The Sabrina Zohar Show - 207: Hot and Cold in Love And Breakups: The Real Reason Why

Starting point is 00:00:00 Do you find yourself vacillating between anxious and avoidant? Like, it doesn't matter who the person is. One minute you're in, one minute you're out. I want them. I don't want them. I reach for them. I run from them. Sometimes in the same hour.

Starting point is 00:00:11 And you've probably been feeling broken because nothing in the attachment literature seems to fit exactly. What if I told you there was nothing wrong with you? You're not both. You're something else. And maybe you're dating someone like this. The research calls this disorganized attachment or fearful avoidant. Okay, that took me a second.

Starting point is 00:00:28 And same shit. Today is your episode, baby, because most attachment content splits the world into anxious or avoiding and you've been trying to wedge yourself into one of those for years. And today, we're going to stop doing that. Today I'm going to explain what the fuck is actually happening in your nervous system, why your relationships have this specific shape they have and what the real path forward looks like, baby. It's slower than the other paths, but let's go. Hello, hello, hello! Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host.

Starting point is 00:00:54 Welcome back to week three of our breakup series, Angels. I'm so stoked to have you back and I hope that you just. listened to the first two. And if you didn't, great, go back, come back, and then we'll keep going. I'm stoked because today I hear this all the time of like, oh, but I'm both. And when I say both, it doesn't mean like, oh, with one person that's super available, I'm wildly avoidant. And then with someone that's not available, I'm anxious. It's like, okay, well, that just tells me everything I need to know right there. This is the amalgamation of both of these things at the same time, with the same relationship, the push pull that I want you, I don't, I want you, I don't. Come here,

Starting point is 00:01:25 get away. And it can be fucking maddening. And so I'm going to share some stories today. We're going to get into, of course, tool of the week at the end of the episode. Stick around so you can start to implement this today. And guys, as always, thank you. Thank you for being here. Don't forget to rate and review the show. Please leave a comment, even if it's a heart. Let me know what you like, what you don't.

Starting point is 00:01:42 Any questions you guys have. I am fucking here for you. And this is how we're building a community. I'm trying to be more authentic. I'm trying to show up differently. I'm trying to share other parts of me. And you might not like it and that's okay. But that's part of building a community is being able to be ourselves here no matter what.

Starting point is 00:01:56 Hey, guys, don't forget to pre-order my book. Why am I like this available now? And if you pre-order it, you get a free course, everything at Sabrina Zoha.com. Save your receipt. Upload it. Yes, we are checking receipts. So nice try. Get it for your friends.

Starting point is 00:02:09 Get it for everybody that you fucking know. Because that's the only way I'll get in the New York Times list. I'll get into Target. I'll get into all the retailers because they need to have a signal that you guys want this book and that the world wants this book. And so I need your fucking help. So everything will be in the show notes. You want to ask a question.

Starting point is 00:02:22 Work one on one. You can join one of the courses. We have the Healthy Dating Foundation course, the Going Slow course. Whatever you guys need, everything will be. at Sabrinazohar.com. All right, babies, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? I love this series. And the reason I love this series so much is because I think it's something different, right? We're not coming at this of like, here's what you should do to get this person back. It's actually understanding different people's lived experience. And I know that

Starting point is 00:02:46 if you're listening to this going, well, this isn't my experience. I've never dated anyone like this. It doesn't mean you won't. And I'll never forget the first time I met somebody emotionally unavailable. I couldn't understand the behavior. And then like a post came up and was like, this is what emotionally unavailable is. I remember calling my mom going, oh my God, that's what he is, not understanding like, oh, fuck. And then telling my girlfriend about the situation and she looked at me and she was like, dude, that's disorganized. That's the fearful avoid at two a T. And I was like, no shit. So I'm to share that story with you later on. And like I said, the tool of the week is going to be really helpful. But I'm just stoked. I really like these series. And I get it. Like not every episode's

Starting point is 00:03:20 going to be for every person. I get it again. I curse a lot. I talk really fast. Like, it's okay if this show isn't for you. But we just asked to speak with kindness and to show love and respect for everybody because I'm trying to help. I'm not trying to hear her to fucking start shit or do anything. And that's like, that doesn't work for you. That's okay too. But I just, the noise. The noise is not necessary. We all have enough to fucking deal with. We don't need to add. So let me start with what disorganized actually is because there's confusion about this in popular content. So the anxious attachment system runs on a strategy. The strategy is get closer. The avoid an attachment system also runs on a strategy. That strategy is get distance.

Starting point is 00:03:54 both are organized and both are predictable. When you're dating someone and you start to notice the pattern, you start to understand the patterns, which is why you should order this book. It's all about patterns. But once you start to really understand that, and you're like, oh, okay, this is what they always do. The nervous system is a goal and a method and the goal is safety and the method is to move toward or away from another person. Disorganize attachment is different. It's called disorganized because there is no consistent strategy. The nervous system is trying to do both things at once.

