The Sabrina Zohar Show - 19: Masha pt 4! Self sabotage + the shame around your insecure attachment style

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

Masha joins us for another amazing episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show This week we go over befriending the nervous system, removing shame and what 'self sabotage' actually means.  Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. Guys, I am so excited. We have Ms. Masha K is back with us in the house. And we are going to talk today about the nervous system because it is such an important aspect in the healing journey, understanding your attachment style and your anxiety and all things that relate to the nervous system. So we're going to talk about befriending the nervous system.

What does that mean? Self-sabotage and the shame around your insecure attachment style. So without further ado, get right on into it. Hi, Masha. Welcome back as our resident nervous system expert slash fucking badass. Welcome back to do the work. Thank you.

I am so excited to be here. It's my favorite. It's my favorite because you and I end up talking for like six hours about this stuff. And we're like, why don't we just have an episode? A hundred percent. I'm excited. I'm excited to share, especially too, with everybody. So I've been part of Masha's course.

I've been doing the, it's a six-month intensive, all about, you know, understanding the nervous system and everything that has to do with it. And I will have you explain a little bit better than me. But it has been so eye-opening and so interesting to learn about the nervous system and how it affects dating and everything like that. And that's why I thought, why not do an episode that goes further into what we're learning so that more people can be educated. And if you like what you hear, you can join the program.

Yes. I am so honored to have you in the program. It is such a gift to have you there. And yeah, it's been awesome. And yeah, the program is six. months. I call it the mind-body recalibration formula. And what we're doing is we're basically learning a process for creating growth and transformation. We're doing the inner worker out of success, right? Like there is really a formula and an art to growth and transformation. And we're using the nervous

system in order to create that. Yeah, I love that. I do love that. And so now we're going into something that's been new for me, which is, but so, okay, let me back. up. When it comes to the nervous system for so long, I didn't understand it. I remember like maybe it was like a year ago in Venice when I went on a date with a guy in his profile said, I know I'll like you or some shit like that. It's like if my nervous system is calm. And I was like, or like something I'm seeking is a calm nervous system. And I remember kind of laughing and he and I going out and then understanding what he meant, that was kind of the first time that I really understood about it because no therapist had talked about it. Nobody has ever

given regulation techniques. So then when you and I were connected, and I started really diving in, now what's so fascinating to me about the program is befriending the nervous system. And so I'd love for you to explain a little bit more but what that means, but I found that even just because like, Masha, although you're like one of my closest friends, you also coach me. And it's been so beneficial for me. And I've now started to understand your thought process on like, instead of shaming, leaning into it, understanding your nervous system.

And so I'd love you to really explain what the fuck that means to everybody and maybe how that can be more implemented. Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. And, you know, this is something I actually, once I started working with clients, I just noticed the same pattern over and over and over again. And so when I was creating this group program, I really wanted to make this a part of a phase, like an integral part of the program, because I just noticed that this is the part that everyone was skipping, everyone was missing. And then they were wondering why they're doing all the things, but they're not seeing results or the change isn't lasting, right? And so what I found, is that a lot of people have awareness of their patterns. They know what's wrong with them, you know, like especially like people listening to this podcast. Like they're listening to the podcast. They're reading the books.

It's not a lack of information and it's not even a lack of self-awareness. Yes, they might not know about their nervous system or certain things, but it's really not a lack of self-awareness. What I found is that there is this overwhelm of shame of they are aware that they have these problems. They know this is bad. They know this is wrong. they know they should be doing this.

They're constantly bombarded with messages about this, right? And yet they feel so much shame for having these coping mechanisms because that's what it is. It's their nervous system trying to protect them. And so when I was creating this program, it was like the first phase needs to be and we need to spend substantial time on befriending ourselves. And what I mean by that is all the parts of yourself that you think are broken, all the parts of yourself that you think needs to be fixed, all the parts of yourself that you're rejecting. step one is you actually bringing those back in and befriending them and realizing what they actually are which is your nervous system working super hard to keep you safe all the things that you think are broken about you are actually your nervous system doing its best to protect you right and when we

really understand that when we really befriend these parts then we could start to create change we can't hate ourselves into change it just does not work and that's what most of us are doing. Like, I see this, this is bad, this is broken, I need to fix this. And the more you push it away, the stronger that becomes. And so there becomes all these internal battles. And so step one to doing the work is befriending yourself. And yes, that starts with befriending the nervous system because it's at the foundation of all of this. Totally. And I think it's funny, I'll get so many people that are like, how do I just get rid of this? How can I just like not be anxious anymore? And I'm like, oh, it's not about just

not doing it anymore. It's like, trust me, if it were that easy, and then none of us would be doing this. But it's like, actually, on the contrary, what it is leaning into it. And I think that was my first step was for so long, I hated myself. I hated my anxiety and I hated the fact that I would push every guy away and every relationship would get fucked up. And I was so mad. And then where I really started to see the growth was like, okay, well, instead of me hating myself like everybody else, or bullying me or putting me down or letting little me know, I was like, maybe it's time for me to lean it. And maybe it's time to use this as kind of what you say. It's like an exploratory experience that, okay, so like for instance, the other day

when we were in the group, you had us write down six-month, five-year and ten-year goals or one-year-five-year, I can't remember, but whatever. And there were some of the goals where I was like, okay, whatever, yeah, I can handle this. The five-year, no problem, because I knew there was time. The six-month, though, ooh, baby, all of a sudden, I remember writing, I'm going to double viewership on the podcast, and instant. my shoulders went up, my heart started to race. I felt so dysregulated.

