The Sabrina Zohar Show - 33: What does a secure relationship look like, how to move to secure in dating and handle feeling ‘rejected' with Therapy Jeff!

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by Therapy Jeff to chat about what does a secure relationship look like, how to move to secure in dating and handle feeling ‘rejected.' Sabrina and Jeff also chat about what the 'spark' is in dating and the realities of being in a secure relationship. Shop Softwear NOW! 20% off your first order with code 'dothework' HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Gofundme.com. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Do the Work podcast. My name is Sabrina and I am your host. If you can hear it in my voice, I am fucking amped for this week's episode. We have Therapy Jeff. I've been counting down the days. I have been counting down the motherfucking days. I am just so over the moon.

Therapy Jeff is one of the most authentic and real people. Our conversation, as you can hear, we have a lot of fun. And we go over, what does it actually mean to be in a secure relationship? We dive into a little bit more on the attachment styles. what that looks like, how to date a little bit more healthy and secure, and what the spark actually is. And I love Jeff's honest, open, authentic response. And you know what? It makes us all feel a little bit more human that even a therapist or a dating coach like myself, we still have real fucking issues like the rest of us. So I'm so excited. I think you guys are going to love today's

episode. I'm going to link all of Jeff's information in the show notes for anybody who doesn't know who he is. And as always, if you want to work with me, everything will be in the link in the show notes. If you want a dating app audit, work one on one, ask me a question. anything you need. You guys always know I'm here. Same with the Facebook group. Don't forget to join the free support group, the Facebook group. Everything's in the link in show notes. And as always, if you guys want to get your cozies, do the work gives you 20% off software, which is my baby. And why I'm so big on promoting it is because it's my favorite clothing line and it's mine. So without further ado, let's get right on into honestly one of my favorite episodes and

I'm fucking amped. Hi, Jeff. Hi, how's it going? I'm good. How are you? I'm so excited to have you on do the work. Thank you. Yeah, of course. I'm good. I'm, I'm a little, uh, fisty. You know that, that feeling that you get, maybe like with your partner where you just sort of like want to pick a fight. That's where I am today. Oh, yay. Okay. Well, hopefully we can pick a fight not about something with us, but somebody else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, no, but overall, I'm doing pretty good. I'm having a good day and I'm happy to be here with you. Awesome. Well, for anybody who, I mean, almost everybody when I said your name knows who you are, but for anybody who, let's say, doesn't know who you are.

If you could just give us a little brief intro, I've been following you for a while. I fucking love you. So I am so stoked to have you. But I would just love a little intro for anybody who maybe doesn't have as much awareness around you. Of course. Yeah, no problem.

I'm a therapist. I've been a therapist for almost 20 years now. I routinely see individuals and couples. But when I see couples, I only see the fun couples, like the couples that are still in love. I don't want the couples that are like, have been together for 25 years, haven't fucked for five of them.

Don't talk to each other anymore. It's just like bad vibes. Get out of here, babe. Thank you, but no, thank you. Yeah, break up. I send those couples to other therapists that love to work on that shit. So the couples that are like newly dating or just got married premarital counting was like, it's like a really fun one because you're just like there's nothing.

It feels like there's not much wrong. You just like want to like get in there and be cute together in front of me. So I've been seeing those folks for almost 20 years. like I said, I got my degree in marriage family therapy, but I've been posting on TikTok and Instagram for next month. Well, I guess this month, since this episode's coming out in September, it's going to be officially two years since I started doing that. Yeah, I got really bored in the pandemic.

Well, it was like a year into the pandemic. I'd watched all 40 seasons of Survivor. Have you seen Survivor? I've seen not 40 fucking seasons, but I've seen it. Wow, you were bored. Okay. I was bored and that is the most amazing show I've ever seen. If you want to turn this podcast episode into me convincing you to watch Survivor,

I'm totally fine with doing that. I've done that successfully many times. But when I like watched all the Survivor episodes, I was like, I'm going to try to do something new. And like mental health and therapy was trending. Of course, during the pandemic. I was like, I'm going to hop on TikTok. I'm obsessed with this app anyways.

I'm going to start making content. And then like the fourth video I made went viral. And I was like, okay, this is what I'm doing now. Fuck yeah. I know it's so funny. Survivor, no, that's not my thing. But have you been a 90-day fiancé or a love-after lock-up person? I was dating someone during the pandemic and she was all about 90-day fiancé.

And that fucking show is bonkers. Do you understand, though, how many times, I'm sure you do, how many ways I can reference back. And I'm like, okay, so this couple 90-day fiance, because to me, like, which is going to bring us kind of segue into like the meat and potatoes of what we're going to talk about today, which like really is a secure relationship. Like what we all we all want and we all attain and this is like the life goal. But I think for a lot of people, myself included, like just so you know, my history was like, it was the poster child of anxious attachment style. And for years I thought I was alone. I never understood that this was first I didn't even know it was a thing until I like learned about it.

