The Sabrina Zohar Show - 27: Emotionally unavailable and anxious/avoidant trap with therapist Zoe Crook

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by therapist Zoe Crook to chat about emotionally unavailable, anxious/avoidant trap and debunk the myth that avoidants are the 'bad' people in dating. Zoes Book HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Guys, I am, like when I say amped, I amped for today's episode. We have Zoe Crook. Literally, she's one of my favorite therapists I've been following for a long time. And we are going to talk about emotionally unavailable, anxious, avoidant, dismissive, disorganized, all the attachment style stuff. What is the fearful avoidant and the anxious trap?

What is happening with emotionally unavailable? and just everything that has to do with it and probably more so, why do I hate if you wanted to, he would? So without further ado, let's get right on into this episode because it's going to be a damn good one. Awesome, Zoe.

I am so excited to have you. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, excited to be here. Sweet. And for anybody who doesn't know, Zoe's calling from the East Coast, I'm on the West Coast, so we kind of do a little swift swap.

But Zoe, for anybody who is not familiar with you, can you just maybe give us a little bit of your background and what you kind of really focus on and just more about you because I think people that don't know you need to know you. Yeah, sure. God, where do I start?

I feel like I have to go all the way back to my childhood, but I won't do that too. So I knew that I wanted to do this work from a young age. I just wasn't ready to go back to school and make the commitment that, you know, I had to make to get here. And I think I had to have a lot more life experiences, a lot of shitty relationships. I had to fuck up a lot, you know, I'm a relationship expert because I've made like every single mistake. Yeah.

And then, you know, I went to school and kind of. kind of just fell into this niche of working primarily with couples and people who are going, you know, dealing with different attachment issues and trying to navigate this really challenging thing that we don't have a blueprint for and we're not taught how to do. And, yeah, I now see clients from all over the world and, which is also really fascinating to see people from different cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds and all that stuff and realize, It's like we all have the same problems. The more, the more personal it gets, the more universal it becomes.

So yeah, here we are. It's so funny. I had someone today when I was live and she was like, do men feel the anxiety like women? And I was like, wow, we're humans. Like there's so many people. But yeah, that just kind of side note. And yeah, for so many people like I've been following you for a while just because I love the way you articulate things.

I love the way you put into bite-size information, the amalgamation of bullshit that's happening in my head. You somehow seem to make it very organized. So I'm excited to introduce the community to you. And I think today, something that I see you post a lot about that I talk heavily about really is like emotionally unavailable, avoidant, anxious avoidant, trap, things like that. And so I kind of wanted to jump in because what I'd like to do, I have my own like definitions and shit. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on like, what does it mean to be emotionally unavailable first off? And then we can kind of go from there because I think that's just a term that no people, are very confused about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I think emotional unavailability

speaks to your relationship to self, not to the other person, which I think is a big misunderstanding. And when someone's emotionally unavailable, we might take that personally or think it's, you know, because of something we did. But truly, if you are not available and present to your own internal landscape, and if you don't know how to navigate that and sit with pain and fear and rejection, and love and all these really triggering emotions, it's going to be extremely hard for you to be in an intimate relationship with somebody who isn't just, who isn't also avoidant,

and you're just kind of on the surface. Like if you're looking to be in an intimate relationship with someone who wants to do the work and wants to have real conversations and wants to progress, you got to be familiar with your internal landscape. And that's what I think emotional unavailability comes down to in a nutshell. I used to always say I'm like, think about it. There's somebody that is so disconnected from themselves.

How would you like them to also connect with you? It's like, yeah. Yeah, it's not going to happen. And to what you were just saying about that person who asked that question, like do men feel the anxiety? I mean, as you were getting at, yes, they feel the anxiety. There's actually numerous studies out there that show that men feel more anxiety than women. They just don't have a container to express it.

They're not allowed to show it. So the only other option is to shut down. And that's what dissociation is. Dissociation is something that happens when our pain or anxiety doesn't have a solution. So men, I think, culturally feel farther away from a solution than women because they're not allowed to fucking talk about it. Yeah. Or feel it, you know? Yeah.

