The Sabrina Zohar Show - 24: 'Doing the work' and what healing looks like with Leo Skepi!

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Leo Skepi and I engage in authentic conversations about personal growth, resilience, and empowerment. We discuss the unique challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals, including societal norms, discrimination, and stigma. What 'doing the work' looks like to me and Leo as well as the toxicity in the Gay community. Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work Podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Guys, I am so excited. This week we have Leo Skepion. For those of you don't know him, he's a mental health advocate, and just one of my favorite podcasters, YouTubers, influencers, I just, he's amazing. And we have such a great conversation about what doing the work truly means,

healing, and what's happening in the gay community and ways that he keeps himself a little bit more sane while dating in it. So I'm just so excited. Let's get going. Hi, Leo. Welcome so much to do the work podcast. I'm so excited to have you. Hi, I'm so excited to be here.

Yay. Okay, so for anybody that's new, can you just give us a little bit of history about you, your experiences, and just what makes you you? Because I love your presence, but I love to hear it in your own words, like how you got to where you are right now. Okay, perfect. So I hate to admit it. I don't like to say this, but like,

I'm an influencer. I don't like to claim it, but I'm also more than an influencer. I have the number one podcast in education. It's called Aware and Aggravated. And it's around everything, self-development and self-help, mental health, all things like that. But broken down in a realistic way, not just shit that sounds nice. I can swear, right? Oh, who the fuck are you trying to kid?

This is perfect. Oh, yeah. So I have a lot of social media. I do the podcast thing. great fun. I act like it's not a big deal. It's a huge deal because I am the first gay person to chart number one in education, but also I've charted number two in all categories for like a week. And I'm the first gay person to do that. So that's insane. But I also have an entrepreneur. I have businesses and certain things I work on on the back end. But that's kind of like what I do.

But what do you want to know about me and how I got here? Because I am the type I don't overshare. So if you want to know anything specific, ask away. I'll answer anything, but I don't just ramble off. Okay, so you're not like me. I was going to say I was like, because I don't shut the fuck up. Okay, so I think, well, let's start here because somebody had asked, I did a question, a Q&A to see kind of what everybody wanted to know from you before we kind of just jump off and see what happens.

But somebody specific was, what is something about you that we wouldn't know by your social media? Because I think on your presence, you're so outward and outspoken and there's so much confidence. but is there like a little fun fact about you that we can even something that's playful to start off with that we might not necessarily know about you based off social? First thing that comes to mind, people don't know about me. I am a very strong person and that is clear through my social media and my podcast, the way that I speak, the way that I carry myself. But everything is in contrast.

So as strong as you see me is as weak as I've been. I'm extremely confident now. I'm extremely secure. and I love myself more than everybody. But I've been on the opposite. I've been cripplingly insecure. Zero self-esteem, zero confidence. A lot of people don't know that.

But the thing that people don't get about me is I have times where I feel very fragile and very weak. I am very strong and I can handle anything and I'm confident in that. And I show the strong side of me. But I also show the weak side of me and all that, but not typically as it's happening. So even with what I have now, what I've achieved, what I know, who I am, everything I've got going on, I still have moments where I get very overwhelmed and I feel like just a helpless little child. And I have to caretake myself. And I don't share that vulnerable side because I'm very protective of that side of me.

Like I always see it as like the little kid in me. And he comes out a lot and he's still there. Like your inner child never dies. It's always with you. So like as strong as you see me, I have weak moments. I feel very fragile at times. Does it mean I'm not going to handle my shit and get everything done?

No, I'm going to. But I do have a very sweet relationship with myself when I am down. I don't beat myself up like I used to. I take care of myself. And when I do feel very weak, I don't freak out and let it discount how strong that I am. I just take care of myself, recognize my strong points, recognize my ability to get through things. but I do have to comfort myself and go through those emotions a lot. And people don't expect that.

If I can say I can relate more than anything, because it's like there's that exterior shell of like this badass and oh, we've got everything figured out and everything's great. Look how confident secure. It's like, but on the flip side of that, it's like what came, what goes up must also come down. It's like there was a downpour.