And I always just thought like I'm crazy. There's something wrong with me. I'm fucked up. I've got all these childhood issues. It's me. I couldn't date. And I dived into this journey of self-help and discovery and all these modalities and tools. And this is how I came to where I'm at. But does that mean I don't watch trash TV, not a shot? And so when I watch these shows, I see so much of this toxic behavior, especially with like the incessant texting and this creating this false sense of intimacy and having face times, but not actually spending time with this person, that it also makes me feel a lot more normal. I don't know about you, but. It does make me feel normal, huh? Right? A little bit. But I wanted to kind of kick it off.

now that we're kind of talking about this, like, to you as a seeing, you've seen 20 plus years of marriages, people that are working, people that aren't. What is a secure relationship? Like, how do you identify? What does that mean to you? Well, I'll tell you what I think a secure relationship looks like. And sometimes they can, okay, if we just sort of compare a secure to an insecure attack. So secure, you know, they're called the securely attached folks. And insecure is either anxious, avoidant, and then sometimes a disorganized attachment is what we might call it. Those are the insecure ones.

So if you have a secure attachment or relationship with your partner, if you have a problem, if there's like an issue that comes up between you two, typically that secure relationship will be like, oh, what would you look at that? Here's a problem. This is an issue. How are we going to change together? how can we adjust the system? What kind of compromises can we make in order to figure out how both of our needs are going to get mad or like some of our needs are going to get met and we're going to be really

happy about it? We're just sort of like focus on the like the system, the organism that you've created together and what changes do you all have to make? That's like a very secure attachment sort of thing. But if you're in an insecure attachment, anxious, avoid and disorganized and there's an issue that comes up, oftentimes it's like, oh shit, here's an issue. Okay. So, this is how I need you to beat my needs and good luck on meeting your own and that's that. Fucking perfectly said. Thank you for that. And it's true. Like I for years was insecurely attached. And I also think it's funny that we were talking about this earlier, but like privately, but I think a lot of people are using attachment styles like horoscopes now of like, oh, I'm anxious. Like I've even like I do my coaching and all of people come and they're like, so I'm an anxiously attached person and I'm dating and avoidance.

And I'm like, okay. Can we? I'm like, okay. So besides for the buzzword. What else do you think that means? You know, like? Yeah, totally. And it's also like we're on a fucking spectrum. Like sometimes we're anxious in one relationship and we're not in the other and we feel really secure in these. And so a lot of it depends on the type of interaction or the toxicity maybe that you have with the person. And, you know, if you're coming in and you're talking to me and you're finding you're like trying to get counseling with me,

I'm going to spend so much time on your relationships like in your childhood and what your relationship was. with your family and with your parents, that's going to tell me a lot. Because usually the anxious attachment stuff, avoiding all the attachment stuff can be like brought right back back to the family. Although that's not to say that you can't develop it in your adulthood when you start dating people in the dating scene. Like that could kind of drive you a little bonkers. So that'll create some anxiety or avoidance as well.

Oh, 100 fucking percent. I always laughed like, I remember I dated a guy and he was, I mean, come to find out. He was wildly avoided. And I remember when we dated and I was like, oh, you know, like tell me about your child, like your parents and things like that. And he's like, yeah, I had a great child with no issues. And I'm like, okay, sure, yeah, really? None.

Yeah. And then it's like, yeah, he's like, yeah, my mom had like a bunch of boyfriends and would always kind of like go out and leave me at home. My dad was a raging alcoholic, but he was fine. Like, he fell asleep at some baseball games, but no big deal. And I'm just sitting here like, oh, okay, you're doing what I used to do. Oh, you've normalized this. You think that this is, everybody deals with this, right?

I don't have any issues. And I'm like, I'm not trying to put a scarlet letter on your fucking chest. But what I am trying to do is say, maybe if we like, I don't know, lift the veil a little bit to understand, you learned this behavior somewhere. RBC Training Ground has discovered potential in over 20,000 Canadian athletes and counting. Your story could be next. If you've got the drive, they'll help you find your path to the Olympics. Let's see what you've got.

Sign up for free at rbc trainingground.ca. Yeah, exactly. You learned in your childhood in order to sort of like survive your childhood emotionally. You know, like a lot of times we might be more insecure, anxious if we're like getting very inconsistent attention and love from our parents. Or if our parents are alcoholics or workaholics or drug abusers, you don't quite know exactly what kind of person you're going to get so you become like very hypervigilant. Usually the, if I, if you're an avoidant, I'll ask those clients like, oh yeah, tell me some

memories from your childhood. They'd be like, I don't remember anything. There's like, yeah, I think it was fine. I was pretty okay. Have no zero memories, which feels very normal to me. I'm like, okay, well, you know, oftentimes if you're avoiding, that's like the way you avoid it's like not having any memories. You just have to like kind of dissociate, go numb, be in a fugue state or something. And that's how you survive childhood. And it's the, have you, I don't know if you've experienced this. Tell me what you. So, I don't usually spend too long in my comment sections. It can be like a little nutty in there with like the arguments that people get into.

