The Sabrina Zohar Show - 21: All things dating apps, how to navigate them and dos/donts with Lisa Holden

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by Lisa Holden to talk about all things dating apps! How to set one up successfully, how to handle dating app burnout, how to date more healthy on the apps and the dos/donts of navigating them. Want to work with Lisa? Click HERE Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohart and I am going to be your host today. Guys, I am so excited. I have a very special guest here today. I have Lisa Holden. She is an writer. She talks about dating.

You can find her in pop sugar and so many other outlets. She is also a dating coach. And we are going to talk today about all things dating apps, the dos, the don'ts, how to navigate it, how to handle your mental health with it, how to have success with it. everything in between. I've got your questions that we're going to answer, and I'm just so excited to get into this episode, so let's not waste any more time. Lisa, I'm so excited to have you. I'm so excited to be here, Sabrina. Yeah, guys, we've been planning this for a while, and now that technology is on our side. I'm super stoked, guys, to introduce you guys to Lisa. And Lisa,

why don't you just tell the audience and the viewers everything about it? Sure, my name is Lisa Holden. It's Lisa A. Holden on Instagram and TikTok, and I'm a dating writer. So what that's means is I started writing about my dating life probably five or six years ago. I was living in San Francisco at the time and I was going on a lot of dates. I was hounding the dating apps. I was doing it for sports. I'll admit that at the time. And I started writing about my experiences. I've always been a writer. And when I started sending this content out, it was things like I tried this dating experiment or, you know, I learned this about how to gracefully exit a bad date. I started sending them around and they started getting picked up on pop sugar and that grew and grew and grew. And now it's been a couple years.

And I'm a freelance dating writer for pop sugar and other outlets like glamour and Marie Claire and others. And I've sort of developed an additional freelance business, which is both dating coaching. So I take on private clients and talk them through the highs and lows of dating. And I also do dating writing, romantic writing. And so essentially that's helping someone engage on their dating apps, but it's also things like wedding speeches. So I've written best man speeches, made of honor speeches, speeches. I can help you with your vows, things like that. Sweet. Well, and don't worry, we're going to link all this in the show notes. You guys will have all the access to Lisa to where you can find her. I'm curious. This is a total side note because I like this. What was your favorite writing segment that you did and that did really well? Like, what was it? I think one of my favorite moments that I ever got to capture on Pop Sugar was when I did this dating experiment called Updating. And it's this show by these two comedians in New York. And it is essentially a blind date on a live stage. Oh my God.

In front of an audience. And you are blindfolded. Insane. Insane. That is insane. And I consider myself a pretty good dater. Like I'm, you know, I'm cool on a first day. Like I got some swagger, whatever.

But being in front of a live audience and the adrenaline rush that hit you directly in your veins was something I have never experienced in my life. And to be able to write about that and articulate what happened and share a with the world was so fun and I was really, really proud of that. Well, I know you and Sean didn't meet like that. We did not. What happened to that? Did you guys hit it off? So with that, it was a really fun date. We had a lot of great rapport and a lot of good chemistry. And it was really, really fun to engage with the audience. Like, we would hear them laugh at like each other's jokes and things like that. And it was so great. But I think we were both there for the rush of the date and not so much for

the seriousness of a relationship. So we texted a little bit. But this was also January. 2020. So perfect timing. Things fell off. I moved out of New York. I'm in San Diego now and yeah. There you go. Let's talk really quick on the difference between dating in a major city and like a smaller city. So I consider where we are in San Diego smaller. Yeah. As far as it's considered like New York in L.A., which we've been and you were in San Fran. What did you find the major differences to be? Well, when I was dating in San Francisco and in New York, I felt like dating was this full contact sport I was part of. Like it was constant. It was a barrage of new people all the time. I was having so many different conversations all at once.

And I found myself in this mindset of like big fish, big pond. There are lots of people here to date and I'm going to go date them all. They were like Pokemon. Right. And then when you date in a small town, this is actually my hometown. It felt so different. It felt like I was dating people who were interested in the house and the 2.5 kids and the dog and the white picket fence on date one or two. and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I'm used to having two dates in a night. What is? Man, I remember those days.

I remember those, I mean, in New York when you would double book. Double book? Because you could. You could feasibly do it. And you know what? I think there's an argument for doing it. I call it a dating doubleheader. And I think there is an argument for setting yourself some boundaries

around how much time and energy you're going to devote to dating. And I wouldn't recommend this for anything other than a first date. But I think there is an argument for keeping your vision. Thursday nights, for example, open for dating. That's when you book your dates. That's when you do it. And when you have a first date, maybe you book it for 7 p.m. And someone else says, oh, I'm free Thursday. Okay. So you bump your 7 p.m. to your 6 p.m. And you book your other date for 8 p.m. You don't have more than one drink or one, whatever it is you're doing on a date. And you kind of leave both parties wanting more if it went well. If it didn't go well, you're out of there on time because

you got to be somewhere. They don't need to know where you have got to be, by the way. They're a stranger. they don't get that information. But I think that allows you to keep some boundaries around it and check in with yourself and kind of guard your heart and say, this is how much time I'm going to spend with this person. And if after that hour and a half or whatever that you have a lot of to spend with them, you're still thinking about them. You're still interested. Something can develop. And if not, you haven't wasted each other's time. Totally. And I'm with you. And I think the key here too is diversifying your portfolio, if you will, of I'm a big proponent of dating multiple people. And I think, I think, listen, once you start sleeping with somebody, that's when it's like,

okay, I can understand you being like, yeah, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm very much of the, okay, once I've been intimate with somebody, it's like, okay, let me just focus on this person. Doesn't mean that I'm their girlfriend, which I'm glad we have to clarify. But it just means that they're going to get my intention. And I know that there are a lot of people out there that say they struggle to date multiple people, but I find that at one, it stops you from hyper-focusing on one. It allows you to date different kinds of personalities.

start to see what works, what doesn't. It also just, it makes you feel better and good to be like, cool, wow, there's a lot of people that want to talk to me. There's a lot of people that I want to go out with as opposed to allowing dating, which we're going to get into, to start affecting your mental health. Because that, I think, is the trickiest part with dating is I think so many people are just dealing with the burden. Dealing with the burnout and dealing with the confidence highs and lows.

