The Sabrina Zohar Show - 22: Mindset and dating with Case Kenny

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina chats with Case Kenny to go over how mindset affects dating and the importance of doing the work on yourself to show up the best you can in dating! Buy Case's Book here! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello. And welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohart and I am going to be your host. Guys, I am over the moon. We have Case Kenny as our guest this week. I am so amped. He is one of my favorites. I have been following him on Instagram forever.

And I love he's a mindset coach. He's a podcast host. He's an author and he's just, he's got so many amazing things. So we talk all about mindset, anxiety, dating, everything that there is and how important mindset is in a successful dating life. And so without further ado, let's get right on into it. Awesome. Case, I am so excited to have you. Thank you so, so much for joining us. Of course. Thanks for having me. Of course. And for anybody who doesn't know who Case Kenny is, he's a writer, a podcaster, and he focuses all about mindfulness. So I felt like what better

synergy for do the work than for us to talk about mindfulness because I know at least for me for years, I didn't really understand the correlation between like the thoughts that I have. and the reality that I was living and how it could manifest and how things could happen. So I would actually love to even start kind of, how did you get into all of this? Like what's your journey with mindfulness and where you were to where you are now? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I'm 35 now when I was 28, 29, and I'll purpose as to say, like, I never had any aspiration to be in the like self-help field or mindfulness field or do anything like this.

Like, it's so funny that I do this. I joke that I share my feelings for a living. That's kind of how I describe what I do, professionally, never had an aspiration for this in any sense. So in a previous career life, I used to work in advertising and advertising sales and technology sales. When I was 28, I was doing that. I was doing a sales job in Chicago. I was leading a sales team. And when I turned 29, went through a breakup with someone that, you know, I was dating her for a long time. I was also traveling a lot with this job. Out of Chicago, I was going to like St. Louis and Toledo and

Columbus, just like Midwest little little jumping flights here and there. And, at that time of the breakup, I just kind of took a step back. I was like, man, it would be really unfortunate to look back in my life, 10, 20, 30 years from now and realize that I hadn't challenged myself to actually pursue a path or date people that really spoke to what I wanted, not what I thought was expected of me, now how I thought I should act as a man in every area of life. So you can call it a quarter life crisis. I don't like calling it a crisis, but it was just kind of that come to Jesus moment and I'm very type A. I was like, man, I don't have an answer to these questions. Why do I do this? Why do I feel this way?

and so forth. So my answer in a very meta way was to start a podcast. The rest is basically history there. It's a joke now, obviously, that every, you know, straight white dude starts a podcast as a way to connect with friends. But I did it in 2018 to connect with myself. I saw it as a means to kind of vulnerably and publicly ask myself questions, share what I've learned for myself to do it that way. And basically, the long of the short is I did that. I realized what I was doing, which was I was practicing mindfulness, started to help other people. And then you fast forward like three years into doing that. I quit my job to do it full time.

But basically just the story of me doing something that I needed, realizing what I was doing, mindfulness, and then just continuing to really pull on that chord of passion and interest and impact. And, you know, here we are now. Isn't it so fucking awesome how we can turn like pain into purpose and just finding, because I kind of have a similar journey where like, I mean, the podcast I started this. for what four months ago and it's mushroomed into this crazy thing where I was like yeah like for me

when I entered into this I had my own limiting belief of like nobody cares about what I have to say you know okay so what I was like you know I was anxious for a while and I dated all the wrong guys and you know you kind of go through like your own it's kind of gaslighting of myself of you know discrediting my own thoughts and telling myself that I'm not good enough and I'm not worthy in all of this and so when I started the podcast and same with the TikTok and the Instagram everything that just mushroomed on its own came from a true place of purpose and passion of like, okay, maybe I'm not alone. Maybe there are other people that might be experiencing the same thing that I'm experiencing and maybe this is a really great way to be able to speak to those people. Yeah, very much related.

I mean, I've always had, and continued to still have imposter syndrome here and there. Like, why should people listen to me? And I think it's healthy. I think if we diluted ourselves into being like, gather around children, I'm about to speak, it would be. be weird and we would be in the land of the not so healthy. So I think it's somewhat normal for that. But I mean, yeah, I mean, it really is a gift to do what we do. And I always, you know, it's very, I think I continue to do it. I'm about to hit episode 500 because what I do helps me first and foremost. Like it is my form of therapy. I do it every single day. I have grown immensely. I joke that I, you know, I have to go back and like reintroduce myself to people because I've changed so much through

what I do. And it helps other people. It's like the ultimate balance and, and, you know, gift to to be able to do it. But I think we all have things that we can share in life. Like you don't, I mean, it's great to be hyper qualified and be a trained therapist or licensed psychologist and things like that. But we have the most, we have human experience, which I think if we can find a way to vocalize it

and help other people, it's always worth sharing. And I've realized that because the people that I've learned most from in life or regular average people who have just been like, hey, here's something I learned. That has been so helpful. So seeing that continues to inspire me to do the same. glad you said something about imposter syndrome because sometimes, you know, it's like,

even I had a client this morning and he was like, man, I'm really struggling with imposter syndrome. I was like, cool. Okay, so it's not just me. You know, it's not just me who like, when we turn on the lights and like we say stuff because it's like, we are still humans behind doing all this. And there is a lot of like, like you said, I am very grateful to all the therapists out there and to all the code, to everybody out there that that has gone through school and has done that. But that doesn't automatically make you able to speak to people in a different way because you're looking at it very more cognitively. Like you're looking at it from a textbook that has taught you that versus lived experience, like at least for me, when I give anxiety tools and management, I'm like,