And then I started to seek validation. I was on my phone. And instead of shaming myself for that, I was like, oh wait, let me lean into this. What is here? And that led me on this crazy path of like my ketamine and doing all this stuff to understand, okay, that was my coping mechanism and my nervous system being like, hey, way too overwhelming. You want to double, wait, you already got to where we are, which was a lot for us. And now you want to double this, girl.

Let's go back. Yeah. So I was curious also even your thoughts on that because I remember when we were in the group and I was feeling it so intensely. And I was trying to just, I remember you had mentioned, you were like, okay, well, maybe we just like go a little slower and like introduce something new to our nervous system,

which I think could be really beneficial for people to maybe learn from you of like if something maybe feels a little too scary, how to scale it back so that you still feel like you're making progress and you're healing, but you don't feel like you're doing nothing. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for sharing that because I think so many people can relate to that. Like one thing I will answer your question, but one thing I just want to point out is how you approach that, right? That to me is the epitome of this befriending phase and why I do not allow my clients to start to make changes in the beginning. I actually tell them you have to put trying to change anything on hold. And we just need to befriend what's here because there's so much valuable information. That's exactly what you did. You got triggered, which most people run from.

but instead you said, no, bring this in. There's valuable information here. I can learn about myself. And honestly, my nervous system is probably communicating very valid points, which it always is. Yeah. Right. And so you leaned into that and brought that in. And that is what it means to befriend, right?

And so I just love how you did that. And that was the whole goal of this phase that we're all still in, right? Because there's so many layers to it. In terms of how do you move towards your goals while keeping your nervous system in mind? Like safely, you know, so you're not freaking out. And I think another big thing was like, I didn't run away from the feeling. I was hyper sensitive and aware to, when I get disregulated, I already know. I'm like, my shoulders go up, my heart races.

I grab my phone and I try to seek external validation. Checking the analytics, checking the followers to be like, okay, it's growing. But that's what I was because I was like, I don't know necessarily that other people have that awareness. But I was curious in the early stages, I think, because a lot of people might be early on. Yeah. Well, exactly. Most people do not have that awareness. right and that is what to me befriending is it's noticing how does my body respond to when i'm triggered

right where does my mind go what are the stories that i tell myself that is so important and even something like oh do i grab my phone instead of seeing that as a bad thing oh i'm and i know you didn't mean it this way but a lot of people might say oh i'm getting external validation that's bad quote unquote that's not bad that's your nervous system seeking a little bit of support and saying i'm scared this makes me feel a little common momentarily. Yes, it's a band-aid, but it is supporting me. And so, yes, we need to develop that awareness of what's happening physically, what behavior is am I engaging in, what thoughts start to follow, remembering that our thoughts always follow our state and not the other way around, right? So developing that awareness is incredibly important. And even if you're still in the early stages

of developing that awareness, you will notice that when you step a little bit too far out of your comfort zone, things start to feel shaking. Yeah. You might not be aware of what that shaky means, but you know when it's happening, right? And so when we're setting goals, something that I really encourage clients to work on is you want to work with your nervous system. And that means if you set a goal that is really triggering you and it's just overwhelming you and you're feeling yourself shut down and engage in behaviors that are taking you away from who you really want to be doing, that's a sign of I need to pull back a little bit. And the sweet spot is understanding where is my comfort zone and where is me stepping out of my comfort zone and how do I kind of move towards that edge just a little bit and I don't overstep because that's what people want to do. They think there is, oh, the bigger I make my goal, the more intense I am, the more I do, the better, the more growth I'll experience. And that is actually not true because if you set your goal too big, your nervous system will

shut down and go into that dorsal state where it tries to keep you safe by immobilizing, by shutting down. And that is the opposite of what we want. we're trying to move towards our goals, right? If you stayed with that goal, your nervous is no keep shutting down. That would stop you from actually doing your work. Totally. Right?

And so you want to kind of like, okay, where is that line where, you know, there's some research that shows we want to be like 80% sure we could achieve our goal. Oh, that's a lot. It's a lot more than I would have thought. I know. And that's where I think even like for some folks like when I'll do even one-on-ones and it's like, so what are your goals? And like, I want to be secure.