It's like, it's so funny because growing up, I never understood my mom disassociated. She was very disorganized. Like she had a large like childhood severe like immigrant childhood traumas. and I didn't understand it for so long. And now that I've started to do all this work, it's like I have so much more compassion for people that are dealing with this. That's why the one fucking statement,

I hate more than anything as if you wanted to, he would. Because it just lacks so much empathy and compassion of like, oh, I'm sorry, everything is just chocked up to wanting it. Well, you know what? I want to be a millionaire. So I guess I'm just, that's it. I must not want it bad enough then. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm glad you said that. because I think this is something that I'd really like to actually ask you. So typically speaking, in my experience, avoidance are the emotionally and available ones, right? Like, did those kind of go hand? Yeah, but anxious people are emotionally unavailable too. It's just a different, you know, I don't know if you want me to get into that. Please, I would love to see how it is differently. So, I mean, I think all, whether you're disorganized, avoidant or anxious, it's all emotional

on availability. Maybe avoidance are more obvious because when you're when you're talking to an avoidant and they shut down, they're dissociating. I mean, it's clearly you're like, you are not even available. You're not even in the room right now, right? An anxious person, though, is also tapped out. Like, they're not connected to their needs. They're not centered.

They're freaking the fuck out in total panic mode. Right. So that's also not being emotionally available because when you're in that state, you're not able to hear your partner. you're not able to even hear yourself. You're just in total fight or flight trying to find a panacea for your pain. So it's all kind of in the same realm, I guess.

I'm glad you said that because there's like this myth. There's this thing going around. We're avoiding so villainized. As if it's like, I had somebody today and they wrote, and even I said it to my boyfriend, he looked at me and he was like, I'm pretty sure that's what people used to say like anti-Semitism and like things like that. And he was like, they were like, they're sneaky.

They're doing this to hurt you and all this. And he was like, so you think they're so calculated as if they're out of malice. And I'm like, I hate to break it to you. It's the same thing is just manifesting differently. I'm like, I don't know why the anxious because they're outward. All of a sudden it's like, woe is me, poor you. But the avoidant is just the big bad wolf. I'd love to hear your kind of thoughts and experience with that.

Because I'm sure you have seen this in all walks of life. And also, I think what people get caught up is like the anxious avoidant trap. Like, how does that happen? Yeah. Well, it's all fear. It's all fear of intimacy and it's fear of abandonment. But this is what's so sad because if you have someone who's really avoid and and someone anxious who's dating, they actually have way more in common than they realize.

They're both terrified of being hurt by the other one. And if we could just have the conversation from that perspective, because I don't think that you need to be fully cured in your attachment style. to have a relationship. I just think that you need to be aware of how it manifests and open to working on it and discussing it and maybe going to therapy or getting a coach so you actually have tools to work through it. But it's like imagine having a fight.

Imagine a fight happens between an anxious person and an avoidant person. And in that moment, they can both actually just identify, holy shit, I'm really scared of losing you. I'm scared of getting hurt. Okay, what do you need to take care of yourself? What do you need to take care of yourself? Okay, let's do those things. And then we meet in the middle somehow.

I think that like anxious people think that they're avoidant partners having a completely different internal experience than they are. And I actually think that they're way more similar than than we might think. I love the way you put that because we got a lot of questions like, do they just not care? Do they just not feel? And it's like, yeah. No, they again, they shut down. They feel a lot. Yeah.

Yeah. And why would you shut down? Because you're feeling a lot. That's the only reason why we dissociate is when it when it gets too overwhelming to hold. So and I have. compassion for both because, you know, if I've also been anxiously attached and sitting in a room with someone who's completely shutting down or leaving the room or whatever, it's, of course you're like, this person doesn't give a shit about me. So it takes both, both people to make,

if you're in that dynamic in your relationship, it can absolutely work. I see couples all the time who are, who one's avoidant, one's anxious. It just takes commitment and courage to sit through it together. Which the keywords are right there, the commitment and courage component. Yeah. Because it's like if you have a partner that is always going to constantly bolt out or leave, or like I get the one of somebody asks like, how much space do I give my avoidant? And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

This isn't an excuse for bad behavior. This isn't you get to have a temper tantrum go into the other room. And then in two to three weeks, you can decide when you're not direct, you know, when you're now regulated, you get to come back to me. Yeah. Like my boyfriend, he's anxious, more avoided. We're very secure though. like we've both done ridiculous amounts of work and he studied psychology.

Like he's an incredibly aware man. But even the other day we had something he like snapped. He snapped at me not in a way, a rude disrespectful way. He was upset. He snapped at me about something that I said that someone else had said to him. And then what happened? I shut down. And it was like, I could see it playing out.

And I was like, okay, this could go one and two ways. I could either talk to him and just say like, which is the route, of course I went. Or I could shut down and then he shuts down and no one speaking. And I just simply had to go to him. There was no yelling. There was no arguing. And I said, I really didn't appreciate that. That really hurt my feelings.

