The Sabrina Zohar Show - 206: Avoidants: Did You Mean Anything To Them? What's Really Going On After A Breakup

Starting point is 00:00:00 Six weeks after the breakup, you're in your car crying and they're at brunch. Three months out, you're still not sleeping and they have a new person. And a year later, you're finally coming up for air and that's the week they text you out of nowhere saying they miss you. Or maybe you just never fucking heard from them again. And every single one of you has asked some version of the same question. Are they actually fine? Do they ever feel it? Were they always going to leave?

Starting point is 00:00:22 Avoidant discard is hard as shit. And this is part two of four in this breakup series. Last week was anxious. Today is avoidant. And today is the episode that answers the question you have been asking yourself at 3 a.m. for months. What is actually happening inside this person? Are they okay? And did they ever love me?

Starting point is 00:00:36 But baby, here's what I'm going to tell you. And I want you to hear it crystal fucking clear before we start. The research has an answer. It's not the answer you want. It's not the answer they'd give you. And it's not the answer most attachment content gives you because most content either makes avoidance out to be secretly suffering angels or cold sociopaths. And neither of those is true. The truth is more specific, more measurable.

Starting point is 00:00:55 And honestly, more interestingly, neither of those. So let's fucking go. Hello, hello, hello! And welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. I'm sorry, I can't keep it in. Can you guys see what's next to me? Did you see the book?

Starting point is 00:01:14 So my book came out. Well, it's on pre-sale right now, but it's official. You guys can see it. I've been waiting for this day. I've been waiting, I've been waiting, and I'm so excited because you guys are my babes and I get to share it with you. Thank you guys.

Starting point is 00:01:28 Thank you for believing me to the point. that we're here right now together. And I'm so fucking grateful. And today we're going to have a really great episode because I think to me, baby, this is a biggie. I know you guys ask constantly, right? And I think to me, this episode is for two people. If you were broken up with an avoidant, right?

Starting point is 00:01:45 Or if you broke up with them and they seemed fine while you fell apart, this is for you. If you're avoidant and you're listening because something in you is starting to wake up and you don't know what to do with it, that this is also for you. So today we're going to do four things. I'm going to explain what deactivation

Starting point is 00:01:56 actually isn't the nervous system because the word get thrown around and most people don't know what the fuck it means. I'm going to tell you about a study that put this under experimental conditions and the result is exactly what every anxious ex has suspected but could never prove. I'm going to explain why they come back, if they even, and why coming back is almost never what you think it means. And go back and listen to the episode from a couple of months ago of do they always come back. That'll help. And then I'm going to answer the question everyone asks, which is can they change?

Starting point is 00:02:20 And honestly, without the false hope and without the doom. And baby, as always, stay until the end because the tool of the week is one of the most important things I could give to anyone who is ever loved and avoided. It's not about changing them. It's about what you do with your own mind while you're trying to heal from loving one. And guys, please don't forget to rate and review the podcast. Leave a comment, even if it's something as simple as a heart, share it with your friends. That's how we grow this community because the reality is there are people that are coming in and out every day. Some of you guys are finding the relationships that you deserve and saying, baby, I don't need this anymore.

Starting point is 00:02:50 I'm moving on to greener pastures. And then some of you are going, hey, first day here or somewhere anywhere in between. And so do I curse a lot? I sure do. Do I speak fast? you bet you could slow the speed down. You want ad free? Subscribe or fast forward through four ads or support our sponsors that help keep the show free. And ultimately, please don't forget to pre-order. Why am I like this? You now, if you go to the website at Sabrinizara.com, you will see

Starting point is 00:03:11 where you can submit your receipt and you get a course as a thank you, only if you presale. Once presales are over, you do not get the course, my babies. But that is my way of saying thank you because it's the only way I could get the New York Times list. And really quick, before I move on from the intro, to the person that left me a comment saying that I spoke too much, about my first book, right? The first motherfucking book I have ever written that I spoke about it three times for a total of, I think it was 64 seconds in an entire 40-minute episode. My message to you is, get fucked. This is something I am not going to shut the fuck up about because I've never been prouder of anything that I have ever done in my entire life besides what I wrote in that book. So the point where my father's probably going to fucking disown me when he reads that book, and that's okay. I did that for me, for you, for everybody, because we all deserve to be seen. We all deserve to be heard and understood. And I am so fucking tired of on my own show having to apologize for taking up space and celebrating wins, sharing the reality of life. And I'm going to stop doing that today because we're in this together. And if that works for you, fuck yeah, let's do this together. And if not, that's okay too. But you get to make a choice.

Starting point is 00:04:12 And that's one that you get to make. But you don't need to leave a wake of destruction. It's not a fucking airport. You don't have to announce your departure. You can just make that choice for yourself. And I value and think that's really awesome. But no, I'm not going to stop talking about this because I've never been more proud of something I've done in my life. And I am so excited for you guys to get it. Please let me know if you pre-order. Let me know what you think when you get it. And thank you, as always, for being here.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Thank you for letting me take up the space and be on my ADHD loops and start to repeat myself and do the same stuff because I'm a human. And like I get to show up like that. So the fuck do you. And guys, if you want to work with me or join one of the courses, everything's at Sabrinazohar.com. You can pre-order the book. You could do anything that you want there or you could just be here.