Starting point is 00:04:20 Get closer, get distance. And reach for the person and protect against. them. You want intimacy, you fear intimacy. What makes it unique, that is not, this isn't a metaphor, it's not a description. It's actually measurable. And it's been studied in adults, and specifically since 2015, when Rolls and Khan published their research developing a dimensional measure for disorganized attachment in adulthood. So what they found was really, really fascinating. What they found is that a disorganized attachment in adult is characterized by fear of the attachment figure themselves, not just fear of rejection or fear of engulfment, but fear of the very person you're

Starting point is 00:04:51 attached to. So that's why we say, like, anxious attachment, low sense of self, high sense of others. Avoidant, low sense of others, high sense of self. And then the disorganizes low sense of self and low sense of others. And so they're often the person that they go to for love, care, affection is also the person they fear. And the fear creates something that is called confusion about relationships. A genuine structural uncertainty about what closeness is supposed to do, what it's supposed to feel like, and what you're supposed to do when you have it. The felt experience, and I think every disorganized person listening to this will recognize us immediately. You reach for someone and you flinch at the same time.

Starting point is 00:05:26 You want them to want you and you panic when they do. You crave reassurance and then you reject it the second arrives. You finally get the secure partner. You said you want it and you start finding reasons to leave. You meet the unavailable one and you can't stop yourself. So here's what makes this so painful from the inside is that you cannot predict it. The anxious person at least knows what their pattern is, right? They reach, they protest, they get clingy, they know.

Starting point is 00:05:46 The avoidant person kind of knows too. They pull away, they deactivate, they suppress. They know. It's a bit more consistent in that regard. The disorganized person doesn't know. That's also why when you date somebody disorganized, it could literally feel like you're going insane. Someone avoid in. It's like, oh, here we go. Like, they're going inwards. They're removing themselves. Like, again, there's the past. Same with the anxious. Like, up, here we go again. They're freaking out. They're getting anxious. They're starting to go outward. But with the disorganized person, one minute you're close and then the next they're pulling away. And you're like, wait, what? I'm confused. And this isn't just like, oh, they got triggered. They shut down. This is this intensity and hot and cold and in. And you sometimes have to want.

Starting point is 00:06:19 you're like, man, am I seeing this right? Like, do I, er, do I need to, like, clear my glasses? Today's trigger could activate the anxious system. Tomorrow's same trigger could activate the avoidance system. The person you felt safe with last week feel suffocating this week. You can't tell if what you're feeling is real or the system flipping. You can't tell if you should trust your reach or trust your retreat. You can't tell if the urgency to leave is wisdom or defense.

Starting point is 00:06:41 You can't tell. And I know it might feel like you're not being dramatic. You're not being indecisive. That is not that you're being too much. That is a nervous system with two contradictory safety responses. Both of them active, both of them informed by old experiences, but neither of them winning. And the not knowing, honestly, that's the worst fucking part. It's worse than the leaving.

Starting point is 00:06:59 It's worse than the staying. It's the constant uncertainty about which version of you is going to show up to your own fucking life today. And if you're hearing this and you're saying, oh my God, this is me, I want you to take a deep breath. There's a reason. There's a name. There is research. No, you're not fucking making this up. There is nothing wrong with you either, baby.

Starting point is 00:07:17 This is just called being a human. And the reason I also like to talk about this is the amount of fucking misinformation about attachment styles. If I hear one more person say, my avoidant, my this, my that, first of all, they're not your fucking anything. This is a human being with a lived experience. Second of all, stop using attachment styles to excuse someone's bullshit behavior or excuse yourself from making a choice for yourself.

Starting point is 00:07:37 By saying, well, I'm just anxious and they're avoiding. What the fuck does I have anything to do with the fact that they're not treating you in the way that you deserve and now you get a choice? And the more we deflect and make it about them and their attachment style, the further away we are from understanding what is coming up within ourselves. So instead of identifying people as an attachment style as if there are a commodity, maybe we can start to understand behavior, understand patterns, and then get curious if this fucking works for you or not. And if you're recognizing yourself and you want to work through this, the healthy dating

Starting point is 00:08:03 foundation is the course. It's built to give you the framework before you get into the relationship, not while you're trying to repair one that's already three years into the fucking cycle. And for my disorganized listers, the prep work matters because the cycle is harder to interrupt once you're in it. So again, everything's at SabrinaZohr.com. If you're between relationships right now, this is the season angel. This episode is sponsored by ORAFrames. Babes, this father's day, why don't we show off photos of whether that be your father or somebody that in your life was a father figure? Personally, for me, I don't really talk to my dad, but you know who I love more than anything? I love Ryan's stepdad. We're all really close, and so we got an ORA Frame not only for