And then that's when he said, can I be honest with you? I felt really insecure. And that's how I handled it. And he's like, and by no means, is that an excuse? He was like, but that's what came up for me. And you're right. I should do X, Y, and Z next time I'll talk to you. And yeah, it took me, you know, for the night.

I kind of felt like, I don't want to talk to. You know, I felt a little disconnected. Yeah. But then sure enough in the morning, I had to kind of have myself a little pep talk me with my anxious brain to say, this guy's not abandoning you. He's not dad. He's not walking out.

This is an incredible man who wants to work through things with you. And it's okay that you feel hurt. It's okay to honor that, but it's also okay to express that and not shut down, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's so complicated and layered and nuanced.

And I think part of what makes it so complicated is not having the words for it. And that's why I think more men are avoidant, just simply because us girls have been talking with our girlfriends forever about guys and feelings and right. And then men, you know, don't have the same conversations that women are having. So when when they then fight with their, we're talking about heterosexual relationships, like if they're then fighting with their female partner and she's using, she's naming her feelings and they're like, uh, I actually don't know what I'm feeling.

So the fact that your partner is able to be like, I feel in. insecure. It's like just naming it is what can heal and avoid an attachment style or an anxious attachment style, just naming exactly what you're feeling. And I think the problem is we lack the verbiage for it. We don't know how to communicate it, not because we're stupid or we don't care or we don't want to, but because we're not taught. And if our blueprint was our parents, well, fuck, for most of us, that's, that's not good. A hundred percent. I mean, my first, my sister and I would always do that practice. And this is kind of even what I do with clients.

It's like, where'd you learn this behavior? Like I used to say, I'm like, I'm too much. My sister was like, where'd you learn that? And I was like, it hits you. And I was like, I had an emotionally unavailable parent who did not know how to be around. And it's like, that's all I saw. I saw my mom not have boundaries and I saw my father treating her however he wanted. That doesn't need excuse or explanation.

It's like, I'm not using this as an excuse to excuse bad behavior. But it's more of a starting point of because I think a lot of people will get upset of Like, oh, if, you know, I keep going after emotionally unavailable people, it's like, well, then, are you aware of what it is that you want? Do you have boundaries? Are you speaking up? Yeah, yeah. Well, let's ask you, for somebody who's in that position, because I'm sure you deal with

people that come to you in all different walks of life in different parts. Let's say somebody has like never done therapy. They're kind of new to all of this. And if they're looking and saying, I'm noticing a pattern. Okay, I keep going for the same kind of guy. What would your advice be with where you've been and all the experiences that you've had? for this person to kind of start on this journey of like how to even identify what the patterns are, what's happening for them?

Hmm. Well, I think a lot of it comes down to self-worth. And then we have to look at what environment were you raised in and what didn't you get from your caregivers, not to get so Freudian or psychoanalytic care, but it's like it all comes from our childhood. Yeah. Right? So it's like if you didn't get the love and validation that you needed, you're going to grow up.

with certain self-beliefs. And then you're going to go out into the world and try to recapitulate that trauma with your intimate partner so you can heal it. So you're likely going to pick the same person that, you know, mirrors your mother or your father, whoever you had the biggest wounds with or maybe both. And obviously the problem then is is that they're going to be incapable in the same way that your parents were. But we do that to try to heal it, but we end up obviously in the same situation as we were before. So awareness is a huge part of it of just being like, oh, my dad was a nurse's. Oh, my mom was codependent. And, you know, I was there was triangulation and I was the scapego and I felt like

everything is my fault. So now I date men who also blame me for everything or whatever it is. It's like you kind of get a little roadmap from where you started and how you ended up there. And make sure that, you know, when you're starting dating somebody, you're not following the same the same roadmap. Totally. And I love,

it's true. It's like sometimes I'm like, I'm not trying to get all woo-woo here of like, it's your childhood. It's like, realistically speaking, it's like, it's your childhood.

I'm sure you get this. I get this a lot of like, no, I had a perfect childhood. I had no issues. No, no, it's because when I was 25, I dated this guy and he was an asshole.

That's why. And I'm like, baby, if you were that easy, if it were just that when you were in your 20s, you met somebody that didn't treat you well. It's like, no, because if you had a great pain, And again, I'm not trying to villainize the parents.

Your parents are the best they could with the information that they knew. Yeah. But if your parents had equipped you with the proper tools, then seeing this behavior, because like that was my thing. And you mentioned this earlier. You're never going to just be healed. I think that's such a fallacy of like, you need to heal first. And I'm like, what the fuck does that mean?

