The Sabrina Zohar Show - 17: Narcissism, avoidants and why anxious attachers date unavailable people with LMHC Jessica Baum

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

On this weeks episode Sabrina is joined by Jessica Baum LMHC to go over narcissism, anxious and avoidant dynamics, how to date and spot a narcissist and so much more! Get Jessicas Book HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility. Oh, because we're a team now? That's a nice story. The Devil Wears Prada 2 in Theaters Friday. Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another week of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am going to be your host for today. Guys, I am so excited.

I have an amazing therapist. Jessica Baum is here this week. She is phenomenal. I'm so, so, so excited to have her. We are talking about narcissism versus avoidance and neurodivergent relationships. I have debugged all of it. I've asked her all the questions you guys have asked about narcissists. Can they change?

Is it intentional? What is it? How can you identify? how can you spot it in dating and everything in between. So stay tuned. Get ready for another amazing episode this week. Awesome. Jessica, welcome to do the work. I am so excited to have you. So excited to be here. Awesome. And guys, so where anyone doesn't know, Jessica has an amazing book. It's called Anxiously Attached. And I'm so excited for her to share more about writing that and how that came about and was that personal experience or just, you know, kind of you going around with your clients and

things like that. And I'm just so excited. And I would love if you even just introduce yourself a little bit more and share with the community about you and your practice and just things because I think I resonate so hard with a lot of the things that you talk about. Yeah, sure. I mean, so I have been a licensed mental health counselor for about 13, 14 years, and I have a private practice here in Palm Beach, and it's a group practice. So there's a team of us that are really trained in trauma, attachment theories, family systems work, and we work together collectively as a team, couples, of course. And yeah, we've just been diving deep in attachment theory. And I, personally I've struggled from codependency in my life, which I share in the book.

And I studied it so much. And I just wanted the average reader to not only identify with me as a human being and as someone who has walked through a lot of things in my life, but as a professional who thoroughly studies this. And you kind of get both with the book. So you get a lot of answers, a lot of pathway to healing. So I just became kind of obsessed with getting this information out to the regular public because they need it so badly. Yeah. Oh, boy, don't I know that. And that's why I'm such an advocate of like, I might tell people things that I've learned in therapy. I'm like, but don't forget, you got to go to therapy. Like, it's very important to also have peer to peer to peer is great. But having somebody with the background and the knowledge to actually be able to effectively move you through, which is really why I saved today's episode specifically for you because I think narcissism, borderline personality disorder, anxious, avoid, and all of those things, it's like, I think it's, it's first off a word that is wildly. misused. Like I find that the word narcissist is used just based to talk about somebody that even is sharing something about themselves. And you're like, that is not what that is. So I want to just

die right in because I know that we have so many questions that people have sent in that they want you to answer. But I want to just talk about first the misuse of the word. Can you really maybe clarify a little bit more of like truly what a narcissist is and perhaps maybe the difference between a narcissist versus an avoidant so that people can maybe understand a little bit more of the differences? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. So avoiding people. can look narcissistic because they can, their self-protective behaviors is to shut down and kind of focus on self and it's a spectrum, you know, and so extremely avoiding people can very much fall in the narcissistic categories because their sense of self, like they put that

first in their protective strategies. I would say narcissism is an early, early developmental wound. So this wounding happens. It's so primal that it's more sensational. and it's around not feeling special. So it's usually done in infancy because of an early, early years. And, you know, someone with narcissism builds their sense of self dependent on how they're being received by the world around them. And they need a constant reminder of who they are good or bad. They don't have a core sense of self that they touch into.

And when they do touch into, there can be a lot of shame. so they tend to kind of manipulate the world so that they don't have to kind of deal with their inner world. And so those are the people that will jump from relationship to relationship to relationship. And you often see the woman become angry and all these other symptoms because they project a lot. And they don't even know that they're projecting. So someone who's just avoidant tends to just shut down and post-process their feelings

and sometimes runs in when they're scared. but they can circle back around and with, you know, great communication skills. It's really easy to be in a relationship with them. Maybe not as easy if you're anxious, but it's easy. Where narcissism is so, the developmental wound is so early that it's really hard for them to heal and they never want to go to therapy. They will do anything they can to not go to therapy. So they don't even really, some of them don't know what healing is.

