The Sabrina Zohar Show - 155: Why Won’t They Let You In? REAL Avoidant Attachment Truths | In the Trenches with Tom Stroud

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

In this episode, Sabrina sits down with Tom Stroud from Love Is Blind UK to tackle your biggest dating dilemmas—avoidant attachment, emotional intelligence, and why modern dating feels so polarized. They debunk myths like "if he wanted to, he would", discuss texting anxiety, and share personal stories of growth from avoidance to security.Want to submit your questions or profile to the show? Send in your text threads, your profile screenshots, or anything else to [e-mail] for a chance to be featured on a future episode.Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or always chasing validation in dating or relationships, the Self Love Course gives you the tools to rebuild your worth from the inside out HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE!Get Ad free HERE!Want to work with Sabrina? HERE!Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE!Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babes. We're in the trenches this week. Let's fucking go. We're answering your questions. And guess what?

I have Tom Stroud from Love is Blind UK. Don't worry. We don't talk a ton about the show. We talk about you guys. You wrote in. You can send screenshots if you guys want to in the trenches at Sabrinasahehar. But we are here to help. We're going to answer them all and I'm so fucking excited and just grateful for you guys.

Thank you to everybody for reading, reviewing, leaving a comment. And anywhere you listen, Spotify, YouTube, I don't get that shit. Just leave me a heart. Let me know what you think. And if you need anything, I'm here. And guys, big news, big announcement. Now is the time. So at the end of this month, and if you're listening beyond this, sorry about you.

We'll have new things coming. But at the end of this month, we have the self-love, the breakup, and the nervous system course are going to be gone for good. Now, what that means is if you get it now on sale, you'll have lifetime access. So it's not like it's ever going to be taken away, but you won't be able to purchase it beyond the end of the month because new things are coming. I have so many things in the works for you guys, a lot of things that are passion projects of mine that I really wanted to launch. And so now is the time.

So, join the courses if you want them. And if not, welcome to the family. Sit down, have a cup of coffee and let's fucking get into it without further ado. Hey, Tom. Hey, Sabrina. I'm so excited to have you. Thank you. I'm sorry to be here.

Welcome from a very long side of the pond. This was a trip over just for me. Absolutely, just for you. Yeah. So we're going to do a week of filming and then I'm going to go home. It's perfect. It's all we wanted to do. I'm so excited, Dad.

you. We are, guys, today, as always, it's in the trenches, and we're going to answer your questions, and we're going to go into it, and we're going to help you. And the reason I wanted Tom to be here, obviously because I love you and I wanted you here, but because I think you have a lot of great insight to offer. And I think getting a male perspective that's in a different place, in a different country that we can also see that it's the same shit everywhere is going to be really helpful. But before we get into that, I want to know, could you share a little bit about you? And I think your journey is really interesting and fun because I think you had something that the average person doesn't necessarily have in the type of mirror that you had, but I'd love.

love to hear from you. How'd you get here? Sure. All right. Well, look, I mean, I've been dating on enough 25 years, right? I'm 40 this year. And I have an avoidant attachment style. That's something which I came to realize a bit later on in my dating journey. And it was something that had to kind of deal with it. It's like, what we'll talk about today is avoidance, right? But then I was lucky enough to get cast for a show called Love is Blind, which I'm sure you guys all know. Love is Blind, you get. Had an amazing time on it. My storyline was pretty polarizing, you know? It was all about, yeah, like gender roles and this provider mentality versus modern masculinity and all these kinds of big talking points.

And yeah, from that, I ended up sort of interrogating a lot further creating a podcast as well because we love podcasting, which is all about male behavior and dating and relationships, which pulls that stuff apart a lot. And yeah, and I also host a men's group, I have a men's group back home where we sort of talk about this stuff. What have you been seeing? Because I think it's really interesting that even your storyline, right, having to be that polarizing. And like, I do think you got a bad edit, but that's like for another day and another conversation. But I think your story was also really exemplifying a reality that I think a lot of people do need to face is that like it's okay for people to do things differently. It doesn't mean either anybody is right or wrong or good or bad. It just means that maybe you're not compatible.

That maybe the two things that you want, right, don't really go. But I was curious and welcome to my brain. I'm like, God, I had like 17 questions. I'm like, which one do I want to go at first? But I was curious. What are you seeing now in dating after your experiences right now? now being more aware, really seeing things differently. What are you seeing in the dating world right now, being in it?

And what I'm curious, too, like your avoidance, how it manifested in ways. Because I think a lot of people that are listening maybe misunderstand, right? And I didn't really understand what avoidance was or like the lack of understanding. So let's start there. What's dating like? Dayton, certainly, I mean, I host dating events across my city back home. I have a podcast. I do dating Q&As on my Instagram every single Sunday, predominantly for women.

And what I'm seeing more and more and more is that like genders in heterosexual dating are more polarized than they ever have been. Men and women just don't understand themselves. And this is very, very general. But men are kind of retreating into this hole, right, where they're like, I'm not understood by women. I don't know what women want anymore. Am I meant to be the provider and approach first? Or certainly some of the guys that are a bit more, you know, in tune with things like boundaries and now like, is, am I even allowed to approach anymore? And so I think for a lot of guys, they're like, I'm just giving up.

I don't know what I'm meant to bring to the table. And then the flip side is for the women that I, you know, speak to on the pod, the women that I meet at these day and events, they're like, I just want a guy that's going to step up. Yeah. You know, like I want a confident guy. I'm not looking for too much. I don't want six foot blue eyes guy in finance or whatever it is. Like, I just want a guy that's emotionally available.

And so this is it. There's a real challenge here. And a big part of my mission is about better communication, better understanding between the genders. I couldn't agree more. And I think if we're speaking in the heterosexual norms in that way, And then we have the LGBTQ community. And they have the, everybody has their own challenges. Like, I don't think there's anybody that has it easy.