I'm still healing because I'm still being triggered by my partner. Yeah. But at the end of the day, what I am seeing is like, I get turned off or like when I was dating, obviously now I have somebody. but when I was dating, I'd get turned off because it's not like you're never going to meet these people. Because somebody asked today, how do you see someone if they're avoidant or emotionally unavailable based on their dating app? And I was like, fuck if I know. You know what I mean?

I was like, I have no idea. But what I do know is that within the first few minutes of a conversation or on a date, I'll usually be able to pick up on that. And I'm like, oh, you're avoiding this conversation. Or like, you know, it's funny. I posted something of like first day, first or second date questions to ask. I asked my boyfriend on our first date, what are your intentions with dating?

How did your last relationship been? And what did it teach you about yourself? I don't give a fuck about his ex. I wanted to know how he was going to describe her and talk about her. Yeah. And he was eloquent and beautiful and very respectful. And here we are. The amount of people, though, that freak out.

Like, I would never, I'd run if someone said this to me. And I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. You know, what I was saying earlier about relationships being nuanced is I hear so many different ways that relationship started.

And that's something I think that we actually don't hold enough because of our own fear. And I admit to this. Like some, I've definitely done this before where it's like, give me the black and white. Like give me the equation that's going to get me the best relationship. And I don't want the great faith. And if there's, you know, and then after you do this work for a long period of time and, you know, I've seen. hundreds, if not thousands of people by now who have completely different stories of how they got into something. Things that culturally we would shame, things that started from infidelity and are still

going 10 years later, you know, things that we like to put in certain categories and say, no, that's bad or know this is good or, you know, people who started out as friends, people who broke up and then ended up getting back together, people where someone was, you know, maybe coming off is avoided in the beginning and then, and then, you know, and I know that this probably isn't what people want to hear because we're looking for the magic bullet. We're looking for the equation that's going to get us to the place that we want to be, which is in a healthy, you know, for most of us in a healthy, stable, secure relationship. However, I would feel negligent to not talk about this.

And I feel like we need to talk about this more that like, this is why. it's so important to form a relationship with yourself first because this is about not only having intuition and sometimes throwing away the rule book and saying how do I how do I feel about this do I trust myself enough to move forward with this and do I trust myself enough to pick myself back up if it does fail you know a love is a lot of risk like you have to take some chances And sometimes there were people that, you know, I would have maybe had advised to not move forward in something. And then they move forward in it. And it works out.

And I'm so glad that I didn't because they had, they trusted themselves. They knew, they knew themselves better than I knew them. And I think a lot of this work is just supporting people to get back to themselves, to get in touch with that inner voice that that doesn't need to always look outward and look on, you know, my Instagram page or whatever. And, you know, I think a lot of this work is actually like listening to the voice within, if that makes sense. Not to say that there clearly are not people who are avoidant, who have major red flags. And yes, you should not continue with those people.

But, you know, the things that are a little bit more in the gray space, I don't know. I think that's interesting to kind of help people figure out how they want to hold it. Oh, I'm glad you said that because like even my. relationship started unconventionally in the sense we're like he wasn't texting me all the time and I was right right and I was he wasn't my type and he was very tough off and it's like and do you know how many people are like oh just break up with him you don't like him you're not getting it and I was like what I trust myself that no matter what I'm going to be okay because I was good before this guy I'll be good after him right honestly the surrendering component of it like just not trying to control not trying to attach to the

outcome and just saying, you know what? Things that I used to do may not working for me. So let me try something different because it's true. When people ask for advice, I'm like, listen, I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'm not going to tell you what to do because I'm not you. But what I will say is based on the information that I've received, because I can only go based off of the limited information. Here is what I would deduce. If I were going to take my money and bet on a guy that after six months is refusing to put a title on it, doesn't want to have conversations with you. You still find them on the dating apps. Your needs aren't being bet. No, I'm not going to tell you to keep investing further into this person. But yeah, you've met somebody

and after a couple of dates, there's a little confusion and I don't know. And is this a, yeah, if you trust yourself going, yeah, well, no matter what, I'm going to be okay because that person doesn't owe me anything. I think then you can change the way you date and change the relationships that you'll have with people because, oh, here's a spoiler to all of my anxious folks. You actually allow something to develop instead of anticipating worse or jumping into it has to end. It's like maybe we just allow naturalness to happen and that the other partner will feel safe and that they can disarm so that you can disarm in a relationship. Right. Exactly. And you know, there's probably guys that you would have not done that way. But maybe there was something in you

