The Sabrina Zohar Show - 23: Attachment styles with therapist Flynn Skidmore

Episode Date: June 23, 2023

Sabrina and Therapist Flynn Skidmore provide valuable insights and practical strategies for listeners seeking to deepen their understanding of attachment styles and their impact on relationships. Through engaging discussions and real-life examples, they explore the complexities of attachment patterns and guide listeners towards developing healthier, more secure connections. The Sabrina Zohar Show offers a safe and supportive space for individuals to explore their own attachment styles, gain self-awareness, and discover practical tools for growth. With warmth and compassion, Sabrina and Flynn empower listeners to navigate their nervous system responses, regulate emotions, and create more fulfilling relationships by understanding their attachment style.  Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, I am fucking amped for this episode. We have this week my favorite therapist, Flynn Skidmore. He is amazing and we are talking about anxious attachment, all things attachment style actually and really getting more into the nitty gritty of like, what does it actually mean to have anxious attachment style? How does your nervous system play into it?

And just so many other things, I just can't wait. Let's get right on into the episode, guys. I think you're going to love it. Awesome, Flynn. I'm so excited. Welcome to Do the Work podcast. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.

Of course. And so for anybody who doesn't know who Flynn is, I've actually been following you for a long time. You are one of my favorite therapists because I really resonated with the way that you speak. And funnily enough, Flynn and I just pivoted this entire conversation because we're going to talk about things like anxious, avoidant, secure, fearful, dismissive, all those fun things

because it resonates more with the both of us. But Flynn, I'd love you to introduce yourself to the community and share a little bit about your background and what you practices and things that you love to work with and clients. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that the things that I say resonate with you. Thank you. Same for you. I really, really love your content and your vibe and the way that you communicate is really inspiring to me. Yeah, I'm a therapist. I'm a therapist. So I think when people hear therapists, like what a therapist conventionally is, is getting a person to stable. I'm honestly a lot more interested in taking a person from stable to taking them to a life of their wildest dreams. So what I'm really

interested in is creating spaces for people to allow their vision of their ideal selves to be as big as they want it to be and to engage in the process of taking that vision. And, turning it into reality in every area of life. That's the thing that I'm really interested in. I like to think of it as like helping people go from thinking beings, like thinking, anxious, ruminating beings to creative beings where a person understands that in every single moment, they can create the experience that they want and that a lifetime of more moments than not of creating the experience you want ends up becoming an extraordinary life. So that that's the thing that I really like helping people do.

That's awesome. And I love that you even touched upon, like, I think so often we think of therapy as being very cerebral, of being very, like, if I can intellectualize it, then I can understand it versus it being like, well, no, I think that's more comprehensive. It's like it's feeling the experiences. It's living the experiences.

And it's getting necessary, like a little bit out of here and maybe more into the rest of it. How long have you been practicing for? I think I started my practice in, 2008. So I've been a therapist for five years. But I would say that I've been in this space doing this kind of thing. It's since my early 20s, probably since 21 or 22. It's been the thing. What I've been obsessed with since I was 18 was change and what changes and how organisms and systems change. I understood at 18 that my body and the way that I move was not just about

my body and the way that I moved, but it was the expression and the reflection of my personality and my experiences and my consciousness and my awareness. And I became really interested in understanding how to access like world class level movement by accessing world class level consciousness with the understanding that that thing would express itself through my body. So obsessed with that and how people change and have been doing this now for like 15 years, I guess. That's awesome. I think for, yeah, I mean, I know there is nothing better than when you talk to somebody

like a client or anybody and then you see the change over time. You see the thought processes change. You see their actions, their behavior. You get those emails of like, holy shit, I don't feel anxious today. It's like, oh, what a win. It's like the most rewarding feeling. And let me ask you, I know that we're going to talk about so much fun shit today, but is there like a standout that changed you?

Is there something that you started to implement for yourself that you saw the most profound change besides obviously like therapy and just, you know, talking? Great question. So the perspective that I think that there's like kind of a moment between struggling, depressed, frustrated, but knowing that great things are available to me. And Flynn, who's actually stepping into a level of excellence that matches how I perceive myself. And one of the most important things in between those spaces was stepping away from thinking that there was a formula for how things are supposed to be done and spending

my energy trying to find that formula and instead seeing that I have a unique energetic pattern and that what my responsibility is is paying attention to what energizes me and paying attention to what depletes me and investing more energy into what energizes me and divesting my attention and energy from what depletes me, either divesting it or transforming it. So life, came all about committing to optimizing and maximizing my energy. And that's like, of course, that's action and food and sleep, but that's also like things I think, words I say, everything is either energizing me or depleting me. And so the commitment to stepping away from hoping that there's such a thing as a right

or a wrong or a good or a bad or some prescription out there for who I'm supposed to be and into just a commitment to optimizing my energy is the thing that changed everything. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. I think for a while, I was wildly unaware of like how I came off to people. Like when I say I was the poster child for anxiety, like textbook, it was daddy issues, feeling abandoned, seeking external validation through men, using my body and sex in order to try to get that, but always feeling empty, even if I did have somebody. And it wasn't until I started to really shift like, well, what is it?

