mean, my wife and I have been married, let's see, 22 years this year.

Awesome. And we met in college and it's still work. And it's easier now than it was before, but new stuff comes up all the time. All the time. You just know each other more. You understand their patterns more. You understand the minutia more. It's not as threatening to be like, who the fuck are you?

What are you trying to get for me? And there's still times that Liz turns to me and says, like, and she's very good at this. It's like, let's take a break. Yeah. Like, I want to understand what you're saying, but let me tell you how it makes me feel the way you're saying it. Yeah, de-escalating in any way possible. Absolutely. And like, here's one thing is I'm curious because I've had a lot of people right in.

I've met this person. They're so secure. They're so healthy. They're so all of these things. And then you're like, okay, what makes you think that? Oh, they listen to me. And you're like, I had one girl. And she was like, we have such deep conversations.

And then when I think Ryan had asked her, he goes, who is it deep about? And she just looked him and she was like, is it you? Or is it actually him that's sharing? And then we stopped and she's like, oh my God, he's never shared anything. She's like, it's always me forming that. And so I know you have the deep connection versus small talk, right? I really want to understand how can we be more present? Because I think that's what we're talking about.

Communication is being present. I barely have to look at my notes because I'm in this conversation and I'm picking up what you're saying and we're having a dialogue. And I get to learn and I'm present and it's fun. But I think when we get into that stage of like, I think so many people are performing and they're trying so hard to get somebody to see them, whether that be a boss or a partner or anything. And it's either they realize that it's actually quite small talk

or they get obsessed with the fucking, don't even start with the texting. The incessant texting of early stages of like, but how else am I supposed to get to know someone? It's like, I don't know, maybe spend time with them and stop being on your phone and relying on something that is no tone. But how can we start to differentiate between

are you having real connection versus are we engaging in small talk surface level shit? And we can't be surprised when this person that came on really strong after one date that told you their level of life ends up ghosting because they didn't know you. Right. I think that's a really good question. So I think that at the core of this oftentimes is thinking about what we need in a conversation, if I come into a conversation saying what I need is I need you to know three things about me,

then it's probably not going to be a conversation where I learn a lot about you. Right. But if I come into a conversation saying, here's what I need, I need to know three things about you. What I'm doing there is I'm giving you the opportunity to say those three things. But instead of you having to be in your own head and say, like, here's the three things I want this guy to know and walking away from me, I'm saying, I am curious in you, and it's going to spark your curiosity to me. So I'm going to get to tell you all kinds of things about myself. I'm going to get to tell you about my past relationships.

I'm going to get to tell you about what I want and what I need. But part of that means that before I get into that conversation, I need to sit down and I need to make a little list for myself in my head of, here's what I want to know about this person, right? And the odds are they're going to want to know the same things about me just by asking them. It was actually an experiment that was done by some professors at Harvard Business School where they told all these students, you're about to have a conversation with a stranger, which is a pretty anxiety-producing thing.

And they said beforehand, we want you to write down three things you might talk about, right? Like, are you going to the party this weekend? And, you know, did you see that latest Marvel movie, whatever it is? And then take 30 seconds to do that. Then write it down on piece of paper, stick the paper in your back pocket. And then afterwards, they asked everyone how'd the conversations go. And everyone said, you know, actually, it was so much better than I thought it was going

to be. Like, I felt so relaxed and, like, present in the moment. And then they said, did you ask those questions you wrote down? And they said, no, no, I totally forgot about them. But the fact that I had them in my back pocket made it so much easier for me to have the conversation, right? This is really important, is that we talk about conversations with other people. We need to have conversations with ourselves.

And that means a dialogue with ourselves where we're asking ourselves questions. We're answering those questions, honestly. We're critiquing those answers and saying, you know, why is it important that you bring this up on your first date? Like, what's going on there? Is it really important? when we create time to have conversations with ourselves, we are doing ourselves a kindness.

And the best part about this is we are all really good at it. Literally anyone can be a super communicator. Our brains have evolved to be excellent in communication. It's hardwired into how we think. We need to know the skills to help us be communicators, which is why I wrote the book. But once we know those skills and they become habits, we are great communicators.