And it's like, that's a big leap. You know, from going from hyper, hyper, hyper anxious to, okay, well, I don't want to feel this anymore. It's like, so then maybe we could break that down unlike you was. It's like, what does that actually look like? Okay, so does that mean you're going to text less and maybe spend 10 minutes a day meditating? You know, it's like, can we chip it away to something that's accessible? As opposed to, okay, well, I'm just going to be a different person tomorrow.

It's like, and here's where the befriending comes in for me, where when I have those kind of conversations which I have all the time when I get on consultation calls is step one, that first goal needs to be not wanting to run away, not wanting to fix yourself so desperately. Not wanting to be like, oh, I just want to get away from this. I just want it to stop, right? That actually needs to be the first goal. When you could accept these things about yourself, when you could befriend them where you could have compassion for it. And that's what I mean about befriending, by the way. It's treating these things that you don't like about yourself, the way you would treat, you know, your friend.

When they come to you in a moment, they're struggling. You don't push them away. You're like, oh, I understand. You have compassion. You have understanding, right? That doesn't mean you don't want to support them and taking action forward, but you have compassion and understanding. You have acceptance for them in the way that they are.

Yeah. We need that same thing for ourselves. And that actually needs to be goal number one. Yeah. Because if it's not, all the things you do, the meditations, the yoga, all of that is actually a bandaid. Yeah. It's a band-aid and we don't realize because you're like, no, no, no, that's also good for you.

So all these things are good for you. But if the intention behind the therapy, the meditation, the yoga, the breathwork is to get away from something within yourself, to fix yourself, you are actually not helping yourself. You are keeping yourself stuck. Which I think, I mean, then that's where shame starts to build in, where it's like, you know, I'll even have it where like I'll be working with a client and you can see they're getting so upset with themselves. and it's like, I'm like, what's coming up for you? I just wish I didn't feel this. I feel so embarrassed that I feel this. God, why can't I get over it?

And I'm like, okay, what always helped for me, I was like, every time you do that, I want you to imagine a five-year-old of you. You're going to tell that kid that? Because if I told little me, you're fucking idiot. I fucking knew you couldn't do this. Here we go again. You're nervous. You are so stupid.

I could only imagine little me being like, I'm sorry. I didn't know. And freaking out because why would I ever speak to her like that? So instead I've really become so accustomed to like kind of comprehensively when my nervous system gets dysregulated or I start to feel those triggers and I'm like, okay, there's a part of me that needs me. And instead of me being like, what the fuck am I feeling this or getting down on myself, I'm like, okay, how can I show up for myself in a way that nobody did for me? Yeah. And it's been really profound because instead of coming at it with a harshness, it's allowed me to also soften and have compassion in different ways and in different aspects with other people too. and understanding like, well, it's just where I'm out on my journey.

I'm just not to that level yet. Does it mean I can't know? It just means my goal for the next six months is to even just maybe just show compassion to myself. Yeah. And that's so beautiful. I love that. And that needs to be step one, right?

To have that compassion to stop shaming yourself. And this is where I personally find the nervous system is helpful because when you look at it through the lens of the nervous system, what has allowed me to have compassion for myself is to understand wait these things that I don't like about myself were actually really fucking brilliant coping mechanisms that I developed at a young age when I really needed and these coping mechanisms supported me if they weren't there I would have felt even worse I needed them yeah right because otherwise the pain would have been overwhelming yeah right and and again and I love your component of seeing it through the eyes of child it's like maybe reflecting on what happened when I was five

doesn't feel that overwhelming now, but through the eyes of a five-year-old, that pain was overwhelming. That's the first time you're feeling these emotions, right? You don't have the ability to self-regulate when you're young. And so when we could understand that whatever behavior you're engaging in, that seems so wrong, so broken, so messed up, it served you. Yeah. Really brilliantly, really beautifully, it served you and it's supported you. And right now it's coming up because a similar pain is coming up and this protective mechanism's like, hey, you need me. So I'm here. So I'm here. here, right? And instead of shaming that and trying to get rid of it, we need to get curious about why is it coming up? What is the pain? What is the internal wound that's surfacing that made this

protective mechanism feel like it has to come out and fight for me? Yeah. Right? That really needs to be the question. And when we start asking that question and getting curious, that is when healing becomes available to us. Because until that point, I don't think it's available to you. 100%. I think the curious part is such an important aspect. And it's even like, not even just with yourself, but even like, okay, a guy says something to you or whatever, your boyfriend says something to you. It's like instead of always jumping to the like, well, fuck this, it's like maybe let's get curious. Like, you know, for instance, like somebody says, you know, I was watching this show. And I was watching a show. And the guy, it was a couple they were going to get married. And it's like,

clearly they should not. It's 90 day of fiance. They should not be getting fucking married. And the one dude was friends with his ex. And the other guy kept saying, I don't want her here. I don't want her here. And then he, the other guy, he was getting super defensive. And the guy finally screamed, like, exploded and was like, I just wanted you to choose me. And he was like, I just wanted you to choose me and stop putting somebody else before me. And it's like, even just that kind of curiosity of understanding, like asking someone,

what makes you uncomfortable? Doing that for yourself. Why am I so uncomfortable with this? What is coming up for me? And staying curious and not judgmental because I think a lot of people use this one word that I know you have a take on. and it's I'm self-sabotaging. I'm self-sabotaging. Okay, well, I keep doing this.