it that I actually want? What is it that actually makes me feel fulfilled? So fitness, okay, moving my body, you know, then ingesting different content. And then it turned into having different thought processes. And it evolved to a point where like I then really started to trust myself because I became very clear on what felt like it resonated with me, which is even the same with like content creation of like, I can't stand all the black and white thinking of like, if this happens, then it means this. And it's like, well, we're new on creatures. We're humans. I know. That's what I was saying. I can't take like, oh, if someone is having this experience, what should they do? Or what are some tips to navigate? I can't do that because in my mind,

that doesn't exist. Like that thing of, oh, here's what you're supposed to do. The only way to answer those questions is to actually dive into that person's experience and learn about what they like and what they don't like and what they want and what's energizing them and what's depleting them. I think the fastest way to a personal formula is releasing the hope that there exists some general formula or prescription for how all this is supposed to be done or who we're supposed to become. I love like releasing any kind of attachment or expectation or that's why honestly even like whenever I'm working with anybody the minute though, if I get a why on why is somebody doing this, I'm instantly like, oh, you lost me. I don't want to figure out why other people are behaving

in the way that they're behaving because like you said, it's like, we can, we need a conversation with these people. We need to talk to them about what's going on and where is this stemming from and what's coming up for you and what's happening for you and things like that. And I think so often, especially with like the anxious community and I love my folks, don't get me wrong, but it's like we are so hyper focused on what other people are thinking that we don't really stop to think, what is it that I want? Because that like feel selfish or like you should, like my client this morning was telling me. I loved her and she was like, I feel, she's like, is it narcissistic of me to put up a boundary and think of myself?

And I was like, man, that's the perception of thinking about myself feels selfish. And it's always been so wild to me. But let me ask you, did you ever feel like, where did you fall on the spectrum? Did you feel like, did you have anxiety growing up or were you more avoidant or secure? Like, how did you feel like you fell? All of it. All of it. And my experience that, like, when I, when I am with people and doing a really deep,

an intimate dive into their inner worlds. Like, I find that if anxiety is there, then also all of it is there. There's also avoidance and there's, it's all there. So in my experience, looking back, at the time, I had no idea how to describe what I was experiencing or what it was. But looking back on it, I can see that I was all over the place too, like experiencing anxiety all the time and all different types of context, avoiding and ghosting. And I still have problems.

I still struggle with all of those things. It's just gotten less bad over time. But yeah, all over the place. In different relationships, one relationship I'd be anxious, another relationship I would be avoidant. I thought that avoidant meant secure. And then I would sort of shame the person who was anxious for not being secure. But actually, I was being avoiding and like gaslighting them.

So all over the place. And you know what? Thank you for being honest and real about that answer and not being like, I'm, I've moved into secure and I'm, you know, I know myself. It's like, I think that's where people resonate with probably both of us. It's like, no, we're human. And I try to explain to people like, you are not a fixed, like first, there's a couple of things here to clarify. You're not a fixed attachment style. You're not just, you're anxious. Okay, that's it. You're anxious. So all you do is, because I'll get people and they're like, I felt avoidant though. Does that mean I am in two? it's like, why are we trying to self-diagnose so heavily?

And I'm like, it's almost as if you feel like you belong. You know, if you're like, no, I'm anxious. It's like, you belong. Yes. Yes. Then you have an identity. Yes. Yes. Versus more of like what's coming up for me. Where did I learn this from? Where is the stemming from?

And I'm like, my goal is to get away from all the insecure and just at least get to a point of security, which to me, what that meant was that I could be okay alone, but I could also be okay with other people and that my life wasn't. You know, I wasn't like waiting for another shoe to drop or constantly feeling like, you know, to those, I'm not kidding when I say I used to be so anxious, I would leave my phone by me and I would constantly leave the light on. So I could see when I'd get the text. Like it was to a point where another person validating me made my, my day for about 10 minutes.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like in that space and I know that space. Like I can think about one real, two relationships that I've been in that have been like that. where you need this person's text message like you need oxygen. It's actually, actually, like I can think about examples that I've had where like I couldn't get out of bed because my only energy source was this person's text and not just a text. I needed like an enthusiastic, fun, loving text that let me know that the rest of my life

was going to be okay because I knew I didn't like this relationship, but I was terrified to leave it like yes it's the worst being in that place and i think most of the questions i get revolver on texting and dating that would probably be the like i don't know what i'm doing did it done i'm like it's and for me i don't know what school with your and like i'm a big proponent of not texting a lot in the early stages of dating because i'm like i don't want that to happen i don't want to get to the point where you know because we've all had it we're like especially when you're anxious you're texting non-fucking stop it's like 24 seven and you're so excited and you get all and then you create this version of them and then there's no tone so you start to

think oh my god but then like how cute is it going to be when we meet and we're going to go to this place and then our life and then you look on their instagram and you're like they went to grease i want to go to grease and this whole entire thing happens and then you go on a date maybe you never see that person again because whoopty do they don't know you anything it's not a commitment and like literally you feel like your entire fucking world has crumbled because you didn't get your good morning text. And so for me, I'm always like, I suggest not engaging in texting when you're dealing with that. But I'd love to know, what are some tips or tricks or anything to handle this kind of anxiety that you had felt? Because obviously you went through it personally, that you implemented

that helped you move through it so that you didn't feel like you needed somebody's fucking message to make your week. Yes. Well, I think unfortunately and unfortunately, I think it is a, it's a bigger thing than a tip. than tips and tricks. I really, really, like, so I would describe myself as securely attached predominantly now. Even then there are, of course, remnants of mostly avoidant attachment that shows up, not in my relationship, but actually in other areas of my life, like friendships, like sometimes I drop the ball with business stuff too with, with like getting back to people and, like,

But predominantly I would describe myself as securely attached. So what got me from all over the place attached, like some relationships anxious, some relationships, all, some relationships avoidant to secure is I would now say, I can go to bed tonight and I can say to myself, I am doing every single thing possible to bring my dream life into reality. I am doing every single thing. I know that I am in the flow of action of actualizing and becoming exactly who I want to be. And I know I will spend the rest of my life doing that and continue to get better and better and better at it.