Yeah. Right. For me, something that was so exciting about dating multiple people at a time was the constant reminder that like, I've got this. I'm a catch. And there are people who want to date me. And so if someone disappoints me and doesn't measure up and, you know, flakes on the first date or whatever, like, I have other people in my roster, so to speak, who have held the ball, you know, and kept their side of the deal and arranged a lovely date for me and not said something like, I'm playing video games. If you want to come over, you can. Bye. The low effort is shocking to me

sometimes. Especially living in New York. I've gotten some where you're like, I'm sorry, did you just asked me to just come over to your house for dinner. For the first time ever, it's like, either you'll have a great time or you'll wake up without a kidney. Like, I don't know, I guess we're going to see. That can be really jarring, right? When someone says something like that to you and you're not used to the dating scene, it can feel like, am I supposed to say yes to this? Do other people say yes to this? Is he going to think I'm weird or insecure or I don't trust him if I say no? But I think a really powerful line that I learned to use a lot in dating is I don't do that on first dates. Yeah.

This is who I am and what my boundary is. That's it. I don't do that on first dates, but let me know if you have a favorite bar in Blah neighborhood, wink face. It's still flirty. It's still fun. It still gives them a chance to course correct. But if they don't, farewell. Yeah.

And I think it's like for me, if somebody's fucking asking me to come to their house, I usually I'm like, I think you just let us know your intentions fairly quickly because especially like, I mean, when I dated in New York, I dated in New York. And like, in all due fairness, I moved to New York in 2009. I had just her 19 literally days before I had moved. And when I got there, it was, OK, Cupid had just come out. It was so new. And I remember this girl I was working with.

She was on match. And she met this guy. And I remember being like, wait, how did she do this? And I was a very active person when I lived in New York, like always at a bar. I had my sister's fake ID. So I was 19. Nice. Skipping around town. I had my whole hat on.

I had, you know what, it was not a great fucking time. It's a time and a place for that phase of life. Exactly. The whole era is important. Early 20s, we did it. We had a great time. No, 20s too. But in my 20s, great.

And I learned a lot about myself and I learned a lot about other people. But it was wild to go from meeting people at bars, meeting people through friends. Like most of the people I dated, I'm trying to think like in the early dates in New York, we're all meeting out, meeting through people. So when the apps came out, I remember just being like, wait, this feels weird. But I liked OKCupid because of the amount of content that people were able to share. What I hated about OKCupid was that it showed you when they were online and how often they responded. So if you really liked a guy, like, you know, so my first time I got ghosted was from a guy I'm in on OKCupid.

And he was, oh. You never forget your first ghost. You never forget. Because especially I was, I was 20. I didn't know what the fuck this was. I remember I like played it well, you know, quote unquote. Like we had like 10 dates and I didn't sleep with him. And then we finally did.

And he, God, damn it. he was a tall drink of water. His name was Peter. He was like 6-6, gorgeous, like, just all the things. And I remember, like, being so excited and every date was better than the one before. And when we were, like, supposed to watch a true blood, we were going to go to, like, a party. And I'd seen him that afternoon accidentally on the street. And I remember he kissed me goodbye. He's like, all right, baby, I can't wait to see you tonight. I'm so stoked. And we had just had the conversation of exclusivity a couple of nights before. Like, perfect. This was going well. And I remember I text him like, hey, I'm on my I'll see you there. And I like took myself out to dinner and I didn't hear from him. And then I

remember later I was like, I still didn't hear from him. And I like legit got ghosted. So for everybody wondering, that's what ghosting means. That's a harsh ghost. That was a full fledged ghost. Full frontal ghost. Boo, scary, et cetera. Like never heard from him again. I saw him like two weeks later on the street and I flicked him off and I get a text from him like, it was cowardice what I did. I owe you an explanation. I never got that explanation. But what made the dating app so difficult for me was going on and seeing him on there still and seeing him like message my friend. who had seen his profile and I was like, man, this is where I can see how the dating apps can affect your mental health. But that's more just my shitty story. It's also, you know, giving someone

the time of day, right? Like you got to, you got to block and release some of that stuff too. And it's not easy to do, especially when you're young and you're new to dating and all of that. Fun fact, I also got on OKCupid in 2008. I was in college writing my senior thesis for my sociology degree on the onset of online dating and whether or not it was helpful in terms of agoraphobia, that is a fear of socialization, a fear of socializing rather. We've in the house, yeah. Yes. And my thesis was that online dating could really help with this because it could allow you

to meet people. If you're not comfortable in a bar, you're not your best version of yourself out in public, maybe this would be a way for people to connect. But interestingly, what the research found is that if you're very socially fluent in person, you are the exact same way online. And the reverse is also true. So dating apps are a tool and they are a place for you to exude your personality, but they're not going to change anyone's mindset. That's up to you.