But there's a real difference when I make a video, a piece of content about anxiously attached people and avoidantly attached people. Because the anxious attachers, like they see the video, they identify with it and they're like, yes, thank you. I feel seen. And then the avoidant ones, the those, the. anxious people go in the avoidant videos and there's like, you fucking suck. You are the devil. I hate you. And the avoidance are just like, I'm not going to comment.

Fuck this. Like they don't even give a shit. You know what I mean? Or I'll see the avoidant will be like, and here's the reason we're like this. And you're like, thank you. And that's kind of, I'm glad you said that because that, first of all, do I avoid the comment section like the plague? Yes, I do.

Because it's not good. I wish people understood like, realistically, like, I'm a brown girl in comparison to like what most people are. the amount of hatred I get. Like I don't talk about race, religion. I don't do no, no, no, no, because it's not worth it. And so to most folks, I'm like, I always say, I'm like, I'm not ignoring your DMs. I'm not ignoring stuff.

It's just like I, my mental health can't go there with the inundation of shit. What I've seen, it's like, I did one of saying like, we've villainized the avoidant, as if they're just these fucking awful human beings that are like picking you out and being like, there they are. I'm going to fuck their day up. And I was trying to say, like, they're humans like the rest of us. They just, oh, I don't know, it manifests differently. So as an anxious, you go outward.

You're very, I need this. I need it. It's a different way. And as an avoidant, you might go inward, dismissive or disorganize, whatever. It's kind of different dynamics. I'm like, but at the same time, fear of rejection, fear of intimacy, fear of abandonment. It's like, there's a lot of the core root issues. But I will always get, like, somebody trying to clap back of like, you're justifying avoidance hurt people and you're justifying this behavior.

And I'm like, spoiler alert, as somebody who is now incredibly secure in a relationship. relationship, like feeling real fucking groovy, have never felt so good and all of these things. I've dated anxious folks as being one. When I say the amount of overwhelm, like you feel like when you see their name on your phone, like I would literally cringe. I would hide my phone because I had one guy, he was a stage five clinger who would text me so many times in call. I was getting dysregulated and I was constantly on edge to where I would like snap if

somebody said something because it was just so much that I never felt. like I was good enough. I can feel similar when I date somebody who's like very anxiously attached. However, I am typically magnetized to anxiously attached folks. So sometimes, sometimes I like ask myself this question and I also ask clients this question. I'm just like, okay, we can try to do some work so that maybe you're not always going to be magnetized to an anxious person.

And we can like try to figure out how you can be more secure and find more secure folks out there. Like that's a real possibility. Or if you think that your own. always going to be, like, attracted to anxiously attached people, then how can you deal with it? How can you have compassion for them? What do you need to do? And also, like, what is it doing for you? So one of the reasons I can be really magnetized to an anxiously attached person and also get similarly overwhelmed sometimes, like you just mentioned, I still feel, I feel needed. I feel of value.

Like, they need me so much. That relationship with that anxious attached person feels like the most secure relationship I'll ever be in because I'm just like, you're never going to leave me. I mean, I'm maybe not thinking that consciously. Maybe I'm maybe I'm not. But like, I'm just like there's there's no worry whatsoever. So I'm also interested in the people that like are attracted to those anxiously attached because they're getting so much out of that. Being with the stage five clinger sucks and also there's a lot of security in that. Yeah, like talk about like the false sense of security. I'd be like they're not going anywhere. It's like their bodies are not going to. you're right. But I would, so interestingly enough, I did a poll on Instagram of like, you know,

you saw, what questions do you want me to ask? The number one question, mama, mama counted. I did. I spent a long fucking time going through comments because apparently I have nothing else to do. And the number one question I got was how to tell someone is secure versus avoidant early on in dating. Now, for me, what I got, the first kind of message I got now, a lot of the questions I got, you could feel the anxiety. You know what I mean? Like, you could feel that people are feeling anxious and I get it. But what I kind of got from this is like a reality that I think a lot of people don't really want to accept is like you can't avoid getting hurt and dating. It can't be like that we're going to have this blueprint of, okay, here are the five things to look out for. And if you see this

run for the hills because people are nuanced. But nonetheless, I would be curious to hear from you if there is anything that comes to mind for folks that are out there dating, things that they can look out for or if there's anything that comes to mind for you on how you really can tell the difference earlier on. Well, I want to first like reinforce what you said because I also, when somebody asks me that question, when a client comes in with that sort of question, I'm usually just like, okay, so it sounds like you don't ever want to feel pain. How can you avoid pain? Which I would love to make it so that you never had to feel pain ever again. I don't want to fucking feel pain ever again too. So a lot of times you're going to start

with how can you tolerate the feeling of pain? How can you accept? Whatever, like all that stuff. Although that's not what people are here. That's not why people are listening to this podcast episode. They're like, wait, does it deal with it? It's like, there you go. Good luck. Godspeed. Yeah, exactly.