And that thing that people do of like coming up with the story, I'm like, oh my God, like how cute would our babies be and they haven't met? And like, I want to go to Greece too. And then they want a good morning story. Like what's happening for that person is that they are starting to create a version of safety that's based on a story. And then their mind and their body, their nervous systems, start to believe that in order to access nourishment, they need that story to come true.

And so it creates an attachment to this story. like the story is the source of safety and the source of nourishment. And then when you start to perceive that, oh, shit, actually this story may not come to fruition, well, then like you don't have safety anymore. So this becomes your only source of safety. And just like truly your body needs it like you need oxygen and you grasp at it and you need that thing to be true. That's the thing that is anxious attachment.

I found that the only thing truly to transcend that, is to become a person who can say every single night when you go to bed, yes, I am doing everything possible to fully commit to the exact life that I want to live and becoming exactly who I want to be. You articulated that so well. You put that into such a, even just my head. I was like, nobody's going to see this. I was nodding the whole time.

Yeah, it's so true. It's like that, that perception of safety. And then that's where it's like, you fall for the idea of a person. And then even at the time you meet them and you're like, you're trying to get back to that. Or like, you hang out with them. You're like, man, I thought they were going to be cooler. Like, this person's not as great.

And what I find for me, what at least personally made me kind of go there, it was such a detachment from myself. It was, I was so detached from my wants and needs. They weren't connecting. The head and the heart had no conversation whatsoever together. And so when I would attach to the idea of these people and I would say like, oh my God, if I don't get it from them, it's the end of the world, even when they would show me that this was not a partner that I'd want, it was still very much like, no, I need to

to make it work. I have to because my validation is going to come from this person. And it was, it was a, the only way I can describe it. It's like, it was a hell that I don't wish any, I don't wish upon my worst enemy. The anxiety that I felt like in my body and now that I've become so in tune, like even yesterday I was able to, like I was telling my therapist what I did. And she was like, you literally did what you're supposed to do. She's like, I don't know why I'm here actually. Because I like, I had a really anxious thought and I started to spiral and then I started to connect with my body and see where I felt it and how it was feeling. And then I started to figure out, kind of same thing of like, okay, well, how can I get to the life I want? What are the actionable

steps I can take that are within my control? I can't control algorithms, thanks TikTok. We can't control other people. I can't control if somebody's going to do something. But what I can control is the content I put out there or the things, the messaging that I'm saying and doing something within my power to create this future in the life that I wanted. And I was finally able to go to bed saying you fucking did it, kid. You did it. You pushed through those boundaries. And I showed that little me like, hey, don't worry about it.

We don't have to wait. Because for me all my life, my dad controlled finances. And it was like we no longer have to feel like the only safety comes from when he gives. The safety can now come from when I give. Yes, exactly. Yeah. I'm so glad that you brought up that part of it. I think you referred to it as like your inner child or the little you that's having that experience.

It is such an assessment. component of it to be aware of the parts of you or what in you is being activated or triggered when anxiety is happening in a relationship. Because in the internal family systems model, which I, have you ever heard of that? I love it. I love it so much. I think it's just fantastic. It's also important to know that the guy Dick Schwartz, who like he branded it really well because he's a smart business person, but he didn't invent it. Like people who don't even know about internal family systems, practice internal family systems because it's just this very beautiful, intuitive way of understanding who we are

and how we operate. But your higher self or the capital S self, which is the version of you who has infinite, abundant, unconditional access to expansiveness and well-being, like in a state of love, in a state of groundedness, no matter the circumstances, no matter. It's the part of you that's not human, the part of you that's infinite. And then you have all of these parts of you who are human, who are invested in your finite human experience, who are afraid of pain, who are afraid of rejection, who are afraid of loss. These parts of you have been conditioned to believe that your access to well-being, your access

to love, safety, and belonging is conditional. Because in part, as a human, it is conditional. Like, you could die. you could be rejected, et cetera. So the task is, like, the task is learning to relate to your wounded parts from the perspective of your capital S self. It's not to like bypass them. It's not to try and intellectualize through them or pass them.

It's to bring those parts of you who are afraid and anxious into your experience and have them experience a sense of belonging to your internal tribe. When your parts who are thinking that love safety and belonging comes from this person texting you, when those parts start to understand that they're thinking, what they hope or what they think is that when you get that text, then you'll get relief and then you'll get groundedness and then you'll get peace. So what they want are certain feelings and what they are doing is attach. their access to getting those feelings to this one thing happening, which is this person texting you.

And like, of course, it would feel amazing if this person sent you the best good morning text ever. That's true. And what we want to do is to help our parts have an experience of relief, relaxation, and groundedness because they belong to us. So they're getting the thing from us that they're hoping to get from this thing externally. and when that happens, then we don't need the good morning text as much because we already have the thing that we want as a result, which then increases the likelihood that we are a person who invites and attracts a really fun good morning.

So well said. It's like I'm a big proponent of like, you want all these things in a partner. It's like you also have to embody those things as a partner because if I'm wildly insecure and super anxious and questioning everything on the planet, I'm not going to have someone super secure that's going to be giving all that because it's never enough. And it's like. especially the texting thing, such a point of contention for me. And it's always, I get the thing of, it takes two seconds to send a text.