oh, no, no, no, this isn't just because I somebody told me to do this out of a book. This is because I actually had this experience. I know exactly where your mind is going. I know exactly the thoughts and the narrative that's starting to play. And here is how you can effectively cut through that. So I'm really glad it's not just me. But for, do you have any advice for anybody that suffers from imposter syndrome, especially in dating, you know, like kind of doing a lot of this work and getting back out there. Like, any tips or advice that you have for them? Yeah, well, I would say to segue nicely off of that, just to wrap that point up, I was on a panel the other week in LA and someone just said very simply, if you've lived through something, you've learned something. So I think we all

have something to share, no matter if you lived through it and had a great outcome or a bad outcome, we've all learned through it. And to your question about, you know, imposter syndrome and, you know, having frustrating dating experiences and coming out the other end and just kind of feeling beat up emotionally and you know the drain there you know it's cliche to say that tough experiences turn to wisdom but like I think about the topic of standards and boundaries right like where do these things come from in life where does our our vision of what we want come from in life unfortunately it doesn't come out of a vacuum although we can you know think of things that we want without experience but standards and boundaries they come from life experiences that were the opposite of those things like I talk to a lot of people who are nervous about being too picky or having too high of a standard. And the way I always help them ground it is tell me about the experience that taught you to have that standard. And if you could pinpoint it and you say, my standard is I demand loyalty and honesty, for instance. Okay, that's great.

Fantastic. Where did that come from? A majority of the times, unfortunately, it comes from times where they dated someone who was not honest or loyal. And I say, that sucks. I've got nothing of empathy for you. But when you can prove on a linear line, experience the standard, that is what makes it on break. that is what turns a lived experience into a learned truth. And when it comes to like topics of imposter syndrome,

whether it's in dating or your career, like if you live through something, you can say this is why, this is where this aspiration or goal or standard comes from, you know, it doesn't necessarily diminish the doubt that you might have, but you're like a lawyer, like, here's the proof, here's the evidence, and here's the outcome, like you can prove it to yourself, which I think gives you like more consistency than saying like,

oh, you know, this and that. It's like, no, this and that, because, because of this and that. So I just like my whole approach to mindfulness is very observation based. It's I have lived through A, therefore I believe B. And that's much stronger than saying, I believe B. Because I know I've lived through A, therefore I believe B. And we all have a massive memory bank of good experiences, bad experiences,

times where we achieved, times where we disappointed ourselves. And I think it's our job and the way that we combat imposter syndrome is to look through those memories and come up with that connective truth. No, and I love that. I think that's like my favorite practice that I learned in DBT therapy was like, where are the facts to back this up? Like put your thoughts on trial so that you can even, because I think like what a lot of people forget is like you are only alone with yourself.

You could have me in case with you all fucking day, but we can't control what's happening in your brain. So if you are having these thoughts, it's about being really cognizant of them and being able to say, wait, I need to call myself out of my shit. And I need to be able to say, is there actually, is there real turmoil that I'm creating this entire narrative for and my nervous system is starting to get dysregulated and all of that? Or is this an inner turmoil that is now being projected onto my next partner? Yeah, I mean, and there's so much there to unpack. I mean, I think the easiest way I always try

to describe it to get people to be incentivized to do what you just described, which is tough. Because when we're anxious or overwhelmed or feeling down on ourselves or depressed, what you just described is the most difficult thing to do in the world because it requires vulnerability and forward thinking and forgiveness. I always try to encourage people literally to what you described to to say that in life, you have facts and feelings, and they're not always the same. And the only way to have the ability to compare a feeling to a fact is to have established facts.

And facts are to the tune of, I believe this because of this. I've sat down and said, this is non-negotiable because of these experiences. That is, and that way, when you're living, dating, working, and you're hit with a feeling, a very normal, emotional, human feeling, you could say, I feel this, I'm not gonna ignore it, I'm not gonna be unhealthy,

but I'm gonna say, Is this a fact? It's like you ask someone to take their shoes up at the door before you let them in. There's a moment of exchange before you're like, come on in, right? So that's it. But you have to be able to say facts and feelings. And the only way to do that is to have established some semblance of facts or some semblance of truths that you believe.

And, you know, the ability to do that comes from lived experience and the ability to put those experiences to your point on trial. Totally. And let me ask you, when you were like, I don't know if dating now or when you were or whatever and you're kind of whatever personal life you want to share. Do you feel like you had any kind of anxiety when you were dating? And like if so or if not, like, what were boundaries that you felt were really important to set in dating just in general or with people that you work with? Because I think a lot of people that I talk to struggle with like, I don't know where to start or

how do I set a boundary or what does that even mean? And I think that has so much do with mindset as well. So I would love to hear if you have any personal experience on that. Yeah. I mean, so for me, 35, I've dating, live with my girlfriend here in Miami, spent a, you know, had had several long-term relationships. And then also from like 29 to 33, it was single. And I wrote a book called Singler's Your Superpower. So I definitely have experience on either end. And I'm very passionate about both, about being single, about the, you know, the magic

of being in a relationship. I mean, I think for me, like the things that, the thing that I always struggle with, which I think is the starting point for answering your question for everyone is knowing why you're dating in the first place. I think I always struggled with that or the opposite. Like, why are you single? Like, what is the purpose of this stage in your life? And not like pressure to be like, oh, here's the plan. Here's exactly what I'm trying to get out of it. But I just talk to so many people who struggle with standards, boundaries, dating the wrong people, putting up with these things because they haven't decided in the first place why they're dating. And you might

ask people, why you're dating. And you hear a lot of the like very primal answers, which aren't bad answers. You hear, I don't want to be alone. I want to start a family. It's just what you do. But I don't think those are either introspective enough or like self-centered enough. Like I do think as much as a relationship, of course, is about two people. When you're first starting to date, when you're putting yourself out there, it has to be about you. It has to be. It'd be weird if you were like, I'm going out there to offer someone my amazingness. It's like, it has to be about you, about you saying, I have worked hard in life to create happiness.