I can say that. But I've noticed as well, like, I mean, obviously I'm not in the dating world directly, but like, I'm in it in a different way. I'm just not fucking, I was in it for long enough to not need to be back into it at this time. But I think what I've really seen is just like, to your point, I don't think anybody knows how to be who to be and we're scared because like, I'll be honest. I was scared to be myself because if I'm myself and that doesn't work, I literally don't know

what else to do. And I'm curious, like, when you were in your heyday of your witness and you noticed, right, like, okay, wow, before you noticed it, one, how was it showing up? Like, what was your modality of handling it? Because I think everybody really is different. And then my next question would be, were you cognizant and aware of the impact that you were having on people. Right. So I love this because my awareness of it came from a quite unusual place. And it was, I was in a relationship with someone for six years, right? We lived together. She was amazing. She was literally the perfect person for me, right? She was like calm, very empathic. Her ability to listen and understand me was incredible. And she spotted my sort of challenges, my issues before I did, right? And

I mean, I won't go over it in a huge amount of data, but my avoidance came from a lot of abandonment as a kid. And I didn't understand the relationship between not having a father and all the kind of male rumours that I had in my life, leaving, disappearing, and how that translated into how I could have a romantic relationship with someone who was her that spotted it because we were perfect on paper but I just wasn't able to give everything to her. I always left a part of myself back. And so when we'd have arguments about more often than not my repetitive behavior, so things like not wanting to talk about difficult moments, particularly around our sex life, my reaction was just, I'm just going to step away from this. It's freaking me out. It's too much of shining too much

of a light on me. And that was the thing that ended up breaking us up. It was me that broke up with her. But it wasn't for any big reason. I just couldn't deal with this pressure that I created for myself in my head. And I remember her saying when we broke up, I hate your dad. I hate him because she could see where that had come from. And I was like, what the hell does that mean? And now, you know, fast forward six, seven years, I can understand it. So yeah, I mean, it was a crazy journey. And from that moment, I then, rather than do, doing the work straight away and a lot of guys will identify with this. I was like, right, I'm single.

This is awesome. I have my freedom, you know? And so I went out and for a couple of years was like going out, shagged all of London, like, heartening. Honestly, there was no stone left unturned. I get that. And then about to fast forward two, three years. And I was like having these two, three months relationships with women and then being like,

they're not right. And I just can't meet the right person. This is something every guy listened to this will identify with. I'm not meeting the right person. Why can't I find them? And then I was like, holy shit, it's not them. It's me. I'm the problem here. And then I just ended up doing a shedload of therapy and a shed load of my own reading. And that sort of brought me to, yeah, the show, really. I appreciate one, the honesty. So thank you for that. But I think the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is because we see the other side of the coin. We see the villainizing of the avoidant.

And everybody that listens knows I am not into villainizing any of the attachment styles because I wouldn't want someone to do that to me personally. And I think though, okay, how do you feel about knowing where you were and being in that space when you hear the term, if you wanted to, he would? I hate it. I despise it because it's like a rule or like, you know, it's this idea that every single man is the same and they're not. And when you look at avoidance, is it 40% I think of men identify as having an avoidant attachment start? It's exactly as as as as saying, I only want a guy six five plus, you know, you're wiping out a huge percentage of men based off something which more often than not isn't their fault. Their fault in it lies in the action in how they behave

and in probably not interrogating it enough themselves. But for a lot of these guys, I mean, we spoke about it just before we started shooting. They don't even know like where it comes from. They haven't done that work. And so big part of my mission is helping guys understand this stuff better and not villainizing it. I was the same even as in the anxious world. I kept going around being like, I just haven't met the right person, right? I just, I can't meet the right person. Nobody wants to commit to me. I had my own narratives. I had my own siren song that I was singing. And it wasn't until I was like, no, girl, it starts and stops with you, right? Like, you need to show up differently. You can't be jumping down someone's throat because

I had a lot of connections that actually probably would have been a lot more beautiful and been able to flourish if I wasn't coming in trying to have certainty and get that exactitudes to the same of the avoidant being like, I need space. I need to keep them in a distance. But I wish more people understood that this isn't from a one, even a conscious place, but not from a place of malice. It's not about trying to hurt other people because I get that question every day of like, don't the avoidance know what they're doing? What is your thoughts to that? Do the avoidance know what they're doing? Absolutely not. And honestly, this, I feel like this term avoidance has become very popularized, thanks to people like me. And it's good to have that level of awareness, right?

But people get it very confused. I hear avoidance and narcissism get confused a lot. And it's like, just because a guy needs to take a bit of time for himself and maybe be selfish, like we all are. That is not narcissistic behavior. No, and I need the other side of the story too, because my next question is, okay, and how was I showing up? Because I've had men be like, I need space, I need space for me. And it's like, yeah, because I was calling him a ton. I was texting him a ton. My anxiety was through the fucking roof.

I wasn't self-soothing. And again, it's not that I was wrong and he was right. But it's also about going, I played a part. I wasn't woe as me victim. Oh, God, they all keep doing this to me. I had to take ownership of how I was showing up. That's very different than if I were dating a guy, like I had dated a guy before I met Ryan, and when I would ask him just even something basic of just like a simple,

I like, hey, do you want to talk about that? Shut down. And you're like, okay, I was able to remove myself going, I didn't do anything here. Like, if you're going to shut down simply because I ask like an emotion or a feeling, then I'm not going to own that. Verses things were going really well and I wouldn't stop. and it was beating this person down, then yeah, maybe that guy might need a day. No one's right or wrong, but it's about like what are both people doing to stay present in this

relationship and not disconnect consistently out of safety. Yeah, exactly that. And what I'd add to that would be like, fucking again, all this stuff, like we're speaking so much cliches when it comes to dating. But like communication is so important. And I don't mean talking to each other, like you're meant to talk to each other. We need to each other, right? But what I mean about that is, I mean, I use this expression all the time, like radical candor. being totally honest with that person, even if you're worried that you're going to hurt their feelings.

So if you're an avoidant and you are saying to a partner who you know adores you, wants to spend every waking minute with you, which I've never had, but I'm sure it's lovely, you have to say to that person, I need X, Y and Z, I need a couple of days out of this, or I need some space when I get back from work tonight. You know that's going to hurt their feelings, but you say it anyway. Because it's for the longer term, it's for the benefit of both of you and the health of your relationship. and equally for an anxiously attached person, you know, it's about saying, like, I know you're going out tonight.

I want to be absolutely clear that that's going to make me feel quite alone, and that's because of maybe the people that you're going out with, and I know it's irrational, but I just need to tell you how I feel. Because ultimately, if you don't say, it's just going to build resentment, and then it's going to explode. Like, it's really that simple. People sometimes will hear me ask Ryan or say things to Ryan. They're like, you say that to him.

It's like, yeah, and he loves that shit. He loves the honesty because both of us, first of all, Why am I going to hide things from my partner? Baby, you'll cry now or you'll cry later, right? Like, you get to choose. And when you self-abandoned, the crying is a lot more painful than it is if you just acknowledge, I don't think this person can hang out. There's a difference between, like, you don't be an asshole.

I'm not going to go up and be like, by the way, you look stupid today. T, T.T.Y.L. No. But if something really bothers me, like the other day, it was something in the moment, and I was, his friends were over. And they were both sitting there. And it's like, you know, when you're in public, you're trying to have decorum. And Ryan's like very, very task like.