And it's like, but what you're missing is the point of what is, what do you really need that text for? And what is that trying to say to you. And let's also call it what it is. It's never just one fucking text. It's never just one text because one text turns into, but you only sent me one and why couldn't? It's like you are an endless pit of needs that nothing externally is going to be able to fulfill. Yes.

And I learned that because I could literally, I could sit here right now and somebody could text me in that moment. And it's like, and sure enough, what happens? It could be the most beautiful, well-written thing. But you'll be like, they put two periods. I knew he didn't like me. It's not enough. It's not enough because anxious brain is going in an overdrive to be like, no, you need to find a problem here. A hundred percent.

The anxious brain could have every single man in the, if what you want to date is a man, every single man in the world text you the most enthusiastic text possible, and it wouldn't be enough. There's no satisfying that level of anxiety when it's about that external need. It just doesn't happen. Did you ever watch that show Big Mouth? No. Oh my God. It's so good. You have to watch it. It seems funny. It seems hilarious. It's hilarious. And so the whole thing is it's these kids that are coming of age. And so in there, there's the Depression Kitty and it's like all the external, But then there's the anxiety mosquito. And literally all the anxiety, all the anxiety mosquito does is like when the girl is just walking,

she just buzzes around her head. She's like, but what if he does this? And what if he does this? And oh, my God, but I'm freaking out. And it's like, that's how I envision it. That's how I see anxious brain. It's the Karen that always wants to find an issue and discredit. And that's where like, I had to become so fucking self-aware of where those thoughts were coming from.

Like, it's my self-awareness is to the point where I'm like, I wonder. if this is a good or bad thing. But I can tell you when I get triggered, I'm like, I know exactly how it feels in my body. I know exactly where it came from. I know exactly which version of little me is needing me. And that is always where I'll go in. And I do that where I like, my step process is I identify what the trigger was. I identify how it felt in my body.

And then I identify what the narrative was. And that allows me to chip away. And I've gotten quicker and quicker and quicker at it to where I can then identify. Is there an actual threat? Like, is this something that is bothering me out of it's bothering me? there's something real or is the narrative that's creating an issue. And I think a lot of people bypass mostly what I see, that middle step. They bypass the how does it feel? What's the narrative? And they just go right into like, well, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. And those core beliefs

rearing their ugly head. The conclusions. Yeah. That's it. And to me, I found when you're going to stick on that and stay in rumination and stick on that side, it's like you might as well be trying to fucking swim a marathon and molasses. Like you're not getting anywhere. It feels like you're just being sucked down further. And I just wish so many people understood like you have the power over your mind. Your mind doesn't have the power over you. And I know it might sound easy, but both of us are saying here. And it's like, look, even just you being like, yeah, when I go to bed, these are my thoughts. It's like, yes, everybody can have those thoughts if we start to look at those parts about us that we've been ignoring. Yes. Yeah, that's the thing that's essential is to me, that thing of actually.

actualizing a dream life doesn't exist without expanding the limitations of your capacity to unconditionally love. All things. Everything within yourself, everything around you, which of course doesn't mean that you have to unconditionally include things and invest your energy into it. But what it's about is practicing remaining in a state of love, curiosity, awe, wonder in response to the things that you've been conditioned to shame and be afraid of and all that. So it's this high level of drive to create an extraordinary life, while also this high level of drive to expand one's capacity to unconditionally love. Like both things happening at the same time, to me seem to be the thing that helps a person transcend something

like anxious attachment in relationships. I love that. And what do you, did you have any like suggestions on, you know, I think a lot of people, there's a lot of shame. Like how do you push through the shame that's associated?

You know, why am I like this? Why do I act like this? There's almost like an anger with that. And for me, I'm like, I try to show compassion. That's usually my way.

But I don't know if there was anything that comes to mind for you and shame is really something that comes a lot. The thing is to form a relationship between the unconditionally infinitely loving self and the anxious part. And now that might not be immediately available because there might be other parts intervening who think that the best thing to keep you safe is to shame these other parts of you who are anxious, right?

All of these, any time a person is experiencing not well-being, fear, anxiety, shame, discuss, judgment, we can safely assume that a part has been activated. And anytime a part has been activated, it's an opportunity to become curious about how that part sees the world. One of the important things to do is to operate with the assumption that all of your parts are actually doing the thing that they sincerely believe they need to be doing in order to safely navigate the environment. So all of your anxious parts believe that anxiety is the exact right energy with which you need to successfully navigate the environment. And what happens with

most people's lives is when they haven't formed that relationship between the capital self and the part, they become the part. They become enmeshed with the part. They see the world through the eyes of that part. And if that part believes that anxiety is, the correct energy with which they need to successfully navigate the world, that part will ensure that anxiety exists. So sleeping patterns, what that person eats, who they invest their energy, that part will invest energy into a person where they know that they'll be anxious because this person's a shitty communicator or an asshole or whatever, right? And I'm not actually being judgmental, but you know what I mean? Because that part really believes that anxiety is

the thing, right? So operating with the assumption that this part is doing the absolute best that it possibly can, given how it sees the environment, is something that can often open up doorways to be able to meet that part with compassion and curiosity and to be able to understand how this part sees the world. So what's it experiencing? What does the world look like to this part? And what does it want to experience? Because that's the other thing is, after doing this work for probably tens of thousands of hours with people, I have never met an anxious part or a shameful part who wants to be anxious or shameful. They want to be grounded and peaceful and relaxed and loving. They just, they have been conditioned to believe these parts. They've been conditioned to