A hundred percent. And I think this is even a great place for us to start kind of going into like the ditty gritty when it comes to the dating apps. Because I think a lot of people come to me like I have a client and we go over his profile and there are so many missed opportunities that I don't quite think people understand. Like your dating app is your persona. This is your best foot forward. So it's being really cognizant of like, do you have too many selfies? Are there too many angles? Are there too many filters? Are there too many group photos? Do you have anything of you? Like I love my client and he had one photo of himself and then other things. And I was like, I love you, we got to change this. We got to change this. Well, let's talk about it. Let's talk about photos. Let's talk about dating app profile stuff. So there was a company called Lumina that did a study in, I think it was 2020 about what people like and don't like about dating out photos. And one of the, um, one of the, core findings was that they found one of the things that people said was their favorite thing to see on a dating app was a picture of someone doing an activity. And so that makes a lot of sense,

right? Because that's often a full body pick. So you get a sense of what they look like fully. You also get a sense of what their interests are, what they like to do. I mean, let's face it. We see a lot of pictures of a lot of guys, hold it a fish. You know what I'm talking about. We see it all the time. But listen, that is an activity. That is something they've done. And, you know, if they're trying to showcase the fact that they love the great outdoors or killing animals or whatever it is, I gleaned some information about them. And I also think this one's for the guys. I'm going to throw this bone at the guys. Let's hear it. I think that there are a lot of opportunities for women to take pictures of themselves with their friends all the time.

Women have a tendency to let me take a picture of you. You look so pretty right now. Guys don't say that to each other as often. And so, you know, when a man rips an animal out of its natural environment on riding on the water, that might be a great opportunity for his straight bro to say, hey, bro, let me take a picture of you in that huge fish. And then that's the picture he has. I think that's the situation a lot of guys get into is they simply don't have a lot of photos of themselves. No, totally.

I'm with you. I think, like, photos are such an important aspect because I see this all the time, too, where it's like, you'll look at a profile. I'm like, why are you showing me like the food that you ate yesterday or the sunset? It's like, use this opportunity. And it's like, listen, I'm not saying to go fucking hire a professional photographer. No. But like, like, you have friends.

You got family. Somebody. It's like, ask them like, hey, man, can you do me a favor and just take a quick photo? They don't need to know why. They don't need to know that it's for a dating app. But just reminding yourself, okay, cool. If I'm looking through my phone and I only have photos from like 15 years ago, then maybe it's time for me to when I'm casually out, like I was selling my client.

I'm like, next time you go out to dinner with your friends, just ask them. Hey, do you mind taking a photo? I love this view. Yeah. Make it casual. Make it fun. And if, and if you are close with them, say, I'm really trying to do the dating thing. People love talking about dating. People love it. And they want to support you in it. Totally. So I think if you're, if you're hesitant to do that, I can completely understand. But dip a toe in with a friend. Hey, can you take a picture of me? I think I want to put it on a dating app. Totally. People are ready to talk about that. And, you know, there's so much content out

there on how to take a great photo, how to take a great mirror selfie. Like a couple searches on TikTok and your feed will be full of tips and tricks. Yeah, the algorithm loves that. Yeah. But I think with the profile photo, you know what? Actually, I was reading, there's a psychology study. They were saying that when people, and I can understand this because I started looking at tech guys photos and even mine.

And I was like, oh, when somebody has a photo where there's an angle. So, you know, like the selfie where it's from above, remember very 2008, a very like emo. So when somebody has a ton of selfies where it's coming from above, that actually shows a sign of insecurity. What shows security is when they're face on where their top of their crown meets the chin. And I remember talking to tech guy about it. And that was his main photo was him staring straight at it. And I was like, it showed such a confidence in who you were and all of mine.

Same thing. Like, I had full body. Listen, I'm not trying to hide anything. So ladies, I understand if you're feeling insecure about what you got going on, that's okay. But you got to be honest with it. You got to be honest with it. And that was actually in that luminous study as well. They said something like 20% of respondents will swipe left if they,

if they don't see a full body. Because they have to assume you have something to hide. And like, let's face it, dating is physical. There is a physical component to romantic connection. There is also, I firmly believe, a lid for every pot out there. So I physically am really confident in my body. And I also know I'm not everybody's type. And that's okay.

And I think that there are all shapes and sizes out there, and there are all different interests out there. And so the best thing you can do for yourself, confidence and your sense of self-worth is to embrace what you got and put it on your profile. Because I like to think of your dating profile as sort of your book. It's your personal book. It's your memoir. It's who you actually are. Put your best foot forward, but put all of you forward. Yeah, I love that. And I think, I think with the profile pictures, like, it's just also being cognizant of like, who are we trying to, what are we trying to kid here? What are we doing here?

What are we doing? And like, listen, realistically speaking, I think I was very proud when I would go out with any guy. And I'd be like, do I look my photos? And they're like, oh, much better in person. And I'm like, oh, we love that. But I would, I remember the first date I had in L.A. when I moved there. Bless his heart. Yeah, yeah, actually, no, he was a fucking dick. But he was the, he was the second drink guy. He was the one that just went right in it for a second drink. And I didn't just hate that. We didn't discuss this. And when he showed, like, all of his photos, I didn't realize at the time were side profile photos, was everything was like that. And so when we met in person, he was like, he had a terrible smile.

He was super anxious, super self-conscious. He kept, like, hiding his mouth. And I was like, okay, that's an insecurity. And I understand that. And I was trying to be there to support. And it's the same with, like, the guys that are, you know, a dude told me he was six feet and he shows up. I'm 5'8. He was shorter than me.

