The Sabrina Zohar Show - 42: Attachment styles in dating and navigating early dating securely with Dr Stan Tatkin!

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

On this weeks episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, Sabrina is joined by Dr Stan Tatkin of the Pact Institute to go over how each attachment style shows up in dating and how to navigate early dating securely! Get Dr Stans book HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course HERE! Get Ad-free episodes and 2 Bonus episodes a month HERE! Dont forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on instagram and Sabrina on Tik tok! Video now available on YOUTUBE!  Please support our sponsors! Want to shop Softwear? Get 20% off your first order with code- DOTHEWORK Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A.Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's the Family and Friends event at Shoppers Drug Mart. Get 20% off almost all regular priced merchandise. Two days only. Tuesday, April 28th and Wednesday, April 29th. Open your PC Optimum app to get your coupon. Have you ever had a moment where you think, man, someone should really do something about this? Then you realize maybe that someone is you.

Well, with the help of GoFundMe, you can change someone's life. You could start a GoFund me to help a friend pay for school, fund that new community space, or help a local kid finally get to that national competition. I've seen this myself. Last year, a friend of mine launched a go-fund me to help with medical bills after an unexpected surgery. It was incredible how fast the support rolled in. People want to help.

They just need a way to do it. And GoFundMe makes it easy. So do you have a dream, a person, or a cause in your life that could use some support? Don't wait for someone else to bring change. You can be the one who makes a difference. Go-Fund me is the person. the world's number one fundraising platform, trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com.

That's gofundme.com. Gofundme.com. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of Do the Work Podcast. My name is Sabrina Zohar, and I am your host. Guys, I'm so excited. Welcome and hello from my new home. Tech I and I moved into our new house together.

Oh my God, guys, I'm so excited. We are going to be decorating this place. And I'm actually super excited because doing decor has been a passion of mine. So I'm going to be posting tons on Instagram and TikTok of like how we decorate and the different stuff that we use and all the plants that we have. Just because I don't know, I like to share that stuff. So get ready for a lot of home stuff coming your way because it's exciting. But this week, guys, I'm super excited. We have Dr. Stan on.

Dr. Stan created the Pact Theory. And he is an author. He's got, he's just an amazing, amazing, amazing human being. And on this week's episode, we talk about attachment and dating all. of the attachment styles in dating and navigating early dating securely and how to be how to do that how to properly do that what does that even fucking mean and all of the things in between and we talk more about the pact theory and what dr stan has been working on for all of these years and i'm just so excited to share that with you guys and so just in a friendly PSA november night so we are coming right up next

week is my first live podcast event in l.a with masha and leo skepe we're doing a live panel it includes drinks and snacks and a swag bag. And yeah, I'm so fucking excited. So please, please, please share it with your friends. Assemble the group. Come on out. We've got, I think we've sold out 50% of the tickets already in less than a week. So if you're listening now, snack your tickets, send it to the group, get everybody together. And I just can't wait to fucking meet you guys. As always, everything will be in the show notes. If you want to work with me one-on-one or ask me a question, you know it'll always be there, tickets for the event. And of course, our amazing sponsor, Software, My Clothing Company, and Open, which is Minaj,

who was on the podcast episode 14. Open is my favorite meditation app ever and it's movement, meditation, breathwork all in one beautiful space. So please, please, please, don't forget to support your sponsors. And as always, please rate the show. Whatever platform you're on, if you're on Spotify, you just click the three dots, click that and press rate this show. And if you're on Apple, you scroll to the bottom, leave a review. It literally means the world to me. So I'm begging, please, please, please, just follow along on the socials, do the work podcast to Brina Dot Zohar and just like the show. And that is all I use. need from you babes. So without further ado, let's get right on into it. I stand. I'm so, so excited to

have you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Hey, Sabrina. Thank you for having me. Of course. Now, I like to kind of dive right in. For anybody, you know, I actually was introduced to you through my friend Masha and she really studies like IFS and nervous system and attachment theory. And so when she sent me your information, I was like, oh my God, finally somebody who is really advancing the science that we're in right now and understanding different tactics. But for the people who have no idea who you are or what the Pact theory is and what you've created, I would love for you to give us a little bit of insight about you and your studies and just more about things that you've discovered along the way before we kind of dive on in.

First, whenever I hear IFS, I think IBS. Valid. We have some kind of a bowel problem instead of family systems. Okay. Well, I What do you want to know about me? I started off as a musician And then I and I did a windy

Track through the psychology world As a you know, group psychotherapist Then an inpatient psychotherapist Then a director of a drug and alcohol program Then trained in personality disorders And then in my training in neuroscience and in particular infant brain development in brain development throughout the lifespan, I became interested in prevention, working with mother infant pairs.