believe that anxiety or shame is the best way to access love and groundedness. So it just so happens that they're using an ineffective approach in order to produce the results that they want. So that framework right there seems to help a lot of people like unlock some access to being able to be compassionate and kind and curious towards these parts. The other thing to keep in mind is like, if you want to meet your anxiety with compassion and curiosity, well, the shame part of you may not be ready for that yet because the shame part believes that that would be validating it and it'll make it worse and then you'll get more anxiety. So then the opportunity is to meet the shame part with compassion and curiosity and learn about

the shame parts experience. Who is that person? What do they look like? How old are they? When did they learn these rules about the world? What's their energy like? What's their body language like? Just learning about them at some point, the shame part will be like, whoa, you just offered me warmth and curiosity and love. I can relax a little bit now. I actually now trust that you applying warmth and curiosity and love to the anxious part is going to work to help that part too. So I'm going to chill out and step to the side and let you access that anxious part. And that's what the exploration of the subconscious is, is constantly doing that, constantly

finding the ways in which we are conditioned to not access groundedness and to meet those parts of ourselves with love, warmth, and curiosity. That's all it is. That plus taking bold action. And let me ask you, is that really where the like anxious avoidant trap kind of starts to ensue where it's like one person, it feels like safety, where it's like, oh, okay, I'm super anxious. So that is somebody that I know will accept my anxiety, whereas like somebody maybe secure

might not, might be like, yeah, that's not something I'm willing to fuck with. Because we see this all the time. It's like anxious and avoidant, anxious and avoidant. And I would love to. to tap into that. And then I also do want to ask you a bit more on like dismissive or fearful because I think that's something that I'm still relatively new to. But I think there's so many like, because we speak so much about anxious because it's the obvious.

It's the outwards. You know, oh, well, they're expressing and they're showing. And it's very much of this like, that's the better one. And then avoidance, oh, they don't feel anything and they're so cold and they're so calloused and they just move on and they shut down. And it's like there's obviously a reason that two of them consistently keep fucking with each other. So I'd love you. You know, and it's like, there's something going on here.

And I know there's the basics of like somebody, you know, for me, I'd go for avoiding guys because it was like, oh, it was hot that they weren't so emotional and that they weren't just out expressive. And it was fueling my anxiety and letting my anxiety know, keep going. You're doing a great job, sweetie. But I would love to know if we can even go a little further on that of like, really that dynamic and more about the avoidant because I don't think that they get a good rep. I just don't.

In a strange way, they get a bad rep. And they're also the more celebrated one. Like culturally, I think the icons that were given, like most people would prefer to have access to avoidance than have access to anxiousness. Yeah. Right? Because it's the one that appears self-sufficient and like independent and okay. What I see with a lot of avoidant people, which we may even, I think there are a lot of different

flavors of it. but one of the flavors is the hyper-independent flavor. What I see with that is a person who in childhood had one or two parents who were really not emotionally, like, had never learned how to be an emotional container for themselves. So projected all their emotional needs onto their kid. And then there's also this dynamic of like the kid is never good enough or it's never about them. They're never celebrated. It's really about the parents' needs. So then that person becomes hyper-independent. And then what I notice in that pattern, what tends to happen in that

hyper-independent pattern is like, I don't need anyone. I'm going to be able to do this all on my own, but I actually do need people and I want people. But as soon as someone shows a sign of like doing something that displeases me or asking too much of me, I'm going to just like totally shut off and keep going down this particular path because I can do this on my own. And a lot of them are highly capable people who can do a lot on their own. And when you explore their inner worlds, they don't want to do it alone. They want to be able to engage in like a super nourishing relationship. So that's, that's something that I see pretty often. Yeah. And I think because it's, It's always so confusing to somebody that's anxious or even somebody that's secure,

but just in general with like with somebody avoidant. I know that they can go for a little bit where I'm like they might be regulated and everything's fine. And then the second you start to like talk about feelings or emotions. It's like it's this overwhelming. And always the thoughts are, oh, they don't care. And it's like I think we can have some compassion for these people to understand like when they're dysregulated, whether it's really good or really bad. It's like that's scary to them.

That's dysregulation. And their thought process is like, I got to remove myself. like this is too much. I can't handle it. I don't know how to show up for these people. And it's such a, that's where it's like there's such a common misconception. It's not that they just don't care. Like it's not an indifference of just being like, oh, you have emotions. But it's like more of it's overwhelming for their own nervous system. And like I always try to explain. I'm like, anxious outwards, avoidant, inwards. I'm like, they're both suffering. They both have insecurities. They are both feeling abandonment and rejection.

It's manifested. Now, with that being said, we go into fearful and dismisses. which are still, I understand it, but I'd love you to go into it further because that is something that I'm still new to. I've heard like all different ways of categorizing them. So tell me what you see fearful, dismissive as so that, then I may have a perspective on it. So for me, like when I was introduced to all this, because like I read attached, ooh-hoo, like every other fucking person. But that was the first time, what is this was 2017?

Ironically, my Superboynex, who's a narcissist, gave it to me. And I was like, oh, because he thought I had the problem. Shocker. And I read it and I was like, okay, I understand avoidant. I understand avoidant. Low sense of others, high sense of self. I understand an anxious. Low sense of self, high sense of others is why the validation.