Starting point is 00:04:52 We got a couple of free guides and a quiz, got all that stuff. So just doing my due diligence and soon enough I'll be announcing my tour. So stay tuned. And if you're in the city, if I don't fucking get a hug from you, I will take it as a personal offense. All right, friends, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Hi, friends. Oh, I'm excited. I'm sorry, I'm still, like, not getting over the book.

Starting point is 00:05:13 I still haven't processed that it's sitting right the buck next to me. And I'm just over the moon. I have personally been struggling with my own mental health and feeling like, Am I enough? Can I do this? Right? You are not the only person that has core beliefs. And I try to normalize that. Not because I need anything from you. I genuinely am not asking for anything besides the space to be able to share that. That frankly speaking, I'm terrified about this book coming out. I am so scared about my dad reading. Well, please, he's not going to fucking read it. I'm scared about him finding out about it. I'm scared about what the world is going to think. I'm scared about the judgment. But I'm also

Starting point is 00:05:46 excited for maybe, maybe for one person if this changes their life. I did my job. If one one person feels seen, hurt, or understood, I've done my job. And if one of you can feel less alone, that's really all I've been asking for, because for a long time, I felt really alone, especially with the topic that we're going to hit today, which is the avoidant breakup. And I really wanted to do this series. I thought it would be fun. We're going to have more series. I think series are just my favorite aspect because it lets us build off of things. And don't forget to listen to all of them. I know maybe not every episode pertains to you, but I hope that you guys at the very least, market is finished. But at the very least, just be here and even just like try to tune in when

Starting point is 00:06:25 you can. But that's okay either way. But I think today, this is one we're going to need. And so let me start here. Avoid an attachment is not the absence of feeling. And I think that to me is the single biggest misconception in all the attachment content. It's the one that keeps anxious exes spiraling for years after a breakup trying to figure out what the fuck they were dealing with, what it actually is. And we have episodes on avoid an attachment, anxious attachment, if you guys want more on like what it actually is. Today we're talking about the breakup component of it. Attachment researchers call it a term called deactivation. And so deactivation is a set of strategies the nervous system runs to keep attachment needs offline. Not because the needs aren't there, because the needs

Starting point is 00:07:04 feel dangerous. You have to remember too, right, your lived experience with anxiety doesn't mean that that's everybody else's. For me, it wasn't necessarily a safe space, but I took up space. My sister, on the other hand, she goes inwards. She's learning now how to become more expressive and share. But historically, she went inwards because it wasn't safe for her. So it was easier to shut her needs off, right, people please and just go down and fawn and do, than it was to say, wait a minute, I need to take up space that doesn't work for me. And if you're avoidantly attached somewhere earlier in your life, getting close to people registered as unsafe, and maybe a parent was inconsistent, maybe emotional expression got punished or ignored. Again, it doesn't mean that we need the big

Starting point is 00:07:41 tease. It doesn't need to be that you had the piece of shit parent. I'm not saying that, but you learned this somewhere, right? Usually when I ask, we had Judith's up, a couple of weeks ago, the live coaching, and we're going to do more. I loved it. It was really fun. And when I asked her, like, where did you learn that from? Everything was to her dad. And then she realized, wait a minute, actually, my mom taught me a lot of that, too. Doesn't mean that they're bad people. You guys know, I will set myself on fire for my mom. I love that woman more than life itself. But she taught me that my needs don't matter and not to take up space and to play small and that you're a burden. And that's not the life I want to live. And I think what we have to hold on to is that your lived experience isn't everybody else's. And maybe. And Maybe closeness was suffocating or it was unpredictable or it came with strings, right? Whatever the specific origin, the nervous system learned that the safest move around attachment needs is to turn them down, way down. And that turning down has a shape. It's not just like, I don't feel things, right? And that's what I mean by there's a lot of this misconception on the internet of like avoidance are assholes and they feel nothing.

Starting point is 00:08:37 It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Just in the same that anxious folk are avoidant, avoidant folks are also anxious. Avoidant folk shut down. They get really in their head. They start to hyperfixate. They can maybe go in their spirals and their loops. That doesn't mean that they're maybe just not feeling anything. They just don't know how to express that.

Starting point is 00:08:51 And for others, they just suppress it so heavily. They deactivate so that they don't have to deal with it because dealing with why they hurt you means that they have to also deal with their own pain. And for some people, that's too much. And I don't want to hear this bullshit of like, look, they're assholes and they're dickheads. Then you just don't understand it. Because it's the same with my anxious folk that go outward, but you're not actually sitting with yourself.