Like I had a client the other day and she was like, you're going to tell me you were once as anxious as me. And I was like, oh, bitch, I put you to shame. I was like, I, my, the way I used to act five, six years ago, I don't recognize myself, but I also think that's like such a beautiful part of this journey that we're on is you're human. You're going to have moments and I'm excited. I'm happy that we started there because I think it's so important for people to, anybody listening to understand like, there is no aha moment that one day you're going to

wake up and be like, okay, that's it. I'm healed. Yeah, I'm good. Nope. Nothing bothers me. Everything's great. I'm super secure and life is roses. It's like anxiety still comes up.

insecurity still come up, things will still come up, it's how you handle it and the coping mechanisms that you use to handle it as opposed to, it's like, we make decisions. Does anxiety control me or do I control my anxiety? And so for you, I was actually curious, like, what was the turning point for you? Like, where was that moment where you were like, holy shit, like enough is enough, I need to make a change. And what did that look like for you? Because I think it can be so overwhelming for anybody out there that's like, I'm stuck. I don't know how to get unstuck. And I'd love to hear what you're. journey looked like of like what you were to where you are now and like how like you said those polarities that you have within you like when did you really like become more aware of all

that i reached basically a breaking point where enough was enough and i had to face the reality that what i was doing was not working so the way i interacted with other people was not working the beliefs i held about the world the way i reacted to myself the way i reacted to my emotions was not working. So my breaking point, truly, was I've never been anyone's favorite in my life. I've never been chosen. Someone's always been chosen over me. I've never felt valuable.

And a lot of people were chosen over me who I saw myself as better than. And that will fuck you up. Because the things that I realized about that is when someone rejects you or doesn't like you or doesn't want you or your child or your parents like you're their child but they seem to like someone else more than you or choose another kid over you like I've had a lot of situations happen that were bad like abandonment people being chosen over me and when you're a kid you don't know how to make sense of it so the first thing you do like you I can evaluate and assess I'm better than who I was just chosen over so what's the problem and it sends you on a sky.

scavenger hunt of trying to find the problem. If you convince yourself there's something wrong with you, it gives you a sense of control over a situation you feel powerless in. You cannot control if someone chooses you or wants you or not. So whenever I would convince myself, I was the problem, I would turn the knife at myself and try and dig and nitpick myself and find anything that could be wrong. Whether it's the way that I looked, the way that I acted, the way that I walked, the way that I talked, what I did for a living, sports, working out, like anything, anyone wanted or I thought they would want of me, I became. And I got to a point, people asked me how I'm so well-versed, and I know so much, and I can do so much, I can play any sport, I can have a conversation about

any topic in the world. And I'm so well-versed because I've tried to become everything. And it never worked. I became the best at everything. and I became better than every option someone could choose and they still didn't choose me. So it took me a long time before I hit that breaking point of maybe it's not me that's the problem. What else is going on? Because it's so logical, I'm the better choice, but I'm still not being picked. So to convince myself further, keep attacking yourself and figure out what it is, that doesn't work. So that was my breaking point was where it no longer made logical sense that I was not good enough.

That's the thing. I always felt like I wasn't good enough. And I got to a point where it was so just stupid to even continue thinking that way. I was like, let's explore other things. And that led me down a path of reworking everything. And it's so funny because I try to explain that like those core beliefs, like, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy.

Oh, if I were prettier. I'm like, this has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with ourselves. because I'm like, think about it. I mean, whether you're gay, straight, it doesn't really fucking matter what community you're in. We're human beings that love and that feel and that have these emotions. So if we're going to even go on that thought process, I'm like, how many times have I gone on a date with somebody

and you leave being like, they were nice, I just didn't feel it. I didn't leave being like, they're not worthy of my love. They're not deserving of me. It's like, no, that is that core belief. And that's why that narrative is so fucking important that you had, like that you were talking about. Like you started to assess, wait a minute. what is happening here?

And the inner child work, I know it sounds like so crunchy to so many people, I will live and die on that goddamn sword because it changed my life. Like I totally understand what you mean. Like I used to, I used to use my body in a way to convince people to love me. Like I turned to sex because to me it was control and it was that. And it's like that all stemmed from like daddy issues and having an inconsistent parent and all that. And it's like there was an understanding a bit of a cognitive awareness and like that I had

intellectualized. the healing component, but when it actually came to like, what did healing look like, without the inner child work and reconnecting, hell and a handbasket. Like it was never going to happen. And without, like you said, reparenting and having to say, hey, so I know that nobody chose you or that you feel stuck and you wish that you could escape right now. And it's like, great, to let me take you out of this. Let me come and save you.

Let me be that support for you to get you away from this experience that you were so desperately trying to get out. And I'd love to know what an understanding. child work did you utilize or modalities or things that you used to reconnect with you that you felt were super profound or that helped you kind of like see more success in that journey? So the one thing that changed the most for me is looking back on experiences and looking, like I convinced myself that people just hurt me all the time and they hated me and didn't like me and I wasn't good enough and I felt like everything was an attack. I'm over here doing

everything I can for you and you still don't want me. You're intentionally doing it. So the thing that flipped a lot for me is revisiting every experience that I could recall that was a big moment. And I would go back and look at. And this is what ultimately repaired my relationship with my parents and me. And it's not a fun process to go on. But I looked back and I said, okay, I've gone through this experience looking through the lens of this person was intentionally trying to hurt me. Let's look at and explore the possibility. Maybe what could have been happening or how would this situation be different or how would it make sense if their intention was not to directly hurt me?