We just have to let it go. In communities across Canada, hourly Amazon employees earn an average of over $24.50 an hour. Employees also have the opportunity to grow their skills and their paycheck by enrolling in free skills training programs for in-demand fields like software development and information technology. Learn more at aboutamazon.ca. I will be the first to say it really is about learning the tools. I was never taught that. I didn't know. the reason I know how to do this is I fucked up so many times. I had so many terrible conversations. I had how many times where I assumed that the guy was into me and everything was great. And then you find out they have another girl they're dating. And you're like, whoa, I guess I, you're right. And then you're talking. You're like, oh, you're right. I didn't communicate honestly. I was trying to play the cool girl. I was trying to be something I'm not. And when I've learned at the end of the day, if you're going to learn anything about communicating is you're going to have to try to do it. And you're probably not going to do it very well at first.

And that's really important, is that simply because you and I have a bad conversation, it does not mean that I'm a failure. It does not mean I'm bad at communication. It means that like everything else on life, like we would never give a book to a kid. And if they didn't read the entire thing on their first try, be like, oh, you must not be a reader. You must be terrible at reading. Right. It's a skill is we learn how to do it.

And so as a result, like every other skill, like going to CrossFit or going to a gym club, right? I go to yoga sometimes and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I look terrible. But I'm learning the moves. I'm learning the positions. I look a lot better now than I did six months ago when I'm on the mat. When we do that, it's okay to make mistakes. Mistakes are how we learn.

Yes. And it doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that your failure. It doesn't mean that you failed in that moment. It means that you conducted an experiment and you got some data and the next time you're going to do better. And like you said about talking to yourself, do you know, Bridget Frank? No. I love her.

She's a my best friend and she's a neuropist. Okay. And she always talks about like she did IFS, a lot of the littles. And she's always like, have a cup of coffee with your little. Like talk to yourself like you would your best friend. Hey, man, what's going on? What's happening for you? Are you okay? We show so much compassion and grace to everyone else. But then with ourselves, God, I'm my own worst asshole. Right. And so I think it really starts because how am I going to have a conversation with you? If I'm sitting in my head being like, you're an idiot. Oh, God, he thinks you're so stupid. Why are you saying that? Versus like, hey, girl, we're going to do our best and we're going to see how this goes. And if it doesn't work, we can always try to reconcile. And if not, we move on with our life. Absolutely. And by the way, if this is a real relationship, we're literally going to have thousands of conversations, right? If this one doesn't go well, that's a okay, because there's going to be so many other conversations where we get another bite of this apple. I do want to ask quickly, before we kind of wrap up in general, about how to balance the vulnerability when you're communicating, because I do think

that can backfire. And I think I've seen it where people will tell me things that they share, and you're like, oh, no, that's not like appropriate in the early stages. Like, well, you don't need to be talking about, like, what your father did as a child. But how do you balance that to have that, like, emotional depth, but also safety with somebody, because I'm a big fan of, like, give a little and see, but I'm curious, like, actually, in the studies that you've done, how do we balance vulnerability and even figure out what the fuck vulnerability is for us? So vulnerability is really important, right? Vulnerability is what makes a conversation into a connection.

But we tend to misunderstand what vulnerability is. We think that vulnerability is, I have to cry or I have to tell you about some traumatic memory. Vulnerability has a very specific definition in neuroscience and in psychology. Vulnerability is a neural cascade of feeling that something that happens inside my brain. when I tell you something that you could judge. Now, that doesn't mean it has to be really deep. I could tell you, I like Star Trek better than Star Wars. And you might think, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, right?

But at that moment, I feel vulnerable because I've told you something you could judge, even though I don't care what your judgment is. And if at that moment, instead of judging me, you withhold judgment. And more importantly, you tell me something that I could judge about you and I withhold punishment, suddenly we feel closer to each other. We're actually powerless not to feel closer to each other. And so I think the question with this, when am I over sharing is when I'm telling you something you could judge, but then I'm piling on what I think your judgment should be, what I'm basically doing is I'm begging you to judge me, right? So if I tell you, I had a tough childhood, and I don't go into all the details, I give you the chance to ask questions to explore it as you're interested and as applies to you.

The reason why that's going to be really powerful is because I'm going to end up sharing with you, but I'm not going to be telling you, I had a tough childhood, but it's not my fault. You shouldn't judge me for it. It was this person's fault. And my brother's really a jerk. My sister's wonderful. I love her. I'm telling you all the judgments you should have. But my job for vulnerability is just to say, here's something about me that you could judge.

And if I want to invite you to ask questions and withhold judgment. It's so uncomfortable to leave it. Yeah. To leave the space. Because I have people always in there like, wow, that's so much. Thank you for your vulnerability. And to me, second nature, I don't understand how to be without sharing things because I feel alone if I don't. Yeah.