Starting point is 00:08:40 him as a gift, but I also got one for Ryan because he's a dog dad. And I don't think it has a has to fit into one category or box. Whether that be a dog dad, a human dad, it doesn't really matter, a dad that you love that you want to show off in your home, ORAFrames has your back. You have free unlimited storage. You can add as many photos and videos as you want. All you have to do is download the free ORA app or text photos straight to your frame. I genuinely don't think it can be any easier. And they look so good in the house. It's such a beautiful addition so that you can have a multitude of photos and videos showing up. And it was named number one by wirecutter. And you can save now by visiting oraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners get $35 off their best-selling Carver

Starting point is 00:09:20 mat frame with code Sabrina. That's a uraframes.com promo code Sabrina. Support the Sabrina Zohar show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Let's talk about the cycle that won't break, right? Let's talk about the relationship pattern that's most associated with disorganized attachment, the on again off again, the cycle. And boy, have I been there. So that was the guy that I had mentioned in the beginning. This guy, when I met him, I remember calling my mom going, okay, if I had to go through everything I went through for this, worth every second of it. It was this kismet, I've talked about him before, the guy that, well, he lived in Utah, and I don't think he lives there anymore. And when we met, it was like, well, let me back up. I met him at a

Starting point is 00:10:00 workout class. Like, I saw him, and I remember being in class, and it was one of those things were like, I wasn't going to go. And I was going to, I don't know. Maybe my friend was like, yeah, fuck it. Let's just go. Come on, dude. And the minute I saw him, only straight guy in an all women class, so I was like, oh, and I saw him, and like, I mean, this was a tall drink of water. We're talking like six three football player tattoo, like just a beautiful specimen of a human being. And a really lovely human. Like, I won't take that away from, yes, his issues. We're a very good, like, nice guy. And the minute I, I, well, I approached him for anybody that's sitting here saying, well, I'm not going to go up and talk. I went up to him. And I just looked

Starting point is 00:10:35 him in and I said, the only straight man and I go off women's class, huh? And he just turned around, And he goes, oh, so you saw me fucking struggling. And that was it. We start talking. And next thing I know, even my girlfriend, she like kind of backed off and was like, okay. Because she thought he was hot, but she was like very, she saw. She was like, there was very clearly you guys had something. And he got my number and he said, I'd love to see you.

Starting point is 00:10:54 And I remember going home and being like, okay, let's see if this even happens. And sure enough, he messaged me, he phaimed me. And he was like, I'm going to go watch my friend surf. Like, can I see you? But he was like almost an hour away because he had come to like visit where I was. And he didn't live there. And I said, sure, let's do something. tonight. And he's like, could you come? Like, let's meet up in the middle. We met. And I just remember,

Starting point is 00:11:12 like, sweating. I was having so much fun. Like, I couldn't believe that this person was real. We, like, said the same thing at the same time. And we were like, oh, my God, no way. And we laughed. It was like seven hours of laughing and just joking and making out and just walking around. Just like true, just the moments that you're like, man, this feels really good. And then we ended up spending the entire weekend together. Like, we drove back, took him, pick up all his stuff at his friend's house. He ended up coming back to my house staying with me. We went to like workout classes together. And I remember two days later, going to my friend's class that the studio was at and her smiling going, fuck yeah, when we walked in together because she was like, fuck yeah, dude. And I remember

Starting point is 00:11:50 we were like, we're not going to sleep together. I'm going to play this one right. And I remember us laying in bed and him saying, I really want to do this right. Like I don't want to be on the dating apps anymore. I fucking like you, man. And like, I just haven't felt this in a long time. And I was like, oh my God. He leaves. And I remember being at dinner. Like he goes away. He leaves. And he's like, I have to see you again. And I was like, okay. And I remember being at dinner with my girlfriend and being like, I hadn't heard from him. He hasn't texted me. And she was like, I'll put money on it. If I know this type, he's going to text you in about an hour. When he finally gets home, has the minute to sit down. And sure, she was right. And I looked and I'm like, how did you know? And she's

Starting point is 00:12:19 like, I know the type. And that was the whirlwind of the worst month that I had experienced for my anxiety and everything that I experienced. Because it was one minute he was all over me. And then the next he was away. And when, and huh, and huh. And like one minute he would text me and we'd be super chatty. And then I wouldn't hear from him for three days. And I remember just being like, I feel like I'm going crazy. And that's when I realized that, oh, my God, he's emotionally unavailable. Then I go to visit him. I had to go anyways for work. And it got so bad. It was so hot and cold that my friend that I went to go see was like, I'm getting a hotel, dude. You need to get the fuck out of this. And I was like, no, no, come on. I made the commitment. I'm here. It was so intense. Like we, I'll give you