And I'm looking for someone to amplify it. It's an eye statement, a me statement. And I just find that a lot of people don't really have that. they have the lofty statements I want to start a family, which I think is great, of course. But if that is the outcome in mind or dating for marriage, I think is another problematic statement, I think we lose sight of everything that comes from it, which should be dating and standards and boundaries. So I think we really need to sit down and figure out why we're dating in the first place.

That comes from not a place of fear, for one, a fear of being alone or lack, right, hoping that someone will come along and give us purpose in life. So I wrote a whole book called Singers of Superpower about that idea of like, you know, what, what is the purpose of being single versus what is the purpose of being in a relationship? So that, that's kind of my answer there is like really starting at the beginning of these things, like going way back to the beginning to have a strong eye answer to that and then evolving from there. Which don't worry, we're going to link the book in the show notes so that everybody can get the book because I think it's super important whether you're single or not to be able to read it.

But no, I'm so with you. It's like, what's your intention? I'm very, like I was, I knew when I entered into the dating world, especially as somebody who had like, I'm painfully self-aware, like, to the point where even my friends were like, are, what the fuck you're going to do with all the self-awareness? And I was like, oh, that's a great question. So it's like, to the point where I'm like, I know the actions of the reactions. Like, I know exactly why I'm doing everything. And but to your point to the simple of like, yeah, why was I dating? And I would ask people, because I know a lot of folks are like, oh, I hate the question, why are you single? And I'm like, see, I think we can lean into it. I would ask people, not why are you single. I'm like, well, I How did we get to where we are right now? How are we both here? What are your lived experiences? What is your past? What did your past relationship?

Like, why did it end? And what did it teach you about yourself? Asking really fucking important questions and then leaving the dates, at least for me, like shifting the mindset in this kind of context where I would lead the date not focused anymore on like, how do they feel about me or did they like me or did da-da? Because I'm like, that's external shit. That is somebody else's that I'm trying to get their validation. And instead, I was like, how did I feel with them?

did I feel like our intentions align? And I love that you brought up the like dating for marriage thing because I think more often than not, it's like this fear of, I don't want to waste my time. And it's like when I hear that, I'm like, sounds like you don't trust yourself. Or I'm dating for marriage. It's like it sounds like you're very outcome oriented. But you're not allowing naturalness to happen versus, I don't know about you. But like when I started dating my now boyfriend, I was just kind of like, I remember

we like truthfully, we hooked up on the first date. And I left being like, I'm never going to see this guy again. I was like, oh, please. Like, are you kidding me? I'm like, I'm conditioned. I was like, oh, God. And now six months later, it's like we're talking about moving in together at the end of the year. That's a great example of this.

I talk a lot about that as like, oh, you know, you can't do this on the first date or this. You got to wait three to like the whole, all these ideas. It's like I, for every rule I've heard, I have multiple proof points to say that. It's just not true. So I love that for one. But yeah, I mean, the idea of like dating for an outcome, which I think is often on an emotional level synonymous with dating for validation. Obviously, we could sit here and be like, that's bad and everyone's going to agree

because we all know it's bad. But it's like practically why it's bad is because it gets you out of reality and it gets you into potential. And that's where like I see all the problems because when you're outcome oriented, all you're focused on is the potential of where it could go. And likely that's potential that's aligned with some kind of timeline. I'm getting older, having kids, marriage, pressure from your parents, so on and so forth. Which again, are fine things.

We're not bad people for feeling that. But I think about the majority of conversations I have with people where there's murkiness, there's mixed feelings, there's lack of communication. It comes from our focus on potential. And obviously you have to be focused on potential for relationships to say, oh, you know, this can go somewhere. But if we're not in reality, if we're not asking ourselves, like, in this moment, is this good enough for me? If we can't even define what good enough for me is in the moment, then we're just going to be blinded

been myopically focused on the future. And that's where we start overlooking all kinds of things. So I think it goes back to the beginning of why am I dating? Me, why me? Another question I like that has to be additive to an additional question we can talk about later, but is how do I want to feel? Like I think we need to be able to define that for ourselves because you'd be like, oh, he was funny.

I felt entertained. But is that your goal? Is your goal to be entertained by your partner? I want to be understood. Okay. Well, now we're getting somewhere, but is there more to it? So I think we need to take time. I'm a voracious journaler.

I really encourage people to journal, go to therapy, whatever format allows you to be honest with yourself, to sit down and say, here's how I want to feel and why, where that comes from, what would that offer you? And use that to guide your intention of dating in the first place. So you're not just swiping mindlessly, ending up in a relationship because you think it has legs,

legs to what? You know, I think it's a strong place of power to operate from. No, I love that. I couldn't agree more. Like my boyfriend will always say that. He's like, well, it's the objective. And it's like, because I'll get, you know, people that I will like write in or this or this. And he's like, okay, well, this could have seven different outcomes depending on like, what is it that you want?