But I understand that that can feel really uncomfortable. comfortable for a lot of people. And I know, like, part of building a healthy relationship with that, again, be at work at friendships, any relationship that you have in life, there does require vulnerability because I love, I love when I'm with a friend and they share something and you're like, no, shit, man. I've known you for six years. And I never knew that like you had that when you were a kid. And then you're like, guess what? So did I. And you're like, no, my God. And it just makes you feel so much more seen and heard because I feel like we have so much judgment at the world and everybody in ourselves are judging and we none of a harm or her. That if, if, you're like, and it's,

we could just stop and just for a second be honest and real. And if it doesn't work for that person, I don't necessarily have to create a narrative about it. That's exactly right. And you know what? It might not work for everyone. You only have to find one person to fall in love with for the rest of your life, right? Good news there. Maybe two or three. But the point being that like, it's not like you have to have this amazing magical connection with every single person you got to date with. You just need to find the one that you have that connection with. And if you go through 10 or 12 or 15 or 100 looking for that one, that doesn't mean your failure. That means you're a good scientist.

You are willing to do the experiments and get the data and figure out who's right for you. 100%. And I think there's a difference between properly communicating your needs, your wants, versus, like, I don't know if you've ever heard this. I've had girls tell me all the time and like, I was guilty of it before a date, right? Before I even go on the date, you'd be like, I'm not sleeping with you, by the way. I'm setting my boundary. And you're like, first of all, you're probably going to. Second, like, it's usually the one.

That's usually what happens. The ones that say they're not. But second of all, to me, I'm always like, what I hear, I don't hear this like empowerment and I'm setting it. What I hear is that you don't necessarily trust yourself and you sure as fuck don't trust me, which why should you? But it sounds like you're trying to tell me something that you're not going to do. I don't know that I believe it. Well, and also doesn't really tell me who you are, right? If you're telling me who you not are, like I don't get to know you.

Now, my guess is that if you're the kind of person who doesn't sleep with someone on the first date, they're going to pick up on it, right? All you do is say no at the end of the night. Yeah, yeah. Or they're going for a kiss and they give you a kiss and a hug and then they turn away. It's not that you have to announce these things about yourself because, again, that's in the mindset of, I really want you to know who I am, as opposed to I want to know who you are. And in doing so, you'll get to know me. I love that. It's really, I love that because it's also coming home to yourself, but being astute, right?

Like, I'm not a big fan of if you say everything, but then you're not watching what they're also doing. Because boundaries are beautiful, but a lot of people don't know how to fucking use them properly. and when you're actually going to set a boundary with somebody, I don't need to say before I go on the date what I'm going to do. What I'll do is, like, your point, I'm going to move away when you do a touch when I'm like, that makes me feel uncomfortable. That person's going to know pretty dang quick.

I'm not doing it. And here's the thing. If you feel you need to announce that, then let me, are they being sexual prior? Okay, so then they're communicating to you what their intentions are. What I find is that we're not listening. That kind of goes back of like we're not believing people when they tell us who they are. Right, right.

And you said something that's, I think, really important, which is you're looking how they react. And there's a whole chapter in supercommunicated. about nonverbal communication, about how we use our bodies to communicate. And you're exactly right, that when we just teach ourselves to pay a little bit of attention, like if I didn't know what this person was saying, if I had to guess what they're feeling based on their body language, what would it be right now? And what we find is that we get very good at picking up on nonverbal communication simply by saying this is a priority. I want to pay attention to it. And it's a really valuable

source of communication. Oh, God, Charles, I can literally talk to you all day. We're going to have you back to talk about more things. I love it. I love it. But if you could, please plug the book. Tell us more about where people can find you, how they can interact with you. Absolutely. So you can find super communicators on, you know, Amazon or any, wherever you buy books, particularly your local independent bookseller is a great place to buy it. And then if folks want to find me, I am at Charlesduhig.com, D-U-H-I-G. I have a substack called the Science of Better where we talk about how to use science to make our lives better. And my email address is Charles at Charles Duhigg.com.

And I read and reply to every email I get from a reader. So I'd love to hear from people. Oh, they will. And we'll have everything linked in the show notes. They can grab the book. But guys, thank you again. Thank you, Charles, for coming. Thanks for having you.

Just giving us so much wisdom, I really hope that this episode's how you will. Me too.