Starting point is 00:12:54 an example. It was his friend's birthday party. And he says, oh, so my friend's having a birthday party tomorrow and I was like, cool. I'm assuming we're going. I'm staying at the motherfucker's house. I came to see him. I had one afternoon of work and he knew I was staying the weekend to be with him. And I said, you know, cool. Am I like, what are we doing? And he was like, oh, oh, I'm going to go. And I was like, wait, what? And he was like, yeah, it's a sleepover. Like, we're all staying at this Airbnb. And I was like, what am I supposed to do? He's like, why you just stay here with the dog? I was like, wait, is that why I'm here to babysit your friend's dog? And I was like, and you bring this dog on the one weekend I'm coming so that we have

Starting point is 00:13:28 to be back home every two hours. And all of a sudden he snaps. He's like, what are you trying to get for me? What, you want a relationship for me? What are you trying to pin me down for? And I just stopped him and I said, what the fuck are you talking about? I was like, dude, I'm here to visit you. What are you done? No one's trying to pin you down. I was like, why the fuck would not go with you? And then all of a sudden he was like just breaks down. He's like, I just love how you challenge me. And that's what I mean by where you're like, I just need to take a second. What the fuck is going on? That was the entire weekend. And then right before I leave, he tells me, I feel like I finally met an equal and it feels so connected to you. After I like rip him

Starting point is 00:14:00 a new one, I'm being like, dude, I can't handle this. One minute you're all over me making out. And then the next minute you don't want to touch me. And I was like, I don't know what's going on. And so the next day I leave, we write each other these really, we played we're not really strangers. We read each other a letter. I'm on the plane. I'm crying. I'm so excited. I don't know what's going on. I send him this beautiful text. He hearts it. I remember just being like, are you fucking kidding. And the next day FaceTime me. I didn't even fucking answer. I was like busy with my friend and I was like, I'll get back to him. He calls me the next day. And I said, I don't understand what's going on. You tell me you met an equal. You met your equal. And he goes, no, no, no.

Starting point is 00:14:27 I said I met an equal. I didn't say I met my equal. And I just finally said, I'm fucking done. Please leave me alone. I was like, I don't ever want to do this again. And like, I cried. I tried to go back to him. Like, I'm not going to try to sit here as if I'm like this fucking angel. Yeah, I text him like a week later being like, are you sure you don't want to try? And he was like, no, I think you made the right choice. Like, I do think we're better off his friends. He is now dating a girl like almost 20 years younger than him. And I was like, ah, that makes sense. Enjoy.

Starting point is 00:14:51 Good luck, Godspeed. And now in hindsight, understanding the dynamic, I was like, oh, okay. It's not like, oh, I did nothing. It's not me. But I had to understand, like, dude, what could you have possibly done this person? Like, did I cry? Did I feel? Of course.

Starting point is 00:15:04 But I knew in my gut, this was not the right person for me. As much as I really liked his personality and we could laugh for fucking hours and get lost. But he wasn't emotionally available. He wasn't open to me. He was wildly disorganized. He had a lot of trauma growing up. His dad was not necessarily the best person. And, well, at least the way he talked to him.

Starting point is 00:15:21 And I had to understand it. And the reason I share this story is one, I mean, who doesn't love a good story, right? Hot mess express. But, and that's not in the book. I have different stories. The book has stories you guys have never fucking heard before, ever on the podcast, maybe one. But like, outside of that, you've never heard him. So I'm so excited.

Starting point is 00:15:35 So pre-order it. I love you. And by the way, if you think I'm annoying now about the book, just wait until we get closer to October. And if your complaint to me is that I talk too much about the book, my answer is fuck off. This is my baby. This is my child.

Starting point is 00:15:45 I literally pour my heart in. sold to every single thing. I spend hours getting ready for episodes, getting ready to prep for you guys for shit that I don't make, I don't make money off of this directly from you guys. So the one thing that I fucking ask for is to please pre-order the book, thank you for listening to my TED Talk. Thank you for hearing me on my soapbox. Sometimes I just have to get it out because ADHD brain focuses on things and it's hard to get off the loop. So me being vulnerable with you guys that I have my own chip. This episode is sponsored by Lola Blankets. Lola Blankets has to be the best thing I have ever discovered in my entire life. When I say Kobe will not come on the bed on

Starting point is 00:16:16 the couch on anything. If there is not a Lola blanket present, all we have to say is Kobe Lola, and he will finally get up. He is obsessed with his Lola dogbed. And so because we love Lola so much, we realize, oh my God, this is the perfect gift. Lola is the world's number one blanket crafted with ultra soft, luxury faux fur, and a signature four-way stretch that people instantly obsess over the second they touch it. I cannot tell you, we have home parties all the time. We always have our Lola out. I have had probably 10 friends instantly grab their phone and order a Lola immediately when they touch it because it is the most comfortable thing. They have a large, which is perfect for cozying up, or the extra large, which is massive,

Starting point is 00:16:52 and they have weighted blankets. They've got everything you possibly could need. And for a limited time only, our listeners can get 40% off select Lola Blanket products with code Sabrina at checkout. Just head to LolaBlankets.com and use code Sabrina. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show, the Sabrina Zohar Show, and tell them we sent you. Wrap yourself in luxury with Lola Blankets. baby, trust me, you will not regret it.