that said something about your current partner where you were like, I'm going to try something new. And that's what I mean about intuition. It's like it's hard. And you're saying like people are like, well, break up. He's not texting you back. And it's like, but you knew something and something in you was saying, yeah, but just chill and see where this goes. And that's the other problem. I think we like rush these things into developing. And I was just writing about this today. There's a difference between being ambivalent and taking things slowly. If you're ambivalent in the first four months, that's marked by hot and cold behavior, being invested and pulling away, saying that you want something than doing something else. That's ambivalence. Taking something

slowly is just letting it breathe. There's a natural, steady progression. But that I think sometimes can be can be confused as ambivalence or somebody being avoided or right, because we want it and we want it right now. And just letting something breathe and really just the question is like has this been consistent? Is there is there progressive effort? Like are we are we connecting? Right. Obviously this thing is a timeline. If you're doing this for two years, well, yeah, no, that's probably unless you both are cool with that. but if someone wants more like that's not going to work. But in the first like three to five months of dating,

I don't know, you're kind of getting to know somebody. Right? Well, to us. Yeah. To us, I'm like, oh,

just keep getting to know. I know at least when I was so hyper anxious, it was like, you know, and that's kind of the thing as like, oh, I always felt like I was going to be abandoned. And I'm like,

yeah, but I'm not dating my dad. Like you're not dating your caregiver. You're not being abandoned by a guy that you literally had one fucking date with. Okay. the guy said he was going to call you and he didn't. So all of a sudden you're not worthy and you're the piece of shit and you fucked everything up.

And this was the one. It's like, okay, let me ask you a question. What's his middle name? Where did he grow up? What's his favorite food? You don't know shit about this person. You know what you'd like them to be. And I think that's also it's like just allowing it to progress because I can tell you right now,

I put money on it. If I had acted in the way that I used to with my current partner, we would have broken up within the first week because I would have. totally cabosh because it was like you said when we'd leave I'd go yeah but he's super consistent he shows up he's reciprocal I don't have to guess where I stand if I ask him a question he's very upfront he's the one who like but yeah okay so he's not texting me every day that was where I had to tap into myself to say okay but this is you feeling like you're going to be abandoned and rejected that's why I'm also a big opponent of like you don't need to text all the time in

the first month of dating like just maybe let it happen and oh I don't know get to know somebody, but ultimately, too, understanding that the point of dating is to see if you have something. Not there's no commitment in dating. Yes. Yes. Yes. You, you, someone once said to me, you need all four seasons to get to know somebody. And yeah, it's so true. And it's like, you know, we can, I think especially like when we're having sex and things are really hot and heavy and there's chemistry, it's like, it's like we can feel so close to this person and like we really know them and lo and behold, something comes up six months later. And, you know, so it's a lot of times when I think we try to rush the natural progression of things, it blows up in our face and just chilling out a little bit

and letting things. And also like having fun in the beginning. Yes. Dating and allowing the courtship to happen and getting excited about things and maybe not seeing them every other night and letting there be a bit of space. It's like that's all, it's fun and it's also a way for you to stay present in your life. Yes. With your friends, with your hobbies. So if things don't work out, you don't feel like, you know, your skin went with them when they walked away. Oh, I love that. I know. I had done, I did a video about like distance creates desire and I'm like not intentional like, I'm going to put space. I'm like, I don't know. Go live your fucking life. Like go out and have your girls night. Go. No, sorry. I can't make it tonight. I have plans. Yeah. You watch.

for a lot of people that follow me, know I love this fucking show. Do you watch the show? It's trash. Love during lockup or love after lockup. No, no. Oh my God. My boyfriend, he was like,

listen, if we're going to watch trash, we're going to watch the best trash. And it's exactly kind of what we see. It's like these people that have these completely digital relationships with inmates, like these people are in prison. And so there's somebody on the outside and there's someone on the inside. And sure, and it's like, it's kind of like 90-day fiancé, too, where it's like, you know, they're apart.

This is exacerbated, obviously, because they're in prison. And it happens almost every single time where it's like they get enamored by them. No, this is my person and we're going to live this life. Yeah. They come out or like a 90 day fiancee, they meet. And then all of a sudden it's, well, who is this person? And I don't understand. It's like because yeah, when you're FaceTiming or talking on the phone or texting,

you get to see the best version of that person. Yeah. You don't know that they're unavailable or super avoidant or narcissistic or abusive. Like we don't know these things about somebody. And I find that the. digital relationship aspect to things is really, I think, hindering our connection ability. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is also why we need to be a bit more compassionate with ourselves in dating because I also have a lot of clients and I also used to do this all the time where