If he's on a task, get it done. He doesn't really understand. He doesn't see the outside world. And we're working on that. And I had something sticky on my hands and he was washing the dishes. So I came up to like kind of throw my hands under. And he had like a bit of a temper tantrum. Like he like stomped.

And he was like, I'm washing this. And I just looked at him and I was like, okay. And he was like, oh, there's soap now. And like in front of his friends. And I was just like, okay. I'll talk about this after. And I didn't say anything. And then later, I just kind of looked at him and I said, hey, can I share something with you?

And he was like, yeah, what's up? He was trying to be all cute. And I said, I don't want to ruin this moment because it is nice to reconnect with you. I said, but I'm going to be honest, it's not that you're not allowed to tell me that you want me to wait a minute. I was like, that's never the problem. I respect the fact that you're in the middle of the dishes. I said, but it's the way you said it's the way you said, you act like a petulent child. You stomped your foot.

You literally gave me an attitude. And I was like, and I said, that's okay that you want that. I said, but speak to me like an adult and I will accept it like an adult. And he just looked and he was like, that's a very fair play. He was like, you're right. I didn't speak to you in the way that you deserve. then we were able to high five, move on, kiss, move on with the day. There was no resentment.

There was no anger. If I kept that in. Exactly. That's it, right? We all know what that would have looked like. And also, right, this is a thing about tone. You can say things in different ways and they mean the same thing, but come across very differently. And so if he is now, Ryan's a great guy, but if he then just works off that moment, is like, right, I don't need to speak to Sabrina in that way anymore.

I can speak to her in a different way. Still get my point across, but completely changed the dynamic of our relationship. Like that's just easy. It's learning. 100%. And that's why even like the whole everybody does something different. Yes, that's why texting is different. And also texting has no tone.

We have got to say, what are your thoughts on the texting and dating shit? Because you know I will die on this hill of texting and dating is like kind of ruining romance in that regard. But like what do you think of if a guy doesn't text you every day, it's because he doesn't like you? Oh, again, I mean, it's very, very dependent on the person and the dynamic of your relationship. And also, I guess like the precedent which has been set, like I think. There is some logic in saying if a guy comes on super, super strong, right? Or if it works the other way around, then you've got constant texting and then it sort of starts to dry up a little bit. That might be an indication that maybe the interest is waning. But equally, I love it when I am dating someone and they're like,

set some boundaries. Hey, I'm really busy. I can't text you every single hour. I might just draw your text at the end of the day. I'm like, that is awesome because I love independence and a partner. I think that's really attractive when they're able to set those boundaries early on. There's a difference between a change in behavior, right? If you've set the precedence and what happens, it's a dopamine, right? Then your body is like craving more. And then when you don't get it, intermittent reinforcement starts to set in. And then it's like, well, now we're like off the rails.

But I think, you know, I remember when I first met Ryan, he set the boundary. He's like, I don't text every day. That's not an interest of mine. He's like, I have no problem. Like, I'll take. I'll call you. I'll face time you. But I see this every day of, well, he didn't text me or I'll get the like, the dates are amazing.

Everything's fantastic. But he's dry in between texts. And I'm like, go off the date. Like, that's real. It's like, that's the person. That's the person. The texting is the version of who you're making them because I've had some friends that are shitty texters and in person, I'm like, you're fucking awesome. But I gave them a tone or I created that or half the time they're doing Siri and they're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about. But I'm glad we could debunk a few of these fucking, I think, frankly speaking myths that are keeping people single for longer than they need to be.

Totally agree. Shall we answer some questions? Let's do it. All right. So, hi, Sabrina. First off, I want to say how much I appreciate. By the way, I don't read these prior. So this is our first. I fuck up. I swear. This is a right. I appreciate it. I said. Lovely in the last episode. That hasn't even come out yet. I used to be avoided in my last relationship and you've helped me get through that. I've been a lot better. Okay, now to my question. It's been a long time since I've liked someone. So I was super excited when I matched with someone and we hit it off. There are issues, though. He lives an hour and 45 minutes away, which isn't a big deal for me, but it is for him. It's too long of a distance

for him to come see me during the week and his weekends are always busy. We've been talking for two months, but he won't carve out any time for us to spend time together, or if he mentions picking a date, he never falls through. He also never seems to know what his plans are until the day of. We met once, but it was my idea. I had a great time and thought meaning again would give him a kick in the ass, but it didn't. He keeps saying that we'll hang out, but I don't want believe him. I really feel anxious and needy, constantly craving reassurance. I know I should break it off, but I'm stuck thinking, what if he gets better with time? What are your thoughts? How do I get the strength to let go of someone I'm attracted to? Thank you, Elena. Go on. What do you think?

Like, why? Why are you creating this fantasy where you can try and save or change someone? I don't understand that. The distance, it works for some people, but only if you are prepared to commit a significant amount of your free time to seeing that person. This person is not, right? So every single signal is telling you this. Probably not. There's not a huge amount of intent from him. I think the person that sent this question knows the answer to it. The answer is in the question. Yeah, exactly. I was going to say, the reality versus the fantasy is what I'm looking at here. The reality that he's showing is he's not showing. up. He won't pick a date. He was your idea. He's not coming through. He's not following through. You don't trust him. It's like, okay, so that's all the stuff. Then what I see is the fantasy and the projection of, oh, no, no, no, but I get that. I've been there of like, oh, but if he just sees me, then he's going to really like me. And really where I see that is like that to me is the disconnection between the parts, right? Between being like a 15-year-old girl, being like, oh, maybe my dad will realize that, like, I am a better kid if I act well or if I do this or maybe if I just do this, then they're going to like me without looking at the reality because at least for me,

and I know for a lot of people, that disassociation like with that limerent kind of fantasizing versus being in the present moment is because being in the present moment, especially as a kid, is really difficult to accept that those are your parents. It's easier to fantasize about the life that you could have and where you could go because that saves you from where you're at and then you don't have to deal with this. The problem is the reality is, not even just the problem. The reality is for this guy to change this behavior, what's involved? I mean, it's not going to happen. And not on that person's behalf.

Like it's not. You have to change for yourself. And so that's it, really. And it's said with a lot of love too. Like both of us, neither one of us want anybody to waste their fucking time and to be in something that seems futile. And if we were really anxious and needy, constantly craving reassurance. Yeah, because this guy's not offering you any fucking safety. Exactly.