And since that didn't really work out well because people weren't interested, it seems like, in prevention. And that's what I was interested in. I switched to adult pair bonding to couples, which has a lot in common with infant attachment. and haven't looked back since. That's awesome. My approach is a psychobiological approach, meaning the study of infant brain development, and it's a developmental approach looking at the mind, the body, and the interaction between both. And so this has been a work of studying partners.

closely using digital frame analysis as my research to get a sense of faces and movements, particularly micro movements, micro expressions, and tracking partners while under stress to get a sense of the human primate and its natural habitat with its partner. That's been the study over these decades. That's incredible. And I think so a lot of people that follow really have the anxiety. That's kind of the thing is like I was definitely the poster child of the anxious attachment group where it was like I never understood for years the correlation between things that I saw

in my childhood and things that I experienced understanding how my body reacted to things, understanding my nervous system and things like that. It was a completely new world. And realistically speaking, most of the therapist, you know, traditional therapy that I had spoken to didn't want to even touch it. I actually had to tell my therapist years ago about the fact that I kept having these visions, like meditations of me as a child and saying, why am I stuck? Like, what's happening there?

And so I'd actually love to know in your studies and things that you've understood. If we could start to kind of go back to the beginning and the basics of the attachment styles because I know that you have like there's the wave and the anchor and you have different ways of kind of looking at this. But I think for the average person, the number one question that we usually get is like, I don't understand like what are attachments? I had a great childhood. Where did this come from?

And then can I change this? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on your studies as you've looked into attachment theories and really those early developmental childhood years, how that impacts us. Okay. So attachment isn't a personality, right? It has some things in common with personality matters, right? But it is actually considered an adaptation to one's social emotional environment, right? that is your caregivers.

And so your caregivers are also organized around how they were raised. And a lot of this is a nervous system. A lot of this has to do with attachment. So let's ground it first. Attachment is the study of the infant and then child and adolescent and adults felt sense of safety and security with those upon. whom it or Ji depends, right? And think of it as like a culture. Does the culture focus on relationship primarily or does it focus on the self as being more important than relationship? So insecure's

focus more on the self than relationship. And that's one of the features of insecure attachment. either I need you to take care of me emotionally. I need you to be my puppy. I need you to be next to me. I like when you cling, except it bugs me and then it annoys me and then it frustrates me. And I alternately want you to be close to me and to regulate my emotional state. But then you're getting on my nerves because you're too clingy. You're too needy.

And then I'm distracted and I'm not available. That makes for an angry kid, right? who clings and becomes eventually anxious ambivalent, right, with all the travels. Or I focus on myself in my self-esteem, and I look primarily to performance and appearances, could be vanity, could be the way we look to the outside world. And you are, child, expected to support my self-esteem. And that could come in many different flavors. so that the relationship again is not the most important thing.

I like it so much when you're quiet and you're not a bother and you're in your room and you're taking care of yourself. I like independence. I don't like neediness. And so I tend to raise children that are more distant, more derogating or devaluing of attachment values and are avoidant, right? Now, that side of the spectrum, we call islands, are also anxious.

They just don't seem anxious. But if we were to do a blood and urine test on these children who look fine, we would find that they're actually more under stress than the anxious ambivalent. Believe it or not. So they're actually most anxious people. They have a lot of defenses against it. One of them is to be alone. I like it so well when you go away because I find you too stressful.

And I also expect that every time you want me, you don't want me, you need me. And I resent that. So I like being alone better. But if I really, really wanted to be alone all the time, I would. But I can't because I'm a human primate. And human primates are by nature more needy and more clingy than other animals. We herd together and we paribon in the herds. And so a lot of this is looking at our nature state.

And are we independent animals? No. We're independent, but we bond together by way of a biology called attachment, which is the glue that holds us together for better or worse. Sometimes it's worse, right? Yeah. You shouldn't be with this person, but I can't quit you for some reason. I think it's because I love you, but I don't know.

it's the attachment biology that keeps us together, right? And we confuse it for love, but it really is in love. I mean, we see this all the time, especially, I think most of the people that listen are dating. You know, like it's a lot of people that are struggling out there to date. And I think something that I would be curious because I know that you've talked about this before and I'd love to go into it more of like, you know, I hear this all the time. You know, I'm great in my career. I'm great with friends.

I'm great in everywhere else. But yet for some reason, when I date, it triggers me differently or, you know, I'm super successful in one area of my life, but I cannot get my shit together and I'm super anxious and wild blah blah when I date. I'd love to hear your thoughts on like, why is that a different trigger specifically about like romantic relationships? Very, very simple, Sabrina. When you pair bond with somebody, and I'm not trying to exclude people who are polyamorous, but but when you pair bond with somebody, you form what's called a primary attachment system. That is the, that is a relationship that is similar only to the earliest relationships with, let's say, the mother figure.

And so it has a long, long memory and a whole set of expectations that aren't there with friends or business partners and a lot of entitlements that go back to early attachment. So that's why it's one of the most difficult relationships on the planet, even more difficult than parent-child, because of the expectations. because of the memory that is being triggered all the time because then love relationship is a projective system. We're proxies. You and I are proxies for everyone else that came before us. And we're triggering each other, not purposely, just by being those proxies. We have a whole pool of memory that, and these are experiences that either made us feel great or feel terrible.

and that is read in facial expressions and movements and timing of speech and all these things that are nonverbal and verbal that we don't even realize are happening, but they are happening at lightning speeds. So that's why, you know, I say, I don't feel this way with my friends and everything. We'll marry one of them and see what happens. You will, there will be something there again. and again, it's because of the expectation and entitlements that are built in. And to answer your first question, yes, it is entirely possible to shift your attachment. I did. I know many people who do because it's relational, right?