if something didn't work out, I would really beat myself out for it, find all the things I missed, like, you know, just look at them until they're seared into my brain so I don't do it again. And it's such a harsh way of dating. And it's like, look, you know, I, I've known, I've had clients who, who, who have been with people three years later, something really dark comes out. Yeah. You don't always know. A lot of this also, and people don't always like when I say this, because it's scary, but I think it's luck, you know, like, like some, it's, this is not, we can't predict everything. and we can do all of our work and see all of our blind spots and heal all of our wounds

and still be shocked by somebody for better or for worse. So it's like when you're dating, look, it's like you do what you can do. You figure out what you can figure out. And then if something doesn't work out, you don't need to flog yourself because, you know, you made a mistake. And I think that's another thing to really pay attention to is. And this is why dating, not jumping into relationship, but dating is important. because it gives you the space to collect data points without beating yourself up when something

comes up three months later because you still you still have a bit of autonomy. If that makes sense. I still dated other people when I was still actively seeking my partner because it's like, sorry, I don't really know you that well. I've had like a friend of mine, she dated a guy and after the third date he has to be her girlfriend. And when she, the minute she told me, I went, whoa, why? Why is this person asking to be their girlfriend after three dates?

No, and she was very defensive with me. And I was like, you know, listen, okay, I'm backing off. Like, sure, sure, you do you. Sure enough, what happened? A month later, we find he's wildly avoided. And when she confronted him, his response was, I get jealous when I see people, I'm dating with other people. That's why I wanted.

And she's like, that's manipulative. He's like, yeah, I guess so. And I had to stop. And I was like, okay, let's look at this. Like, let's actually take this to understanding. Like, we are looking so hard at, like, that's why I don't even like action speak a lot in the words. like, no, no, no, they have to match here because one doesn't, isn't more important than the other.

Yeah. Uh-huh. That's not how this works. It's like, but there are a lot of people that will say, I want exclusivity after one or two dates. And it's like, no, it's because you're trying to quell your anxiety. You want to feel chosen. You want to live the fairy tale and storybook. But here's the one thing that our anxious folks, like you said earlier, are not going to like,

it takes time. Relationships and real love and that rider die doesn't happen after three weeks because you spend every night together. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And that is something. I could not agree with you more.

Amen. Like, and that's, I think something that we just need to fucking get over. Because like we're trying so hard to speed it up. And we just end up shooting ourselves in the foot. It's like, guys,

it takes time. It just takes time. And what a beautiful thing because all relationships that you engage in friendships, platonic, romantic career. whatever, professional, you're learning about yourself more in every relationship that you have. So this isn't just about the relationship going somewhere. That's something else that can be helpful. It's also like, what am I learning about myself in this new dynamic that's just

presented itself? It doesn't even, maybe it doesn't need to go somewhere. Maybe this person just came into your life so you could learn something about yourself that you didn't know before. And I know we all want a relationship and that's totally normal and human. It's biology. We're here to like be in relationships and procreate. You know, it's also being in love with somebody who is a good person is the best feeling in the world. Yeah. It's holding both.

It's allowing ourselves to have that longing. So to long for that, to validate that, to acknowledge that and also recognize what you're saying, which is it takes time, stay in your lane, make sure, you know, that you haven't completely abandoned your life for the stranger. Yeah. And it's funny. Somebody had asked a question. I already, in my head, I was like, I knew the answer.

But they asked, are they avoidant? are they just not that into you? And I was like, I'd like to know you are, because I, in my mind, my initial response was like, does it matter? But I'd still. Yeah, that's, yeah. But I'd be curious to hear like, I think more because one thing a lot of people have been asked me is like, can you talk more about avoidance and like what they experience?

So I'd like to see professionally with what you've dealt with, especially with couples, if you can have any kind of interjection in that so we can get a little bit more understanding. We know the anxious, but let's maybe learn and have compassion for somebody who's avoided. Yeah. Well, that was also. initial reaction was just don't waste your time. Like it just, it doesn't matter what's going on. But if we're, if we're going to analyze the avoidant,

I think that like what I was saying earlier about dissociating, it's like you have to be feeling something to have your avoidant defense mechanism activated. Interesting. So I don't know what they're feeling. It would be impossible for me to know that. But if an avoidance defense mechanism is activated, it's because they're feeling something,

whether they're feeling something for you, whether they're feeling something that's just, they're just being triggered. I don't know what they're feeling, but something's happening. And you can't really do anything about it. And I think that that's what it comes down to. And that's probably why your initial reaction.

action was it doesn't really matter. And I, and, you know, I was just talking about this today, actually, with someone, you know, they could, they could, they, maybe they really do love you. Maybe they really do think about you all the time, but you deserve somebody who's going to go out of their way to make you feel like they want you in their life. And, and, by the way, an avoidant can do that. Somebody can be avoided and still go and still make you feel like they want you in their life. And that's what I meant earlier about, you know, if an avoidant works on themselves goes to therapy and figures out how to even communicate in the moment, hey, I want you in my life, but I'm realizing I'm scared right now. So that's why I'm shutting down.