I keep fucking engaging in the same behavior that is not working for me. And I know that you have thoughts on that. So I love to hear. Yes. Your perspective on the situation. I hate that word. I really freaking hate that word. And the reason I hate that word is that it implies that you are broken.

Yeah. And that if there is one thing you take away from listening to me, it's always you are not broken. You are working beautifully. your nervous system is working perfectly. There is nothing broken about you. There might be things you want to work on. There might be growth you want to experience, but not because you're broken and need to be fixed, right?

And self-sabotage implies that you are broken. There is something wrong with you and you are ruining it for yourself. And that does not make sense. Why would we do that to ourselves? We wouldn't. We wouldn't actually sabotage ourselves. What we're actually doing is we're self-protecting. Because I said I had somebody reach out to me recently.

of like I sabotaged another relationship because of my anxiety, I need help. And it's like I would love you kind of what do you feel? What do you hear from that? You know, it's like if I came to you and was like, that's how I used to be truthfully, after every failed, you know, dating single, like my anxiety flaring up and me texting a thousand times or me getting really defensive or, you know, like the number one thing, it's like, you'll hook up with a guy. And then it's like, if you didn't hear from him the next day, then you're already texting

a thousand times and accusing him. And then you're like, oh, I sabotaged again. Here I did. I fucked up another relationship. So how can we spin that with the protective component to be more, I think, relatable in real life terms? Yes. So thinking about, okay, so there's these behaviors that you think are self-sabotage,

being anxious, texting, accusing, something like that. Right? These are the behaviors you think need to be fixed, right? It's thinking about, okay, how far back do these behaviors go? When did I develop them? Yeah. That's one thing to really think about. When did I start doing this?

Another thing to think about is, what am I afraid would happen if I wasn't engaging in these behaviors? Yeah. What is this protecting me from? Because that behavior is a protective part coming up being like, oh, shoot, bad things are happening. She's unsafe. We need to protect her.

Right? And what are they protecting you from? What are you afraid would happen if you weren't doing this? Which an answer literally popped into my head as you were talking. And I was like what Jessica was talking about, like how anxious avoid. being abandoned. And I was like, the worst that can happen, I'll be abandoned. I'm going to be left again. Yeah. And it's like, and then, and it's the beautiful aspect of this work of being like, okay, where did I learn that? Okay, well, it's time for me to differentiate. Like, my favorite thing

you have ever said is like, is it an actual tiger or is it that, is it the stuffed animal that you're perceiving as the tiger? Yeah. Yes. And thank you for sharing that, first of all, because I think that's really helpful. Like, it probably is some fear of abandonment, right? There's this fear if I wasn't reaching out. And like sometimes fighting still feels a connection, by the way. Accusing, attacking still feels that connection still feels like I have you. I could I could still kind of salvage this in some way. You haven't left yet. Yeah. Because the fear is you're going to leave the abandonment. Right. And so it's thinking about, you know, how far back does that go? How far back was I afraid of feeling abandoned? And in those moments when I was a child, when I needed my parents,

my caregivers, friends in order to survive, right? What did I do to not be abandoned? And did I scream for help? Did I act out? Did I cry? Right? These are all ways of getting your needs met, which, by the way, as children, that makes sense. We cry in order to get the attention of our parents so our needs are met. Right. And so if that was the only way we got our needs met as children, that protective mechanism is still going to come up when we're adults. And so all it's saying is like, oh, I'm really scared of being abandoned. There are some wounds coming up. And it's going into the autopilot.

Yeah. Which is these behaviors that you may not like about yourself now. But if you didn't engage in those behaviors as a child, what would have happened? Right. I mean, it's like obviously none of us know 100%, but it's like realistically speaking. I mean, we were talking about this. I have like, you know, I can't tell you how many people. people will be like, no, no, no, my childhood was perfect.

No, I didn't have any issues. I don't know what you're talking about. This came when I was 25 and I dated a really bad guy. And it's like, no, it came out then. You're right. Oh, yeah. That's when you saw it. Yeah.

But it's like, for me, even we all know that with my dad and the way things were, it's like, it's not a surprise. I am the way I am. But even something as simple as like I was telling you earlier, I asked my mom, the running joke when I was a kid was that I used to throw up all the time. And my sister, everybody, they all knew it. And my dad would joke and be like, yeah, I would give you to your mother. because I'd be like, at the time.

And he was like, I'd just pass the buck and I would leave. And I was like, okay. And I asked my mom, I said, what happened before I threw up? I was like, was it food or anything? She was like, no, you would cry. And I had just stopped. And I was like, you didn't think that that was me. I was like, I was literally crying so hard because my father chucked me over and was like,

that I'm done with her and was leaving. And I was like, even as an infant, I wasn't even fucking crawling yet. I was two months old. I had learned already if I cry enough and I outwardly express something, I throw up, oh, somebody's going to come in and save me. Someone's going to come get me. And it's like even behaviors like that, then what happened? My nervous system was like, oh, okay, here we go.