It's not set in stone. It is a set of fears, a set of fears, real fears, of either abandonment, neglect, intrusion, engulfment. and I am so sensitive to that, that as soon as I get close to you and we start to feel like we're, you know, doing rock and roll, that's when I remember what it's like to depend on somebody. And a lot of it wasn't so good. So I defend myself, protect myself from those things I believe will happen. And that looks distinctly threatening to you. Yeah.

And that's why it continues. Okay. We get each other to do the thing that we're afraid will happen. And voila, that's repetition. Yeah, I was like, and then we start to get the self-fulfilling prophecies of like, I knew this was going to happen. It's like, well, I mean, yeah, I hate to say it. The writing was on the wall.

It's like this person was unavailable. They didn't know how to talk about emotions. They were really uncomfortable. And I find that most of the time when I talk to people direct like one-on-one, if I work with anybody, just to kind of help them with their dating world, it starts with a so you know talk to me about like what was your dynamics growing up like i i was in like i'm not villainizing your parents i just want to understand where did you learn this behavior because you didn't just wake up at 30 and say i don't trust anybody i can't trust any human

this person's going to hurt me i was like this doesn't just like come out of thin air and i usually get and i'd love to hear your thoughts on like how do you help people that have this issue of the like no i had a great childhood i can't remember anything or nothing ever happened even when i try to say like how did your parents interact were they able to support you were they able to tuned to your needs. Were they able to, you know, help in that way? But I'd love to hear your thoughts when you're working with people. How can somebody, if they're in that position of like, I can't remember anything. I don't really know what's going on. I can't figure out where this came from. What are things that people can do to start at the very least, try to understand where they

learned this behavior? Because I feel like it's almost this own kind of hell that you're stuck on this loop and you just don't know how to get off. And I'd love to give people like some actionable steps as opposed to just like talk about it and hope that it goes away. Well, you said this a couple of times. I had a perfect relationship, and then you add, I don't remember anything. Yeah. And that's because people in the distancing group, we might call them avoidance, we might call them islands, but people in the distancing group generally are organized around forgetting, right?

That is one of the defenses. And so I continue to pull out negative experiences. tend to whitewash my experiences and my memory to where I lack a lot of memories. So I say I have ideas about myself. I don't have real experiences and memories of myself with these people. And that's how we find out whether they're distancing. One of the ways is whether they have a really vibrant autobiographical memory, which is a memory of me in it. And we find that distancing folk tend to not have those memories. I have pictures of my mother doing this. I have pictures of my father doing this, movies, but I don't have a memory distinct one. And so I am a person who doesn't look

backward. I look forward. I don't want to think about the past. I'm conflict avoidant. And therefore, I tend to whitewash things because I have a strategy of fleeing, of running away and not engaging, particularly if it's going to cause me grief. And so that's not evil. That's just a normal adaptation to an entire family system that does that. And so we know that when someone says, oh, I had a perfect childhood, we're going to do some investigation because they will not be able to answer the questions that we ask when it comes to autobiographical memory.

Right? So that is why their disability. so to speak, is in their defense of forgetting and whitewashing and not wanting to look at the past, not wanting to really look hard at anything that is painful. So we might think of the avoidant people as also pain averse, grief averse, but we might say that also in the clinging group as well because they have their own version of avoidance. They are afraid of growing up. They're afraid of being an adult.

They're afraid of taking their power. They're afraid of doing what they're capable of doing. And they deny that because they were taught to stay little and dependent and to hold on to the relationship at all cost, which is not a good idea because you're supposed to make sure the relationship that you engage in is fair, just, and mutually sensitive and that it has parity. We are equal. You can't do that. I can't do that. Whereas the wave or the people and the clinging group tend to be more codependent, tend to be, I will take care of you in hopes.

You will do that in return and you don't. And I'm angry. But I also don't grab what I want, right? I wait for you to prove to me, Sabrina, do you love me? You didn't show me, you love me, you didn't sit next to me. I didn't tap on the seat to cue you, but never mind that. I'm always testing you, right? I'm always testing you.

I can't grab you, Sabrina, and say, look in my eyes. and tell me, I am the love of your life. I'm the one for you. Say that and convince me. Okay, that would be a command. I can't do that because I was never allowed to have those healthy self-entitlements. So I'm annoying to be around because I'm constantly testing, constantly negativistic, but the island is annoying because I'm not telling you much. Yep, nope, sure, I'm fine. I don't explain much. I tell you the least amount necessary. I hold my cards, close to my test, chest. I love secrets. I love compartmentalization. And I love it when you go away. So, so these two are not, are not exactly, you know, fun to be with. But I have to say for your

audience, if you're secure, you're still a pain in the ass. Yep. Because you're a human primate, folks. And human primates are by nature not great when they're not happy. Okay. So no free lunch. There's more to life than finding the perfect car. But finding the perfect car can help you get the most out of life. Like the SUV that handles everything from drop off to off-road, and the car that hulls groceries and hockey teams, or the van that's gone from just practical to practically family. Whatever you want, wherever you're going,

start your search at autotrater.ca. Canada's car marketplace. Well, I'm glad you said that because I think there's a such as con there's a big misconception here. I think when it comes to this this buzzword of attachment styles. Like my partner always says he's like stop using them like a horoscope. Like stop trying to analyze people. Strop Tina like self-identify. I get this all the time like, well, I'm anxious.