I just need like five hours to go do something else and then I'll come back. That makes you feel loved and cared for. The person doesn't need to stop being avoided for you to feel loved by them. They just need to understand their avoidance a little bit more so they can communicate it to you and work towards secure attachment. A thousand percent. I mean, even, yeah, like, it's communication. It's like it's really just knowing yourself or even sometimes my boyfriend are looking.

I'm like, I'm triggered. And it's being able to say, I'm feeling anxious right now because I have the cognitive awareness. The other question I got a lot was a lot of people saying, like, how can I make my avoidant open up to me? How can I get them to open up to me? Yeah. I'll let you take this.

Well, I mean, like I was saying, you know, you can't make any. anyone do anything, but if you're in a relationship with someone who is avoidant and you feel like there is an equal investment, I'll start there. Because if there's not, you're just going to end up chasing, chasing, chasing. But if you feel like there's an equal investment, somebody is willing and wanting to do the work, I'll tell you it's not going to get them to open up. And that's putting your anxious shit on them. Yeah.

That's going to shut them down. more. So in those moments when they're shutting down, I think the best thing that you can actually do for both of you is step back, check your own internal landscape, figuring out what's going on for you, figure out what you need. And you can say that to them. And if they can't give that to you in the moment, you can, it can be a dialogue. Like, okay, if you can't give that to me right now, I'm going to need us to circle back in 24 hours. And then you can kind of give them the space while also holding your needs. Yeah.

But, you know, so that might encourage them to, to open up and to come back, but there, but you can't make somebody open up. You can't make anyone do the work. I'm glad you said it because I'm like, I'm a broken record at this point where it's like, my first thing will be, okay, put them aside. What are your needs? What is it that you need from this right now? So if you have somebody, can you express yourself to this person?

Because I, we've all been there. I think every single person has experienced somebody that, and I've watched it on love after lockup. So if anybody wants to see it, there's this, but there's this one couple and it's like, oh, I know. Yeah, I'm in it. But it's like, there's this one couple. And the guy, it's like every time the girl even says something that bothers him or bothers

her of like, his phone was ringing. He was being dicey. And she said, who's calling you? You know, you're obviously making this annoying. And of course, what did you do? This is why I can never open up to you. And this is why I don't feel safe because you always. And it's like, of course, straight up deflection and throwing it onto the other person.

Sure enough, he walked away. into the interview going, you know, I wasn't telling her the truth. There was all this stuff. And it's like, and then what did she do? The girl beat herself up and it was what did I do? Watching it play out. I was like, you poor thing. I wanted to come and hug her.

But it's like, this is where not knowing your own needs and boundaries to play in because it's like, is my side of the street clean or did I say something inappropriate out of line that would cause this person to have this reaction? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, even if you did say something, right, this is what a lot of anxious people do. Even if you did say something anxious or you made a, God forbid, you made a fucking mistake. God forbid. Like that God forbid you are human. You know, that's not a reason for somebody to shut you out. You know, and that's the other thing that I think anxious people start believing about themselves.

They start believing that they have to be fucking perfect if they're going to be loved or in a relationship. And if they're not perfect, then they're going to be. shut out, ignored, blocked, abandoned, because that's what historically has happened, because if you're dating someone who's avoidant, they also tend to deflect. Yes. And again, not to, I mean, everyone's deflecting in this dynamic, but they're deflecting in that way. And then the anxious person is like, oh my God, then it's all my fault. I take all the blame. Let me fix it. But it off on the problem. I can be the solution. And, you know, and that's the other thing. The, the anxious person then starts to really embody being a victim. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, being, well, being both.

I guess, but also being a perpetrator. Because if they're the ones who caused the attachment bond to be threatened, then they still have some semblance of control over whether or not they can heal it. Yeah. Oh, 100%. No, I'm glad you said that because it's true. It's like, I'll get that word. And I'm like, how much, you know, it takes two people, right?