It's so threatening to their system. Yeah. for me personally, like I for years didn't really understand it, but my father is like textbook narcissist. Like even over years of learning it and realizing like lack of empathy, lack of taking any kind of ownership. There's just, there's certain things where I'm like, wow, it's the narcissistic rage that's palpable. And for me growing up, it was like that was normalized. And so it's like, like cliche, I ended up marrying my father. I ended up marrying a narcissist who embodied all of those characteristics. And it was hard because I think a lot of people, it's like,

it's hard to be able to tell, but I would love, do you have any, like, standouts that you think really embody a narcissist that maybe something is easier to see in the beginning? You know, just recently, I've been able to, like, really reflect on that. So it's, they always say classic love bombing. So someone that tells you that you are the love of their life right from the beginning. And we've all been there, right? And someone who doesn't really learn from their mistakes. So they keep repeating the same patterns and they can't get out of their own paradigm. So they think that everybody else thinks like them. So they don't have the ability to kind of understand that other people are thinking differently because they can't really get out of sense of

self that way. I would say when you're dating someone, they usually want to merge pretty fast. And they can be pretty charismatic and they can meet all your needs and their doers. And they usually have no insight. So a lot of people think that they're manipulative. I think there to a degree there is that. And I also think there's a degree where they don't even realize often everything that they're doing. They're just trying to desperately survive. And so the core of narcissism is a lot of scared, desperate little boy or a little girl in there. If you can kind of spot that, watch boundaries. Narcissists don't like boundaries. So when you start to set boundaries with them, how they respond to those boundaries gives you a lot of insight. So that's one thing you kind of want to try if you're in a new

relationship is setting a boundary. Dear Canadian exporters, our ambitions, our ideas, and our potential were never meant to be boxed in. Nothing can contain us. With the support of Export Development Canada's market insights and financial solutions, you can turn obstacles into opportunities, discover new markets, and keep our nation front and center on the global stage. The world needs more Canada.

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It's like, if you have strong boundaries and you don't get swept into the, like, they're so charming and they're so lovely and they're so all of these things, it's like, then I think you can distance yourself. And it's really funny because my brother was telling me, oh, yeah, I met this girl that she said, oh, you know, she loves my dad. And she's like, I've been dating him for a little. I love him. I know he's never going to open up.

And I had to laugh and I was like, what do you love about a narcissist? What do you love about this person? He's not letting you in. He doesn't share any personal information about himself. He's just really charming. And I was like, and that's where I think so many people can fall for the idea of somebody and fall for that potential. And it's like, but then when you really start to scratch the surface, set a boundary,

anything, ask for, hey, I'd love for this relationship to progress. That's really when you start to see those kind of true colors. And it's like, oh, yeah, that's true. What did you fall for? Yeah, I mean, that's also another sign that you bring up is like the lack of real vulnerability and sharing. So they're, you know, they tend to blame the outside world for all their problems. And they can't really, they don't have inner reflection. So they can't go inward.

But, you know, I think at the end of the day, this is going to sound weird. But, you know, every human is on their own journey. And if a narcissist or narcissistic wound lives in a human, you kind of have to, you can still love them. But you kind of want to be really. of your expectations and boundaries around them and not hand any part of yourself over to them because there's a likelihood they will disappoint you in that way. So I think, like, I know a narcissist in my life that I love deeply and, you know, I have compassion, but without those boundaries, it can be really, really difficult. Which, and what I really appreciate about what you've said is,

is showing compassion. Like, there's not a blame. There's not a, This is, because I think somebody asked, is it intentional? And it's like it doesn't feel like it's his malice. It's not a bad, it's not a Jeffrey Dahmer. It's not like, oh, you want to inflict pain on other people because whatever. It seems almost like it's not intentional. Well, I mean, and if they're in pain and you're their love object, they might feel justified in, you know, silent treating you or some of those other really

gaslighting, whether they're conscious or not. That's their way of handling pain. But they justify their behaviors a lot. and they can be very calculated. So it really depends. There's no black and white. I do look from a neuro, like interpersonal neurobiology. We start to look at all of this as trauma.

And, you know, even narcissists can heal. It's just really at the end of the day, it is so much harder for them to walk through that. It takes a very courageous person to look inward. And that's doubly hard when they have a lot of shame. Yeah. So they can't handle shame at all. And, you know, shame can be developmental shame.

and it can live in the body. And so if they feel shame, that that's what causes a narcissistic collapse, again, boundaries and really kind of being able to identify that if you keep giving and giving and giving or try to love a narcissist more, it's not going to make them love themselves or result in you.

And we've all learned that lesson, you know, giving you the love that you need, a reciprocated love. And in the beginning, they usually then do a lot of the pursuing. And then somewhere you become dependent on them and then somewhere in the relationship their love avoidant.

So they'll kind of project and start to shut down or back up or get disinterested. Sometimes they get bored because they have boredom and avoid living in the middle of their body. And so, you know, sometimes all that starts when the hook already happens. You're already addicted to being on the pedestal with them. Totally. And you know what? Since you brought this up, like I feel, like you more than anybody are such a perfect person to talk this about. I feel like avoidance in general have such a bad rep.

And it's like that it my heart breaks is I'm like, guys, a lot of this is stem from a similar thing. One is significantly more outward. One is more inward. I would love if you could touch on that on the anxious avoidant side of like once and for all, one is not better than the other. Really the really what does it mean to be avoiding? Because I think so many people are like, or they try to diagnose of like, oh, I think this girl I'm dating is avoidant. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what does it matter?