And I'm like explanation or excuse. Like I have anxiety, but I don't self-identify as an anxious person because there's more to me than just that. I have generational anxiety. I'm scared about a lot of things. But it's like that doesn't define who I am. and I think the avoidance, the island, they've gotten such a bad rep. I get it all the time of like, well, do they just not feel? They can just move on and not care.

And here I am, the anxious dying on a cross. And it's like, well, you're not the victim here. It's not like a woe as me, you know, anxious versus avoidant. And oh, if I don't find someone secure, well, then I'm worthless and all that. I'm like, my partner is very secure. But he also has his avoidant tendencies and he drives me fucking insane. Just like, I'm very secure, but I have my anxieties. and I need and I ask and we communicate.

And I was actually curious to hear kind of your thoughts on the current dating world. And like if you think what you've been hearing, you know, now more and more as it's developing with attachment styles, do you think it's like a buzzword that's helping or maybe harming people? Because I'm I'm kind of on the cusp of is this helping people with awarenesses or is it harming people putting them in a bucket and now they feel like there's something wrong with them because they're anxious, not understanding that like you can grow and evolve. Like you said, you changed your attachment style. So I'd kind of love to hear your thoughts on that.

Well, in general, when I wrote this, I just updated Wired for Love to the second edition because I was, I really learned a lot since I wrote that book in 2011. And I mentioned it also in the latest book in each other's care that part of the human dynamic or part of the, you know, built into the human DNA, among other things, is xenophobia. So we're creatures who are by nature racist, by nature, otherwise, right? We otherize that which we don't understand and that which we feel we can't manage handling. So we also are creatures that have to organize our world according to categorization. Unfortunately, you know, there's been a huge drift in nomenclature in the science world, medical world, the psychiatric world where a lot of these terms classifications that were meant for diagnostic purposes for treatment have been co-opted by the public as a cudgel to hit each other

over the head. So I hear, oh, codependent is now borderline, borderline personality disorder. Distancing people are all narcissists. And so the unfortunate thing is that everyone is forgetting that these are very specific ways of looking at what people suffer from so that a helper can help that person out. It was never meant to put a hat on and say, I'm Asperger's or I am a narcissist or whatever. People are difficult, full stop. There is nothing more difficult on this planet than a person, period. I don't care whether you're an island, anchor, wave, a duck, well, a doc, you would be a human, but, you know, introvert, extrovert. If you're a human being, you're difficult, and that is all of us. And so it would be nice. And I contributed to this,

which is why I have a section devoted to this in the New Wire for Love. I contributed to this whole thing by coming up with islands, anchors, and waves, because then people come to me going, oh, I'm an island, you know, well, we'll see. But the truth is, in order to be any of these things, you have to be deemed so by someone who is well-versed and knows how to understand what this is and diagnose it. But most people are not going to be as strong. as they think, right? We're going to be island-ish, wave-ish, right? So, for instance, you are very, very fast, and we would call you a hair as opposed to a tortoise, right? You're a fast processor. You talk very, very fast. Yeah, we could pair that into anxiety, but it's not necessarily anxiety.

You talk very, very fast. You think very, very fast. You're light on your feet. Great. just as somebody who talks very slow and measures their words isn't necessarily hiding anything and doesn't mean they're not as smart. They're just a little slower in the social emotional processing and in speech. That's it. So this categorization thing has gone a bit too far. I agree. And it would be nice if people just chilled out and realized that if, you know, you're both difficult, you're both a burden. You know, I take you as my burden. You take me as your burden. That's how vows should be. There is no easy person on the planet up front, up close for long periods. We're all high maintenance. And so that's what I'd like people to have a takeaway here.

I say this. My partner and I will say, I'm like, we are both needy, finicky bitches. Like both of us, we're like, we have a lot of needs. We're very finicky. But I'm like, but we get it. We understand my annoyances, they're dropping the bucket for him and vice versa. And I like to normalize that to be like, yeah, no, it's not like we are walking on like clouds and daisies and we never have any disagreements. And like the one thing we don't, we don't raise our voice. We don't scream. We don't use inappropriate language, but we communicate often. We tell each other our needs. We tell each other when something upsets us because like you said, we're human. We're annoying. We're nuanced. We're we have a lot of shit. And I was actually going to ask you when it comes to like a healthy and secure relationship,

what is a myth that you've seen that working with couples and really seeing what actually it takes to be in a really beautiful and healthy relationship? What's something that you in your studies have seen that needs to be debunked about that? Well, let me just start with a term interdependence. So you and I start a relationship as two equals, two autonomous, fully independent human beings coming together, hopefully, not just because of love and attraction, but terms and conditions, deal or no deal. So we have to co-create this thing called a relationship, which actually does not exist, except in our heads. It's a mythology. So it makes sense if it's a mythos that you and I are the