One of the things, though, that I think makes it really difficult, though, which I'd like to know your feedback on, is that like, I think if you're avoidant or insecure, if you have some sort of like insecure attachment, it's incredibly hard to tell at the beginning sometimes because it's like the honeymoon period. and you have like your best behavior on, you know, typically. And there's like the honeymoon period, like a therapist will call the honeymoon period, the mutual positive projection period because you're just like projecting all the positivity onto each other.

And any little red flag or imperfection or flutter things that you should like look out for, like your brain does not see it. Like you're only focused. You're only, you're just like have these rose tinted glasses on. And you know what they say about rose tinted glasses? all the red flags are just flags when you have rose tinting glasses on, right? And so you can't, you can't really tell. So, like, the next place I go, which still isn't answering this very important question,

is how can you forgive yourself if you didn't see it at first? Because I think that like six months, two years, ten years in, if you're like, oh, no, I'm dating and avoidant and I had no idea what the fuck is wrong with me, well, you had rose-colored glasses on. You were like mutually positive projecting all over each other. that totally makes sense. And that honeymoon period is super fucking important to try to only or mainly see the positive things

because that builds foundation, that builds trust. So eventually once you get out of the honeymoon period and you start to see who this monster really is, or you start to see like their flaws and imperfections, you can be like, well, we have a good foundation. Let's like fuck around and see what happens here. So there's also kind of like, if a relationship doesn't work out,

A lot of times we try to like paint this story or tell a story of like, I should have known. So that it'll like give us more control. Be like, oh, okay, I should have known. So next time I won't make the mistake. And that's another place that this like question is coming from. You know what I mean? So, okay, let's try to answer the question though. I was like, otherwise I'm going to be like, I'll ask you another fucking question.

And then here we are. No, I want to try to answer this question. So here's an answer that also my. be slightly annoying. Like, what does your gut say? Because a lot of times, like, you might, we might not be able to be like, here's like five signs that you should definitely look out for. But a lot of times your gut is telling you whether they are like available or not

available or anxious or avoidant or something like that. So what is your gut say? But also, like, does it seem like they're tuned in and tapped into you? When you tell them about like an emotional thing or a vulnerable thing, can they like connect with you while you're talking to them about it. Does it feel like they have good, pretty good empathy and sympathy for the experience, your emotional experiences that you're going through? Do you feel connected to them or does it feel like they're just sort of not quite there? You know, like do they feel consistent? Does it seem like they really care about you? Do they

remember important things? Like, how connected are they actually? Because if they're more avoidant, then they're just going to seem a little aloof. They're going to seem like they don't quite care. you're going to start getting those pings inside of you that like something is off and something is wrong. So yeah, with my clients, I'm usually just like, what is your intuition say? Let's kind of like dissect it together. You can usually tell if you pay attention. The Volkswagen Atlas is a 7C powerhouse that actually makes sense for real life. It's got cargo space for all your gear, the dogs, and even half of your rec league soccer team. And under the hood, a two-liter turbocharged TSI engine that

hauls up to 5,000 pounds. The seven seat Atlas, you deserve more space. Visit bw.ca to learn more. S-UBW, German engineered for all. I'm glad you said that because I remember when I was dating the guy, the one with the

issues, he was the guy I dated right before I met my current partner. And I was going chasing after, oh, but he texts me every day. Okay, but he texts me every single day and he wants to see me all the time. And it was like, but in my gut, I knew that when I would try to connect with him. Like I remember telling my friend, I was like, yeah, I did a touch base.

And she was like, what do you do a touch base? And I was like, it would have been like a month that we'd been dating? And I said, so like, how are you feeling what's coming up? And she's like, you had to like actually touch base with him? Like he didn't, you guys just didn't have these conversations. And at first I was like, what's the big deal? Now that I have the partner that I have who's fucking awesome. It's true.