And as a child, that's really brilliant. Because if you didn't cry, if you didn't find ways of, you know, maybe intensifying the crying to get attention, your needs would not be met. Totally. And way worse things would happen. Yeah, as a baby, my perception probably was, oh, my parents are never going to come back. That's it. My dad walked out. My mom left me. I'm done. Yeah. And so because we don't know. And by the way, you need also emotional support as a baby. And so if your parents are not giving it and

being a child, our children are brilliant. They're like, okay, well, if I cry harder, then I get it. We need emotional support, physical support. We need all of that. Those are basic needs. And so you found the ways to get those needs met. And if you didn't, you would be worse off now. Because those needs would not be met at all had you not done that as a child, right? And so it worked. And so yes, as a adults, those behaviors aren't autopilot. Your nervous system thinks, hey, if you needed that when you were two years old, you're probably still going to need that, right? Because think about it. If we were living in the wild and a tiger jumped out, we were two, there's still a threat of a tiger 20 years later. That's not true in the modern world. Your childhood could be very different

than your life now, but your nervous system does not know that. So again, it's a really brilliant coping mechanism. And so to me, that is the start of like, wow, that's really brilliant. I did that as a child. And that actually helped me survive. That was actually really important for my survival. And yes, I'm still doing that, but only because I haven't maybe yet found other effective ways. But it is pointing to, oh, there's that a wound coming up, an abandonment wound, right? Like you said it right away. When that person is acting way, there's a part of me coming up that feels abandoned. Right. And so instead of judging and shaming ourselves for being broken, it's like, I'm not broken. My nervous system is reacting to a really painful wound being touched on.

You know, when it comes to like triggers, I always, I think the visual helps, but I like to think about it as like an internal wound. Yeah. Like in the same way that if I cut your arm, you would have like a gash. It's the same thing happens when we experience trauma, which we all experience, by the way, little T trauma. We all have it. It's an internal wound that is just sitting there unhealed, right? And when we get triggered, it's like someone pressed on that internal wound. And think about it.

If you have like a gash on your right arm, but not your left. If I poked your left arm, you'd be like, why are you? on that you look at me a little funny but you wouldn't respond much right but if i poked your arm with the same intensity where the gash was you would have a really intense reaction why because it hurts it feels like it's happening all over again and you need to get loud to alert people to not touch it right so the same thing happens when in in relationship right when those behaviors come up an internal wound is being pressed on and you're getting loud in an attempt to protect yourself because it hurts so bad Yeah.

And so that's why your response is disproportionate. It seems disproportionate because you shouldn't respond much when I poke you on the arm, but it's not disproportionate if you're recognizing there's an open wound that I just dug my finger into. It's like, the pinch doesn't match the out. If you're like, wait a minute. All right. So the guy didn't text you, but you went fucking that shit crazy and text him 7,000 times in 12 minutes. It's like, we're missing something here.

Right. Right. Because there is something so much deeper here than just that surface. the person didn't text you. And by the way, I think shaming yourself in that moment is a cop out. Oh, totally. It's a cop out because you don't have to look at that wound. So I know that that's kind of like a harsh language to use here.

But I'm here for it. But it's true. It's like it's easier to blame and point fingers even at yourself than it is to say, to get curious and to say, wait, what's coming up? What's the internal wound that I have not wanted to look at or have not been able to look at for probably decades that is being triggered here? That is much harder than to blame and shame yourself and tell yourself you're broken and, you know, say you're going to meditate every day or whatever you tell yourself from a place of shame, not from a place of understanding curiosity and a desire to grow and the deservingness to grow and heal. Shame reminds me of like my other sin.

I have so many things that you say that I love. The explanation or excuse. It's like shame sounds like the excuse of just like, oh, well, okay, you can do that versus the explanation is like, let's go deeper. And listen, I'm going to be real here for a second, and I'm sure you can relate to this. I get a lot of people that will come to me for sessions and be like, I'm ready to do it. Let's go, let's go. And then the second you even remotely remove a layer of the band-aid, I didn't even fucking

touch the wound. It's, nope, this is way too painful. I got to go. Because it's easier to live in. Well, I'm just fucked up. It's just me. I'm messed up. And that's why I have this versus, okay, this is going to be really uncomfortable,

but it's worth it. A hundred percent and it's wild, but it's true. People would rather believe they are broken and go in circles than to acknowledge, I am whole, because I am whole comes with a lot of responsibility. And people don't like that. No. Right? I am whole comes with, if I'm whole, then the power is in my hands.