This guy's offering you nothing besides keeping narratives in your head and you're creating a version of it. You meant this person once? Yeah, exactly. Right. To your fantasy versus reality point, sometimes it's easier. And I say this again with love. to buy into a fantasy than it is to actually have the cold hard reality. And the cold hard reality is, like, you're probably going to need to meet someone that's

going to meet your needs. It's that simple. And I would say, too, like, I would take out, like, old school, piece of paper and a fucking pen. And I would sit down and literally write, what do I know to be true about this person? Right. Not what do I like about them? Because I like the fantasy.

What do I know to be true about this person? Or maybe make that a line. And it's like, because I could sit there and be like, oh, my God, they're so nice. What makes them so nice? What do I know to be true and factual? You know what makes them not nice bailing on me? You know what makes them not nice? The fact that it's always my idea that they won't carve any time.

Here's a funny thing. There is nobody busier than someone that's not interested. Because you know it's funny. Homeboy has no problem. His weekends are always so busy, but he's not prioritizing you to fit you into his schedule. Honestly, there are CEOs going on dates to Coldplay concerts with hot women. You know, if they can make time, he can make time. He can make time.

That's the difference. Okay, so this is where if he wanted to, he would. This is where I understand the saying of the simplicity of it. Of like, he obviously is not interested. I don't know that want necessarily is why it might not. We don't know what's going on with this guy. We don't know if maybe like a lot of the times too. It is really sad.

But like I've spoken to the men that do this. And like one, they're like wildly unaware that the other person might even be thinking this much about them because they're like, I had met this person once. But on top of it, they a lot of the times are like dealing with their own shit of like, I have an ex that I'm dealing with or something. And I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not like condoning it and being like, oh, yeah, give him a free pass. But what I'm saying is we don't know the situation. We don't know the why. So let's not try to pretend and try to figure it out because this person's not giving you anything to help you figure it out. Exactly. I would also say again with love. If it's only one day, that person doesn't really need to justify it. Like it's only one day, right? And so, but again, it's that fantasy thing. And people get really caught up in that, I think sometimes. When you just get that flood of dopamine, when you meet someone amazing, you create a story before there's stories have been started being told, you know? I have the webs I've weeded. I've thought of vacations.

I've thought of future kids. Like, things that are just obscene because, like, you're just going off in this fantasy. And it's so fun because when I read all the books and I get to create this world of the life I'm going to live because it's not about them. It's what it gives me. Exactly. It's what it takes me from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it almost dehumanizes the person on the other side of the relationship because you're not expecting human behavior, flawed behavior, expecting perfect behavior.

And I will say, at the end of the day, this is where I would say, what are your. choices? What are your choices because your choices are, yeah, you can keep engaging with this person. You can also walk away. You can also say, hey, well, I think you're really lovely. I'm looking for more intentionality. And I think this is a big, I was having a conversation with my friend the other day, just about we don't need to villainize just because it doesn't work. Right? It can be, hey, this person's not giving me the energy that I need. That's okay. I have so many guys. People ask me all the time, you didn't block him. I got a ghost or reach out. A guy that I, we got on a couple of dates. We hooked up. It was like one of those things. And we were chatting,

chatting, chatting, texting, texting, texting, texting, texting. And I had found out some stuff. He had a substance abuse of problem. And I had had a sneaking suspicion. So when he did ghost, I kind of wasn't really shocked because when I found it after and I was like, you know, I moved on with my life. It was like, almost three years later and he messaged me, this whole apology thing. Wow. And people were asking like, you didn't block him.

And I was like, why would I block? I didn't have any. I wasn't angry with him. I understood he has this a shit. Because that's when I knew I was growing. When I didn't have to internalize their behavior and make it mean anything about me, I was just able to go, well, that doesn't work for me. Yeah. Oh, no, thank you.

Oh, but that's, honestly, if you can get to that point, then you are smashing it. You're doing well. Honestly. It's hard. Right, it is. Took me years. Can I tell you a little story about my audience, which I realized literally over the last couple of days? So in L.A., there is somebody, I'm not going to call it by her name, but somebody who I met a couple of years ago when I was in Lisbon.

Awesome girl. And for whatever reason, over the next couple of years, it's not worked out. She's been seeing people. I've been seeing people. She broke up with her partner fairly recently, and we were both buzzing because I was going to come to L.A. right and I'm an avoidant so I want you to remember that people listening watching we made some plans right which was the minute I was going to get off the plane I was going to drive to where I'm staying and then we're going to grab a drink immediately because we're so excited about seeing each other so anyway

get to LAX pick up the high car get to my house message her no response and what's going on two hours later to get a response sorry I fell asleep I had a really heavy night last night I'm like that's cool you know I think maybe some communication would have been nice she says what are your plans tonight. So I'm really jet lagged. My dream night would be maybe you and I just get an early drink and then get an early night. She's like, that's cool. I'm seeing some friends later, so it works perfectly. Don't hear from her again for another couple of hours. Get a mess from her at half eight. She's like, I'm so sorry. It took me ages to get ready. Kind of shitty excuse. Oh, come on. The reason I'm telling this story, there's a second part to it is because as an

avoidant man, my inclination is not to call her out. It's to be like, I don't care. Like, yeah, fine. You do what you want. I've got a really busy schedule as well. Did not have a busy schedule. You sat out of the apartment by myself crying. Anyway, but she's like, as we spoke about, I've got the whole of Sunday free. We've spoken about going for a hike up Runyon, Canyon. Yeah. So I was like, awesome.

Let's just call it a night and then we can spend the day together tomorrow. Wake up the next morning, fresh as a daisy. She mess with me at 10. She's like, hey, just a heads up. I'm going to a drag brunch today at 1. Fine. But I can meet you straight afterwards. And I was like, that's cool.

Let me know. But also in my head, I'm like, we may plans to spend the whole day together today. If you've now got a drag brunch, whatever, avoid a man, didn't call her out about it. Goes to drag branch, don't hear from her to 5. I spend the day by myself, drove down to Malibu. Had a lovely day. At 5, I get back and I'm like, text her, what is your ETA and what's the plan tonight? Because she's kind of been fucking around.

Don't hear from her till 8pm. And I literally, that was the point where I was like, I just need to step up to this. So I left her voice now and I was like, hey, you've been super disrespect for my time, you haven't communicated properly. I'm only here for a week and you've made me basically change our plan for a whole day. It's really unfair. And she hadn't seen my point of view on it. But what I'd say to anyone out there is like that kind of conflict is difficult to say,

but it's a good thing. It's necessary because I was getting annoyed for you as I was listening to this being like, okay, there's the human, right? There's the human of, hey, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Can we change the time? Like there are human moments of I've had that of like, hey, you know, I had to cancel a date 30 minutes before because I had a work thing.