You know, like, so I'd love your thoughts on that. Well, anxious people are avoidant too. They're avoiding abandonment. And so they're avoiding their abandonment wound. And so they will overcompensate by meeting the needs of others and self-abandon themselves. But essentially, they're avoiding their own wounding. And avoidant people are avoiding intimacy with themselves. So they don't want to see into themselves as easily. So that scares them. So they'll push the other person away. So both people are actually avoiding. It's just one is such a more self, like to be self-sacrificing and to meet the needs of others and to be people pleasing that's more

accepted and anxious people tend to want to do the work more and are more likely to reach out for help. But both people are avoiding, one is avoiding the abandonment wound and one is avoiding intimacy wounds. They're not always conscious of that. And, you know, I think anxious people, yeah, very much are avoiding parts of themselves as well. And it's about becoming aware of, you know, what part is being awakened in you in this relationship that you think the other person needs to change, but really could have deeper roots that are inside of you. Totally. And I think it's, it may, it just makes me sad. It makes me sad when I see people be like, oh, you know, avoidance don't deserve this or the anxious is better. And it's like, just because

you're more outward with your expression versus going inward doesn't make one more valid than the other. And I think it's having compassion as well for people for where they are because at the end of the day, it's a core wound. It's a trauma that has now manifested. Like I have my brother super avoided, whereas I'm textbook anxious. And it's like, and my sister's kind of in the middle,

I would say she's probably a bit meh, goes each way. And it's like same parents, but not really, not the same childhood, not the same parents, not the same dynamic, different, but how it can manifest.

And it's like, it doesn't, both of them are stemming from a core wound. Yeah, it's all stemming from an insecurity. So an insecure base, you know, your nervous system. and anxious people tend to expand their energy and fight and avoiding people tend to contract their energy. So their nervous system responses are both fear states. So someone who's really codependent

and expanding their energy and doing, doing, doing, that's a fear state. Yeah. And so, and someone who's shutting down and acting really selfish and is on an island, that's actually a fear state. So when you look at it, they're both fear states and they're both adaptive strategies to try to protect the person from whatever fear they're having. So it's a fear of abandonment we're going to run towards. If it's the fear of intimacy, we're going to run away. And let me ask you probably a question that I think so many viewers ask. Can an anxious avoidant relationship work? Absolutely. It takes a lot of work, but it can work and it happens all the time. And I think in every relationship, there's a dance. Yeah. And depending on where your development, mental wounding is,

that's what you're likely to track in. That's why it's really important to do your work. while you're in a relationship, even if your partner doesn't want to do it, go see a therapist. Because if you continue to do your work, you'll keep healing and you keep evolving and you won't stay stuck. But yeah, if you have a partner who does the work with you and we do that in Amago therapy, absolutely. But you might need another person's nervous system to help regulate the ruptures and repairs and help you guys get out of the dance, which can be very miserable to be stuck in without help. Totally. And I think, I mean, I've seen it. It's like, I think the anxious avoidant trap, I would actually love that was one of my next questions here is like,

if somebody is consistently dating somebody that's like emotionally unavailable or a narcissist, or it's like, you know, you hear that. It's like, I keep dating the same thing. It's like, what is that telling you about the person that continuously goes back for that same pattern over and over? Always dating that avoidant, always dating the emotionally available. Always dating the narcissist. Like, what do you see when you, when you hear that? What comes for you first and foremost? So, you know, when someone says they're always dating a narcissist, and then they're attracted to the love bombing stage and other things. And so that comes down to not being bathed in enough neurochemicals when they were an infant. So if you didn't get enough like from your mom or your primary caregiver and your brain wasn't like bathed than that, you're going to be more primed for that love bombing to feel good or you're going to have more blinders on when you start dating. So you might discount obvious red flags because it just feels so good. And it's easy to override that when there are those chemicals going off in your brain. So there's a lot of developmental healing that needs to happen if you're

attracted to a narcissist. And that says more about you. And we attract people that are at the same frequency as us and have the same developmental wounding. So if you can't heal, you always have to look at every relationship as an opportunity to heal and do your own inner work if your partner's not not willing. And if you don't do that, there's a chance your brain might see that and hopefully you can override the feelings or the neural chemicals that are being released and make healthy choices for yourself. Look at the facts. Yeah. And it's funny. I have, I was doing so. I was good coaching with somebody. And she kept, I don't understand. Like, I keep getting all these guys that are emotionally and available. And I was like, okay, can I ask you like, what are you like on the dates? And I was

like, do you ask this? I would never. I was like, you see where I'm going with this. I was like, there is a part of you that is being emotionally unavailable. I was like, you're so scared of showing that part of yourself. And then I was like, and then so of course, when you meet somebody who's emotionally and available and you're seeing or, you know, somebody that can hide those emotions or somebody is very charming and charismatic and they, you look at them and you're like, oh, cool, I want that. I want to embody that.

I'd like to be able, that makes me feel comfortable. And do you find that? Because I'll get this a lot of like, no, no, my childhood was great. My childhood was amazing. It doesn't come from my childhood. I dated a guy in my 20s. That was terrible. It came from him.