We walked by a mirror and I saw it. And I was like, listen, I'm going to figure this out. And what I feel like, I'd rather you have been honest and I make it in my fucking search, same with the age, versus you lying to me. And then I show up at that point, I've turned off. Yep. That's it. So if you're trying to hide something about who you are, assess where that insecurity is coming from and start to heal that wound that then you can feel confident in your body, who you are. Listen, we can't change it. We can't swap it out. Absolutely. I can't

make myself taller. Absolutely. Assess where it's coming from and deal with that wound. I think that's a really, really well said component to this, Sabrina. And I also think another important component is think about whatever it is that you're insecure about. If the person on the other end of that date is going to notice this thing within the first five seconds of this date, you're better off clarifying it before you get in the room. If it's something that needs to be addressed, I'm not talking about, hey, I wish I'd lost 20 pounds before this date. I'm not talking about that. But I'm talking about if you have a real insecurity that is going to hinder your ability to have a one-on-one conversation with someone and feel good about it, it's important to say that before a date.

I once went on a date with a guy who, no joke, had a glass eye. And he was super cute and we had so much fun. And we ended up dating for a bit. But the second we got on the date, maybe a drink in, he goes, I feel like you're staring at my glass eye. So I just have to tell you about this. And it was so sweet. And it was, you know, vulnerable.

And the way that he brought it up was fine. But I thought, you know, this has been going over and over in his head this entire date. And it was probably really distracting for them. Like, I wonder if he had just. said when we were chatting like, hey, I have a glass eye, you might notice, you might not, I can't wait to meet you. I don't know. Would that have changed his level of comfort on the date? Maybe. Yeah. I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's like about, you want to, you know, the best tip I can give when you're about to go on a first date, it's like you want to enter with

your best foot so that you feel confident. Because remember, a first date is not to assess if this is your partner, if this is your soulmate, if this is your ride or die, oh my God, this has to work. I'm tired of dating. I can't. The first date is to see if you even want, want to see this person again. And you leave going asking yourself this one very important question. I don't give a flying. Fuck how you felt about them on the date. What I care more about is how did I feel with them? Did I feel? That's why truthfully sold. I've told tech I this a million times. I'm like, I never thought I was going to see him again. I thought when I was going to leave our date, we hooked up. I left and I was like, I am never going to get a phone call from this guy. I was

like, this guy didn't like me. He was so quiet. You know, he was like a little more reserved. He's a quiet guy At first. At first, like, takes time. And that's why I was very confused by him. And now we all know who he really is. And I love it. Big goofball. Like, thank God I'm so grateful I kept going.

But the reason I kept going was because when I left, all I kept thinking was, but I felt really good when I was with him. I felt seen, heard, and understood. I felt like this was somebody that genuinely cared about what I had to say. And I didn't feel like I was performing. I didn't feel like I had to be anything. I came home not feeling high or low, just feeling equilibrium. That's beautiful.

And that's a beautiful tip for anyone who's insecure, maybe about their personality or going on a date and acting too shy or saying the wrong thing is like, if you have chemistry with someone, you can't mess it up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sure, you could hit them with your car or something and ruin the date. But just bringing your whole self to the date. And if that results in chemistry with another person, you're not going to mess up if you spill your drink a little bit. Right. Can't think of the next question right away or something like that. It's a reminder that, you know, first dates are supposed to be a chemistry check.

And they are also, I will shout it from the rooftops. First dates are supposed to be fun. Yeah. You're supposed to have fun with somebody. So if you are getting so in your head and your heart about it and you can't relax before you go on that date and you're so nervous the whole time because what if you mess up, you're robbing yourself of something really beautiful, which is the romantic dance. Think about it.

It's the, this is the only time this is going to happen with this person. You only get one first date. So enjoy it. And like, that's my thing. Don't fucking enter it with like, I'm going to trauma dump all over this person or I'm going to tell them everything that's wrong with me or I'm going to tell. This is not the time nor the place because here's the thing. You don't know who this person is.

You've got to be very careful. The information you give a total fucking stranger. Absolutely. And secondly, this person doesn't know you well enough to be able to support you through that. And I actually learned that firsthand. I had a date with this guy. We have now remained friends.

ever since. Like, we just, we kissed like once, you know, it was nothing. And I remember on our second date, we started talking and all of a sudden we got onto the topic of family. And at the time, I wasn't, I didn't have a boundary about what I was willing to share. And I started crying on the date. And he just looked at me and he was like, I am by no means turned off by this. He was like, I just don't know how to support you through this because I don't know you. That's a very informed thing to say. He's on his part. Awesome, dude. And I remember, and like, and the next day I was, I was fucking mortified. I remember leaving being like, I'm never going to see this guy again. And I sent him an apology. And he left me a voice note. And he was like, please don't apologize.

Like you were human. I just wanted to be real with you. And, you know, we ended up talking a few dates later. It wasn't a connection. We have since then been super cool, like tight homies. And that's what I mean about how you can't mess it up if there's chemistry there. Because what you had, what you discovered was some friend chemistry. And that's actually awesome. And like, yeah, you cried on the, that's mortifying. And it's a great story for your podcast. And Here we are. Here we are. But you made a friend.

Yeah. You made a connection. And that's the other thing is that first dates are supposed to be fun and they are supposed to be a chemistry check. But if there are neither of those things, if there's no chemistry, you're not having fun. You don't like this person. You want to go. You still signed up to do a first date.