Starting point is 00:09:10 It's not actually about them anymore that as much as it is about you. And what the research shows is it involves specific moves, suppressing attachment-related thoughts. So avoiding situations that would activate the system, which is why they remove themselves, dismissing the importance of the relationship so that they can downplay it, cognitively dissoning from threats, focusing on self-reliance, defensively shifting attention when something emotional comes up. These are documented patterns. This doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with them, but those are the patterns. This episode is sponsored by Cheers. You know what I wish somebody had warned me about? But as I started getting older into my 30s

Starting point is 00:09:43 and going out and having a glass of wine with my friends or on a date, that it was going to to wreck me. I wish I knew, and thanks to my whoop for telling me that my sleep is never great the next day. I feel groggy and foggy, and I'm just exhausted, and that's why I love cheers, especially, baby, you're going on a date, you want to have a great night. Well, don't forget to take a cheers when you get home. Maybe their claim to fame is feel 50% better or your money back, so you wake up feeling like you drink roughly half the amount. Cheers Restore helps you metabolize alcohol more efficiently and supports overall liver health. Most people think it's dehydration is why you feel rough, but the real issue is what happens in your brain and liver while you sleep. So take Cheers

Starting point is 00:10:19 Restore after your last drink or before going to bed and wake up feeling at least 50% better or your money back. For a limited time, our listeners are getting 20% off their entire order by using code Sabrina at CheersHealth.com. Just head to Cheershealth.com and use code Sabrina for 20% off. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show, the Sabrina Zohar show, and tell them we send. you. Now, here's the piece that matters for the breakup. When an avoidant person leaves a relationship, the deactivation system keeps running. That's why they look fine. The post-breakup period for the first weeks and sometimes months is actually less distressing for avoidance than anyone else on average.

Starting point is 00:10:59 There was a 2019 study on bereaved adults by Chen and colleagues, where they measured both inflammation markers and self-reported grief symptoms in recently bereaved people. So people hire in attachment avoidance reported less grief, better mental health, and better physical health in the acute period. I said the acute period, baby, it's measurable. They're not just performing like, no, I'm fine. They register is fine on many, many measures in the early weeks. And the reason I want you to sit with that is because most of you have been told by a well-meeting friend

Starting point is 00:11:31 or a piece of content that your ex is secretly devastated and that they're, oh, they're dealing with it. Statistically, they probably weren't at first. That is real. The feeling that you had that they didn't care as much as you did in the first weeks was accurate. It wasn't imagined. It's not you being paranoid. That was actually measurable. That's what I mean by like, okay, we can hold two conflicting thoughts. They can seem like this. And maybe they just haven't processed it. Like there was a video I did many moons ago. And it was a girl saying, me when I'm going through the breakup, while my avoidant four weeks later feels nothing. And I was

Starting point is 00:12:01 like, you might think they don't feel anything. And maybe in that moment, I'm like, they don't because they kick the can. Remember, if they're trained to avoid feeling, then after a breakup, the last thing they're going to try to do is feel. But here's where it got interesting. And this is the part that almost no fucking content talks about. Deactivation is not free. It does cost something. It's a constant cognitive effort, even when the person doesn't feel it as effort. And there's research showing exactly what happens when the effort can no longer be sustained, which is where we're going to go in the next heart of this whole thing. But before I do that, and before we go there, if you're the anxious act trying to make sense of what happened, or if you're the avoided listening

Starting point is 00:12:36 and starting to realize that you've been doing this for longer than you want to admit, the healthy dating foundation is the course. It's where I teach the actual framework for recognizing these patterns in yourself and in your partner before you're three years into something that you have to rebuild. The link is in the show notes, especially if you're single right now. This is the season to do the work, baby. It's hard to do it while managing someone else's fucking nervous system. So check that out if you need it or the art of going slow course if you guys want something a little bit more to help you to understand pacing. So let's go into like the cognitive load because I think this is the interesting part for me as I was doing my research on

Starting point is 00:13:08 this episode because I really want to normalize that like you're allowed to be hurt. It's so funny. I was talking about, you know me. I talk about the avoidant discard, the avoidant discard. You're not a fucking Tomogachi. Someone didn't discard you and just get rid of you. They broke up with you. Until this morning, I got discarded. I did.

Starting point is 00:13:25 I did. I finally was able to use the term, but it was by an anxious person. A really, really, really, really, really, really, anxious and insecure client that I've been working with for about two and a half years. And I'm no longer the shiny object. Found somebody new, didn't like that I said something. For the first time, I stood up and was just like, hey, no, I'm not going to. to hide this anymore. Like, this is not okay, especially after learning some other stuff and being like,

Starting point is 00:13:47 oh, this isn't normal. This isn't healthy. Like, I'm now seeing too much. I can't just turn my head. I'm not a good coach if I don't say it. And this person ended up canceling all their appointments with me, unfollowing me, all of this, all because I didn't tell them what they wanted to hear. And I got dropped like a bad habit. Literally, not even didn't break up with me, didn't say, hey, by the way, I need a minute or, hey, you know what, something. Nope, just that's it. on to the next and already found their new shiny object. And I stopped and I was like, oh, okay, this is the discard. It's not like, if somebody breaks up with you and is like, hey, I think you're lovely, I'm not feeling it, right?