I'm like, I don't have to touch base with him. We're constantly talking. We're constantly engaging. He's beyond secure. But I wanted to actually, because I would like to hit on something that you said that was really, really important earlier about the honeymoon stage. Because oftentimes we're seeing, especially all over fucking social media and all of these things. And like, my boyfriend doesn't listen to the podcast. God bless him. He's just like, I want, I don't need to hear it. He's like, I hear you talk enough. So this is kind of my Miley Cyrus Hannah Montana moment where I can kind of say anything. But realistically speaking, so we're moving in together. He's moving into my apartment next month. And then we're going to get our house a couple months later. And I realized this.

just literally this morning when I was talking to my friend, I was like, oh, fuck, I have an issue where every time I'm with somebody, I've had like four major relationships in my adult life. I'm in my 30s now. And this is by far the most like actually like, this is, this is somebody I'm very much taking seriously. And every time around the nine month mark, all of a sudden, when it's time to like talk about moving in together and that happens, I start to get this pang of, oh my God, I don't think I'm not into this person. Oh my God. Did I go off my anxiety? Did I just want a boyfriend so bad that I just overlooked? And to this day, I've always broken up with the person after about 10 months or we just move in together and shortly thereafter. And I think on the outside, everybody sees, we call him tech guy.

He doesn't like his name being used. God bless him. I mean, he knows TikTok and he's like not doing it. So sure. So tech guy. So now we're at that point. And I had this moment this morning where I was like, oh, my God. And I realized like, oh, the intimacy is starting to happen.

And I had this moment of is this person. for me. Am I doing the right thing? Oh my God, wait. Now, but he's not who I thought I was going to be with and he's not this version of who I thought he was going to be with. And I had to stop and I was like, the honeymoon phase is starting to fade. Where now, like you had said, where I was like, but now what I had to stop and I was like, but how does he handle things? I woke up the other day, anxious as fuck, just being in my head about something and I kind of snapped at him. And instead of react, he grabbed me and he hugged me and he said, I'm here. What do you need for me? And he was like, I can feel that you need something. And he was like, how can I support you through this? I remember

just looking and I was like, what did you just say? to me. And like, sometimes I'm looking and I'm like, are you real? But I wanted to kind of shed light on the fact that like you could be in something super secure and super healthy while also saying, wait a minute, am I having other core beliefs come up? Oh my God, wait, is this right for me? What's going on? Like, it doesn't mean that just because you met somebody with this arbitrary secure title on them that all of a sudden, all of those anxieties are going to go away and you're just like never going to feel any of this again. And it's very much the real thing. But to your point, when I had that moment and I stopped and I said,

but how do we handle things? And I was like, wait a minute, this person's fucking incredible. We talk, we communicate, we handle issues. We don't fight. We talk through things. We don't say mean things. And I was like, now that, that is why I'm like, no, we're going to do this. And no, we're going to move in together.

And we're going to, so hard, you're going to fucking push through and you're going to try. Because I think, I think a lot of folks that feel, they feel like they're broken or there's something wrong with them. And I'm never going to find anybody. And it's like, even if you do find somebody secure, it doesn't mean that all of this goes away. No. Yeah, exactly.

it doesn't mean that all of it goes away. And it actually kind of makes room for other issues to come up, like other more important issues, like intimacy issues that you need to work through. So if you're constantly, if you have a pattern, you're ending in relationships at nine or ten months, okay, if there's something going on there, you're having like a little freak out or being a little sabotagey or all of a sudden, like changing your mind about something. So now for you to get to that point and be mindful and thoughtful enough about this, this thing, this pattern could come up right now, but I'm going to deliberately do something different about it. And instead of like completing that pattern, I'm going to have like a healing experience. That is so incredibly important. And you just

started that healing experience by being like, no, okay, I can tell him having a little bit of a freak out. I'm feeling kind of anxious. But I'm going to pay attention to the good things, the good way that we communicate, the healthy way that we attach to each other so I can like let that go. But that's going to like leave room for even more like intimacy issues that maybe haven't been dealt with that are that's going to come up. And and you two are going to like have these what the therapists might say is corrective experiences. So if somebody has like abandonment issues, eventually they get past the honeymoon period and they're like, oh no, I'm going to be left. I know I'm going to. And then your partner is just like, hey, I'm not going anywhere. I'm right

here and they sort of like shake some sense into you. There's suddenly to be a part of you that wants to bail, but there's this bigger part of you that wants to go ahead and connect and do something and choose like sometimes you have to choose between like harmony, which you made that choice in that moment of I'm going to choose harmony instead of chaos or instead of excitement or instead of drama. And sometimes the allure of drama and chaos and excitement is so alluring that you're just like, fuck it. I'm going to leave this securely attached relationship. And you do you, fine.

If you, that's what you, then, okay, I'll support you. But you're probably eventually going to get to the point where you'd rather choose harmony and stability and security that still can be exciting, but not as dramatic maybe. No, and I think 100%. I think that's why, to me, at least what I find with a lot of people that's like, if you're super anxious and you're always going for the emotionally. the available, unavailable person and you're going for the avoidant. And it's like the up and the highs feel high and the lows feel low as opposed to

healthy equals boring. It's like, no, my nervous system's really fucking calm though. She's loving this right now. It's like anytime there's a peak, the valley comes in of like, okay, we're going to balance this out. But it's interesting because, never mind. Oh, no. That is what I was going to ask you because you kind of mentioned it was like the spark.