And you open up to an entire new reality of so many more possibilities and so many more things that go into it because just thinking that people are intentionally hurting you, you're going to see the world a certain way. I have trust no one tattooed on my hand. And that's something that I still fucking live by. We'll never forget it because of what I've been through. But people's intention a lot of a time is not solely just to hurt you. Like with my parents, I had to revisit a lot because there's so much more that goes into parenting. And there's so much more that go, there's so much more to be taken into consideration with every single experience you have. So just by exploring the idea of maybe what would this look like and how would it feel if their

intention was not to hurt me? Like what else could be going on? What else could have been their intention? What could they have been dealing with that made them make the decision that they made? It helps you explore everything where the knife is not stuck in you repeatedly. You realize there was no knife or you realize sometimes you were just collateral damage. And when you realize your collateral damage, it is a relief that you weren't intentionally trying to hurt me. So when you do this process and you see that, I said it's very uncomfortable, when you do this process and you assess a situation that you experienced from a new lens of maybe this person wasn't intentionally trying to hurt me, you're then going to have to become accountable for everything you did that was mean or bad or hateful.

toward them if that wasn't their true intention. So you might have felt justified because you had it in your mind. You were trying to hurt me. You intentionally fucked me over and you lashed out or you handled things a certain way that was hurtful toward them. And then when you revisit this experience and you see they weren't actually trying to hurt you or it wasn't as directed at you and intentional as you thought, all of those things that you thought were justified that you did are no longer justified. So you have to be ready to take accountability and be able to comfort yourself when you go through this process because I had a lot of guilt come up and I had to reach out to a lot of fucking people and apologize for shit that I once was like, I'll die on this hill.

Fuck you until I stop breathing. I actually like realized, whoa, I did fuck up. I was in the wrong and you have to be able to be aware enough and be ready to take accountability at that level because I had to reach out to my mom who I hadn't talked to in years because I cut her off because it's something that happened. And I had to rekindle things with her and I had to do with a lot of old friends and people. But me and my mom are tighter than ever now. Like her and my sister are my two closest people in my life.

So there's a lot of healing to be had. And don't be a selfish prick on this whole selfish, like, in this whole like healing journey of you're the only one that has to heal. No, you need to heal the experiences and all the people that were involved. And when you give that repair, it heals everyone. It's like the four agreements. Like one of the main four agreements is don't take everything personally. Because like I, what I kind of learned with social media is newer for me.

Like I started TikToks like, what, September of last year? And like my podcast is only four months old and it's already like fucking exploding. So it's been awesome. It's been great. Oh my God. I love it. Thank you, baby. But with that comes, which as you know, the people that it's like, wow, you want to live in, life is happening to you, not for you. You are in that perpetual victim mode that it's woes me because it's like by not by staying there, you don't have to hold yourself accountable. And by saying, well, it's my anxiety. It's like, bitch, that's not an excuse. You can't just throw that on. I'm like, I used to do that. I used to be like, well, nobody, you don't accept me at my worst and you don't get me at my best. And it's like, no, because I'm not your mother. don't have to accept you at your worst. I don't have to put up with your bullshit. And I think it's

such a, it shows so much strength within you that you said, instead of saying, I'm going to die on that hill and I'm going to be, it's going to be ego and I'm going to let it happen. It's like, no, I need to make amends. I need to essentially do like, that's why even the 12-step program, like my brother had a drug problem growing up. So like, my family is very well versed in it. And I think if you haven't gone through something of that nature, kind of what you were just talking about, where it's like taking accountability of your fucking actions. No, not every guy's an asshole. No, not everyone's a fuck boy.

No, not everyone's trying to hurt you. Like there are just people out there that are also hurting. And like you said, it's just collateral damage or a crossing of the wrong path. But I think if anybody can take one fucking thing out of this entire spiel that we've had is like, own your shit and learn that like, it's okay. You don't have to blame or shame yourself into healing. You can show yourself compassion and say I did the best I could with the information that I knew, but now I know better.

Exactly. And what you just said about holding, well, you don't want someone out there worse. Like you don't, I agree with that. I am fully down to hold space for you at your worst. But if you think being at your worst as an excuse to treat me like shit, kick, rocks, choke and die. Get the fuck away from me. I'm very protective of myself.