Starting point is 00:14:20 Even to something as simple as I can't do this, I'm sorry. At the very least, you're like, okay, but when you wake up and realize, wait, that person had followed me and they canceled all my plans and I just never heard from this person, like essentially getting ghosted by this person, that to me is being discarded because you're like, I meant nothing to you. you just, boop, don't want to deal with that anymore, especially after you've been in a relationship with somebody. So I completely, completely understand when you use the terminology I got discarded. But I wanted to hold space because I think there's a difference in the avoided discard. Avoidant discard to me is when you think everything's great, everything's fine, and all of a sudden, that's it. Like, they just start canceling all their plans. They do the slow fade and you're like, oh, that's it.

Starting point is 00:15:01 You're just done with me. You see them out with another person the next week and you're like, oh, were you going to have the conversation with me? Were you even going to tell me versus a breakup is a breakup, right? Somebody comes to you and says, listen, I think you're amazing. I can't do this. I'm sorry. I'm not able to show up for you in that way. That's a breakup.

Starting point is 00:15:17 That's somebody telling you at the very fucking lease. And so I just like to be able to hold the space because I hear a lot of you guys being like, they discarded me. And it's like, I need to understand how long you're with this person and what that actually means because that's then taking up mental real estate that you're not worth anything. And I had to challenge that. I had to sit there and I was like, what am I, am I not worth something? Is there something wrong with me? And I was like, no, girl, you said something that pissed that person off. And instead of them having a conversation, they just up and left.

Starting point is 00:15:43 Because that's the other side of the coin. The avoidant person, yeah, you're right. They might dip. You know what the anxious person is? They're impulsive. You're impulsive, right? Fuck it. I'm blocking them.

Starting point is 00:15:52 They didn't answer me in 20 minutes. I'm unfollowing. Whoops. Oh, wait. He just texts me. Never mind. Just kidding. She doesn't like me.

Starting point is 00:15:59 I knew it. Oh, whoops. They just text me. There's that impulsivity. And so it's the same of that reaction of, I'm not safe. I have to do it. something immediately in the same way that the avoidance says, I'm not safe I need to remove myself. And I like to give you both sides of the coin so that you understand that the work-lived experience

Starting point is 00:16:15 shows up differently. But if we take it personally about us, then that means that then we have to look at how we believe about ourselves. This episode is sponsored by Bull and Branch. As I've gotten older, I have really, really prioritized my sleep. If I don't get the proper rest, then I am just not going to be fully functioning the next day in the way that I need. And that included upgrading all of our bedding, our pillows, and just, just everything that we possibly could to give ourselves the best night rest.

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Starting point is 00:17:39 Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Wayfair, every style, every home. So here's the study. I want every single person who has loved and avoided to know about. So it's from McElincer. Mickelencer. I mean, it's a mouthfulode of that name.

Starting point is 00:17:53 Miclincor, Doliv, and Shaver. And it was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2004. Here's what they did. They brought participants into the lap. They measured their attachment style. And then they had them think about it. painful breakup. They asked some of them to try to suppress the thoughts. Then they gave them a cognitive task, right? So some of the task was easy, meaning the brain had lots of available

Starting point is 00:18:12 bandwidth. Some of the tasks were hard, meaning the brain was overloaded in another demand at the same time. Then they measured two things, the accessibility of the breakup thoughts and the accessibility of negative self-representations, that I'm not lovable, I'm broken, one of those types things, types of beliefs. No one stays, yada yada, and here's what they found. Under low cognitive load, meaning when the brain has plenty of resources, avoidant participants were excellent at suppressing the breakup thoughts. They did not show the rebound effect that the general population shows when trying to suppress. Their negative self-representation stayed inaccessible. They looked on the data exactly like you would expect an avoidant in person to look completely fine. But under high cognitive load, meaning when the brain

Starting point is 00:18:52 was tired, busy, taxed, running other programs, the suppression failed. So the breakup thoughts came flooding back. The negative self representations came online. Everything they had been holding back, they could no longer hold back. And I want you to take that in. Because what the study is showing you is that the avoidance suppression is not automatic is quite effortful. It requires ongoing cognitive resources. And when those resources are depleted, the suppression breaks down. The feelings they were not having were not actually there. They were being actively held offline by a process that can only be sustained while the person has the bandwidth to sustain it. This is why so many of you have seen the exact same pattern. They're fine for three months, six months, sometimes a year,

Starting point is 00:19:32 and then something happens. Maybe they got sick, they lost their job, somebody passed away, they moved, they have too much going on, their life gets cognitively overloaded, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they're reaching out. They're texting at 2 a.m. They're saying they think about you. They're saying they made a mistake, and you cannot figure out what change. Nothing changed. Their bandwidth changed. The suppression failed. The thing they were holding back for months came through the door, and they did not know what to do with it. So they reached for the person who used to be these object of these feelings, you. And this is the part that's going to save you months of confusion, baby.