And the guy got mad at me and you're like, all right, cool, no thank you. We're allowed to have people be humans. Absolutely. But I think, like you said, it's the kind of same of this of like, how long are you going to let someone lace your time for? Because you could have kept going and people pleasing and playing small of like, okay. Yeah, yeah, you do you. But you're saying, well, then your life matters more than mine. And I think we're equal in what matters and who's important here.

Exactly that. I was like, why is your time more important than my time, you know? And that was it. And she could actually, once I'd laid it out to her, she was very much like, I'm so sorry. I actually see your perspective now. And, you know, she ended up coming over last night, didn't stay over just to hang out. And it was cool. And we've set up a date for this week and it was good.

And even my avoidance, like, prior to it, if it was a few years ago, my response would have been like, I'm not fucking seeing it again. Yeah. No chance. She does it again. Yeah. Then that's that. It's like, I think then you know to close the chapter.

Exactly. I think people are allowed to be people and it's about the communication. Ryan's done some stuff before. Like, he fucked up Valentine's Day. Right. And like, was I going to fucking hang him to the cross? It's like, no, we had the communication about it. And we moved on with our fucking day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Let's get to another question. And then I want to do a profile. Sorry about that ramble. No, I love the ramble. Let's see. Let's see that guys.

I love the ramble. Yeah. Give me a follow up if you're like, and... Right. We're not getting married. Yeah. See you in Love is Blind season two. All right.

So I've been a huge fan of your work. Listen to nearly all your episodes. I completed your foundation course, which is beyond incredible. I love the foundation course. Thank you for creating such a valuable resource. Guys, go join now. Beyond that, I've read almost every book of your guest. Can't we each word and it's finished.

Oh, they're the fucking best. Is this person called Sabrina Zoh. Is it me? Spend time with the discomfort and immersed myself journaling and self-reflecting. I'm fucking proud. Okay, here's why I'm at now. I am dating a kind and emotionally available guy, Justin, since this summer. He checks about 80% of the important boxes and meets my non-negotiables.

He respects my boundaries, gives me space to heal, is patient, let's be me, me, communicates much better than any men I've dated in the past and is open to growing in that area. Ah, sign me up. It's a big contrast to the toxic relationship by they recently left, which taught me many overdue lessons. My struggle is this. I've always been drawn to emotionally and available partners, and now I'm unsure how to navigate a relationship with someone emotionally available. I get it. I'm also not physically attracted to Justin, and despite giving it time, the chemistry hasn't sparked. And I'm not referring to the bad spark that I've learned that is the avoidant, that is more avoidant, anxious struggle. I recall an episode where one of your guests shared how she wasn't initially attracted to her partner, but as the relationship deepened, so did her feelings. I'm one if that could be the case for me if I'm forcing something that isn't here. I'm also in a weird spot because I typically had many of all of my anxious attachment behaviors and all my past relationships, and now I feel like I'm leaning towards more.

more towards avoid an attachment, not having an attachment personality disorder, so to speak. It's a very new thing for me. I'm usually the one wanting to rush things and now I feel okay maintaining my life while incorporating a healthy-paced relationship. No, bitch, that's called growth. My question is this.

How do I tell if the issue is my own discomfort and receiving emotional availability, if I need more time alone, or if Justin simply isn't my person? I feel like I'm missing something by potentially walking away from somebody who is really great. I'd love your insight on this

for any possibly in the crunches, warmly Kristen. Wow. I love this. Kristen has done the work. Yeah, she has. They clearly understand their own brain. But when you were reading it out, my natural inclination is to say, like, well, think about some of those childhood experiences, like those triggers, like what were the male wrong orders that you had like?

You know, were they people that made you feel naturally anxious? And is that then given you a mentality where that's how men are meant to act? And if they don't act like that, that makes you feel uncomfortable, you know? Yeah. Because that's normally where a lot of that stuff comes from. But you can't take a broad brush approach to this stuff. Like, there are a bunch of different reasons. Honestly, when I'm here and here, I'll be honest, like, as I'm reading this, I think there's a difference between healthy equals boring, meaning you're not activated, meaning you're not up and down.

My mama used to ask me with Ryan, she was like, if he would ignore you for a day, would you be more into him? And I was like, shut up, Helen. Versus I'm bored with this person, right? Like, I have had that. That was, I remember, because, like, when I first met Ryan, he was a little boring at first. Like, you can see, he's just, like, more closed off. But I kept seeing glimmers where I'm like, oh, he's really funny. Or, like, he has a super goofy side.

And I was like, where the fuck is that chained and hidden and locked in the depths of this person? And so for me, it was, I need to get to know him better. But the sex was fun. Like, we were having fun. We were laughing. Like, it wasn't like I was leaving being like, oh, I can't wait to get home. That was always my inclination. If I'm on the date with you and I keep looking at my clock or I'm thinking I'd rather

be home with the dog or I can have my toy and take care of myself, then I'm not into this. And when I'm hearing here is like, I'm really proud of her for stopping and saying, I want to make sure I'm understanding this and like being real with myself and not jumping into he's not for me. But I would say a couple of things. One, you're not actually turning avoidant. That's not how there's a common misconception that the pendulum will swing and you go from super anxious and now all of a sudden you're super avoidant. Oftentimes what we see is that means that like you're now, when we look at the nervous system ladder, if you're going from safety into sympathetic and then you're going into dorsal, you're shutting down, which means we need to move you back up to the ladder to get to that safety. there's a difference between that versus, like she said, I'm okay.

I like having my own life. I'm feeling like I'm a healthy-paced relationship. I don't know that you're going avoidant. I think you're maybe waking up. That's how I would interpret a security. Yeah, I was like, that's more secure. Yeah, but maybe they're so used to feeling that anxiety and what comes with that anxiety is like, the fireworks, the unpredictability, and that becomes normal.

Yeah. So maybe this is just a secure attachment to someone that, yeah, frankly, is an awesome guy. I think she's forcing it. I do. I see after hearing this, I'm like, I get it. I know you're trying and I like, my heart goes out to like give it an old college try. But for me, when the intimacy component, when I'm not even like wanting to remotely fuck you, we're friends at that point.

That's what differentiates me from wanting to be in a relationship with you versus being a friendship. Yeah. Are we physical? Honestly, I've been in this situation before whereby I'm like, right, I've done the work now. Like I deserve to have this very, very sort of like placid, secure relationship. And sometimes you can get confused and caught up on that. And I've dated people who like on paper have been perfect. It's super respectful, funny, kind.

Just don't have the thing with them. And that's okay. Like, not everyone is going to, you're not going to have that with everybody. And that's okay to admit. I met a lot of people that were great. We just, it was like, you're cool. You're great. Healthy doesn't mean you just need to settle.