Mm-hmm. Do you get that? Yeah, I mean, and we're talking about implicit, like, memory system. And a lot of people don't understand that sensations that come up in your relationship that are strong are actually from your childhood. And so they don't look at memory that way. And if you're having big reactions in your relationship, there's a good chance that it's early, early memory systems going off in the here and now. So something is being awakened inside of you. So that's science. But I'm actually writing a book on that because I think that people don't really understand. that. So yeah, that's to come. Still like two years in the making. But so yeah, it's confusing. And I would say, you know, anxious people are sometimes over, they think they're being vulnerable, but they're just more comfortable sharing and they're more expressive. And so they don't hold space quite so much for the other person. So yeah, you're attracted to the lost parts of yourself as well. So if you crave stability and sturdiness, an avoidant person appears that way on the outside, but inside they are really chaotic. And if you struggle with being free and expressing your emotions, an avoidant person appears that way on the outside. So you're like attracting what you feel

like you don't have that's in the other person, only to find out those very things are the activators later on. And I wish if people could see me. My head is nodding like I'm like a parakeet as she's talking because it's so true. It's like we, I mean, I used to do that. I would look at these guys and think like, oh, wow, look how, look how stoic he is. Oh, I want that. Like, I'm so over the top and I'm always so much. And I'm this big personality. I'd love to be with someone that could hold and manage their emotions. It's like, no, that guy wasn't managing his emotions. He was completely avoiding them. But to me, that felt, that felt very safe to go, like, run straight towards the fire until I really started to peel back the layers and start to understand,

like, it starts to me, I think, and I'm sure, probably you could agree, that it's like, All of this that we're talking about starts with an awareness. It starts with even being able to see, wait a minute, there's a pattern here. I'm doing it over and over again or I don't feel great. There's something here. And if you're not even aware to be able to sit down and be like, huh, well, they're all kind of like looking the same. Then I would imagine that all of these awakenings aren't really going to start to come

until there's even just an acceptance of where you are. And I think that is even sometimes a really hard step for a lot of people to even see is that they want it's a lot of blaming everybody else but sometimes you really do have to look at yourself to be like okay what's my part of this like how can i take some ownership because i can only control myself i can't control other people absolutely i mean and going mystical but also science like every relationship is a mirror inwards and we've all been there where we've projected and we've gotten angry and we've had little me parts show up in our relationship and they're going to show up and the the best thing you can do is start to notice like what part of

of me is showing up and why? What's scaring me right now? How am I handling my nervous system and, you know, jumping into anger or even shutting down. Those are automatic responses. They're not so easy to change in the moment, but they're really, it's really amazing when you start to bring your awareness up around them because that's the first step to making change in neuroplasticity and in your brain. So starting to notice your parts, your trauma and everybody has trauma and trauma is like not the right word, but like what's being awakened inside of you? Where is its original root? How can you take some responsibility for what's being awakened in your relationship and get out of the cycle? How can you get help around it? It really can shift the whole relationship. One person healing can

shift the dynamic for two people as well because the system changes. Totally. And I was going to ask for people that are struggling, I get this question a lot of like I was saying, you know, the people are like, I don't know, I can't figure out, like, because I always say, like, the trauma is not, it's not the big tease. It's not that, like, somebody hurt you or abused you. It could be the perception of the situation, you know, when you're little and you're seeing what's going on in that egocentric age of not being able to differentiate like, oh, my dad is walking out. Oh, it's because it's me. It's like, as an adult, I can consciously look and be like, of course it's not you. You're six. How does this have anything to do with you? But for me, it was easy. It was easy to

find, like, oh, yeah, my dad used to do this. That must have been where all came from. But for the people that are really struggling to do that, do you have any advice on, like, they can start if they're feeling very stuck, but they don't really know what the issue is. Yeah, I mean, so what you're kind of touching on is developmental shame. So, you know, when we're really small and our parents are doing something, we are egocentric and we turn it inward. It has to be our fault. And that's actually a protective strategy. Because if we were really small and we're in that ego state and we actually could cognitively understand that there's something wrong with our parents, that's more of a threat to our survival than her.

turning it inwards and making ourselves feel unworthy or there's something wrong with me. So we start to collect that shame and those wounds and there's an inherent feeling like I'm unlovable or something is wrong with me that gets buried and embedded deep inside of us. And so if you're listening and I mean, we've all experienced shame because there's a healthy degree of shame, but we've maybe many listening have just that icky feeling that you get. That's actually like a younger part of you that has internalized a lot of things. and, you know, needs to come to the surface and be rewitnessed and held and made sense of what's actually going on in your world so that you realize that you are worthy and you are lovable

and you just internalize the felt sense of these things to survive. Yeah. And so I think, yeah, that could be really helpful, I think, for people that can't identify, like, anything that transpired or maybe specifics of like, I don't know, you know, my parents were always there. Everything seemed great. And so I think that could be really helpful for those because it breaks my mind. heart because I don't know how to support those people that, you know, feel very lost and just say,

like, I know that there's something. It's just I can't figure out what. And I'm like, I don't want to villainize. This isn't to say like your parents did anything wrong because I think all of us, like, at least I know I'm cognizant enough to say, my parents did the best they could with the information that they knew at that time. They did, they didn't know any better. And now, I mean, now my mom and I can have these crazy in depth conversations about her trauma and how it manifested in her life and then how she became a parent and then how it kind of how it's generally generationally as well rubbed off. But I think for the people that are like, I don't know, I have this great amazing relationship with my parents.