creators of it. And if we're not, then who is? Is it our family of origin? Is it Oprah? Is it something else we've read? What is it? But it is something and we better be on the same page with it or we will not get very far. We also have to think about do we want the same things? How are we going to protect each other from each other? Because love is definitely not enough. It's actually actually can be a problem. We have to come together based on a set of purpose, right? Why are we going to do this? Why do we exist? Do we tell each other everything? And if so, why? Why not if we don't? Right. And so all of that has to be nailed down because we're unreliable creatures. We are selfish, self-centered, aggressive, moody, fickle creatures. And so we have to be doing this sanely as we would put together a band, put together a dance

troop or a business or whatever. And that is what protects love. Okay, so that's one mythology, is that we can just get together and run on the fumes of the early attraction, which is basically drug fueled and expect to get along in the long run without violating each other's rights. That's impossible. Therefore, we have to constantly, you and I shape this thing called a relationship to our specs, our specs, right? Today, not what was today. And going forward, and we have to do it in a way that sets the bar higher than we ordinarily do,

which means like you said with you and your partner, we share things right away. Yay. That's a very, very important secure functioning principle. We share things right away. Why is that important? Because memory sucks. If we don't take care of things immediately,

we're going to fight over memory. And that's a fight we don't get out of and it will continue as we repeat, repeat, repeat. So you're already talking about secure functioning stuff. We're equals. What is interdependence? You and I have the same things to gain and the same things to lose. That's different than codependency, where you have something more to gain than I do, right?

No, we have the same things to gain and lose. We make sure we have parity. And we make up rules and regulations that hold us both to account. So what we do is we give each other permission to enforce the ability. agreements that you and I make with the explicit expectation that when enforced, the other person must cooperate. And that's how you run, that's how you run a relationship, a union and alliance. So that's that. The other mythology is that we get in fights over the topic. It's never the subject, money, time, mess, sex, or kids, those are stressors. So the topic, and this is found in my research,

the topic is never the problem. It's the manner in which you and I will interact when one or both of us is under stress. If we operate as a one-person system of me, my, I, and you, you, you, we will fight. We will fight every time. So an interdependent system is like a three-legged race. I have to take care of you and myself at the same time, or you will confuse me as adversarial. So it's a different game, a different orientation, and one that people who are in the military learn, cop car partners learn, people in business have to learn.

If we were an ice skating, you know, skating team, we would have to do that. That is what flattens the world. That is what dissolves differences. We have a common mission, a common purpose, and a common vision. And then we work together as totally different people. She knows. How? Did you blouse? No.

The Devil Wears Prada 2. He's the movie event 20 years in the making. Honestly, I can't with the secrets anymore, so I think we just, we should tell her. Will you two please spit it out already? Um, D... This Friday, be the first to experience it only in theaters. In light of the recent scandal, I'm here to restore your credibility.

Oh, because we're a team now. That's a nice story. The Devil Wears Prada 2 in Theaters Friday. I love that. And thank you for a clear. clarifying that because I think it's important. What I really am trying to do is like to debunk this whole like relationships are easy. And if it doesn't flow, then it's not right. And oh, if you have any issues, run. And it's like, I'm a business owner. I've got three businesses. You have the institute. You have,

you have your own things. You know what I'm about to say. Nothing is easy. That's, that takes like, it takes work. It takes investment. It takes mental bandwidth. It takes a lot of a lot of moving parts to make this happen. And I, I'm personally confused as to who created this fallacy. I'm like, is a Disney, who did this to us and fucked us up for life. But I think there's this whole, someone's going to come save you or it's going to be easy if it's not run away. And I think a lot of people that say that they're so ready for a relationship, but yet they keep going after the wrong guys.

I'm like, no, there's something under the hood there. It's not that you're just so ready for a relationship. You just can't seem to find somebody to have one with. To me, I'm always like, do you know what it actually takes to be in a secure, healthy relationship that includes growth, that includes the feeling fulfilled, that has your needs, met, has your partner's needs met, like both are equally so important. Like you said, the three legs. Like it's so important to take care of my needs, my partners needs and our needs as a couple and make sure that we're communicating through that. And so I'm glad we were able to, I think,

shed a reality for people that might be looking at this saying, I just, I just want a relationship. And I'm like, just because you want one doesn't necessarily mean you have the bandwidth for one or the tool set or it's kind of like that stupid saying I hate like if he wanted to, he would. Because I'm like, that just lacks so much nuance to understand. If it's just that I wanted something if I just didn't want to be anxious. Oh, could you imagine if it was just, oh, I just don't. Oh, I must not want it bad enough. But I did actually.

You mentioned something earlier. We skipped over, but I'd love to ask you about it. When we were talking about the diagnoses and I'm 100% with you, something I see often, it's like, everyone's a narcissist and I'm like, until you were raised by one or actually in a relationship with one, then you really understand like what that actually means. He's not just an asshole. This is like a personality disorder. But I think a lot of people, like myself included, about six years ago,

no, maybe like eight years ago. Went to a therapist, explained what I was going through just my high, high anxiety when it came to men and relationships and using my body. I think nowadays anyone would have heard would have been like, okay, you've just got trauma. We got to talk about it.