That like wanting that. I think a lot of people. I am not a big fan of like chasing the spark or chasing that feeling because I think it's fleeting. It's not compatibility. But I think I'd love to hear kind of your thoughts on like if somebody is constantly chasing the spark or chasing this. You know, there's no chemistry. I don't feel this. I don't feel this connection off the bat.

Like after one or two dates, they're already out. I'd like to know if there is something deeper there besides obviously like, okay, well, yeah, you know, you're chasing this feeling and all. But like anything that you've seen in your time that goes a little deeper, what your thoughts or even on the spark. Well, I'm that guy. I'm chasing the spark. You know what?

I appreciate the honesty. Yeah. I mean, there's, and so, you know, I chase that spark in my teens and in my 20s. And then in my 30, 30, 31, I found somebody and there wasn't a lot of spark. And there wasn't like a ton of chemistry. It was a different kind of like spark and chemistry, a little bit more subdued, more stable, secure. And it felt like a real. adult a relationship. It was just like, oh, I'm out of my 20s now. I'm going to stop being chaotic.

That was a lot of fun and very upsetting at certain times. And I had so much like heartbreak when I was like looking for that spark. And I was good at creating that spark and finding that spark and then flaming out. And then I met Kate. And then we got married a couple years later. And then I was married to her for almost my entire 30s. And it was really nice and very sweet and very stable and secure. But it was kind of missing like a little bit of that spark that I needed. It just sort of like we couldn't really like connect in this way. And I'm not even saying like sexy way. It's more of like an emotionally intimate way. So that was a bummer. And we divorced right before, like in 2019, right before the pandemic.

And then I got out of that marriage. And I was like, feed me those fucking sparks. I was so chaotic. Yes. Oh, my God. I got on hinge and Bumble and I was day. This was pre-therapy, Jeff. But I was like a mess.

I couldn't admit it either. Like I fooled myself into thinking that this is a very good time for me to date multiple people at the same time. There's nothing wrong with this at all. It turned very messy. I do not recommend. I should have taken some time off after eight, nine, ten year relationship and marriage. But that spark usually, like for me and for a lot of the clients that I talk to, it comes from this place of just sort of like insecurity. I need you to complete me. I want you to like take me over. This like chaotic roller coaster ride is so exciting and so enthralling.

And like I don't want to think about work. I just want to like do this thing. And it's usually like I'm filling a void. There's something inside of me like, you know, mom didn't hug me enough and dad rarely played catch with me sort of bullshit. Like, like, I'm just like, I'm like, I'm starving for it and I can get it in this very dramatic way. That's all very make-believe. I'm projecting a bunch of shit onto her and she's projecting a bunch of shit onto me. And it's not actually a real relationship. And it feels addictive. There's like this addictive sort of codependent quality to it. and it feels kind of dangerous and exciting. So a lot of time, the spark is coming from a place of, like,

you're not feeling filled up. There's a void inside of you. You might want to go to therapy to check that out. But there's also, like, it's because of Hollywood. It's because of movies. It's because of, like, TV and books and bullshit like that. It's because of, like, society, like, has told us that there needs to be some sort of special spark.

But you're not, like, eventually the spark fades. Like, there should be some sort of spark in chemistry in the honeymoon, typically. and then it goes away. And then you get the chance to have like a real relationship with somebody. Now you're getting that chance or it's sort of like, we call it like integrated love

where you have like all the lovely things about them and then there's like some annoying things, some imperfections, maybe a red flag or two, but you love them anyways or you love them in spite of that or you think they're red flags or imperfections are kind of endearing or whatever.

So then you also have to start like creating some of that spark because that novelty sort of wears off. So, like, it's funny. You talked about, like, 90-day fiancé. 90-day fiancé, married at first sight. Like, those are, like, some garbage, like, not even well-produced reality shows.

And then you watch, like, The Bachelor franchise or something. And that is just, like, beautiful. And The Bachelor knows how to create that buck and spark, man. They got you, like, traveling to the most beautiful places in the world. You're naked, bungee jumping. You're doing cave diving together. Like you can't not fall in love. Those producers know how to make you fall in love.

And there's a proximity effect. And you're competing against other people for your person, you know. But it's not that bad an idea when you're trying to create the spark after the honeymoon period to like take some guidance. Like go traveling. Go do things that are dangerous a little bit. Like get out of your comfort zone. And that's how you create it. So the spark oftentimes comes from a place of like, I don't feel fulfilled, fill me up.