Doesn't mean you just take them because you're like, oh, he's consistent. It's like, no, no, no. You're allowed to say, oh, he's consistent. He's great. Okay, so this is what I want in a partner, but I also want somebody that makes me laugh a lot, that we could talk for hours or that doesn't talk, right? For Ryan, that's probably what he wants and he got me. But you know what I mean.

What I'm hearing is another one of those like answers in the question in the sense of I think if we're being honest with ourselves. I also look at the narrative in the story. It'd be one thing if she was like, I just don't believe anybody else is for me and I've never met the one and maybe he's, then I'd say this sounds like anxiety, but she sounds pretty clear. She sounds pretty level headed of like, am I just looking for something that doesn't exist? And it's like, you're right, I don't want you to have a spark. I want you to have an ease. Or it flows and you feel really like even the hard conversations don't feel as hard. That's how it feels with Ryan. where the hard conversations aren't the end of the world, and I feel comfortable, but I also want to fuck this person. Yeah, exactly, exactly. This whole settling thing is something I hear a lot of at the dating events that I go to from women in particular. That they don't want to settle? Yeah, well, they're like, there are so little, so few good men out there. I'm tempted to compromise on what I'm looking for. And I don't know what to say to them.

Honestly, I'd love your perspective on it because my response is like, they are out there. Like, you will know this better than I will. Like, figure out where your non-negotiables are and figure out whether any of those. are the things that you thought when your non-negotiables are actually negotiable, six foot plus. Would you date a guy as 5-11

if everything else was great? Yes, probably. Then it's not a non-negotiable, is that? Where we want to look at with settling is, is it morals, ethos ethics, right? Like, I am not, if I morally believe in something and this person believes in murder, okay, well, then we're probably not going to align

because I'm settling to be with somebody that clearly doesn't fit. Versus I thought, you know, and I get it, I thought I was, like, I grew up in a household of like men take care of everything. Men are the, like that was my dad, right? He was the provider and it was men take care of you and you don't need to take care of your, like you need to make your own money, but let somebody take care of you.

And then now I have a partner that works for my company. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, wait, that goes completely against the, I'm not settling because it's like, sure, you know what? I could. I could go out and say, I only want the millionaire guy. And it's like, okay, you're going to have to give up other things about what you like about him and what you want to get that. Yeah.

That's okay. Maybe he's a little older. Maybe he's a little this. whatever it is, but you're going to have, there's a price to pay. It's a pie chart versus am I settling because, well, he's nice. And you're like, yeah, but you don't hike your conversations. You're bored when this person's in the room. You can't wait to leave.

And it's like, don't settle just because they're there. Yeah, exactly. That's the difference for me. All right. We'll do a profile and then I'll end with a quick rapid fire. Okay. So here is Joe's profile. And so you guys will be watching.

You'll be seeing what we see. So we're going to go through each one. And then before we discuss it, I want you to give me one beat. So I'm going to show you this first because the first time either of us are seeing this. So we have the first photo. Guess how many takes this took? Yeah. Then we have that photo.

Then we have my greatest strength. I'm not afraid to apologize or admit to making a mistake. We have that. Unusual skill. I hug books and fold my socks. And then we have this. Then we have guess where this photo was taken. We have another.

How to pronounce my name. It's Joe, J-O, not J-O-E, not J-O-E. It's two letters. J-O. You could do it. Okay. Name three things you remember about this profile. The spelling thing was weird.

because that's not how you pronounce it, that's how you spell it. Those spellings all say J. So I got a bit caught up in that. Okay. What else do you remember? What do you remember about her profile on her? The good stuff, like the memorable stuff. No, no, anything.

Three things. What do you remember about Joe? Besides how to spell it, J.O. I just did it. Besides that her name is not Joe. I apologize. I remember that her first photo was her looking a bit outdoorsy and tracking. Okay.

Which was kind of cool, wouldn't have it as a first photo. Okay. Because that's your entry point into that profile. Yep. What else did you remember? That was it. So, okay, thank you. And that's my point of a profile is you have seconds to make a memorable moment and you don't remember anything besides the misspelling of her name.

And the fact that the first photo wasn't great. Yeah. The first photo being your back and nature, I've seen nature. I've seen nature plenty of times. I don't need to see you in nature. Well, so that's an interest, right? And sadly, the role of photographs in the dating app is to make you look attractive to the person. Put it in your interest.

Put it in your interest. The second one, same thing is like, we have a lot of selfies or they see me, like a lot of just like, like kind of head shots. Selfie, selfie and then non-selfies. So we have, out of all of them, we have, I think, like, three to six are selfies. Yeah. Too many selfies. I agree.

Too many selfies. You're beautiful. I can't really tell. Like, I can see bits and bobs, but I have no, like, I love a full body. I appreciate the full body. We have one, but again, it's a selfie that's closed. And then that's it. So I would say the photos, none of them are like the most ideal photos that I've ever seen.

You're too beautiful for me to not be able to see. I agree with that. I think my thing about photos I'm dating. A lot of the time people are like, oh, if you have really nice, almost professional-looking photos, it looks like you made too much effort and it's not authentic enough. I think get the best quality photos you can get because ultimately that is your front page. That's your, it's like a sales tactic, right? Sadly, and, you know, I would never get cringed out of someone a beautiful photos.

No, and I will be honest, there is nothing in here that is getting to know you. Okay, so you say that you hug books and fold socks, it's like, okay, I don't know that that's an unusual skill. Yeah. I don't think what's unusual, it's not a skill, that's just a preference. You hug books and you fold your socks. Which is wonderful. That's fine. I ball them up, you know?

How am I getting to know you? What about that makes me go, I need to date, J-O. See, I got, I did it. J-O. J-O. And then same, my greatest strength, I'm not afraid to apologize or to admit it making a mistake. It's like, so you take ownership.

Yeah. Okay, great. So, that's good. I'm glad you take ownership. What about you? This is it, right? Can we see your profile? Yeah, I'm happy to.

Let's see it. Right. Let's see an example. Roast me out. Let's go. This is my first time seeing it. I'm never done this before. I'm excited.

I'm excited because I think auditing profiles. So Ryan and I do this like as a service, like people can send theirs in and purchase it so we give it private. But we have had so many people that are like, holy shit, I did not expect you guys to lay in on me like that in like a good way. They're like, thank you for all of the feedback because it's like we want, I've read one guy right back and he was like, I haven't gotten any matches though. And we're like, yeah, but that's the point.

It's like you weren't getting quality matches. So we're weeding people out so you don't waste your time. I can't control the people that are going to come, but I can control how you show up. Right, exactly. Honestly, go hard. Okay. Go real hard. All right.