But one thing I want to reiterate about the whole taking accountability thing, so many people get into conflict because, one, is ready to revisit a situation and be accountable. The other is not. They're still trying to die on their hill. There is no grounds for understanding there. Leave them the fuck alone. There is no healing going to happen with rekindling certain situations.

Like, with an ex of mine, the things he did to me, I've revisited things on my own. I don't need an apology. I don't need shit from him. I need him to take his last fucking breath. Then I'll feel better. You're like, and I'll be there to watch. show there's some people you just cannot and should not reenact, reenact with and reengage with. Like, once certain things happen, revisit it on your own, get through as much as you can.

But other situations, a lot of them, if it's not a serious one, if both people are ready to take accountability, great. Because if one person shows up to the table ready to take accountability and the other doesn't, they're just going to turn it when you start taking accountability and seeing where you fucked up, they're going to start guilting and shame. And you see, you're wrong. You're a piece of shit. No, we're not going to do that.

We're both going to put everything we did on the table. We're going to be understanding of our perspectives, explain why we did what we did, validate that it makes sense and move the fuck on. But I'm not for the whole guilt and shame blaming. It's like if I'm ready to be accountable and I see someone is not, I'm not talking to you. 100%. I'm not trying to get like blood from a stone. I know better.

I don't need forgiveness. I don't need you to say I forgive you. Well, that's, and I was like, I was going to say, I'd love to hear your thoughts on closure because that's always been a point of contention for me. I'm like, so you want the person that hurt you to all this also heal you? It's like, if you truly want to be able to close this chapter, there's a difference between I did somebody wrong and I need to own up to that. Like, I've done that where it's like, I've reached out to someone to say, you didn't do anything wrong to me. That was completely me and I sincerely apologize. And usually the answer is like, thank you so much.

Like that actually really did mean a lot because I always wondered what happened. that is like you said taking cannibility not going for the toxic awful like gaslighty manipulative ex and being like well i've done all this healing and i need you to own this and i need you to validate me and i need you to give me closure it's like are you doing this for you or for for your ego it's like this is not actually going to help you move on where you seek that closure is saying i know my part of this my part in this was i accepted bullshit for too long my part is i didn't have strict i didn't have firmer boundaries. My part was I was disconnected from myself. Those were my part. Their part was, they're a fucking narcissist. And this was reminiscent of my father, as you can tell, this is a personal

story. But like, that was my journey, was wanting to hate so badly my ex and wanting to hear it from him, that he did wrong. And then going through and healing and realizing, oh, wait, I'm just trying to relive the dynamic with my father, because my father was a raging narcissist. And we don't speak because of actions that he has made. And I was hoping that by being, by being, with somebody that was reminiscent of him, I could try to heal those parts of myself. I didn't need to hear my ex say that shit. Once I figured this out for myself, I was able to say, I know my part, I know his part. It takes two to tango.

And I'm not going to walk away and be like, oh, it's everybody else, not me. It's like most of those narcissists when you go out with them. But it's important, and I'm really glad you clarified the difference between like making amends with people that you genuinely want a relationship with or that you genuinely feel like you hurt with your intentions versus I just want to seek close. and like hear it from this other person so that I can move on as if them validating you is suddenly going to make you find your worth. That's the thing.

So many people are not actually after closure. They want to hear the person who did them wrong, validated and say, I did you wrong. The only reason you seek that is because you're fucking insecure about your opinion, if you were done wrong or not. You have to validate yourself and the way you do it is by exploring the situation. from every perspective. Call yourself on your own bullshit, and you need no one to say,

I'm sorry. You can validate yourself. But that's the one thing people are after is validation for what they've experienced. If I shoot you, you don't need to hear me say, I've caused you pain. Right.

What is that going to do for you? No shit I caused you pain. Even if I want to walk off me like, oh, no, I didn't hurt her. Yeah, I shot her. I didn't hurt her. Then it's like, and also you want somebody that inflicted pain like that on you,

to have the self-awareness to be like, hey, you're right. You know, I did that because I'm really insecure. And when I was a kid, so I hurt you like that. It's like, and I think that is to me what I think when that happens, it's like you are taking the onus off of you and trying to control other people. And instead of having to look at what makes you so uncomfortable, what makes you feel like you can't what, where, what how about you instead it's, oh, well, if I figure them out, then I'll have a better understanding of myself.

And it's like, this is a little last backwards. what's happening right now in the gay community? Like, what is going on with dating? Because I'm hearing so many different sides of it. Some people are telling me that they're having success and they're meeting people that are genuinely interested in a relationship. And then I'm getting others that are like not at all having that. And it's everybody wants to hook up and everybody's treating us like shit.