It could be, I would imagine really frustrating for them to be like, what's the problem? Where is this coming from? Yeah. And I think that like, well, there's intergenerational trauma just passed down through our nervous systems, our paradigms, our belief systems. And as an adult, if you think I had a really great childhood and there were some things, it's okay for your three-year-old or your six-year-old or your 10-year-old. to have a bad experience and for your adult today to still love and respect your parents.

And so we start to separate the two. And it's never about making your parents wrong. It's about seeing their woundedness and how that kind of got passed down to you and starting to heal that. Sometimes anger is an appropriate response, but we often don't stay at anger. Anger is just kind of a pathway to compassion for yourself. And then you have, then you're able to develop more compassion for your parents who are probably just surviving in the world. And now, unconsciously passed down a lot of their fear states or a lot of their behaviors or belief systems down to you. Yeah, that I have to say is that was tough for me.

With my mom, it was easier to do with my dad. That was hard for me. It was hard for me to look at and show compassion to him of like, he didn't do this on purpose. This was all he knew. My dad, an immigrant had like his whole story. And now as an adult, you hear it and you're like, well, how did you even, how did you even function?

Like, how did you even get through your days? And I think, but like you said, the compassion piece, has been really huge. And I remember my therapist once telling me, like when I was struggling with dating for many moons, she was like, you know, maybe we try to shift something. She's like, why don't you start to look at everyone as if they're a kid? She's like, because eventually, because realistically,

she's like, there's a traumatized child in every one of these people. And I started to be able, instead of looking and being like, fuck this guy and what a piece of shit and all that, you're like, maybe that guy's just hurt. And how sad that he feels that he has to run away from somebody versus being able to open up to them. I can have compassion towards that. I can also know it's not.

good for me. Right. No, absolutely. And I think that's something we call on-reself pairs. Like, you can, when you do a lot of the work, you start to see your parents little me. You start to understand that. And I can identify that. My dad is pretty emotionally unavailable. He's actually better now. But his parents were Holocaust survivors, both of them. And so there was a lot of trauma that was passed down. And he struggled a lot in my childhood with substance abuse and things like that. And he has directly impacted the men that I have chosen in life. And there was a period of time when I was really angry with him. And then I realized that he's just a survivor of his parents. He didn't get his emotional needs met. How the hell was he supposed

to meet my emotional needs? And I started to see his little boy in there. And it does. It shifts everything. And I would say that comes a little bit with a later stage of healing. Like first you have to heal your own little me enough. And then once you start to kind of work through that little me is what I referred to in the book, but it's inner child, but your younger parts, then you start to see your younger parts in everyone, and then their younger parts don't activate you quite as much on good days. So you can see progress being made when your partner or someone you care about is in a younger part, and it's not also activating you. You can start to see that that's exactly what it is, or your parent is in a younger part. It's not directly activating you on good days. On some not good

days, you know, we're not perfect, but you might be able to catch yourself afterwards. There's something else here now. Something new. From exclusively on Paramount Plus, it's the series Stephen King calls Scary as Hell. Everything here is impossible, but it's also real. Sci-fi vision calls it the best show streaming right now. We're running out of time and we still don't know the rules. Don't miss what the movie blog calls something you need to watch. Saving those children is how we all go home.

from binge all episodes exclusively on Paramount Plus. Yeah, and I love that. And that's something that I'm, I will scream from the rooftops. I'm like, healing doesn't just mean that one day you're going to wake up and everything's okay. And you're just like, oh, I'm good.

I'm fine. Everything's kosher now. I was just saying the other day, I was doing my goal setting. And like doing my five-year goals, great. Cool, cool, cool. For so long, I thought my anxiety is only in relationships. Everything else in my life is fine.

It's just in the men I was choosing. And now I'm in this incredible, incredibly healthy relationship and it's beautiful and I've grown and I've changed. And so then I was doing my goals and I was writing my six month goal down and I started to literally feel like I stopped for a second. And I noticed I was like, huh, my body completely changed when I thought about the reality that this goal was right in front of me. I was like six months. It's right around the corner. And then I was like, and I went into my coping mechanisms where my body tensed up. The narrative started to play of like, you're not going to do that. Nobody fucking likes you. All of those negative thoughts. And then how did I handle it?