It's like you can't own everything. It can't all be your folks. No. So, yeah, like you said, I'm glad you said that. It's like, oh, so that gives you being a human and saying, hey, I don't know, I'd love it if you planned a date for us because I don't feel like you're putting as much equal interest. A normal fucking cognizant adult would go, huh, well, what make you think that? Oh, you know, I've noticed in the last three weeks you haven't

planned a date. Sorry, you're right. No, let me plan a date. You're right. I can see how that might make you feel. Right. Versus, hey, I've noticed this or like, oh, I don't know, something simple as like, hey, can you call me? Just something very basic. And all of a sudden it explodes. And it's, my needs are too much. And I'm like, no, no, no, again, where did you learn that? Like, just because you had a caregiver that when you expressed yourself, they shut down, doesn't mean that now that's all you're deserving. But if that's all you think you deserve and that's all you think you're worth,

getting it coming back to the self-esteem, well, then yeah, you'll just keep, you'll just keep allowing that into your life. But the number one thing I do see, I know you might have Freudianly said victim, but I do see that a lot of like it's very, woe is me. It just keeps happening to me, not for me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm kidding me poorly and it's like. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The anxious attached person holds both archetypes of the victim and perpetrator and uses them as, as weapons. That's the shadow side of being the anxious attached person, right?

Because when it's, when it's convenient to be the victim to get them to stay, you're the victim. When it's convenient to be the perpetrator and blame yourself for everything, you're the perpetrator, right? I like that. And what would you say would be that shadow archetype for? the avoidant. What does that kind of look like? Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I think, I think both, but in different ways, right? I think it because, um, I mean, the avoidance person,

their main goal is to not be invested in whatever, um, it's to protect themselves from, from intimacy and from getting hurt. So, man, I don't know, actually. I need to think about this. We'll circle back. We're going to do. I would love to have you on for a part two, because I'm sure I'm going to get more questions,

but great, we'll cue that one. And let's see. I'm going to choose one last. Yeah, let's do one last question before we kind of break it off. Okay. So somebody asked how to be emotionally available and break the cycle of over-analyzing to run away. So I think this person is coming at it from a more avoidance stance. So kind of we've answered this,

but I'd like maybe a recapitulation of maybe for both people. If you're noticing that pattern, what is the first thing you can do to break the cycle? If you're emotionally unavailable. Seems like it had to be, how to be emotionally available and break the cycle with over-analyzing to run away. Okay, of over-analyzing to run away.

So kind of using like, like, overthinking as a way to just, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like now I'm kind of, I guess, repeating myself, but it really truly is about actually full circle, self-worth and like coming back to your center because if you're over-analyzing something, it's because this other person has now been put in the center of your orbit. Yeah. You know, and it's like that's obsessive thinking. It's a rumination.

And when we're in those places, we're anxious. And when we're anxious, we're afraid. And when we're afraid, it's because we've lost touch with ourselves. And as you were pointing out earlier, if you've known this person for like two months, there's really, you're not being abandoned by your father. You're not being abandoned by your caretaker. This is a stranger. Like you were saying earlier, like you don't even know their middle name. Right. So if you're overthinking to that degree, it's probably because you've given this person way more power than you're giving yourself. And you need to find a way to come back and give that power back to yourself. no, I love that. But that's above-taxed. I don't know if that answers the question, but okay. I think so when I first read that, that was the first thing I thought was like, again, like, yeah, because overthinking to me is like, I don't trust myself.

So I have to think of everything else. Exactly. Right. Perception of control. If I can, because I used to do that, I'd be like, okay, let me map out how all of this could go. And then I'll know. And then sure enough, it always happened to where like, it was never the way that I had mapped out. I thought of every thought.

So I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I think trusting yourself reconnecting with yourself and like, I don't know, maybe just. Yeah. Right. And instead of focusing so much on what this other person is doing, thinking and feeling, you got to come back to what you're doing thinking and feeling. Yeah. I'm like, it's not about why do they do this. It's like, why do you keep allowing it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad we got to do this. This was such a fun conversation. Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. For anybody that I know you have some new things you have a book that came out.

And so we're going to link all of it in the show notes and everything so that people can support you. but where can they find you aside from that? They can find me on Instagram at Zoe Kirk Therapy. My book's called Self-Love and Action. They can find it on Amazon, Burns & Noble. They can just go to my Instagram, my website. And I'll have a course coming out in the making right now in a few months, 90 days to heal from heartbreak.

So stay tuned. Please let me know when that's live because we got a lot of people that ask so I can link that. I will. I totally will. Yeah, yeah. Sweet. Thanks. Awesome, Zoe. Well, and for everybody to know, I'll link the book, I'll link your Instagram, I'll link your website, so everything only in the show notes, they can find you, but just in case, at least now they know. Great. Great. Thanks, Zoe. Thank you.

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