There's some really cringe stuff on that, but hey. Okay, so we've got first photo. Okay, my biggest date fail, getting catfish by a 50-year-old Ecuadorian man called Haldo. Yeah, that's Lous, right? I have a good lucky guy. Okay, then we have your second photo. We've got Sonny's photo, which you're going to have to send these to me so we can have them pop up. The key to my heart is dad jokes.

Ask me about what I think about windmills, big fan. Big fan. Did you get it? Of course I do. Bad dad joke. Okay, then the next one, let's debate this topic, is Love Truly Blind. Okay. Just ring it out of that.

I, as I can get. I was going to say, my only feedback, I actually really like your prompts because it gives me a lot to talk about. Yeah, exactly. Is Love really blind? Because if people have no idea, you're like, okay, this is going to be a fun conversation. That's what I like. And then I love the dad jokes. This is like that.

I can be like, okay, because I have one. I will say, though, this. I actually don't know anything about you, though. Right. I don't know any, Mr. Avoided. I don't know anything about you. I don't know anything about you. I only know that you got catfished.

I know that you like dad jokes. I know that love his wine, right? But I don't actually know anything about who Tom is. Your first photo can be so much better because here's the thing. I look going, which one is he? And then I don't want to have to scroll down to find out you're the ugly one. Yeah, that's bad. I'm saying.

I'm saying what everybody wants to. I mean right in the solar plexus. I know. I would say the suit photo actually you're more attractive in person than that photo. I would say lead with either you and Ben, love Ben. I would lead with either the beach photo. That's a really flattering one or the. that photo, the one of you leaned up against.

That one I get the most like some. That one I would lead with because I can see full body. I can see that you're fit. Like I can see what we're dealing with and add more about you. So this about me thing is interesting, right? Because there are two schools of thought to this. And I'm like, right, this is going to show that I have a bit of personality, that I'm a funny guy and also to J.O's profile.

There are things you can jump off quite easily in fine, right? There are conversation fodder. Yeah, like, what's your favorite dad joke? Or I also got catfish by an Ecuadorian man called Alde. You know? Who knows? Where are you going to go with this thing? Because that's the problem.

It's like, so they go, what's your favorite dad joke? I can give you mine. What do you call a pile of cats? Don't know. A mountain. Mountain. Oh my God, that's so funny. Also, I love hiking.

Well, but you see, that's the thing. The onus is then back on to you to keep the conversation going. That's why we always are like, when we're talking about prompts, is you want it to be able to feel where it could be back and forth where you're not like an ADHD kid being like, what do you call a pile of cats, a mountain? You like hiking? And you're like, wait, what? How did you, are you me?

That is such a Sabrina's response. You're hiking, mountains are awesome. Mountain Jew, have you tried? It's amazing. It's all of it. I can just go off. That would be my only feedback because I feel like you could clean house. If people saw you, it's just, I think, lead with a more flattering photo.

You are so much more handsome than that. I'm going to change it because I'm going to get that. Oh, yeah, no, we're going to. Oh, no, we and Ryan over dinner. We're going to talk about it. All right. Rapid fire. You ready?

Let's end the episode with this. Okay. Can guys pick up? And these are audience questions. So you guys know, I didn't make this up. You guys wrote these in. Follow the Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram if you guys want to write in more because I do question boxes for our guests. So can guys pick up on the worry if the woman is running out of time because we want to have children? 100%. Yes. And that's why you see a lot of guys, particularly guys my age, day and younger. Like, sorry, brutal, but it's true. Yeah. I was going to say, ah, it's like anxiety. I used to think I was hiding it. I wasn't walking hiding it. I think I'm hiding it now and I'm not. Come on. Let's get real. And it's not in a negative.

or a positive way. It's funny. My brother, he'll turn 403 this year. Fuck, he's getting old. Fuck. Anyways. And I remember asking him once I was like, you know, what is your age group on dating apps? And he was like, I go up to 34. And I was like, why not beyond? And he was like, because I don't want to waste anyone's time. He's like, I don't want kids right now. And I'm very clear. And he's like, and almost every single woman, unless it's explicitly stated on her profile says, I want children. He's like, and I have more respect for that than anything. I don't want to waste it. And so I would say, be very real. If you want kids, don't hide it. Because. Because then my business partner, he one day, I swear on my life, he turned 40 and he called me one day, my old business partner. And it was his 40th birthday and he called me the next day and he was like, I'm ready deaf kids. And he went out with a woman. Both of them were like, I'm ready. I'm ready.

They both liked each other. Got married within eight months. Now they have three kids. Good on them. And it was because they were both like taxi cab, right? The yellow theory that when someone's ready, that when your proximity and timing matter. Totally. I've had incredible connections in the past.

I wasn't in the right place. Yeah. I got asked this last week on my Instagram. And I buy into it so much. I do. You know, because it works both ways, right? I've been with amazing people that if I was with it, not that I think you should have regrets. If I was with that person now, it would be a forever kid's family thing.

Yeah, it's just wasn't the right timing. That doesn't mean I have to go back and try to change it. That means I can accept it and move on. Okay. How to tell if a shy guy is interested or just being polite? I mean, just communication. Like, if you think he's a shy guy, just ask him. You can ask someone in a certain way about intent, right?

Like, I always say, should there be a male fee? female dynamic? Is it up to him to wait until he expresses his interest? Why not say, hey, we've been hanging out a bit. You know, I do have some romantic feelings towards you. I just wondered if they're reciprocated or not. Yeah, or of like, I'm struggling to read this. Are you shy or are you just being, am I misreading this that this is more romantic than it is? Whatever it is, I respect it. I had that. I had a guy I was friends with and he was kind of as a shy guy like the group and I couldn't read it. We hung out like three or four times and like there was a sexual chemistry but I didn't know if there was and I was single at the time. And one day I

remember we were supposed to meet up and I called him and I was just like, hey, I said, this is going to determine this because he was like, let me, you want to take me to the hospital. It was like a whole thing. I think I needed to go somewhere and I needed like an emergency. And I was like, because I had my neighbor that was going to take me. And I said, this is going to determine. I was like, are we romantic or are we just friends? And he was like, I see you as more a friend. I said, great. Then don't worry. I'll see you tomorrow. I'll have my room. I said, I'll have my neighbor take me. I don't need you to take me. I was like, you don't need to where you're at. I was like, if we were dating, yes, I think I'd lean more on you. And then from there

we were like then it was out in the open and we could move on with our lives. Well, exactly. But can I just say people get so caught up in that and they're like, right, I don't want to ruin our friendship by admitting that I have romantic feelings. You're doing the right way and the right tone to say the right thing and have no impact either way. And there's also a reality of like, it's also okay if you're like, I can't be friends with them. If I have romantic feelings for the time being, it doesn't mean forever. You could be for a couple of bills like, hey, whoa, I realize I'm having feelings. Like, I need to remove myself and I'll be back.