Secure. Okay, fine, you could do both. To me, what I see the fearful and dismissive, to me, I always thought they were the same. I didn't realize if there's a difference. Low sense of self and low sense of others of this like they're wanting. And I think a lot of it from my understanding comes from like abuse. homes and that kind of parenting of you want the love, but then every time you went for it, you were reprimanded for it, so you remove yourself.

Got it. The word that I'm familiar with is disorganized attachment. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, but I'm not, that has happened, like different words for it. But yeah. Okay.

So fearful, fearful, dismissive or what might be called disorganized attachment. I think the best most relatable way of describing the wound underneath that, like think about think about a parent of a newborn baby and that parent experienced a whole bunch of childhood trauma where when they had certain needs they weren't able to express them or they got hurt or whatever right so that parent like with loving intentions their baby starts crying so they pick up the baby to soothe the baby but then all of a sudden the baby's crying triggers their unprocessed experiences of like communicating needs and not having those needs met, right? Or being hurt when they communicating those needs.

And so then all of a sudden that parent like loses the soul in their eyes, right? Or it even makes them angry that the baby is crying. So the intention was to love, but then it turns, it switches on a dime and it turns into anger or violence or abuse. And so maybe they hit the baby or maybe they just cut the soul off and the baby can't see the warmth in the eyes anymore. Either way, the baby was experiencing some fear. It had a sense of who the source of safety was. So communicated to that source of safety. And then in the process of communicating to the source of safety, the source of safety then became the source of fear.

So think about how confusing that is for the baby's nervous system. Like the source of safety and warmth is also the source of fear is also the source of safety is also the source of fear. that's generally, that thing is generally at the core of disorganized attachment, which is like it shows up as craving connection, yet destructing any, just destructing connection all the time. Man, I just got the chills when you were talking about that. Wow. You know, that's a really good way to put it. And I'm with you. I'm like, I don't know the fucking terminology for it, but I know, do you see it? Because a lot of people say I'm both. Do you see it as is it really like an amalgamation of both or is it kind of its own? entity. So the truth is, is I think that the learning, the categories are helpful to get to a place where you no longer think about the categories. You are more specific about what is happening in your experience. Because that thing that you were talking about a little while ago with like identifying the why and then even going to that place of like, oh, if I think about myself, doesn't that make me a narcissist?

all of that is the product of anxiety, which is hoping that thinking about things the correct way is going to be the thing that resolves the problem. What anxiety is, it's an awareness that there's an effect. The effect is the vigilance or the hyperactivation in the nervous system in the body. So what anxiety is is trying to identify the cause through analysis. So thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, hoping that. the intellectual satisfaction is going to be the thing that helps that person connect A with B. And when they connect A with B and they identify the cause, well, then they can like to have a different

experience. But it doesn't work. It's endless. And that's that thing of like every man in the world could text you and it wouldn't be enough. So what we want to do is get out of the process of categorization and intellectualization and am I in this, do I fit this? And more just in an experience of this is what is happening for me. I'm feeling this. I'm thinking this. And I wanted to share that with you because what I would prefer to be experiencing is groundedness and these thoughts.

And I want to use our relationship to help me get from where I am to where I am to where I want to be. Being in that place is the thing that does what people are hoping to get as a a result of correctly categorizing themselves as a certain attachment type, you know? Yeah. I don't see. I'll get that where it's like, I think the guy I'm dating is avoidant. And I think I'm, I'm super anxiously attached. And I'm like, okay, hey, why don't we strip all the names? And I'm like, let's just get down to how do you feel? How do you feel with this person? do you like how you feel with this person? Doesn't matter if it's fucking Gandhi or if it's a person that's a narcissist.

I'm like, what does it matter the title that we give them? And I think it almost gives like we've talked about that identity. Oh, well, if I know if I identify him as avoidant, well, then I know what I need to do to combat that. It's like, or let's come back to ourselves. Same with disorganized. And it's like I'll get a lot of people like, you don't talk about that enough. It's like because at the end of the day, they're all stemming from an insecurity. They are all stemming from.

It's all, exactly. It's a disconnection. Exactly. Exactly. The solution for all of them is the same, which is taking a look at what the experience is, taking accountability and responsibility for your participation in the experience, for being attracted to, attracting and choosing that experience, deciding whether or not you like that experience or what parts of it you like

and what parts you'd like to be better, investing in what you like, and then transforming or releasing what you don't like. The process is the same. And so, yeah, you're so right. The hyperfixation on, like, who's to blame here? What's the protocol for this? I'm this. They're this. It's just hoping that intellectual satisfaction will create results and it doesn't. And that's where it's like, and then you're like, have you like my number one thing? I'm like, sit in the discomfort. And well, what does that mean? I'm like, Okay. Do you know everybody doing ice baths? I'm like, they're not, okay, most people in California, LA are doing it to be on Instagram. But the masses, I'm like, you're doing the reason you really do an ice bath. I'm like, is because you're putting yourself through an uncomfortable situation and growing a resilience to it by using your mind to overcome things.