And I think sometimes when I shift that question where I'll be like, okay, cool, how do you want to feel when you're with somebody? And you'll get kind of the stare of like, oh, I guess I didn't even really think about that. Like I didn't really think about how I want to feel. It's like, you want to feel seen, heard and understood. Okay, cool. So did that person ask you questions about yourself? Did they, did they at least try to get to know you? No, they didn't ask me anything.

It's like, cool, so you didn't feel very seen, did you? And then when you answered, were they just waiting for you to stop talking so that they could start talking? Cool, you didn't feel heard. So you might feel about them, oh, but they're so hot and oh my God, they've got a great job and all those cute little like bubbly shallow list. It's like, but at the core meat and potatoes, then we wonder why situationships happen. It's like because you're not really being authentic to your needs and being communicative about that. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen Tiguan.

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That is how we should evaluate our dates and interactions with other people. And we also, we need to find strength to really stay rooted in that because I think what you just described, I see so often, particularly with women, and that they'll be like, yeah, I want to see, be certain, you know, heard as seen and understood and felt in that way. But, you know, and then they'll check off all these like exterior things that are, and they're like, well, maybe I'm being too needy. maybe I'm asking for too much or maybe eventually I'll get those substantive things and we've kind of flip-flocked our pyramid hierarchy of needs and now we're going to the superficial thing. So we need to find a way to really stay rooted in that. And also it's like our past experiences are really powerful and that they give us those standards, but they could also be the contrary.

Like I see a lot of people say, this is what I deserve because I've been offered it in the past. But like we have to draw a strong line. Like what you've been offered isn't necessarily what you deserve. Like we misconstrue that all the time. That's just what someone's offering you. Just because it's been offered to you maybe once, twice, you know, that the bare minimum is not what you deserve. For instance, if we're going to the end of the spectrum, like we can't look to the past of, call it disappointing dating experiences where we've been offered less or something that's not rooted in reciprocity as proof of what we deserve in the future.

So we have to be able to delineate that and look at our experiences in both an affirming light of what you deserve and also a challenging light of this is the experience, but I actually deserve the opposite of it. And I think somewhere in the mix there is our ability to critically evaluate our relationships in the present. No, I've been perfectly said. And I think there's, it's funny because my, I would say my clientele is like very 50, 50 split, which like I thought I was going to have significantly more women. And I'm like, oh, no, no, there are a lot of men as well that are dealing with this stuff.

I just don't think that they get. That's why I'm so stoked that you are being so open about this because I think it, it gives a sheds a light that like yes there are men that think this like yes they do exist and just because you haven't met them yet but i i find it so often that like i'll deal with somebody that's like oh no these are my boundaries non-negotiables and i'm like okay talk to me what does a date look like for you and they're like well before i even go on the date i'm telling him i'm not sleeping with you and da-da-da and it's like you know what that's actually telling somebody it's like that's not setting a boundary what sets a boundary is at the end of the night when the guy walks you to

the car and says, do you want to come back to my place? You say, no, thanks. That's setting a boundary. I'm like, what you're actually telling this person by being so outward of like, well, I'm not going to get hurt. It sounds you don't trust yourself, that you have to, it sounds insecure, that you have to say it. What you're telling this guy is, that's what I'm used to. I'm used to a guy fucking me over after a first date. So now I'm going to tell you what doesn't work versus I don't want to talk about what I'm not going to do. I'd rather talk about what I'm going to do. Yeah, I love that. I mean, for yeah, for one, I mean, practically, you're basically, radiating this, this insecurity and you're, you're radiating, you know, you're carrying something

from a past experience, you're projecting these perceptions of, of what you're expecting. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a, you know, I always talk a lot about like a willingness to be hurt in the sense of like a willingness to put yourself in situations where your feelings might be rejected, your energy might be not reciprocated, you might have to affirm your boundary and say no. Like we have to be willing to put ourselves in those positions with no prior judgment. I think it's a really strong place to operate from. And of course, it's very tough because the more you put yourself out there, the more you're willing to love first or try first or be the first one to make a first move,

the more likely you are statistically to experience some form of rejection. But that is where you prove it. That's where you prove it to yourself, of course. That's where you prove that a standard isn't just something that you can talk and post a quote on Instagram about. It's where you could actually live it. And that's what makes it real. And of course it's tough. It's like it's much easier to text someone before and say, hey, I'm not sleeping with you than it is in the moment to be like, no, I'm not sleeping with you.

Of course, it's two different realities and one is awkward and one is, you know, maybe not so much. But it's like our willingness to put ourselves in situations where we stand up for ourselves and we're willing to, I did this whole, I wrote a whole chapter in my new book about a willingness to try first. There's this quote on Instagram. I see it all the time and it's so funny to me. It's something to the tune of whoever cares less wins. And I just hate it so much. I hate that. With every ounce of my soul. But it's like every time I see it, everyone's like, yeah, it's like, I don't, I'm not,

I don't, you know, I'm waiting for your move. I'm checking you out, man. People who like, you know, really like that kind of advice, that they see it as like an empowering thing. They're like, you make the first move. You know, like, I'll match your energy. And I just think that's such a passive way to, like, I can't think of a more explicit example of waiting for permission in life than whoever cares less wins mindset.