I could heal. Right? And that puts a lot of personal responsibility. And most of us are terrified by that, you know, like to some, degree, it's, there's an ease to kind of that victim consciousness. There's an ease to saying, hey, it's not my responsibility. I just got fucked up at a young age or I'm just broken or I don't know what it is. It just is. Yeah. And just to keep asking why questions where why me, why am I like this? That is so much easier than taking responsibility and asking the important

questions, the what and how questions. What does this really mean? What is this showing me? How can I move forward. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So I was going to say for somebody that might be more shame-based, or, you know, I get that a lot. It's like just kind of ruminating in that world. Would your recommendation be to switch from the wise to the how and the what? Kind of. That would almost be a little bit of like a step two because sometimes the shame is really overwhelming. Now, we have to talk about shame that when shame is an incredibly overwhelming emotion. Shame is an emotion that is meant to be felt with others. We really need the support of others to feel shame, right? We need support and co-regulation. And when we're feeling it alone, it very quickly

drops us into dorsal. And dorsal being the state of immobilization. It's our nervous system keeping us safe by just disassociating disconnecting because the pain is so overwhelming. I mean, even think about too, shame growing up, how people, stop crying. Stop, you know, how you were conditioned that it's, to shame, to make you feel bad for feeling the way you do. So it's not a surprise that in your adult life after your entire fucking childhood and everything in between that there's a little you being like, ha ha, oh yeah, 100%. A hundred percent. And you could, you could shame yourself into acting a certain way, but there's so much emotion beneath that and it's just festering and it creates all of these different problems, right? So the fact that we go into that dorsal

state, we need to acknowledge it because once we're in that dorsal state, it's very hard to get out, which is where regulating comes in a little bit of like getting your head above water. right to kind of even be able to like explore these things or ask those questions because when you're in dorsal you're not going to be able to ask those questions you're just you're disassociating yeah and i would love to because i'm curious the rest of your answer but then i would love you to explain the ladder of the dorsal because i think that would be really beneficial for people here because i'm still learning it too yes how to identify it but anyways anyway i would love to finish that thought of like when someone's shame based yeah and so so first you need to get yourself

out of that dorsal state even a little bit because if you're in that that state you won't be able to ask the questions. And so I could tell you ask better questions, but I need to be honest with you. You won't be able to when you're in that state. So we got to regulate a little bit, be a little bit more present in our bodies and then start getting curious, really start getting curious of how is this behavior that I see as broken or in need of being fixed? How is actually serving me? How is it protecting me? Right? Because that that is where I think we start opening the door to curiosity a little bit. And then we could start asking. asking better questions. And I love the idea of like, just if you take nothing from this other than

trying to change your questions, you will see, you will see results in your life. I will say that. And if you go from asking why questions, which is what most people, most of us ask, why me? Why is this happening? Why? We ask why questions, which there is a little bit of a feeling of like, I'm the victim. Yeah. Yeah. I was about to say it keeps you in victim mentality. It keeps you a victim mentality. Why is this happening to me? It's like, no, it's happening for you. It's a to me. Why is a to me mindset? Yeah. Right. And it is, it's a little bit of like a victim consciousness, right? And so when we change the questions to what and how, it invites more curiosity. And there's less, less accusation. And especially when we're feeling shame, a why question? Oh, like that, that hurts. Yeah. You know, like even if I'm talking to you and you did something like, why did you do that? You're right. You could sense a little bit of accusation. I might have not meant it. But you could sense it, right? Versus what made you do that? Yeah. What came up for? Yeah. So also even thinking of how questions of how did that make you feel, right? Those kind of questions have so much more curiosity and have so much more compassion. Right. So maybe if you take nothing else away from this, just try changing your questions a little bit. It is really powerful. But just remember, if you're in that dorsal state, asking different questions will feel very, very difficult. And that makes complete sense. Right. We working with the mindset is ineffective until we're in a more regulated state. And I just have to. to be honest about that because I love mindset hacks, but then a lot of people are like,

I know all the hacks. Why am I not doing them? It's because your nervous system is dysregulated and you don't have access to that. Yeah. And what are your, I know we've gone over some techniques, but even just a quick couple of things that you love, like when you're disregulated in that moment and you're trying. So it's like, what would you recommend to somebody? You know, if they're like, I can't meditate right now. It's like, yeah, no shit. You're on the edge of the cliff. How do we bring you off? Yeah. And so maybe this would be a good place for me to explain the ladder a little bit. 100%. Right. So the nervous system has to. three distinct states, right? It has one state of safety. We call this ventral vagal, and this is where

you stay safe through connection. This is where we feel connected to ourselves. Our body is working optimally. We have the ability to connect with others. Our prefrontal cortex is on, meaning executive functioning is available, long-term decision-making, creativity, all of that good stuff that makes us who we are, that makes us, you know, that our gifts is accessible to us in that state of safety. Now, we have two states of survival. In these states, states your body is both of them, your body is not functioning optimally, 50% max, and your prefrontal cortex that executive functioning really offline. On top of that, in both states of dysregulation, which I'll explain in a second, you do not

have the ability to connect with yourself or others, right? Because think about it, if you were running from a tiger, you don't need to be like, ooh, how does my body feel right now? It's like, no, just freaking run. Exactly. And the same way, it's like, oh, what is he feeling? No, you need to run. Yeah. Right. So we are not able to connect with ourselves or others in dysregulation for good reason. Right. So just keep that in mind. Body not functioning optimally. Prefrontal cortex kind of offline. And you're not able to connect with yourself or others. Now there's two different states of survival.