I was like, I'm going to disassociate and go and check my analytics and see, let me get the validation from other people. And I had to stop. And I was like, and I share these stories to explain. I'm like, this is doing the work is being able to like in. And I was like, did my whole run through. I was like, where's this coming from? There is a part of me. I was like, growing up, we didn't know it was with my dad, like when money was going to come in, when it wasn't. And I was like, there's a scarcity around that. There's a fear around that. And instead of getting mad at myself, I was like, you know what, I'm going to hold some compassion and space for myself. I'm going to say six months was really jarring to my nervous system because that really freaked me out. Let's just look at maybe what I can do in a week so that I can feel a little bit more in control. But I really like to clarify to people like, it's going to be a journey.

I've been doing all this stuff for like four or five years. You're 13 plus years in. And it's like, and we're still always going to be evolving. Yeah, hopefully, right? And I mean, you know, I've told someone, you know, you got to do the work. And people are like, what's the work? And I love the name of your podcast and that famous book that's out there. And the work is forever involving because of our memory implicit streams of information and how we process things.

And it's a forever unfolding. I have to say if you start, it can feel overwhelming because accumulated grief or embedded trauma might come to the surface. And if you're in a relationship that is activating you, it's the perfect opportunity to do the work. it does bring on expansiveness, joy. You know, life is full of all of that, but sometimes if you've been avoiding your heart center or your body for a really long time, you can have quite a bit to move through.

And everybody's different in terms of their experience. So it can feel like you're walking in the dark. The thing is you're not supposed to do it alone. And, you know, healing means revisiting these things in the support of others. And it takes a lot of vulnerability. But once the ball gets rolled, even when it's hard, you're kind of like, okay, there's a deepening that's happening within me

and in my life experience. And so it usually propels people more to keep doing it because they're like, it's working. And even though it's hard, I know that it's working and it's making me a better person. Like going to the gym. You're not going to go to the gym today and be like, oh, that's it. Okay, I got the body that I want. It's like, I could be at the gym for three years. I go to the gym seven days a week, six days a week. And I'm still not at that place. And I'm like, but that's okay. I don't want to be the smartest person in the room. I don't want to get to my goal. And peak, it's like, but I know that every day I have to show up. I have to do the work.

I have to invest in myself and I have to continue to put one foot in front of the other and do it. And that there's going to be days where I go and I'm like, fuck this. I don't want to work out today. And I might be in my own head. I'm like, but I also know that if I stick to it, that macro, I'm going to see, oh, wow, micro, I'm not going to see the force for the trees when I'm standing at a stump. And so like, I'm also really big on like celebrating those little wins. Like I had a client.

I've just been coaching dating wise. and he was incredibly anxious. God bless his soul. It was palpable. Even, you know, when you read, like it would read an email, he would send me and I could feel the anxiety.

And he even didn't even realize where he was like, I wanted to do all this, but instead I didn't. And I cried and I let myself feel it. And he was like, man, when am I going to feel better? And I was like,

you didn't even realize, you changed the dance steps. You did do something different. You didn't play right into, okay, I'm the Texas person a thousand times until I get an answer. I was like, progress, not perfection,

even a minute. amount of progress still is better than where you were before. Yeah, absolutely. So I am showing up. I don't know the gym would be the analogy for me, but I understand what you're saying. And there are days, you know, I think every therapist should be see a therapist. And I am a big advocate of that. I see a therapist every week and she's amazing and has held so much space for me.

And, you know, there are days where life is kind of okay and you feel like you don't need to go. And it's like go because that's when you can address the stuff. that you're not in crisis over or that you're not complaining. You know, you might be able to touch on different things. So if you can just stay consistent, slow down. The embedded trauma will come up because a felt sense of safety that you get from that person's nervous system allows your system to recognize that and more will surface the safer you feel.

So it can be messier before it gets easier too. So I wish these things are made more public. And I think that's why people struggle staying in therapy because it's, It is hard. It is really hard. It takes such a courageous person to start to look inward. And it's a lot easier to avoid deflect, you know, change the external world thinking you're going to change the problem when internally the problem exists. And I see that happens over and over, especially with narcissists. You know, they will blame the outside world, get a new partner. They will shift everything and never really address the internal.

understandings and some of them just can't, you know? And it's just kind of accepting the differences in capacities, capacities, developmental wounding and consciousness. Oh, 100%. I mean, even like, I remember asking my dad once. I was like, dad, why did you, like, what led you to cheat on mom so many times? And he's like, you guys were terrible kids and your mother was an awful wife. I'm like, oh, right.

No, this has nothing to do with you. Of course. There's not, how silly of me to think that this could have anything. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it's like, and what I've, and like, you'll see people. You know, and those are like, oh, you know, I was dating this guy. And then he went off and got a new girlfriend in the week.

And it's like, I'm devastated. It's like, oh, well, what's that showing you? That person's not processing anything. They're just, that's not me. It's everybody else. It's like. And your dad probably believed that narrative. Like there's a part of, like, I was with someone who said, well, you moved out or you left.

And it's like, that gave you the license to cheat. Like, why did I move out? Do you want to take any ownership of your own, you? you know, trauma states and your own protective behaviors. And they, that person particularly did take ownership, but like often they don't want to. Or they, they aren't aware. They're so used to making the excuse for themselves and justifying their behavior and getting away with it that, you know, they don't have a lot of inner reflection.