So I'm very anti that. I'm sure you are as well. If only everyone could see my facial expressions while you were saying that, it's like, oh, God. It's the same. I'm not a big fit. Personally speaking, I'm not a big fan of a lot of the stuff that's mainstream, especially, which I was going to ask you what your favorite quote is of yours, but we're going to get to

that later because I'm, I'm loving this too, because I'm, I don't love the black black and whites. I don't love these sweeping statements. And I'm with you. Like when people I have it all the time like, oh, match their energy. And I'm like, why would you water yourself down to do something? I'm with you in the sense of if somebody doesn't reach out to me. Like if it's not reciprocal, I'm like, if I'm in a tennis match and I'm throwing 30 balls at your fucking head for you to finally send one back, you're right. I should just walk away. But why would I then match your energy? Because then I'm now doing myself a disservice and I'm self-abandoning my wants and needs to now match where you are, which is baby, that's a low vibration for me.

Yeah. I'm not fucking with that. Of course, I'm not advocating for people to, you know, be, you know, to hurt themselves in the process of doing this and disrespect themselves. It's a matter of be willing to try first. See what's received. If you want to try again, so be it. But two, three times, you're done.

You're done. But that's you being active. That's you driving your wants and needs in life. It's not sitting back and waiting in the hope someone shows you interest or shows you direction or, you know, they finally state there. intent, you ask it, you speak it, you do all these things. Like I talk a lot about like, how can we break free of this aversion we have to being rejected? You could sit around all day and be like, oh, well, you deserve clarity and from clarity comes good. Yeah, of course. But it's like,

when I think about mindfulness, I kind of think about like brute force mindfulness. Like mindfulness isn't always like feelings and sensitive. It's about incentivizing yourself to find honesty, compassion, introspection. And the thing that I always come back to is like a little mantra is like In instances where there's a lack of communication, there's some kind of ambiguity, mixed signals were confused, and we don't want to speak up because we're afraid of being hurt or rejected. It's like, how do we incentivize ourselves to do it? I always come back to the thing of just like, when you speak up, you either get what you want or you get what you need.

Both are always going to serve you. Get what you want, get what you want. You have a conversation. They're on the same page. You have a conversation about it. You're good. Get what you need. You finally have a conversation.

You realize they're not into it. And you hit the road. you're out of there. But either way, it's get what you want, get what you need. So like, I literally say that to myself when I don't want to have a conversation with someone or it's awkward or potentially hurtful. I'm like, case, get what you want, get what you need, get what you want, give what you need. Because both serve you, one hurts your feelings, but either way, you're not in this ambiguous gray zone of life. And I find that to be just a, you know, catalyst for action and for speaking that for so many people, we just delay it.

We delay it for so long until a breaking point. And then we're just like emotional, blah. And we finally do it, which I wish people would just save themselves some of that anguish by in their pocket, get what I want, get what I need, get what I want, get what I need, not compulsively, but just in a healthy, honest way. Yeah, you're like, I'm not trying to create any neuroses here. No, I mean, it's like, that's kind of how I feel about like, I'm a big advocate of like, how many times you'll get people that are like, when should I ask somebody if they want to be in a relationship with me?

And I'm like, I'm sorry, why are you asking somebody permission for what it is that you want? If you want something, you go and say to somebody, hey, I like you, I only want to date you. I don't want to be with anybody else. And it's like, oh, well, no, then I'm going to be too much. It's like, oh, I'm sorry, too much to whom exactly, to the person that can't receive that who is going to now, you know, you start to feel down on yourself because of their inability to receive honesty, open and communication. Because I wish people understood being in a relationship is a lot more than just having

some fun dates and going around and having good sex. being in a relationship is having really tough fucking conversations that are uncomfortable that lead you to growth, but that at the end of it, you're like, wow, I feel closer to my partner or that that we said this. Yeah. And that's the biggest thing. It's like, the right partner wants you to be open and real and raw. And I know that's cliche and people are like, that's a pipe dream.

But seriously, think about it. Like, the right person wants to give you what you want because they want to see you happy. Because you being happy makes them happy. Like, that's the right person. And like, I have a conversation all the time where it's like, well, I don't want to voice my needs because I'll be too needy or this or that or the other. And it's like the right person doesn't want to have to guess how to love you. They want you to tell them what helps them the most.

And so they can give it to you. People a lot of time to talk, they're like, well, it's not romantic to like say what I want in bed, for instance. Or say like, this is my love language. Like it takes the romance out of it. I hear people saying, no offense to those people. I think that's immature. I don't think that's to your point. Love is, that's not what love.

Love, what's more romantic than you telling your partner what you. you want, what feels good to you, and them giving it to you. It's the most romantic thing in the world because it just is. I'm with it. Yeah, it just is. I think we just need to get over our aversion to, you know, hoping that someone will know exactly what we want and need and can read our minds. Like that's a misplaced assumption. Of course, yeah, I think with the right person, they're going to have an emotional connection to you where they have a closer connection to what you need and what you want. But no one truly knows what you need and what you want at the scale that you need it, how often you need it, what words that you like to hear, whatever it may be. So I really

am on board with that idea of just like being as truthful as possible because the right person will want that. And if they react to it and they judge you and they say that's too much, well, it hurts. But now you have the most critical proof point in your life that they're probably not the right person for you based on their reaction. So give what you want, give what you need. 100%. I love that. And it's like, yeah, it's kind of, I get that too, where I'll get people that. I'm like, why don't you express, you know, sharing? Well, he should just know. And I'm like, oh, okay. So now your partners are also fucking mind readers. I had no idea. No clue. But that's also, I mean, I'll say like, one of my least favorite sayings kind of on the planet is if he wanted to, he would. And I was like, I, it's so discrediting. It's also so it lacks so much compassion and empathy because it's like, okay, cool. So if I came to you and said, well, if you didn't want to be anxious, you wouldn't. you would call me a fucking asshole. You would tell me to go to hell in a handbasket and how insensitive am I. But yet, because somebody maybe doesn't have a bandwidth or doesn't whatever,

now all of a sudden we have to use these black and white statements to now generalize everybody and fit them all in a mold so that what? If he wanted to, he would. So that that means that I'm not good enough for somebody to want me. Psychologically, this doesn't make any sense. Yeah. We're very much on the same page here with our mindsets. Yeah, it's, we like labels.