I have done a million of them. And when I first started, I was like, I can't even do 30 seconds. And then a minute in, you're like, oh, oh, that's it. Oh, give me another minute. Give me another two. And I'm like, by sitting and growing a resistance to that uncomfortable feeling, what you're doing is your facing it head on as opposed to let me just intellectualize it. And if I just say that this guy's a narcissist, which everybody is a fucking narcissist these days, apparently, or it's like if this person's avoidant or if I can at least label them, I think what it also does is it releases some accountability on the person that is labeling. That's what it is. If I can, if I can label, oh, it's not my problem. And it's like, I know I had a client the other day and she's like, I go for the same

thing over and over. And she's like, it must be because they're all avoidant. And I'm like, no, what you're overlooking here is, what's the behavior you keep accepting? Because it doesn't just so happen to be that they're all avoidant. Sure. But it's like, what is the behavior that you're seeing exhibited early on that you are accepting that is a very, it's typical of somebody that might be that. It's not just because avoidance are the hottest ones. Right. Right. And there is something hot about avoidant energy. Yeah, but I do think that whatever that, that, that element, can be applied to non-avoidance. I do think that that's true. But the thing that you're saying, I think, you're so right. That's what it is. It's like, if I can correctly label this,

then I'm not responsible and I'm not to blame. Like, it's this thing that was in a book. And so now, okay, like this. But the way that, the way that I like, to me, the most accountable way of seeing relationships is I'm not choosing a person. I'm choosing the version of myself when I invest energy into them. Because that's what it is. If a person is finding themselves in patterns of where they're experiencing anxiety in relationships and where they're like the other person's avoidant, it's not about the other person. That person who's anxious is choosing to be anxious. Of course not consciously, subconsciously. The part of them believes that anxiety is the correct thing to be experiencing. So they will be attracting, attracted to, and choosing people and

experiences that allow them to continue to experience anxiety. And if they like that, like I would always say, like, if a person wants to spend their life angry and anxious, like I, my, I see my job as helping them become the best in the world at being angry and anxious without hurting people. So if that person likes that, then we're going to continue to do all the things that create that experience. If they'd like something else, well, the best way to create a different experience is to take the most amount of accountability and responsibility for what is and what has been and then to put the power in their hands to create something else. Oh, perfectly said. I mean, I love radical accountability. I'm like,

what but then there's the pendulum that swings. I'm like, no, no, don't take accountability for everything. It's not all your fault, but it's like what did what's my part in it? And I think kind of to round this out, because we've had such a great conversation. But one thing we didn't talk about is secure. It's like, you know, I think what's the number one thing we hear? Healthy equals boring. And it's like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on like, really what does secure look like or how does that, what does that feel like? And maybe for somebody, because like, I hear this all the time, I met this girl and oh, well, when she gave me a lot of attention or she or he or whatever they, it made me uncomfortable.

And it's like, for me, I'm like, oh, yeah, because it goes against your core belief. Like, that's, that's not in alignment with what you, what you actually believe. But I think secure is an anomaly to a lot of people. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that so that people can at least know what to look for. Yeah. So I, I personally never, never really think about secure. What I'm evaluating is this other person's capacity to co-create. So I hold myself responsible for being as highly capable of a creative being as possible.

Now, when I'm at my most, when I'm at my highest capacity to create, when I'm at my most adaptable, is when I'm sleeping nine hours, being really responsible about the ingredients in my food, like, committed to making a contribution to other people's well-being, like all the things, right? all the things and cultivating this relationship with myself internally that is about expanding my capacity to love. All of these things contribute to my adaptability and my ability to be dynamic and my ability to create whatever I want in any given moment. When I'm taking a look at whether or not I want to invest in this other person is like a romantic relationship, business relationship, whatever, I'm looking at their capacity to create their own experience.

And then what I'm looking at is our dynamic and our capacity to co-create. So what that means is what's our ideal vision? So let's take like a more macro approach. What's our 30 year vision? So what's your 30 year vision? Who do you want to be? What do you want to be doing? Like no holds barred, everything you want.

What do you want? What's mine? Where's the overlap? Where's the marriage? where's the harmony. Okay, amazing. I'm inspired by your vision. I like it. It seems energizing. The next thing is to start to take a look at your capacity to bring your vision to life. A lot of people have a vision. Not that many people are that committed to bringing their vision to life. So are you able to actually do it? Are you able to actually take the actions and the

steps to become the person that you want to be? The next thing I look at is the rate at which that you do that. So it might take you 30 years to become who you want to be. Am I okay with 30 years? Is that satisfying? Or do I, do I want it in a month? Is that satisfying to me? And so I'm taking a look at that. And I'm always looking at those things. I'm looking at the person's capacity to create and investing my energy into people who have visions that I like and inspire me and align with what I want and who have a high capacity to bring their vision to life. That thing, being a creative being is what we're talking about when we're talking about being a secure person. But this version of it is the opposite of boring because in this, in this co-creative version, it's about both people getting to become exactly who they want to be,

using the relationship as a source of energy and a source of accountability for both people to become exactly who they want to be. And in that model, the co-creative model, what I find is that when you're investing your energy and your attention into a person who has a high capacity to create, you get access to a vision of who you could be. That's even greater than what you could imagine on your own. And then the other person gets that too. That is the relationship that I am committed to teaching people. I don't even really know what secure is. And in that book attached, I, like, I think that's, I can't remember the statistic, but like a super surprisingly high level of people said were secure, right?

50%. 50. I don't know. I don't know a single person who is like fully secure. So I don't know where they got that number from, right? So strange to me. So I don't think about secure. I think about co-creative capacity.

But I'll give an example of what that looks like in a relationship that I like. So yesterday, my girlfriend, Emily and I, who I would really say that we are in a co-creative relationship in all ways. And I do want to say really quick that that thing of ideal vision, it applies to macro. It also applies to micro. So we do that process like in conflict. So within 20 minutes, what's your ideal vision? of this thing. What do you want? How do you want this to feel? What do you want the outcome to be?