Starting point is 00:20:02 They're not coming back because they've healed. They're coming back because the defense broke. And those are not the same thing. Why does it avoid and come back weeks, months, fucking years later? You think it's because they've changed or realized they've fucked up. But what it actually is is a breakdown of suppression. It's not the same thing as processing grief. It's actually the fucking opposite.

Starting point is 00:20:17 It's the grief that got stored, suddenly flooding a nervous system that doesn't know how to metabolize it. That's why you'll go right back in the cycle because nothing fucking changes, if not nothing changes. Stop accepting low effort bullshit. Which is why if you respond to the reach out, you'll usually see the exact same cycle play out again. They'll close, then they come back. They'll get their suppression back online because that's what the system does when the cognitive load drops again. The moment they have resources to deactivate, they deactivate. The moment they feel safe enough with you that the anxiety drops and the bandwidth returns, the walls come back and you're devastated again. Because you can't figure out what you did.

Starting point is 00:20:50 You didn't fucking do anything wrong. You gave them a regulated nervous system. An irregular The nervous system is exactly what lets their defense system go back online. And the reason I say this isn't because I'm like, oh, you're an angel. You do nothing. And it's all them. But it's about understanding the nervous system. In the same way that you're on their merry-go-round with them if you're having the anxiety. Right, I need them to pick me.

Starting point is 00:21:08 Oh, they come back. I feel okay. Wait, wait, wait, I need them to pick me. Oh, they came back. I'm okay. Both parties are using the other person to calm their nervous system or to that. Because remember, when the avoidant person feels like they're too much and they pull away, that activates, then they feel, okay, I could breathe, which then activates the anxious person

Starting point is 00:21:26 saying, I need to come closer. Then when they get the avoided person back, who, I can breathe. Then the avoidant person gets activated. It's like, whoa, I need to remove myself. That's why both people have to do the work. And maybe read, why am I like this? I don't know, shameless plug, but maybe you could get the book for you and your friends. Nobody really go fucking pre-roar with the book. Why am I like this? All right, baby. So let's talk about the reach out specifically, because almost every anxious listener on this episode that is listening has received one at some point and almost every one of you has misread what the fuck it means. So the research here is pretty consistent.

Starting point is 00:21:55 The 2024 meta analysis by Russ and colleagues looking at attachment and complicated grief confirmed what researchers have suspected for a long time. Avoid an attachment is associated with what's called delayed grief. So suppression in the early period resurfacing later, often months or sometimes years down the line, often when the person is finally still enough to feel what they've been avoiding. When an avoidant reaches out months after a breakup, it's usually one of these three things. And I want you to be able to tell which is why, because confusing them is what keeps you. stuck in the fucking cycle. The first is what we just talked about, a suppression breakdown.

Starting point is 00:22:23 Cognitive load got too high. Defense broke. Feelings came through the door. They don't know what to do with the feelings. So they're reaching out for the most recent object to those feelings. This one looks like the I miss you. I've been thinking about you. Nothing concrete plan. No accountability. It's just the feeling, right? In your inbox for you to metabolize for them. So if you respond with warmth, it feels good for them for a few days. Then their system re-regulates and they disappear yet again. The second is what researchers call the Phantom X phenomenon. So an avoidant, in a new relationship starts feeling the same closeness threat they felt in your relationship. Their deactivation turns on to the new partner.

Starting point is 00:22:56 And while they're deactivating from the new partner, an old partner, who they can safely think about because you're not physically in front of them becomes idealized. The further away you are, the safer you are to feel warm about. So they text you, not because they want you back. Because thinking about you is how they're regulating their distance from the person they're currently with. You're a tool in their management of someone else's closeness. And the third, and this one is the rarest, is the real reach out. and avoidant who has actually done the fucking work, who is in therapy, who has specific grounded acknowledgement of what happened, who is not asking for anything, not asking you for you to forgive

Starting point is 00:23:26 them, not asking for you to come back, just naming clearly what they now understand about what they did because they have finally understood it and feel responsible enough to say it. This is maybe 10%, maybe 10% of the reachouts, maybe less, but it exists and it's worth knowing the shape of. So how can you tell the difference? It's not something you'll find in most content. Look at what they're asking you to do to do. In the first two types, they're asking you to do something for them. feel better for them, validate them, reassure them, receive their feelings so they don't have to hold it. In the third, they're not asking you to do anything. They're just telling you. The ask is the tell. Now, to me, the question underneath everything in this segment, why do you keep responding knowing all this?

Starting point is 00:24:05 What do you think? Oh, I know the answer, right? Because you were an anxious person bonded to a slot machine for months or years and your nervous system still reads their contact as a payout. This is the same pattern we talked about last week, the variable reinforcement schedule. You don't know which reach out will be the real one. So every reach out carries hope and hope is fucking addictive. Here's a reality of an avoidant breakup that you might not want to fucking face. Just because they moved on to someone else doesn't mean that the next person got anything that you didn't. Maybe the next person is more compatible for that. Maybe they're not as anxious and doesn't trigger their fucking avoidance as much.