We like, you know, victim and hero. We like that kind of stuff because it simplifies life, but life isn't that simple. And I think lack of empathy, not only does it not serve a partner, but I think lack of empathy is what leads us to overthink. Absolutely. Like, I talked a lot of women in particular. And they're like, well, you know, he hasn't texted me in a day or, you know, he didn't try to make a move on me.

Like, he, he must be either a fuckboy or he must not. like me or he must be playing with me so on and so forth and my reaction is well maybe I'm sure certainly it's always a possibility or possibility let's throw some ideas out here maybe this guy for instance hasn't texted you because he went on a date a year ago with a woman texted her right after hey it was amazing hanging out with you and she texted him back was like dude you freaking nerd like don't ever talk to me again like why well like no not at all and that stayed with him he's a man he's masculine but that hurt his feelings or maybe he didn't make a move on you for instance because He was trying to be overly respectful or maybe he was shamed in the past for something.

Who knows where these things come from? But empathy will say, okay, well, there's two possibilities. There's the hurtful, I'm the victim here one. Or there's the, let's just have a little bit of patience here. We're not going to overlook things that we say might be red flags, but we're going to balance empathy with observation and meet in the middle somewhere before we jump to these conclusions. Which, I mean, and even the red flag things, it's like, so many, oh, that's a red flag. I'm like, I'm sorry.

What's red flag about that? Everything's a red flag. It's like, and what that really kind of tells me is it's like, again, I think a lot of people aren't really understanding. Like, you are the main character of your own movie and everybody else is an extra. Vice versa. So it's like, I am just an extra. And like, like, as much as I would love to think more of myself, I know case that you have a full fucking robust life. And I am just another extra that's entering and exiting stage left at any point.

And it would be ridiculous of me to think that I would have so much control over somebody else's life that one little action is all of a sudden monumental. And I think that's where that compassion comes into understanding like everybody is fighting their own battles. And I remember my therapist literally changed everything for me when she said, I want you to date and just even interact with people as if you see the hurt, wounded child within them, because essentially that's how everybody's operating. And it changed everything. And instead of everybody, instead of every guy, and this kind of comes with mindset, too, instead of after every date being like, another fuck boy, what an asshole.

Fuck this guy. Everything being that. It's, I don't know, maybe that guy just wasn't picking up what you're putting down. Maybe that guy, like, let's say you and I were on a date right now. And we left and you were like, hey, it was so great to meet you. But like, no, thanks. I didn't feel a connection. I wouldn't go right to like, oh, it's because I'm not good enough and I'm not worthy.

Fuck that guy. It's like, I don't know. Maybe he isn't like, maybe he isn't like how much I curse. You know what I mean? It's like, that doesn't make there's anything wrong with me. It's such a refreshing point to hear. I went off on that on my podcast the other day because I spent a lot of time on social media for the sake of learning and observing, but it's like it's become internalized at this point.

For me, it's like a lot of people and a lot of women in particular, and I keep referencing women, not in a bad way, just because most of my audience is women, so most of the feedback I get is from women is a lot of women are so quick to say, oh, narcissists, narcissists, narcissists, like, maybe, maybe, and first of all, we got to reevalue with. that word means, but maybe, or maybe you didn't have the compatibility, or maybe, sure, he didn't handle the breakup that well. It doesn't mean he's a clinical narcissist. It doesn't mean it was toxic necessarily. It just wasn't reciprocated and we're moving on. This idea of wanting cut and dry victim labels, again, I would never try to devictimize someone and I would

never try to, you know, say your experience isn't valid. Of course it is. But I think a lot of times we do that to distract ourselves from holding ourselves accountable of what we put. put up with the person we were that allowed that to happen for one. But too, to also do the work that says, okay, here's what I've learned and I'm moving on. Here's the why behind that as opposed to, oh, narcissist, that was why. Narcissist, that was why. It's like, let's look at the actual behaviors. Let's get a little bit more specific.

And then again, focus on us instead of them. But we're very quick to toss around terms like that because it's easy to do that. Yeah, it's like, and it's like, I actually get, I used to get really offended because like my father is very textbook narcissist, like down to the T. And I, my ex was one. And so when people, oh, he's a narcissism, I would get almost annoyed where I'm like, you don't know what that really means. And you don't know how discrediting that is to people. And it's the same thing case with people being like, I've had the ghosting thing. I had to make a fucking, I worked with Yahoo recently on creating content for them of what is ghosting? Because I was like, I don't think you guys understand that the mindset you're in

is actually fucking you. Because no, ghosting isn't. you didn't have, just because you had one date with somebody and they didn't want to contact you ever, that doesn't mean that they ghosted you. That person just didn't want to see you again. And so I'll get girls that are like, this guy ghosted me eight times. And I'm like, wait, what are you talking about? Well, he just didn't answer for two days. I'm like, oh, my God, this is why mindset is so important in dating.

Because when you're entering in with all this faecta, you know, all of this murky water, you're not actually able to see clearly. Yeah, yeah, that's such a great point. Yeah, the ghost incoming. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like, I think a lot about rushing. I think a lot of what we're describing here comes from rushing. We have these preconceived timelines as pressure to reach certain points. And when they're not reached, we start tossing out labels.