Starting point is 00:17:16 This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys, I don't want you just to survive this summer. I want you to thrive. And for me, I know a lot of people struggle during summer. I could be tough to juggle everything. I sometimes get really in my head of like, I don't want to waste days of sunshine. I want to be productive until I realized, wait a minute,

Starting point is 00:17:33 I also need to take care of myself. And thanks to my therapist who recommended I get a hobby, now I'm doing more things, whether that be outdoors, baking, doing things that I actually have time and space for that I can take care of me. And that's why I love BetterHelp. They have quality therapists. So BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed

Starting point is 00:17:51 in the U.S. And they have over 30,000 therapists. So it's the world's largest online platform having served over 6 million people globally. I love BetterHelp. It is so easy to use. And you don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash Sabrina.

Starting point is 00:18:10 That's BetterHELP.com. But I digress. The research, because most people don't know how common this is, is Dr. Renee Daly at the University of Texas, has been studying cyclical relationships for over 15 years. And this is exactly why. This exact study is why I did not get on the merry-go-round. Her 2009 study found that nearly two-thirds of young adults have experienced on-again-off-again relationships at some point. Two-fucking thirds. That is not a small subgroup. That's technically a majority. I personally was not in that. What I noticed, too, was like, I really not. I didn't deal with the organize as often. I know some of you guys would be like, oh, we've been off and off for five years. We've been on and off for this. I didn't have that. I had men that just didn't choose me. I had people that were just not interested, and that's what it was. But I understand. And I think what I really found interesting in the study across all of her studies was cyclical partners consistently reported low relationship quality than non-cyclical partners. Less love, less satisfaction, less of the things relationships are supposed to give you. There was more conflict. There was

Starting point is 00:19:08 more uncertainty. There was more distress. And you have to wonder, what is the point? If you're dating somebody that is on and off hot and cold, I need you to stop fucking romanticizing their inconsistency and I need to start calling it what it is, it doesn't fucking work for you. I know we want to make it something it's not, but someone that's not showing up, someone that one minute is in, one minute is out, one minute is hot and one minute is cold isn't fucking mysterious that is fucking with your nervous system. And when you finally admit that, you can actually start to make choices for yourself. Stop trying to get them to change for them to fucking pick you and maybe for once you can choose yourself. Dating a partner who's not

Starting point is 00:19:36 available is a fucking turnoff. If you believe that it's actually a turn on, then we need to look at where you learned that that's love. Hoping they come back, change sounds like a fantasy about them changing for you more than it is about you accepting who they are. You need them to be a different fucking person for this to work. So maybe when you finally acknowledge that, you can let this person go, deal with the no contact and stop waiting and hoping on hope and start looking at reality. The more you focus on why, the less you're focusing on what. And the less you're focusing on what is when you're so focused on what if. Get rid of the fucking narrative and start to come back to reality. This person is not for you. It doesn't matter how much you fucking fancy.

Starting point is 00:20:10 size. So let's get back into a study. I'm spicy today. I'm mama after a workout. I swear. I tell you. You never know. Okay, a 2026 study by Daily Venom and Monk published in the journal of social and personal relationships found that relationship cycling is consistently associated with relational stress and compromise well-being. This was across all samples, multiple years of data. So why is this keep happening? Why do you keep going back to someone when the data is very clear that this is not making you happy? And I want to talk about a cycle. I have been in as well. Do you want to know why you keep going for the on and off person? Because in a disorganized dynamic, the breakup is rarely a real ending. You can imagine what that does to your dopamine system. The breakup is one system winning over the other system temporarily. Conflict or intimacy or a specific trigger is the avoidance. The avoidance system wants out. So they leave or you accept being left. The leaving feels right for a few days, sometimes weak. Then the distance kicks in. Distance is the trigger for the anxious system. The anxious system can't tolerate the absence. It hyperactivates. It starts generating reasons the relationship was actually fine. It starts missing them. It reaches. The reach gets a response. The reconciliation happens. It feels enormous and sexy as fuck.