And it's not very healthy. And I appreciate even that you were honest to be like, I'm into it. But I love it. I'm still going for it. If you want to get into a complicated, fucked up chaotic relationships, slide into my DMs. I was supposed to say at Therapy, Jeff. Listen, don't get me. Don't get me wrong.

Do I? Did I love a fucking one of those sexy ass narcissist that was super charming on date one, where you're literally like, I'll never forget calling my mom from the bathroom. I remember the guy I meant right before I was with my. apart, like at the same time. And you just, I called my mom in the bathroom. She's my best friend. And I was like, I'm fucked.

I was like, oh my God. I haven't felt this for anybody in so long. And it's like, and sure enough, three days later, the guy ended it. And he was like, I'm sorry, I can't do this. I'm not ready. And it's like, you want to go over the spark. Enter your own risk. Go ahead.

Have fun. Go fucking chase that shit all day if you want. But that might, that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be compatible. That doesn't necessarily mean that there's going to be a long-term relationship here. So if we're going for secure, I just. It makes me sad, like, when I have friends or anybody that, like, I had my one friend. And he was like, yeah, she was nice, didn't feel a spark. And I was like, did you have a good time?

Yeah, she was super cool. It had a lot in common. And I'm like, maybe going to another date. No, no, no. I didn't feel the spark. And I'm like, see, that's what sucks. That does suck. And the thing is, like, if you do get into that relationship or isn't like, it isn't

super sparky, you can actually develop a ton of trust and safety and security. And it's those relationships actually where, like, I've. done like the most adventurous, freaky, sexy shit with them. Because like we're so safe together. So I get to tell them all about my fantasies that I've never told anybody else that feel super safe. And they get to tell me theirs. And there's so much trust building that can happen.

And that can be very sparky. It's just a different type of spark that's actually like incredibly healthy and more longer term. You know what I mean? Oh, totally. I'm doing that now. My partner, like, we'll do stuff. And I'm like, I'll even catch myself moments just thinking.

thinking about him and smiling. And I'm like, see, that's, that's kind of more what I would want versus that anxiety of when you think about them, your heart drops. You're like, yeah, because I don't know what I'm going to fucking hear from them again. Exactly. But I do want to ask, since I know that we're kind of, unfortunately, coming down to the end of this. But I do want to hit on something that a lot of people are feeling right now is like how to

handle, like, we've kind of gone over. Okay, we know, like, really what a secure relationship looks like. Obviously, just for anybody, we haven't said this, but I'm going to go ahead and say it for us. Yes, any insecure attachment can become secure. It's not, you were not a fixed fucking thing, but just for argument's sake. Rejection, though. I'm getting it, I mean, day in a day.

I'm sure you hear it all the time, fucking every day. And you're dating too. So you're in the trenches as well of like, how do I not take rejection personally? How do I handle this? Because like, I think this kind of ties into like, you don't want to go, you know, you want to date and you don't want to get hurt. And it's like, well, that's not realistic. So how can we help those out there that are feeling it's so personal against them that

it's like there's something wrong with them, like to be able to cope a little bit better. Yeah. Before I answer that direct, good question. What there's, there was a time where I was getting rejected. This was in my like later 20s. And there was a time where I was getting more rejected than I had ever gotten rejected before. And I was like, what the fuck is going on here?

Like, why am I getting, I'm going on like a date or two, maybe three and then it ends. And I have no idea why. And I did this thing. And I want to know if. you've ever done it or if you would even approve of anyone doing it where I was just like, I'm going to ask, I asked three or four of the people that I want on date. So I was just like, why? Why did you reject me? I'm going to like not take it personally. I'm going to try my best not take it personally. I'm going to not ask any follow up question. So I'm not going to make you feel weird about it.

I'm just going to like receive this information. I'm only going to read it when I'm like emotionally stable enough to read it. And I got some really. good feedback. Yeah. And the feedback, like, was mostly like, so I was going after, I was, like, very attracted to a certain type of woman in my, like, later 20s. And those women were typically attracted to not me. They were, like, usually attracted to, like, big, mussely dudes that were kind of broie and

strong. And I'm like, I'm like this slender guy that's, like, emotional and vulnerable and kind of dry and witty or something. They wanted like a fucking man, like a stereotypical, whatever. And so they would be like, you're a little kind of feme for me. Or like you're just not like. And I was like, oh, there's nothing I can do about that. I like that about me.

I think that my sensitivity is actually attractive to the right people. Like, I should be going after people that like are more. You know what I mean? So that's just like, have you ever done that? Would you ever do that? Actually, as you said it, I was like, yes. I have. I had the same thing.

My late 20s when I lived in New York, it was a string of one hit wonders. I remember telling my therapist, I'm like, what the flying fuck? And I started doing that. I said, listen, I'm just curious for my own growth. Is there any feedback that you'd give to me so that I can implement this moving forward? And what was great about it was kind of to your point, it made it a lot less personal. Like for them to say, you know, like one guy, he was like, honestly, he's like, you're fucking awesome. And he was like, I just am really into blondes and I'm just not turned on by a brunette.