Starting point is 00:24:34 Maybe that next person just doesn't know them well enough. You know what doesn't matter? Any of that. Focus on you. Focus on how this makes you feel because every time you're trying to compare yourself to who they've moved on to or who they are or did I matter or did I care. It's not actually about the fucking relationship. It's about you making meaning that you actually mattered because somewhere along the way you were taught that you don't. And now I need you to fucking love yourself more than the need for this person to come back and validate your relationship.

Starting point is 00:24:58 They ain't shit, baby. Now focus on you. So to recap, when an avoidant reaches out months after a breakup, it's one of these three things and knowing which one is what breaks a cycle. Number one, suppression breakdown. Cognitive load got too high and their defense cracks. So that could look like, I miss you, I've been thinking about you. There's no plan. There's no accountability. Just the feeling dumped in your fucking inbox. And if you respond warmly, they regulate, then they disappear again.

Starting point is 00:25:18 Welcome to the cycle. Two, Phantom X phenomenon. They're in a new relationship feeling the same closeness threat. So the further away you are, the safer you are to feel warm about. You're not the goal. You're a tool to manage distance from someone else. They're not coming back. They're fucking regulating through you.

Starting point is 00:25:33 And the third, the real reach out. Very rare, maybe 10%. It's specific. It's grounded. It's an acknowledgement of what actually happened. They're not asking forgiveness. They're not asking you back. They're naming what they finally understood.

Starting point is 00:25:44 And how to tell the difference? Type 1 and 2, they're asking you to do something. Feel better for them, validate, reassure. Type 3, they're not asking to do anything they're just telling you. But at the end of the day, baby, I need you to sit with one question. Why do you keep fucking responding? You're an anxious person bonded to a slot machine. Your nervous system reads their contact as payout.

Starting point is 00:26:01 And variable reinforcement schedule, every reach-out carries hope and hope is addictive. Now you get to decide how much more of this are you going to fucking allow. This episode is sponsored by Gooder. I love Gooder so much. I used to actually live by the one in Abit Kinney in Venice, and I used to love going in and trying on all of their frames because gooder sunglasses move with you. So they are the perfect sunny day companion. They have active eyewear, which is a game changer, especially for someone like me who's super active. I'm always out hiking or we're on walks or we're always doing something.

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Starting point is 00:27:01 Head to Gutter.com slash Sabrina Zohar to claim $10 off your first order. That's G-O-O-D-R.com slash Sabrina Zohar. And maybe the work is not figuring out ways to respond to their reach-outs. The work is getting to the point where your body doesn't treat their contact as life-saving news, which takes time and distance and not responding. It's funny. And one of my groups, one of my girls was saying, no, no, I respond to everybody. That's just not how I operate. And I said, but who taught you that. She said, well, that's just who I am. My nervous system can't handle that. And I was like, no, that's you who you're identifying yourself as. You want to know how your nervous system will handle it. You've got to try not answering. You've got to try putting distance and space in it. And most of all, you have to love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people. You're so focused on what they think about you, but what the fuck do you think about you? When you're sitting there answering their text, and then you feel like a fucking idiot. Because you're like, my God, this person texts me for an entire day. They were bored. They were on a flight and they had nothing to do. They didn't actually care about me. Because when you start coming closer and they're like, I don't get it. Why did they do it again?

Starting point is 00:28:01 They did it again because it was never about you. It was about how it made them feel. So stop giving them the accolades and start taking your fucking. power back. You don't have to answer somebody. Spoiler alert, just because you have a fucking phone in your hand all the time doesn't mean everyone should have fucking access to you. Just because I can text somebody doesn't mean that within five goddamn minutes they have to answer me. It's okay if they don't. It's also okay if that person that you broke up with and has not contacted you and someone randomly reach out to you, you don't have to fucking answer. Have some goddamn dignity and have some boundaries around your fucking technology and stop giving your power away to

Starting point is 00:28:35 everybody else. You don't get to determine someone's response time and somebody does not get to determine yours. All right, baby. Let's get to the most important question. Can they change? Real question. Yes, but with important qualifications. So one of the most asked questions in the Q&A was some version of this. And guys, duh, don't forget to follow along at the Sabrina Zohar show on Instagram because that's where I do my question box. So you guys can be part of the episodes and submit stuff. Same for In the Trenches. Which, by the way, guys, in the trenches is every the second Tuesday of every month. You guys get a bonus episode. Don't forget. It's really fun. Sometimes we have guests. Sometimes we have me.

Starting point is 00:29:07 Sometimes it's solos. It doesn't matter, right? But go and take a listen. And don't forget, there's multiple questions answered in each episode. It's not just one, but I have to title it something. So anyway. Can an avoidant becomes secure? It's a forever thing. Is this a life sentence? The research is clear that attachment patterns can shift. So about 30 to 40% of adults who are classified as insecurely attached in childhood could become what researchers call are insecure in adulthood. Hi! Good to see you guys. And this has been documented repeatedly. I also talk about in the book. including in Roisman and colleagues 2002 study, which is one of the cleanest looks at this phenomena. So the category change is real, it's measurable, and it's replicable.