Starting point is 00:21:12 The relief, the love, the certainty that this time it will be different. They change. They pick me. They see me. Whatever the fuck it is. Then closeness rebuilds, slowly or quickly. And the moment closeness reaches a threshold that triggered the avoidance system in the first place. The avoidant system comes back online and the cycle starts on and on again and again as long as you fucking allow it. This can run for years. Now you get to decide how long you're going to allow this fucking Mary go around until you decide to get off of it. Well, I've watched this run for fucking 15 years. Each cycle involves real distress on sides, the pattern is the pathology, not any single breakup inside of it. A breakup in a disorganized cycle is not the same as a breakup in an organized attachment.

Starting point is 00:21:46 When two anxious people break up, when an anxious and avoidant person break up, when an avoidant leaves, the ending tends to stick or not stick based on whether either person reaches out. In a disorganized cycle, the ending rarely sticks on its own. The system flips, and the flip generates the reach, and the reach generates the renewal. The way out of the cycle is almost never inside the fucking cycle, and that's because that's not how humans work. The way out is doing something different that neither of your nervous systems is going to know what to do with. So what that means practically in layman's terms, if you've been in this

Starting point is 00:22:12 kind of cycle and you're listening to this as an off period thinking maybe they'll text me, maybe just check in, maybe just see. I want you to hear me very fucking clearly, baby. That impulse is not new information and this is not a new place you've never been in. This is not the relationship calling you back. That is your anxious system flipping on now the distance has been long enough to activate. The relationship hasn't changed. Your system has temporary to change which side is louder. This episode is sponsored by Rhythm Health. Rhythm has to be one of the coolest things I think I have ever discovered in my adult life. I have been so focused recently on, like, my hormones, making sure my anxiety is in check

Starting point is 00:22:44 and trying to understand what's the mental health and then what is the physical health. And the thing is, if you're not tracking your blood work while you're doing all of that, you're basically flying blind, right? You're taking supplements. You're taking things. You're doing all this. But you don't actually know how that's impacting your body. And that's why I'm so excited to partner with rhythm.

Starting point is 00:23:01 Rhythm is the world's easiest blood test to help you learn what's happening inside your body. It takes two minutes at home. No needles. It's just a sleek and painless collection device. You peel and stick on your arm, draw a small sample, mail it to their lab, and get results in about three days. It is probably one of the coolest things I've ever seen. And Rhythm is only $79 per month, which is a fraction of traditional lab testing, and it slips right to your door. You can cancel any time. Right now, Rhythm is offering our listeners 15% off your first month and free shipping at RhythmHealth.com slash Sabrina. That's Rhythm with 1H, baby. R-Y-T-H-H-M- Rhythmhealth.com slash Sabrina for 15% off your first month in free shipping. Stop guessing, start testing. Rhythmhealth.com slash Sabrina. Oh, boy, all right, I have another story. And the only reason I share this is I've mentioned him before, but we have a lot of new folks. So I'm going to share some stories again because my ho phase was quite a while in New York.

Starting point is 00:23:55 There was this guy and I was so crazy about him and he treated it be so poorly. He would give me a lot of attention but not intention. Like, he would take me on these really beautiful dates, but then like not show up. and then he would have no problem if it ended. And I would be the moron. Then I would be the one that was at his door begging him to come back. And then he would fuck me and we'd spend the night

Starting point is 00:24:12 and then the next day I'd leave and be like, I'm not going to hear from this guy again. I kept thinking I could change it. I can change it. And you know what I had to do? I had to fucking remove myself. You know who never contact me again? Him.

Starting point is 00:24:22 That's also why. I am so fucking tired of they always come back. No, they don't. They don't always come back. Some people do. And guess what? Some people don't. The more you hold on to,

Starting point is 00:24:31 they're going to come back for me and they're going to save me. baby, that's childhood because you're a fucking adult. Ain't nobody coming back to get you or to save you. You need to go back and fucking save yourself. And if you so badly want them to come back for you and will they come back, I need you to stop asking, will they come back? And I need you start getting curious about why the fuck you want someone back that left to begin with.

Starting point is 00:24:49 I want you to pause and I don't want you to act on the flip. I want you to notice that it's a flip and I want you to let it pass. The avoidance system is going to come back online in a few days or a few weeks. And if you're reconnected during the anxious phase, you'll be back in the cycle by the time it does. I know. I know. you're allowed to be sad. So let's talk about where this comes from. I'm going to do this carefully because the origins of disorganized attachment are usually heavier than the other styles,

Starting point is 00:25:09 and I want to name them accurately without being either reductive or sensationalizing them. So disorganized attachment most often forms when a caregiver was both a source of comfort and a source of fear or unpredictability or a threat. We see that with abuse, right? If the parent was abusive to you, that's your source of love, but also pain. You're scared. And this is documented in the development attachment literature going back decades. Originally, by Mary Maine and Judith Solomon in 1986. The child needs the caregiver for survival. The same survival is also sometimes the force source of harm. The nervous system can't resolve this contradiction, so it doesn't. It builds two systems instead of one. Reach when reaching seems safe. Withdraw