And it's toxic. What are you experiencing? So I'm probably not the best person to ask because I'm very disconnected from the gay community. air quote. I don't go to, like, the parties. I don't have, like, much interaction with the gay community. And not because I don't like it, but I don't resonate with it. Like, a lot of the shit people do, I don't agree with.

I'm a very morally and ethically driven person, and my values are what I hold close to me. I don't do hookups. I have not hooked up with anyone since last August. It's almost been a year. and I don't really have any interest in dating. My stance on dating right now, I'm so busy with my own goddamn shit. Like, men just fuck everything up.

So I'm kind of, I'm open to dating. I'm open to finding a partner. And if it falls on my lap, great. If we cross paths, great. Am I seeking it out? No. But from my experience in the gay community, typical traditional dating, good fucking luck.

Everyone sexualizes everyone. I have plenty of podcast episodes about, hookup culture and all that shit. But the gay community, they do not operate the stereotype, the stereotypical gay, stereotype of gays. We do not operate with the same moral code. Therefore, I don't feel like I'm a good fit. So I kind of like respectfully just keep my distance.

I love the gay community. I will support them. I will fight for them. If I see anyone getting made fun of them, I'm killing the motherfucker, I make a fun of them. I'm very big on that. Like, I love my community. I'm just not an active participant in the activities. I don't agree with, if that makes sense.

So it's very common for like open relationships to be a thing, not my cup of fucking tea. If we're dating or not touching anyone except me, I don't give a flying fuck. I'm very old-fashioned. I'm Albanian. So I have very old-fashioned views that I was instilled with. And my morals and traditions and all that.

And my loyalty is very different than most people. So for me, you can tell I break a lot of molds of what it's like to be gay. And I'm not going to be. be someone who is with a typical gay. So I don't even get around them because I know that's not going to be where I'm going to find anything. Like, I need to be where I'm comfortable and where like what aligns with me. So in essence, you did answer my question because you're like, I don't want to be part.

It was the same like when I talked to Cammy about the lesbian community and she was like, I distance myself from that. And she was like, it's just because it's, it is toxic. There is a lot of that mentality. And it's like, I can only imagine if you have, date. men as difficult as it is. So now having two people that are like trying to avoid dealing or doing any of the work or trying to, you know, stay in those stereotypes and say in that, like, I know that world. My dad actually, funny story, my dad owned a gay club in New York for almost 30 years.

So like, I grew up going to New York all the time and going to see. It was a drag show. It was like one of the first. This was in the 90s. And it was like, to me, it was such a, I loved the community. I was always so interested in it and being around it. But I didn't really understand. Like, I always remember my dad joking around being like, like, oh yeah, there's holes in the bathroom and being like, what? Like, what do you mean? Like, oh, wow, there's dudes like hooking up in the bathroom all the time. And it's like, of course, as a straight woman, I'm like, I mean, I have done that in New York.

Don't get me wrong. But I lived, listen, I had a good time when I lived in New York. But like, not to that extent. So I can understand. And I was going to ask you like, if there were any misconceptions or stereotypes about like the gay community that you felt. But I don't know, based on that description that you just gave, it sounds like it's pretty, the stereotypes are kind of what we think they are. Yeah, they really are.

There are some good gays and all that, sure, but like, the biggest problem I have with everything is the hypersexualization. It's so common and normal to fuck everybody and fuck all your friends. Like all these gay guys that are in clicks, they've all fucked each other. And I don't like that. I'm not dating someone whose friends with someone that used to fuck. That's not going to fly with me.

Old school values. Sorry. But people that are not reserved, and they do not require any sort of proof that you're of caliber to access them. They're able to just, like, you can get on Grindr right now and have someone sucking my dick in five minutes. I don't like that. I don't like people who grant access to themselves quickly.

I don't like straight people who do it. I don't like gay people who do it. Not that I don't like them. I don't choose to associate with them and have them near me and close to me. And my friends with people who hook up freely, friends, but not anyone very close to me. because I don't like that. I personally do not agree with it. And I don't like the whole hypersexualization around gay people, especially online.