So should you draw it out? Absolutely not. You should leave after one drink or one hour or whatever it is. But you are still face to face with another person. And it's your responsibility to honor. the commitment you made to just have a conversation with a fellow human being. I think it's, I think it's unreasonable to walk into the date, take a look at the person and say, I'm actually not into this. I have to go after 10 minutes. You know, that's, that's, it's a naturally cruel,

in my opinion. And I think that any of us can have a friendly conversation, like an airplane conversation with someone for half an hour and, and wrap it up as quickly as possible. I think that's kind and that's good dating karma. No, and I love that. I think that's a really good tip, too. And it's like, here, here's a thing. If you feel burned out with dating, if you don't want to put yourself through that, have a fucking vibe check on a FaceTime. I did that a lot, especially like when I was dating actively. And after a while, it's like, you just get tired of it. You get tired of being like, I don't, I don't want to go on another date where I'm not feeling it. So I had, and I'm so grateful that I did those because there was nothing wrong with the other person. So here's also the thing. So here's also the thing. Let's like call the elephant out in the room. Just because you met somebody in a dating app does not mean it's a commitment and does not mean that they automatically want the same things as you. People date on apps for very different reasons. Some people are newly out of a relationship, just dipping their toe. Some people are open to a relationship, but just not with every person that they meet. And so being cognizant of that is super important. I was very intentional with my dating, but that didn't mean any Tom Dick or Harry, the first guy I met was the guy who was going to be in a relationship with. So having that vibe check on.

FaceTime spared me so many dates. And here's also the thing, it's a lot less personal. It wasn't because anything was wrong with the guy. I just wasn't picking up what he was putting down. Maybe our lifestyles were different. Our goals were different. They traveled a ton and I didn't. I had a dog and I had a business and I was like, that it's not sustainable. This is not, I don't want to see you once every three weeks. Like, that doesn't work for me. And so I think entering into the dating field with a bit of a healthier mindset of I'm going in just to see if we have compatibility and also realizing that when you leave, nobody owes you anything. Tech guy taught me. Beautiful. Nobody owes you anything because they are a stranger. And I think we talked a bit about

this notion when we were preparing for this about holding dating loosely. And that's a huge part of it, right? Is that managing your expectations around the fact that this stranger doesn't owe you anything and reminding yourself that you don't owe them anything in return that allows you to be more comfortable dating multiple people at the same time. That allows you to be more comfortable sending that, hey, it was really nice to meet you. Thanks for the movie tickets. I don't think this is a long-term connection. Sending that text really cleanly, not drawing it out, not making it dramatic, allows you to hold it loosely, move on. Totally. And I love that. And I think, you know, one thing that I don't think people realize is like, so after a first date, I'll get this all the time. I got ghosted. And I'm like,

no, no, no, no, no. That's not ghosted. You didn't get ghosted just because somebody doesn't want to see you again. That person decided they're not picking up what you're putting down. They don't owe you a response. You could tell them, hey, I had a really great time. And if they just write, thanks me too. And then you never hear from them again or if they just don't respond, that is their way. Because here's the thing, I've been on, I've been on both sides of rejection. It sucks either way. Getting rejected sucks. But you know what also sucks? Rejecting somebody else. Because in my heart, I was like, you know, but this guy's a good guy. I don't want to hurt somebody. And so I think there's also that element of if somebody is honest with you and says, hey, just didn't think this was a connection after a few dates, whatever.

Thank them. Thank you so much for telling me, honestly, I really appreciate that. That's it. You don't need to protest. You don't need to ask, but why, but you don't even really know me. Give me some examples. It's not necessary because no one, do you think people want to hurt other people intentionally? Are they going to look at you and be like, you know why I didn't like this?

Duh. It's like, because then they're like, yeah, that was mean. People want to be nice. There are bad apples out there. Totally. There are people who relish in that kind of thing. but that is not the majority of the people dating. And by the way, when you ask someone, give me some examples, tell me why you're dumping me.

No one's honest. No one's honest. They're coming up with something they can say that's going to hurt your feelings the least. And it's probably going to be contextually useless. Completely. And you're going to run it through your mind 100,000 times. And it's not going to be helpful. So like, I'm not ready for a relationship.

And it's like, listen, that's why people ask, what do you think is an excuse? I'm like, doesn't matter. You know what the only useful information here is? they have not decided to continue with you. Absolutely. We don't need to know more. And you know what? I think there are a lot of people out there who would say I'd rather get ghosted

than get that text of that non-reason for why they're not interested in me or it's them, not me or whatever. So I think there is a case for what some people may call ghosting, which is after that first date and someone says, hey, I had a really good time with you. Are you free again Thursday? And you don't hear back? There's a case for that. That person couldn't come up with the thing to say, whatever.

It doesn't matter. They're out of your life now and you're moving on to the next. I think ghosting, what you talked about at the beginning, several dates, can't wait to see you tonight. I mean, that's ghosting. That's, that's, you, did you fall off the face of the earth? Are you kidding me? I thought the motherfucker died. And then when I saw him a week later, I was like, he be it's a shit.

What an asshole. Yeah. But, you know, you can't, I'm off the belief system that you cannot go someone if you have not met with them in person. Dating app conversations fall off all the time. Can we talk? Thank you for entering us into this conversation of some do's and don'ts here. I'm going to share with you my biggest point of contention here. Now let's talk about something really quick. And for anybody that follows along with me, you know about what I'm about to say. Stop engaging in a fucking digital relationship. Stop texting somebody for three months before you meet them.