Starting point is 00:25:45 when withdrawing seems safe, both all the time in the background. That's why it's not, I'm in anxious with one person and I'm avoiding with the other. It's not a flip per person. It's within the relationship consistently and activates depending on how they show up as well. That template carries into adult relationships, not because you chose it, because it's what the nervous system installed before you had a choice to fucking choose does. In 2015, rolls paper I mentioned earlier, and the follow-up he did examine the link between early trauma and adult disorganization and found that disorganized attachment in adulthood mediates the relationship between childhood, traumatic experiences, and externalizing behaviors in adult romantic relationships. Meaning, the earlier experience travels through the attachment system into the adult relationship behaviors. They're not random. They have a development origin like so many other fucking things. But the important thing that I want you to hear is not every disorganized person has capital T trauma. And I get it. It can feel alienating. Sometimes the caregiver was loving but had their own unresolved nervous system and you absorbed it. Sometimes the household had chronic unpredictability like addiction, big on homes of alcoholism, addiction, drugs, whatever sex, porn doesn't matter. Untreated mental illness or loss or sudden moves or instability. Sometimes something specific happened to the family that they never named. Sometimes the origins are a combination so subtle from the outside, it looks like a normal childhood.

Starting point is 00:27:01 And only when you start tracing the patterns do you realize what your nervous system actually absorbed. And I want to say something else because I see disorganized people get caught up all the time. This is not a cue to call your parents instead of fight. It's not a reason to write off your childhood. The people who raised you were, for the most part, doing the best they could with their own nervous system. And most of them had their own unprocessed disorganization that comes from their parents. Unprocessed disorganization that came from their grandparents. It's a generational trauma.

Starting point is 00:27:25 It's not blame. your work is not to litigate theirs. Your work is to interrupt the inheritance, which you can only do once you fucking see it. Right? Holding too conflicting thoughts, you're allowed to be sad or angry about your childhood or aspects of it, but still love and understand your parents because intent matters. And if anything in this segment is bringing something up for you, I want you to just pause for a minute and breathe. Maybe it means reaching out to a therapist who is trained in specific attachment-based or trauma-informed work, right? This episode to me is the invitation. The actual healing requires more than a podcast, and that's not a limitation. It's the nature of how

Starting point is 00:27:58 the nervous system works, which is why I will scream this from the rooftops. Please go to therapy. You want to work with me? Cool. You want to work with a therapist? Great. You want to work with a coach? I don't give a fuck. You want to join a course. That's why I do it. We have these resources so that you have a place to go. But you choose your own adventure. But I'm telling you right now, just listening to a podcast or watching fucking 10 second reels on Instagram is not going to make changes. Your nervous system is now using that as regulation. You've got to start to implement, baby. And so the question every disorganized person is secretly asking is can this change. Yes, I do. I believe everyone can grow and evolve, but we have to be honest about it. Earned Secure, the research documented

Starting point is 00:28:32 phenomenon moving from insecure to secure, exists for disorganized people. So Philosa, Sharp, Gory, and Mussetti is a lot of fucking people, but they published a comprehensive scoping review on Earned Secure Attachment in 2024 that synthesized 24 studies on the topic. The phenomena is real. The mechanisms are documented. It's not magic. But here's what the research is clear on. Disorganized attachment does not shift through insight alone. This is the hard truth, but also like the free one, that's why I consistently say intellectualizing ain't doing shit. You got to fucking feel. You can read every book and understand every concept, listen to every fucking podcast and still find yourself in the cycle because disorganized attachment lives in the body, not in the mind. Honestly, all of the attachments

Starting point is 00:29:07 do. Cognitive understanding alone rarely moves disorganized attachment. What moves it, based on the research, is a combination of three things. First, somatic work, right? That's body-based therapies, a teacher nervous system, new patterns of activation and regulation directly, not through thinking. Somatic experiencing, polyvagal-informed therapy. Sometimes EMDR, I think it's very person-to-person. For me, EMDR did fuck all. For a few people, I know, some people, it's life-changing, right? Could be IFS, internal family systems, right? Second, often trauma-focused work, because the disorganization usually is trauma underneath it. And the third, the part most people miss, repeated experiences of safety in a relationship that the nervous system is time to actually

Starting point is 00:29:46 metabolize. That's why friendships, it doesn't have to be romantic. It could be friendships. It could be family. It could be colleagues. It could be someone you feel safe with. So there's a study done in 2011. I can't even fucking pronounce their name, so we're not going to, specifically on the pathways to earn security. And one of the strongest findings was the role of alternative attachment figures. That could be therapists, partners who stayed secure long enough for the system to learn it, could be mentors, friendships that didn't abandon. The body learns through relational experience, not just through reading. And the timeline is typically two to five years of consistent work for meaningful change. That's longer than the other organized attachment styles. I know that's not

Starting point is 00:30:19 what you want to hear. I'm going to tell you that truth anyways. The shortcut, the shit that tells you that you could do it in 90 days, that's not telling you the fucking truth. The work is slower. The work is worth it. The work happens. But when disorganized attachment moves towards secure, every single relationship in your life change is not just romantic. That's what I'm saying everything, friendships, family work. Also what I talk about in the book. That's why the book is not just about dating. It's about life. It's about love. It's about relationships. The way you talk to yourself. The what you receive care, the default expectation of what other people are going to do when you let them go and let them get close. All of it updates.