And that's, that's frame development. And that's also like scientifically, like they literally have no introspection. Like they don't have that capacity. That is something they have to. learn. That's so wild to me. Hopefully enough consequences come in their life where they kind of have to learn at that point. Yeah, no, totally. And it's like, I think that's why I've always been, I remember when I met my ex, the raging narcissist. It was like my dad, the first thing he said, I was like, oh, why'd your,

you know, why'd your last girlfriends? Like, what happened with your last relationships? He's like, oh, they were all crazy. I was like, really? All of that. Oh, and he gave me each one of them, how they were all just bat shit crazy. And he just couldn't understand it. And it's like, I'm not going to sit here and be like, oh, you're the problem. It's like, but there's a reason relationships end and there's two people in it. So there has to be some kind of accountability of maybe they were crazy. But you know what? I was also this.

And it's like if someone's going to take zero accountability, that is right there even. What's something that you can look out for when you first start dating is do they take ownership of anything? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that happens all the time. I remember someone telling me, look at my angry partner. Look how angry they are, even showing me videos of them. And at the time, I didn't know to say, well, you were on the other side of that, provoking that. but you look so innocent.

And it's like, we just don't know. We want to, they take the victim role a lot, you know. And so they spin the story and they're doing that because they, most of the time, sometimes they don't have the insight. In that particular case, there was no insight. So you can't even be mad. You just kind of have to be like they're really, really unaware. They have no inner awareness.

And so it's kind of sad when you start to think about it. That's where I stopped like looking at them negatively. I was like, I can have compassion for it. I'm like, I feel bad for this person. Like it is, I can still, like I said, I can differentiate between, I don't want this person in my life and that's not good for me, but I still can say, like, that's sad. I feel my heart goes out to somebody that can't feel this or can't think that. It's like, you're missing out.

And I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, and they're just in a survival state that they know how an adaptive strategy that is a protection that is just so strong that prevents them from really taking any serious ownership. Totally. And so I had, because I know we're, We got a little bit left time, and I wanted to talk about something specific that people ask me about all the time. And I was like, again, I'm not the person to necessarily ask about this.

But neurodivergent dating, like ADHD, autism, things. I always get people that are like, yeah, but none of this applies to people with ADHD. And I'm like, my brother is ADHD, so I'm very, very, very close to it personally. But I was like, how do you feel? Because like, let's say, for instance, even something was like, you know, for me, like something I look out for when I'm dating is like someone that's going to make eye contact with me. That's going to talk to me and look at me in the eyes. And then of course I get, well, yeah, but you're not, what if they have autism? And it's like, I wanted to hear your thought process on for anybody out there that might have ADHD

or autism or be dating in the neurodivergent world, maybe either it's something even it could be support or how to bring it up in dating or what does that look like. But I really was, I'm unsure about it. So I really wanted to hear kind of your professional thoughts on that. Yeah, I don't know that I would be the best person to ask, but I think. think that when you're dealing with someone whose brain literally acts differently than yours, you want to get really curious as to why. And it's a good opportunity to not personalize their behaviors. And if someone isn't making eye contact with you because of their brain kind of

functioning differently, what's getting touched inside of you? Because that's usually your wound. And so if you can get in touch with that, you might be able to work through that as an opportunity to work through that or as an opportunity to continue to date that person, the other person. but really that's about turning the flashlight in. I mean, yeah, it's nice to have eye contact. It's important. That's part of feeling connected. But if the person can't, you really want to deal with what's coming up inside of you.

And then once you deal with that, you can make a better decision. Totally. Really an opportunity to not personalize other people's behaviors. I think you can also, there's a difference between someone who's avoiding eye contact versus someone who's blatantly rude or blatantly disrespectful. That's just like on their phone or maybe just looking around being like, uh-huh. So I feel like they're, to a certain extent, there's, I'm sure, an element of potentially being able to see that. But I like that you're kind of like me where I'm like,

instead of us externalizing this, let's bring it inwards. What is this saying about me? What is this? What's coming up for me so that I can be more curious, not only about them, but about myself. Yeah. And it's going to come up for someone like you who's going to be in a relationship and one day your partner is going to look at their phone and be disconnected.

And it's like the more work you do on that, the more you don't personalize or you don't have those awake. into parts to be quite as strong because we all, we've all been there where our partner or we have been distracted or avoidant. And I think the most frustrating part is not when someone is doing those behaviors. It's when they don't have the awareness of to why or they won't acknowledge that they're doing those behaviors. Like it's, it's probably good to be like, yeah, I'm really picking my protector up right now, which is my phone. And I'm distracting myself because there's something going on inside of me and this isn't about you. And I can imagine this feels horrible for

you, but no one does that ever. Yeah. So, you know, that would almost be more beneficial than minimizing the behavior, like, or asking, you know, trying to control your partner's behavior because it's so upsetting if your partner can say you're right. And this is what's going on for me. And I need to do this right now. It's kind of like validating you, seeing you, and now you're understanding that that behavior is about them. It's not about how they feel about you. I know. I've actually done that. Like my brother's very ADHD. And my partner, not as much. But just in general, like when I see them pick up their phone, I had to stop my and I was like, why is this bothering you?