Exactly. That doesn't mean it has to be, but like allow both of you to have the space. Right. All right. What do you think of a profile that says searching for long-term relationships and fun casual dates? So this is something that guys get vilified all the time. Whereas like looking for long-term, short-term also okay or like, where's that effect? And I hear women all the time saying, why does he want something casual? Like, shouldn't he be committed to long time? It is possible to have a fleeting, amazing experience with someone and it not be a forever thing. That's okay. Let's just normalize that stuff. I got yelled at for making a video about that. Really? of not everyone. Some people are in your life for a good time, not for a long time. And saying, like, I've been in a time where I wasn't in a place that it was at the mental capacity. And people were like, yeah, we're using people. Like, do you think I was aware of it at the time? I had no idea. But we had a good time. And both of us parted ways. And it didn't need to me more.

Sometimes it really is just like, this was really fun. You're not my person. But thank you for this great. You can be looking for your forever person and still have fun. Like, they're not mutually exclusive. Because here's a spoiler alert. There are a lot of people. profiles for women that say they want casual, as if like only men want casual. And I'm like, there are a lot of women that want casual too. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think everybody can have their fun and their life just be honest about it. Exactly. And that, yeah. Can I just say one thing like my whole thing is about like, right, let's improve the relationship to men. Men need to stop vilifying women that are looking for something casual as if it's dirty or shameful because it's not. If we were all more honest about our intention, it would make the whole dating seems so much easier. And same thing. I say with the women to the men in this regard for talking

heterosexual norms. Again, you know, include whatever the male to male in the gay community, female to female, they to they. But I think something as well is like women villainize and vilify guys of like, he's 43 still figuring it out. And it's like, you don't know his story. Maybe he just got divorced and as three kids and is trying to figure out what the fuck he wants in his life. Maybe this guy's parent just passed away. And he was realizing that here's the beauty of it. You just keep scrolling. You don't have to figure that you can just say, no, thank you. I only want to match with people. That's the beautiful thing about boundaries. Great. All right. How do you meet people in real life? Any tips? Oh, good one. I mean, like I said, I host dating events across

my city. And these things, dating apps are dying. Like you see, honestly, all of the numbers, like the stock prices of match group, et cetera, et cetera, they're all plummeting. And that's because people are fed up with online. They want to meet IRL and it's a city-based thing. But in every single major city now, there are incredible events that you can go to where everyone there, first is single, secondly has intent, right? So that would always be my starting point. But what I always say to people as well is like, if you're looking for shared values or shared interest, then the place to find a partner might be within one of those interests. In that circle. So I don't want to use run clubs as an example because it's a bit of stereotype, but it could be anything, right? Like paint

and sit, book club, whatever it is. You already have that advantage in that shared interest. That's what I feel like put yourself into the community. Like I don't drink alcohol. It's just not my thing. So why am I going to go to a bar? Right. Like, what am I going to do there? It's like, I'm not going to go to like a fucking motorcycle meet up if I don't ever ride a bike. Like, it doesn't make sense. But like, the funny thing is, I was, when I moved to Venice, I was all about it.

I was in height club. I was in every fucking club you could imagine. I was an event right all the time. Like anybody I could, I'm like, because you have to make new friends and get out there. And I still my fucking partner on an app. I still met dudes where all of a sudden like a week later, be like, oh, I found them on hinge, even though I met them in person. I think for me, I understand. Like, I'm with people being like, I want to get off the apps.

great, go out and have experiences. But I also think the apps like they are a yes and, right? Like they're not the only way to date. You can have it where you go on at night, once a night just to be like, oh, oh, this guy's cute. And yeah, he's not a runner, but he's a lifter. And I have never been to a gym, so I would never have met this person. I would say, interject yourself into the community and things in people that you like to do and also just be open-minded of where you're going to meet this person. It could be through a friend. It could be that you go to the group meet and that your friend's brother is single. You never know. Exactly. All right. Last question, what is, does emotional intelligence look like to you? Oh, I love that question. I do

know what I've never been asked that before? Let me have a bit of a think about it. So for me, it's about, it's a very broad topic, but it's about understanding your own behaviors and where they come from. So like for me, I had certain really damaging behaviors in my dating life. You know, when you think about avoidance, a lot of stuff I took about my podcast around things like ghosting, abandonment, fearing, rejection, all that kind of stuff. And they were either things which I would hurt other people with in terms of behavior or things which I'd hurt myself. Emotional intelligence for me is understanding where they come from and then having the ability to long term try and change them. Yeah. Emotional intelligence personally is like the ability to be able to articulate

what they're experiencing in the moment, the ability to emotionally regulate and come back to the present moment, the ability to communicate even through difficult times and emotions like that to me is emotional intelligence, the ability to be able to articulate where they're feeling, what they're feeling to hold space for my emotions as well. Like I think it's such a multi-layered conversation, but something that... Yeah. Well, this is the other thing. I would describe myself as quite an emotionally intended in a person, but my is selective. So there are certain emotions, which, anger, for example, which I'm not very good with because of a lot of stuff that happened in my childhood. And embracing some of those more negative emotions and being more comfortable in them

is another form of intelligence for me. Agreed. I think that's part of also the compassion and the curiosity and God, you and I could talk for another fucking hour. Sturt. Oh, Tom. Thank you for joining us. All right, let everybody know. Where's your podcast, what I was on? Where can they find you?

All the fun stuff. And can they still slide into your DMs? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm hideously single now, which is nice. It's really good. I'm embracing it. So Sabrina was on episode, Whitey Men, Love, which was all around Love,

with my podcast called Wide A Man. It's all about male behavior and dating and relationship. It's flying at the moment, which is really, really good. And I'm really excited about it. I also has the Meng's group for those guys, listening called Shoulders to Shoulder. Find me on Instagram at Stroud Tom.

Easy one to look for. And we'll link everything. And guys, again, just an FYI, if you did message Tom and you tried to slide in his DMs, please no, it's not personal. It's just that there's a lot of inundation. And even for me, like, I miss so many messages. It's not personal. Sometimes it's just not.

You might not get a response back. And that's okay, baby, shoot your shot. I just, I do try and read every single DM. And, you know, but it's just difficult to respond to everyone. Yeah. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Tom.

Thanks for being here. Oh my God, just so welcome. Thank you. Until next time, guys.