Starting point is 00:30:51 And the people who do this work describe it as becoming a different person, except like not really, right? You became the person who was underneath their survival response the whole time. So yeah, it can change with the right support over real time, with body work, not just mind work. And the change is bigger than what changes for other attachment systems because the system is farther to come. I'm rooting for you, baby. I am. And that's also why we have the free guide in the link in bio. Sabrina Zohra.com, where you can get regulating techniques. That way, you can start to understand

Starting point is 00:31:19 what's coming up and what's in my body and how do I regulate. How I come back to the present moment, I got you. So let's talk about tool of the week. It's a somatic practice because disorganized work has to start in the body and it's small, it's quiet, it's not glamorous, but it works. Three times a day. Same times. Maybe it's morning, midday evening, set an alarm if you fucking have to. When the alarm goes off, you're going to pause for 30 seconds and notice your body. Just notice. You're asking yourself this one question. What's data in right now? So maybe there's activated. Your heart is racing, tight chest, mind running, hypervigilance, scanning, restlessness, right?

Starting point is 00:31:49 The anxious system is online. Maybe you feel shut down. Maybe you're foggy. You're numb. You're heavy. You're feeling far away. You're disconnected. Hurt to feel anything.

Starting point is 00:31:58 The avoidant system is online. Maybe you're regulated. You're settled. You're present. You're here. You're aware of your surroundings. You're breathing without effort. Neither system is dominating.

Starting point is 00:32:06 I want you to name the state. Out loud in your head doesn't matter. I'm activated. I'm shut down. I'm regulated. I don't want you to try to change it. Do not judge it. Name it. Name it to tame it. That's the practice. Three states, three check-ins, one week. Here's why it works. Disorganized nervous systems swing between activation and shutdown with almost no self-awareness in real time. You don't know which state you're in so you can't tell why you're acting the way you're acting. The shift happens below the level of consciousness, and they drive the behavior that have been confusing you for fucking years. Building awareness for the state is the precondition for being able to do anything about it because you cannot change anything you can't track. After a week of doing this, you'll start to see patterns. The state you're in,

Starting point is 00:32:44 in when you reach for your phone to text someone. The state you're in when you snap at someone. The state you're in when you withdraw from someone you really love. The state you're in when you push something that might be good away. That map is the beginning of everything. The actual work of disorganized healing builds on top of state awareness with somatic practices to move from activation or shutdown back to regulated. But none of that is possible without first being able to track which state you're in. And that's why this tool comes first. Don't skip it for something fancier. This is the foundation. Babes. All right. We did it. That's disorganized. And then here's the thing too.

Starting point is 00:33:15 I want you to just remember, if you're going through a breakup right now with someone that was really hot and cold, inconsistent, disorganized, I want you to stop and just fucking remember. It's not because you were too much. Their systems were activated. You could have been the perfect fucking person, but walking on eggshells is never going to get you the relationship you deserve. If this person can't sit in the mess with you, can't be uncomfortable and can't actually be there for you, I don't care what their fucking attachment style is. I care that this doesn't work for you and you got to move the fuck on, baby. So next week, we end part four with the secure breakup. I'm going to show you what endings look like when they're done right, right?

Starting point is 00:33:47 Not the fairy tale. There's a real map. So you know what to aim for and you know what to recognize when you see it in someone, including your fucking self. I want you to try the state. Check in. Be patient with yourself. If you need, find a therapist to coach. I don't give a fuck.

Starting point is 00:33:58 Whatever you need. Please go do it. Pre-order. Why am I like this? You can get your free course. Remember it's Sabrina.com. Upload your receipt and you will get access. The course launches October 13th when the book comes out, but you're going to get a workbook that you can use before.

Starting point is 00:34:10 And yes, we are checking receipts. Don't try. I love you. need anything. You want to work one-on-one, ask a question, join a course. Everything's at SabrinaZO-R.com. And two, if you want to subscribe because you want to add free, feel free. If not, please support our sponsors. They help keep the show free. And without them, I would actually not be able to do the show. And without you, I wouldn't be able to do the show. So thank you for being here. I fucking love you. I'll see you next week, baby.

The Sabrina Zohar Show - 207: Hot and Cold in Love And Breakups: The Real Reason Why

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