Let's kind of heal that stuff and move forward. I was diagnosed as borderline personality disorder and I was put on three kinds of medication and I was a zombie. I was numb to the world. I don't even remember half of my thoughts. And I think that with me let me know, okay, it is nothing to do with necessarily the diagnoses and that regard. It was that I was wrongly

diagnosed. But I think what a lot of people, I get this every day. Oh, no, I have obsession with this guy because I'm ADHD or I'm borderline personality disorder. And I'm like, wait, wait, I can't really speak to that, not a clinician, not trying to pretend to be, but I'd love your thoughts on that because it's like, are those valid excuses to use or is that kind of in the same realm of like, not really. The borderline personality disorder slash ADHD is an excuse for the reason why you're obsessed with a guy, can't put your phone down, hypersensitive, super anxious, and people like to do that. Well, this is just me. This is just me. And it's like, I'm struggling even with BBT, or BBT borderline personality disorder, even when I was diagnosed that, I still didn't

really understand how that was an excuse to stay the way I was, even though I don't think I did have that. but I was just curious your thoughts on, do you find that to be an excuse, or is there validity that if you have borderline personality disorder or ADHD, that you would function differently in dating with the way that you attach to people? All of these things, you know, this is the problem. All of these things are hazing the field and confusing people.

Yeah. Because in my world, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. what you are called, what you call yourself, or what somebody writes down on a piece of paper, we're built for relationship. And in adulthood, it is a bit performative in the sense, and like you were alluding to, it's pay to play, right? If a relationship isn't appropriately difficult in the sense that both people,

are supposed to pull the wrong weight, they're supposed to operate in a way that is fair and just and mutually sensitive, good for me and good for you at all times. The relationship won't last, right? That's just a fact. It doesn't matter whether you're traumatized, have a trauma history, unresolved, whether someone's deemed borderline, narcissistic, it doesn't matter. If you want to be a survival team, a team of two executives, two bosses, two generals, then you have to step up and out of your comfort zone and rise to the occasion because you both have a task, you both have a purpose, you both have a duty to others in the same way. No passengers allowed. You're both drivers. Not a lot of people are up to doing that. They don't want to do that. They like the idea,

but they don't have the will to step up and do that work. And yet that is the only thing, not the person, the relationship is the only thing that will sustain a union over time. There is no other thing, right? And so if we understand a union to be at bottom, a survival team, let's you and I make a series of packs between us, right? Agreement, social contracts. we're going to protect each other no matter what. We're going to have each other's backs at all times.

We're going to protect each other in public and private. You and I are going to be the top bosses. We run everything. We're in charge of everyone and everything, right, not as dictators, but responsible as leaders. We have to step up and we have to be to show that we're fit for the job. Otherwise, this isn't what we think it is and we're not safe, right? If you and I are coming together to do some of those things I just said, we're far ahead of the rest because we live in a world that does not care about us, that does not support us, that is indifferent, that is opportunistic, and that if the chips are down, we're left holding the bat. So only you and I can depend on each other. Our lives depend on it. It's mutually assured destruction, lest we mess with each other, right? That's the

attitude that I'm trying to promote. That's the attitude. It isn't a matter of whether you, whether I want you to do this or that. It's a matter of how good am I at getting you to do that. How expert am I, masterful am I at Sabrina to influence her, persuade her without using a stick or a whip. without using threat, guilt, or shame to get her to do what I want. I've invested on being a master at Sabrina. Sabrina is invested at being a master at Stan. And there we have a protection against the world and against the slings and arrows of life.

And if people don't think that matters, that matters a huge degree. So just on the survival level, We're not even getting to thriving yet, right? We have to be, we have to step up and do this with each other. Or we won't make it, period, full stop. And so that's what I've come to. It really isn't the person.

You're not looking for the perfect person. You're looking for the perfect relationship. And does this person seem to be willing and able to do that with me? Are they willing to play the game I want to play? And if not, not bye next, right? Until I find somebody who's willing to do the things that I want in a relationship and that they want in a relationship, right? It has to be both ways. Right.

So I think then we can dispense of the categorizations, right? Because they begin to not matter. Just like in the Foxhole doesn't matter who you are. Our lives depend on each other. We got to know each other. We've got to work together. Otherwise, we're toast. Yeah.

Right. That's the reality. And it's very hard to get that across to people in a very entitled culture, which, by the way, is at its peak in terms of narcissism. We're the, you know, it's kind of rich for people to call each other narcissists when we are at the height of narcissism in this society. Just take a look at social media, folks. Whether it's Verde, Roja, or the orange one. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk.

Habiniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. I'm glad you said that because I have this issue. So my whole thing is I'm like, I'm big on communication. Don't get me wrong. but I'm also big on when you date somebody, they don't owe you anything. And I think this entitlement of, well, I showed up for the date, I got ready, you owe me something.

You have to do something for me. And if I leave this date, I can't tell you many times. I'm like, just because you went on one date with somebody, that's an exploratory phase. They didn't know who you were. They now met you. That doesn't mean that they owe you an explanation after. They don't have to tell you, hey, by the way, I don't ever want to see you again. Thank you so much.

Would it be nice? Sure, that would be nice of this person to do so. But to me, I'm like, there's this entitlement of when I'm dating, this is owed to me. And I'm trying to peel that back of like, who said that that's owed to you? What does it mean just because somebody didn't say something to you? Why is that personal? Why does it have to be an attack now that that other person's an asshole, a narcissist, a this, that, and the other?