Stop FaceTiming every single fucking night for hours and phone calls and text messages because here's what happens. You create a false sense of intimacy. You create, first of all, you have tone. You have nons. You have nests. no idea how that person meant to say anything because you don't know them. You create, you're only seeing this person how they want you to see them. You're only seeing them when they're home and they're in their bedroom and they're calm and they're FaceTiming you. Did you see them when they just got told no? Did you see them when they just got bad news? Have you seen them when they're in a bad mood? No. You're seeing the perfect version. And what happens is when you text, text, text, text, instead of focusing on let me meet this person and see if we have a vibe,

what you also do is, it's inevitable. You guys are going to run out of things to say, so then the future planning stuff's going to happen. And you're going to get so enamored. And Lisa, I can't tell you how many people write into me. I don't understand. Everything was great. We were texting nonstop before.

And then after a first date, he didn't want to see me again. What changed? I'm like, you are no longer a fantasy. You're now a reality. Precisely. I'm so glad you're bringing this up. Let's talk about it a lot. Please.

And I will admit, I've been there. I've done this. In my early days of dating. 100%. talk to multiple people for months before meeting up in person. And it was fun for me, too, because I had a fantasy. Right. And everything I didn't know about that person, I had filled in the details on myself. And I had created this perfect Kendall of exactly who my unrealistic fantasy boyfriend was. And it wasn't them. Obviously, if you try and make those plans and the other person isn't

as interested in that, that's because they don't want to give up the fantasy. This is fun for them. this is playtime for them. Yeah. This isn't reality. And so if you find yourself in that situation, first, give yourself some grace. It's really easy to fall into that situation. It's delicious. You have someone to text every day.

Your FaceTiming, cute, cute. All of the brain chemicals are rushing into you and saying, this is lovely. So give yourself some grace about that. But also give yourself the self-respect to realize that it is your responsibility to guard your own heart and protect your own self in a situation like that and realize that what that other person is doing on the other end of that is truly taking advantage of you. Yeah, I 100%.

And you got to cut it off. And I think there's often this, well, how am I going to get to know them? It's like, again, if you, okay. In person. If you can't spend time with somebody, then how are you going to have a relationship with this person? And I get this all the time of the long distance. Can we talk about dating apps and long distance?

I understand. Here's where I think long distance is acceptable. Either you met at a wedding or like one of my clients this morning. we had a call and he's like, I met this girl when I was out, and we spent all night together, and then I got her number. She's only two hours away. Okay, fine, fine. You were both in a different city. It worked out. You just so happened to not be that far from each other. Great. And he even said, he's like, I'm giving it another week. If she's not willing to meet me, I'm not wasting any more time. Beautiful. Love that. But if you are meeting somebody in an app that is 3,000 miles away,

or they're cross country. And it's like, well, what else are we going to do? It's like, again, you're creating a digital relationship. It's not real. If you don't have the financial means, the time, the resources, the bandwidth, the energy, both two very willing participants, not to mention are either of you moving? Are you going to be in the same place? Because then again, what the fuck is the point? And instead, your self-esteem gets so tied into this and then you take it personally out there must be something wrong with me without understanding you literally have nothing to go off of if you haven't spent time with this person. To me, that doesn't exist. Absolutely. I think the biggest thing with long distance is what's the plan for shortening the

distance. And if the plan's not there, you're operating in a fantasy relationship that it may be very fun and maybe serving some need for you. But if it's wasting the other person's time or your time, you really got to examine that and ask yourself why you think you don't deserve something full circle in person, full time. Yeah. And it's like, and that's, you go get that for yourself because you do deserve it. 100%. And that's, that's the fun of exploring. Okay, where is this coming from? Why am I doing this? What is my reasoning? Like, that's self-awareness. And self-awareness is going to be crucial if you have anxiety, is anxiety going to take over you or are you going to take over the anxiety? Self-awareness is the first place to start because otherwise it's an explanation or an excuse.

You know, then you just kind of write off all your bad behavior and get, well, if you don't like me at my worst, you don't get me at my best. It's like, no, bitch. No, how about control your own emotions and manage your expectations when you're going out there? Another hot dating tip is don't come in with that mentality when you're on a first date. Please don't. Well, if he doesn't like that I'm always 10 minutes late, oh well or whatever. Like, don't be late. It's a first date. Set your, set your best foot forward. You know, I talked to a lot of my girlfriends who are like, well, you know, if he doesn't like my attitude or he thinks I'm too sassy or whatever, it's like I feel like a lot of that comes from a mindset of, again, like we talked about earlier, looking for the negative,

waiting for someone, expecting someone to disappoint you. And when you do that on first dates, you set yourself up for failure. And to go back to constructing a quality dating app, You can also do that on your dating app and set yourself up for failure. So an example I like to draw on is open your dating app right now and look through your profile and look for anywhere that you've said something with a negative tone. I don't like this or I avoid that, something of that nature. And look for a way to flip it to the positive. So instead of I'm addicted to my job, I'm really proud of the work I do.

And here are some other hobbies I have outside of that. You know, look for ways where someone else may read. your words negatively and see if you can flip that. Because again, it's your brand. It's your story. And when you're setting your best foot forward, it should be in a positive light. 100%. I can't tell you how turned off I used to get when I would see profiles of guys being like, well, still single at 35. So I guess I'm on a dating app. Like, burn, dude. I'm here too. And I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be meeting people. The self-deprecation does not play well on your dating app profile. No. Save that for in person. Have some fun. Knock yourself a little bit.