The one we're all familiar with is fighter flight and we call it sympathetic. In the state, basically you just have too much mobilizing energy. Your body is felt a threat and it is preparing you to run or fight from that tiger. So it is just mobilizing your whole body. Every organ. system is mobilizing. Your thoughts are mobilizing, your digestion, your immune system. Everything is changing in order to help you run from this tiger or fight this tiger, right? Everything changes. In the state, you're not able to connect with others. You can't even perceive others correctly. So you are more likely to interpret a neutral tone as dangerous, a neutral facial expression is dangerous. You have that negativity bias, right? So that's one state, sympathetic, too much mobilizing energy and your

body just wants to get it out because it wants to run from the tiger. The other state is called dorsal vagal. And in this state, we try to stay safe by immobilizing. So the other one was mobilizing. Now we're immobilizing. Basically, our body playing dead. So in this state, we feel exhausted. We feel drained. We start disconnecting. You know, you might have heard people say, I felt like I was out of my body watching myself. That's that disassociation. We disconnect from our emotions. We disconnect from our bodies because it's just too painful and overwhelming. We're preparing to die. And so if we're going to die, it's going to be painful, our nervous is protecting us by disconnecting us as much as possible or conserving energy in case we might be able to make a run for it. So it's suppressing that energy if we have like a

little window where we could run from that tiger. I was going to say can you be both? Like so if you have, if you're more dorsal, can you then get sympathetic when you're about to run type things? Yeah. That's exactly what happens. It's like once you drop into dorsal, all that sympathetic energy didn't go away. Remember, we were just in sympathetic. It's a ladder. Okay. So you do move up and down. It's not like you're in one and you're fixed. Yes, exactly. So thank you for pointing that out. So these three phases, they're a ladder at the very top is ventral. You're safe. Then if you pick up a threat, you go into sympathetic, body mobilizes. And then if it gets really overwhelming, right, if the threat is too big, you can't fight it, you go into dorsal. So you stay safe

by immobilizing. Now, all that energy from sympathetic just got pushed down. And so if you do get a window to run away from that tiger, you will first move to sympathetic. Yeah. Right. All that energy that was suppressed comes forward. It gives you a push to get away from that tiger. Right. Imagine the tiger caught you and then put you down for a second because I thought you were dead. All that energy comes up. You use it to go and sympathetic.

You run and then you move up to safety. So it's a ladder. We're moving up and down. So yeah, in that dorsal state where immobilized, we're collapsed, we're not present in our body. Now, depending on which state you're in, sympathetic or dorsal, state of mobilization or immobilization, I would want you to use different tools. or to use your tools differently to move out of it. So if you're in sympathetic, you have too much mobilizing energy.

Anxiety is energy. Anxiety is just too much mobilizing energy. Your body wants to run from a tiger, and you're trying to tell it to sit at your desk and focus on your emails. Right. And your body does not want to do that because it thinks there's a tiger behind you. Right. So rightfully so, it does not like sitting still,

and you're getting all the messages of, get the fuck up, do something. Or text them. Exactly. Text them. Go clean. Go walk around. Go paste. Right.

Like, we've all done something. And so, so yeah, that isn't sympathetic. Too much mobilizing energy. So what we want to do here is get that energy out of your body. So this is where you want to move, you want to jump, you want to dance. You want to make your body think you are running from the tiger. That is the simplest way I could put it. Make your body think you're running from that tiger.

Yeah. Right? Then it's going to be able to feel safe until your body thinks you ran from the tiger, it will not feel safe. Yeah. And let's clarify too. This isn't a means for distraction. This doesn't just mean, oh, okay, I'm feeling this great. So I'm going to go to the gym for two hours.

It's like, no. We're talking about doing something that is maybe a few minutes to be able to come back to doing the second part. So I just like to clarify that. So people think, I'm just going to go on a walk. It's like make it a mindful walk. You know, like be more intentionality. The intention behind it is important.

You have to have the intention of I'm getting energy out of my body. Now that I'm still replaying the situation over and over and over and creating more dysregulation because your thoughts could do that. Yeah. Right. And so, yes, you need to get that out of your body. intentionally. It might take five minutes. It might take a little longer, but it's a process of kind of like, ooh, do I still feel the energy? Okay, maybe I need to keep walking. Maybe I need to dance.

Maybe I need to turn on some loud music, right? Like you're constantly checking in with your body. You're not just in your head and thinking it's going to go away. You are trying to get into your body. That is the whole point. Yeah. Now, if you're a dorsal, which is where shame often sends us, because shame is so overwhelming. It's not an emotion we could really handle on our own. And so we shut down and immobilized, dissociate, disconnect in order to protect ourselves. because otherwise it's actually too painful. Yeah. Right.