And then I had to come to it where I was like, I don't feel like I'm being heard. I'm talking. I'm in the middle of saying something and you pick up your phone. And I was like, and I know that that's not, to me, it felt rude, obviously, because it's just in the middle of fucking saying something. But I then had to express by saying like, first it happened once, it didn't say anything. Then when it happened again, I was like, hey, can I just share something with you? I was like, it makes me feel like I'm not being heard when you do that.

And I'd really appreciate at the very least, just let me know you need to do something on your phone. So I don't feel like I need to spin my wheel. and say something and then go, hey, well, did you hear what I had to say? Or, you know, when somebody does it, uh-huh, and you're like, you're not listening. So I try to at least communicate that. But anyways, that's just going off an aside tangent. But I think the last couple of questions I had for you that I would love your input on are really, what are your favorite regulating techniques for your anxiety when you're anxious attachment and maybe you're dating and avoidant or nurse or whatever

and you're spiraling, especially with a lot of the people with the texting stuff of like, I didn't get my text today and I'm starting to create this whole narrative and they don't like me. I'd love to hear what you love. What are your go-to regulating techniques? The Volkswagen Atlas is a 7-seat powerhouse that actually makes sense for real life. It's got cargo space for all your gear, the dogs, and even half of your rec league soccer team. And under the hood, a 2-liter turbocharged TSI engine that hauls up to 5,000 pounds. The 7-seat Atlas, you deserve more space.

Visit bw.ca to learn more. SUVW, German-engineered for all. Honestly, understanding that you're turning in inward and your nervous system is a hard time regulating and breathing, calling a friend co-regulation is really the best if you can call a friend not to vent, but just to hold space for your anxiety. Orienting in your room,

distracting yourself can actually be beneficial. I talk about in the book about breathing, like different types of breathing, accessing your little anxious little girl, coming up with mantras that can help you kind of work through the moment knowing that it's only temporary. And if the person really does care about you and they love you, you kind of need to remind yourself in those moments because we can really case build based on an avalanche that goes off inside. So kind of trusting the process, letting go of control, surrendering, all very hard for the anxious person. Yeah, that's why my favorite. I'm like,

what are the facts to back this up? Every time I start to say, he doesn't like me anymore. I'm like, girl, you've got plans for like seven things in the head. I'm like, let's not. And I'll catch myself. But I always just love to hear people's different like techniques or things that they like to utilize when it comes to anxiety management because I think that is, to me, I don't like to give tips on dating to elicit a response for somebody else. I like to give tips on dating so that you can feel healthier and like you're showing up in a more at least centered space as opposed to coming with all of the throwing your baggage onto the other person and being like, cool, unpack this. And it's like, I don't want to be able to do that.

I'd like to be able to come with it with a clearer mind so that at least I can see that person. Because somebody had actually asked, if this, you know, mine one last question. Someone had asked me to ask you, how do they stay in the moment and be present and not romanticize what this person could be? You know, romanticizing is a little bit normal in the beginning, but then kind of bringing it back. I just met this person. This person has little me parts. This person has their own trauma. This person has insecure parts.

It's not just the presentation that I'm seeing on the outside. And it's okay to romanticize a little bit. Just, you know, watch it and kind of realize it's a human being with flaws. And they are going to have parts of themselves and behaviors that you will not like. And they will come up. So just kind of reminding yourself that what you're seeing in the beginning is not the full picture. Totally. Now I love that.

I'm like, let's try to brace yourself. Be like, they're a human. They're not the Greek God that you have them in your mind. they're just a person and they have flaws. Right. But, oh, Jessica, I'm so, I'm so grateful that you were able to come today because I really had been saving this episode specifically. And so for anyone listening, please, I'm going to link it into the show notes that you can get

Jessica's book because it is one of my favorites and I love it. And that's why I really wanted you to talk about it. And where can they find you? Where can anybody tap in? Well, you can just Google, you know, the book is anxiously attached. My Instagram is Jessica Baum, LMHC. And you can just Google Relationship Institute or be self-form. B-E-L, wait, B-E-S-E-L-F-F-U-L dot com is my coaching company.

And there's a list of all the coaches. And they're also the therapists and my therapy company. So, yeah, I'm all over the place. If you basically just put my name into the Google, you'll find me. Awesome. Cool. And like I said, all of those will be linked in the show notes. I'll talk with you guys about what you want in there.

And for anybody, please go follow Jessica. Get the book. I'm telling you this is going to just, it's part of your toolbox. And so I'm so excited. And thank you again so much for being. on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. There's more to life than finding the perfect car, but finding the perfect car can help you get the most out of life, like the SUV that handles everything from drop off to off road, and the car that hauls groceries and hockey teams,

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