We start saying, oh, it's because, you know, they're not serious. And it's like, you know, I think a lot about like the love that we want, in quotes, versus the love that we deserve. And I think the love that we deserve is slow. It certainly isn't dragged out. It's not complacent. But it's slow. Because, you know, you compare that to things like love bombing.

right or like coming on too strong it's like again back to the idea of the right person will want you to tell them what they want the right person also wants to know that you're right for them they're not going to come out on date two and say i love you they're not going to love you in an attempt to get you to love them because they don't even know you a healthy person is going to be a little skeptical in the same way that you should approach them with saying what are you doing for me they should have the same for you so that's why it's got to be a little slow it's got to be a little unrushed not because they're fucking with you not because they're not serious but because they should have the same mentality that you have, which is, let's see if actions and words align, let's see how the vibe is past

the first date or second day. I had written chapters and episodes on the idea that, you know, the beginning stages of a relationship aren't real. Yeah. Because I think you need conflict and you need drama to really understand someone. I'm not saying like, you know, you're going to concoct up some drama, but that's the only way to get the true essence of someone. And you're not going to get that on date one or day two. That's why you need time and you can't rush it. And the right person will be on the same page because they want to make sure you're right for them in the same way you want to make sure you're right for them. So I think the idea of time is a is a, you know, slippery one certainly. Yeah. I had a video where I talked about like going slow, like what does it

mean to go slow in a relationship? And I was like, going slow isn't an excuse for bad behavior. It doesn't mean that you can just like see each other once every month and it's a casual thing. It's like, no, no, no, that's just bullshit. That's somebody fucking with you. Going slow. I'm like, my boyfriend and I are still going slow in the sense where we're not trying to rush and expedite stages of a relationship. Why would we start talking about marriage? It's only been six months. Where are we going? Neither one of us are in any rush to get there. And I remember I had one girl and she was like, that's bullshit. A man will move mountains for you. And I was like, but what does that have anything to do with the expedition of time? And it's because again, it's like, hate to break it to all my

anxious that are listening. Anxious are also avoiding because they are avoiding the abandonment wound. They are avoiding avoiding being alone and being. So it's, okay, let's just get to it so that I cannot feel abandoned when it's like, on the contrary, that's how you blink your eyes and three years later go, how the fuck did I get into this? Because you didn't see the force for the trees. You were standing so close to the stump that you wanted it to create this entire vision. And when you finally went macro instead of so micro on looking at stupid behavior like, does he text me 10 times a day versus is this guy intentional showing up asking me questions and trying to get to know me further, that's where that narrative starts to come into play. And it's like if we can

start to really start to chip away. And that's why I'm a big proponent of like, you don't need to text every day when you're dating. I think that is completely absurd. And I think it fucks with your mind. Then it's like if we can start to show ourselves a little bit of grace and compassion of this guy's not necessarily pulling the wool over your eyes just because he didn't text you for two days. Maybe he has a fucking life. And you haven't earned a place in it yet. Yeah. I love that. I think, you know, the thing that I come back to is, you know, we're talking about like knowing how you want to feel. I think that like, and I love your thoughts on this too, because like here's where we come into the balance like needing to hold ourselves accountable on both ends.

It's like, you know, this idea of like saying, do I feel in love? I think it can be a misleading question to ask yourself because there's going to be times where you don't feel in love, of course. And if that's your lithmus test for the health relationship, you're going to start massively questioning yourself. So how do we find a balance there? So I always talk about, you know, love, of course is a feeling. Of course it is.

But more than a feeling, it's a series of choices. It's a series of behaviors that that are exhibited by this person that we need to look to. you know, someone who loves you is going to do the difficult things. You're going to have the difficult conversations. They're going to, you know, do all these things. And those should make you feel a certain way. But if we're always looking through the lens of in this moment, do I feel in love? I think we're setting ourselves up for some overthinking, for one, a lot of comparison for two. I mean, if we're comparing what in love looks like to the internet, we'll never have love that's good enough for us. Never. There'll always be a version of it that's different. So yeah, I mean,

this idea of balancing love as a feeling and love as a choice, somewhere in there. No, I like that. Because I sometimes don't think about even my boyfriend. Like, we say I love you. And it's like, so there are moments where I'm like, I don't love you right now. You know, it's like I'm like, I'm not into it. And it's like, it had nothing to do with anything besides, I don't know, maybe he just, that day we weren't feeling as connected.

Maybe he woke up and he didn't get a lot of sleep. So he was been a little shorter with me. And it's like, that doesn't mean I still don't. I'm not in love with him. And I would never make a heart, a rash decision on that. It's like, then like you said, though, you. you start to look at it's like, oh, well, the reason I love this person isn't because they buy me stuff or because they are taking me out on dates. Or it's like, I love them because they're supportive of me

when I'm in a low moment, they step up for me. Or the choices that they make make me feel supported and loved by them that they put me as a priority. And I think being able to differentiate between the two is going to be so important. And I'm, I just think this episode has so much incredible feedback for people, especially hearing it from a male who is, especially somebody who is like more evolved, has done a lot of work on themselves and has a different mindset. I'm just so excited for the audience to hear you also have your thoughts on this because I think it could help people maybe snap out of it. They hear me say it, but hearing somebody like you say it is also equal as impactful because, hey, I didn't make all this up. Yeah, but I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, again,

And like I, you know, I'm just on the same levels, a lot of people are learning these different things, the hard way or the easy way or, you know, through close observation or close experience, whatever may be. But I think, you know, we all have the capacity to be real with ourselves, to be honest with ourselves. And I think that's the most difficult thing. Like in tune with what we're talking about or like putting yourself in situations where you're potentially hurt or rejected. It's the same with yourself. Like we run from a lot of the things that we don't want to look at. Like I used to really laugh at the idea of, you know, we're all victims of victims. I was like, what a silly thing to say?