And so when we're in dorsal, what I want you to do is bring a gentle return to energy. So you want to start slowly coming back into your body. You want to try not to do too much because if you tell yourself, if you give yourself like a very big thing to do,

it's actually going to make you feel more shame and overwhelm and you're going to become too dorsal. And this is the mistake people make up, I'm going to go for a run now. It's like, you probably don't have the energy to go for a run. It might be, I'm going to sit up and change my posture.

I'm going to place my hands on my body. right i'm going to connect with my breath it's very very small things and each time you do it the intention of okay am i feeling a little more present what am i feeling a sensation coming back into my body and this could be taking deep breaths it could be changing your posture it could be very slow gentle intentional movement it could also be using your senses so kind of connecting with your senses what is something i could feel i like to use the five four three two one it's a really common yeah practice mindfulness practice five things you could see four things you could feel, three things you could hear, two things you could smell and one thing

you could taste, right? So you're coming back to your senses. We're trying to come back into the body because in dorsal, we're not in our bodies. Right. So those are kind of some things I want you to think about if you're in those states. Oh man, I love that. I think this is, there's a lot of really, really, really, really beneficial information, I think especially for the people that are, you know, and I get it. Like, I've been that where you're so, like, you don't get the text from somebody or you text them and you don't get an answer to where it literally felt like there was a balloon that was going to explode at me like as if my my chest was so tight where you're like I don't know what to do and it's frantic and it's like then I would see friends and they'd be like whoa do are you

okay because you're running you're tripping over yourself it's like you're so disconnected and I think even just something as simple as like coming back to yourself finding way like I loved ice you know holding ice cubes it's like just something to shock my system into like I bid you're back Like we are here. And I think that's something that I hope, if anybody is taking anything from this entire 45 minutes that we're talking is the shame, the turning the why into a water or how. And really a lot of these things stem back to a lot of disconnection. A lot of being outside of. And that's why it's like, okay, well, then when you're disconnected, then you're trying to figure out, why is he doing this?

Why is this person doing this? Why are you acting this way? I need to play detective. And it's like you're doing even more to disconnect from your own shit. Yeah. Yes. And I think that's a really great point. And something to really take away here is when this is happening, when you're feeling triggered and like the energy is just too much. And I completely understand what you're saying. You're so right. It's so overwhelming. It's heavy. It's very, very heavy. And I think we have a tendency to either blame and point fingers at others or equally as bad, if not worse, point fingers at ourselves and blame and shame. And so if you take anything away from what I'm saying is I'd want you to not see that a something shameful as to get curious about your responses and triggers of like how are they protecting me if i really consider that i am whole that i'm not broken that my nervous system is working really really well what is actually happening here and just to remove that layer of shame because knowing that if you're

already triggered and your wounds are coming up and now on top of that you shame yourself for being triggered that's a recipe for disaster so we could just remove that additional layer of shame of oh my gosh i can't believe i'm acting this way i need to stop i need to fix this and instead getting curious about it and understanding no this my nervous system is working as intended must feel it feels really awful yes but my nervous system is working exactly as it was designed and now i need to bring curiosity and compassion to that right and then that i find kind of the door cracks open where you're like okay could i try those five you know the mindfulness practices of the five senses could i try moving could I try reaching out to a friend?

Then you could start to use these little tools that I gave you to try to move up the ladder a little bit. And then once you're there, yeah, let's ask different questions. Let's get support. Let's befriend ourselves in a deeper way, really connecting to the inner child. All of that is accessible once we've regulated a little bit more back into that ventral place. And now we could do some deeper healing.

Oh, man, I love it. So for anybody listening, this is what we're learning in the course. And you can imagine listening to Masha for an hour plus. It's like it's eye opening. It's profound. It's so much stuff from like, oh my God, it all fucking makes sense. It makes, like my mom always says, it works if you work it. So Masha, thank you again for such an amazing episode.

I mean, I like, we're at the 45 minutes. That's why I'm like, we could keep going. But as you guys know, Masha is our resident now. So she's going to be on, I would say probably once a month. I think that's a good cadence to continue to help and to continue to educate and to continue to bestow so much wisdom on everybody. So thank you again for joining us. Guys, if anybody needs Masha, everything's going to be linked to the show notes. You can join the program. And if there's any last parting words that you wanted to say, please educate. No, I am just so honored to be a

resident guest. And I'm so excited to be back. And I've just loved this conversation. I just think it's really so important for people to know that they are not broken and that the shame is actually the problem and that all these things that we think are a problem with us are actually a solution. and the more we could understand that, the more we open the door to healing. And I just think you do such a great job at helping people see that. And so I'm just so grateful for your work. Likewise. I'm grateful for you.

Guys, and I'm grateful for you. Thank you for another fucking amazing episode of Do the Work. And guys, until next time.