I hated the like, yeah, like biggest risk I've taken, oh, darting this out. And it's like, or like, I'm never, no, I never want to admit that I'm on a dating app. It's like, okay, let's talk about the prompts really quick here. This is your, this is valuable information. This is perimo real estate. I have diversified my portfolio in that sense. I gave something serious where it was like, you should go out with me if like you're growth minded and driven, like I'm very, whatever. Tech guy probably loved that. Loved it, loved it, loved it. And it was like, it was more meaty. Then I have. another one where it was like sign of a first grade, like sign of a first great date. It actually happens, new from L.A. to New York or whatever, new from New York to L.A., go easy on me.

And so I was like, I was giving a little bit of bait for like, all right, come roast me. Like, come at me. Let's go. I'm new here. And then it was like, let's make sure we're on the same page about eating dinner, eating dessert before dinner, eating dinner to get to dessert and then always having snacks. I gave three very different prompts to talk to me about. And of course, what did tech I go in? Great. What are the different? He came in hot. What are the differences between LA and New York and now San Diego and blah, blah, blah, blah. And he gave a full-on paragraph where I was like, wow, he read my profile. He actually has something to say.

There's a quality of depth here. But if you are just putting on there for fuck's sake, like, let's the most controversial pineapple on pizza or fluent and sarcasm. God damn it, you're not fluent and sarcasm is not a language. Sarcasm is not a language. And now, you know what? Here's a thing. You're probably not.

If you have to say it, you're probably not. And frankly, I don't really want someone who's going to be super sarcasmuchism. with me. Here's another PSA for the gentleman. Women don't really like to be roasted all the time. I see guys interact that way. I see Sean interact that way with his friends, with his brother. You know, guys like to roast each other in a way that doesn't always translate to a romantic partner. Totally. I love what you did with your prompts too in that you gave all of these areas for conversation about very different parts of yourself. So I want to speak to the notion of a great, the mark of a great first date is it actually happening.

That's a great way to show people like, here's how I like to be treated. You invite me for a date? I expect that date to happen. I said something similar on my profile. And I actually, I can't take credit for this. I saw it on TikTok. Oh, TikTok. Oh, TikTok.

God bless. Yeah. And it was, it was the prompt about what turns you on. And I said, I am turned on by, I made reservations for seven for Saturday night where that dress I like. Because that gave a lot of information to someone. It said, I like a guy who kind of takes the wheel on planning the date. I also love dressing up. I'm very into clothes and fashion and putting together a great first date. And I love feeling like a guy really appreciates that and

complements me and like thinks I look sexy. I love all of that. And so by putting that on my profile, I got a lot of guys being like, should I make reservations here or there for Saturday night, you know, wear the red dress in your picture or something like that. And it made me feel like we were already flirting. And it also made me feel very heard and seen by them because they were picking up what I was putting down. Totally. And I think it's like utilize that space for people to start a conversation. Like it's not a space for you to just give me travel tips to Cabo. It's like I'm not your traveling. Yeah. It's like, come on guys. Like let's become a little bit more creative here and let's give people an opportunity to talk to you not to say I want someone that doesn't take

themselves too seriously. It's like, oh, you and everybody. Oh, you want somebody that's arrogant and really fucking self-centered. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for putting that on there. No drama here. Oh, okay. Right. I don't know what to do with that. I think another one of my prompts that did really well in terms of just like allowing people to show me who they were is I said my love language is fun facts about nature because I love nature. I'm from a very nature loving family and I and I love animals. And so I would get a lot of fun facts about like one of my favorite ones I ever got was pilot whales flirt on their migration to breeding grounds. So they will whatever, flirt with each other. in all these adorable ways that whales flirt.

I learned a lot. What would kill me is if someone would see my love language is fun facts about nature, and then they would say, okay, Lisa, shoot me a fun fact. Yeah, it's like, wow, low effort, huh? Lazy. Lazy. And I would just unmatch. I wasn't interested in calling them out, wasting my time calling them out.

Absolutely not. But I also wasn't interested in entertaining some guy who went to my profile, read through my stuff, and is now asking me to give him more information than I already have. 100%. I think what would drive me fucking insane on the apps is the people that would respond every few days. And they'd be like, I'm not on here very often super busy. I'm like, then what are we doing? What are we doing? I want to speak to that idea of how often and how quickly you should engage on the apps. Because for me, I think it was very important for me to set boundaries around my time of when I was engaging.

And so if I was swipe and swipe and swipe and swiping, you know, on Bumble, the lady reaches out first. So I'd throw my outreach out there really quickly. And I'd sort of let it. rest for a while. And then, you know, that was my lunch break. And then after I finished work, I'd go back in, see who's responded. Now I'm having conversations. What have you. What I didn't like doing was getting into a conversation with someone and suddenly finding myself sitting there as the sun went down. And I'm staying, having that conversation, talking about so much before I've even met this person. Then now I'm developing a relationship with them. And we haven't set a date. We're not doing anything. And so my way of mitigating my own overcompensation or people-pleasing tendencies

was to make sure I was very clear about how much time I was spending on the dating app. So I would be as strict as if we engaged in over like eight or ten messages and he still hadn't asked me out, I was done with the conversation. Yep. I love that. I love the boundaries around it because I was the same. I took notifications off. I did not need to be bothered. I will get to you when I have the time to open the app because otherwise then I'm, oh, I'm prioritizing somebody else. No, bitch. I got a fucking, I've got shit to do. And that's not playing games. That is taking care of yourself. Yeah. That's boundaries. That's boundaries. That is protecting yourself. And I would want someone to do the same. It's kind of a turnoff if you send someone a message who you haven't even

met yet. And they're like, hey, I'm driving. I pulled over so I could message you back right away. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, chill out. Yeah. And I like, I appreciated like when tech guy and I matched by the time we talked and it's like, we had the conversation. He went like, it was boop, boop, boop. And then it was clear after maybe 30 minutes like, okay, we're clearly clicking. we were back and forth, back and forth. It was like we were both on our phones. We were both engaging this conversation. And then it went straight to, let me get your number.