Like, I'm a grown-ass man. Like, what does that mean? Like, sorry, when I was eight, like, I felt lonely and I've carried that with me my whole life. For example, it's like, I think we're remiss to not find compassion in our ability to go back as far as we can to find a source of some of these things that we feel. And then in the present, to not get down on ourselves and feel like we're broken for having anxious thoughts or people like, you know, I talk to guys.

eyes and now on the flip side. I have a lot of tough talk with guys and the guys like, I just can't settle down, man. I don't know if I can. I'm like, that's such a bullshit thing. You're just like, you're, you haven't like what a, what a, you know, you want to talk about like not being in the driver's seat of your life. Like what a throw answer. I don't know, man. I just don't think I'm the guy for that. It's like, what the heck does that mean? Like you, you have zero introspection here for that. And certainly there are maybe some reasons for that clinical or something going on. Sure. A lack of introspection is going to lead to a lot of a lifetime of confusion.

But we're all fully capable of doing these things, whether it's in a form of journaling, therapy, any form of mindfulness that gets you in a space of being vulnerable, even if it might be hurtful or awkward or frustrating or whatever, you know, it gives you, I think is always going to be immensely valuable. I fucking love that. I love that. Okay. So I want to end on a question that I've been saving to ask that I had asked you in the

beginning and we didn't get to. What is your favorite quote and why? What is your favorite quote that you have written on a posted or on something and a cup? because I know you have like you see it everywhere. What resonates? I don't know. I honestly, the one that I like the most because it comes from my own experience that I referenced earlier,

I wrote one that just said I've changed so much over the past couple of years that I might have to reintroduce myself to people. I know that's not a particular banger, but I like it because it speaks to the power of mindfulness, which is the ability to literally change your essence, your entire inner life, as many times as you need in life. Like I think a lot of times we're afraid to evolve. In particular, we're afraid to start over.

Like, that's a big topic that I'm really passionate about, this idea of starting over. I think we've misinterpreted it very much so in that we think that starting over means you failed so bad that you need to start over at zero, that you've messed up so bad that starting over means you're getting further from what you deserve. And I think it's the opposite. I think starting over means intrinsically, by definition, you're getting closer to what you deserve because you're no longer accepting this thing that you've decided. It is not what you deserve and you're moving away from it. You're moving closer to what you deserve. And to the beginning of our conversation, anytime you start over, it's cliche, but you're never starting from scratch.

You're always starting from experience. And through the way that I look at my influence, you can prove it to yourself. I've always tried to like gamify certain things that are tough for me to do, like being rejected or having conversations or these things. And I've done a couple episodes, an idea of giving yourself points. Like if you're ever rejected, you give yourself a point and you get enough, you cashed in for confidence. like it's a teddy bear at a state fair or something like that.

Like confidence comes from disappointment and rejection and these things and awkwardness. Same with other areas of like disappointment and so on and so forth. So we could prove to ourselves that we're always bringing things with us. So that's why I'm very passionate about the idea of evolving and changing. And it comes from your mindset. It comes from what you're willing to accept. It comes from your challenging your aversion to be honest with yourself and with other people. And that's all mindfulness is.

And I think we're all fully capable of doing it and applying it in every area of life, dating, career, you know, health, whatever it may be. It's a gift. 100%. I mean, I was talking to my friend this morning. I was like, if you had seen me five years ago, you wouldn't recognize me. I was like I don't even sometimes when I see somewhat like my journal. I found my old journal from my ex and I broke up in 2018 when I was like a shell of a human.

And it was hard for me to read it. But I think what some people don't realize is like, case, you and I both started at nothing. We both started over. We had careers. We had lives. And then we started this. And so people can come and say, oh, but look at the success you've had. It's like, and I started with zero followers.

I started with literally an idea, rock bottom going, all right, here we go. And it's like, and to your point, I didn't start with nothing. I came with all of this experience that has thus bred into an entirely new story. And I wish that if people, anybody that's out there listening right now, if you are at a point where like, you're fucking rock bottom, you've just lost everything. You are, you are feeling discouraged. you are feeling all that now more than ever is where you need to start to feel the confidence within yourself that you can make it through because I promise you when you get squeezed to the

point to no return that is where you bounce right back up and you can start an entirely new chapter from I always said like from the Phoenix Rising it's like from those ashes comes an even stronger more beautiful version of who you are because to your point case you don't start from zero you start with experience and that's invaluable so I'm just so grateful thank you so much. Thank you so much for being undue the work. It was so awesome to have you. Where can people find you? Of course. Well, thank you for having me. And any chance to jam on these topics is one that I love to do. So thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's case.com on Instagram, New Mindset, Who Does, podcast and New Mindset Who Does.com for any books or journals. That's, again, journaling,

I think it's something that's so powerful, especially if you're like a little averse of therapy or you haven't found the right therapist. Journal. See what it brings your life. It'll definitely bring you something. Awesome. And now I will link everything in the show. So don't worry to anybody. If you can't find it, you can click and follow. But Case, thank you again so much. And it was a pleasure to have you.