And to me, I'm like, does that just make you feel better so that you can stay in the same place that you're at and you don't have to take accountability for the fact that you feel this? Nobody made you feel this? that's kind of where I'm at right now with all the muddying of these terms and this and the other the entitlement and I'm really glad you said that because I started was starting to feel like I was crazy being like I don't understand why people are owed anything well a lot of that is the what Ivan Bose your men you know what I've been bozermaniannionage said is a revolving ledger the revolving door of unfairness and injustice starting from childhood um you know the injustices of our parents

becomes the world's burden because we want to make everyone pay for those injustices, which, by the way, creates a new injustice in that person, right? By my trying to play unfair, like you owe me something, I create an unfairness in you. In other words, the victim becomes the bully. And so that's a one-person system, by the way, that you're describing. I'm not interested in a team sport. I'm playing a solo sport or a dictator. where you do what I want. I don't have to look at what I do. But that's also, I want to say,

Sabrina, that's the human condition. What is it? What do we all do, naturally? I'm in pain. I don't know why I'm suffering. Oh, yeah, I just remember, it's you. Right. Our narratives always protect our own interests, period. Your interests are not there, my interest only. and I'm going to think that way, but I will not be able to win because I can't be a teammate. I can't work as a team, right? And so working as a team, think about this. You and I are a team. You say, I hurt you.

First thing I do is I say, I'm sorry, I did that. Not, no, I didn't. Right. You know, you say, you're yelling at me. I don't say, no, I'm not because, first of all, I don't know. what my voice is doing. And secondly, I'm not you. So if I want this relationship to work, I put the relationship before being right. That's a very hard thing to do. And a lot of people are not up to it, right? Not up to it. So when we're talking about secure functioning,

which is all I sell, we're talking about two people coming up always with what is the best or right thing we could do in the future with this particular system or in this particular matter, even though it will be the hardest thing to do. I do have a question for you on secure functioning because something that you have mentioned, I know you talk about, it's your job of the partner to regulate our nervous system. And like when you're, you know, kind of in that world. But my question would be, how does that affect early stages of dating? So like early stages of dating, you're constantly just regulated.

you know it's like I'm constantly pulling people off the ledge of like doesn't mean you have anxious attachments out you're a human you're anxious there's ambivalence like you just met this person it's normal to feel a little anxious but how can we i guess how can we incorporate that yeah i can give you a brain hack for that if you'd like please yeah if you're doing dating correctly it should not be ever a waste of your time because you're honing your people skills of observation yes and wired for dating i i i i i called it Sherlocking, that you go on a date and you are becoming much more fine-tune in picking up slightest cues. You're watching the other person. You're observing them. You're not sizing them up to make them look like they're, that they're being sized up, but you're interested. You're

watching how they move. What hand do they drink with, not just now. Where's their hair parted? How do they treat other people? How do they talk when you ask a question, so on? So you're Sherlocking, you're collecting information, which, by the way, feels very engaged to the other. Therefore, there is no wasted time because you are learning people. You are learning how to pay attention and you're relaxing your body while you're doing it. As long as your mind is occupied outwardly because you're spending all your time looking at detail, right? Detail in the face, detail in the eyes, detail in what they're wearing, detail and blood flow, all of those things, you don't have time to think about, oh, how am I doing?

Right. If you start doing that, start paying attention even more closely to details in the eyes. Look at the colors. Look at the specs. Look at the pupil size. All of that will keep you from being self-referential and keep you out of the anxiety and you'll learn something. So that's a brain hack if you want. Oh, I love it.

I was going to say to piggyback on that, kind of to like, because I love that we can put a pin up in this area. But if somebody, I get a lot of people that are, you know, they get super enamored by the person or they're like they're so burned out from dating and I just want to find my person. What advice would you have based on all of these things like that, what you just gave us that tip for the people that are out there that are super anxious that just like want to find their person and they're exhausted and they're burned out and they don't want to keep doing this and they feel like they're wasting their time. I know that I love that hack, but is there anything else that you would offer to anybody? that's kind of struggling in this world feeling like hopeless, like it's just not going to happen, that could maybe be the brain, something like that, that can we, we can actually start to rewire thoughts and maybe enjoy this a little bit more. If you want to be in a relationship that assumes that you're being pro-social,

but if you want to be in a relationship and all you care about is your panic and that, you know, that there's, it's a fire cell. That's not pro-social. That's pro-cell. That's doing exactly what we talked about. why would anybody care to be with you? You're showing signs that you couldn't care less about who you're with. So again, we're back to, if you really want to be in a relationship,

start with the time you're with somebody who you've just met. Start there. That shows you want to be in a relationship. Otherwise, you're not. You're that one person-oriented person who wants to do, who wants a relationship that's just in their head only. you don't want to share it experience. You don't really want to get to know anybody.

Right? And so I would change your attitude here. This is about friendship. This is about getting to know people. This is about really learning about people in a way that is more stealthy and that isn't so direct, that isn't so off-putting. That doesn't make it seem like you're the center of attention here. Yeah.

Make the other person the center of attention. and hopefully they're going to do the same with you, right? This is about relationship, and it starts with that date that turns out fungi, right? Yeah. Yeah, one shift I found that was a game changer for me was for a while. I was in that school of thought, like, no going to find anybody, blah, blah, blah. And when my dog passed away and I kind of, you know, grief will do that to you. All of a sudden your entire life changes and you're like, wait, I don't care about half the stuff I cared about.