And then like we're both doing what needs to be done in order to bring that vision to life. So micro and macro. But like an indication of a secure relationship to me, we're at Erdogan yesterday and this dude was checking out who was just an absolute God. Like six four brown curly hair, like the best looking face I'd ever seen so like perfectly jacked that I couldn't even comprehend it. And the dude walks out of Arawan and I see Emily like not able to not look at him. She had to look at it. And I was like, yeah, that dude is like truly a God amongst men. I love that you find him beautiful. I also love that like you probably could hook up with him if you wanted to. Like that, that was really fun to me. And

our relationship around that kind of thing, like to me indicated a high level of confidence and comfort and security. So yeah, I guess maybe that's like a marker of what might be called secure. I love that dynamic. Also, I probably know who the guy is. I know a couple of, as you said that, I was like, oh boy, do I trust me. I know. It's hard not to look. No, and I think I love that even, I love how you put that of like the co-creation because I know that with my boyfriend Comtech guy. And he for so long, he was a little more introverted. Like, he is introverted, who am I trying to kid? And a little bit more avoided and I had my anxiety, but we both came together. And it's like for me, what I really see as secure is like,

when I'm with him, it feels like a partnership. It feels like we're genuinely both here because we want to create the best. And half the time, even if I say something, he's like, you know, what matters to me is us. And he's like, and I want to make sure that I am thinking about that when we make decisions. And it's like, what a beautiful fucking statement. But even then to go like a step further. I'm like, what it also means to me being secure is that when we leave each other, just because I've been heard from him or just because we're both living life, like he works full time. I'm running two businesses. I don't think that the relationship is going to end simply because we haven't spoken. Or when we become close with each other, I don't get uncomfortable by

that. To me, really secure is like being really beautiful together and co-creating, but also then being able to self-create as well. Yes, yes. Having that balance of like when we're together, shit, but then we also still are still maintaining a sense of self. It's not always a we and in us. It's like there is sometimes a me and an eye. Yes. I think that that's so spot. And that would like a person's capacity to co-create very much relies on their experiences

of like singular creation. You can't show up to something and co-create unless you are creating your own without that person. It's like that makes me think about how in order to have the best love possible, that person I don't think can be your only love. And that's not necessarily say you have to love other people, though I do love other people. Like there are a lot of things that I love outside of the relationship and a lot of things that Emily loves outside of the relationship. And that just generates more energy to bring to the relationship. And then it sounds like you have the same thing. Yeah. It's like we both have so many things. And then when we come together, it's exciting to share those

things, but then there's that element of knowing, okay, well, I have certain friends I can do things with. And like, my partner doesn't have to satisfy every fucking need of mine. He doesn't have to be my my best friend and my hairdresser and my go gym goer and my gossip queen and my chef. It's like, no, my partner has a lot of beautiful qualities we share together. But then I also have a life outside of it, not like a separate life, but a life that I lead. And I sometimes like, I have a little bit of a Hannah Mantana's high, Miley Cyrus type thing where it's like my have my career and I have certain things that like he doesn't need to be privy to. But then when I share it with him for him to get excited about successes with me and share in those joys that he knows

individually I'm working on when I can bring them into the relationship and we can share in that together, chef's kiss. Like it's the most beautiful. Yeah. And it's like it's such a co-creation. And I think that to me is like that's the goal. Not that you feel, oh my God, I feel secure. That means that I never feel anxiety or I never feel avoidance. It's like, yes. Yes. But that I know. that there is a balance between and that when I do feel anxious, it's okay, I'm human. Yes. And maybe this is your experience, but in the co-creative relationship or in the secure relationship, it is really not about never experiencing anxiety. What it is about is getting to use your experience of anxiety as material to bring into the relationship for

you to problem solve and create something better together. That's what it is. is 100%. Like I feel so comfortable. Like if I tell him, it's something triggered me and he's like, share it. What happened? And if I'm like, I know this is nothing to do with you. He's like, it's okay. It gets me. It lets me know you better. And he's like, at least I know more about you. He's dope. He's fucking awesome. Like that curiosity, he is such an evolved human. That's why I'm like, you're never going anywhere. I feel so grateful. But then at that same time, I don't put him on the pedestal because I'm like, but I'm equally bringing that to the relationship as well because I know he also feels that about me. And that is why this is, it's such a healthy dynamic.

because it's not one versus the other. It's like, no, we're both co-creating. Exactly. Oh, man, Flynn, what is an awesome conversation. This turned into, all right, we're going to talk about this to, no, let's fucking go off on a tangent. And I am so, thank you so much for being on with us and sharing so much of your wisdom to everybody. And if for anyone that doesn't know where you are, we will link all this in the show notes, but where can they find you?

First off, thank you so much. I've enjoyed this so much. And I'm so happy that you've found, that you've attracted, are attracted to and are choosing that kind of relationship, because that's really like a beautiful indication of millions of amazing things that you've done. So I really appreciate and I'm happy for you. Really, the conversation is kind of popping on Instagram. That's like, the comment section on my, on my content is really fun and insightful.

really cool people on there. So the best place to start would be on Instagram, and I'm at Flynn Skidmore. Sweet. Yeah. Of course. I will link your Instagram, TikTok. I have given up on TikTok for a little bit just because it doesn't make any sense to me.

The algorithm doesn't make any sense. And the trolls are also really, really hard to digest. But nonetheless, you can find Flynn on both of those. And I'm just so excited. And hopefully let's do it again. We'll do another one later in the summer and we'll talk about more fun shit. We'll do it in North County. Sweet.

All right. when I'll talk to you soon. Ciao for now. Have a great day. See you.