I don't show my body online. I'm always in a tank top or a shirt or a jacket. This is the most you'll see is like me in a tank top. And I'm the anomaly now. I'm like the outcast because I don't have my whole body out and my ass out and my dick print and my shorts. That's something I really don't agree with the social media is. everything is so sexualized. And I'm just going on a rant at this point,

but it pisses me to fuck off because I'm like, this is the only thing that you recognize in yourself that you can get attention for. That's the only value you see. That's the only thing you know you want to offer? I don't like that. I'm with you. And it's so funny because then I speak to so many people in the community

and it's like they want more. It's like you can see that some people are like, I want more. I don't want just this like frivolity and I want depth and I want somebody. And it's like, well, but are you standing in your own way of getting that? because if that's what you want, then the boundaries and non-negotiables need to match that so that when you're out dating or you're putting yourself out there, then you're not going to fuck with people like you said. I'm not going to engage with people that live in that kind of lifestyle.

It's not because we're judging them. It's because I don't resonate with it. I don't agree with it. So it's always going to be budding heads. If you have somebody in your life that is like me, I don't drink a lot of alcohol. I'm not going to be friends with an alcoholic. There's going to be a ton of differences because lifestyle is different as well as the thought processes and things like that that come about it. Right. I do understand the community and I understand why they are the way that they are because we all deal with the same feeling states and things you're trying to get rid of. And like you're saying, people say that they want different and then don't act on it. It's because a lot of the things that gay people do are coping mechanisms and they don't realize it. So sex and hypersexualization, that's a coping mechanism. Drugs, COVID mechanism, partying all the time, nonstop.

mechanism, shopping. I have that one like a bitch. But that's just because of fun. I have fun with it. But like, I have restraints around things. That a lot of the gay community has no restraints or discipline when it comes to what they're engaging in. And a lot of people will say, oh, I don't want to engage in hookup culture. I want a deep relationship. But they will not let go of the hookups and the partying or they'll do it for a week. And they are faced with all of those emotions they are not dealing with. haven't dealt with and they just resort back because that crippling loneliness, that sense of feeling defective that we all have because society teaches you that being gay is wrong. Like we all feel defective in our own little way. We all feel off. Like we've all just

grown up observing the outside world as so much different than us and you feel so defective and misplaced and wrong. So people that haven't dealt with that or haven't faced that or haven't ever addressed it, when they take away their coping mechanism, they're going to jump back to it because they might say, oh, I want a deep connection. Are you willing to do the tradeoff of everything for the instant comfort now, do all that deep shit, wait for that partner to come along? Because I'm in the period of waiting and I have no problem waiting, but a lot of people do.

They can't go without it. They can't be alone. So I understand the community and I know I talk very harshly and it sounds like I'm judging them. I am a little because wake the fuck up. God damn 2023. Stop. stop howing.

But I get fun and then I understand when a lifestyle is damaging and they just don't realize it's damaging. So they say they want these things, but they feel powerless to get them. So they just cope because to go and get a hookup, I can have one here in five minutes to find a guy I truly connect with. I'm going to sit here for a fucking year. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road, that's the Volkswagen TIG one. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression.

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Visit vw.ca to learn more. SuvW, German engineered for all. And it's like the quantity over quality component. Even in the straight world, it's like, are you fucking kidding? How many Peter Pan's when I lived between New York and L.A.? And I would meet, good luck, enjoy L.A. when you get there.

But it's like, you meet these people and it's like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, come here. You're 43. You're single. You've never been married. You haven't had a serious relationship in like seven years. And God forbid, I remotely even say, hey, I like you. I didn't even get the L out before that dude was running through the door.

And it's like, at the end of the day, I go home and I put my head on the pillow at night. I know who I am. I know what I'm standing up for. And I know I know the work that I'm doing on myself. But I think I wouldn't even, it's like, it shows us. really like the commonalities. It's not just the gay community. It's like there's just people in general, but of course it's exacerbated in that community that don't want to do any of the work. The discomfort, like I, my famous thing that I always say to people, I'm like, you need to learn

to sit in the fucking discomfort. You need to learn how to sit in that. Not just for 10 seconds and then be like, this hurts. I don't like it. So I'm going to text the guy that I've been avoiding doing that because if I do that, I get my instant validation or I get to reaffirm to my core belief that I'm not actually good enough because this person didn't answer. Instead, it's like, we're you feel that in your body. It's amazing how many people I ask that to where I'm like, okay, you felt anxiety. Where'd you feel it? And they're like, uh, my thoughts. I'm like, no, no, no, no, that's not what I asked. Where did you feel it? Stop trying to intellectualize of like, well, I can read every book and I can do everything and I can listen to every podcast. Like people could

listen to the two of us all fucking day and probably could because we both talk a lot and we both talk in the same sense. And they could probably learn a lot. But then when the rubber meets the road of, oh, I have to actually implement it. Like Leo, I have to do a year. Okay. I have to sit and realize, I'm not just going to meet this person every day. Or like me, I was very selective of the people. I was single for five years because I didn't just want to jump into a relationship. And I wanted to make sure the person I'm with is a person that actually, how do I feel about the matters or how do I feel with them mattered more than how I felt about them?