Let's plan this. Then we weren't right to texting, maybe 10 minutes of texting back and forth to finalize the plan. And then that was it. It was like, okay, cool, can't wait, super excited. I'll see you. This was like on like a Tuesday.

And it was like we were supposed to get together. And then I had to reschedule because I wasn't feeling well, Thanksgiving, that da, da, da. And it's like, we didn't talk for a couple of days. That is totally normal. Totally normal. Completely normal. I prefer a dude that'll at least just text a couple of days before, like, hey, can't wait to see you Saturday, super excited.

And I remember being at, like, being at home and my mom was like, do you have a date today? And I was like, I don't fucking know. I even heard from him. And then like, sure enough, I get a text from him being like, like, at 10 o'clock. It's like, we said we were going to be at 11 at like 10.30. He was like, hey, heading out, see you there. And I was like, perfect. I love heading out, see you there, by the way.

Perfect. Because when you have those dating out conversations quite a bit where you're engaging and maybe you have day and maybe you. and maybe you have location, but you don't have time or something like that. And you're like, am I going on this date or not? I think a really nice line. I think this comes from Lindsay Metzler. She does the We Metaac. Me dating podcast. Love her.

Shout out to Lindsay. But she loves a very confident, can't wait to see you tonight, exclamation point. Remind me what time. That's my favorite. And here's a thing, too. Ladies, you can text a dude. Like, it's not the end of the world if before the date, let's say. Or like maybe, let's say you haven't heard from the guy.

And it's Friday night and you're like, okay, am I seeing him tomorrow? It's not the end of the world for you to be like, hey, super excited. We're getting together tomorrow? So then at least you know what the fuck your schedule looks like. And I know people will say, but I want him to make the move. Welcome to reciprocity. People can't reach your mind. Not everybody operates.

And not every guy is going to be hitting every single nail on the head because to him, I've had this before. I had a friend and he got all butt hurt. And he was like, I understand. I told the girl I was going to meet her Tuesday at 4.30 or like whatever. And I said, did you text her to confirm? He's like, yeah. Yeah, he was like, no, he was like, I said I was going to be there Tuesday 430, and I was like,

ah, here's the thing. And but, and then he goes, here's the thing. She never contacted me. And I was like, I said, listen, well, I understand that. But like, that's my point kind of of like, if she was, and then he texted her, he was like, hey, I'm here, where are you? And she's like, well, you never text me. He was like, you know, you can text me too, right? I think put the ego down. If you haven't heard from a guy and you're genuinely wondering, am I going to see him, not the end of the world to send a text. Absolutely. I am guilty of this. I will be the first to admit, I am the gal who doesn't like to text the guy, hey, are we on for tonight?

Because it made me feel like I was reaching out in a way that I didn't want to be reaching out. I wanted him to make the plan, yada, yada, yada. And I felt like I was being somehow whiny or naggy if I was following up and saying like, hey, do I have plans tonight? And what I really had to consciously teach myself and do some self-reflection on and do some inner child work around was that my time is valuable. And it is my job to protect my time and my boundaries. And when you're living in New York, there's always something else you could go out and be doing.

But that's true if you're living anywhere in the world. I could be taking a bath and reading a great book. But if I'm sitting there doing my eyeliner because I maybe have a date later and I'm just hoping he texts to confirm it, that's not in service to me. So I really had to teach myself that it's perfectly reasonable to say, hey, are we still on for tonight? It's on. And it shows the other person to respect my time. I was hoping to get a confirmation from you today. Are we still on? Exactly. And I think I love that. It's like it shows. And I like that you even accepted like where you said that was an insecurity. That was your own shit that you were dealing with. And it's okay to admit that and be like, oh yeah, that's my own thing. That's my own thinking of like maybe it's antiquated or maybe I saw that growing up or whatever. You know, like I was conditioned for that. But it's you have as much control over your dating life as anybody else. So why are you giving everybody the power to determine your schedule in your life? To me,

that's me having a lot of respect for myself and saying, listen, I could be doing 10,000 other things, including sitting on my couch, doing nothing watching trash TV. So are we doing this or not? Are we doing this or not? And I think it shows confidence and it can be a great reminder to you that you're in charge of your own destiny. I love that. Lisa, this was such a fun episode. I'm so glad we got to do this. I think a part two is 100% in store. I'm excited to see the feedback and see any other questions maybe people have for us after listening to this. Absolutely. I want to hear from you guys. Don't be shy. Please. And Lisa, let everybody know, again, I will link her in the show notes. So in case you forget where you can find her, you don't worry, it'll be there. But just in case,

can you let us know where we can find you. I am Lisa A. Holden on Instagram and TikTok. That is also my website, Lisa Aholden.com. You can read my blogs. You can also find me on Pop Sugar. And feel free to reach out, get in touch, DM me. And that will be fodder for, you know, our next episode together. Yay. So excited. Thank you guys again. and we'll see you next week.