And I was like, okay, well, I can't really. That's what I'm dealing with. Another guy, he was like, I'm not. He was like, you know, hearing the way that you talk about things. he was like, I can tell, I'm not going to be able to satisfy you and I'm not going to make you happy. One guy, it was my sexual proclivities. Like, I'm fucking kinky as shit. And I like, we'll talk about that.

I'll talk about sex early on. What it allowed me to realize was, oh, this does nothing to do with my worth. This wasn't that I'm not good enough. This wasn't any of that. It was really just you're a human who likes different things besides the human that's standing in front of you. But that doesn't mean I need to change or morph myself and to becoming the person that you want. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Exactly. And that's usually where I go when somebody. asks me this rejection question. It's just like, especially if it's like you get rejected on the apps or you get ghosted after a date or like, they don't even fucking know you. They have no idea who you are. They're projecting so much bullshit onto you. So like they're rejecting you, I guess, but like they're not actually rejecting who you really are and who your personality is. They're just sort of like being weird. They're feeling triggered. Like it just doesn't work out.

Who knows why they're like bailing? But they don't have enough information about you to really make an informed decision about like what you know, I mean. So there's that. All that being said, though, there is, and I've talked about this recently on a video, when you're out there on the apps and you're like messaging people and they don't message back, or you go on a first date and then you get dusted, or you go on three dates and it just doesn't quite work. And that happens over and over and over and over again. Those are micro-rejections, and they are just these papercuts that fucking suck. And they usually like eventually make you resentful, angry, waiting to be rejected once more. Like, they put you in a really negative space.

So now you're on the apps and you're like scanning for reasons for why people are going to reject you. You're like, already, you're like, you have this contempt and pessimism that just probably isn't a good look. And you're like self-fulfilling, prophecying these like rejections at that point. So you might also like need to take a break from the apps if that's what's going on. And I always, oh yeah, I mean, the apps, listen, I met my partner in an app, so I'm biased. I think it's a very normal way to meet. I've met plenty of people on them. And I think to me, I'm like, I also just had to really depersonalize that shit when it came

to the apps, because otherwise you can really get, you could fucking rabbit hole into rejection. But I had to also kind of call myself on my shit. And I was like, all right, Zohar, are you really being rejected? Like, do these people even know you? Rejection is also being judged. And I'm like, you're not being judged. You're not being ridiculed.

You're not being put down. This isn't dad that is fucking saying that. that you didn't do something good enough. This is just another human being saying, I think you're very lovely, but I do not want a life with you. And it's like, I also think we need to be cognizant of the fact

that we are meeting an inorganic amount of people, especially on dating apps, in a small confined time, it can't work out with everybody. And if my thing is, like when I get people that'll be like, oh, I got ghosted eight times last, like in a week.

And I'm like, first of all, can we talk about this? What do you mean ghosted eight times? That's hurting yourself esteem. No, you didn't get ghosted. That person just doesn't want to see you again. But it's like, Then I would kind of like you said, those micro things of like the little paper cuts,

then I would look and say, okay, is there a pattern here? Maybe on the date. Are you talking about your childhood traumas and the fact that like, yeah, your dad didn't play catch with you? Are you dumping about the fact that like you hate your job so much? Are you talking about all of the insecurities that you have? It's like we can learn from it as opposed to saying, oh, I knew that it's like, that's just reaffirming the core belief of like, opsee, they didn't want me because there's something

wrong with me as opposed to being like, how, how? am I showing up? Maybe can we take accountability, not blame, but accountability of also how we're showing up within conjunction with, like when I was dating in L.A., I was like, it's also fucking L.A. You know, like I was used to it being good luck. You might never see this person again. Yeah, exactly. I grew up in L.A. And I also dated. Yeah, I can't stand that fucking place. I fucking hate L.A. Oh, I do. I'm in San Diego now. It's so, fuck that place. Oh, I was in San Diego for two years. I went to San Diego State.

I really enjoyed it there. Nice. I love that. Thank you so much for being. This was like, seriously, one of the most fun conversations I've had. So thank you. Yeah, of course. Thank you for your vulnerability.

For anybody that wants to find you, I'm going to link everything in the show notes, but just in general, where can they find you? Yeah, you can just look me up Therapy Jeff on TikTok or Instagram or YouTube or Therapygev.com. I also have my own podcast called This Changes Everything. I do that with my friend, co-host, other therapists, Sarah. Yeah, I'm working on a book that will, but that's not coming out until next summer. So yeah. Fuck yeah.

Well, thank you again so much. And I'm so excited to hopefully we'll have to do this again soon and talk about more shit. Of course. Thanks. Of course.