And sitting in that discomfort, I feel like maybe in the gay community, it's just easier to mask. It's easier to be like, I'll just go out to a party. I'll just call my friends and do drugs. Or yeah, I'll just go on Grindr because that instant gratification, it doesn't. buys more time between the like, hey, man, what are you wanting away from? I agree. But I also think that gay people deal with, I don't mean to sound like an asshole, but the things that we feel and have to deal with is a lot more complex.

And I see why people run like health from it because there's no way to make sense of it. Like straight people don't deal with the feeling defective. They might, but they don't feel intrinsically. defective from how they were born. Like, they at least fit in for like the stereotype, like the, the expectation of what you're supposed to be, they fit in. They look around and see movies and all this shit. And yes, it's gotten better.

But like, when I was growing up, being gay was not common. It was disgusting. It was gross. If you were gay, it was hidden. When you hide something, it sends the message that it's wrong. So I get that I just honestly feel like there's so much more complexity because it's where still human we all go through the same things and you tack on sexuality and all that good fucking luck bitch but my whole perspective with sitting in discomfort i personally

don't just sit in it i do my best to understand it what am i thinking about it what is leading to it like i do my best to understand what it's there for like what is this feeling how did it get here what is it trying to make me aware of and i try to understand the discomfort because when people would tell me just sit in it, girl, I don't want to fuck it. It's like saying just put your hand over a flame. I don't want to fuck it just burn. Like I want to feel like I'm doing something in it. It's like meditation.

I can't just sit here and think about nothing. Like I have to give myself something to do while I'm in the meditative state or while I'm just calming myself, focus on my breath. What am I doing in it? Like that's kind of my perspective. But everything that things that work for people are different. That's just what works for me. No, totally.

And allow me to clarify. When I say sit in the discomfort, yeah, I don't mean to. literally just feel it. I mean literally like you start, where is this coming from? What is this trying to protect me from? You start to get curious about it, but that's what I mean by sitting in it because it's so quick to be like, this feels uncomfortable. Okay, I have to bolt. Or I don't like this. And it's like, well, let's go a step further. Again, like what protective parts are coming up for me? What's the narrative? That's where like sitting in it is so important because you get to challenge those thoughts. You get to actually sit and be like, well, I can call myself out on some bullshit. I do that all the time.

anxious. And I'm like, no, bitch, you've been doing this again. Here we go again. It's the same fucking narrative that starts to play. And I'm like, I'm not going to shame myself or blame myself, but I am going to call myself out and say, I'm not going to let this perpetuate. And we're not going to let this take over our day because we've been here before. And I agree with you. I think the complexities of sexuality runs so much deeper and different. And I think everybody has their quirks. Like my religion, I grew up where it wasn't, you know, I had to, we had to hide and not be comfortable saying where we were. And it's like, that in and of itself will cause its own trauma and having your own sexuality. I think about it all the time. If being straight were,

you know, quote unquote, like wrong or, you know, how the perception is of being gay, how awful that would feel. Where you feel stuck in a body that you can't understand because everybody is trying to tell you that what the other way is right and you're feeling, but this feels right. So 100% I can, with more empathy than anything, understand why the gay community turns into those coping mechanisms because it is so confusing. And then you have the social norms. You have everything fucking piling on top of you. And I find it that the people that are really trying to climb their way out, it shows the strength and the testament to the will of wanting to do that, having the bandwidth to do that, not even just the want. Because to your point, it is so complex. And I just wish I want

people of the community to know, like they're not alone. There are people like you that have done all this work that have been able to process through it and don't let it define them anymore. And don't let it be a chip on your shoulder. And at the end, it's like, no, it's just an experience that I can grow from. And let me ask you, did you always know that you were gay? Like, how, what was that journey for you? It doesn't have to be a long story, but what was like that looked like for you and coming out? I'm just going to say yes. Okay. Yeah. Cool. I always just kind of knew, but the biggest thing with the coping things we talked about with the gay community, what I felt personally is looking around life when you know you're gay and you're trying to hide it.