Like, none of that matters anymore. or the one thing I cared about is gone. One shift I made was I, instead of looking at it as every moment of like, is this going to be my person? Is this going to be the one? I started looking at every moment of the day was exciting for me. Every moment of the day was anything can happen. At any second, I could get an email.

I could get a voice note. So I got excited. So when I met people and I met when I first met my partner, I wasn't into him. I wasn't like, oh, I didn't come home saying, mom, I met the one. I was like, it's okay. He was nice. And I said one thing that stuck out to me was I want a partner. I don't want someone that just fits me into their life.

He's like, I want to co-create with somebody and actually build a true partnership, which means calling me on my shit, us being vulnerable. He was like, I want that. I don't want you to just try to fit me in your life. And I remember leaving that thinking, okay, if I were in that old mindset, I would have walked away from him and been like, no, thanks. You don't fit the bill. I don't like you. But instead, I was actually focused on who he was and really watching who he was as a person

and saying, wait a minute, you have the qualities of the actual relationship I want, which means, okay, let me get to know. you as a person more to see if you then match that aspect. Good. That's the way to do it. And I would say nine's a winner with that one. You know, it's a good start. Yeah.

And also checking out to see whether he is who he says he is. Takes about a year to find out, actually. I was going to say, we're at the year. We've been through so much that now we're like, man, we've been through things that married couples. Like losing jobs, death, breaking, breaking a foot, moving in together, family issues. We're like, we've been, and we've never. been stronger and it's like, but that is if I was in my old, as my mom says, my stinking think,

and if I were there and I was allowing my narrative to create my future, I would never be in the relationship I'm in. And I've also never grown so much being in a relationship. When I was single, yes, you grow, but it's not until someone's triggering you constantly, or I have to stop and say, wait a minute, is this, is there a real threat? Is there actually something that bothered me? Or is this my narrative creating a threat and now I'm projecting it onto my partner and now we're just creating a distance between the two, which like you said earlier, that was where I had to stop and say, it's okay for me to admit, hey, I fucked up, that was me. I'm so sorry, you're right. I need to take ownership of that. That wasn't just you. And I like the Albert Ellis call out there

stinking thinking. Yeah, because my brother had a drug problem. My mom went through the program and she did all that. And I just, we've always, it's been such a big thing. And like my mom's, my mom has all these sayings. You were good before them. You'll be good after. You know, you have to love someone. You don't have to love yourself more than. You're than the need to be loved by other people. And all these little nuggets that created this mindset for me of, it might not have happened yet. That doesn't mean it's not going to.

And I think with dating, and that's why I love what you teach, it's like it's not about all the fluff. It's not about all that. It's about let's focus on the type of partnership that you actually want. And then the steps of how we can get there in a healthy and secure partnership. And so I do actually have one last question to ask you. Just because people ask me all the time and I'd love to ask your thoughts. So I know we have the island, which are the more avoidant.

We have the wave, more the anxious, and we have the anchor, which is more secure. What about the people that feel, I'm both or I'm dismissive or I push pull? Where do they, like, how do you kind of see them falling in if they're listening saying, I don't feel like I identify with either one of those? What's your thought on that? Like, I feel both slash that hot and cold push pull thing. Well, because we're all of those things, actually. Okay.

where all those things, all we have to do is be with someone who is really, really more clinging than we are and now we're distancing. Or be with somebody who's more distancing than we are and now we're clinging, right? That's why a lot of these models break down diatically because we're dealing with an intersubjective phenomenological system now that is reacting to itself. So it's harder to tell. The only way you can tell whether you're actually a cart-carrying wave or island, is that you're a one-trick pony.

You only do this thing. And you've only always done this thing. And there's a rigidity there and a lack of being able to understand one's own effect on the other as being a problem. Right. Then I'd say, okay, now you're this and now you're that. But a lot of people, most people might say are issue, right? We could say that people who are in the secure range. in other words, they're in that bucket, right, are going to move this way and that way and this way and that way,

depending on their state of mind, depending on, you know, the moon, but also on each other, right? And so that is a, that's a homeostatic system that is operating pretty well, as long as it's not way extreme, right? sees on. And so that speaks to, you know, pretty much in the middle there. Awesome. Cool. Thank you. Stan, this was amazing. Thank you so much for shedding so much wisdom. And I know I'm going to link everything in the show notes, but I know that you have in each other's care, which is your book. And then you obviously have the second edition of Wired for Love. But what was your other book for dating? I think that would be really helpful. I'm going to attach everything. Wire for dating. Wire for dating. Awesome. So also people should know. We're going to be

be doing my wife and I are going to do another five-star retreat this time in Portugal, Porto, Portugal next year, and people can go to the pactinstitute.com, P-A-C-T, you see it behind me, pactinstitute.com. And there you can find if you're a clinician training, or if you're a couple, we do workshops all the time online, and then we're doing this fabulous retreat. Amazing. And I'll link everything so that people can find you. I'll put your Instagram. and if anybody ever wants to work with you, they can find you there, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome. Thanks, Dan. I really appreciate it. You're delightful.