Starting point is 00:29:42 But here's what the research does not say. It does not say that avoidant attachment shifts through being loved enough. It does not say that if you're the right person, if you're patient enough, if you prove that you will stay, they will eventually soften. That is a fantasy most anxious partners run on that does not match the data. The data shows that people who move from avoidant to secure typically do specific things. One, they seek therapy. They seek therapy. They make the choice.

Starting point is 00:30:05 They. They. Okay. And it's usually attachment based or somatic. They build their capacity to tolerate emotional closeness and small repeated exposures. They stay present. When their deactivation system tries to pull away, they get honest about the cost of the pattern. And they do this work themselves, not in response to someone else's pressure.

Starting point is 00:30:24 I've even seen it with Ryan. He's done so much work on himself. And there are times where he'll even say, like, I really want to leave right now. or like I don't want to have this conversation, but I know we need to. He is working on it. All I can tell him is, oh, I'm not going to be in a relationship. If somebody doesn't, that's not an ultimatum, that's a boundary. I don't date people that aren't working on themselves that don't understand that what I bring to the table I also want my partner to.

Starting point is 00:30:45 And awareness and growth and trying and all of these things, don't need perfection because I'm not perfect either. But I need a partner that's going to do it on themselves, that on their own, that they're going to go and do it. Not that you made the fucking appointment for them or you found the therapist or you convinced them. that's never going to get someone to change. It didn't work with your parents. And what almost never produces change is the one thing anxious partners keep banking on their love and their patience and their loyalty and their willingness to wait, not because those things don't matter in relationships because those things are not the mechanism of avoiding change. The mechanism is internal.

Starting point is 00:31:15 The person has to want to feel what they've been suppressing and not even just want, have the bandwidth. And most avoidans do not want that. And they design the suppression specifically to avoid feeling it. And I use want, not like, well, if he wanted to, he would. It's like, okay, yeah, right, you're going to use this to talk about the fucking nervous system. Okay. Now, here's the hard addendum. I had a question in the Q&A that I thought was really insightful.

Starting point is 00:31:37 And someone said, how do we become secure without becoming avoidant on the way? That's the question anxious people need to ask because most anxious people don't ask it because they assume secure looks like not anxious and not anxious looks like avoided. Secure is not a muted version of anxious. Secure is a nervous system that can be deeply connected and also intact when connection is lost, not less connected. intact through loss. You can feel the breakup fully. You grieve. You cry.

Starting point is 00:32:03 And your self-concept stays in place. Right? That's regulation. If you're anxious and you're starting to try to heal by becoming unbothered, by suppressing your react. Like, I don't care. Right. I'm the cool girl.

Starting point is 00:32:13 By performing the not caring, you're not becoming secure. You're becoming more avoided. And the research shows avoidance do not actually have better outcomes. They look better in the short run. They do worse in the long run, especially around inflammation, physical health, relationship, longevity, and later life bereavement. Do not aim for what hurt you. Aim for the thing neither of you fucking had.

Starting point is 00:32:30 Your ex is not better than you because they look fine. You are not worse because you feel everything. The goal is not to trade your pattern for theirs. The goal is to build something neither of you have been able to access. Can it avoid and change and come back to you? Sure, if they do the fucking work and it's not you trying to get them to change. But the real question is, what about the situation feels familiar? You have to self-abandoned to get someone back or hope they see you and you think that's love.

Starting point is 00:32:54 Baby, who tell you that? Stop calling them my avoidant and start calling them your fucking ex because they're an ex for a goddamn reason and I need you to remember that. You got to stop idealizing these people. Stop putting them on a pedestal. They were an ex for a reason. You didn't like when they shut down. You didn't like how they made you feel like you weren't a priority. You didn't like that they weren't really putting you for.

Starting point is 00:33:11 You didn't like any of that. So take up space. If you hyperfocus on why this person moved on so quickly, it has nothing to do with them. It has to do with the fact that you don't feel like you had any worth. That you feel like somebody could just move on quickly without you having mattered to them. So at the end of the day, are you actually stuck on this person or are you stuck on trying to prove that you are fucking worthy and deserving of this and you're waiting for them to tell you that instead of for you to fucking see it? So here's your tool, baby. It's something I've watched anxious people struggle with more than almost anything else and it's a single most useful practice for this specific kind of fucking breakup.

Starting point is 00:33:42 You have to stop predicting what your ex is feeling. Specifically, you need to notice every single time you catch yourself doing it. Right. Leave it in the comments. Let me know where does your brain go? Is it that did I never matter to them? did they move on quickly? I'm never going to find anybody. And look, they did, right?

Starting point is 00:33:56 Do you notice how all of these narratives have nothing to do with them and everything to do with how we see ourselves in the view? Da, da, da, right? So I want you to notice every time you catch yourself doing it, when your mind says some version of they must be feeling or she's this or he's this, they would definitely think about the avoidant X. And I want you to then interrupt it with one specific phrase. I don't know what they're feeling.