Going on Grindr, I felt like I was finally understood. I felt like I was finally talking to people who got it. So there's, I understand the complexity of these coping mechanisms we talked about and going on Grindr and hook up apps. You get to feel like you belong for a second. Even though that's not the nature of what it's for, there's a lot of feeling states held in it. And that's where I want to just make sure everyone who listens to this know, I don't judge the gay community because I'm part of it. I've been through all of it. I've done the

hookups. I've done the drugs. I've done the partying. And I've found my way out of it. I don't judge people who haven't found their way out of it and found their strength. But when I say I don't get close to people who engage in all of that, there's a difference between who I allow close to me and who I allow in my life and hold a place like in my day-to-day life and who I'm like very involved with. That's different. What I screen people for through that is different versus my understanding and my love for anyone who's struggling with anything.

I'm very accepting when it comes to just being there for you and helping you through anything. That's a different topic. Like I'm not going to judge you because you did this, that, and the other. If my goal is to have you close to me, different Leo you're going to meet. If it's just to help you through something and give you advice, like I'm the most understanding, accepting, and sweet person you'll ever meet. So I just wanted to clue that up because I know I sounded like a little harsh when I was

talking before, but that's coming from who I let near me, not who I'm giving advice to. I can relate to you in that sense of like the anxiety community. Like I used to be so anxious and I'm like, I've gone. through it. It's like, I found my way out. I found the strength. I'm here. The people that are the same thing. It's like, I'm a voice. I'm an advocate. And it's like, I will be there and I will never judge anybody that's going through it. And I will help you through it. And it's like, yeah, but the people that are very close to me, it would just trigger me. And it was just, those are not things that I want to translate. So I 100% understand what you mean. And I think it doesn't come off as harsh or mean. I think it's, it's

realistic. You're being, you're, it's the tough love. I think that so many people really need to hear. And that's a big thing that I try to do. I'm like, I'm not going to fucking. sugarcoat this for you. Like, I wish somebody was there to like say it like it is. And I'd be like, oh, shit, wow, thank you. Like I needed that slap in the face versus all of the bullshit external content that we receive of like, do this to change somebody else or do this to avoid doing anything on yourself and just blame all these external factors. It's, I think your voice is so necessary, not just in the community, but in general because I think people need it. And I, maybe I'm saying that to make myself feel better. I don't fucking know. But I think having somebody

strong that can be a guide is something that's so needed. And so I'm grateful that you're here and I'm grateful that you were able to give a little bit of tough love because I think sometimes people just need to fucking hear it as it is and not how they want it to be. Thank you. It's been a long process getting here and I'm so fucking proud of who I am and what I've done because I've ultimately become what I've always needed. Yeah.

And the process of being broken down and building myself into who I needed was fucking hard. And I'm talking going from like the hurt little like vulnerable person, needing the guidance, needing the strength, needing to have someone you can look up to. What I had to do to become me, people want what I got. They don't want to go through what the fuck I've been through. And I'm just going to leave. And that's literally the perfect place to end when I get, how did you do this? I'm like, you ready?

Do you know what's involved to do this? It's like, oh, it's not to say that you can't. It's just that's why I think I get a lot of clients that will like bop out after a few sessions because I'm like, you're starting to realize what is actually involved in this. It's fucking painful. But God damn, what a beautiful journey. And it continues every single day. But what a great journey for us to sit here and talk about how we turned pain into purpose.

How amazing is that there's something that came out of all of this exploration. And I'm really hopeful that everybody can learn so much from you because you are such a guiding light. And so thank you for doing that and for being vulnerable with me. I know that you keep some things close. And I really appreciate you coming on the pod and being there. And for anybody, where can they find you if they wanted to connect with you at all? So we'll start with the podcast. My podcast is called Aware and Aggravated.

It's on YouTube. You can watch the video versions. And then the audio versions are on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Everywhere you listen to podcasts are there. I recently just joined Snapchat because they're about to pay the fuck out of me. Fuck, yeah. So I'm Leo Skeppy on Snapchat. I'm Leo Skeppy on TikTok.

And I'm the Leo Skeppy on Instagram because some fucking brat took Leo Skeffi. I had somebody to do the work. And I'm like, you're not doing the fucking work. I was like, you made me do the work. Leo, I'm so grateful. You need to make it did the work. Yeah, exactly. Bitch be doing it.

Thank you so much for sitting with me. And thank you so much for opening up and sharing. And just thank you for being you. It's so fucking refreshing to meet somebody that I feel gets it. And so I'm glad that, you know, you were able to bestow a little bit of wisdom on the community. Thank you so much for having me. One thing I want to reflect to you real quick is you've provided the space for me to feel comfortable to do that by being yourself. So I want to thank you for that because that takes courage as fuck.

Thanks, Leo. We're just going to keep going back. It's going to be like 17 minutes of being the episode of us just being like, no, thank you. Sucking each other wrong. Leo going in August, I changed that. Oh, God, I would love it. And on that note,