Starting point is 00:34:17 I know what I'm feeling. That's it. Out loud, written, if that helps in your head, if it's all that you got. Here's why it works. An enormous amount of the pain of an avoidant breakup is not the breakup itself. It's a story you keep building about what is happening inside their head. Are they missing me? Are they regretful?

Starting point is 00:34:31 Do they think about me? Do they feel nothing? Are they with someone else in happy? Are they with someone in secretly thinking about me? Every single one of those is a story your brain is generating to fill an unbearable information gap. And every story pulls your attention to them instead of you. The harsh fucking reality about breakups with an avoidant. Most of the pain isn't about the breakup.

Starting point is 00:34:47 It's about the story you created in what's happening in their head. Do they miss me? Do they regret leaving? Do they think about me? You're so consumed with meaning something to them. You forgot that you need to mean something to you, baby. And the actual truth? You will never know what they're feeling.

Starting point is 00:34:59 You didn't know when you were together. You don't know now. You might never. Not because they're so uniquely unknowable, but because you don't live inside the other person's fucking nervous system. And trying to is a fantasy that consumes your life. So the practice is not to figure out what they're feeling. The practice is to notice every time you try,

Starting point is 00:35:16 redirect that attention to what you are feeling. Not what you think you should be feeling. Not what you think would be fair. Will you actually feel in your body right now? Do this for a week. And something happens that you might not expect. The obsession drops. It's not because you've suddenly just healed overnight because you stop feeding it. The mental act of predicting their insides is one of the primary fuels of anxious post-breakup suffering and is entirely optional once you notice you're doing it. I need you to understand something, baby. This is not about pretending you don't care. We're not suppressing. You're not becoming avoidant. You can still love them. You could still grieve. That's allowed. The practice is specific. about the mental act of trying to see inside their mind, which is the part of this, it's not fucking helping you. And at the end of the day, did you matter? I think you matter to you. And if they are not going to be able to express that and to share that, then that doesn't mean that you need them. You don't need to villainize them for you to have worth. You don't have to villainize them. But you know what you can say? I'm not going to hold on to this any longer.

Starting point is 00:36:12 And I'm just every day I go on TikTok and it's like, my avoidant and then the dismissive avoidant did this and they did this. And it's like, man, where's the smallest violin? I'm not saying it doesn't hurt, but man, is it everything in life? Is this much of a fucking song and dance? So the person that cut you off, are you also doing this? Every single time you got an email that pissed you off, you're doing that? When someone fucking takes your parking spot, are you doing that? No.

Starting point is 00:36:34 No. So then let's stop taking up so much space for people that haven't really earned that space in your life. Again, I'm not going to take away the pain. I'm not going to discredit that you get to feel all of these things. But I need you to also remind yourself that, like you exist, other amazing people do. And this person just wasn't your person. And you're allowed to be sad. I've had it where I've had to grieve things. I've had to grieve shows I didn't get audience members that leave. And you're like, okay, that sucks. Right. I can hold two conflicting thoughts. But that doesn't mean I have to sit here and pine over that. Because then by doing that, I'm ignoring all the other opportunities that are opening up. And I want you to remember that. You're not guaranteed tomorrow. You're not guaranteed in a fucking five minutes. Right now there is a million people dying every second. So let's actually live life. Let's actually be there for ourselves and hold that space. And not. try so hard to understand what the avoiding person's going through and just accept that that's their journey and that you matter to you and that's really all that fucking matters. So next week,

Starting point is 00:37:27 part three, baby, the disorganized breakup. If you've been listening to both of these epitose thinking like, I'm a little bit of both, right? Well, I have no idea which one I am. Let's talk about it. That's disorganized and nobody specific, well, there's some people that make content, but not as much. So next week, we will. So until then, I really want you to practice that. I don't know what they're feeling peace, especially at 2 a.m. Don't forget to pre-order the book. Why am I like this available on Amazon or any of your local bookstores you can go in and be like, hey, get me this book and they'll do it. And you guys don't know how much this means. You guys preordering the book is a signal to the New York Times and to all the retailers.

Starting point is 00:38:00 Okay, people want this book. So if y'all want to see me in the shelf and bookstores, helping people and saving people, and baby, I need your help. Like I said, hold on to your screenshot. Go to Sabrinazohar.com. You will see under book, it says, submit my receipt. You can upload it and you will be accessed into a course. If you don't have a real receipt, your ass will be kicked out.

Starting point is 00:38:16 Don't worry. We are actually checking. So nice try. But I'm so fucking excited. I'm so grateful for you guys. As always, if you'd need anything, you can join a course, work one-on-one, ask a question, download the free guides, do the quiz, whatever you guys want. SabrinaZO-R.com. And if not, thank you for being here, my babies. All I need is your earballs every week for us to connect in a different way. All right, angels, I love you. And until next week.

The Sabrina Zohar Show - 206: Avoidants: Did You Mean Anything To Them? What's Really Going On After A Breakup

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